That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Episode Date: March 28, 2022

In this episode Gaby chats with doctor, author, presenter and podcaster Dr Rangan Chatterjee. He talks passionately about spreading and promoting a healthy life, both physically and mentally. They talk about his podcast 'Feel Better, Live More' in which leading health experts offer easy health life-hacks, expert advice and give you the tools to revolutionise how you eat, sleep, move and relax. They also discuss his most recent book 'Happy Mind, Happy Life', and he shares more ways on how you can support our own mental wellbeing and cultivate core happiness. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to that Gabby Rosen podcast, part of the Acast Creator Network. Dr. Rungan Chatterjee joins me this week and he is such a passionate man. He believes in spreading and promoting a healthy life, both physically and mentally. He listens, he learns and he talks and I could have talked to him all day long. He's been in practice now for over 20 years and is one of life's helpers. He knows that every person is different. He doesn't breach, but one way is the only way. only way. I love listening to his podcast, Feel Better, Live More, and I have all of his books,

including the most recent Happy Mind, Happy Life. He surprises me by sharing who he'd like in his dream backing band, and it may include Lenny Kravitz and Chris Martin, but you'll have to listen to find out more. Please, can I ask you a favor? Would you mind following and subscribing, please, by clicking the follow or subscribe button. This is completely and utterly free, by the way, and you can also rate and review on Apple Podcasts, which is the purple app on your iPhone or iPad. Simply scroll down to the bottom of all of the episodes. I know there have been quite a few now. And you'll see the stars where you can tap and rate and also please write a review.

Thank you so much. And you know what? I've now got a fruit bowl full of kiwi fruits, thanks to you. It's out from last week's podcast. Yeah, it was so fascinating. I mean, I know, obviously, this is your passion, and we're going to be talking about your books and about health and about food

and about, obviously, your new book, Happy Mind, Happy Life. But listening to your podcast as well, which is such a big part of your life, I learned so much. And it's my passion, health, as you know. We could both sit here and talk, Simprove for hours.

They'd be very happy. But I didn't know that about Kiwi fruit. Yeah, I mean, I think the reason I invited Dr. Lee onto the podcast was, you know, this idea of food as medicine or food being medicine, something that I completely subscribe to, but actually it's become a little bit controversial. There's quite a few healthcare professionals now who don't think we should be thinking about food as medicine. They say there's medicine and there's food. Food has got lots of benefits, but it's not medicine. And, you know, I respect everyone's right to have their view and their perspective.

my perspective is that food should be considered medicine. For the reason, well, there's a couple of reasons really. The definition of medicine is, or one of the definitions I should say, is something that helps treat or prevent disease. I think food absolutely fulfills that criteria. I think culturally, many cultures like my own, and there's many cultures around the world who consider food to be medicinal. and, you know, like I grew up in an Indian family, and, you know, if, you know, we'd have a cold

or a cough or something, you know, mum would put extra turmeric in the food or, you know, she'd make me a hot drink with lots of cut ginger and turmeric. So we grow up with this kind of idea that actually food can help us heal. And Dr. Lee is just brilliant in terms of the science, in terms of the research he is doing on how we can use food as medicine. So, you know, I was really passionate to get him on and just show people, hey, look, the food that you eat absolutely plays a role in your short-term health, the way you feel day-to-day, but also your long-term risk of getting sick. And yeah, it's just something I'm very, very keen to promote. But also that hand in hand with, you know, having to go, you know, it's the thing about somebody

says, oh, no, but you can't take food to cure you of cancer. No, of course you can't. And the most amazing advances in medicine means that we are, you know, doctors, nurses, all of these healthcare practitioners, they absolutely do a vital job. But eating well and caring for yourself and caring for your mind are all part of that as well, hand in hand, aren't they? Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's kind of the state of the world, Gabby, that we have to even say, is food medicine or is it not medicine?

It's like, well, does it really matter? Like if I'm trying to get a patient better, I want a big toolbox. I want to use, you know, whatever the most appropriate thing is for that patient. Sometimes it's drugs, sometimes it's lifestyle. Sometimes it's a combination of both. So I don't feel we really need to have, I think what's an artificial debate about food's role. I think all of us agree that food is very important. Food plays all kinds of roles in our life, including, you know, culturally, it gives us pleasure.

it gives us joy. And I think sometimes when we talk about food from a health perspective, we sometimes forget about that. And, you know, yeah, but as you say, absolutely, it's not one or the other. It's like, how can we use it? You know, how can all of us use it to help promote health and well-being? And it's not just about health and well-being. It goes beyond that. You know, it helps you with your mood. It helps you be happier. There's many different components to food. And yes, that conversation with William Lee was, you know, about one specific role of food. What does it do to our cells? How can it help reduce inflammation? How can it help our gut microbiome? How can it help, you know, the formation or the kind of reduction of cancer cells, which is really interesting

and what he said about that, I thought. But it's just about broadening that conversation, isn't it really? I know you know Dale Pinnock as well. And for all of these people and all of you who really know your stuff, I think we've got to listen, actually. It's about being open and listening. It doesn't mean you're saying, you're not a preacher wrong, and you've never preached. You've never said, this way is the only way. You listen. I mean, you do a podcast where you listen. To me, it's always about listen. We'll have those conversations. Hopefully you'll learn some stuff and you'll take some stuff away. But you're not saying that you're the guru and everything I say and everyone I meet is this is the way we have to go. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Gabby.

You know, I've been practicing now for over 20 years, right? So I've seen tens of thousands of patients. And one of the things I've learned is that every single person is different. People have got different beliefs, different ethics, different cultural ideas around health, different lifestyles, different pressures. So I've learned that there is no one way that works for everyone. You know, in my experience, that simply is not the case. And I'm not. I'm a lot of the case. I've also learnt that people don't respond well to being told what to do. I don't think I respond well to being told what to do. I don't think people do. I've never told a patient of mine. This surprises people. I've never told a patient of mine. You have to give up smoking.

If they come in to see me and they ask me, what is the impact smoking is having on their health? Yeah, I'll give them an honest answer. I'll tell them what I think it's doing and why giving up or reducing how much they smoke is likely to help them. But if they've understood everything that I've said, and they then say to me, hey, Dr. Chatsy, I hear you. I understand what you're saying. I understand the risks. But I get so much pleasure and joy out of smoking that I'm prepared to put up with those risks.

I don't feel as a fellow human being my job is to tell them what to do. Like they have the right to make that decision. So now I actually happen to, I think, get really good compliance with my patients. And I think that's because I don't talk down to them. I see them as partners. I see them as, you know, companions in this journey towards health and happiness. And I share what I think is going to be helpful for them. But I want them to be empowered. You've heard me say this on my podcast, I want people to be the architects of their own health and happiness. That's my goal is to share information, inspire people. So they make changes,

like because they want to, not because they're being told to do it. And certainly that's the approach I've found to be most useful with my patients. Well, it certainly works. Did you, when you were learning, is this right, you learnt four instruments as a child? I did. You've done your research, cabby. I don't know where that is in the public domain, actually. But yes, I used to play four instruments. That is absolutely correct. What were they? What were the four? So piano, I started when I was four years old. I think guitar, when I was about seven, drums, when I was eight or nine, and then clarinet. So yeah, music's a huge part of my life. And for many years, I was juggling those four.

four instruments. But yeah, where did you read that? I didn't know that was out there. Well, all sorts of places. So, so you play the instruments. You're on Radio 2. You've got your podcast. You're going on tour. You're so rock and roll. Did you ever, when you were that child learning all of that, did you see yourself, I mean, your your late father was a doctor? Did you see yourself being well known? I'm going to use that word. You're famous. Whatever word you want to use. Did you ever see that in your future? You know, I don't think I did. You just mentioned music. And one thing mum always says to me is that, you know, I used to love Top of the Pops and, you know, I'd walk around the house. I can't remember with what, but when I six or seven,

just, you know, basically harassing my mum's hair, I want to play guitar. I want to play guitar. I want it to be like one of those people on telly, playing guitar, singing. So I guess that part of me has always been there. Did I think I'd be doing what I'm doing now? Absolutely not. I don't think, I don't think, you know, what do you know as a child anyway about your future? You know, do you really know what's, what adult life is like or what are you going to be like when you're older? But, for honest, I don't think so. But, you know, one thing I've realized over the past years is that, you know, I like being on stage. So I have performed in bands for years. I very much enjoy being on stage and performing. But, you know, when I do go on tour, when I've done

book tours before or, you know, this April and May when I'm going on the roads for a sort of mini UK tour, I love connecting with people. I love, you know, we're doing this over Zoom. That's great. It's wonderful that we can do that. But of course, I'd much rather be in a room with you seeing your eyes, seeing your facial expressions, getting your energy and your vibe, rather than, you know, through an internet connection. And so I'm looking forward to being on stage and actually seeing people's eyes, seeing how they're responding to the content in my latest book, how, you know, what's connecting, what's not. So I don't think I knew it was going to happen, but I've got to say I'm really very happy and content these days with the state of my career.

Like I feel, you know, I mentioned performing. I feel for much of my life, Gabby, that I, you know, I probably didn't feel good enough in who I was. I was basically a people pleaser, do lots of things for other people so that you would feel liked and loved. And since Dad died in 2013, I've been on quite a long journey of inner growth. And I really don't have those tendencies anymore. I feel very calm and content and secure in who I am in a way that I didn't, even four or five years ago. And it feels really good because you mentioned success. You mentioned, you know, whatever, you know, that I am well-known. but that stuff doesn't make me happy. I think it's a myth.

We think that stuff's going to make us happy, but I really don't think it does. And I think we get many people, I think, feel quite discontented when they get those things that they thought would make them happy and then they realize actually there's still a hole underneath that hasn't been filled by this external success. So for me personally, since I shifted and going on this inner journey to figure out where my insecurities come from, why I was the people pleaser for so long,

you know, what was my programming in childhood that led to me being a certain way? Once I've gone in and unpick that and really processed a lot of that, I actually feel really, really good these days. And, you know, you start off talking about food. Food is important. But actually, I'm coming to the view that actually our mental well-being, how we think about the world, how we think about other people, whether we let the actions of others affect us or not, I think arguably that stuff may be more important than food. That's very interesting. I don't want to do any spoilers of people who haven't seen it,

but I don't know if you've seen Afterlife, the final season of Afterlife. I've only seen a few episodes in the first one, actually. I'd love to get back into it. Okay, watch it and wait for the finale of Season 3. And I'm not giving anything away, but by saying that what's so astonishing is that one of the, you know, you have one of the leading podcasts in UK and in Europe. You have bestselling, times bestselling books.

You've got a new one out. You've got, you're on television. You know all sorts of extraordinary wonderful people. And yet you and Chris Evans and Fern and hopefully me, we all try and put out that we have got to, appreciate those moments. We have to appreciate where we are. Now, it's not any of us saying, right, you have to be happy. You have to feel joy. You have to feel good about life. But it's about gratitude and appreciating those moments and about being kind. And I'm going to

go back to the possible cliche, although I don't think it's a cliche, of the kindness and looking after yourself and looking after others is so important. We are so lucky. We are so lucky. Yeah, it really is. What does the Dalai Lama say? If you want other people to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion. I mean, it's all about compassion being kind. You know, this is probably one of the most underrated things for our health and happiness. You know, we think, yeah, well, you know, I'm not have time to say to be kind. I've got to get busy. You've got to get these emails done. You know, that person shouldn't have cut me up in the roads, you know, oh, they shouldn't have sent me their email like that, you know, I'm going to make them pay. You know, this stuff is toxic, right? We can't see it in the same way that we can see the food on our plates. But we absorb that psychological stress. It changes our physiology in our body and it predisposes us to ill health and disease. Being kind is so, so underrated. And, you know, one of one, for people who are struggling sometimes to be kind, would it be okay if I share a tip that's really,

Will you help me, Gabby? Please, please, please. Yeah, there's a whole chapter on this in my new book. It's called Seek-out Friction. And it's basically this idea that you can use any bit of social friction in your life as a learning point for yourself. So let's say somebody sends you an email that you don't like. You think they're tones off and they shouldn't have sent it like that. Okay, it's easy to get frustrated.

Or you could take a pause and you can train yourself to do this and go, okay, why is that email triggering me. Why is it that that bothers me? What is it bringing up inside me? Because what you do then is you bring an element of control to your life. If you feel that actually you can only be happy when the emails come in nicely and no one cuts you up on the road and everyone's kind and compassionate to you when you're out and about, actually that's a pretty fragile place to be because it means if you don't get those things, which you cannot control, then actually you're going to end up being unhappy a lot of the time. And so what you can do in that instance is think about this phrase. If I was that person, I'd be doing exactly the same thing. Now, you need to think about that for a

moment. But if I was that person with their life, with their childhood experiences, with their parents, with their current lifestyle, with their work colleagues, with their social media feeds, I would be thinking exactly the same as them and I'd be doing exactly the same as them. And what that emotion does is it breeds compassion because straight away you're trying to be empathetic,

you're thinking, okay, what's going on? Maybe their time, maybe their daughter was up all night with a sore ear. Maybe, you know, they had a tough upbringing. And yes, they shouldn't have, you know, maybe you would have preferred it that they sent a different tone

a female, but maybe that's all they could do in that moment. Maybe they had 10 emails that were quickly trying to fire off. Whatever it is, and in many ways the story doesn't matter. The truth doesn't matter. What matters if you want to be happy is that you get to choose that happiness story, right? That's the key. That's something I've learned so much. I don't know if you ever heard the conversation I had with Edith Eager on my podcast. She, 93-year-old lady, one of the most profound conversations I've ever had. She was 93 when we had it. She went to Auschwitz when she was 16 years old, Gabby. Like 16 years old.

She was getting ready to go out for a date with her boyfriend that night. And there was a knock on the door. Her and her sister and her parents got put in the train to Auschwitz. Her parents got murdered. Sort of within a couple of hours of getting there. And she had to dance for one of the guards there. And she said to me, she said, wrong, and listen. I never forget what my mum told me.

Edith, no one can take from you what you put inside your mind. And when she was dancing, she danced. She imagined it ahead that she was in, I think, Budapest Opera House. She wasn't dancing in Auschwitz. In her mind, she was dancing with an orchestra behind her, with a full house in Budapest Opera House. And when you hear people like Edith Eager or Victor Frankel talking about, in the most extreme and adverse situations any of us could find ourselves in,

when they show you that actually you get to choose the story that you put inside your minds, it's really humbling. You think, God, in my day-to-day life, is anything really as bad as that? Do you know what I mean? It really puts some perspective on it, I think. I have to say, honestly, the tears are streaming my face because that's one of the most incredible podcasts. I remember it very well, very, very well indeed.

So if people haven't listened to it, I urge you to go and have a listen. What's so interesting is that the one chapter that you pulled out of your book, the one before that fascinates me, make time stand still. Now, this is something I always say I'm 33 again, not because I lie about my age. I don't really care if anyone knows my age, but I love life. I don't really want time to stand still, but I want it to stand still.

I want to be able to jump and be happy and to spread happiness every single second of the day. I don't want it to stand still, but I do want it to stand still. So I'm torn over this chapter. Make time stand still. Yeah, the idea is simply to say, look, we think we don't have enough time to do the things that we love. Right, many of us think we don't. We want more time. I don't have time to do this. I have time to do that. And of course, I totally understand. Some people lead really pressured lives that, you know, they're working two jobs to make ends. I understand that. But a lot of us have more time than we think. Right. We really do. And we fritter away time. If you measure an hour of time, let's say, 30 years ago, you know, in the evening you had an hour between seven and eight. Okay, this is a bit of

stereotypical, but what might we've done 30 years ago? Well, there was only three TV channels or four to choose from. We'd probably, you know, we might, you know, sit down with family or a partner and watch something. We might do a spot of ironing. We might listen to the radio. We might play cards with someone. You know, we didn't have the endless choice that we had today, whereas you can imagine a scenario now where you sit down at 7 o'clock. You have an hour. You have a quick flick on Insta, you get a WhatsApp message, you know, Yodel says, oh, you've got a parcel tomorrow, you're going to be in, or do you want to put it in a safe place? And you just, you know, then you go and watch a bit of telly, you go back, you know, that one hour can be absolutely fritted

away and fragmented into nothing meaningful at all because of all this distraction. And that chat to make time stand still is really to say to people, look, we talk about health, we about happiness and we immediately think about things like food and movement, right? You know, and I'm passionate about that stuff. But we forget that time, you know, we can have different perceptions of time depending on what we're doing. So one hour watching paint dry, it's going to feel like a pretty long time. One hour chatting with your best mate over a cup of coffee face to face. Now that one hour, you suddenly have a different experience off that same amount of time. So it's really to help people understand that actually what are those things that you do

in your life where time does seem to stop? And it's typically the things that we really enjoy. It's typically things that we find a little bit challenging. So not so challenging that we can't do it. And it's off-putting because it's that hard. Just a little bit challenging where we have to be fully immersed. And this is what we call flow state. Everyone knows that feeling of flow when you're just lost in the moment. And Flow has got these key, it's got six key components, right, which I think people will recognise in their own life. Component one, complete concentration on the task in hand.

Number two, our sense of self decreases. So our ego is quietened right down. Number three, our perception of time changes. Number four, that sense of anxious struggle disappears. Number five, our sense of control increases. And number six is that task becomes a pleasurable experience in and off itself. So what is that? It could be playing your guitar.

It could be singing in the kitchen with a, you know, with the tunes blasting. You know, I've seen some of your Insta videos, Gabby, you like to have a dance with the tunes on, right? Yep. That could be flows. It could be doing a puzzle. It could be playing cards. It could, you know, whatever it is, it could be putting up a shelf. Right.

But when we think about health and happiness, we're not thinking about these things. But they really, really help us. And, you know, what does it do? It's like a drug-induced experience, right? Your brain's a chemical factory. And part of the reason that we feel so good in that flow state is that there's about five or six of the most pleasurable chemicals that we can release in our brain get released at the same time, right?

Things like norrapinephrine and endermined. endorphins, serotonin, all kinds of hormones, sorry, chemicals get released when you're in flow state. So all I'm trying to do in that chapter is say, look, even if it's just twice a week for 15 minutes, can you do something when time stands still? Because if you do, you're going to feel more content. You're going to feel calmer. You're going to feel happier. And that's also going to help you feel healthier. I couldn't agree with more with what you say. I'm trying to know whether your two kids are like this. Are they the most content kids who don't go on their phones and don't have any issues? I mean, I have this sort of a picture of you and your wife and the

kids all walking around in this very sort of zen-like calm state. I think my wife is listening to this now. She will be laughing her head off and shaking head. No, that is absolutely not the way that it goes down. We're going to technology. you know, we don't really have a problem with that. And the reason is, and look, when I'm talking about children, when I'm talking about parenting, I always want to say, right, I think all parents are doing the best that they can. Everyone's trying to make the best decisions. Everyone's got different lives and different lifestyle. So me sharing what I do is in no way meant to be a judgment on other people in terms of what they do. I think it's so important for me to try and make that clear because people do

get triggered when we're talking about children and parents. But I personally am very concerned with bringing in tech too early into our kids' lives. You know, that is skewed very much. I've spoken to a lot of these, you know, top scientists around addiction and technology on my podcast. And I've, you know, learned firsthand what is going on and just how hard it is to resist. So we've been pretty good with the kids, good in the sense that it's not something that plays a huge part of our home life. But that came from my wife and I. Right? Because I think a lot of, one thing I've learned in Paris and Gabby, one of the biggest things I've learned is that kids don't, kids don't do what you tell them to do. They do what they see you doing. Yes. And so we very much had to go, well, look, if I'm going

to ask my kids not to be on tech much, well, I kind of, I've got to make sure that, I've got to make sure that, when I'm around then, I'm not on tech much, not on my phone much. So, you know, I've had to really look at my own behaviour a little bit and change that. But no, we're like any busy family. You know, there are trials and tribulations all the time. We don't get things perfect. I don't think any parent does. There's countless things I think, I could have done that better. Or did I snap then? Well, I tell you one thing I do do that I don't think was how I was brought up. I give my wife a huge amount of credit for this. I think she's really taught me and shown me, oh, she's taught me so much actually. But this one thing, like if I mess up with the kids, I'll apologise and I will own my mistake.

I don't think my parents did that with me. I love my parents. I'm not, I'm not criticizing them. I get that. I get that. Yeah. But it's something I really try and do. It's just so, hey, look, I'm really sorry. I could have said that slightly differently. I did snap. The reason I snapped was, you know, A, B and C, but nonetheless, I shouldn't have done that, so I'm really sorry. And I feel that that's important, so they know actually, Daddy's not perfect. You know, Daddy makes mistakes. We all make mistakes. And I think I probably put my parents on a pedestal, possibly for far too long. And, you know, if you think they're perfect and you then in your own way, you think that I have to be perfect as well. But we're all, I guess, perfectly imperfect.

doing the best that we can, aren't we? Yes. I think there's no such thing as perfect. We're just having a good try. We're all trying. We're all definitely trying. I mean, so your book, and it just, it's spot on, and it's what we all need at the moment, this new book.

As you know, I've got all of your books, in fact. I do sound like a... Well, you know I have, because I think I've chatted to you about each and every one of them. You have, and I'm so grateful that you like them, Gabby. I really do. But happy mind, happy life. there's a very interesting thing that I want to talk to you about success and defining what success is.

Because a lot of young people today, you know, you say to somebody, what do you want to do this? And they'll say, oh, I just want to be successful at whatever I do. What is it you want to do? Oh, I don't know. And you do hear kids saying, I want to be famous. I want to be rich. I want or I want to be like my parents or I don't want to be like my parents, whatever it may be. okay, but they say I want to be a success. And I'm fascinated by how people perceive success. And that's, you tackle that in this book. Yeah, I think one of the biggest problems I would say in society, and I think it's getting worse, is we confuse success and happiness. Now, I think those two things can be the same, but they're not always. So success as, it's often defined.

to us by the world around us is more followers, more money, a better job, a better phone, a nicer car, a nicer holiday. You know, when we get those things, we will have been successful and then by default, we'll also be happy. But so many people, they bust a gut to get to that point. They, you know, trash their relationships. They're unable to nourish the people that are close to them. They aren't able to nourish themselves. They're working so hard to get. get society's idea of success. And then they get there, they realize, oh, oh, I, you know, I still feel crap inside. That didn't fill the hole in the heart that I had. And, you know, Piper Grange, who, she's a wonderful friend now, and she used to be the psychologist of the

England football team when Gareth Southgate took over. And she was widely credited in the press at being a huge influence and changing the culture in the team. And she came, to the podcast, to my show, and we had a long, long chat. And she has this concept called Winning Shallow and Winning Deep. And it's brilliant. And she basically talks about the amount of top, top sports people who, you know, they win the FAC up. Or they get on the England team and get to the semi-final. And they see it, it's like, you know, I feel worthless inside.

Like, literally they pick up the medal. And as they're walking down the stairs, they start to feel crappy. about themselves and afterwards they go into a real low. Right. So this is what she calls winning shallow. So how are you going to win in life? You're going to win shallow, you're going to win deep. And that's often because they thought that that success would make them happy. But they realize actually that actually it's a nice thing to have, but it doesn't necessarily make me happy. And I think the way out of this are people, and it's hard, right, because people might listen and go, it's all right, you two talking about this. Gabby,

you're a successful presenter on telly and radio. You've been in the public eye for years. You're doing really well. They might say, oh, Rangan, you know, what are you talking about? It's all very well for you to talk about this stuff. You know, you must be doing all right for yourself. You, you know, write these bestselling books. You've got a big show. And they might think that. And I totally understand that. I understand them thinking, yeah, it's all right for you. But the truth is, is that I've seen this over and over again with my patients at all income levels that often, people come in to see me, these aren't problems that need a pill. These are lifestyle related problems. A lot of them come from our kind of relentless pursuit of what we think success is. They're trying

to earn more. They're trying to get that promotion. They're trying to do all that. And in the meantime, they're eroding the little things in life that actually truly make them happy. So it can be very, very challenging. But the way out to it, there's in Chats 1, there's lots of simple exercises that people can do. to help them sort of redefine success, really figure out what success looks like for them. And I think a big thing for people to do is to start off with something I call the identity menu. And it's basically trying to figure out what are your core values. Right. So in the book, there's a list of about, I think, 15 or 20 values.

And it's not an exhaustive list. But say, what are three things that you feel really represent who you are? And so for me, the three are integrity, compassion, and curiosity. And now that I know that, I can bring those values to every aspect of my life. Right. So if I bring those things to every aspect of my life, I am being successful, whether it's society's definition of success or not. And the other thing to say here, people think, yeah, you need money.

Okay. And of course, you do need some money. And where that limit is, it's really interesting. The research seems to suggest that once you have your basic needs met, so you can afford to have a roof over your head, you can afford to buy food and you've got enough to sort of have that feeling of safety when you're at home, most of the research points to more money after that point doesn't make us happier. Some people will contend that, you know, we'll sort of challenge that, I'm sure. But the way I look at it is that I think money doesn't bring happiness

in and off itself, but I think money can remove common sources of unhappiness. You know, and I want to be sensitive to people, but, you know, this book is very much about putting you in control and saying, actually, you know what, even if the world around me is not the way I currently want, I can make certain choices that are going to make me feel healthier, they're going to make me feel happier, they're going to make me feel more in control. and I think that's going to lead to a lot more peace and contentment. It's very interesting. Two things I just want to pick up there. I remember sitting next to a multi-billionaire at a charity event.

And he just turned around to me. We were chatting about all sorts of things. And he just turned to me at one point in the meal and just said, I just need to tell you something. I'm not happy. And money doesn't make happiness. And if I can pay all the bills, then that is content. but after that I haven't been happy for years.

And we talked, and it's not, I'm not going to say who this person was, and we talked and we're still in touch. And he gives vast amounts away to charity. And he says that brings him happiness. But I'm fascinated by happiness, again, on another thing that I want to bring up, is for years and years and years,

and I'm lucky, 35 years I've been in this industry. And my mum died 25 years ago. And up until then, I was always saying to people, I'm so, I'm happy, I'm happy. They always used to say, oh, you're not really that happy. So I used to say, I'm so sorry. Yes, I'm sorry I'm happy. When mum died, I realized I would never apologize once more for saying, I'm happy. And so if, you know, without fail, a journalist will always say to me, oh, you're always so happy. And I just say, yes, I am. And it's very interesting. It's instead of apologising for having joy,

instead of apologising. And I think a lot, and I'm using myself as an example, but a lot of people, we apologize too quickly for the little things. When the big things we have to apologize for, as you said, with your kids and all of that, that's very different. But I'm not apologising for enjoying life and for living in that moment and for looking at the sky and for jumping for a moment because it brings me joy and for talking to somebody because it brings me joy. I'm never going to apologize again, but yet we feel that we have to. Yeah, again, it's a, you know, thanks for sharing that, Gabby, very, very powerful. I think that's again, comes down to this societal expectation, particularly in Britain, I think, we sort of feel, we can't say that because it's sort of rubbing

the other person's nose in it if actually we're happy and they're not, but it's really not. If we think about it, you being happy can only make somebody else feel bad if they've got their own inner insecurities. That's one thing I have learnt over and over again. I am not responsible for other people's feelings. Nobody else is responsible for my feelings. I own them. Well, I take responsibility for them. If you saying you're happy makes someone around you feel bad, I'm not saying we shouldn't be sensitive. Oh, completely. Oh, absolutely. We should be sensitive. But if that person's feeling bad, that's because that's triggering something inside them. That ultimately, if they want to, true freedom is actually they have to figure out what that is and go on that journey to

figure out, why is it triggering me? Why is it pissing me off that Gabby's happy and my life is tough? Why do I feel I need to say, oh, all right for you? You know, these sort of common phrase is actually, well, you know, yeah, it is all right for you. It's great for you. And actually, maybe, if I was the one talking to Gabby, maybe I should be, hey, Gabby, that's great. I'm so happy, happy. What is it, you know, is there anything that you can share with me about why you feel so happy? You know, what can I learn from you that you're happy and I'm not? So we could go really, really deep here, Gabby. But I mean, the other thing I wanted to sort of say,

you mentioned your mother's death. And, you know, it brings up that wider point that I often think about humans, because it was my dad's death nine years ago, almost nine years ago, that triggered my voyage of self-discovery. And I wonder, you know, do we have to go through that adversity as humans?

Do we have to face those hard times before we truly realize what matters? You know, can we sit here and have a conversation about, you know, success isn't this, right? That doesn't make you happy. It's nice to have, but it's not happiness. But do some people ultimately just have to go through it, you know, get on that treadmill, you know, overwork,

get close to burnout and then realize, oh, you know what, this isn't making us happy. I hope not. I really, I'd like to think we don't. But sometimes I think some of us do, I think. Well, I mean, I think, you know, I was that child that was Pollyanna. I was the, the, I just, I'd make up wonderful, fabulous stories. I'd be, you know, all of that. I was a happy child.

I'm very lucky. But I just, for simple things. I, you know, for all of that, all of those simple things. think that the past couple of years going through the pandemic, a lot of people have gone through the most horrific time of their lives. There's no denying it. But also, we all use the word kind. We're going back to that word again. But we also appreciated the little things. And I think we were less judgmental. I think it's coming back, sadly. But all of those things, I think, they're far more in the front of people's minds. So I don't know if you have to go through the loss of

somebody close to you to have those feelings. I think they're in all of us, but it's people also listening. People need to listen, listen and talk. And that's what you do. And that's what your podcast does. And that's what you do as a doctor. You sit and you listen. I presume you've got, I imagine, you've got fantastic bedside manner. Yeah, one thing, a few things that you said, but I found really, really interesting. As a doctor, I teach lots of doctors. I teach them how to apply lifestyle as a treatment with their patients because we're not taught that at a medical school. And once, I think someone asked me, you know, what's the most important thing you've learnt in, you know, all your years of seeing patients? And I thought about it and I said, this is the most important thing I've

learned. Connect first, educate second. And I think that applies to life in general. What I do with all my patients is I take time to connect, right? If they feel as though I've seen them and I'm truly listening to them and validating the way that they feel, only then can I move on to educating them and giving them some advice. If you just try and rush it and go to the education piece first, I just don't find it very effective.

And if we think about that, that's the same in a marriage or a relationship or with your children, right? you have to connect first. People need to know that you care before you then try and move it on to something else. So I think that's a really important lesson for all of us in life. And I, you know, I very much hope that's what I do with my patients. I certainly try to. The other thing you mentioned was judgment. I do feel, Gabby, we are becoming more and more judgmental as a society. And I think it's a problem. And going back to what I said before, that phrase, if you were them, you'd be acting in exactly the same way.

I literally urge anyone listen to this. Try that for seven days. Anytime someone pisses you off or you find yourself getting triggered, just try and apply that sentiment and just see what happens over seven days because I guarantee that you will feel something different. You may find it hard at first.

You may go, no, man, if I was then, there's no way I'd be acting like that. Really? If you had their childhood, their parents, they're bullying at school, their work colleagues, you don't treat them kindly. You know, if you really go into it, go, you really think you'd be behaving differently. I'm not convinced that we would. And the other piece is there with judgment is, you know, when we judge other people,

really in many levels we're kind of judging ourselves. The root cause of judgment for most of us is that we feel inadequate. We don't feel good enough in who we are. So we love to judge others because then we sort of put them down. And in doing so, we've kind of elevated ourselves. And that's a fragile place to be. Yeah, you'll feel good maybe for a few minutes, maybe for half an hour. Right. You feel, yeah, yeah, you know, I shouldn't be behaving like that. But if you honestly think that's making you happier, I have a different perspective. I don't think it does. When you can truly see people as equal and be compassionate.

And actually, it's the biggest thing for me, Gabby, I try my best. not to judge other people. Doesn't matter what their view is. Doesn't matter what the topic. I'm like, you know what? That's their view of the world. I may have a different perspective. I may have a different view.

But I respect their right to have that perspective based upon their life. And I've got to tell you, by practicing that in my own life, I feel happier. I feel more content. And I think I'm a better father and a better husband as well.

Are you happy? I really am, Gabby. I really am. And again, a few years ago, asked me that, I probably would have caveated it by saying, oh, you know, yeah, but this and that, but the truth this I am, doesn't mean I don't have bad days. Right. And that's the thing we probably might have time to talk about today is that, you know, I've got a new model of happiness in the book that I call core happiness. I think core happiness is what we're after as opposed to junk happiness.

And core happiness is three components, alignment, contentment and control. And it's something that you can strengthen and develop over time, which is what I do and what I'm teaching people to do in the book. And I've got to say, I really feel calm, happy and content these days. But it's been a bit of work, you know. I didn't just wake up one day and decide to be like this. No, I've had to practice all the things that we're talking about regularly. I had to fail at certain things and go, oh, no, you know what, it's better if I have that response, as opposed to this response. So, you know, in answer your question, am I happy? Yes, I very much. I love that. Perfect answer. When was the last time you completely lost it laughing? I think it might

have been Saturday night over dinner. I can't remember what the topic was, but I was literally driving my wife up the wall because me and the kids were just laughing our heads off at, I think I was overtired. I get a bit hysterical when I'm over tired and I was just laughing. And I can't think that she was best, please. But yeah, it was Saturday evening over dinner. And when with the, I'm just going back to the very beginning, if I make, to the four musical instruments. When you go and do these tours, I know you're talking about your book, and quite rightly so. And you should have all of your books there on stage with you and wave them in the air until everyone to buy them. But will you go on tour with your music?

It's funny you should ask that, Gabby. One of my best mates, actually, we've been talking about that. So I'm thinking, should I? Yes. Would it be cool? Yes. Like halfway through, maybe a song or two. Maybe, maybe I'm thinking about it.

But I would love to. It's a huge part of who I am, what I've done for years on stage. You know, back in 2005, I think. I had an XFM single of the week, I think, in XFM Manchester with one of the tracks that I'd written. So it's something that I'm hugely passionate.

What was it called? I think this is pre the internet taken off. So I don't think you'll find it anywhere. It was called Shades of Grey. And they definitely played it on XFM, Manchester. I think every day that week. So I'd love to. It's something I am.

I'm considering. So watch this space. Well, you're great friends with my wonderful Chris Evans. He has Carfest. I'm sure he's asked you to play live. And if he hasn't, I'm making that phone call now. Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. I am going to be at Car Fest this year.

And I'm in talks with the team about the possibility of doing something. So there we go. But do you make the call to Chris. See what happens. I'm going to literally straight afterwards. His PA, I'm going to text. I'm going to message him and say, I've got you a live act.

He can play four musical instruments. And when he's overtired, he loses it in front of his family. So we've got to get you very tired playing your instruments up on stage. Okay, who would be your dream band? Who would you like on stage with you? You couldn't have anyone. They've got to be alive, but anyone? Dream band.

Okay. I love John Mayer. Okay. I love, love John Mayer. So I have John Mayer on guitar. Oh, dream band. So you're not talking about the dream band to watch? No, no, no, no.

Your band that's on stage with you. So John Mayer, you've got so far with you. John Mayor, I've got so far. Well, I love Lenny Kravitz, and because Lenny can play every instrument, I probably have, not sure Lenny'd be that happy being behind me and the drums while I was singing. But, yeah, I'd love to have Lenny Kravitz on stage with me. Okay.

I think Chris Martin would be quite fun to sing with. I love Chris's voice. I think it's awesome. So, yeah, if we can do that at Carfess, that'd be pretty awesome. Oh, that is brilliant. Right, I'll tell you what, I'm in the front. If that's happening, John Mayer, Lenny Kravitz, Chris Martin, and you, the doctor, the musical doctor. I'm there. I've bought the T-shirt already. I've got the biggest grin on my face. Imagine that. Anyway, I can, I can but dream. You absolutely can, and we all should. I think dreams are very important.

You're lovely. Thank you so much. It's been really fun to chat. Thanks for all that you're doing to raise awareness of health and well-being as well. It's absolutely fabulous to see. you. Thank you very much. That Gabby Roslyn podcast is proudly produced by Cameo Productions. Music by Beth McCari. Could you please tap the follow or subscribe button? And thanks so much for your amazing reviews.

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