That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Ed Jackson

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Former rugby player turned mountain climber extraordinaire, Ed Jackson, joins Gaby for a chat about all things joy. He talks about empathy, living life to the full, being kind and why climbing a mountain is 'down time' for him. During his time in hospital, after a terrible spinal injury, Ed saw just how easy it can be to have your life turned upside down, and has made it his mission in life to help people and raise awareness. He also saw how lonely some people were during that time, and encourages us all to be friendly and kind. They also chat about his new book - 'From The Mountain's Edge' - as well as the charities he's involved in. Remember you can watch all of our episodes on our YouTube channel - where you'll also find our extra Show N Tell episodes, every Friday! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sunday Times bestselling author. It sounds weird. No, it's great. Just enjoy that. Yeah. Ed Jackson, thank you for making me think. About what? About everything.

About life. I mean, I believe hugely in spreading positivity and kindness and joy. Hence reasons to be joyful. But what you spread is from, from so. so deep within your soul and risk, resilience, survival, but also you make everybody who hasn't gone through what you've gone through, just take a moment to think. And I think we all need that, especially now. So thank you. Pleasure. I mean, perspective is such a powerful thing. And it was one of the things that massively saved me psychologically following my accident. Because before that,

in high performance sport, everything was going pretty well. And I was always wanting more, looking ahead of me, annoyed about what I didn't have. And then all of a sudden, you're, you know, on a spinal unit, surrounded by people who have got no hope of ever moving again and all of, you know, these situations. And you start to realize how lucky you were to have any of that stuff in the first place, but also even though your situation now is worse comparatively to where it was before, on paper, you're still in a way better position than a lot of people. And gratitude, and that sense of perspective that a lot of us miss, tied in with gratitude, was one of the first and best ways and still is to this day,

how I stand in more positive headspace on a day-to-day basis. But you must have been a bit like that before the accident, because, unless it, I mean, I know, I know you died and you, all the awful things that happened and you were told you were never going to walk again. But there must have been something that, was in you before to have that resilience and that fight and that will? Yes, and no, this is an interesting one. I think this is the one that people are still confused about.

Even the scientists, you know, it's like nature versus nurture. Why do some people react in a positive way after trauma? Why do some people it's really tough for them? And often it's not the people you'd expect. And I'm definitely more positive than I was before, which is ironic considering the situation. but I wasn't a negative person before, but I would still like a good moan about every...

And I still do. I guess I'm going to say, I'm sure you still do. And actually, my wife gets annoyed at me because sometimes I come home and she just wants to have a good whinge about work or something. And I'm like, yeah, but come on, look how lucky we are. She's like, shut up. Just stop being so positive all the time.

That's like my husband. I think they should get together. He goes, will you stop being so positive? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's not actually not feeling those emotions of frustration, fear, anger, whatever. it might be, it's being able to rationalise them quicker and move them on quicker because you've

got other benchmarks to hold them against. And once you've died a couple of times or, you know, been told you're never going to walk again or whatever those situations might be, everyone's got them in life as they're like benchmarks. You might have lost a loved one or whatever it is. All of a sudden, everything against that doesn't seem quite as bad. But it is easy to get sucked back into it. You know, that's just the hecticness of day-to-day life. So reminders every now and again, important. Oh, they really are. I think we all need them. That moment when they said, you'll never walk again, how, I'm that, that extraordinary moment where you just said, where you thought and said, yes, I will. I mean, I want to, does that come from so deep that

you weren't aware of where it came from? Or was it somebody else? Because you talk about having all your friends and your family around you, and I love that. And, and, and, and, and, and, And I know that's been so important to you. But where did that? I mean, I've met other people who have had the same as you and they've said, I will walk again. And it's this determination. How quickly was that?

If I'm honest, at the start, that wasn't what I thought. Because I'd been told clinically. It had been seven days and I'd had no movement or sensation return. So I was told I had a complete injury. Which means, you know, when you've got a complete injury, which, of course, fortunately it turned out I didn't. It doesn't matter how much effort you put in, you're not going to change yourself physically, unless there's a medical breakthrough, which is a whole different podcast, which is fortunately actually happening at the moment, which is amazing. But I actually thought, okay, maybe that is the case.

But I looked at my mom and my wife, and I realized at that point when he said, you never be able to walk again, but we're hoping you can get enough use of your arms and hands back that you can be independent. And up until that point for those previous seven days in intensive care, I'd just been in the headspace of why me. Like life isn't fair. You know, just thinking about myself really. Understandably. Completely understandably. You hear about these things happening.

You never think they're going to happen to you. And it was, I had some really, really dark, tough moments, you know, thinking I don't want to be here anymore. And it was when he said in the word independence, I realized that this wasn't just about me. This was about everyone that was either going to have to care for me for the rest of my life or that I'd affected emotionally because of this mistake I'd made. And that mindset shift was motivating in a weird way because it was the hardest thing to ever hear.

But I kind of knew he was going to say that. I was there when they were doing the tests on me every day. But it set a line in the sand. And I was like, right, I'm in six months' time or a year's time at the point if when my family are caring for me or if they're caring for me, hopefully, but probably when they're carrying for me, I need to know in my head and myself that I've done everything I can to try and get better, just so I can look myself in the mirror. I don't think it's going to happen, but I've got to go for it. So when I moved the focus off myself and moved it onto my loved ones, all of a sudden I had more motivation. And that's when

I spent all those hours just closing my eyes, trying to move something, trying to wiggle something, never thinking it was really going to get there. But of course, it did. And that moment where you knew it did. You must have known that it would to keep closing your eyes and trying to move something. You knew it was going to, because you had such determination. Yeah, I was actually losing hope after about,

I was like, I'll do this for six months. I was losing hope after about 18 hours. Yeah. It was actually... Again, understand. Yeah, it was actually only a day late. I mean, it was ridiculous because I played professional rugby and I put my body through a lot physically and pushed myself hard.

I'd never realized how deep I could dig. And I wasn't moving at all. All I was doing was closing my eyes and visualising my toes moving, but the amount of effort you put in neurologically, I was doing that for an hour of then passing out of sleep, waking up, doing it, passing out of sleep. Because it's exhausting. Because it's exhausting.

And you're putting effort in an addiction. different way. And then, you know, 24 hours later, my toe wiggled. And I thought it was a spasm and screamed for my mum to come in and I was like, my God, it's moving. And then that, and that was just this amazing moment that that was below the level of injury. So I was expected to get some use of my arms and hands back, some use, because I was C6, C7, which is the bottom of the neck. So the nerves above that weren't affected, everything below. And, but a wiggling toe means there's some connection past that point of injury, which meant I wasn't a complete injury. And that was the point I said, I'm going to walk again because all bets were off then. And weirdly,

emotionally, I'd drawn the line in the sand and I didn't expect anything beyond that. All I wanted to do was be independent. So now all of a sudden, everything after that point is a bonus. So when you move the barrier of expectation down that low, all of a sudden the rest of your life seems a lot better. I love that. But we still do that about everything. You should all do that. But you've gone from this remarkable, and it is, we all use the phrase so often, life-changing experience, it really was life-changing,

to this extraordinary person who helped so many, started up a charity, climbs mountains, takes the extraordinary decision to turn around just from the top, All of this is remarkable. I hope that you sit back, this is a strange thing to say, but I hope you sit back and you give yourself credit because I get the feeling that you obviously help everybody.

I can tell. Even just when you say hello, you just ooze goodness and kindness and wanting to help everybody. But do you ever sit back and think, oh, lower, I've done? Not really. I mean, I have done. There's been moments of, there's some magical moments that happen with the charity regularly

where you see someone else go through a, go through a moment because of something that we've helped, we've supported them with on their journey. You know, we haven't done it to them. We create the framework for them to succeed themselves. And, you know, when a beneficiary turns up to us and they see their trauma as life-ending and they never want to, you know, engage with the world again. And then two years later, three years later, whatever that. timeframe might be that we've worked with them, you then see them mentoring a new beneficiary

and using their experience of their trauma to help others. And you can see they've then changed their perception of their trauma from a negative one to using it as a positive and then you're like, okay, great, now they can move on. And that makes me emotional. And I do sometimes think it's such a very privileged position to be in, but there's also a lot of pressure involved in that. And I think when you do, I mean, inspiration's a weird word to me, but when you do have, you can

have a impact on someone else's life. And I know this because people inspired me when I was in hospital. There were people that I clung onto who still meant to me to this day that were years ahead of me and their accidents. You know, I'm just paying this forward. This isn't coming from me. Like, I've received

it, I know the difference, and now I pay it forward. But you, it's an amazingly privileged position to be in, but I'm quite empathetic as well. So it can be quite traumatic because you go through these emotions with people on a day-to-day basis. It's not something I would ever change, but it can be quite tiring from time to time. And actually having that time to sit back and reflect and go, okay, we've done something amazing, I think is counterintuitive to me because... Please do it, though. It's been part of my healing journey, has been like, pushing into things.

And if I'm honest, I think I do need to step back from time. time. You're about to though, aren't you as well? You're stepping back a bit, social media and television and all that, and you're going for another climb. Am I right? Yeah, I mean, stepping back looks different to different people because for me, weirdly, I'm off to Kyrgyzstan for a month in August to try and climb a mountain that's never been

climbed before. And people are like, don't you ever stop? I'm like, no, that is stopping. To me, that's weird. No one's going to be able to contact me for a month. It's like amazing. So that's a headspace break. And then when I'm home, often I'll go through physical breaks.

I've still got to look after my body. You know, I'm not 27 like I was when I had the accident anymore. And I live with the spinal cord injury and all of the effects of that. And getting old with a disability like mine is one of the fears. You know, everything's accelerated a bit more. But we all get old. But I need to start being conscious of the fact that I've got to look after my longevity as well as just keep pushing. because I've got the rest of my life to live as well

whereas after the accident I was just head down it was rehab then it was hobbling up Snowden then it was climbing up and then it was starting a charity then it was helping people because it was helping me that was my way to cope and heal for myself too and I agree I do get told by my family and Lois my amazing wife that sometimes

you do need to slow down and smile the roses but I'm so privileged to be in the position I'm in and that's come from pushing I think so it's a difficult one for me to get my head around maybe just do it just for an hour Lois has literally just put a post up on Instagram today and the title is like when you go to a spa hotel but your husband's got zero chill

at the weekend she's just videoing me like in the gym going for mountain bike rides but it's just the way I am like that's the way I switch off I think how about sitting on a bench in the woods looking up at the trees. I do that. I do do that. And I love walking by myself without my phone

and I take those mini breaks day to day. You give so much. I mean, you're such a giver. Before we get on to the book, which is extraordinary, in a good way. Can we talk about the charity? Because I think it's important to talk about the charity. Because obviously, you just mentioned it a couple of times.

and that helped you help it, like you said, paying it forward. I think that's what life should be really for everybody. So let's talk about the charity first of all, so M2M. And it is literally you helping other people go through what you went through and saying you can do it, isn't it? Pretty much. I mean, it started weirdly, very long story short, I got the opportunity to go to Nepal two years after my accident. to raise awareness for a spinal unit that was trying to be built over there with another charity. I was completely inspired by that.

I came back, I said, well, I want to raise as much money as we can for this charity. And the way we did it, the way I did it was I had started, a year after my accident, I hobbled up Snowden, and I invited people to come and join me, and loads of people turned out way more than I expected. So I started arranging these sort of small climbs, walks, and people who came along with fundraise. But it was on these climbs and walks, I realised that there was so much healing going on. amongst the people who would come and join because a lot of them were people who had either been through trauma before or were supporters of trauma

because naturally they were the people who were following me on social media and the conversations that were happening whilst we were outdoors in these spaces were really profound so that was sort of six years ago and we sort of switched, we still support the charity in Nepal but the main name of the charity now is we take on eight people a year young adults who have been through trauma

It started as just physical trauma but psychological trauma as well now for a three-year program so we've got 24 beneficiaries in the system at any one time and we basically create a environment for them to heal themselves so we fund trips abroad

we do lots of outdoor stuff in the UK but the community that they create and the friendships they create is the most special thing and we've found life coaching, retraining therapy so it's very much an inch wide mile deep approach with each beneficiary because it took me about three years to get to a point where I was like

actually I wouldn't take this back and I just wanted to replicate that through the program. I don't think you can run one event and then say goodbye to someone afterwards who's been through trauma it's like what are the next steps how do we make this sustainable like anything in life you've got to you know you've got to progress with things and you've got to stay on top of stuff and it's just worked better than we can have ever imagined and the amazing thing is even though we're only supporting 24 beneficiaries a time or 8 a year the ripple effect. has been really amazing because a lot of them have then gone on to start their own charities, retrain as life coaches, you know, and they're helping other people,

as well as just helping the new beneficiaries that come in. So it's a special thing that's very, very close to my heart, obviously. We've just come back from Italy with the, and the beneficiaries inspire me every day as well. And because everyone's got a different story of trauma, but there's loads of common threads that you can relate to, there's always something or someone that you can go, actually I really recognise that in your personality or in the situation you've been in. So they're helping more people than are just involved with the charity.

And talking is important. This is part of it, isn't it? Talking about how you feel what you've been through. And then that helps somebody else. And then, obviously, let's talk about from the mountains edge, it's an extraordinary read. I mean, it's sort of you can't put it down. and I cried and

but I felt like I was there which is that's what you did with the first book as well how I don't even want to ask you because I now know

what it was like for you so everyone's got to buy the book but that moment where I mean I'm not it's not a spoiler because you've told the story but that moment where you make that decision to turn around

before you get to the peak it's incredible and it makes so much sense and it's me shouting at you for being here. Yes, do it, do it. But that must have been another... I mean, the decisions you've had to make in life are enormous. Yeah, it was a really sort of profound moment in my life because I think I...

Going back to it was just saying pushing, pushing, pushing, I think I always wondered if I'd have it in me to turn around if I hit the limit. And in mountaineering, something called summit fever kills a lot of people. You know, you get close to the summit and you keep going and you're so tired and phased out, you just don't want to stop and then exhaustion, weather, whatever it might be. And it kills people. Yeah, it kills people regularly.

And I was obviously completely exhausted by this point. But I had this feeling that, like, there was this pool going back down the mountain. And I also had a responsibility because there was the rest of a team there that were there because I was there. They wouldn't have been there otherwise. and if I didn't turn around, they wouldn't have turned round. Now, I'm not saying I would have got much further because I was literally at the limit, but what happened on the dissent

and the survival situation we had to end up in, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have made it through that if we hadn't turned round at that point. Obviously, you could argue we could have turned round earlier, and that's just hindsight. However, I don't think turning round is celebrated enough. You know, like, there's plenty of very brave mountaineers in the graveyard.

And, like, accidents happen, of course. But I think in life, you know, I think it's more than just about the summit. You're not there to conquer these mountains. Yes. You're there for like, you're there for the adventure. And we had a way more amazing adventure, not going to the top of that mountain. And I don't have an urge to go back and stand on top of that mountain.

You know, it's not about me beating the mountain in inverted commas. We're very fortunate that she let us off. off, you know, and I think that's because we did all of our rituals before we went up there, is because we employed, like, Big Raj, our guide, the Nepalese guide, I helped him set up his own company so he could take us so that all the money could stay in Nepal. You know, and I think all these things, I was never spiritual before, but I do think when you're in these situations, there's something else going on. We were very, very lucky to survive it.

And I'm proud of the fact we turn around, and I thought that that was an important thing to write about because a lot of the time there's obviously books about traumatic accidents or mountains but a lot of the time it's about conquering and you can't conquer mountains they're greater than anything will ever be. But you still I'm not going to use the word.

What you did, what you achieved, what you went through and how you lived to tell the tale to me is more powerful. You're not going to like it as an ex-sportsman But I don't understand the wanting to beat somebody. I want to just take part and have a good time.

I think the challenges, the goals, if you like, are a good way to motivate the journey, as long as you're not so set up. I would never say that trip was a failure. In fact, I'd say it was more of a success because of the profound realisations that we... If it had all gone to plan and been perfectly, we got to the top and back down...

It's a huge lesson. It wouldn't have been more as impactful. You would never go looking to have these situations on a mountain because you're going to end up on the wrong side after a while. But the book for me is more about, it is more than just what happens in the sort of dramatic end of the story. For me, it's a love letter to Nepal as well because that's become a very special place for me.

We take the charity there every year. We support, as I said, a set up a climbing company for one of our guides so the money can stay in Nepal. We support a spinal unit there. And I go there every year because it gives me my reset. Just being around the Nepalese people, being in those environments, they don't have a word for depression or for stress.

It just doesn't exist in Nepalese language. So obviously there's people in situations where, obviously, they might be sad around. They're humans, but they've got nothing and they're so happy and they want to give you their last thing. And you just come back and you're like, what are we all doing? And I need to go there every... I haven't got the ability. in 10 minutes to sit there and cross my legs

and we've already worked out from this conversation. I'm a bit restless. So I need to go to Nepal for a week to get that reset that someone might be able to do by meditating but it does make a profound difference and for me it's a love letter to Nepal. I always keep extensive diaries when I go on these trips so

it was actually the way the book came about is I sent the diaries to Bev who's my agent because she just wanted to know what happened in terms of more details. I kept diaries are left, I've sent them over and since she got back in touch with me she said I sent them to Lisa

she wants you to make them into a book I was like classic Bev but that was an amazing thing but then to go back through it and turn those 20,000 words and pad them out into a full book was quite emotional because especially towards the end

reliving those moments and recording the audio book but not emotional in a bad way because obviously it was a positive ending but it was an amazing experience writing it and recording the audio book because reliving that reliving that amazing time.

It's so easy to just move on to the next thing. We're all so busy and park stuff. But there was definitely a very formative period of my life. Apologies for the trite-ness of what I'm about to ask, but it's something I really do believe in. I believe everything happens for a reason, and I believe in living for the day. And I get that you were like that.

Do you believe everything happens for a reason? I actually don't. I actually don't think. think there's much rhyme or reason to life, personally. I think that there's definitely something else going on where there's a bit too much serendipity in certain situations for their not to be... Serendipity, favourite word. For there not to be something going on, like extra energy fields or people being drawn together, you know, that feeling when you can, you know someone's looking at the back of your head,

you know, there's something happening. But I think it's a dangerous place to be to expect anything from life and I think a lot of people when they, and my experience with working with a lot of people have been through trauma is they think that again, this happened for a reason you know, I should be in this situation or life's not fair

I felt this for a while after hospital, life's not fair, nothing ever goes my way you know, this, you know, whatever it might be and life is sometimes just random. bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. When I turned up in the spinal unit,

one thing I realized very quickly was I was surrounded by good people who had had spinal cord injuries in the most mundane ways. You know, I thought I was going to be surrounded by stunt men and extreme sports people and the type of people who'd have spinal cord injuries. It wasn't. There were just mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters

who had had spinal strokes and they didn't deserve what happened to them. But the ability to realize that actually that, why shouldn't it happen to me? It can happen to anyone because then it's easier to let go of it. If you relate those instances too personally to you and you think they were meant to happen to you, then I think psychologically it's harder to then let go of what happened before. But it's nice to think it happens for a reason when good stuff happens to you because it's like you feel like you're getting some sort of reward for the way you interact with the world.

and I do believe the more positivity and the more good you put out there, the more you will receive. Like, you are impacting the world because of the way you're interacting with it. But it doesn't mean you're not going to get hit by a bus tomorrow. Yes. Absolutely. I totally, totally agree with you. But do you live in the moment? I live too much in the moment.

Too much? I had this conversation again. My wife's very, very small lady, and she's a life coach. And it's great because we get into a lot of deep conversations on regular basis. We talk about a lot of crap as well. Well, I hope so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we were chatting the other day about,

I live so presently that I often don't think about, not the repercussions, but I'm not planning ahead, like, further down the line. And this is quite poignant at the moment because we're going through a fertility journey. And you'll be so open about that as well. Yeah, and that's important. And each step as it goes, I'm like, yeah, you know, we'll just go to the next phase, and then we'll think about it. She's like, we've got to plan, we're getting to that age,

got to think further ahead. And I think there's a beauty in being really present for the individual because they live a bit more blissfully because you're not thinking, I still have regrets and I still worry about things in the future, but not very often. But it's not the best way to go through life. Sometimes you do have to go, right, if I do this now, then in a year's time, it's going to make a difference.

But you can think about tomorrow and you can remember yesterday, but this moment at this time is never going to happen again. Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. And being present was a massive tool to dealing with how stressful and traumatic the time was after my accident. Because that first week, and for a long time afterwards, you're thinking, how could I have not dived in the pool? You're reliving the moment over and over again. How did I make that mistake? But like you said, all the other people, there was a lovely gentleman I met many, many, many years ago.

And he had exactly the same injury as you. And it had to happen because he was lying at the sea's edge in a gentle one. wave lacked and twisted the wrong way and I went to see him at the spinal cord unit and he had exactly the same injury and he did say I wasn't doing anything

you know you dived in a shallow end of a pool one of the first thing I thought was like flashbacks of just all the stupid stuff I'd done in my life though I should have broken my neck like 10 years of professional rugby for a star but just being a boy that loved being outside jumping out of trees

and then it's a Sunday afternoon diving into a swimming pool that does it. And it's funny because the initial reaction was that's not fair. But then afterwards it makes you, and my mum was like, okay, great, now you can wrap yourself in cotton wool and look after yourself because she couldn't even watch me play rugby. And of course, the irony is I've ended up climbing mountains. But it has the opposite effect, I think.

It did for me anyway, because you realize that you could wrap yourself in cotton wool, but then anything can happen to you. It was a Sunday afternoon. Like you said, walking in front of a bus. Yeah. So it's more about enjoying and grabbing life whilst you're here and not holding on too much to what is going to happen in the future because it can be very random.

What is life to you now? What is life to me? Life is very busy at the moment, but not in a bad way. Life is an adventure. I've gone through periods of going and saying yes to everything because I had spent a long time thinking that I wouldn't ever be able to to do anything again and I was just going to be a burden on everyone. And then when I got to a point where I was having these opportunities to like go to Nepal

or whatever it is, I was jumping at them. And then life got a bit hectic and I had to learn to say no to things, which was an interesting process, but a really beneficial one. I had some amazing guidance from my wife, my family, Bev, who's my agent, who I met a long time ago, about how to do that. It's quite ironic actually. My whole life was being run by men for most of my life. like rugby, all my coaches of men, and now all of my mentors and everyone are women.

And it's quite nice. And I need that. Love that. I definitely need that. So it's helped me slow down and be a bit more organized, a bit more organized. But life to me is about giving back and enjoying it. And I think you do, for me, actually giving back is enjoying it. The rewards you get from helping other people emotionally is unbelievable. It's the ultimate win-win situation. And I often advise people, you know, if they're really struggling, if they're feeling down, don't try and do something for you. Go and do something for someone else. And you'll realise immediately you'll feel way better.

Yeah. And it's actually you should be, you should celebrate that you feel better and not think it's, oh, I'm not making it about me. No, because it's about, it's a, like you say, win-win. It's a win-win. It's a shared experience. Well, you promise me you'll do more television. I think you're brilliant on television. Oh, thanks.

I mean, yeah, I'd love to. I've got a lot of other commitments with the charity. I love doing TV stuff. I love it. And especially live stuff, like it's the adrenaline and everything. Yeah, it's the best. Yeah, it's amazing.

It's my drug of choice. Yeah, so I would love to do more. I'll probably be doing the Winter Paralympics next year with Channel 4. Brilliant. And might be doing some more rugby over the winter. But yeah, if anyone wants to get in touch and off some more TV work, feel free. Come and work on morning live, you know, get thin. So come and do something.

Yeah, yeah. That'd be great. Love that. I'm going to do some more. Right. That's it. I'm calling them now. Get in touch with him. Quick. Congratulations on the book. Thank you. Thank you for all of the guidance that you give to all of us. Will you please send Lois my love? Because I just think she's fabulous. Yeah, I will. I know everyone uses this. I find her really aspiring as well. She's incredible. And there's a big point here. You touched it briefly earlier.

Like my support network was a big reason that I got better. Yes, there might have been some inherent personality traits, but support network is massive. I spent a lot of time in hospital four months where some people had no visitors for four months. Oh, don't tell me that. Of course, they just want to take drugs in the morning and forget what's going on. And then you start to appreciate what you've got massively. And it wasn't just the fact I had family and friends there, so I had something to get better for. I had a fiancé.

and the drive that gave me to get better, not just for me for her, is a huge part of why I've been able to end up where I am to this day. Do you still eat kebabs? Yeah, we still eat kebabs. We still eat kebabs sometimes. We try not to eat so much. I'm training for a mountain at the moment.

I'm trying to lose a bit of more weight, but I do like the fact that nobody's going to know what we mean, and let's just leave that in the ether. Ed Jackson, a real privilege to spend time with you, and I look forward to working with you a morning line. Oh, great. Yeah, let's do it.

Thank you so much for being on the place. Pleasure. Thank you. Just a joy to meet you. And thank you for this book from The Mountain's Edge. Everyone's got to read it. It's brilliant.