That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Elizabeth Day

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Author and podcaster, Elizabeth Day, joins Gaby for a joyful natter. They discuss her new book, her writing tips, infertility, dating apps and much more! Above all, they chat about what brings joy to Elizabeth - and also how she spreads joy herself to many others. We hope you enjoy! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, I'm Ben Earl and I'm one half of country duo, the Shires, and I've got a brand new podcast called Country Roads. Now, storytelling is at the heart of country music, and so places feature heavily in some of the genre's biggest songs. And it got me thinking, those places we go, they lead to the people we know, and it all leaves its mark on the music. So every week, I journey to the places that have made my favourite artists who they are and inspired some of their greatest songs. If you want to learn something new about the biggest stars in country, then Country Road to the Ben-Ale might just be your new favourite podcast. Elizabeth Day, at last, this is, this has taken a while, but we've got you here at last.

We did, I'm so sorry. The reason it's taken up is all my fault. No sorries. Okay, well, I acknowledge it was my fault, and I don't want you to take that as any metric of my enthusiasm. No, no, no. desperate to do this and I love and adore you and I'm so happy we've made it happen. I know, but I'm just setting out my stall.

That's so you. That's so you. So we did a chat recently, a live chat with an amazing audience and these women and men were totally, they loved you. They absolutely loved you. When I talk about you and I told people that I was doing that talk, there is nothing but positivity around you. you have this extraordinary energy that you give out and I want to know if you've always been like that because I didn't ask you on that night I think you have you're like a healer, I really do

but you have this energy that you give out and I want to know if you were always like this because I never asked you on the night. What an amazing question and thank you first of all that's such a beautiful thing to say and I feel really emotional hearing it and you'll try and shush me and say this is typical me but it's not.

I also have to say to your listeners that the energy that you brought into that space. Oh, no, no, no, no, we're talking about you. But it's true. Gabby was charming. You're talking all about you. No, it's about you. Basically, everyone fell in love with Gabby, including the security guards. That's all I'm saying.

Okay. Were you always like this? No, basically a short answer, I wasn't always like this, I don't think. I was a quiet child. That might amuse my parents if they listen to it. this because I don't think I was quiet in my family, but I was quiet in the outside world. I get that. That's the same with me. Really? And I don't know what your childhood was like, but mine, there was a sort of rupture point when I was four when we left Epsom where I'd be

born and raised until that point. And we went to Northern Ireland. So the year was 1982 and Northern Ireland was going through a really difficult time politically and it was in the grip of the troubles. There were military checkpoints on our way to school and stuff like that. And to speak with the English accent, as I did, was to mark you out as an outsider. Worse, it was sometimes to mark you out as an occupier. And actually, my dad was a surgeon. He's retired now.

And so we had no affiliation with the military whatsoever. But I understood that people would make assumptions from a very young age. And so that's why I think... That's incredible. That's very knowledgeable that you'd realize people would make assumptions. Yes. That's a very mature thing to work on. Well, I think I was actually really mature.

But again, because I'm the younger one of two, and my sister's four years older than me. So it's a nice gap, but it's quite a big one at the same time. And so I was used to being around older people. And then I was used to being around this kind of older situation, politically. The context was really tricky at points. And it's always very interesting what people don't say. It sort of shapes identity almost as much as what we do.

And so in that time, I think I was quite quiet and observant as a child. And so I don't think I was radiating any kind of energy other than a sort of introverted intensity. And funnily enough, I had an Instagram DM this weekend from someone whose mother-in-law remembers me from those years. And she remembers inviting my family and me to a party. and I spent the party apparently, according to her, on the stairs reading a book. And when I got that message, I was like, that was so me.

And I think it's taken me a long time to understand that although that is a core part of me, there are other parts of me and it's taken me a long time to know myself. And so this idea of radiating a kind of energy and I'm so glad that you think that about me. I feel that's a massive compliment. Well, lots of people think that.

Thank you. Well, that's really lovely to hear. And I think that only started happening in my late 30s, when my life, as I thought I was going to live it, did not turn out that way. It kind of imploded in spectacular style. And actually, in the grip of that implosion, there's also this extraordinary seed of opportunity

where I was confronted with the opportunity to look at things and to decide whether I had been living the life that felt authentic to me or whether actually I'd kind of been lying to myself or pretending or acting, as so many of us do. And this was an opportunity to paint a different kind of life on a blank canvas. And I think that's when it started. Are you still the person that would sit on stairs and read a book? If I allowed myself to, yes, I think I am. but because I've become socialised.

And because I also really love connecting with people, as I know you do. And part of the reason I read and I'm so passionate about telling stories myself is because it's an opportunity to connect with your characters, but also with the reader on the other side of the page. Do you always think of the reader then? That's a really good question. I do, but not when I'm actively writing it. because I think that can be distracting.

Right. And sometimes... So you're with the characters then? I'm with the characters. And sometimes my anxiety will ensure that my reader, as they appear in my head, if I allow it, is basically a critical reader. And that's unhelpful to the creative process. But I think of the reader when I'm formulating the story I want to tell.

And afterwards, when it comes out into the world, they are front and center, absolutely, in terms of, like, guessing the book into their hands and hoping that they love it. What do they look like? The reader? Yeah. That's again a great question. I think they look like me at that party on the stairs engrossed in a story. In that I don't think I would attribute any physical characteristics to them,

but I would attribute this sense of wanting to be engaged, enthused and involved in an amazing story. And they possibly have that hint of introversion that is with me still. In fact, the older I get, the more introverted I realize I am, which I love. But that's okay. Oh, I'm really embracing it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think they would be like that and they would also have curiosity about the world.

I love people who ask questions and are curious because that's what makes us alive is wanting to know more. But you did. So from the child on the stairs reading the book was, and I read, I don't know if this is right, that you started writing and you knew you wanted to write. from the age of 12, you just went, that's it, that's what I want to do. And you started. Yeah, it was actually even earlier than that, which makes me sound very weird to say. No, you do put, you do that a lot about yourself. Nothing weird. No apologies. That's so lovely. I was four when I... You were four. I was four when I wanted to write books.

Okay. Which is interesting. You know, in my other life as a podcaster, I get to interview amazing people. some of them are very successful at what they do and, you know, Hollywood actors and brilliant writers. And occasionally I will meet someone who will say something similar. Like they just knew, before they knew what the job was, they knew that they wanted to do it. And I think for me, I loved books. And I was so lucky to have parents who really valued books and reading. And my mother would read to me and she taught me to read and write before I went to school.

And so I was really passionate about books And I just remember thinking I want to be an author Even that's fine I get that I wanted to be a TV presenter from three Did you? That's all I wanted to do So I absolutely So when somebody else looks me in the eye

And says I was four years old I get it Yeah And it and but do you When you tell people that Do they Do you get the reaction that sometimes I get So I can

I know this happens When people say Oh really Exactly It's sort of precocious and, oh, you push your way. No, I just was that little girl just knowing that's what I wanted to do. And I get a feeling that that's why you were reading the book on the stairs. But it was an enthusiasm, not a, I'll get, I'll elbow people out of the way.

Absolutely. It was a love. It was a love. That's the best way to describe it. It's a passion and I actually think, for me it's a vocation. That doesn't mean that I think I'm amazing at it, but it means that it's, I feel that it's my purpose on this planet to tell stories. How wonderful. It's an amazing gift. And how lucky are you?

It's an amazing gift, actually, to know that. What you want to do? And when I write, and I don't know if it's the same for you when you present, I feel in alignment with myself. I feel at home. Yes. I feel untangled, which is such a beautiful thing that I'm very grateful for. Age 12, you're right.

I started being a journalist. For age 12, I started writing a column for a local paper. So that was when you became professional after. Yes. That's when I was like, I need to get some first job experience writing words. So what did you write at 12? I was so opinionated. I know about now and I'm like...

You know, that's opinionated now. No. You have your opinions, but I wouldn't call you an opinionated soul. 100%. I am no longer opinionated. The order I get, the fewer opinions. I mean, I think you're, have opinions. I have opinions. I have beliefs, I suppose. You suss people out. Yeah, I have beliefs.

I just, I mistrust people who have really readily available opinions about everything. Because I don't think you can possibly know enough about everything to know immediately what you think about what is probably a complicated issue. But actually right now in the world, you're spot on. Completely. And I think we really should get braver. On two things. One is saying I don't know enough about that. Please teach me or let me go away and inform myself. And the second is understanding that not all of your actions have to be done for an audience.

They don't have to be done online in order to exist and be valid. Hallelujah to that. Yeah. Those are two things. But going back to myself, age 12, I was opinionated about certain things. And the first column I wrote was about how I felt there were, too many Australian soap stars.

This really dates me. There were too many Australian soap stars who just thought they could launch a music career. And actually it was just getting ridiculous when the likes of Stefan Dennis, who I think is a lovely man, and I wish him the best of luck on Strictly. He's going to be in Straitz.

I know, that's so funny. The likes of Stefan Dennis and the twins on neighbours and launching singles. And it was like, I don't think that now. For some reason at the time. But that's great. It was a way into

it was a way into popular culture which was something I remain passionate about and exploring that and cracking a few jokes and so I wrote that Have you still got it? Yes. Oh, wonderful. I have all of them in a little plastic binder

and a couple of years ago we actually had a flood in our house and that portfolio got damaged by the flood and I spent a whole day taking each piece of newsprint out and drying them on a radiator and they have survived. I've all right. I've got every single one of them. They're really precious. They are. They really make me feel an enormous amount of fondness towards my younger self. So were your parents completely supportive of you saying, right, I'm,

I'm going to be an author, I'm going to be a journalist, I'm going to do all these things. Did they say, yes, darling, off you go, do it? They actually did. How wonderful. Yeah, and again, that's one of my great gifts, is that I was not made to feel silly. And I think they appreciated my strength of conviction that that's what I was going to do. And for instance, my mother would always encourage me to write my grandparents a story. If I was writing a thank you letter for a present that they'd give me or something,

she would always encourage me to write a story to and my grandparents were very supportive. How wonderful. Yeah. What foresight of your mum? I know. And then the journalist side, I think they found it very amusing.

That there was this sort of very forthright, 12-year-old, English 12-year-old in Northern Ireland living just outside Derry. Talking about Australian soap stars. Talking about Australian soap stars, decided to write to every single local newspaper editor saying, I really think you should have a children's columnist. And bless Pat McCart of the Derry Journal,

he gave me my first ever job. And so, yeah, they were really supportive. And they kind of sat back and were like, I imagine they were like, what have we created? But proudly. Yes. My parents are of a generation where being proud. is not necessarily vocalised, but I know that they are proud of me now.

Are you proud of you? Yes, I am now. And writing books and launching the podcast have been a huge part of that. Because how to fail, which is the podcast that I launched in... Which I love, as you know, I absolutely love that podcast. Thank you. That means so much to me coming from you. I launched it when I felt like a failure in my personal life

and seeing that podcast grow from such modest beginnings where I drew the logo with my felt-tip pencil on night just kind of put it out into the ether to what it is now has been amazing on so many ways but one of the fundamental ways in which it's helped me is that I feel accepted by my audience flaws and all And I think I'd spent a lot of time trying to pretend I didn't have those flaws and I didn't have shame and I had it all sorted.

And it's been such a release and a relief to feel that actually when I've been open and vulnerable, that's the point of greatest connection. And so I'm proud of that. I'm proud of the fact that I took that risk. And going back to my very first question, you've just answered it. That's how you're healing people. That's how you're helping people. Because of your honesty, your openness, and being proud of yourself and everything you've been through.

So that answers my very first question. Well, that's a very meaningful thing for you to say. And one of the examples of the vulnerability that I was scared of is when I started talking about infertility, which is something that I've experienced. and still experience, if that's not a weird thing to say, in that I've come to terms with and am at peace with the fact that I will not be a mother in the biological conventional sense.

But I live with that still. And actually being open about that brought me into contact with so many amazing women and men who were going through similar things and who hadn't heard someone talk about an experience that they wanted to share. Everybody's so judgy. And I know I talk about this a lot. But, you know, it's that thing.

I remember when I was first married to my first husband, and it was, well, I haven't you had a child yet? When are you going to have a baby? And I remember turning around at an award. So I'd given Chris Evans an award. And so we were backstage together, and I love Chrissy. And this journalist really loudly went, Oi, when are you going to have a baby?

You're kidding. No, and the whole room went quiet. And I said, when I come off the pill, I'll let you know. And the room just. It's all, it's not your business. But maybe I chose not to, maybe I couldn't. I'm very lucky that I have two daughters. But I know I'm lucky and I know I'm blessed.

But nobody's business, go away. And what hurts me for you is that the people would be, so why haven't you had a child? Oh, you're not going to have a child? When are you going to have a child? When are you going to have a child? Oh, why can't you have a child? Oh, why can't you have a child?

Oh, can't you have children? Shut up. Yeah, shut up. But gosh, that's that story. I just want to focus on for a second. I also love Chris Evans because, I mean, I don't know him like you do, but he's interviewed me and I think he's an amazing interviewer. He's a great guy.

As you are. The two of you are just so sort of profound and brilliant what you do. But that story, I'm imagining, happened at some point in the 1990s, early 2000s. It was early 2000s. Such a difficult time for women in the public eye. And I just want to say, I'm proud of you for getting through that with your sense of integrity and your sense of joy intact, because that must have been tough at times. Yeah, no, no, no, but also I was working and I hadn't, and I didn't do it.

But also, it's nobody's business what any woman or man or person, anybody, chooses what they're going through because you've got to keep some of it to yourself. So, you know, somebody walking down the street, and we've got a wonderful trans friend who wants to adopt a baby. And we think it's fantastic. This person is so full of love. I mean, he is so full of love. And his worry is, what are people going to say? Yeah.

It's such a difficult era to live through, the judging us of it all. But it's wonderful what you've done because you've now, like you say, you've helped a lot of people talking about it. And there'll be moments, I'm sure, when you're lying in bed and it's dark and you think, or you'll think, I'm sad. Or I'm really pleased I told everybody or I might become a parent a different way. But that's yours.

It's not for somebody in the street to turn around and say, oh, why haven't you had a baby yet? Yeah. Definitely. I think you've expressed that so well in that grief. And I think it is a form of grief because you're sort of grieving the life unlived as well as the one that you are living,

lucky enough to live. Grief isn't linear. And so it does, appear at unexpected times and I have learned to be compassionate with myself when that happens. And then it doesn't mean that I'm, I've failed to be at peace with something that I decided. That's always the fear, isn't it? It's like, if you feel a moment it was sad, it's like, oh, did I not make the right choice? Have I ended up somewhere I wasn't meant to be?

But Monica Lewinsky came on How to Fail and said this amazing thing about regret. She said, just because you've experienced regret doesn't mean it wasn't the right choice. you can make the right choice and still have regret. And I feel that way about sadness or grief. And just recently, it has felt to me as though every single person I see in the media is pregnant. Are you pregnant, Gabby? Can I just check? Are you like, you just checking? That would be a miracle.

But things like that, sometimes you can be more sensitive to it than other times. And that's okay. And now I've got this amazing community of listeners and readers who I can turn to. And I'd be like, does anyone else feel like everyone's pregnant? And they're like, yes. And it's so validating to have that. I'm so pleased that they're helping you because you're helping them. Massively.

Give and give. Give and take. Take and give. Yes. In a way, no, it is give and give. It is give and give. So let's talk about your new book. I want to go back on one of the old books because I'm hoping it's being made into a TV show.

Is it still being made into... It is. Yes. The party's being adaptive for TV. I love the party. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that. But I'm going to say it anyway. But yeah, no, it's like happening as far as.

as I know in a couple of months. It's like starting filming. And you won't say casting, will you? I won't. I'll tell you when we stop recording. I know, it's so funny. Last time I saw you, I said, will you say casting. You said, I will let you know. It's only because I got into trouble once before,

not from the people who were doing the party, but with another project I was doing. Apparently there's this whole protocol. No, you mustn't. Yeah, I didn't realize that. I didn't realize that. Even if it's happening, the announcement is separate from the happening. But also, a lot of the presenters

or actors or performers. So I have to say, I've got a new project coming up. I'm not telling anybody because you can't talk about it until you're physically in the first coffee break. And then it's, oh, it is happening. We aren't making this TV. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, it's so fascinating because it's a completely different world. And obviously, as a consumer of TV, like I love TV, I had never realized how sort of fragile a lot of it is. Oh, yes. And it's actually miraculous that any TV ever. gets made is now my opinion. Fantastic. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm so excited to you. It's been a long time.

I cannot wait to watch it. And I will find out. He's on it. So let's talk about your new book though. This is very exciting. This is your ninth book. It's my tenth book, but it's my ninth for adults. Yeah. There's one that I wrote teenagers.

Yes. No, not kids. I call them kids. They're always kids. Yeah. I mean I wouldn't mind somebody called me a kid, but I'm not. Oh, when I get asked for ideas, although that doesn't happen as much anymore because, well, I'm older. But when I get asked for ID in Tesco, it's such a thrill.

It's like a micro-orgasm every time it happens. That is just, I love that you go to Tesco's and they ask for your ID. Yeah, I mean, it's a few years and as they have, but I do love it. I take it as a massive compliment. Love it, love it, love it. So let's talk about the new book.

Yeah, so the new book is called One of Us and it is a sequel to the party, which I wrote in 2017, but you do not have to have read the party first. It makes complete sense as a standalone. So don't feel like you have to go and do homework. That's the worst feeling. By the party, because I love the party.

Oh yeah, but also by the party. Yes, thank you. And one of us is the most fun I've ever had writing a novel. Really? Yeah. I've read that you've said that. Yeah. But you must have, you love what you do.

I do. So why is it the most fun? Well, I love what I do and I've always felt in my flow writing before. But it hasn't always been fun. It's been an amazing experience. experience. It might have been profound or cathartic. But this was the most joy, talking about joy, that writing a novel brought me. And I think it was for two reasons. One was, it's the first book I've written since letting go of the dream of motherhood, which meant no more fertility treatment. So,

I wasn't unhinged on hormones. I wasn't having the stress of going to a fertility clinic like every other day to get my bloodstown, all of that. And the second thing was, I was revisiting a world that I'd already created. So these characters who I first wrote about in 2017 when the party came out, although I hadn't consciously realised it, they've been living with me ever since. So they've had eight years of growth,

or not, as it turns out. And I really loved being in their company again. And because I had built the world, I think it meant that I could have more fun with the plot. So it's a multi-voice narrative. There are five main characters who you will hear from. And it's set against a backdrop of a political Britain that is in a confused path. It's on a confused path.

Really? That's quite familiar, yes. Inspired by some real-life events. And so one of the characters is a Tory MP who's lost his front bench seat because of a scandal and it's about his attempt to rehabilitate himself. Another character is Serena, who was in the first book, who she's a middle-aged woman going through perimenopause, hashtag Me Too. Not in that way.

She's a middle-aged woman going through perimenopause as I was when I was writing her. And that's the first time I've been able to do that. And she's grappling with this loss of identity she feels and wanting to be closer to her children. I just want to know who's playing her. All I can say is that the casting is amazing. And then we also revisit Martin, who now is a university lecturer, but he has had. Hell bent on revenge. So he had an unrecipricated love affair with his best friend from school, Ben Fitzmores,

who is symbolic of this sort of wealthy elite British aristocracy. And he's still kind of obsessed with Ben, even though they had a massive warning out and they don't speak anymore. And one of us opens with him being invited back into the Fitzmores family fold. So it's about this kind of push and pull about why we love the people who damage us and why sometimes we elect them to. So when you write the books, and I know everybody always asks this, and I find it you are allowed an imagination.

It's very funny that people always say, is it based on people, you know? But I get the feeling with you that you're, and I don't want to know if it's based on anybody, because I'm not asking that question. But when you write a book, does your head turn into that place? Do you lie in bed at night and you're there in with the fans? Do you see everywhere?

Is it very, do you write visually? That's, or do you write, I love that question. I love that question. I write so visually. Again, my aforementioned love of TV and a film, I do think, I always see the scene first. And I can see the room and the knick-knacks. So, well, that's what you give us as a reader of your books.

You know, I'll sit there and read the books. And I, it's so visual. That's why it makes sense that it's being made into TV. each party. And others should be as well. But it's so, they're so visual. They are so, yeah, well, thank you. I, that's the way that I write and actually that whole thing of, yes, I do occasionally, it's not necessarily, actually it is sometimes when I'm lying in bed and I can't sleep, I will think myself into the point of the story that I'm at and I will imagine what will happen next. And that's sort of how I plot my books is. So you don't have the, the end sorted?

Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't With one of us I thought I had it sorted But it went slightly differently Oh how exciting Which is really exciting And that often happens to me It's like my characters

If as I get to know them better and better They will do some slightly surprising things So Yeah The way that I plot is not I don't sort of write everything down And have it all on a sort of whiteboard Like one of those sort of serial killer

documentaries that you see on Netflix a lot of it is in my head and then I might sort of handwrite down a few key details and then I start because I need for me I need to get into the voice of the character first to really understand

how they're going to propel the action Oh I love that And do you hear their voices? Nailing it with these questions Do I hear their voices? Sort of I think I do I think I think

I know how they speak but I don't And they will have conversations in my head, but it's not like I actually hear the voice, like it's an audio book narration. But when it comes to audio book narrators, I will always be able to sense if someone is right or not. I'm like, no, that's not Martin.

Okay, then you do. So you know them. So I suppose I do know them so. Yes. Is this going to be made into a TV show? I really hope so, but I don't know. I mean, one of the great imponderables, it's still available for option.

Anyone listening who'd like to sell? Yeah, I think obviously the party is going to be huge success. Lovely. So then one of us will then be picked up because they'll say we need more. I'd love that. Well, I also want to pick up on something astute you said about imagination because you're so right that as novelists, and I write nonfiction too, but as a novelist, imagination is a muscle that you flex. And it is so interesting to me how many people still, particularly with female novelists,

imagine that everything is purely you relating your own life experience or people that you've met a long, the way. And no one is going around saying, why Sebastian Folk's written Bird's Song when he wasn't a First World War soldier? And in fact, I think he made that point when Birdsong was published and became the success that it deserved to be. It's an amazing novel. He would go and promote his book at literary festivals and people would be like, what did you base this on? Did you discover a trove of letters in the attic? And he said, no, I just imagined myself into it. And I think some people find that really confronting. And it's absolutely the case. I've imagined all of these characters and the only person who I have based all of my characters on are parts of me.

That's the only thing. And of course I'm inspired by the people that I meet and I observe people and I observe current affairs. And so there might be little bits that I am influenced by. But you've got, you use this. Exactly. It's my noggin. It's very interesting that I, I mean, I wrote in my book as well that at some age and I don't

know what it is. Yet children. Young people have an imagination. And then something happens to most people when they grow up. It goes. And they say, no, they don't, they lose touch with it. And I think a lot of writers are able to hold on to that. That's so interesting.

I don't know what age it is. I'm so sad. It is. Because actually another word for imagination, I guess, would be dreaming. Imagination is the ultimate day dream. My favourite thing is watching people and then imagining their whole, lives and then disappearing into, you know, now we're in the Eiffel Tower and there are elephants walk. I can picture it all. That's just me. But just open imaginations. And I think that's what books,

I mean, I love, love, love reading. I think books are really important. And I love, you know, many trusts that give books out to schools and to young people who don't have books. Breaks my heart. Breaks my heart. And I love that they hand books out. I think that reading fires our imaginations and that's why we need to do it. Definitely. I worked with a charity called Bookbanks which distributes books in food banks.

Yes, they're wonderful. They are wonderful. And their point, which is a really profound and crucial one, is as well as a physical diet of food, we also need an imaginative diet to nourish ourselves. Absolutely. We really, really do, and you fire that as well. So thank you for that side of it.

Podcast-wise, you're doing sort of offshoots of your podcast now. Where do you see all of that going? Do you want to be doing more big live events? Because you've done a lot of those now. Is that how you see it? Or do you just go, there's no plans? I sort of feel with that there's, I'm going to try that. I'm going to try that.

Totally. I love that. It's like you've literally read my soul. That's so funny. I could see you doing it. That's amazing. You know what I'm thinking about what you're thinking. It's very weird.

I used to be someone with a plan, with a sort of five-year plan, and I would think, oh, I'm going to be political correspondent for the Times newspaper in my 20s, and that it never happened. The plans that I had for myself never came to fruition

because something else would have come along that would have been more interesting or life would have intervened in an unexpected way. And after a while, I just realized that the plan, if I failed, that's my word, to achieve it, made me feel like a failure. I was like, well, why am I self-imposing this unrealistic metric

and making myself feel like that? So I ditched the plan, and I also partly dished the plan, because when I got divorced in my mid-30s, and when I started IVF and it wasn't working out for me, I was like, well, fat lot of kids, good my plan has done me because I thought I'd be here and actually I'm somewhere completely different. And at that point, I found it so liberating actually. It was scary, but it was also

liberating. And I started making decisions much more instinctively to the extent that, you know, I had a staff job on a Sunday newspaper, ran the corner from here actually at the Observer. And I just got to a point where I was like, I need to leave because I'm not going to get what I would like from my career if I stay here and I quit with no other job to go to, which is so unlike the past me and it was an amazing experience and it made me realise that you can kind of do that and I got lots of freelance work and I made it happen and then I launched a podcast because I felt like this interests me. I want to do a different kind of interview from the one that I'm doing for print journalism and I want to talk about failure because I grapple with that too and so it was

very instinctive and I still have that and I don't ever want to lose that because I think it would deaden a part of my creative impetus in a way and so I actually don't know where I see myself which I feel like you're not meant to admit but I don't know why I think that's wonderful isn't that fantastic I mean I think I just feel freer because of it and so it's essentially I think my guiding principles is I want to put work into the world that I would have liked to have exist when I was going through something. So fertility, I would have loved to have picked up a book and read about my experience, listened to a podcast and felt seen. So I put a lot of that work into the world. Dating, when I was dating in my late 30s and it was a hellfire and I know it's

got so much worse, but I did actually meet my husband on Hinge, so I'm forever grateful for it. I was like, oh, I would have loved a sort of how to guide. And that's why I produced a podcast called How to Date, which I presented with Mel Schilling. And it's like an eight-week boot camp for anyone who's like going through it. And so that's one of my guiding principles. So I suppose maybe it's like what's the next thing that I feel needs to exist. It will just go and create it.

Yeah. How wonderful. You are honestly, you are a joy spreader, but you're a really good soul. And I feel blessed to be in your presence. I really do every single time I see you, and I'm very lucky to know you outside of the craziness of this industry, and you are a wonderful soul.

There we go. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you so much for having me, and I think that's one of the loveliest things anyone has ever said to me. Thank you. Right back at you.