That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Ella Mills

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

Ella Mills; founder of 'Deliciously Ella' joins Gaby on this week's episode of the podcast. Ella sits down for a truly open and honest chat about her successes, failures and a few of the obstacles life has thrown her way. They of course talk about Ella's brand new book 'How To Go Plant Based' as well as her family life, her business and the seemingly huge escalation in fame since her business came to be. This is not one to be missed.Ella's brand new book 'How To Go Plant Based' is available to buy right now from all good bookstores and at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Deliciously-Ella-How-Plant-Based-Definitive/dp/1529313775/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=how+to+go+plant+based+ella+mills&qid=1662638547&sprefix=how+to+go+plant%2Caps%2C220&sr=8-1 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

and welcome to That Gabby Roslin podcast, part of the ACAST creator network. Ella Mills, aka Deliciously Ella, is my guest this week. She's a phenomenal and determined woman who has had a fair share of successes and failures, and she discusses why and how both are vitally important. Her life and that of her wider family over the past few years has changed beyond recognition. She talks so openly about those changes in her. her family, her business and her life. Even though I've interviewed Ella many times over the past seven years, I was truly blown away by her passion and honesty. I have all of her books on our

shelves, including her excellent new book, How to Go Plant Based. I do hope you enjoy listening to lovely Ella. Don't forget, you can keep up to date by following and subscribing please to the podcast, where a new episode is released every Monday. Leave us a rating on the Apple Podcast app, And whilst you're there, why not leave us a review? We love to hear your thoughts. Now, on with the show. This makes me so happy to see you, Ella, because the last time we saw each other,

you were pregnant with your first baby, and I swear that was about two weeks ago. I know, it feels like it, and she just turned three a few weeks ago, which is just mad. And then I had a kind of secret pandemic baby. You did tell me. It wasn't really a secret.

But I didn't really see anyone, because I was about eight or nine weeks pregnant, I think. I really just found out I was pregnant when we went into lockdown. And then obviously especially at the beginning of COVID, you know, when we didn't really understand what was what. There was a lot of advice for if you were pregnant to kind of effectively shield and stay at home. So I lay very, very, very low. And I didn't really see anyone.

And then she was born. And she was born in October 2020. And we, for a few weeks, it was fine. Then we had that November national lockdown. And then I think we had sort of two weeks in London where we're based before, do you remember the cancelled Christmas? Yeah. we all went back in. So basically she spent her first six months in lockdown. So I went in

eight weeks pregnant which no one even knew about and I came out with a six month old. But it's so weird. It's like a strange time warp. So your kids never had that baby mother meeting other moms and babies thing. No, they didn't really have any of it. Do you think they felt it? A lot of people say that babies are quite clingy. Yeah, it's interesting. I think we were maybe lucky in the sense of, well, lucky and not lucky. I went back to work in some capacity when Sky, who's my older one,

was four weeks old, which was awful. Don't get me wrong. It was really difficult. I'm not kind of celebrating it. But exactly, needs must. And so, but I would take her to work with me loads. And so for the first seven months of her life, she actually was so out in the world all day, every day,

you know, traveling around London, and all kinds of noises and different people. So I felt quite lucky that she'd had kind of quite big exposure to the world before her world got so small. And then May, she was, yeah, she really struggled when we came out because she'd spent six months. She'd literally not seen anyone else. You know, she'd met my mum kind of once or twice.

And she did find those first few months really hard, but it's kind of come out of it, the other side. But Sky started nursery just when we came out of lockdown as she was turning two. and she found that very, very difficult. How was she about it? She's all right now. Oh my God, she loves it so much.

We took her back for the new term a few days ago. And I was like, are we, we're either the best or the worst parents, but we're definitely not in the middle of this continuum because all the children were really upset to be going back and wanting to stay with their moms and their parents. And Sky was just standing there saying, I can't wait, I can't wait, I can't wait, I can't wait, and just ran in. But that's fantastic.

So I was thrilled. I was thrilled. But I was also like, oh, should she miss me a little bit? I know, but you know what? You spend, even now minor, much older, 15 and 21, you still think all of those same things. Oh, I bet. Never stopped.

I bet. Never stopped. So you, I'm talking of never stopping. So the very first time we met, you hadn't launched your range. So you just had your blog and I think you, your first cookbook. I reckon it would have been maybe the first cookbook. So when was that? So that would have been early 2015.

So kind of seven and a half years ago. You've done. much in that time. Yeah, it's honestly. I mean, nobody, in the nicest possible way, of course people knew you, but you hadn't become, and I'm going to use the word very fluidly, and I hate the word, but celebrity, oh, you hadn't become well known, let's use that word, for everybody. And it's, the change, so it's actually quite fast. Yeah, it's been, I kind of feel a little bit like we've been in a washing machine for seven years. I mean, also on a personal level as well, because, you know, I just met my husband, my wife, my wife,

my now husband at that point when our husband came out. We were engaged by that summer. We were married within the year. That all went very quickly. So quickly. And we decided that we'd start the business together. He quit his job, came in a CEO of Delicious Leela.

And the plan was really for me to keep building the brand. And the mission and kind of the concept, and he would build the actual business behind that, which is what we do now is very much divide and conquer. So we've been doing now. We've launched over 40 products into like six different countries, almost 10,000 stores across the different countries. But, and we've opened a restaurant and we have opened three cafes, closed two of them,

turned one of them into a restaurant. All of this is just incredible. Six books, a podcast, you know, you kind of, the most ridiculous amount of professional things and probably too many things. But then on a personal level, we've also had two children. We've moved house three times. My parents got divorced and both repartnered up. My husband lost his mom.

you know, we've kind of gone, it's just, it's been fast forward kind of on like 30 times. You know, when your Sky Remote goes really, really, really fast. It feels a bit like that's been the last seven years. I mean, that's sort of blown my mind because, so when, like I said, so you just had your first cookbook out, you weren't married and then you, the next time I saw you, suddenly you, it was only about a second later, you were married and you had the business and I met you and your husband. And then the next time it was you had the cafes, I remember going to the one,

and then, yeah, as you said, it closed. But I remember going there and contacting you and saying, oh my God, this is amazing. Are you ever going to stop? And literally, no, there is the answer. But that's great. And it's so enthusiastic. I mean, I love your enthusiasm for life.

I didn't mean it's so enthusiastic. I love your enthusiasm for life and your husband. And you're very, you're not goal-driven. You're sort of world domination-driven. It's not, you don't just have one goal. You just go, come on, let's see, we can do this. we can do. And I love that of you. I respect that of somebody that doesn't just say, right, we're focusing on just one thing. Definitely. And I think it's a really interesting one.

I mean, I remember Matthew saying it when we got together and he was looking at what I was doing at Delicious Leela and it was that moment where we went from very niche online to suddenly existing in the mainstream. And he's always said it and I don't think I kind of understood it as much at the time, I really, really believe it now, which is that, you know, quite literally, opportunities don't grow on trees. Like, you get these moments in your life where there's an opportunity. And it's terrifying often at times. And it requires massive compromises and big decisions. And you kind of have to go for it or it's not going to come around again. And I think that was very much our sense. You know, lots of people say, why have you gone so fast? You know,

why don't you just stop doing this or stop doing that? People say that to you. Oh, all the time. People say you should stop. Well, you know, and I met especially when our children were born, more so sky because with May it was lockdown. But, you know, you shouldn't be back at work. I mean, it's... Everybody with their opinions. Yeah, it's a kind of wild concept that in itself.

But it is this thing that, you know, you're so lucky in life when you've got an interesting opportunity you could run after. But you do have to run after it. And I always, I'm really keen to say that because I think also people look at businesses and brands, and they think, oh, that's great. It is so relentless and you are constantly running. And I do think in that sort of example, like you either go forwards or backwards,

you can't stand still. If you stand still, you go backwards. It's just the reality. And so I think it has been, you know, we've been so lucky to have an opportunity like we've had. So you say if you stand still, you go backwards. For you, you didn't stand still, but some things did fall, as you just said. And you're very open about all of that as well. And there's the whole, and in America, they're far more congratulatory about failure.

I mean, I think that word obviously has negative connotations. You didn't fail. That part didn't work, maybe. But they salute it and they say you learn from that. Do you, are you of that school? Oh, my gosh. I think this idea that you go through life and don't continuously fail is absurd. And I don't just mean on a professional level.

I just mean generally personally and professionally. We all collectively get so much wrong. That might just be tiny decisions, like not bringing an umbrella and being soaking wet or big decisions. But I do think this idea that we should constantly succeed is just absurd. You won't, a, it's impossible because if you're going to put yourself out there and be vulnerable and try something new, there's no way to get it right every time. So I think accepting that is really important.

I do think, I think it's a Reid Hoffman. quote, but Matthew remember saying it right at the beginning and it's true. It's something we've both really lived by, which is that if you are going to fail, you should fail fast. And I think that very much goes hand in hand with accepting that failure is an inevitable part of the process. And so always be on the lookout for it, acknowledge when something's not quite right and then change direction. Because if you keep saying, I'm not going to fail, I'm not going to fail, I'm not going to fail, then you often get so deeply entrenched in the problem that you end up failing on a more epic proportion because you're so stuck that you haven't pivoted and you haven't changed and then

you get to the end of the road. See, I think that's such good advice. I mean, for anybody who's starting up in a business or actually anything. It's anything relationships, whatever. Exactly. I totally agree. I think that's so applicable to all aspects of your life. If something's not right, it's a very difficult thing to call it. But the sooner you call it, the better. I can't really think of any example where that's not the case. And I don't just mean like quit and give up when going gets tough because you've got to get through that as well and your life can be incredibly difficult again both personally and professionally but i think you know when it's not just a difficult patch that probably has a solution when actually you've made the wrong decision

were you always like this will you like this as a child obviously i mean you know there's no secret your background and uh your family and and your husband's family but were you brought up like this through the family or was it something that you found when you were ill we'll talk about your illness in a moment but where did that come from? So really interesting question we've actually at home me talking about it quite a lot in how the way we were brought up has kind of shaped us especially on a professional level and our outlook on what we do because I think we have realised that we've had to get back up a thousand and one times and it's you know there's definitely days where you think I just don't know if I can do that one more time and obviously again you know we've had kind of three once in a generation

events in two and a half years between lockdowns and COVID, Brexit and now hyperinflation. And that's obviously not easy by any means. And I think it's interesting. So as you said, it's no secret. My great, great, great grandfather started Sainsbury's. And it was my grandfather and his brothers and his cousin. They were the last people of the family to work in the business. And they took it public. And I mean, this was decades before I was born. But I think there was this entrenched and very subconscious belief that actually the impossible was possible. And I think it's really interesting. And my dad, you know, grew up in a, you know, quite challenging background, didn't have any money or anything. He was the first person in his family to finish school. And he went to Cambridge, got a double first, ended up

politician. And he met my mother-in-law, so both in the cabinet together. And again, she, you know, not had the easiest background and had made this incredible eye for herself and was a, minister in Tony Blair's cabinet and I think we both just had this sense that like things that feel quite impossible clearly are possible but no one ever no one talked about it in that way but I think it created a kind of quite subconscious belief it must be yes it it must be there it's sort of entrenched in your in your parents and and in his parents I love the fact because they were opposite on opposite sides weren't they no they worked together they work together they work the Labour government together.

Oh, I thought they were on. My dad started off in the Conservative Party. He was conservative originally. And then over various different policies, but fundamentally the end over gay marriage, he and different challenges in the policy there, he crossed the floor. So yeah, that is, that's what I was talking about. They, you know, they were opposite. I was right then.

They were opposite sides. Yeah. And the bill that that was connected to was actually amazing. Someone then gave him for his wedding present because he married his husband this year. So it's really, really sweet. But anyway, so yeah, there was this kind of unwritten. I actually haven't talked to my parents about it. But we both have realised maybe that has shaped us more than we realized before.

So you've never had that conversation with your parents? Not about, yeah, this sense of, because I think that's what I've identified it as, because I do think the mentality that we've probably had to have over the last seven years is thinking outside the box again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. believing that we could take a tiny blog and turn it into a cafe and then we could turn it into a line of food products and then we could have an ambition to become the largest plant-based you know food company in Europe and then we could launch in Switzerland and we could launch in this and then we could do this and that next thing.

And it's kind of absurd to some extent. No, it's not absurd. But it's out of the box, right? I think it is, you know, I'm not going to get a conventional job. I'm going to turn this blog into something. This was before that was a kind of normal industry effectively. And that I haven't talked to my family about. But I think that's how the two of us have kind of deduced it.

But also your families, as you say, they came, they worked hard. They came, you know, they got to where they wanted to get to. And the determination, I think that's a word I'd like to use. I love the word determination. I don't think it's used enough, actually. Oh, you see. And people give it a negative thing. People always say, God, you're very determined, don't you?

And I knew what I wanted to do when I was very little. I go, yeah, but I don't think determined. It doesn't mean you have to hurt people. And I don't, you and your husband haven't gone and elbowed people out the way. Your dad, you know, he crossed the floor. He didn't, all of those things, there's a determination to do the right thing.

And you're doing it for the right reasons. You're not doing it because you're saying, oh, you know what? We want to be really rich and we want a big house and that's all we want. You're doing this because you actually passionately care about food and you care about people being healthy. So it's, I'm going to use determination.

I'm handing you that word. Yeah, no, I love that word. And I actually totally agree. And it's, people often ask that, like, what's the motivation? And especially because, as I said, you know, owning your own business, it's, it's really, it's relentless. It's really difficult. And you'll have days where you think, oh, God, we're going bust or, you know, this problem's unsmountable or, you know, so on and so forth. And I think for me, the determination definitely comes, as you said, from that kind of deeper sense of purpose and mission. And that's what keeps me going. I think this, sense of, you know, obviously I changed the way I lived and it changed my life. And I think that sense that you could do that for someone else gives you a determination and a motivation to push

through even when it feels quite tough. See, okay, let's, because you're paying it forward. So let's talk about, and it was Pots that you had. Now, for people who don't know, I know a young person who has it and is struggling and I've handed over all of your books. Oh, thank you. And I know that they are feeling a lot better. So explain what Pots is for people who don't know. Yeah, of course. It's postural tachycardia syndrome. So I was diagnosed with that in 2011. And I was at university and I was living a normal life and out of nowhere, I became very, very ill and spent a while in now of various different hospitals, in all sorts of different consultants, you know, neurologists, gastroenterologists and endocrinologists, it just sort of went on and

on and I had MRIs and endoscopies and colonoscopies and ultrasounds and wake up in hospital to a poster note saying nil by mouth and you know because they were running the next series of tests and this went on and it went on and no one could understand what it was and went through a multitude of different possible diagnoses before we finally landed on what it was and it's characterized by a dysregulation of your autonomic nervous system so effectively and it does bear similarities I think to long COVID. It's the first time I've been able to liken it to something that I think people can relate to to a extent,

which is that it's largely invisible, which I found incredibly difficult as a 21-year-old because you can't, it's not a disease most people had heard of or an illness most people had heard of. And you couldn't see it for the most part. The only thing is I had really chronic stomach issues with it. So I actually looked more pregnant when I was ill than I did when I was about six and a half months pregnant with Sky.

So that was the thing. that you could see. But otherwise I couldn't control my heart rate, so I'd sit down, my heart rate would be normal and I'd stand up and it'd be 180, 190 automatically. Blood pressure drops with that. So you become chronically dizzy, you lose your vision, you can black out. I had chronic fatigue. I had chronic infections. I spent three and a half years with a continuous UTI. I used to have, I got ended up with scarring from it. I used to have to go to hospital for antibiotic drips. I think the longest I spent off antibiotics in that time was about 48 hours

and then they had chronic headaches, chronic pain basically, you name I had it and I was on steroids, I tried beta blockers I tried antacids, you know, I was on 20 medications a day at one point. It's just heartbreaking at 21 and going through this for as you say, three years, three and a half years. Yeah and it's yeah I guess that.

Psychologically it must have really played with you mental health-wise, it must have been so much and at the time I don't think I realized almost the extent to which it was happening. You know, I do remember very clearly being at my home, my dad's saying, you're depressed. You know, we now need to deal with that condition as well effectively. You know, we need to take, you need to go and see someone. You might need more medication. And I remember being so hostile to that because I was like, I can't, I just can't take anything else. Like, you can't tell me anything else is not working in my mind,

in my body. I kind of, I was so dejected. I was so kind of given up on life at that point. But in retrospect, it had a kind of catastrophic effect on my mental well-being. And I think interestingly, looking back on it, I think it actually has taken me so much longer to recover mentally than physically. You know, after about three, three and a half years, I came off my medication. I was very stable, I have been ever since, which is amazing. But I would say it took me a lot, lot longer to build up a sense of self-esteem, self-worth, self-confidence, of not feeling, other. So it's been an interesting experience that. It's, what's so interesting is seeing you all those years ago and then seeing you now,

the difference is it is quite extraordinary. I mean, there's a, like you're really there, you're grounded, you know, what you are and what you're doing. And before it was, you know, there was, you were timid. Of course, you know, I remember talking about that saying, you're putting yourself out there and you seemed quite timid. And now it's that determination. side again. I'm going to use that word again. Yeah, no, and you're absolutely right. And I think it was interesting because I started Delicious Leela as a way of teaching myself to cook and changing my lifestyle to try and help me, which obviously it has. It is. Look at you. But I never started it to exist in the public space. I never started it to create a business as such. And I, you know,

I was so young and I basically been on my own with my mum for all the time before Deliciouslyeella took off and I was doing it from my parents' kitchen and it was a very personal project in that sense. And then suddenly it exploded. And, you know, that would have been when we met, kind of early 2015. And I'd gone from writing in my parents' kitchen in the safety and a kind of almost anonymous nature. I can never say anonymity. But no one knowing who I was effectively.

And I could, you know, I just did that for my parents' kitchen. It felt safe. And suddenly I was, you know, being talked about rather than being talked to, you know, kind of had pick up across the whole of the whole of the. media landscape of the UK, you know, got invited to come and talk to you on your radio show and so on and so forth. And I had zero prep or readiness for it. But that was coupled with the fact that I also had been coming out of an time of like such extraordinarily low self-esteem and self-worth and self-confidence that, you know, I just, I just wasn't ready for it. And I did have a

moment that summer, kind of six months after the first book came out and things were kind of exploded where I had really, really crippling anxiety and I felt like I can go out the house. I really struggled with anyone ever recognizing me or because you'd notice people would sometimes notice you and then they talk to their friend and whisper. And just, it's tough. I just couldn't really, I really, nothing prepares you for that. Yeah. And I think because I was coming at it from a kind of quite mentally, I hate using the word weak, but just a challenging mental stance, I also didn't have that kind of like self

You didn't have the armour. Exactly. All the tools to deal with it and it happened so, so fast. And I really wondered if I did want to keep going and if this was what I wanted to do with my life, because it was one of those moments where I could have easily quit and just gone and done something else. But I really felt kind of, you know, I was hearing more and more from people saying this is making a massive difference to my life.

This is changing my life. So I did continue. And obviously I'm thrilled that I did. But it's been a big kind of, yeah, personal. So I, you've, you've, why you should remember but I but I remember so you'd been on the first time and then I bumped into you somewhere and you were have you were very anxious and you said I don't know if I can do this I can't remember where it was I it might have been your cafe I can't yeah it might well have been

and and and and I just I remember giving you a hug and saying to you you can do this and you went but nobody nobody told me that this is going to be like this and I'm I think you know you were you were very much you felt that you were, that you shouldn't be where you were and how did you get to where you were and everyone was talking about you. And we won't mention the particular newspaper because I hate that newspaper and that particular newspaper had written something. And you said, oh, but why did they write that? And I just said, just, you just got to let go of all of that. So now, all these books later, all of the, all of the products later, the most important thing, before we actually talk about your new book, which I love, I have it open. It says,

And I see it's my favourite. Corn and polenta spring onion fritters, which I've made. Oh, very good. That's why it's open. But all of that, the fact that this actually did make you well is the most important thing. So yes, your anxiety, all of the things and your family and your kids and all of that, of course they're important. But you made yourself better. So people have got to listen.

It's now, please listen. Food can make you better. food can make you ill. So why isn't everybody just doing this? Oh my gosh. I just, goodness me. I don't even know how to start answering that question. It's kind of the crux of my life, really.

It really is. Which is that we're in this impossible place almost as a society, which is that, you know, 60%-ish of our calories as adults are from ultra-processed food. And it's more, it's closer. 60%? Yeah, but it's closer to 70% in children. One in five kids get the five a day, one in four adults. You know, we get about half the fiber we need, et cetera.

You know, and we see this now. You know, we see the crippling effects of the way that we live our lives on the way that we eat, but also the fact that we don't move and stress levels, etc., you know, beyond just what's on our play. You know, in this chronic rise in lifestyle related diseases, on the crippling effect that is having on our NHS. You know, you see every day a new piece of newspaper, you know, yesterday running three times a week reduces your risk of cancer. You know, today it's artificial sweeteners and heart attacks or, you know, whatever it is. We know.

No one can argue at this point. I was on a panel at another newspaper festival last weekend, which was an extraordinary experience of phenomenal mansplaying and misogyny. And I will name. You surprised me. I will name no name. I can guess the newspaper. Somehow. It was an economist, you know, a very, very successful and respected economist.

He was sitting there arguing that there was no data whatsoever that unhealthy diet impacts our health and costs. Sorry? It was extraordinary. It was honestly extraordinary. But he was so aggressive in this conversation. I ended up just sitting in silence because I just thought this is mad. But anyway, it is, you know, we have reached this impossible tipping point where the way that we eat is effectively dire. We have a cost of living crisis that's only going to make this much, much worse.

We have a government that seems to have absolutely no interest whatsoever in tackling it. And I think with the move that we've got at the moment, we're going to go even further away from that to... Oh, they don't want to tackle that. They don't want to tackle climate change. They're all interrelated. I mean, it's absolutely shocking. Yeah. And I, you know, I think it's just, I just don't really know how to some extent we turn the tide, except for the fact that we've got to.

And I think the only thing I take as positive as I think more and more just everyday people are engaging in these conversations. They are interested in it. You know, 60% of children in the UK are either vegan or vegetarian or would like to be in a huge amount of that's for environmental reasons. So I do think there's a lot of hope in a younger generation actually trying to change the status quo. But, you know, I think it's conversations like this.

it's the work that everybody collectively does to try and make healthy living, whether that's what you're cooking at home or the way you're exercising, just a bit more accessible, a bit more plausible, a bit more enjoyable, a bit less daunting. You know, we have seen that change. You know, the world does in that sense are very different than it did 10 years ago, which is great. But I think the biggest challenge is that it's very difficult to talk about this. And it's very difficult to have these conversations and be honest about the reality of our health. Why?

Well, I think the, you know, there's nervousness of cancelled culture and there's, you know, a kind of political correctness and, you know, a wokeness of saying the wrong things. And I do think that plays a really big part in it, which is interesting and really difficult to deal with. It's, I mean, I've banged on about, been banging on about health and nutrition for 26 years when dad was diagnosed about bowel cancer. mum had lung cancer. And so I wanted to learn everything I could about what we're putting in our bodies, how we exercise, all of those things. And that's, as I said, 26 years ago. And I would say it's only in the past six or seven years that people haven't laughed in my face.

But I've always said this. And, you know, we got a lot of criticism kind of a few years after Delicious Yellow really started, you know. Of the clean living thing. Yeah. For, you know, healthy eating being this terrible. curse that we were spreading. And I just find it so fascinating. And at the time, I just didn't, you know, come back to what we were talking about earlier.

I just didn't really have the confidence to kind of, you know, I did kind of come out against it to an extent. But I wouldn't have had the confidence to do what I would do now. But I think there is this extraordinary irony is if what we were doing was making baking books about double triple chocolate cakes and telling you to like, you know, eat more process cake and, you know, all the rest of it. we would have no problem. I don't think I would have had any criticism

if that's what I was doing. If I was like covering things and sprinkles and jelly babies, I just genuinely genuinely had on heart. Do not think I would have had any of the criticism that I've had. And I think that is a real problem. Like we do collectively really struggle with being told we need to eat better, but we do. You know, I think if you look at the narrative

in the media, that is fundamentally the case. And I do think it's important to say, and again, it's not something I would have said in the past. That criticism is almost unilaterally directed out women. You know, every piece of criticism that I've ever had is almost always grouped in with other women. And, you know, for example, we've never actually talked about weight loss. I'd never go near it is a terrifying subject given cancel culture, etc.

But, you know, we've been criticized for all manner of things, whereas men in this space whose whole career is about weight loss have never been included. It's very interesting. Lovely Dale Pinnock, who I'm sure you must have come across. Yeah, he's wonderful. And he's, he was the medicinal chef, as he is known as well. But he talks about all of this so openly. And I bet he doesn't get the abuse.

I've never seen him included in one of his articles. Now I don't want him included. I think he's fantastic. I'm absolutely respecting. Absolutely. Oh, gosh. Yes. a caveat, but I just mean again, there's kind of no two ways around the fact that it's almost always women attacking women.

And I do think it comes back to the fact that it's so challenging because to your point about why can't we change the way we eat, such an emotive and personal and nuanced topic that is very linked to our obsession with the way that women look and their aesthetics. And I think the challenges is you basically can't detangle any of this. And so I think when we talk about the way we eat, we often take it as a public. personal assault, as opposed to something that's kind of more generally applicable and absolutely nothing to do with us as individuals. God, this is fascinating. So I do love your book, and we will talk about it.

And this isn't, you're not on this just to plug this book, but I want to talk about it because I love it. How to Go Plant-based. What's so nice about this new book is, and as I said to you when you were on the radio show about it, the recipes are simple, easy, not expect. And I think because we're all facing this winter is going to be very difficult for a lot of people. But they're really flavourful, but they're very family friendly. So it's like this came out and you didn't know that we were about to be going into what we're going into.

And it's perfect timing. Yeah, no, obviously had no idea. But I do know that again, like I think there are clear barriers for people in trying to change their diet and trying to eat healthy. healthily and I think you know we know from what we see at deliciousialla number one is time and things just you know taking forever and so that was something I wanted

to kind of tackle number number two is the fact that I think healthy eating you know has exploded over the last decade but it has exploded hand in hand with the kind of wellness industry which is fundamentally and can be quite confusing and filled

with a lot of gasmos and good sorry Gizmos and gadgets. It can be filled with a lot of gizmoses and gadgets and just expensive things, you know, 90 pound a month, green powder supplement type things. Oh my gosh. And so I think trying to show people that that can be what's healthy.

And if you like doing that, that's no judgment on it. But what fundamentally we all need to do is eat more carrots and potatoes and lentils. And so I think for me really stripping it back again in this book. I love it. So let's make it flavour some. But then equally, let's make it a plausible thing. which is that when you don't have much time, you're coming home from work,

you can get the ingredients of Tesco's or at Sainsbury's, you know, the local store on your way home and make these things in relatively short amount of time. Yes, exactly. And anyone can make these. And you can do it with the family. But also you've got experts in there. I mean, you're an expert anyway, but you've got a whole bunch of, I mean, it's really, it's a really good book. And what was really nice is that I saw my youngest daughter, my 15-year-old,

who's vegetarian, out of choice. She says she didn't want, and she's not vegan, but she's vegetarian. And my oldest daughter has, will only have, she has chicken and it's free range and organic. So they do, I mean, they do have a mum who does go on about it a lot, hopefully in a nice way. But I saw my 15-year-old looking at your book and she was flicking to it. And it was, oh, oh, look, I'm going to make that tonight. And I love that. And that's how, I think cooking with the family, because we all are lacking time, I'm,

I'm the same as you. I run everywhere. I absolutely do. It's like running to the next thing, running to the next thing. But if we can just find that time to do something as a family, that's also really valuable because the conversations are around at the table together. Those moments of being together or cooking together. And actually, that's what this book's about. I hope that's what you meant. Oh my gosh, it's exactly what I meant. And it is. And that was the blessing of lockdown, actually, is that we had dinner together every night. And it was just when Sky was starting to eat. And, you know, literally we had dinner with her.

every single night at 5 o'clock, which is also my favourite thing in the world. So much better for you. So good. But it was amazing. Absolutely amazing. It was really interesting as well to your point about cooking together and notice. She's so much more curious and willing to try things if we're eating together. Yeah, perfect.

Well, congratulations on this book. And the products, you are everywhere, as you say. Okay, let's just forget that you've had the past seven years, that when you go into a shop and you see your products, do you get a threat? Do you just think, oh my God, that's us? Yeah, I know it's, I really do every time because you just can't quite believe it.

And I think it's kind of twofold the reason. I think the first is it's just extraordinary and it's so exciting. And you're like, wow, we did this, we made this and it's got our name on it. But I think the second thing is also almost, I think I'm continuously surprised by how interested people are in this topic now. You know, I think that is at that as well, which is that you just, you'd never have seen, you know, plant-based products on shelf in this way 10 years ago. So I think it does mark a nice change in direction.

Your balls in the nicest possible, your hazelnut, those, oh my God, I have to stop. We have them at home. I love them. But there we go. The hazelnut ones and the armor ones. Yeah. They just, they feel like you're being really naughty. But they've got like five ingredients.

in them. Just delicious. Anyway, this isn't an advert for your products, but I love them and I do eat them. And I think you're gorgeous. I really do. And I love that you're still out there and you're doing what you do. And don't let any stupid idiot stop you doing what you do. Just carry on. Just do it. Just do it. Thank you. So lovely to see you. You always need to hear that. So thank you. No, I so appreciate it. Thanks for being on. Thank you so much for listening. Coming up next week, the wonderful, Stan up and actress Kerry Godleman. We talk about Trigger Point. We talk about Whistible Pearl. We talk about

the reaction to her in the streets. And of course, we talk about Ricky Javees and afterlife. That Gabby Roslyn podcast is proudly presented to you by Cameo Productions with music by Beth McCarie. If you wouldn't mind, could you give us a like, a fallen, a subscribe, and please leave a review? We read them all and love to see what you've got to say. See you next week.