That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Emma Gannon

Episode Date: June 13, 2021

In this episode Gaby chats to Emma Gannon - Sunday Times bestselling author, teacher, blogger and host of the number 1 careers podcast in the UK called ‘Ctrl Alt Delete’. They discuss the funny reality of finding a career, the power of social media for positivity and dealing with internet trolls. They talk about her teaching and the impact that a teacher's encouragement can have on someone’s life. Plus, her love of comedians Eddie Izzard and Micky Flanagan and that when she’s at dinner parties she wants to ask people what they do in their spare time to enrich their life, not what job they do! For more information on the sponsor of this episode: LinkedIn Jobs - to post a job for free visit www.linkedin.com/GABY Terms and conditions apply. Produced by Cameo Productions, music by Beth Macari.  Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter @gabyroslin #thatgabyroslinpodcast  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Gabby Roslin here. Thank you so much for listening. I was so interested to chat to this week's guest. She is a Sunday Times bestselling author, teacher, blogger, and host of the number one careers podcast in the UK called Control Alt Delete. It's Emma Gannon. She is fascinating. We chat about the funny reality of finding a career, the power of social media for positivity, and how to deal with internet trolls. We talk about her brilliant teaching and the impact that encouragement from a teacher can have on someone's life. Plus, her love of comedians Eddie Isard and Mickey Flanagan, and I love that when she talks to people at dinner parties, she wants to ask people what they do in their spare time,

not what job they do. Enjoy. Please can I ask you a favour? Would you mind, please, following and subscribing by pressing the follow or subscribe button on the show. Now, I have to tell you, this really honestly does not cost any money. It's completely free. then if you wouldn't mind, rate and review on Apple Podcasts, which is the purple app on your iPhone or iPad.

You simply scroll down to the bottom of all of the episodes and you'll see the stars where you can tap to rate and press write a review. It would mean the world to us. Thank you so much. Hello, Emma Gannon. Hello, thanks for having me. Oh, it's so lovely to talk to you because I listen to you all the time. I listen to you all the time as well, so we're doing a bit of a crossover. It's very exciting.

Mutual Appreciation Society. Do you know what I find so exciting about these days? As a career, you can be called a podcaster. Because, I mean, people know you for your podcast. They know you feel writing. I mean, you're brilliant writing. And you're a teacher as well. But being called a podcaster, I just think that's so great.

I love it. I love looking at the iTunes homepage and just seeing so many different people on there from huge broadcasters like Stephen Fry to, you know, independent shows where it's just two teenagers in their bedroom. Like, it's amazing. I love it. And but you were very early on to all of this. I mean, living online was how you started, really, wasn't it? Yeah, I guess it was. I am a millennial and wrote a lot about that because I think growing up on dial-up internet, you kind of get to know it in a new way. It

wasn't like we just got handed an iPhone. We kind of grew up with the internet and a long, side it. So you're kind of living through quite an interesting period of time, I think. And now it's so funny because I am not on TikTok. I don't understand a lot of stuff that Gen Z are doing now. So I'm in this kind of weird middle limbo, it feels. You've just really shocked me. I would have thought you knew how it all worked. I mean, if I was to have a question, I'd sort of, I'd call you up, although I don't have you a number. But you know what I mean? I'd call you up and I'd say, oh, what's this? You'd say, ah, well, Gabby, Let me explain it. But you feel stuck in this weird world.

Yeah, well, I think, you know, millennials are in their 30s and 40s now. And I think we've always been the young, cool one in the meeting room for a long time. And then suddenly it flips. And suddenly that's not the case anymore. I've got a 23-year-old coming on my show in a few weeks, and I've just been reading her book. And I feel, I feel like I'm going to be old while interviewing her and just kind of reflecting on what I was doing when I was 17, because she was saying that she'd started her own business on Instagram when she was 17. So I think things have changed so much. Hold on, you really don't, you really don't mean you're going to feel old.

I don't feel old. I just feel that I'm not in my 20s anymore. So you kind of associate that, I suppose, with a different level of success or a different life choice or slowing down. I think that it's the same for all people know that you've reached a milestone. I think 30 is quite big for women. It's quite an interesting milestone for women. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I don't know because, of course, I've got years to go until I turn 30. She lies. But, look, but see, for me, ages, and as corny as it sounds, is just a number because I'm not having anybody ever say to me, oh, you're too old to do this, or you can't wear this, or you mustn't do this, or you know, when, if you do reels or something on Instagram,

I go, oh, at your age, even if anyone said that to me, I'd go mad. Yeah, I mean, I have half. siblings who were in their late 40s, one of my sisters was 50. And to me, she will always be the same age, which is like a 30 year old. You know, I don't think age has the same meaning to it maybe anymore. I think we're all quite similar. As in I dress the same as her. We talk about the same things. We're really close. I don't see her as being 50. And when I think about it, I think, wow, yeah, we are 20 years apart, but it doesn't feel the same as it used to maybe. Oh, I love that.

Oh, you can stay. I'll talk to you every day. Thank you very much. So now you actually, you studied English and film. What was the moment that, that as I said, author, podcaster, teacher, I want to talk about your teaching as well because you're, they're brilliant. But what was the point at which this all became the career and not the English and film at Southampton, if you see what I mean? Well, I did that standard thing where I went to university and picked a random subject. Well, not random, but just very, very, very, very. broad so that I could make sense of it later down the line, I suppose. So picked English to film, absolutely loved the course and Southampton has an amazing big library and I geeked out in there and I did go out loads as well, but I also love books. Realise that was a real passion. And then graduated and sort of didn't really know what to do. I remember Googling, what do I do with an English degree. It was that basic. Really? Yeah. And then I... What did it say? Oh, it said go into PR, which is what I did. And I've realized that having PR skills and having marketing skills

and knowing how to sell something or to reach people and connect with people, it's actually the basis of everything we do as creatives, I think. You know, knowing how to sell my book and PR my book is really useful. So it was never wasted. But yeah, that's what I did at the beginning. But when you were at university, okay, so you googled what to do afterwards, which I love that. But you must have gone in with some ideas of what you're going to do. Was it literally open? Were you just thinking, hey, I don't know, whatever comes my way I'm going to do? Well, I thought, I mean, I graduated into a recession.

It was 2010. And at university, I remember someone coming in and saying, half of you will be lucky to get a job. So good luck. It wasn't exactly empowering or exciting. It was quite scary, actually. Lovely, optimistic. Yeah, it was really depressing.

And they were just saying, get any job. And, you know, that's what we did. That's what a lot of my year did. Sorry, really. Yeah. This is, I'm really shocked by that because there's somebody now because you've become a teacher as well. And I would hate to ever say that to anybody. Oh, well, it's not going to happen.

You know, when people say I want to be a TV presenter, have you got any advice? I'd just say, follow your dreams. But I would never say, no, don't do it because most people aren't in work. I just think that's such a negative thing to say. Yeah, it was very scaremong. and I, you know, I was quite entrepreneurial at one of my jobs in my spare time and I started earning money on the side of a job. And I think nowadays people would think, oh, great, my side hustle's going really well. I'll quit my job and I can make that work. But I was so scared to quit because

of all those scaremongery things that people told me at uni that I stuck in a, I was stuck in a job I didn't like for longer than I should have been, if that makes sense. So I think that's why I do what I do now and why I write my books and why I am a teacher and why I'm doing a lot of work with the world literacy foundation, getting young kids into reading and writing and following their dreams because I guess no one really said that to me. That's such a shame. How was your family though? Were they more supportive? Really supportive, but I didn't know anyone who earned money from writing. That wasn't something I saw. I didn't have any artists in my family, which I always fantasize about when, you know, people say my mum was an artist and just painted all day. I'm

like, oh, that must have been so nice to grow up with that. My parents were really encouraging and my dad started his own business kind of later in life and that did really well. So I think that was a positive impact. But no, everyone had a very normal job in a town, you know. It was like the lawyers and the butchers and the bakers. Everyone had a job. It wasn't normal to go and be an artist to make money from it. See, I love then that you, that you had the support from your parents, but you also didn't listen to those people. God, I'm so, to those lecturers and to those people at university that did that,

don't, don't do it, my God. Can we talk about side hustle? Because you mentioned it already, and obviously that's a big thing that you talk about. But whoever's listening to this, if they're not sure what side hustle is, or if they want to do a side hustle, or be a success at it.

Come on, you're the woman with the best advice for this. Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, I think everyone has passion projects and interests. I don't know if it has to be a side hustle, but I think if you go to any dinner party and sit down next to someone, you might ask them what they do. You might ask them what their job is. But I'm sort of more interested in what people do on the side or what they do for a hobby, whether someone, you know, has some strange interest that they do in the evenings. I think that's what makes us who we are. So if I'm sat next to a lawyer at a dinner party and they actually, I don't know, into gardening. Like I'd much rather actually talk about the gardening. I think I'm interested in the

things we do on the weekends more than the day job sometimes. And that's where the side hustle crosses over. That's that's really what a side thing is. I'm not sure if I like the phrase side hustle anymore. I'm kind of interested in side project or passion project, which I think during this COVID era, we've seen people do have them and they're actually embracing them more than ever perhaps. That's so funny because side hustle seems to go hand in hand with you. And now you don't like that phrase. But actually, we can all change, can all move on. Yeah, I mean, I didn't invent side hustle.

I think it's quite American. And I'm not, I'm not, you know, against it. I still like the phrase. I think it's become more mainstream, which is brilliant. But it also isn't for everyone. And I wouldn't say, you know, you have to have a side hustle. Because I think some people's lives are full enough. I think it's for people who feel like something's missing.

and maybe their job is kind of sucking their soul a little bit and actually doing something they love on a Sunday afternoon can be amazing. And even some doctors even recommend therapy in art or in writing or in having a hobby outside of work. So it's meant to be a positive, it's not meant to be extra work. No, I love that. I have to say, I'm all for it.

I think we all need it actually. And as you say in the past, over the COVID year, as people are now calling it, people have realized how important that is. Definitely. I think we've seen it with people who have been furloughed, even people that I know who never really dabbled in anything on the side. When they had spare time, it was amazing how creative they got. Someone I know made masks in their spare time from recycled material.

And I thought, my God, this is someone that said they weren't creative. And here they are buying fabrics online and making things. and I think it's in our human nature to be creative and I think everyone is so it's nice I mean obviously it's not been a nice situation and there isn't really silver linings but if someone has been able to realise that they like other things or they could start their own business

or they have time to themselves again to kind of reflect on their whole life I think that can be quite positive can we talk about living online because a lot of people are frightened of it a lot of people are excited. But, you know, it's a real, it's quite extraordinary place to live. And there are a lot of, there's a lot of negativity and protecting yourself.

So what advice would you give to anybody of any age? Because I'm not going to say young people who are trying to do this. Because it could be somebody in their 70s who suddenly says, you know what, this is what I've always wanted to do. how can you protect yourself in this delicate place? Because it can go the wrong way sometimes. Yeah, it's really true. And I think we're realising more and more, unfortunately, how little protection we have. You know, I still go on Twitter. I still quite enjoy it. I still like making jokes with other writers who are bored on there, clearly procrastinating. But, you know, the amount of hatred and really awful abuse that goes on.

on there is terrible and not really being dealt with. I mean, you can block people, but surely we should have some way of dealing with it now that we're this many decades into using the internet. It should be illegal. People should be held responsible. You know, people get away with all sorts still. So I think it's worth bearing in mind that this is a huge topic. It's not easy and we've got some real change to make. But I think the first step is setting boundaries for your own use and just realizing what's making you feel bad and maybe experimenting with having different amounts of time on it or unfollowing things that you're not loving anymore and just really putting a fence around what works for you because I think it's different for all of us.

But it's still, it's very interesting because you talk about Twitter and blocking. And a friend of mine who's very well known got a lot of abuse suddenly for something that she did, which was, I mean, I still don't understand. why she got the abuse she did. And she said, you know, she did that thing about blocking and blocking and deleting. She said, but it's affected her deeply. And it's very easy to say, don't let it affect you, but it does. But it's also a fantastic place to live, isn't it? It can be really exciting. It's so exciting. And I always want to touch on the positives of the internet and not just because it's, you can build a career and make a living and, you know, work in your own way, which is very

empowering if you want to work in a different way than traditional setups have allowed us. And I think, yeah, you can make friends. We can raise money for things. There's a lot of activism. It's an incredible place for connection, but I think you have to make that work for you. I don't think we can blame the internet for things. The internet isn't actually a living, breathing thing. We use it. So if the internet is bad, it means humans are bad. If the internet is good on one day, that means humans are being nice on that day. So I think, you know, we need to treat the internet as a real place. It's not online and offline. This is just life. And I think we know that now from COVID, we're all spending a lot of time on the internet because it's the only way we can talk to our friends and family. So if you are walking

down the street and you see someone being abusive, it should be the same reaction as if you see someone being abusive to someone online. And I think that distinction of, oh, it's the internet. That's sort of the problem because actually it's not the internet it's us that's so interesting because people forget that but i also think that a lot of people forget when they say nasty things that they forget it's a human being that is going to be feeling that it's not their computer or their telephone that's going to be feeling that yeah and i think i really feel lucky that i've grown up on the internet it's not that i'm really savvy and really techie it's not that it's more i've seen it grow and evolve over time and I think in my 20s I dealt with I dealt with trolls I you know as a journalist at a

magazine for a long time I dealt with really horrible comments and I can see now I can see a little bit of the psychology behind people do it why people do it and I'm not saying it's okay but I what do oh tell me tell me well I've reached out to people who have messaged me really horrible things and the minute that you message them back or and I'm not saying you should always message back for the times that I have they immediately apologize and they immediately say I'm really sorry I'm having a really terrible time and that thing you did made me feel bad and there's a lot more beneath the surface.

I don't think it's just these faceless trolls. I think their human beings are probably going through something but it's not to say it's okay because it's never okay. So let's go to your teaching now. Where does it come from? Where does it come from in you? Probably going back to what we were talking about at the beginning really, just knowing how powerful it can be

when someone looks you in the eyes and says, I believe you can do this. you know, it doesn't take much to remember that someone thought it was possible. And especially in the realm that I work in, which is creativity, I'm so passionate about people feeling like they can do things. And I've heard so many stories, it's grown adults who are saying, oh, I've, you know, I've not picked up a pen since I was 12 because someone at school told me I was rubbish. And I just really don't like that. And I, and if I can do anything to, you know, do the opposite of that, I, I will. And it's,

a great feeling. And I know that it sounds really cliche, but whenever I do my teaching or any lectures, it's not, I'm not really, I mean, I am teaching things, but I feel like I go away with so much as well. And it goes both ways. I learn so much from the people that I meet on those courses as well. But teaching, you have to have a real, I mean, obviously those people at Southampton that said that, they didn't have the thing I'm about to talk about. But there has to be real empathy and sympathy and kindness. and the way you do it, you don't, you do it that you bring people in and you don't make anybody feel strange or different. And that's important. I like to think so.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm quite early into this and I've got a lot to learn myself. But, yeah, I think you know when you like something. And I think you just need to navigate towards what makes you feel good in your job as well as everything else. And I get a good feeling when I'm doing that stuff. But the other thing I would say is I do a lot of digital classes now where I don't actually meet the students. And I don't really, I know that they leave comments and I read them, but I don't see them face to face.

And I kind of like that we're in this world where we can just tap into things and learn things and take a class for 10 minutes and then go and do something else. And it's a great time for learning new skills. And I think as much as school and university and everything is great, and we should all do that and take it seriously. I am a big fan of self-teaching. I think we can teach ourselves things. What is success then to you? I think it's definitely changed into my 30s. I mean, I'm 31, but I definitely felt a shift.

I think in my 20s it was about looking successful. I think in my 30s it's feeling genuinely happy and good in myself. And so that's not so much about how it looks, but how it feels. And I've definitely seen a change there. What do you mean looking successful? Do you mean the outward how people perceive you about how you look, do you mean? Yeah, I think in my 20s it was definitely how does my LinkedIn page look and where am I working and who knows about all the things I'm doing. That was definitely a thing in my 20s. I remember working at Condé Nast and thinking that was my devil wears Prada moment of success.

And I loved it there. But my life now, I think, is far more successful. But I probably couldn't walk into a room and impress people with one single, line anymore but that's not really the point of success for me now I suppose please tell me it was like that like devil wears Prada was it like go on just say it was even if it wasn't uh yes it was okay now was it really um no nothing's never like the films nothing's ever like that sadly oh you see but we've got to have a little bit of that see we have to have i think i think in some ways you would just imagine fashion magazines to be like that and you imagine american high schools to be like

they are in the movies. And you imagine, you know, when you fall in love that you're going to roll around on the beach on the very first date and he's going to look into your eyes. You know, sometimes we do need the movies to give us that. I totally agree. And I want the magazines to be like that. And they did look like that, but they weren't like that in real life. And I think there is a distinction. And I think we all need to be aware of it. Instagram isn't reality. I love looking at lovely pictures and I love, I love beautiful models and I love looking at gorgeous photos, but that is not real. And I think the sooner we know that the better. I think we all do know that really. We know that the picture of the Maldives and the beautiful couple. We know that

they argued on the plane and that they had a horrible journey getting there. We know that really, but we just don't want to believe it. Okay, so let's go to the podcast now. It's massively successful. Everybody talks about it. Did you have that in mind when you were launching it? Did you think, okay, I know where I want to go with this? Or did you just go with it? Because it's not like any others. It is different. And did you plan that?

Thank you. That is so nice to hear, especially as there's 100 bazillion million podcasts, which I'm so happy about because I'm a real podcast listener. And I love that feeling of discovering a new one. But yeah, it's, you want to be different, even if you're talking about similar subjects. Five years ago, weirdly, there wasn't really anyone, doing a techie work podcast. There were some American ones, but, you know, even five years ago,

the podcast industry looked different. So I'm so happy that I got in there at a good time. I didn't know that I was getting into something bigger than what I thought, because now it is a functioning business and I pay people and it is an actual thing, which I have to remember because I still treat it as a hobby. And people around me are like, Emma, this isn't a hobby. This is your job now. But I love doing it but I really, really didn't know that that's what it was going to become. I was going to do eight episodes. That was the plan to promote my first book, which was Control Alt Delete, which came out when I was 26. And now, you know, five years later, the podcast is, is big. And I don't want to take that for granted either. I think it's a real privilege to have a platform. So I like to

pick wisely what, you know, what I do on it. And it's all down to you. It is. And I do really like that because having worked in magazines and as much as I love magazines if you work there you're not the editor obviously you are just one person who contributes to the whole thing unless you're the editor unless you're the editor but even then you don't really get a say I think you've got probably got someone in a suit above you telling you what to do so it's amazing to have that editorial control and pick the topics I want to talk about it is amazing and also not interview people about the things that back in the day people did interview especially women about, you know, there was also, there was always the, oh, your film's great, let's talk about

it, but also are you pregnant? Yeah. There's always like this weird scoop that people needed to get, and I'm anti-scoop. I don't want a scoop. If anyone comes on my podcast, it's the opposite of that. I agree. Good for you. Do you know the worst thing, do you know what, the worst thing as somebody who's an interviewer for over 30 years, in fact, longer than you've been alive, which is a bit weird, but also somebody who's been interviewed, if anybody ever says to me, how do you do the mummy juggle? I just want to go mad. Go, what do you? What?

What? Well, do you know what, though? I don't say it like that, but I sometimes as a 31 year old who is not sure I want to have children, I do sometimes look at people and think, please tell me something because I'm scared. And I don't know actually quite how we all are meant to do it all the time perfectly. So maybe I'm coming at it from a different angle, but I definitely, definitely, I'm not a fan of those mummy, mummy angle questions, no. No, what are you scared of?

I think I just, I'm not quite sure how people do it. And I know that sounds really cliche, like you just said, probably not a great thing to say, but I just mean life is quite full for me right now. I'm not sure how I would chuck in something completely huge, like having a baby. And I think people make it look very easy, and I don't think it is. Oh, it's not easy. It's not easy. And anybody that tells you it's easy. I'm going to just take it from somebody who I wouldn't do anything, but my girls come first. My girls absolutely come first. But it's very, it is tough. It is tough. And that's another thing going back to Instagram. When people have their babies and they stand there and everything's beautiful and everything's fine and everything's neat and tidy and they've done all the washing and they've had the hair washed.

you don't wash your hair for a while just remember that you won't wash your hair it's tough but it's it is a great gift but you'll know if you want children the time is right and don't let anybody push you into it that is the weirdest thing is people always go oh

you haven't had a baby yet when are you going to have a baby are you going to have a baby are you never going to have a baby and then when you have a baby it's when are you going to have another baby yeah definitely because those questions are definitely coming for me for me definitely but it's nice having close friends who are having kids now because I get to ask them all of the, all of that stuff, you know, the gritty truth of it all that is the opposite of Instagram

and it's nice to hear how it really is. It's important and actually that's what friends are for. I really do think that. So you love what you do, don't you? But it's also, I know you've talked about obsession and workaholic and passion. So where do you stand on all of those? It's interesting because I think I would say I probably was a workaholic in my 20s, definitely looking back, I think, wow, you really weren't there for people, perhaps as much as now I would be. I think you get a little bit of a, I don't know, people kind of say in your 20s, like you're allowed to be a bit messy and chaotic and get things wrong. Maybe that's the decade to mess things up and that's fine. But looking back, I don't think I was maybe the best friend I could have been. I don't think I, I just didn't have a lot of time for people because I was obsessed with my work. I really was. And I've got to say, I'm kind of reaping the rewards of it now in quite a nice way because I'm slowing down, but I've built my business and I've built a foundation and that's great. But yeah, I definitely think I had a bit of addiction to work, I would say, in my 20s, which now I'm reflecting on and realizing that burnout is real. And now I don't want to be like that anymore.

Okay, so for somebody who is feeling like that, then, how do you stop? because if you are a workaholic or if you're obsessed, how do you stop if it's making you feel good? Well, I think the first step, like anything, like any addiction or ism, is to admit to yourself because you don't really want to admit yourself. And it's very sneaky with work because you can say, oh, but it's really fun or, oh, but it makes me money or it makes me feel good. It's a good thing. I think you kind of have to be realistic with yourself. And even if your job and addiction, is writing books and doing lovely things, it's still taking over a large percentage of your life.

And nothing should be, you know, that 80, 90% taking over. We do need an element of balance, I think, to feel good about ourselves and feel like we're being in integrity and being ourselves. And family and friends, you know, that is the core, I think, of the human experience, is connecting with people and being loved by people and loving others,

being in a community. And I think it comes down to individualism, which is when you think as an individual, your life and your choices come first. And I think we have to unpick that a little bit. You're fascinating. I mean, that's why I mean, I think your lectures, your teachings are great.

How far are you going to take that? Please say you're going to take it further. I don't really know what the next step would be for it. I guess I'm just going to keep doing it. But I don't know if there's like a last. to climb in terms of teaching. It's more just meeting lots of different people. Professor Emma Gannon at a university. That's maybe you could be a professor. I would actually love that. And you know it's really sad. Why? It's because at university, I did have a nice time, but I am slightly

dyslexic and I like to say it because I think people who want to be writers who are told they're dyslexic can often feel bad about themselves. So I do like the idea of going back there as a professor and just being a bit of a revenge. Oh, yes, can you, visiting professor, Emma, and you'll see those teachers that weren't very supportive and you'll just say, hello, I'm the visiting professor now. And they'd be all bowing and scraping, although I don't imagine you'd want somebody to bow and scrape to you. No, no, definitely not. I'd feel very weird about that.

So we always ask on this podcast, what makes you laugh, what makes you properly belly laugh? And, you know, you're a hard worker and all of those things, but now you're the ripe, old age of 31. I hope you can still hold on to those things that make you properly belly love. What are they? I love watching comedians on YouTube. I mean, this is probably a really sort of basic answer, but just memes on Instagram as well, funny clips, like the basic tripe that you find on Instagram when you're just scrolling through. I think anything like that just takes you immediately out of your day and you just start laughing. I would also say my nieces and nephews because I just think kids are hilarious. They don't even know they're being

hilarious. But I really like this question because I think most people have forgotten to have fun by a certain age and I think it's really important to have fun. It really, really is. And it's very interesting, the amount of people that will either say, as you said, would be comedians. I want to know which comedians. So who do you think you're finding comedians? Who are the ones that you really like? Oh, I like so many. I like Eddie Isard. I love. like Mickey Flanagan. Oh, who else do I? I mean, I go to Edinburgh Fringe every year and finding you.

Yeah, I love it so much. I was so sad it wasn't on last year. I know nothing was on, but Fringe not happening felt like a dagger through the heart because that is just the best time for everyone ever. And finding those new comedians when they're just in a little basement. I remember seeing Michelle Wolf one year when she was, well, just new. And then she's got a Netflix show now.

It's really cool when you see people grow like that. And do you like it? So is it the sort of humour? Because obviously Eddie's humour, I mean, she's incredible. I've seen her live and has me properly, practically peeing the seat. And I'm, you know, I'm being completely honest there. But it's observational humour. Is that what you like then as well?

That's what I love, yeah. Things that are, I mean, it's such a skill, isn't it? Those storytellers that, yeah, come back to themes that take you, it's not just comedy, it's almost telling the truth about the world in a very, very clever way. They say it like, we are all thinking, but we haven't said out loud. Very important. Yeah. Very important.

It's very funny. So I'd love you to do, because my dad, who's in his 80s, listens to this. And my girls who are teenagers always go on about memes. and he still cannot get his head around it. And actually it makes them laugh. He goes, but what is a meme? But why is it called a meme? And then when you're just saying it, you just, honestly, every single time, that makes me laugh.

It's the stupidest thing. But my dad saying, what is a meme? Somebody needs to do a meme of somebody saying that. I feel like a lot of people's parents have been getting into memes during the COVID year as well. I don't know if you've had that with anyone older in your life. who suddenly just sends you a meme. And I'm thinking, oh my God, why are you sending this to me? That's what I meant why I'm laughing, because he sends it.

And then the girls will say to him, that's a meme. But what isn't that? That's what you've done. So I hope you're going to carry on doing more of everything you're doing. I mean, do you have hope, dreams and ambitions now? Do you know where you want it to go? Well, I wrote a book called the multi-hyphen method a few years ago. It was about being a multi-hyphen.

Wonderful book. And it feels like at the time I was proud of it, but I felt like I couldn't stand completely behind it. I don't know why. I just didn't feel like solidly confident about it for some reason. Maybe it's because I was in my 20s when I wrote it. But now I think, God, being a multi-hyphenate is amazing. And it's really helped during hard times. I mean, having multiple income streams, having multiple interests, I feel secure, I feel happy.

I think it's a great way to work. and I'm glad I wrote that book, but it just means that whenever anyone tries to say, you know, what do you like the most or what's your favourite thing? I get to say, well, I don't have one favourite.

I like doing lots and lots of things, and that's what I love. But my debut novel, Olive, came out last year, the paperbacks out this year, and I want to write more novels. That's something I've really, really loved. But haven't you started the next one? Or didn't I read that you started the next one?

Yeah, I've started the next one. Yeah, it's a really long journey novels. It's a, long slog. I love doing the podcast because sometimes I can interview someone and I can put it up the next day and I think, oh, I've made something that I'm proud of and I get to post it within a day. But a novel is years, it's years of work. So it's good for people who are used to instant validation. I think we need to spend years on something sometimes. So I'm enjoying it in a different way. Can you tell us anything about it? Or do you have you got, what stage you are with it?

I'm at first draft stage, but it should be coming out next year. So I've got a lot to do this year. But my creativity was zapped last year. I know I've heard this from a lot of other people, a lot of other writers, that just staring at the same four walls was awful. I had no mojo. I had no ideas. I get ideas from being with my friends.

I get ideas from laughing with my family or being on a bus or being in a different country. It was bad. So I'm getting it back. And thank God. Thank God it is. You're a walker as well, aren't you? Yeah, I love walking. I used to find it so weird that adults liked walking when I was younger.

I remember people saying I go walking as a hobby and I think, what is that? That looks so boring. Now I get it. I completely get it. I'm in. I'd go on like a five-hour walk now. It is amazing for getting ideas, but it's just good for the soul, isn't it? Just getting out.

Good for the soul and good for the planet. Emma, what a joy to speak to you. Thank you so much. and thank you. And I think you've got so much to give. I'm so excited for you. That's a strange thing to say. But I'm so excited for you for what's next.

And do more teaching. Because if anybody hasn't seen her talks and her teachings, just go and Google them, find it. Ecosier them, even. Just go and find Emma because just fascinating. Really fascinating. Thank you so much. Emma, thank you very much indeed.

And have a lovely rest of your day. Thank you. You too. That Gabby Rawson podcast is proudly produced by Cameo Productions. Music by Beth McCari. Could you please tap the follow or subscribe button? And thank you so much for your reviews. I promise that the team and I have read them all and we really are rather overwhelmed and they really mean the world to us.

So thank you so much. If you kindly leave a review or a comment, that would be lovely. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.