That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Jason Isaacs

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

In this episode Gaby chats with actor Jason Isaacs. They talk about so many of his amazing roles including Captain Hook in 'Peter Pan' and of course Lucius Malfoy 'Harry Potter'. He shares the story of the audition and a secret conversation with JK Rowling about the final instalments of the franchise. He chats about the late-night phone call he received about being in Brit Marling’s 'The OA' on Netflix and how fast he got that part. They talk in depth about his powerful, new film called 'Mass' which is a Sky Original and will be available in cinemas and on Sky Cinema from 20th January. He tells Gaby what his wife really thinks of his singing, what TV shows he sneakily watches under the duvet and being a keen magician. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to that Gabby Rosin podcast, part of the Acast Creator Network. Jason Isaac's CV is very long and very impressive, and we managed to talk about so many of his amazing roles, including Captain Hook in Peter Pan, one of our family favourites, and of course Harry Potter. He shares the story of the audition that led to him being cast as Lucius Malfoy and his secret conversation with J.K. Rowling about the final installments of the film franchise. He also chats about the late-night phone call he received about being in Britt Marlings the OA on Netflix and how fast he got the part. We talk in-depth about his new Sky original movie called Mask,

which will be available in cinemas and on Sky Cinema from the 20th of January. This film reduced me to tears. It stayed with me for a very long time. It's a movie I will never forget and is one of the most moving and powerful things I have ever watched. He tells me about what his wife really thinks of his singing, what singing shows he sneakily watches under the duvet, and how farting makes him laugh. He is such a lovely man, and I do hope you enjoy this.

Please can I ask you a favour? Would you mind following and subscribing, please, by clicking the follow or subscribe button? This is completely and utterly free, by the way, and you can also rate and review on Apple Podcast, which is the Purple Appel app, on your iPhone or iPad. Simply, scroll down to the bottom of all of the episodes.

I know there have been quite a few now. And you'll see the stars where you can tap and rate and also please write a review. Thank you so much. Okay, so Jason, when you were seven and you cut open the arm of the chair. Corderoi sofa. Yeah, what was inside it?

Foam was inside it. And it was the first adult moment of my life. First adult moment? Yeah, my parents had gone out. We had a new sofa and I got a bread knife and I wanted to know what's inside it and I sawed it open and I saw, oh look, it's foam. And then I thought, do you know what? I'm going to get in trouble for this. And that is so unfair because I just wanted to know what was in there.

And then I sat there with a bread knife and foam around me thinking, I'm going to remember this. This is the first moment I'm going to remember for the rest of my life, this actual feeling and I do. So, you know, so extraordinary. So doing all the research on you, that comes up every so often this thing about the other. I tell the same crap old stories when I get asked. I mean, the thing is you get old and you've been asked lots of questions. You trot out the same things, but I do remember it. It's my first actual memory.

The other things are from photographs. Really? Well, you know, I don't know about it. I'm told. I'm a bit like that. I'm told that when we tell stories, the way it works scientifically is that you kind of reassemble the neurons from your filing cabinet in your brain. And then next time what you're doing is not telling a story

based on the original memory at all. It's based on the last time you told the story. So I don't know, but I think that's my first memory. Okay, so you don't remember. Do you remember being a child, though, in Liverpool and what it was like? I don't know that. Yeah, I remember being in Liverpool. We left when I was 11, so yeah, I remember lots of things about being in Liverpool,

whether they really happened or not the way I remember that. I don't know. That's really interesting. I look at photographs, and I can see the movement around the photograph, but I don't necessarily remember the exact time. Do that make sense? Is that your phone? Yes, okay, take it.

Who is it? Who is it? Is anyone interesting? It's Ian softly. I'm hoping to make a film with him next year. So, well, no, you have to answer. No, I can't answer it. Answer and say yes.

Say you're up for the film. You're on the Gabby Roslin podcasting. Oh, no. I love that. You could just say yes. Sorry about that. Ian, if you're listening to this podcast, I would never not normally take your call.

Go on ring him back. We've had people do that. Alan Cummings, who are... We also know in common. Yes. Should we say, Gabby, that this is an odd thing, because we don't really know each other, but we know millions of people in common. We've met out.

So there's an oddness. here. Right. Alan Cummings told me, we will go back to your childhood in Liverpool, but Alan Cummings... For the listener, Gabby's waving a blue bio at me. I'm horrified what story she's about to tell. Yeah, well, Alan who's been on the podcast, told me

that you're a magician and that you're the person that taught him the pen trick for James Bond. Oh, that was... Yeah, yeah. That was twiddly. It wasn't, I think I taught him... I was in a series called Capital City when I first came out of drama school, and I went down

the city and I watched what they were all doing and they were doing a lot of drugs and champagne. And also when they sat there, their legs were bouncing all the time. Again, this is great for audio. Leg was bouncing like this. You can all see it, can you? And there were twiddling pens. So I taught him the twiddling pen thing. But also, I did the bouncing leg thing all the time because, you know, it was for people who were.

So, but they did it because they're all lots of them on cocaine. It's a very high adrenaline thing. And I did it for weeks and weeks and three or four episodes. And then one day the cameraman said to me, Jason might not want to do the bouncing leg thing in your close-ups. And I said, no, no, they all do it. He said, yeah, but it looks like you're wanking. And I said, why didn't you tell me when we started? He said, well, it's, you know, it's not my job.

So I stopped doing that. I love that show. Was that story? Well, I do do magic. Sorry, yeah, that was the question. Yeah, I do magic. But I was going to tell you about a phone ringing. I was on stage at the, it's a wide-raging conversation.

I was on stage in this play at the Royal Court years ago about the Northern Ireland, about the IRA and the EDF and stuff. And it was a very serious, very intense play, and it was without an interval, and it built up to this long silence at the end. And finally, this kind of climactic moment happened. And it was at the time they were negotiating the Storm on Peace Agreement. So we had all those people come and people who were not identifying themselves from the different groups coming as well, as well as politicians. And we had people blocking the fire exits and stuff. It was a real, it was just one of those moments in theatre.

And one night we'd earned this long silence during which someone's about to crack and a phone started ringing. in the crowd and the person didn't switch it off. Maybe it was in the bag of pocket. And they had it on ascending rings, so it just got louder and louder, and it had ruined the entire play until finally I realized it was in my pocket. It was yours!

It was me, and I was in the scene. And they didn't have phones in 1970 when the play was set. And I pulled it out my pocket, and I answered it, and I went, I answered it, and I went, and put it back in my pocket as if somehow to cover, as if that was relevant.

Then for years after, I go to World Court, Court and I go, oh, two tickets, please, and they go, you're the guy with the phone, right? Oh, my God. Terrible, terrible moment for me. But there are wonderful stories about, who is it? I've sworn twice now in your podcast. No, it's fine.

It's fine. It's podcast. I mean, that's why I thought, when I was first off at Potter, and my agent said to me, he said to me, if you read the Potter, and I said, well, no, because I'm an adult. And he said, they're really pretty good. And then I went, yeah, well, I'm sure they're wonderful.

And then they sent me them, and I read, There were four books published at the time. I opened the front copy and a week went by in which I didn't change my underwear or brush my teeth or look up when I was driving. I'm embarrassed to say. I just devoured them and I suddenly got why the books were so popular.

And did you just say, yes, I'll do it. No, I didn't want to do it. I did have to audition and I didn't want to do it. You did have to audition. I auditioned for Gildroy Lockhart, which is the part that Ken Brown. Actually, Alan Cumming was obviously for the same time as well. And I went in to meet Chris Columbus

And I'd already said that I was going to play Captain Hook. I'd been off of that part and I was going to go to Australia for a year. Which you are in my family. My youngest loves you as Captain. It's such a brilliant film. And I say that with no, it's no kind of boast because it took 27P at the box office. But I still think it's brilliant. But anyway, I said I was going to Captain Hook.

So I went into Auditors of Gilder Lockhart and I gave my marvellous guilder. And it was so good that Chris Lumpur said, hey, would you consider a different part? Would you mind reading Elizabeth's Malfoy? And my head went immediately, oh, I'm playing two parts in the same film. It's extraordinary. In my head, I thought. Then I suddenly realized what he meant.

You're not playing Gilderilver-a-Lockhart. And I went, oh, well, I mean, he goes, you want to go outside? Think about it for a minute. I went outside and I called my agent. I was like, I'm not fucking auditioning for Lucy's mouth. I'm playing a bad guy on a children's film already. And I've done the Patriot a couple years ago. And he goes, you don't have to take the job.

Just go in an audition for it. And I said, no, I might do myself out playing Gilder-R-R-Lockhart. not realizing in my vanity that clearly I wasn't going to get the job anyway. And he said, but just go in. I said, I don't want to go in. And the assistant came out. So you ready? And I went in and I read with such bitterness through such gritter teeth

because I didn't want to be there. I think that's why they offered me the job. And I said to my agent, I don't want to do it. And he said, well, just take the weekend to think about it. I said, I don't want to play Captain Hook and Lucy's mouthwound. I just feel like playing two bad guys in a row like that. It's a bad idea. And he was Alan's agent as well.

And he said, you know, Alan did dieharden and Robin Hood didn't do him any harm. And I went, well, yeah, but I don't know. He said, I'll call you on Monday. And over the weekend, everybody called me. Like all my godchildren, my nephew, I think our mutual friends child called like every child only in the world and the parents called me to say, you've got to take the part of Harry Potter. Not because they're giving monkeys about my career, because they wanted to come visit the series, obviously.

And thank God that I did. They were all right. fantastic part in the most extraordinary phenomenon, really, that still gives so much pleasure to so many people. But didn't you fight to make sure you were in the last ones as well? No, I just didn't know, because every time, I didn't sign like a seven pictures,

I'd just signed to do that film. And every time they come out and say... Are you only signed to do one? Yeah, yeah. And every time they come out and they go, well, you're not in the next one. It was great that I wasn't in three, because I could go and do Peter Pan. But then, I only had a little bit, and they'd come and they'd say, we need it for February and two days in May and all of October, and you go, well, but

you couldn't take... You know, it didn't, they didn't pay for the whole time, just pay for the time you're working. It meant I missed out on lots of jobs. So there were numbers of times I thought, I'm not going to do it. So when they offered me number five, it was really just a few days here and there, but it blocked out a whole bunch of time.

And I thought I wasn't going to do it because I wasn't in the sixth book. And she was writing the seventh book. And I thought, well, I mean, if I'm done, what's the point? And then I went to an awards ceremony, and she was there. And they said, oh, Joe's here. And I said, I've never met her.

And they never met her. Oh, would you want to be introduced? And I said, yeah, thanks. So I was walking over. I was walking over to her table thinking, don't ask her what's in seven. She's never going to tell you. She's like, it's the biggest secret in the publishing world.

And there's no. But I mean, could I like, no, no, just be gracious. Say thank you very much. It's been a great pleasure in honour. And I got there and they said, Joe, Jason, Jason, Joe. And she went, hello, darling, how are you? And I went, I'm not good. Get me out of prison.

Get me out of Huskap. And she looked over her shoulders. It looked all around and she went, you're out, chapter one. And I went, all right, thanks very much. And that's when I signed up for number five. Oh my God. So she did tell you? She told me.

She didn't tell me I was out in Chapter 1, didn't appear for another 400 of inches. But that's why I signed up for number five. What does it feel like to be in one of the biggest franchises ever? It doesn't feel like anything because I did my job. And then I went on to 100 other jobs since. So there are other people sitting in Warner Brothers, I'm sure, dreaming up theme parts.

But for me, I just then went home and took the rubbish out or didn't and drove my kids to school and then went on to do the next job. that because you're a regular person and I know all of that but it's still the phenomenon you know people think of Harry Potter and it's it's bigger than anyone ever imagined that anyone could ever think of it still can only eat one meal and and I still forget to take the rub bins out on Thursday night and then I've done dozens of other jobs since oh I thought the business got well it's Wednesday nights well it depends where in the street you are but um but yeah so I don't feel like I mean the only thing that's weird about Harry Potter

not weird, sorry, different, is that most jobs I do for the job, I mean, are old enough, sage enough, experienced stuff, or whatever it is, to try and enjoy my life, my day, because who the hell knows what's happening tomorrow? And you certainly don't know with films or television series if anyone's going to watch them, or if they're going to be popular or not. And I'm glad that I've had that attitude for a while because Peter Pan, for instance, you know, was a terrible flop.

But why? Well, it's different discussion. I mean, I have that discussion with it, but the thing is, I learned to enjoy it. It's when I enjoyed this incredible year in Australia and when it was a flop it was disappointing but it didn't I wasn't wasn't doing it invested in what was going to happen afterwards so I was just enjoying the experience so great way to be but with Harry Potter something else happened like

there wasn't that much filming and creatively there wasn't that much to do there was a you know there's a long long gaps waiting around and then working for five minutes and then stopping and there were you know I didn't have much to do acting wise but for decades now people get enormous pleasure from it and I can give enormous pleasure from just standing in the room like a lump. You know, people are thrilled to meet me because really it helps them connect with this huge part of their childhood. And for a lot of people, the pot of stories and pot of characters are a real life raft in choppy

seas for them, you know, or lights in the darkness or whatever method of you come up with. People have been suicidal and people have been very lonely and bullied and stuff. So it's the gift that keeps on giving. I get to still be part of bringing pleasure to people, whereas most things I do the job. I do the job and then whatever happens after is nothing to do with me. How amazing to know you can stand in a room and just do that? Just by signing an autograph and you give it to someone and they go, you don't understand.

They've had it laminated there. You know, they sleep on it in a pillow or they, you know, has pride of place. And it really does bring joy to people to be connected with the Potter world. And I don't have to do very much. I'm pretty lazy. When you did your law degree and then decided that's it, you want to be an actor, did you ever think that you'd be able to say was it about the pleasure that you could bring others

or was it because you wanted to be satisfied by that pleasure? Yeah, it was because it was the only thing I'd ever done that felt like I didn't have to pretend to be someone else. That's a weird thing, isn't it? I've never said it before. So my whole life I always felt like I needed to be what other people need to be in a social group. So I was from Liverpool and moved to London

and my accent was weird and wrong. And then I had friends inside school and outside of school. kind of different worlds. And then I was a skateboarder at the South Bank and I was one of the only white kids and they were, you know, and I had to, and then I went to university and they were all very, very posh from worlds I didn't even know existed and had to try and in my head, I had to try and pretend that I belong with those people. And then I found a rehearsal room and you could be anyone. It didn't matter where you came from. It was what you were in that room. Maybe in the creative world generally, you know, it didn't really matter. I wasn't,

I didn't judge myself or was embarrassed about who I was, how I sounded, what I dressed like. Were you embarrassed before that then? Yeah, lots of times. I was just very self-conscious about, I didn't quite fit anywhere. And as Jewish, and so that was, you know, many places I felt I didn't fit also. So in a rehearsal room, it didn't matter. We were a community of the arts. We were exploring the human condition.

And so to bring anything to it that marked you out as belonging to a tribe was wrong. because we needed to be neutral. And I loved that. I still love that. I still love everything about that. So it was bringing you pleasure and then in turn... Sorry, yeah, I forgot what the question was.

No, but it was bringing you pressure. It was entirely for me. It was entirely for the exploration. It wasn't for the performance. And it's still true, I think, the most enjoyable part of my job now is I get to shadow people. And people tell you much more

than they would ever tell a journalist. I've shadowed politicians and priests and, you know, plastic surgeons and all kinds of people that you get under the skin of, and you get to walk in their shoes for a while. You get to experience, precariously, you can experience people as much as your imagination can take you there in amazing situations,

in war, in trauma, like in mass, or you get to live a thousand lives and then go back to your own safe one. And that's what I love about. So it wasn't really for anybody else. It's weird when people thank me. You know, thank you for your performance in something, and I go, it's so,

self-indulgent. And then once in the blue moon, there's really cheesy segue to the film I'm meant to be publicizing, but once in the blue moon, it really is maybe twice in my career or something. I'm part of something that is not, look at me, it's look at this. You know, it's, this has something to offer you. Your life might be better if, you know, you'll be entertained, you'll be gripped, you know, but by the end of it, you might have a bit of a roadmap to deal with things in your life better and that will, you know, give you some strength. And really rare. Well, Matt, okay, we've got to talk about...

Sorry, I didn't mean to kill it like that. You'd pivot whenever you want. No, no, no. I want to talk about Mass. I have a problem talking to you about it because I'm... I thought when I saw you that I'd end up in floods of tears. If I think about it now, this is no word of a lie.

I don't... There were three things recently that have affected me deeply that I've watched. One was Mayor of East Town. One was promising young woman and one was Mass. and I watched this is absolutely true so I got the secret link to mass I watched half of it

and at home and I had to leave the sitting room and I walked around the house and my husband said, you're all right, you know, how was it? I actually need to talk to you about it but I can't talk to you about it

I just need to cope with what I've just watched no, what I've just witnessed and he said, witnessed, I can't talk to you and I went out outside for a walk and I was gone for about 45 minutes. Then I came home and I thought I need to watch it from the beginning again. So I watched it all

the way through and I was left in an absolute mess. I cannot stop thinking about it. It has stayed with me. It's one of the most extraordinary pieces of film I have ever, I'm going to use the word witness again that I've ever witnessed because that... I'm so glad to think that I'm going to cry enough of you. I mean, I do think it's special. I really do think it's special. But I hope that it left you feeling hopeful. I mean, it's a story of hope in the end. The story of the possibility of growth and forgiveness. I really am.

I'm really affected by this film. So there's a moment at the end. Spoiler, alert. No, no, I'm not going to give anything away. But there was this moment in the end where suddenly my emotions are turned completely around. And all the way through, I didn't realize I would feel what I felt.

I'm not going to give anything away because I decided not to read anything. The reviews are giving too much away. They really are. Because our story, our plot is the emotional journey of the characters. If you talk about those in the off-door, you're giving away our plot.

But why have that? It's really annoyed me. The reviews are incredible. But I didn't read any before because it said, you know, it said when you're coming to chat to Jason, you know, please, no spoilt, don't give anything away. So I thought, okay, I'm going to go for the ride.

And because it takes you on this extraordinary trip and your emotions, it makes you rethink how you always think you felt. It makes you reevalue your own emotions. I'm going to get again, so the third time I said it, what I witness, I feel like I'm part of something that's so deeply intimate and personal. and yet they're letting me watch this. So it feels that they're letting me in. Yeah, yeah. Feels like you're at the table. Oh, no.

How did you film that? How long did it take to film? Well, most of the film, it's not giving too much ways. Most of the film is a conversation, a single conversation, which is a kind of remarkable thing because, you know, it's just physically small film. And it feels in some ways like the biggest film I've ever made. The biggest emotional landscape, if that's not too pretentious of face, I don't know. But that was eight days, that conversation.

And then the film overall was another four or five days. We shot, unfortunately, the first day was we shot the beginning and end because that's the exterior and that's when we have the other actors played the other parts. But most of it was just over a week. And it was a very, you know, it was as intense and experience making it as you can imagine as it is watching it. But I'm so glad you felt. I'll be honest, when I read it, I had no notion if it would make a watchable film.

I knew that it would be something to experience as an actor, but I didn't know if it would just be a big wealth of self-indulgence. I also didn't know if I was good enough. I don't. Oh, my God. You are. Okay. Don't.

No, no, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no, you can't. No, I can. It's about what the characters go through. No, that's what we do. Don't talk to us about what we do. No, I'm not going to say about your performance.

That's not what I'm going to say. Good. Okay. What I'm going to say is that I absolutely believe that the four of you are those people. Yeah. Because it comes from. somewhere so deep. So that's why I keep saying it. I'm witnessing it.

I'm not talking about your performances, but I'm talking about these people and what they have gone through and what they're going through and the conversation they have. And the silence, what you don't say is more powerful than what you do say.

And that there's no music and it's just this conversation. And the silence, the silent moments are the most beautiful things I've ever seen on camera. Yeah, thank you. It is, it's nothing like anything I've done before or probably will ever do again.

And I was scared when I read it of two things. One is, am I up to this level of truth? You know, I've got a bag of tricks that I can wheel out. I've been acting for a long time. I can pretty much approximate. I can imagine what people have imagined when they wrote it and I can give them something like that. Maybe I can do something more sometimes.

This seemed to require something much more than that from me and all of us. And then I thought, if I managed to get somewhere close to it, if I managed to experience, because acting is weird. I mean, it is pretend, but you're trying not to pretend. You're trying to be the thing as much as you can. Trick your imagination into really experiencing it, you know. So if I did all that, and we all managed to do that together, would anybody want to watch it? Is there any way that that's a cinematic experience? We did do something extraordinary together.

We felt like we'd gone through something, but there's nothing more nauseating than actually. Oh my God, we climbed Everest. You know, talking about what they went through, and you're watching you go, I don't care. But I've now seen it with audiences, because it's something else. I've watched it by myself, and I saw it with audiences recently in Washington.

And when you can feel nobody dares breathe, and you can feel the kind of relief at the end of the kind of hope and the emotion flooding through people en masse, you know, in a group, it sort of reminds you of the power of cinema. You remind you, we've all been watching this stuff at home, and some people lucky enough to have big screens to have big screens and nice sound and stuff. They go, why should I go out?

And you go, because stories connect you. You feel connected with other. I mean, this is a film about connection. Even when it's not, you're connected with other people when you're told the story together. And it's a miracle that nothing went wrong. You know, anything could go wrong in films. One of the actors not being up to it, into it, committed.

The music being wrong, the editing being off, something, a cameraman being clever. There are so many things that can, knock this thing off its perch and it just works. It just is a powerful story, powerfully told. And we all left our egos at the door and left our bags of tricks at the door, I think. I marvel at the other three's acting.

I don't like watching myself, but I think the other three are so utterly brilliant in this. But also, no, the other people, the... The two that... Oh, no, the people set it up. No, no, they're phenomenal, yeah. Brena and Kagan are great, and all of them great. But, okay, this is also...

And they're perfect. You need them. You need the ordinary people who are not going through the stuff to kind of frame and contextualize us when we arrive. Was it all scripted? Because it felt like I was watching an unscripted conversation. I mean, we had a big contribution to make. So Fran and Martha really wanted a full rehearsal

because he's done a lot of theatre. And Fran said, okay, fine, he was up for it. Fran being the writer-director. And I said, well, I can't. I've got to go to Australia and make a film. I was hoping just to arrive in Idaho. And they went, no, we've got to have a rehearsal. And I said, well, I can't come.

You have to cast someone else. And we compromised in two days in New York. I had to fly to New York to meet them for two days and then fly to Australia. And in those two days... You're kidding me. No, no. And in those two days, when we were meant to be, I don't know, rehearsing going through the script, what we really did was established an intimacy.

I mean, because I think it's this vulnerable thing. In order to do that, you have to be prepared to make a complete fall of yourself. And so Anne started the ball rolling by just telling stories immediately about what was going on in her life. some very vulnerable things about some challenging things that are happening to her. And we all went, oh, well, that's the currency of this interaction. We need to do that too. And we were, I think, sharing things that you wouldn't share with somebody you'd known for decades, or maybe even the family members, so that we felt, okay, now we really know each other.

You know, we cut straight to something that is very unusual. And we had a little bit of time, only a tiny bit of time to go to the script. And Fran did this thing that the best director I've ever worked with do, Even though he'd written it, he went, listen, you know these characters better than me. You own them. You've got to tell me what doesn't work for you. What things you think they'd be dying to say? What things they wouldn't say?

What things that, when they want to shut the other people up and stuff? And so we all did. We all chipped in. I said, I don't think I'm going to listen to any of this bullshit from these two people. I don't care about their journey. Actually, I think I'm above it all. I've done that male thing of thinking, taking pain and trauma and turning it into something I can fix. Maybe I can change the law, or maybe I can change how psychiatrists train people.

how schools exclude people. Maybe I can fix my wife. She's really fucked up. She needs to come here. She needs therapy, not me. So these are the bits that I would do to try and manage the situation. And then Martha said, yeah, but when you did this, I would say, shut the fuck up. It's, you know, and I would push his and we all said what we thought we would do.

The script was pretty great, but we all made a contribution and Fran never pushed back. He went, okay, let's change that. Not because he didn't like the thing he wrote originally, but because he was smart enough to know that only when we owned what we were doing, would we believe it? And only if we believed it, would you believe it? You're watching it. So it wasn't so much improvising on screen. It was, we instantly hit the ground and had very bold opinions because we had no time.

And he incorporated those in the script. Well, it is one of the things I want everybody to see. And my husband didn't watch it because I wanted to watch it completely on my own to immerse myself in it. And I have spent the couple of days since. It's all I talk to him about is what I can't talk to him about. He keeps saying, I don't want to discuss it with you, but I have to talk about it. And he keeps saying to me, it was the first thing this morning.

So I woke up at half-past five this morning thinking about it again. So that's the second morning after. It's extraordinary. I think the reason it resonates, because it's great to go watch something that's great. That's good enough by itself. But I think the reason it stays maybe with you or with everyone who watches it is because it's about something we all face every day, which is, what's the baggage I carry? What am I carrying in my heart about people I don't know?

People I've vilified or demonized or what kind of blame or guilt or shame or anger, hatred, am I carrying? When I wake up and get out of bed because it's only affecting me. It's not changing my life. It's just weighing me down. And how can I get rid of it? How can I be grateful for what I've got and live my life to the full no matter what happened to me in the past? There's this, you know Esther Perel, the relationship? Councillor.

Esther says that she grew up in a town in Belgium, which had a lot of Holocaust survivors. And there were two types of people, very binary. There were people who didn't die and the people who wanted to live. And I'm going to watch myself now. I start crying. But Jay and Gail want to live. No matter what's happened, they want to live, and they want to live a life free from hate. And hate is crippling them.

And that I think is very universal. And that's why the film is resonating with people. It's very interesting you talk about being grateful and everything. I think a lot of people are far more aware of that over the past 18 months. I think that there's been a lot of everything that the world has gone through, but there's a lot of people who have thought, I'm going to live for each day. And I get that with all the interviews that I've watched about you and the stuff that I've read, it's, it's going to sound so corny and cheesy, but you're really,

you are thankful for life and what you've got. Well, I say that out loud to try and make it. These people come into the room in mass to say certain things because the therapist told them you will feel better But you know you saying things and feeling them are different. It's a challenge You know that the their challenge is to see these other people as human And but all of us face that challenge every day how do I be grateful? You can't think yourself into a different mood But there are actions you can take if you're lucky or even you know making lists of things are grateful for or you can be of service to people You can you know acts of kindness make you feel you know

Completely I mean so but so I know so I not. I'm not what I put out there. I try and be what I put it out there so that I can make everybody try and be. I think everybody tries to be that. I mean, you know, you've talked very openly about your demons. I'm not going to talk about all of that stuff. And you talked about, you know, how tough you found it and the anti-Semitism and everything. And it, you know, it's very, very difficult, all of that. But I get from all of that that you do attempts to be, all right, as you say, you attempt to be. But don't we all do that? No, I think it's, I can do it.

I can read the news and I'm full of rage and I can rage the people around me about the terrible things going on in the world. I'm not doing anything to make them better. It's when I do things to make them better, I feel better. Not when I, you know, show, to slay my kind of righteous credentials. It doesn't do anything. Well, you would have loved the taxi drive on the way over. I had an Uber drive the other night who had escaped from Afghanistan in a terrible situation

when it was 14, I think it was 13. His family go, you've got to go, you've got to get out. And he had made his way across Iran, I think, and Turkey and Greece and France and Italy, and he was a kid, and a lot of people died around him. A lot of people starved, a lot of people were beaten, a lot of people drowned, and he'd made in it, and he's doing a degree here, and he's wanting to give back to the country that had accepted him. He came here because he spoke a bit of English.

That's why he fought his way across the whole continent when he was a child, when there was all kinds of sexual abuse around him, and obviously physical abuse and stuff. starvation and stuff. He's an amazing man who had such a positive outlook and and optimism and ambition for what he could do. He's not here to be a drain on resources and I meet so many people who talk to me about refugees. They think they know refugees and asylum seekers. They think they know what they've been through and what they're here for. And it's that it's encounters like that I'm lucky enough to come across that actually you know don't want to profit you know emotionally

off other people's tragedy but you need to be out in the world engaging with with it to stop feeling sorry for yourself. I need to be out for the world and to wake up and feel grateful. What makes you laugh? I always ask everybody in the podcast, what makes you properly belly laugh? Oh, um, farting.

Love that you said that. That's all there is. Can I ask you about the O-A? That's another thing. I was obsessed with that. Is it true that you got the part at midnight or something? Yeah, yeah, two o'clock in the morning. He said yes, and I was on a plane at by about seven, yeah.

For real? Does that happen? Yeah, they replace someone. No, it never happened before. to meet my life before. No, of course not. Because you always read about that. So that really is a true story?

Yeah, they cast someone, they shot with them for a week, they decided it wasn't working. They're incredibly bold, creative, risk takers. So they cast someone for whom English was not the first language. But he spoke perfect English, according to his agent, and it turned out he didn't. So that was not working out.

And their next day was the biggest day of the whole series, which is Grand Central Station, which would be, you know, blow their budget or whatever. And they went, we can't do it. And they phone Netflix. They said, look, we've made a mistake. He's a lovely guy, but he's just not right, can we replace him?

And they went, well, by tomorrow. And they went, yeah. They said, well, I don't know. Can you? And they phoned me and I read them. And I said, it's the best thing I've read. I can't believe that you're making this. And I will pack my bags now.

And they went, well, pack. And my kids came down for breakfast and they went, where are you going, Dad? I'm so sorry, I'm currently all five months. I'll see you later. Really? Yeah. And I got there and I hadn't met any of.

I hadn't met Britt, who wrote, co-wrote it. Yeah. I met her in character. in Grand Central Station when I met her on screen. Oh, you see, that's how you dream. The amount of actors that dream of that happening. Yeah, no. And actually, funny enough, there's a time en masse

because I had a question about my part. You know, I remember I just got this thing. A few hours forward. It's got off the plane. Went bought a coat, I think, to play that. I can't quite remember the first day, but I went to Grand Central Station, and I said,

do you think he might X, whatever, some question about the guy, and Zal, Batmanlish, who co-wrote it with Brit, said, I don't know, you know the guy much better than me, what do you think? And it's one of the best, bravest pieces of direction I've ever come across, and it's what Fran said on Matt.

And it just makes you feel as an actor playing a part. Suddenly the shoes fit, and suddenly you feel like you are the person. You've been given agency. It's one of those shows, though, that you know people who have watched it and who got it. It's very funny. Oh, wait. There's a sort of nod and a wink. It's magic.

Yeah, no. It's like they have arrived from another planet. They've never seen anybody else's stories, any other storytelling, because they don't tell stories like anybody else. It's incredible. Okay, also, do you, what are the TV shows, the singing TV shows that you watch onto the duvet? I watch all of them, and I'm always crying. I watch the voice, I watch American Got Talent, Britain's Got Talent, I'll watch American Idol, I watch, yeah, I can't stop. And I'm an utter sucker for that horrible manipulative editing that they do that, you know, and the fake judging that they're

do and so it doesn't matter I just I love a good voice I'm like you I'm more about musical theatre in fact there used to be an AM channel in Los Angeles that only played show tunes and I'd drive around and I'd listen I'd sing along I love singing I'm terrible I'm terrible because I'm just half a note off I'm not so bad that I don't but I can hear I've got musical I can hear that I'm off and I would drive around singing and I'd pull up at traffic lights and someone look over and they go and they'd see me singing something from cats or you know cabaret that's off my voice and they recognize me from the Patriot or whatever they're looking

horror or from Black Court Down or something and I'd mouth, audition and then I'd drive off. Would you do a musical? I'd been off at a musical and I said, no, that's a terrible idea. I phoned the producers, I went, you're a moron or you're trying to lose the money?

Is it like the producers? I can't sing. People will ask their money back. They went, we can teach her. I went, believe me, I love singing and I am terrible and you will really get on the place. So they gave me the CD, they sent me the score on the CD and stuff.

And I drove around singing it for one At some point Emma said to me You're going to do that show? I said, why? And she goes, but are you going to do it? Because it's a recast You're not going to do a recast, so you're not going to do a recast. I said, well, probably not.

She goes, when are you going to decide? I've decided. She goes, you're definitely not doing it. I said, no, she went, then stop singing those fucking songs. You're driving us all mad. What musical was it? Are you allowed to say?

No. Oh my God. It doesn't matter. Any musical that I considered being in, if you're listening to this, don't buy a ticket if I change my mind and take the job.

Save yourself. Well, I'm going to do the greatest showman on stage. You could do that. I could not do that. I very much could not. I love musical theatre, though. I love it. So I can deliver a song like,

if they can auto tune from the wings, I'd do it. Okay. All right, I'm going to make a phone call. I always wanted to play Frankin Furtt. Always. Now you've said it. You know that you're going to get those calls. Yeah, but only by people

who've either tried to burn, you know, Russian mafia tax money or something. You will not make a profit with me doing a musical in the West End. Trust me. Or anywhere. The other thing, just finally I want to talk about, I remember seeing you on stage in Angels in America. I can't believe it was that long ago, but...

It's nearly 30 years ago. That was just... And yet neither us have aged today, Kathy. Not today. What's going on? I'm 33. I'm still saying. I'm always 33.

But that was incredible. That was one of the last times I felt like what I fell in mass. And actually... Oh, really? I remember... I was sitting in the wings. And I'm so sorry, I have told this. story before but it does make it less true and the older actors in it Harry Talvin

Susan Engel walked by and they went you're all right chase and I said no I was just thinking to myself that nothing will ever match this like whatever I do in my career whatever comes and goes nothing can ever touch this experience and instead of saying what I hope I'd say to a young actor now which is don't be silly got a whole life ahead of you said yeah we were just saying in our dressing room how glad we are it's come at the end of our careers oh my thanks a lot but actually something like I mean I can't remember anything like Mass, or rather, nothing has come along in the same way like Mass has.

I don't think, okay, even at my real age of 33, I've never seen anything like it. Congratulations. I urge everybody to see this because I want to talk to every, I feel like I need to sit around and discuss it. Somebody to support people who want to tell grown-up stories, sophisticated stories in the cinema without things blowing up that work. Instead of going to see things we think are worthwhile, I'm afraid I'm on the barest different juries and I have to watch lots of independent films and lots of them are very worthwhile.

They're really important they get made and they're boring as fuck. And this is gripping. And so if you tell a story with value that is entertaining, you know, and takes you on a journey, that's something people forget a lot when they have a worthwhile subject matter.

Oh, that's incredible. So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Coming up next week, It's comedian and host of the great pottery throwdown, Ellie Taylor. That Gabby Roslyn podcast is proudly produced by Cameo Productions, music by Beth McCari.

Could you please tap the follow or subscribe button? And thanks so much for your amazing reviews. We honestly read every single one and they mean the world to us. Thank you so much.