That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Jennie Godfrey

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

HR director turned bookseller turned bestselling author, Jennie Godfrey, joins Gaby for a chat about all things Joy!Jennie’s debut novel, The List Of Suspicious Things, became a huge hit from the moment it was published - and continues to find readers over a year at yer it was first published.Jennie shares her publishing journey with Gaby, as well as how much writing has helped shape her and bring her out of he shell. We love the book and we love Jennie and really hope you enjoy this chat!(Remember you can also watch each of our episodes on our YouTube channel - where you’ll also find our Friday Show n Tell!) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Number one, the list of suspicious things. Number one. Jenny, Gopper, you were number one. You were number one. How does that feel? I'm overusing the word surreal at the moment. You can overuse it. Overuse it, use it again.

So it is really surreal. I mean, you know, I sat down and raised a book four, five years ago, and now it's number one. Okay, so let's take you back in time, take you back. Okay, many people I know love you and they love your book. No, but really, and they say it's their favourite book. How did this, I know you're mad about books. Yes. And obviously, we're going to go back onto the real story

because your real story and growing up is quite extraordinary and obviously echoed in this book. But how did you say, I'm a bookseller, I'm going to write a book? What was that moment? Well, actually, I wasn't a bookseller when I decided to write a book. Oh, so the bookselling bit hadn't started either. In fact, I think you're going to love this story, Gabby. From everything I know about you, I think you're going to like this story.

So I had been a very serious corporate person. How serious? I used to be very serious. Lots of suits, lots of high heels. And I used to be the HR director for British Gas Business, and my whole life was my job. And I woke up one day at the age of 49 and realized I hated it. You hadn't thought that before? I'd had inklings before.

Okay. Yeah. But I don't think, I had a bit of a sort of come to Jesus moment. and I decided that I was going to give myself the gift of a year off while I decided or worked out what I wanted to do next. So being a writer was not in your head? That wasn't the plan. Oh, wow, wow.

The plan was to give myself a break mentally and physically. And I decided maybe a month after giving up that, a childhood dream had been to write a book. So why didn't I do that during this year off? And I've never actually gone back to work. So that's how it happened, that I gave up my job. Don't do this, listeners. Don't give up the day job before you've written a word, but I did.

But that's interesting. I'm going to interrupt you because you say don't. But what about the people that that is their passion, their dream and they're really unhappy at work? I know you have to pay the bills and bills are frightening, especially these days. But if you're that unhappy... Yeah. If you were in the situation I was,

which is that I felt like my soul was dying, then you need to do something about it. And I am grateful every single day. I felt like I was jumping off a cliff, but what happened is the ground rose up to meet me. That's the way I describe it. That although it was really... frightening, I actually found myself and I discovered that I am more comfortable with uncertainty

than I am with unhappiness, if that makes sense. Absolutely makes sense. Totally makes sense. And I think there are a lot of people who will be in the same position that you were in and we just, you know, people just think, right, we keep going, we keep going, we keep going, we keep going no matter what. Because bills to pay, mouths to feed, your own mouth to feed, where. Whether it's that they're on their own, whether it's there's a loneliness around it, whatever it is. But occasionally we all have to stop and think, okay, this is one life. Yeah.

What should we do with it? Yeah. It's amazing that you did that. I know. I mean, it seems insane looking back, but that's what I did. And I became a bookseller after I'd written the book and the world opened up again because it was 20-20 and we'd all been in lockdown. and I decided that I'd become a bookseller so that I could understand how bookshops worked

just in case my book was ever in a bookshop. Turns out it is. But also because I just loved books and I thought if I'm not going to do the job I did, what am I going to do? Well, I'm going to do something I love, which is work with books. So writing the book, it's all well and good,

somebody who was unhappy at work, decided I'm going to take you. year off, I'm going to write a book. But how do we get to Sunday Times number one bestseller? How did it get published? I mean, how did you do all of that bit? Well, I, again, it was during 2020. So there was a lot of time and space to research.

So I just really started to research the publishing industry, understood how it all worked. And again, I think I can say this on. this podcast about the universe coming up to meet me. You've got that vibe. But to give you an example, I had an agent, a literary agent who I really wanted to represent me in the book. And I sent her an email and she didn't reply and I was devastated about it. And three months later, that very literary agent wrote to me and said, I've been given your work by somebody else. And she'd never received my original email, but somebody had given her my work and she is the person who

represents me. So Eve... That's amazing. I love that story. Yeah. Yeah. It's meant to be. It's absolutely meant to be. So I've just had just brilliant good fortune, lots of synchronicity. and that wonderful literary agent gave my book to my now publisher at Penguin, who loved it, and has backed it from the very first moment that she read it. How wonderful. Yeah. So who was the person that gave her the literary agent, the book? So it was actually Curtis Brown Creative, who are a writing school.

Right, okay. And they, I joined one of their online courses, and they showed her the work. I know. See, I mean, I do believe in things like that. Magic does happen. Yes, it does. Whatever you want to call it.

Spiritual energy, whatever energy. But it happens and it was supposed to be. Then the book gets published. Yes. And then everybody's talking about it. Yes, I know. Is it, are you just covered in bruises because you're pinching yourself all the time?

All the time. And especially at the moment, like today on the way here, there is a book poster that I passed. It's everywhere. No, it's all on the tube. When I got, I arrived here, I just kept walking past and think, ha ha ha, ha, ha, there's a poster. And I know that I am absolutely living every writer's dream at the moment. And I'm doing my best to really lean into the joy of it. Good, good. That's what this podcast is all about. That's fabulous. I've got to ask the inevitable question.

Because for me, books, I love reading. They're very visual to me. If a book comes to life on the page and it's in my head and I've got a very vivid imagination, is it going to be a film, TV show, has Netflix bought it, have Apple bought it? Not yet. But I say not yet because I, firmly believe it will happen. It will. Of course it will. I want to cast it with you.

I can see, yeah. I've got two cast members so far. Okay. In my mind, they haven't agreed to it, by the way. But the two cast members I've got at the moment are the wonderful Nick Muhammad. Oh, I know Nick, right? Right. If you could tell him that he's going to play...

He's been on this podcast, okay. He's going to play Omar Bashir. Yeah, okay. who is a critical part in the book, who is the shopkeeper of the town where the girls live. He is my favourite character. I adorn Nick is, if you could tell him that. Complete delight.

Okay, we've cast him. Who else? The other person I've cast is there is a character who is a very charismatic, handsome plumber called Gary Andrews. And he's going to be played by Harry Stiles. You notice the silence Ed, do you know Harry Styles?

Oh, he knows Harry Styles There we go Right, okay So those two are already sorted Okay, so we've got Nick and Harry I think we'll go for it Because the book is set in Leeds And he's a Leeds man

Yes But no other cast then No that's all I've got so far Okay, I'm not going to throw my You know, this is up to you But obviously conversations are happening So don't say anything I can tell by you're nodding

which is lovely. And may it, it will be a massive, massive, massive hit. But as a book, for people who haven't read it, where have you been? Everybody else has read it. Rob Rinder sings your praises from the hilltops. I love him. He loves you.

For people who haven't read it, this is based on a true story, on your life, isn't it? Yes, so it's set in 1970s West Yorkshire and it's the story of 12-year-old Miv. And Miv's home life isn't great. Money is tight, just like now. And Margaret Thatcher's just become Prime Minister.

And there is an undercurrent of fear in Yorkshire caused by the murders of women that have been happening since 1975. And for all of these reasons, Miv's dad decides that he's going to move the family down south. And down south to any northern are listening. You know this. It's a terrible thing. It's a fate worse. death. And Miv decides she's going to make Yorkshire safe again by uncovering who the murderer is.

So she and her best friend Sharon, they write this list of suspicious things and they investigate them one by one. But in doing so, they uncover all the secrets of their community. And that's kind of the premise of the book. But it came from the fact that one of my most vivid childhood memories is of the day that Peter Sutcliffe was caught because it became apparent very quickly that my dad knew him. So I can remember I was 10, a little bit younger than MIV, but I remember my dad saying, but I know him, but I know him. Because the Yorkshire Ripper was, it was in the news every day.

Every time. Everybody was talking about it. Yes. And they've made some dramas about it, which we'll talk about. I know you haven't seen them. But it was there in everybody's mind, but you were in the area. In the area. My dad worked at the same depot,

and he was so shocked that this man who he had worked alongside could be responsible for such heinous crimes. And I just remember as a child, because we all knew about the Yorkshire Ripper, he haunted our childhoods. And so for my dad to have worked alongside him, it was an end of innocence moment for me. But also for your father, that...

Very much so. He didn't cope with that really, did he? Well, he went on to be a chaplain at a high security prison and he worked with some of the worst criminals that this country has ever seen. As a knock-on effect from... He would never say that because he's typical northern dad. He would never have said that. But I know that there's a link between the two.

It was his way of trying to understand how that situation could occur. So he, I mean, I can't get my head around the fact that your beloved father, your poor father, you know, went into work and would talk to Peter Sutcliffe and yet then see on the, turn the news on, see that picture and just point and think, but I see him every day. Yes. I mean, the shock of that is, it's, it's, I can't imagine. Thank goodness I can't imagine. But also for you to see your father say that, and this is what everybody was talking about for you. It's huge and heartbreaking and confusing.

Well, yes, 100%. What I found through writing the book is how many other children were affected. So whenever I do events, I'll always have somebody in the audience who will come up and they will say, yeah, we lived on the next street or my cousin's daughter.

went to school with him, whatever it is. Such a knock on effect, which we forget about it. Such a knock on effect, yes. And I did just say that the Long Shadow that came out, you haven't watched it. I haven't, but only because I wanted to tell the story from a different perspective. So the Long Shadow is the traditional story.

Actually, it's not the traditional story because it's very victim-focused, which is amazing. And it did beautifully done. It's a harrowing watch, but beautifully, beautifully done. Whereas the list of suspicious things is not about the murders at all. And it's not about him at all. It's about the community. It's my love letter to Yorkshire.

And love letters and community are so important. And I mean, oh God, without sounding cliche, do you feel that community is not the same as it was? A hundred percent. And particularly at the moment in the world, I just find it really hopeful that this book, which is fundamentally about, kindness, community and tolerance is number one.

It tells me something about human beings that we are reaching for goodness in a landscape which doesn't have a lot of it in it or it doesn't feel like it does at the moment. So I find that very hopeful. I think it's wonderful. How has your community there taken the book? Oh my goodness.

So so far, people seem really, proud and happy about it. There aren't that many books that are set in West Yorkshire. You know, it's not a... Not a beautiful part of the world. Yeah, but it's not a common setting for books. So people seem really proud of it.

And I was on, actually, probably the pinnacle of the publicity that I've done was being on Look North. Oh, you are so lovely. And I was on Look North, and it was a... It was amazing. It was so funny because afterwards, straight, I literally walked out the studio and somebody had contacted me on Instagram and saying, my parents used to live opposite your parents when in the 1970s. Do you remember me? And I was like, of course I remember you. But that's such a northern thing. You know, that sense of everyone knows everyone. I'm sure lots of people say that, but it feels very Yorkshire. It's very friendly. Yeah. I mean, as somebody who's born and bred Londoner, I go up to Yorkshire. And I honestly, I come around hugging it. It's just, oh, you're so lovely. You're all so welcoming.

Come into the house. Eat our food. Will I give you anything that we have? And also just so friendly and kind. And there is, I mean, I think, yeah, we're all totally, utterly aware of what's going on in the world. Even people who say they don't listen or watch the news, it gets fed to us all the time. But it's important to talk about kindness and joy because people are looking for it. And your book does exactly that.

And you do as well. That's what you, but that's what you want to do. Thank you. And yeah, it really matters to me. It always really mattered to me in the writing of it that it was hopeful. Because I wrote it or I started writing it at the very beginning of lockdown. And if you remember, it was really scary. We didn't know what the future looked like.

And it was a way for me to channel some hope, some joy. This is five years ago. You know it's five years ago. Wow. It just feels like yesterday to me. But that's five years ago that you said, okay, I'm going to, you thought, right, I'm going to write a book? Yeah, I did.

It's just incredible. So, and obviously the other inevitable question is, how do you follow that? Yeah, it's a big question for me too. I am about three courses the way through my second book, which I'm relieved about. I've pressed pause on writing for now because we're number one and that.

She's number one. I have to say we are number one because my goodness does it take a village to publish a book. We are number one. Thank you. There we go. And so I can't write at the moment. I'm just filled with adrenaline and a little bit, you know,

hopping around the place. But I go back to it week after next. It is also set in the... the past, so it's set in the mid-1980s, this one. But it's got a slightly more joyful research connected to it. So it's set in a very joyful historical moment in the 1980s, which is over live aid. Right. Oh my gosh. So do you know, the reason that I want your number one book to be on telly is because obviously there's going to be an amazing soundtrack as well. Now you're 80s. Hello.

Oh, you have no idea. Yes, if it's music-based. Well, you see, I am... Well, I'm from the era where music was everything. So music has threaded throughout the list of suspicious things, as you've seen. But obviously, even more so with the second book. And I am immersing myself in 1980s music. Okay, favourite 80s track?

So I work on magic, so we'll play it. It's 80s, 80s to now. But yeah. Soft sell. Oh, Tainted Love? Tainted Love. Tainted Love. But also, actually, I'm saying that.

The Cultu's Self Sanctuary. I'm quite an indie girl. Okay, okay, you can have both of those. Yeah. All right. Anything else? You get three. Get three.

Tainted love. I have to say, I remember every word of that. Oh, yeah. I mean, I was about 12 when it came out. I can sing most 80s songs, word for word. Go on. You ask me anything. I'm not actually going to sing, no.

A little bit of tainted love. Sometimes I feel I've got to Run away, I've got to Get away From the pain you drive into the heart of me The love we share seems to go nowhere Though our tires I've missed out the line

That's so embarrassing I'm basically looking at them saying You can take that out of No, he's not going to. He's keeping it in. He's saying, no. My friends are going to listen to me. No, they're going to love it.

They're going to be singing along as well. Pretty. So the new one is three quarters of the way done? Three quarters of the way done, yes. And do you have a deadline? Are you good with deadlines? I'm very good with deadlines. Oh, are you?

I'm really, like, I was a proper boffin at school. I'm really nerdy and meet deadlines. I like the good students. But my publishers are being really kind to me. Who's so like your surprise? I think because of the success of book one. Oh, is it number one the new one? Yeah, it's number one.

The first book, your book, your book, your book is number one. So they are very relaxed about when I get book two in, but we're hoping to publish next year. Lovely. Well, good luck with that, my goodness. Thank you. You were talking about the importance of your book and now and the world situation. It's very interesting.

There are a lot of people who say, oh, today's not like, the past. Oh, we didn't have this, but we did have this. If you were to compare the two, do you, I mean, I think every age is the golden age. I wish people didn't say, oh, I wish it were like, you know, no, we just, you know, make the most. But that's how I feel. I just wondered how you do. Because you write about the past. I am very similar, actually, Gabby, because one of the things about Lister suspicious things is it doesn't shy away from the darkness. that was also evident in the 1970s.

So there is a lot about racism in the book, there's a lot about misogyny in the book. And I actually think as a society, we are way more tolerant than we were then. Although it's people who might not be. Indeed. Thank goodness as a country, we are still staying with a more tolerant perspective,

she said, with her fingers crossed. So I think there are good parts and bad parts to every era And somebody said to me the other day about, Oh, you know, I feel like the world's ending And it didn't used to feel like that But of course I'm writing a book set in the 1980s Where I don't know if you remember, but we were terrified of nuclear war.

We thought the world was going to end tomorrow. You know, I've been writing about threads and about Zed for Zachariah, films that were about the end of the world and we thought it was imminent in the 1980s. They used to set, they used to try the alarms. Yes, exactly right. And so I feel like we are always afraid of the end of the world and the best thing that we can do is to, and I do feel like I'm about to say a cliche, but to be our best selves, even in the face of those challenges and to remember that at the heart of people is goodness. I do believe that. I do. I absolutely do too.

Yeah. I really do. There might be a couple that are not very nice. Yes. Let's put it that way. Yeah. But on the whole, there's good in everybody. Yeah. So what do you want people when they read the book to feel hopeful? Lovely. Hopeful. Absolutely. Hopeful. Absolutely. Because the 1970s weren't joyful. We weren't skipping through the tulips in 1970s West Yorkshire. It was a recession hit, extremely difficult time, particularly for the north. You know, the pits were closing, the mills had closed, but there was joy to be found and that's what the book is

ultimately about, about how in the face of really difficult circumstances, people found community and happiness. You are wonderful. You're on exactly the right podcast because you're a reason to be joyful in yourself. I do feel like I'm on the right podcast. I was thrilled to be invited. Oh no, well thank you. Because you spread a lovely message. Thank you. You are completely wonderful. Thank you so much for being on. You're very welcome, Gabby.