That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - John Whaite

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

On today's episode Gaby chats with Strictly finalist, Bake Off winner and TV chef John Whaite. He talks with sincerity about his struggles with mental health, his experience in the TV industry from his sky rocketing appearance on 'The Great British Bake Off' and of course, his groundbreaking appearance on 'Strictly Come Dancing'. John talks openly about his deeply personal beliefs, his relationships with his partner and his mum and looks back at the memories that have took him to where he is today. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to that Gabby Rosin podcast, part of the Acast Creator Network. Strictly finalist, bake-off winner and TV chef John Waite is my guest this week, and what a gentle man he is. Listen to him talk so incredibly openly about how strictly has affected him. He discusses deeply personal beliefs and gives us an insight into his issues and how he's coped with them over the years. This is a chat that I will carry in my heart for a very long time. Please can I ask you a favour?

Would you mind following and subscribing, please, by clicking the follow or subscribe button. This is completely and utterly free, by the way. And you can also rate and review on Apple Podcasts, which is the purple app on your iPhone or iPad. Simply scroll down to the bottom of all of the episodes. I know there have been quite a few now. And you'll see the stars where you can tap and rate and also please write a review. Thank you so much. wait. You are just a delight.

Oh, you're so sweet, law. No, but you know what? It was watching you on Strictly. Gosh, take this in the best possible way. I cried. I kept crying. It was so beautiful. I don't think I've stopped crying in all of this distance. Yeah, I've just read that. It's hit me really hard because, not least because obviously Strictly is like being on the highest mountain and all of a sudden you kind of plunged into the darkest hole afterwards, because of how humbled I am to have been able to do that

and how grateful I am, the inner child in me, how grateful he is to be able to see that now on television. It's been so healing for me, for Johannes, it's been so healing for many, many people across the world. And I just think, you know, I underestimated the power of it really when I signed up for strictly and the importance of it. And yet, here we are, it's done,

and it's changed people. people's minds. It's literally people have message to say I was very doubtful that two men could be beautiful dancing together. And this is from straight man. This is from women with children. You know, it's not just from members of the LGBTQ plus community. It's from just people, the vast majority of people who say, this has changed my mindset. And it's so humbling and reassuring. And I'm just gutted as well that we didn't have that when we were children. You know, we didn't have that representation. Do you think you would have felt differently about things if you had? Because you've always been very open about your sexuality. You've always been a very open person and about mental health and everything.

But do you think it would have changed things for you if you'd been able to see two men, you know, up on the screen, on a Saturday night, early evening, dancing together beautifully? Undoubtedly, I think what a lot of gay people suffer from is shame. And that isn't necessarily shame from a single pinpointable moment in their lives. It's from a lifetime of rejection and, you know, being bullied at school. For some people, it's parental rejection, familial rejection. Gay people are more likely to attempt suicide, 120 times, I think, is the latest figure, more likely as youngsters to be left, to be made homeless because of attitudes towards their sexuality.

And so, you know, while I don't want to harp on about it, because, you know, sometimes harping on about things isn't... You're not harping. You're not. But, you know, sometimes it annoys people, but I've realised actually we have to continue the conversation because if we don't, people literally lose their homes and they lose their lives to suicide. And it's so sad. For you, then, this has been, I know, obviously, Baker, there's so many life-changing things that have happened in your life. But this has been quite extraordinary for you, hasn't it? Strictly.

It has. It has. It's given me more of a feeling of life. Like it's made me realise that, you know, while serious topics such as gay acceptance is important, enjoying yourself and having a laugh also is really important. And it's been a beautiful balance, actually. It's been, it's helped with my eating disorder as well.

You know, I've not, I've not been to the day. gym very much and strictly because, you know, I'm bulimic, but also I know that going to the gym is a kind of manifestation of bulimia and I was overdoing it in the gym and I was knackering myself out. And so I've kind of shrunk a little bit in terms of muscle, but I'm not bothered because I don't feel like I need to be validated by my image in a way, which is strange because you'd think that strictly being the glitz and glamour, it would feed into that need for validation, that need for having your kind of aesthetic ego stroked. But actually it did the opposite for me. me appreciate the fact that with nutrition and nourishment and hard work, your body can create

beautiful artistry in front of millions of people. And I think that was a good eye-opener for me as well. It's so, you're so honest about things because you and I met, gosh, years ago when I was standing in for Lorraine and we shared things and you told me things. I remember. It's incredible how you, I mean, I actually, I don't want to embarrass me. you but I'm going to just for a second so you can block your ears, although that's not a good idea because you've got to listen to what I'm going to say. But there was something so incredibly beautiful about your soul and you didn't believe that about you. And I remember texting you when you were telling me about this thing. And I said, you're just a beautiful person. And it was

if you couldn't see it. But I feel that, and just hearing what you just said then about you're going to the gym and you'll believe me you and everything else, that you now realize that you are a beautiful soul, that you're beginning to accept it. I am and I think, you know, I always used to shy away from, I always thought that self-belief was crude and self-indulgent. But over recent years, I've kind of, one of my favourite quotes is that caring is by Audrey Lord, the poet. And it's caring for myself is not self-indulgence, it's self-preservation.

And that is an act of political warfare. And I realize that now, you know, it's okay to say, I am a good person, you know, I'm kind, I love people. I don't always make right decisions. I sometimes make bloody big mistakes that hurts other people in my life. But as long as we are open and honest with one another and talk about things and how we feel and how we appreciate how what we've done has impacted other people and how we can make amends and how we can grow together as a family

or a partnership, that's the important thing. It's not to beat yourself up and I think I did for a very long time. I think because of the gay shame, you know, that kind of shame percolated then into other areas of my life. And you start to become a self-loathing black hole. But in recent years, I have started to appreciate my value and my worth. And I don't, you know, ram it down people's throats. I don't shout, say, oh, I'm bloody brilliant, how fabulous am I? Because it's a much more personal thing than that.

It's a much more, it's being able to lie in bed and think, I did well today. Here's what I could have improved on. But what made that change for you? I think therapy. I think going through a great deal of therapy over the past, you know, however many years, since, you know, I had a bit of a wobble with the TV industry and it made me really reflect on my life and where I wanted to be. I almost started open to fish and ship shop and became a fish and chip man. In the midst of it, I got a job in an office for a little while a few years ago just to try and get a bit of normality and a little bit of a sense of identity. But I think I've realised that, Self-care isn't what social media always kind of pervades it as, which is this kind of, you know, buy a scented candle or use this bubble bath or eat these chocolates. Self-care is much more grueling and difficult and painful. It's about letting go of people who hurt you.

It's about letting, it's about accepting apologies if you feel you can. It's apologising to people. It's apologising to yourself. Self-care isn't, you know, glitz and glamour and unicorn-colored sparkles. self-care is getting your fingernails dirty in the mud and really working hard. That's real self-care. And I think therapy was a good help for that. I think having a partner who, you know, me and Paul have been together for 13 years

and we have a very understanding relationship where we talk about everything. I think it's about surrounding yourself by people who validate you and who pull you up when you need a life raft. Because in so many situations in life, we find ourselves surrounded by toxic people, but there's something addictive about poison, you know, whether it's alcohol, drugs, people. We often are so addictive, addicted to the things that are so damaging for us. And I think self-care is having the, not the strength, because that implies addiction is weakness and it's not, but having the awareness and the readiness to say, okay, I'm going to love this

and let it go. It's very interesting because one of the words that you and I were using over something that was happening with you was toxic and the way you were being treated. And it was as if you couldn't see past that. But for me, it's really extraordinary how just talking to you now, but also watching you on television. You look at the world differently. It's as if the blinkers have gone.

And I feel that lots of people had blinkered you. They'd put their hands up there and they said, right, don't look left. Don't look right. Just carry on doing that. And it wasn't you that had done that to yourself. and now you're able, the blinkers have gone and you go, I can turn my head everywhere and I can look at everything and that sort of wide-eyed excitement, sort of childlike excitement, which is so precious. It is precious and that is the perfect metaphor. It's given me goosebumps. It's brought a tear to my

eye because that's exactly how I felt. And when I first came into the TV industry and started doing, you know, cookery segments on Lorraine and like I say, we worked together on that. I did feel like I had to be very, very sensitive in what I said. because not just because of, you know, people who had blinked me in my life, but because of the people who watch and have opinions. We live in an age where opinions are just so heavily flung around, aren't they, without any regard for the damage that they might do, without any regard for what the opinion actually is.

So I finally feel like I'm in a place where I don't give a damn. Like I don't care anymore if somebody doesn't agree with me. I'm not, I wasn't put on this planet for the purpose of pleasing other people, you know. I want to have decent relationships with the people I want to have relationships with, which means I have to be mindful of their feelings and be careful about how I say words and phrase things I need to say. But generally, if I say something on television anymore, that people don't agree with. That's their problem. That isn't my problem. Hallelujah to that. Hallelujah to that. But you got you and Johannes, wow, your friendship is so beautiful. But you did get some abuse online.

I don't know why, I just felt so brokenhearted. And both of you spoke about it. But I suppose it was bound to happen and anybody would. And is that how you coped with it? I guess we knew it was going to happen. We fully anticipated a little bit of hate. Johannes being a black man as well, he anticipated a bit of racial hate, which he got.

He got racial and homophobic hate during the course of Strictly. Oh, no. But I think we had each other. You know, we had each other. And we also have. bloody thick skin now. You know, we've gone through years of, we both were bullied at school. We've both experienced rejection for being gay. I think every single gay person has. So with that becomes, with that comes an awareness and a thick skin. So the fact that we had each other

through that was, was beautiful. You know, we both felt the same reaction to it. But we both laughed it off as well. You know, we hit that block button. We did a little dance in our dressing and told them to just get stuffed basically. And I think having, you know, going through, that's the beautiful thing about Strictly as well is that you go through that whole experience with another person and you experience it together. And for the crazy 13 weeks that it is, it is so intense.

And so it's mad. It really is mad. It's bonkers. I look back now and think, how the hell did that happen? Did it really happen? It's like, you know, so the fact that we had each other to help each other through that was,

was beautiful. Oh, and what a friendship you've got. It's incredible to watch. But the whole of the last season of Strictly was, I think, by a long shot, the best. And I've always loved watching it. I love it, love it, love it. But, you know, Rose, I mean, what she's done is vast,

what you and Johannes have done. I mean, Rose and Giovanni together were beautiful and that people are now, you know, they're going into Parliament and they're talking about BSS, And I mean, what she has done and that silent dance, I don't think I've any ever, apart from that and the diversity dance about Black Lives Matters, those two dances, the power of dance on television. Yeah. Goodness may. It is, it's remarkable.

It really, it sends tremors through the entire earth to think that two people can do that on television and it can send those. massive shockwaves through the entire world is just so beautiful. It's so reassuring to think that we are finally here in a world where we can do that. And I remember speaking to Rose on the day of the final. We were sat on the stage and we were, you know, I was doing my best to kind of sign what I was saying, but she can of course lip read. And she said that 20 years ago, a girl like her would probably not have even had a job, let alone be an actor or EastEnders, let alone be, you know, in the biggest TV competition there is. And that I've realized. then that she had to win it. She had to win it because what she's done is is proven such a,

she's disjointed a stereotype. She's completely shattered an illusion of what people thought being deaf was about. And I think, you know, I think if I had got liquidable, I think I would have thrown it her way and said, this is yours love, because she's, she's done so much. She's done so much. And it feels like she's done it on her own as well. Like she's, she's gone there and she's got it. And she's so beautiful and kind and lovely about it as well. And I just, I love her. And it's so great to be spending time with her now. So what's the tour?

You know, I know everybody always goes on about the tour is grueling, but it's the best fun. I mean, you've got another few weeks left. I have this awful feeling that the end of it, you say you're crying all the time and I get that. I understand it. But oh my goodness me, how do you follow the series, then the live tour with your friends and Johannes,

there on stage. Wow. I mean, it must be incredible this tour. It is. I mean, this is like all the best bits of strictly rolled into one and it's so intense. It's, it's, you know, a little flash in the pan. But I think that is the key thing. I think, you know, life is a series of sometimes remarkable sparkly events. But for the most part, life is mundane. It's regular. It's repetitive. It can be very boring. But that's life. But that's life. And I think the more comfortable you are in those repetitive, mundane moments,

the better equipped you are to tear away from the sporadic moments of sparkle that we all get given throughout our lives. And there is sadness with that tear anyway. When something ends, it's deeply sad. But it doesn't kill you. And I think that's the key thing to remember is that you have to look back on those moments and have fond memories and be grateful that it happened. and accept that the fact that it's finished is sad and it's painful but something else another

moment of sparkle will be just around on the horizon isn't it and i think you've got to cling on to those hopeful moments of sparkle you've got so much sparkle coming can we take you back though to bake off obviously you know you i know it's it's very you've spoken so much about you were seven or eight years old and you started baking and you went to university and you did law and but then you did Bakeoff. Now, talk of life-changing moments. I mean, that was, and you won. And everyone was talking about you. That was the sort of first buzz. I mean, the buzz about you was incredible. It was, that was, that was, extraordinary. You were so young. I was such a child. I was such a child. You know, 22, I mean, I was a young man, but really, looking back at myself, I just wish I could

scoot myself up and protect myself from, from the, from, from, from, from, from, you know, from, everything because it was incredible to do bake-off. I had the time of my life, but I wasn't ready really for thought would come after bake-off, you know, for the industry that we work in now. Because to be plucked from being a fairly simple farmer's son who, you know, just kind of ebdenthroat flowed through life to being on television was quite, quite a difficult thing. I'd had that imposter syndrome, I think. You know, I didn't go to stage school. I didn't go to, you know, you know, I didn't have any media train. I just kind of had to go there and do it.

And I enjoyed it. Don't get me wrong. I was blooming lucky to do it. And I would never want to take that away from myself. I think I've got to be very grateful for the opportunity I was given. But I just perhaps wish I was a little bit older. I wish I was just, I wish I was where I am now in my own, in my own person. But having said that, you know, there's no point regretted because if I hadn't gone through that,

maybe I wouldn't be where I am today, you know, the person I am today. So everything happens for a reason as the old platitude goes, doesn't it? I believe that very strongly. But you straight from being on Bake Off, I mean, you've written so many books. You've had your cookery school. Is that still going or is that stop now? It will be.

Coronavirus messes around, obviously, and everything we'd worked for, crumbled away. So we're going to have to set that up from scratch again. But, you know, when the time comes, we'll do that. We'll do our supper clubs again. We'll do the cookery school because I really enjoyed meeting people every week and getting people through the doors and what greater way to get to know somebody than through food. And food, so food is still important to you. I mean, obviously, we talk about

your food issues, but that's very different to how much you love cooking food. That's a very different thing. It is because food for me is a creativity that I, it was my only creative output, you know, until strictly came along until I got more job presenting independently of food. And food was my only creative output. And it still is, you know, will never abandon my food writing career and my food my food career as a as a tv cook because it's you know it's it's served me well for 10 years it's been 10 long years since i started this this job and i don't want to abandon that and i love food you know i love i love creating new recipes and i love to to experiment and to try new things and and there's so much to be said about

identity you know i think i think food really serves to to deliver an identity or at least to represent somebody's identity, if we look at all the different cultures around the world and what they do in terms of festivals and celebrations of food, I think, and I feel sometimes that in this country, we almost lose that, don't we? In the age of fast food and fast fashion, fast everything, it kind of in a way sadly dilutes our culture and our identity. And, you know, I don't lament fast food, but it's sad when sometimes it overtakes that identity and that cause of celebration. agree. So at home, do you or Paul do the cooking? Is it always you or just Paul do it? No, you'll be your laugh at this for the past few months. I think since last year, since I got

the Strictly gig and I was then, you know, in the gym and following a very boring food root regime, I, Paul just would cook a batch of turkey chili every week. And so every single night for about a year, apart from the odd takeaway here and there are the odd fish and chips, every single night we would eat turkey chili with sweet potato, turkey chili with rice, turkey chili with a wrap, turkey chili with a baked potato if we're feeling fancy. I love it. Dave potato's fancy.

Love that. But speaking about the mundane regularity of life, there's now more mundane and regular than a blooming turkey chili of an eating. Well, actually, it's quite posh for a lot of people, wouldn't have turkey chili. It's quite posh. Well, no, perhaps not. But if you're eating it every day, I think that speaks volumes for the kind of person you are.

I think it means that you can quite easily cope with mundanity and regularity. I love that that Paul did it all, though. Does he ever get to a stage where he goes, hold on, you're the chef. Get on with the, get into the kitchen, you? No, because I think for 10 years I've kind of dominated and I've overshadowed his, his experiments in the kitchen. So I think the fact that he's now getting to do the cooking. And the thing about Paul is that he is the most nurturing person. I think I've ever met. He's my favorite person on the planet. You know, he really is. He's my best, best friend. And he, anything that he can do to, to nurture me and to provide for me, he will,

without any question. And that's why I sometimes feel so guilty, because I'm, you know, I'm having this fabulous life on Strictly, and it's all glitzy and glamoury and fabulous. And he's at home washing my dirty underwear and feeding the dog and taking the dog for a walk. But we've had vast conversations about this. And he wouldn't have it any other way. That's, you know, his, his, What he wanted from when he realized he was gay was to have a partner who he would grow old with and, you know, lie next to him on the deathbed with. That's what he wants. And I'm glad that I can give that to him. How did you meet you two? We met on Facebook. So before the age of like Grindr and Tinder and stuff like that, on Facebook, there was an app called Are You Interested? And practically it was Tinder. You just clicked on a profile picture of random profile pictures in your area were circulated.

and then you would click on one that you thought was fit. And we clicked on each other and then we went for a date. And on our first date, I ate so much food. He was so impressed by how much food I put away. Because usually on a first date, you'd have an amiga little lettuce leaf on you and try and not get too bloated. But I was there eating, I think I had a mezza and then a burger. And he said that he fell in love with me there and then

because he could see how passionate I was about life through the amount of food that I put away. And we just had such a laugh. From the moment we met, I knew that this guy was going to be my best friend for the rest of my life. Oh, my God. And it's, you know, I just, oh gosh, I love him so much.

That is just so wonderful. I wish he was here now. Is he there? No, he's not with you, of course. He's not on tour with it. No, I've not seen him for ages because of strictly, from the tour and stuff like that. He's, because we're bubbling on the tour. So I'll see him hopefully this weekend when I'm in Manchester.

But yeah, gosh, I miss him so deeply. He's just amazing. is amazing. Do you know, you've been together that long and you still feel like this. That is incredible. There's not many people you speak to go, yeah, yeah, well, we put up with you. Yeah, it's fine, it's fine. You're properly, deeply in love. It's just wonderful. Well, that's the beautiful thing I think about relationships is that they do go through, you know, transformations and they do go through dangerous patches. They go through roots. But I think if you want to make it work, you can. I think, like I said, we live in the age of fast fashion, fast food. And,

I think we often give up on things too quickly. That's not to say that if something isn't right, you shouldn't escape that situation because you should, you know, going back to self-preservation. And that's the difficult thing to balance, is where does self-preservation end and where does compromise and hard work begin?

Sometimes the two are inextricably linked and overlapped, but sometimes the two actually are slightly separate. And for me, I think it's just about making it work because I know the grass is always greener, isn't it? But at the end of the day, it always starts to mulch and turn to mud, just like every other piece of grass does. And sometimes you're just going to say, right, well, yeah, I could go and do that. I could go and have something better or what I thought would be better. But actually, I know that it would be the biggest regret of my life if I were to ever make an impulse decision and leave a relationship that I've worked so hard that we've worked so hard for 13 years.

And it's, you know, it is hard. Relationships are hard. Family relationships are hard. sexual relationships are hard friendly relationships are hard nothing comes easy we have to work on on ourselves and on other people do you you I get the feeling that you're very you're very open and very trusting yeah we are extremely we are very open and very trusting we talk about but you as well though I mean I feel that you're very you trust people I never used to and sometimes maybe they let you down but you

you will trust somebody, which is a wonderful thing to have. I am. Sometimes it's a curse, though, because sometimes I trust people too much, even when I can see them doing my harm. Right. And I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, even if all the evidence, you know, because of a law degree, I always look at the evidence. I always try and analyze the evidence.

But then my emotional side of me comes in and says, oh, well, you can ignore the evidence. And that's my downfall, I think, is that I do trust people too much. I never used to, I used to be quite closed and quite paranoid and jealous. But that was, I think that was because of the shame, because of not being comfortable in my own skin. And I think that's the thing. I think we often write people off sometimes when they are perhaps showing behavioral traits that are a bit damaging, a bit negative. We sometimes think, oh, they're a bad person.

But what Paul's taught me, I think, is to, you know, to give that person time, to let that person grow, to help them heal. And if after that time and that healing, they still cause your pain, then you have to let them go. But that's why I think I respect Paul so much is because he's, you know, through all my mental health battles, he has been constant, he's been consistent, he's never judged. Even if I've been the most horrific boyfriend imaginable, which I have at times, you know, I'll hold my hands up. He forgives me, he works through it with me, and he has helped me.

And that's why we're in a strong position now, I think, is because as I've, you know, got to become a man, 33 years old, I know a bit more about myself about the world and the importance of relationships. Because when you're old and grey and, you know, the lustre of life is starting to fade, you're going to want to have someone there with you, aren't you? You know, you're not going to worry about having those 20 one-night stands, but the one person that you've dedicated your life to, you'll want them there with you, I think, holding your hand.

When you were little and you were on the farm and with your sisters, Did you ever see anything vaguely like this happening in your life? No, I didn't. I thought, I mean, I always used to do drama. Like I used to go to like a little drama group, an Amdram group from the age of four. And I was the mirror in Snow White at Chawley Little Theatre when I was four. So that would have been 1994, 1995.

And I always knew there was something more to life than the farmer. I mean, I love the farm. I love the countryside. And we moved away from London back to the countryside about four or five years ago. So we could get a log fire and get a dog and have a bit of more of a rural lifestyle, cozy nights in the pub with friends. But I still have, I'm a performer. You know, I like to do everything I can to show off and be a bit jazzy.

And I used to think showing off was a bad thing. But actually, if you're providing entertainment for somebody, which is what we do is presents as well, isn't it? We entertain. I think you have to embrace the fact that side of you and really cherish it and nurture it. So I always knew there was more to life than just cow muck and whatnot. But it's so extreme the difference between this little lad on the farm and then you get into to do law.

I know you'd change because you were going to do medieval languages, weren't you? Did I read that was right? I was quite clever. So my parents pushed me forward. for Oxbridge and I got into Oxford. I went to St. John's College, which I only applied to St. John's because of the, looking at the ratio of applicants to acceptance, I knew there was a higher chance of me getting in. You know, I didn't care about the faculty itself. I just thought, right, I've got to get in. So I got into St. John's and I went down for a little while.

I had to St. John's. I went down for about six weeks and started my course there, my medieval and modern languages. And I just, I hated it. I didn't fit in. I didn't have the self-confidence to stand up against, you know, people who have been to private school, Like some person from Bermuda's son, some really important person in Bermuda, his son was there at the time. And I just felt like this country bumpkin who'd rocked up to Oxford to try and, you know, tick a box in terms of acceptance. That's what I genuinely felt like. They were just letting the lad from, the farmer's lad from Wigginen because, you know, they needed that diversity. I don't think that was the case at the time.

Looking back at my grades and stuff, I think I deserved to be there. But the imposter syndrome, the imposter in me kind of said, oh, you ain't good. enough for this boy. So I just wanted to get out of there. And I missed, you know, I wasn't, I don't think I'd gone through the separation from my, my, my mom either. You know, I think, because my parents got divorced when I was younger, I think that kind of stalled the emotional separation that we all go through from our parents. I don't think I really achieved that until the past three years, actually. Wow. Because my mum was my best friend for so long. And yeah, so I wasn't ready to be at Oxford. And I don't think I would, even if I've,

went there now. I don't think I would enjoy it. It's not my cup of tea, basically. You know, I'm not, I'm not that kind of guy. What, I mean, you were saying you were bullied at school as well and then the imposter syndrome. And I just, there's a part of me that wants to meet you back then and say, you're okay. You know what? You can do this. It's like you didn't believe that you could, but actually, if you'd stayed there, you wouldn't be doing all of the things that you do now. You know, it's amazing how life, that path that you've, you know, you went to Manchester, you did look, was it Manchester, wasn't it? Was it Manchester? Yeah, it was Manchester, yeah. And you did law and then you worked in a bank. And that was your route into this crazy world that maybe if you'd gone to Oxford, it wouldn't have been like that.

It might not have been like that. But, you know, and I wanted to go to Guilford. I got into, I got a callback for Guildford. No, that's where I went. I was at GSA. Is it? I went to GSA. GSA? You went to GSA? Well, like, because I auditioned for the way when I was at college. After I dropped out of Oxford, I auditioned for Guildford. I got a call back and my parents were very reluctant to let me go there

because I think they feared the rejection, because there's a lot of rejection in this industry, isn't there? And I think they wanted to protect me from that pain. But what's interesting is I got there anyway. You know, I got there anyway. And I think that's when you know that it's just, it's meant to be. And I, you know, I hate speaking in platitudes. I think we can analyze things much more intelligently than that.

But, you know, it was meant to be, I think, the way that it just unfolded naturally. And, you know, I've worked hard for bake-off from a law degree. Don't get me wrong. But I've been very, very lucky and fortunate in the opportunities that have come my way. So, yeah, I feel very, very proud and lucky and happy and privileged to be sat here talking about it from a hotel when I'm on tour with Strictly. And, you know, it's, again, it's one of those things that is unremarkably remarkable, because it happens so gradually and gently over the course of many years. But when you look at it in a vacuum, it is so remarkable and so life-changing.

And I feel extremely lucky about it. I presume the West End is beckoning now, isn't it? That would be a lifelong dream. That would be a childhood dream come true. Because you can sing as well, can't you? I can hold a tune. I'm not the best singer. I can sing more of a chorus singer,

But I think with a bit of training, I'll be able to hold a couple of numbers in the West End. But I enjoy it. You know, I enjoy, I enjoy music. And my dad, my dad was very musical. Well, he still is. He's still around. He can play pretty much any instrument you throw at him and he can write music. And I think I kind of abandoned that for many years.

I thought the intellectual academic route was the thing to follow. But I'm not, I'm not academic. I'm clever, but I'm not interested in reading all the books and, you know, more and over the information. Well, I think I'm a bit of both. I think I neglected my performance side for so many years. Now that he's back, the John who sparkles on stage, I absolutely, I'm so excited. I have in my head the roles that they're asking you to do. You do.

I've actually got quite a few roles that I can imagine they're wanting you to do. And all I'm going to say is that it's fantastic. It's a wonderful thing to give it a go. And if you've got that flame inside you, sometimes you just have to stoke that flame. You do, don't you? You do, because I think we often silence little parts of ourselves, don't we, just to get on with life and to pay the mortgage and to feed the dog.

But sometimes you have those itches and you have to just scratch them and you have to, and again, that's part of being kind of yourself. It's taking risks. It's taking that leap. Completely. Oh, you are a joy. John, I truly, I feel so close to you. It's incredible.

You're a very special man. So on this podcast, we always talk about what, we ask everybody what makes them barely laugh. So I've seen you lose it because, and in fact, I remember what it was about. We were both being very crude and we got told off afterwards. We'd been crude about, I think it was nothing to do with meringue and cream. And we got told off saying you just, we took it too far. and then we both got, we couldn't stop laughing. So what makes you belly laugh?

For me, I've got a really quite a dark sense of humour. You know, I shared that with my mum. My mum used to be a nurse. So she has got gallows humour. And when me and mum get together and talk about stupid, like, quite dark things, it just makes me how, last week I'd tour, I was on the way up to pack lunch in the car and I was speaking to my mum on the phone.

And I haven't laughed like. I can't remember what we were laughing about. It was her selling a story on me. She imagined trying to sell a story on me, and she'd be sat on the front cover of hello in a dirty nighty with a hair or greased back with, like, large and stuff and clutching a little dog in one hand and telling a story about how, like, I ruined her life.

And, you know, that's the kind of, that's the kind of humor we have, this kind of sarcastic, almost of a bit nasty humor. And I just remember being in the car up to the pack lunch, and I was crying with laughter, and it was so refreshing because I haven't laughed like that. I don't laugh a lot. You know, I'm quite, I'm, I'm a, I'm a content person, but I'm not, you know, I'm not the giddiest. I can be quite giddy, but I don't, I don't remember.

I've seen you like that. We were being told off because every, we kept doing dobel entendre's live on air. And afterwards, we were, they came onto the floor and they said, with you to, look, you can't do that. And we, but we were really properly giggling. And then you, I think he texted me afterwards and said, I think we got into trouble. And we had because we were being so naughty. And that was you giggling.

So that's how I remember you as well. No, I guess I am quite giggly. But I think increasingly I've been a bit more like, tried to be sensible. But when I laugh with my mum the other day, even she messaged me and say, she said, I haven't seen you like, I haven't spoken to like that for ages. Where have you been? I think, you know, I think all the hard work and stuff, like it's just kind of sidetracked me. And to have that laugh at my moment for her to say, welcome back.

I think she can see that finally. I've achieved what I wanted to achieve all my life. And I'm happy now. And the son that she always loved and the best friend that she had is back. So, yeah, I think a bit risky humour is always what gets me. Pushing boundaries with humour is what gets me. And, yeah, very dark, gallows humour as well. I just can't resist that.

John, that was the perfect place to stop. Thank you so much. You've been brilliant. What a joy to speak to you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for listening. Coming up next week is comedian and presenter Joe Lysit.

That Gabby Roslyn podcast is proudly produced by Cameo Productions. Music by Beth McCari. Could you please tap the follow or subscribe button? And thanks so much for your amazing reviews. We honestly read every single one and they mean the world to us. Thank you so much.