That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Judge Robert Rinder

Episode Date: June 27, 2021

In this episode Gaby chats to Judge Robert Rinder MBE. They discuss the important qualities of true friendship, trying to see the good in all people and Robert speaks very openly about depression. He talks of his amazing episode of ‘Who Do You Think You Are?’ and his powerful documentary called ‘The Holocaust, My family and Me’ available now on BBC iPlayer. He relives the fun of ‘Strictly Come Dancing’ and his recent stage performance at The Garrick Theatre for Dr Ranj’s ‘Scrubs to Sparkles’. Plus, how it felt to receive his MBE that he shares with his mother. There are a lot of poignant stories in this and of course plenty of giggles!  Produced by Cameo Productions, music by Beth Macari.  Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter @gabyroslin #thatgabyroslinpodcast For more information on the sponsors of this episode: Grass and Co. - Find your calm 25% OFF, plus free shipping at: www.grassandco.com/GABYUse discount code: GABY at checkout. Remy Sleep - Get 15% off any weighted blanket and free next day delivery at www.remysleep.com use discount code: GABY15  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Before we start this episode, I'd like to tell you about something rather exciting. It's rather fantastic and I'm getting very embarrassed telling you about it. But hey, what the heck? The British Podcast Awards are happening in July 2021. And they have a Listeners' Choice Award. And yes, you know what I'm going to say. Where you can vote for any of your favourite podcast. Okay, I'm blushing.

I'm embarrassed to ask. But if you could very kindly vote for this podcast, we will love you even. more, but we love you hugely. I don't know how that can get even bigger, but we really will. You simply go to Britishpodcastawards.com slash vote. And then please, if you wouldn't mind, type in that Gabby Roslyn podcast to vote. That's Britishpodcastawards.com slash vote and type in that Gabby Rosalind podcast. There we go. I'm embarrassed for asking, but there we go. I asked. Oh no. If you can do it. Thank you. Now on with the show. I absolutely adore.

this week's guest. Judge Rob Rinder is full of the most incredible, moving, inspiring stories. We talk about so much from the important qualities of true friendship, seeing the good in all people, and he speaks very openly about depression. Plus his amazing episode of Who Do You Think You Are and his powerful series called The Holocaust, My Family and Me on BBC I Player, which I urge you to watch. And of course we chat all about Strictly Come Dancing And his recent stage performance at the Garrick Theatre for Dr Ranches Scrubs to Sparkles Plus his Mb-E that he shares with his mum There are lots of poignant stories in this episode

And of course plenty of giggles too Enjoy I'm so glad you can't see me Robert Rinda what do you mean if you could see me What are you wearing? Well I just come in from the gym I go every morning and I sort of got dressed in a panic and it's one of those things where, I mean,

I'm a bit like the gay that style forgot anyway, so it's not like I have a range of options that make me look in any way sort of cool. I mean, I don't think there's any kind of way of making me look cool. But I just sort of looked in the wardrobe and said, yes, that'll do nicely. So... So...

So what are you wearing then? I'm wearing a pair of far too small for me track suit bottoms. a queen t-shirt, not queen the band, that would be cool, you know, with a Feddy Mercury, a nod, a thing, what's what I'm looking for, an homage to Ferry-Murkey, it just says, queen across it, and you have put on so much weight that my belly's coming through. So it looks like I've eaten Her Majesty, and I'm wearing a hoodie that's gone on top of it. Again, that doesn't quite fit.

And it's my Camp America hoodie, only it's basically going over my left breast, which has so big. So I'm wearing Camp America, which used to sort of look like as it was, as it's supposed to, encouraging young people to go and volunteer at various, for various young people around America,

but looks more like I've been, I'm a great big blimp advertising, doing jazz hands going across the United States. Do you know, I know that you're exaggerating because you're beautiful. No, no. There's no way it just goes over your breast.

That is one of your most frustrated qualities, Gabby Roslyn. And people should know this about you. Is your flagrant, incurable capacity? It's almost aggravatingly limitless to see the good in people. You know, it's like sort of Mary Poppins on steroids. That's why you speak at my parents used to say, that I was Mary Poppins mixed with Pollyanna. You are constantly playing the glad game.

And actually, as you know, Polyana is one of my favorite films. In fact, I think it's a philosophy that we all not could. Well, of course we could, but we all should share in. For, you know, people that don't know, it's when the fit hits the Shan. It's looking at whatever the detritus of your life is and trying to find something glad about. So, you know, famously in the novel and in the wonderful Haley Mills film, She tells a story of when her parents were missionaries, both of whom die. And she wanted a doll, but instead in the missionary barrels, two crutches arrived.

And so they thought, how can we be glad about this? And she was, you know, she was really upset about not receiving her doll. And she said, well, how glad we are we don't have to use them. Which I know sounds like it's a bit saccharin, and there's probably listeners reaching for their sick buckets. But it's a beautiful and powerful and game-changing way of curating. the world around you. And you do it all the time. And it's absolutely aggravating because I can't get there. I'm a rubbish polyam. No, you're not. No, you're not because your big thing is joy and hope. You do. You always talk about joy and hope. You do. And it's important. I try to. I try to. But it's

helpful, isn't it? I think as we get older, you know, the people who come into your life, you get a better sense of judgment about. And, you know, I'm increasing. convinced that, well, not convinced, I'm now sure of it, that as we've gone through life and we've all had our struggles, tragedies and challenges. And for lots of people, those have become more pressing and acute in the last, well, seven, eight, nine months during COVID. But, you know, the thing is that one thing that's, I think, obvious is that there are a significant number of people, even on the borders of our lives, and certainly people close to us, who have the capacity to sit with us when things are going really badly, you know. And there's a rather false proverb or saying

that's coming to sort of common use about friends really being there when things go wrong. I think that's balls. You know, I think it's easy actually or easier to be a friend when people are struggling or in crisis because you can do something. And yes, of course that's critical and important and you know it's not an optional extra to be a friend but that's not really the magic i think what really matters in friendship is when things are going well or when something good happens the people who you really want to bring into the bosom of your inner world are the ones who you can't wait to phone when something good has happened and you know that they're going to be delighting and almost sharing in fact not almost sharing in the joy of your success

And I think those people, those people are harder to come by, don't you think? Oh, completely. And actually, because I think there's so much, do you know, one of my least, I think it's probably up there as my least favorite emotion is jealousy. I think jealousy is a very, very dangerous thing. It sits alongside greed, greed and jealousy. And to be able to celebrate with somebody, and they truly mean that they are proud of you,

they're pleased for you, they're delighted for you, is a really, that's a true friend. But we have to be honest about our jealousy too and have to get less complicated about it. So, I mean, you know, we're all human and one of the difficulties is, you know, as much as we want to be saintly, I mean, it does, we live in a society which imbues us all into a sense of competitiveness. And of course, I always say to my young Godotis, you know, we're looking, around at the world and getting, you know, phoma all the time, which I've had to learn, fear of missing out. And I suppose it doesn't help us, you know, professionally, emotionally, emotionally, practically to look at other people and where they are on there. Sorry, I'm going

to use this word, but it's important, journey. You use the J word that early. Sorry, love. I know. Oh, what's going on that doesn't help you. But we also have to acknowledge, we can't help it. We are consciously and subconsciously, whatever community you're in, imbued into a sense of competitiveness. And actually, we do feel jealous and envy when somebody does well. What we need to do with that is to understand

where that's happening in our minds and our body and go, okay, that's okay. And then be delighted about it. Yes, but don't you think jealousy and envy are two different things? Jealousy can be so, it can lead to a sort of such a negative side, Whereas envy is sort of saying, oh, you know what, that person has the big house that I've always dreamt of having. How wonderful for them, or wouldn't it be nice to have it? And the jealous person would say, I hate that person for having that house I'd always wanted.

Yeah. I mean, I think both of those things are true, to be sure. Although it's important to acknowledge for our own, the completion of our own humanity, which is a posh way of saying, we always have to be mindful of the darker features, a darker ingredients of who we are, because those are constituent parts of what makes us human too. And without them, we can't have a complete sense of empathy

for people who do bad things. And so we also need to acknowledge that we are jealous and we are envious. Not interesting that we go there, because I completely fell in love when I first met you and we have a dear special friendship and you're very much part of our family. I really think that.

I mean, just adore you to pieces. And but always again... Well, let's just say what it is. I am a big fact, right? So, I mean, let's not tell pork is about it, Gabby. Right. So I'm not impressed. I'm not telling. That's true.

I do love you. No, no, that's not untrue. It's not that bit. It's just that that's, you know, Your listeners should know, or people listen to them should know, that it's never not cool for me to see you. So let me explain what I mean, is that, you know, over the years, I suppose because mates of mine, you know,

I was at University of the Commonwealth, like, mega famous. And they're lovely and all of that. But once you've seen famous actors, I don't know, or people who are movie stars or pop stars, after the initial flush of recognition, you've got to sit down and talk to them. And, you know, some of them are interesting, but some of them, you know, you're sitting next to one of them,

you're praying for soup so you could drown yourself in it. Yeah, no, but Benedict Cumberbatch, your best friend. Now, he is. I would, I'd lick him all over. Yes. Really? Yes. Oh, good Lord.

Well, that's so, I suppose that's weird for me, because I've known him since he was young, and I just sort of someone licking him when he was a student. No, I don't mean literally. I mean, you'd need to put bleach on your tongue, I would have thought. I mean, you're all stupid. But the reason it's cool, though, Gabby, is because, you know, you are on telly when I was young on the Big Breakfast. And, you know, it's when telly was different when it existed, certainly for me and lots of us, in a totally different zeitguise and a different kind of emotional space.

So every morning before I went to school, sorry, ages a bit, I would put on the Big Breakfast and there would be, you and Chris Evans and you know you mattered you changed the emotional conversation before school is what we would talk about and the people who were famous and occupied that space when you were young never stop being famous never stop being people on television never stop that little delighted stomach dropping moment and every time I see you like even though we're friends now I go oh my God That's Gavin. You'll just sit. No, you're just, you're just, stop.

No, that's the way it goes. I was the same with Andy Peters. Thank you. That's tickled me. I don't know why that really has tickled me. I can't forget what we were talking about now. I completely, you completely thrown in. Jealousy and envy, I think.

No, oh, I know, that we always, that we always end up talking about good and bad or does evil exist. It's such a fascinating conversation. And I, you also, do look for the good in people. And obviously you've been face to face with, which we're not going to talk about in this, because that's not what this is about.

This is about joy and entertainment and fun and happy and things that make you happy. But you have looked into the eyes of some of the truly bad. I'm not going to say the word evil, because you've taught me about that, but the truly bad people and the way that things have happened to them in their lives, and now this is how they're coping,

and this is what they do. And yet you do see the good in every, So again, thanks for talking about this. I think it really matters. It's not so much the good. It's about the complex. It's about the range. And that in all but the narrowest, and I mean the narrowest group of human beings, there is this capacity for good and joy and delight. And, you know, the reason that we've talked about, and I've pulled it. you up in the past for want a better way, but again, about the word evil is it's too easy. So often when somebody commits even the most wicked offence, the most unimaginable offence, the way we get to distance ourselves between us and them as a human being, a human being did that act, is by calling them evil. It's one-dimensional. It requires you no longer to consider the various things that that human being was, before.

they committed that terrible act. And so once we've called them evil, we've deprived them of their humanity, they then become a monster and other. And so we can sling them in the bin. And we don't have to confront all of the reasons, a complex set of reasons why they found themselves doing that evil thing. And a human being has done that. And unless we understand that, we deprive ourselves of, as I said before, our own completion of our humanity and who we are. That's not bleeding-heart liberal stuff either. That's staring into the face of it when you've had the privilege of sitting in prisons. And, you know, are you two very quick examples, two very different ones? I have been face to face with somebody who has psychopathy and sociopathy. And that's a nearest thing to that

evil word. And what I mean by that is that there's somebody that lives in the world that understands the difference between good and bad and makes a determined choice to do wicked things and by wicked things morally depraved things. And when you are in the presence of somebody like that, what's so strange about this? And you, in your life, Gabby, which I'm always so moved by, genuinely moved by in a really un, well, in a very persuasive way that feels inclusive, I think, is that you have a very loud and proud spiritual complexion to your life. And when you're in the presence of somebody that has those features of their life, psychopathy or sociopathy, anybody that's been in those spaces alongside with somebody like that,

they change the energy of the room. They have this overwhelming power to determine the mood of the space. And you feel exhausted when you've left. And I've dealt with cases like very few. But in the vast majority of the cases, even where, somebody has done something objectively terrible, you can see the complex set of reasons of how they've ended up on the other side of the table from you. And sometimes the person opposite will be funny, talented, poetic, challenging, loving even, has all of those things. But there's a series of

other factors that have led them to commit the act or to do the thing that we now deem as evil. That's not to say they shouldn't be punished. That's not to say the law shouldn't apply. But unless we spend the time, intellectual and emotional energy coming to understand who that person is, well then we rid ourselves, not just to the interest of being alive, but we can't fully form our optimism and our hope for humanity, I think. Everybody talks very beautifully about your who do you think you are and watching it again yesterday because you know that I've watched it because I when I message you straight afterwards and and I've watched it a few times and there that moment where you meet your grandfather's friend and and he talks about no food

and the way he speaks is from so deep within his soul so deep within his heart from his psyche it's most extraordinary words he would have seen what he perceived as evil. And all your family that died in concentration camps, they saw what they perceived as evil. And so that's the conversation that we always have. But somehow they humanise it. It's quite extraordinary. Do you know, yeah, before speaking today, really randomly, and I'm a YouTube fanaticist. and I found a video and it was the brother of a person,

a man who had been murdered by a police officer in America. And she argued that she had accidentally gone into the wrong flat, not realizing she'd gone into the flat of this man, an African-American man, and shot him thinking she was in her own flat, and she was convicted of murder. And the brother, the brother, of the man who was murdered.

And anybody, if you get the chance, please watch it. Sat there in the court and said, it moves me now. I don't hate you. I forgive you. I want the best for you. And he looks up to the judge and he says to the judge, please can I give her a hug? This is the woman who has taken his brother's life.

And there's such a power in forgiveness. And, you know, coming on to what you were just talking about, standing in that forest with my grandfather's friend, he said, I'd like to tell you what your grandfather looked like. And as he held my hand and touched my hand and said, let's walk out together. Which was the most profound moment. You know, because, of course, there's just a jagged suggestion of what was there before of industrial death. Now nature has won and grown over it, like a blanket. almost asphyxating covering the dark memory of what was there. But what you didn't see is that there's a tiny little museum in that place. And in that place, that museum has been curated and created by a group of local East Germans who insisted, because it was about to be pulled down, that it's a place of memory. And when you see Sir Ben Healthgaut and when you meet any of the survivors and you speak, to them and I've spoken alongside them or really interviewed them in a variety of schools up and down the country.

The question that every young person asks the survivors is why don't you hate? And they have an answer which completely changes the emotional chemistry of the room and everybody being near them forever. And the answer is because hate would only serve the other person, because they've had to consciously choose optimism and hope. Otherwise, how could they continue? And it's just the most overwhelmingly powerful thing. You know, in Jewish culture, which, you know, I'm very sort of proudly talk about and part of, One of the things I love is that, you know, if somebody dies, and it depends on your level of orthodoxy,

but it's a generally kind of, it's a sort of standard approach. One of the things that you're not supposed to do is have a celebration in the year of morning, unless it's already booked. In other words, you never cancel joy or an opportunity to party, to have Sima, to have delight, even though you're supposed to be mourning because there are so few opportunities to do that. And it's an overwhelming sort of, it changes everything once you have this sort of power, not to forget, but the capacity to forgive because you have then the ultimate ability to to let go. And when you listen and hear, when you hear,

and I use that word again, you hear the survivors, that's their message. And it's a message that still sits alongside us, but increasingly it's becoming a distant echo. And it's so, so important. You feel it when you say, I forgive.

I mean, I've made a two-part documentary, about the Holocaust, and it's called The Holocaust, my family, and me. And really, it's about other people learning about their stories. And there's a political complexion to it. All the stories apart from my own are in Western Europe, and that matters more than ever today, because it talks about complacency and the idea that we think we're at the apex of civilization. Well, so did they in Germany and in France and in Holland.

And it took less than 10 years, or less to descend into unimaginable human depravity. But it's also a story about trauma and how these people have been parented by those who have gone through just the worst thing imaginable. And that has resonance for everybody that very often the people who parented us were damaged themselves. But the thing that was most profound for me in this experience was I got to take my mum to Treblinka. where my grandfather's family had been murdered, so my great-aunts, but my mum's aunts and uncles and her

grandparents. And what the director hadn't told us, Gabby, was that moments before we arrived, I'd done my research, as you can imagine, and I had been under the impression that the last survivor of Treblinka had died, last eyewitness, because it was leveled in 1943, thereabouts, and it was just a pure death camp. moments before we arrived, I was told by the filmmaker that actually the last survivor is alive and he's from a town to the west of Guttemberg and he'd agreed to be there today because he'd seen my mum on who do you think you are and he didn't want to come but he wanted to stand on that ground again. He's 90 plus 93. Oh my word. And his name is Leon Ritz. And as I walked across that ground and it's not

like the curated terror of the Museum of Auschwitz. It's that complicated space, like so many places of horror. Whereas I say, you know, it doesn't look as you would want it to because the sun was out and it's a park. There were even picnic tables as you come in. And as you get onto the ground, there are these stone monoliths and various stones which represent the towns where people had come from, who had been murdered in that place and all of the human bodies underfoot. But as I walked towards this old man, he looked at me and I looked at him

and I asked him what had happened and he sobbed on my shoulder. And then there was a moment which is why we went there and why we went there was to make the Kurdish, the memorial prayer, matter to my mum. Not for completion or closure, which is a word we really need to have a think about in general in terms of grief and everything else

because you can't really get that. It sits alongside you always. But it mattered in the ongoing conversation that my mum has with the trauma and grief of her experience of being a second generation survivor, that she had the gift of being able to make the memorial prayer on that ground. And so the three of us went to stand together to make the cuddish. And he's quite religious.

And my mum's observant too. And she took out a prayer book that my grandfather owned. He's now he died in 2001. And I was about to say the names of our family just before my mum made the memorial prayer. And I don't know, I've seen the rushes. That means, you know, I've seen the film back and I know it felt like this, but I can't tell you it happened. I felt Leon reach around my mum and touch me on the shoulder. I know I was touched on the shoulder, even though I've watched the film back and he didn't physically.

touched me. But as I was about to exclaim these names, my names, our names, to breathe humanity back into our relatives, he said no. This is for all the living people of the world. And...

Oh my word. Sorry. It's the most profound thing that's ever happened, you know. And that's optimism and joy and hope. Somebody who had touched the face of horror and seen it and yet was there with his son

and had chosen to live his life in a different way who had almost taken like a golden thread and woven it into this magical tapestry and held it up to the world and it changed everything for me anyway. You've completely flawed me. That's, I mean, I'm, to say I'm looking forward to seeing that feels, it feels very flippant,

but to actually physically see that. as you've just spoken about it but it sort of makes me feel even more it's really throwing me it's made me feel even more so that my love of life which occasionally before my mum died many years ago

I used to always say I'm sorry yes I love life oh I'm sorry I'm lucky and then when mum died I decided that I was never going to say again apologise for enjoying life because I do I love life I get up in the morning and I am that nightmare wife and mother who sings musical theatre songs and says, yay, it's another day. And I do feel that.

But hearing that, it feels like some, that he wants us all to be like that, that we all should celebrate being alive. I mean, now, I mean, you know, you lost somebody through COVID only, only very recently. And we all know people who have died through these awful months and from other things as well. So I know it's not just coronavirus. and we've all lost people close to us and people have gone through losing jobs and which can be like a death absolutely to people but there is and sometimes people say to me you know shut up you know you have no idea what my life is like right but i still think that we can hold on to joy and gratitude and i'm not saying everything's all lovely and beautiful and wonderful in the world i'm not

naive, but if we could hold on to the joy of life. And I get that from you when I sit with you, when you've been to our house, when I've sat with you in restaurants when we've been to doos together, where we both so embarrassed going to that day. Right. You enjoy being alive. Sure, but that does take work. Yeah, those do's do's do.

Yes, those dos do. Well, no, finding delight sometimes. And, you know, like you say, a lot of people listening, some of whom are in pain, and you are always so articulate and mindful, not just to throat clear, you mean it when you talk about your privilege, you know. So, you know, when I've listened and heard you in the past, you know, you'll say, oh, the sun's out. And of course it's wonderful. Then you'll say, but I've got a garden. And so, you know, in the same breath, you're conscious that the way you're able to hold on to those happy. things and be singing songs and stuff is because in part you've got this privileged infrastructure

of stuff around you which helps. It's not the complete thing, but it helps. I mean, both of us will know people with plenty disproportionate amounts of everything that are still utterly miserable. And if they'd been at the last supper had, you know, asked for chips or, you know, had watched Jesus crossing the water and gone, is that all you can do? You should watch Britain's got talent or something. Do you not me? No, no, it doesn't matter. Yes, I do. We know those people.

So privilege and all of that stuff, things, things, things are not the answer. But that being said, Gabby, I have to tell you no, and I've not discussed it really, but in any great detail. But, you know, I, from time to time experience depression, which is different from sadness. And, you know, for me it comes in different forms, but it's rare. But when it comes, anybody that's read a Churchill biography, there you are, I've just compared myself to Churchill. God, he'll be doing somersaults in his grave. But I have this experience of the black dog coming in, and it's really hard to describe for anybody that hasn't had the misfortune of being there.

But it's sort of like somehow being plugged into this abyss of pointlessness and despair. It's, I'm sure, partially chemical. And you never know when it's going to come. It could even come on a day when the sun is out. and when things are going perfectly well in your life. But in the summer, that came and it happened to coincide with that sort of weird interland between a lockdown ending and then it lifting again. And then me kind of feeling, I don't know, just like I was losing the things that made me happy,

the things that I was clinging on to. You know, be that being able to go to work or see or delight in friends, etc. if you like the sort of infrastructure, the scaffolding that you can sort of sit on, which gives you things to look forward to. And that all coincide and coalesced at the same time. And I thought, well, the answer to it was to go to the Lake District and do some walking. And I don't get me wrong, I love the Lake District, but it rained every day and it made me a lot worse. But then I had this fantastic, I mean, again, more privileged therapy with an amazing,

person called Owen OK, who's written a number of books, one called 10 to Zen. And what he helped me do is exactly as you're sort of describing is to kind of find some time where I know this is coming on in the morning and going, right, sometimes you have to be really conscious about it. Okay, okay, what's my intention for the day? I feel this coming on. What can I delight in? And it sort of comes back to the polyana thing. It's not a glad game thing. and it's never comparing myself to other people. It's never, well, it could be worse, you could be so-and-so, or you could be in this country. Yes, yes.

Or you could be having this experience. Right, because of course, that's true. But what are my five things? It could be something really small. You know what I mean? It could be the lovely coffee that I'm having. It could be the book that I'm excited for. It could be that I'm going to speak to you today.

Do you know what I mean? But my tension for the day is to delight insubriced. far as possible in those in those five things and it it really has helped reframed the way in which I invest my emotional capital for the day and and it really did help me so that's good I'm it's amazing that you you talk about the black dog because I mean I know that of you because we've spoken about it and and you've always felt that you didn't want people to know but you've but to actually talk about it and a lot of people in this podcast talk about mental health in the broadest sense.

I mean, Robbie Williams very openly about it, and I've known Rob for 30 years, and he spoke about that. And also levels of it with sort of shyness and embarrassment or whatever it is, but everybody's issues. And it does help other people. And there are a lot of people out there who are fearful and they're scared,

and they don't want anybody to see any of those things as a weakness. But actually, it's a strength. To be able to say all of that is really empowering and really strong. Right. You can't be a complete person unless you acknowledge your vulnerability. It's as simple as that.

In fact, the longer you go on, you want to talk about monsterness, you know, those who exclaimed to the world that they don't have vulnerability, you have to ask yourself for challenging questions, well, why don't you? If you weren't thinking

or feeling these things, a sense of vulnerability, a sense of depression, sadness. I use that word different from depression. So a sense of sadness, a sense of being found out. All of the dark things. If you weren't fit, you know, imagine what person you'd be. Those are the constituent ingredients that make you.

But people poo-poo it, though. People poo-poo it. Because whenever I, and we talk about this a lot. Pew. No, but people do, because whenever I talk about shyness, people laugh. They're going, ha, ha, ha, ha. You can't be shy. You do television in front of millions of people. Don't be ridiculous. And now I very openly talk about it all the time because there are lots of people out there who then contact me and

say, oh, oh, so it's all right. Okay, I am shy. And I didn't realize that shyness was a problem. And yes, oh, here we go. I will be okay. And there are people who poo poo it. So there are, you know, you say you have black dog or depression or sadness or whatever. And I don't mean you. I mean others, you and others, that people will then say, oh, for God's sake, here we go, you shy, you're depressed, you're there. But actually, that person who's poo-pooing it must have some of those things that they're pushing away from themselves. Course love.

The loudest people in the world of other people's vulnerabilities are those who experience it themselves. You know, it's always the word, you know, the first person, we know this from good experience, those who invest all of their intellectual capital, as they did years ago, for example, in, you know, campaigns, homophobic political campaigns, were the first to have been found shagging the rent boys. Yes, yes.

And of course, but why is that? And we need to stop and take stock of why that is. It's because of their shame around it. I hear that. I feel sorry for somebody. that could look at somebody's mental illness or vulnerability and go, oh, enough already. And my response genuinely, when I see people acting or behaving in that way,

is to want to give them a great big old hug and say, come on. Yes, yes. And the answer is because, but we have to name why that is. And it's because of, and I'm going to use this word deliberately, the malignant force of shame, which if you like is the energy, it's the fuel. that keeps us from talking about it, from getting all of us better. You know, to be vulnerable is somehow shameful, even now in the conversation. To feel inadequate, to feel that you might be different, to feel shy.

You know, all of those words, all of those things are cloaked because society tells us they are in these elements of shame. Sometimes because society says those are shameful things and sometimes, because that's a story you tell yourself about yourself. I shouldn't be shy. I should be more this way or that way. I shouldn't feel like I don't deserve to be long here. But you do. And all of that is because of our sense of shame

rather than I was going, well, God, I feel like that. Isn't that interesting? One of the things that you and I are very different of. The idea of me doing strictly makes my bottom clench to the extent that if somebody said I had to do it, I would actually, I would have to go to the loo live. I mean, it just, in there, in then, with the long dress on. I'm not going to get too graphic.

But you loved it, didn't you? Will you look like you did? No, I just sort of the thought of you going, oh, last minute, trying to, you know, detrust yourself and go for a quick one in the loo. I mean, that's just, and also, I don't know, Gabbyron, but you have to understand, you exist in my mental roller deck,

very similarly to the royal family, but like Princess Margaret, without... No, no! Without the gins and tonics, I just can't imagine you and the loo in the same sentence. I don't think you've ever gone to the loo.

I do, but it obviously smells sweet, of course. No, quite. But strictly, but strictly, I know you did it for your, to make your grandmother proud, which was fabulous. But you just, that smile, I mean, you've got that magical smile.

But, come on, you loved it. Yeah, look, I don't be, you know, look, I don't do disingenuous. The only time, In fact, it's a Strictly story. Nobody ever conscripts me to say something I don't think or believe. And I'm privileged in that regard because, you know, I came on tell you when I was a fully formed grown up.

But the only time I've ever said anything I didn't believe at the time, although my mind changed was on the first day of Strictly and all these lights and glitter. And I thought, I was so discombobulated. I thought, what's going on? I found myself looking down the barrel end of the camera going, uh, uh, uh, my whole life, just repeating people. My whole life, all I've ever wanted to do is to get to black.

pool. And I thought, what? I can't believe that just came out of my god. What? I mean, who says that? As it turns out, I did in the end. But what I never thought, and I might love my whole life

ever know how to get to Blackpool. You know. But the point of it was that there were two others. Look, don't get me wrong. I have had this gift of Be you. surrounded by great older people. And some of my mentors, perhaps one of my most important

ones, a very senior deputy high court judge at the bar who used to tell me, Robert, so that's more important what you think of other people than what they think of you. And I suppose because of years of cases of knowing what it's like when people have any residual energy to go on Twitter or social media or when I used to do these sorts of cases, just publish nasty and wicked things. These were not happy. humans, you know, these were people that would sit up all night wearing moo-moos and chain smoking parliaments and these are not people's lives who you would aspire to or in any way want. And so I never worried about people who would say those sorts of things. But the thing

about strictly is two things. Firstly, it's one of the few things every year where genuinely the public doesn't want you to fall on your tuchess, your ass. People want you to do well. It's got that narrative. It's like some lovely show. Yes. You sort of feel it when you go out, they're like really pleased when you're doing well. Now, I must emphasise it's a gendered experience was the conversation for perhaps another time. But as a man, I must emphasise I had an experience where I was allowed just to delight in it.

But the other thing was, you know, I used to think to myself, no one bloody died. I mean, there was a moment when I was standing outside, about to go on, wearing, I mean, you know, not exactly the most appropriate thing in the world. I looked like I'd been mugged by a von Trapp. I was wearing Lidozen.

About to go and do a, what's it called? A Viennese waltz. Didn't go terribly well, put it that way. But before I went out wearing, it's like, Boris Becker walked past Gatam. And he goes, oh, I was wearing that's the other day. And I'm standing there going, oh, my lord, three years ago, I was in the Hague applying for an extradition warrant.

And now I'm wearing Leuzen, about to go into a Viennese waltz. No one died. Isn't this great? You know, that being said, I was super nervous every week. But that was just about, you know, getting it wrong, I suppose. And the other thing is, I suppose, because, again, I'd come from, not from a broadcasting background. And so, you know, all of these just... journalists and people get, oh, you must be working so hard. And I'm going, mm-hmm, you must be

working so. I thought, well, you know, I was sitting in court at the time. But, you know, my, my girlfriend's especially, my brilliant barrister friends, you know, I was thinking one of them in particular, he's got sort of three children and her briefs covered in red ribbons as the briefs are, you know, covered in baby sick. As she was off some morning, having been up all night, trying to work out how to deal with some very difficult application she was making on behalf of perhaps a Syrian refugee applicant in front of some snagletooth Wickhamist judge. And the idea of me phoning her and going, how's your day as she sort of walking to court half in a coma going, well, I can't get this chacha right? And her going, well, you must be working so. Yes, I'm working so hard.

It was turned out so different to how you imagined it. I know you were writing, you wanted to bring back Crown Court and then this all happened and suddenly Judge Rinder, although that was who you were before, but the show started and then you do strictly and then you do baking and then you do rowing and hiking. Isn't it great? Isn't it wonderful? You never imagined this, did you? No, it's blooming brilliant.

But there's a flip side. there's a flip side, which is that, you know, I'm really glad you bring it up, Gabby, because I didn't apply to be on telly. The long and short of it was it was a series of genuinely random events. You know, in fact, at the time, I was appointed to go and advise the Attorney General. That's the owl name, but there's a sort of francophile name of Jersey. They were in the middle of a big review, an inquiry into historical child abuse. And generally, speaking, they were concerned that the government should hand over all of the relevant material. So they wanted to appoint a sort of independent person to make sure that happened. And that was

meeting, seriously thing. The next thing, I'd had one meeting with this person on telly. And because everybody in telly talks bollocks. You know, it's not like law where there's an answer. You'd go to tele meetings. And, you know, two things are going on. You know, all this sort of face time. The first one is people want to inculcate themselves in the glory in the event that things go wrong and secondly politically maneuver themselves to divest themselves of any responsibility in the event that things are a disaster that's what happens in telemeetings they just have meetings they just have meetings you make it funny what do you need a meeting for what's the answer don't want to come to a meeting you have a meeting have a meeting anyway sorry and so I didn't believe a word any

of these people in telly said and I flew from Jersey the next thing my, I arrived at court and it was with my name on it. And genuinely, I hadn't given it any consideration because I didn't believe what anyone was saying. The next thing there was Judge Rinder, the next thing it rained when it went out in the death slot in August, the next thing my life was irrevocably changed. In other words, life can turn on a dime

as we've all come collectively to discover in the last seven or eight months. and it can go good or bad. Yes, but also, you've got to look back on your life and the most, I think the title, the title of your autobiography, of your next book, it has to be, I'd always wanted to go to Blackpool.

My whole life. My whole life. That's where it's been leading. Just been leading, yeah. Did you enjoy Blackpool? Oh, it was absolutely fantastic. That is the best party. I can't.

I mean, it was, I felt like I was, I felt like I was having some sort of species of post-operative dream. You know when people say they'd come out of operations and they were hallucinating? That's what it was like. It was, first of all, because dancing in Blackpool Tower was everything I hoped for a more. It was just great. there was one sort of ropey moment where I had to fly in on this wooden chair and I came down into this sort of swirl.

I'm not sure what you'd call the collective noun of women sort of waving their legs at you. In my, I suppose I'd call it a malice. I'd it that way. And I landed into it. You know, that was a bit frightening. But then the party, they close off this hotel we were in back in the days you could have parties. And my goodness, I mean, there was one moment. where Rick Astley was leading a conger line singing his own song.

I mean, Heaven. Life made. Oh, heaven. But I must emphasize this, and this has been part a little bit about what I was talking about the summer. One of the things I've been reflecting on is that I have an affection for what happened in the past. And it's very much like, I suppose, an author's view. of how they've considered the delightful moments

in their personal history. And one of the things actually I'm really rubbish at and I'm working on getting better at is not sort of, I say being in the moment, that's a really difficult term. And it's often, you know, delivered with people that want to put a gong over your face or something. But I'm really rubbish at that.

And I regret insofar as I have regrets, forgetting to remember, take in what's happening and to remember, this is great. And that often happens in experiences like that party, for example, although I had a great time there, but certainly, for example, on things like holidays or where I'm walking or whatever, that something really magical can happen like I'm not connected to it. And I'm trying to get better at that. Well, speaking of something magical that happens, congratulations on your MBE.

Oh, to you and your mummy, that must have been an amazing envelope to open. Yeah, I mean, it's an email now. And I have to tell you, when I was walking along and got an email from the cabinet office, I thought I'd done something horribly wrong in my last job. Oh, God, not them again. I genuinely used to receive kind of government emails, usually from government lawyers, going, Oh, Robert. So it was nice.

but also to be honest with you love i feel um like a complete imposter why well because i don't i mean i do anyway all the people i trust walk quietly along the world even loudly along the world even with jazz hands along the world but they're never far away from the sense that they're going to get found out i think that's the sort of critical protection between you and being a monster really that sense of enduring doubt But anyway, so I mean, you know, there's a kind of sense of, well, why me? But I think it's made slightly not just richer, but more okay, because I grabbed onto my mum's coattails, you know, and that she was honoured, you know, I'm not saying this in some sort of feign of humility.

It's the real deal. You know, she has invested way over a decade in making the 45 aid society's amazing charity that kind of is the family. in effect of the 732 boy and girl refugees that came here after the war and it's become a global family and a really amazing database and community for Holocaust education and she's sort of really really grown that invested all of her time you know spirit intellectual and cultural energy in making it a real presence and a kind of agent for change um so she really did deserve it and I sort of, I suppose all I've done is hold the torch and sort of shine the light on it.

So it's been a real lovely thing. And, you know, it's one of those kind of, I suppose, honours, which is not just about the honour, but the kind of publicity that it can bring for Holocaust education and what it can teach beyond just the sort of traditional borders of what people may think that Holocaust education is about. So it's been great. Well, Martha Tuff on it. But also, you know, we all. feel that we know your mother so well now after that extraordinary documentary. You know, it has left such a lasting impression on so many people, on anybody from any background,

any religion, people who don't believe, whatever it is. It was a deeply profound documentary. Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, that means a lot to me. I mean, you know, again, there's a sort sense of embarrassment, partly because, you know, I was part of a team that made that. I mean, you work in tele and in the media, and you have done for decades. And so one of the things you know is perhaps, and, you know, talk about somebody that embraces their humility. You know the kind of limited role to some extent that you play within a broader creative community. And I suppose what makes me feel a little bit uneasy with your compliments is that, you know, I'm part of team that really thought and invested so much into making it something that had broader resonance

and relatability. They worked so hard. And I often feel, I think I've said to you, you know, I'm going to use the football analogy. I mean, it obviously will have to camp it up. But I imagine myself sort of standing in the goal line like Princess Margaret with a cigarette holder whilst everyone else does the work and the ball comes right to the edge and I push it over. And it wasn't that marvelous and everybody like you comes like oh i loved your documentation thanks very much love you know when a lot of it is you know showing up and being authentic and you know um that's not work okay so i'm saying congratulations and thank you for the authenticity then but also also uh you're the all singing or dancing west end wendy now yeah well there's a whole other story there love let's not go mad

I was so heavily drunk I mean doing that I have to tell you I've got pictures of me taking a hip flask before and during and after but it's a right laugh though I think you know

if you're gifted the chance to do stuff I can't bear the expression your comfort zone although I suppose it's sort of as good as shorthand as any but a better way of describing it is if you're you know

forced along to the buffet of life and you're given a chance to pick at something that you probably wouldn't choose. Grab it with both hands and guzzle it down, it seems to me. And I thought, well, why not? This is a bucket list thing. Let's have a laugh.

And I didn't need to wear drag. And I got to sing I am what I am wearing a pride tie in a, what was it? It was a tartan three-piece suit. I mean, what conceivable universe would I not deliberately wake up in that paragraph and go, yes? Do you know what? I really blessed the day that we met at, behind the scenes of a TV awards. I had a fan girl.

Don't like lie about it. I had a... No, but I turned to you and I started talking to you and said, I've always wanted to meet you. I just think you're a joy. And then you got all embarrassed and held my hand, and I got all embarrassed, and we got embarrassed together. And then since then, you are a very big part of our lives, as I said.

And to be able to chat like this to you and people to see that, joyful side of you and that you are, no wonder Susanna Reid wants to go on holiday and spare and get lost for four days a year with you, because you're a joy to be lost in the world with. I just love you. So Robert Render, thank you. Oh, no, thank you. Sorry, I talked over your end. No, thank you. And, you know, I often say this about whenever I've spoken to you, you're like sort of either a cool mint for my brain or prozac in woman form. There's just something, it's a strange thing.

I know that, like I say, I think some people sit uncomfortably with the idea of energy and that stuff. You don't need to worry about even using that language. But just as I describe, you know, that small, unique, some... I say actually, it's not unique, very small category of people

that have the capacity negatively to determine the space they're in. There's also a small group of magical people that have the capacity positively to change the space they're in. And honestly, and I know I'm not the only person that says about you, when you leave you, it doesn't matter. We could have been talking about something as banal as I don't know, the internet or mortgages.

And you just leave that encounter with a little bit of spring in your step. So it's me that has to thank you, actually, yeah. You always do it every time. You know you make me cry. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. for listening to this episode of the podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Next week is the stunning actress

Olivia Williams. That Gabby Rossin podcast is proudly produced by Cameo Productions. Music by Beth McCari. Could you please tap the follow or subscribe button? And thank you so much for your reviews. I promise that the team and I have read them all and we really are rather overwhelmed and they really mean the world to us. So thank you so much. If you kindly leave a review or a comment, that would be a lovely thank you