That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Martin Kemp and Shirlie Holliman

Episode Date: January 23, 2024

Martin Kemp and Shirlie Holliman join Gaby for a bit of Mr and Mrs! They talk about what brings them joy, their kids, their work and have a giggle over being sexagenarians (it's a thing, you'll see...)Martin talks about the day he met Ronnie Kray, surviving his brain tumour and his new novel. It's packed full of stories this one! We hope you enjoy... Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Martin and Shirley, Mr and Mrs. Do you remember that show? Mr. Yes, we did that one soon. We did. We did, right? I'm sure we did, a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, we did.

And you know what? The longer you've been together, the harder it is. Yeah. Because you change your mind over decades and years. So what did they ask you? Well, yeah, random things, you know, absolutely random. You know what Mr and Mrs is like, you know, that show. I think we've failed over a leather jacket that you're wearing a leather jacket.

I don't know, but Shirley's right, you change your mind over decades, you know, about several times. But if you've only been married about a year, then you've only liked one thing. You're so keen to know everything and also to get it all right. Yeah, yeah. You say all the right things. Yeah. So I wasn't, I didn't know you've been on Mr and Mrs. I just when I said it.

I did love that show. So did I. And we were little. Seventies, wasn't it? Do you wear the slippers? Does your wife wear the slippers? Or do you both share them? Do you not wear any slippers?

Where are you two on the slipper from then? No slippers. We don't have slippers. Do we really? No. No, don't you really use them? Oh, okay. Well, we know that of you.

I also learnt just before we turn the mics on that you both got tinnitus. Yeah, well, it's not surprising. Well, because music. Both being in bands in the 80s and clubbing in the 80s. And it was, well, I used to go and see punk bands all the time, same as Martin did, but always up the front by the speakers. Yeah, but mine comes from, I only have it in my left ear, and that's from where I used to play my guitar.

My left ear used to be pointing at my amplifiers. So we were a young band, and it was never turned something down to make it sound good. It was, turn it up. If you got number 11 on it, turn it up to number 11. And the louder you were, the more rock and roll it was, or so, you know, you believe when you're young. And you paid a price when you're older. So is it constant then? You both have it all the time.

When I first had it, it actually drove me mad, and I didn't think I could live with it. I got it after I think I had Roman. So he's about 30 years ago. But also they said that when, after you've had a baby, you shouldn't do long haul flights. And we were living in America then.

And I was doing these long haul flights. So whether that did affect it, there was some connection between having a baby and, but it's all the hairs. That's what's weird. It's the hairs you've damaged in the ear canal. So could you, What, do you just hear a ringing sound all the time?

No, I hear a generator. I live with a generator. Oh, wow. I have really good. You do get used to it, but by doing meditation, like with headphones on, can really help. Oh, how well. It's her generator that's feeding my high-pitched whistle. So you've got the high-pitched one.

But I only ever notice it if someone talks about it. I know. Now I can't hear a thing. We won't mention a thing. You mentioned punk and my husband loves punk and reggae. And when I told him, because a couple of weeks ago when I was chatting to you as well about your book, which we're going to get onto, of course, and he said, oh no, they're both ex-punks. I went, no, Spando.

I liked Spando and I didn't like punk. And I had the shirt and I, no, I wasn't punk. And he went, no, their roots are in punk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is true. Well, actually, it goes back to, it's not really roots are in punk. its roots are in pop culture. And I think my pop culture

pop culture started in soul music going down to the Lyceum, just up the road from here, Sharsby Avenue. And then it kind of developed into punk and then onwards into new romantics. But, you know, I've always loved the idea when I was a kid.

I loved the idea of shocking my mum and dad. Whatever I wanted to listen to was completely against the reverse of listening to their Frankton Archer. So soul music was my first thing, where you were wearing those plastic sandals and those Smiths jeans and Mohair jumpers. And then going on to punk where it was complete rebellion of no future. Everything was dark and leather and chains. And then complete reverse, which was, I think, the last of the great pop cultures, which was New Romantics, which was everybody for themselves.

Wear what you want. Just be positive, be bright, be ambitious. And so I think my roots are in pop culture. Okay, I love that. And you Shirley, though, you just said that it was from going to punk gigs when you were younger. Yeah. But then to me, you were pop, proper, proper pop. That was kind of by my friends.

So, yeah, punk to me, I just loved the fashion. I couldn't, different to, I never shot my parents. My mum were nice to come down with green hair, pink hair, she'd go, oh, I love that. I love that. She always encouraged me. And she always used to say, if you go against your children when they're learning who they are, they'll make mistakes when they're older.

So she was always so encouraging, whereas my best friend's parents absolutely hated it, and she had to come to my house to get all soap in her hair, to make a hair type. Oh, really? But I loved going to see all the live bands. It's amazing. But I was only 15, 14, I think, at the time.

And punk was so important to music. So important. You know, before, when I wanted to be in a band when I was, I don't know, dreamt of it when I was 14, 15, you had to be out of play like Pink Floyd. You had to be able to play, it was progressive rock.

You had to be incredible. You had to be Emerson, Lake and Palmer. You had to be of that standard. But all of a sudden, punk came along and made it possible for kids who could not play guitar like myself to dream that they could be in the Rolling Stones or to be in the Who.

And you just learnt three chords and you were up and running. And so I had my first band, which was called The Defects, and none of us could play more than three chords at school. But that was my grounding, and that's where I am today. And you're, but for both of your music is so important, I imagine. Is it still as important to you both? Not for me. You're such a big part of our growing up.

Yeah, but I find it really hard to find music. Like in my day, you'd go to the record. shop. You'd watch Top of the Pops. That would be your main kind of input. I'm lucky because my dad had a huge record collection. He loved music. And I had older brothers and sisters. So I had Bowie, stylistics,

everything in music going on in my house. But what I find hard now, I don't know where you go to find the music. You're sounding like a grandma. Yes. There's all the streamers.

Like where my influence, who's influencing me? That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people say the same thing. It used to target me immediately, the fashion, the music. Whereas I don't know where it is now. So I'm a bit lost with music. Well, look, what it was, right? Back in our day, you would save up all months to buy your album.

And that album was super special. You learned every song on it. You knew every word because it was written on the cover. You did. And it was your thing. It was your flag. That's who you loved. You know, that was your...

You try to find people, like-minded people, that also like that band with that album. But nowadays, it's so much more eclectic. You know, you can go online and you can pick one track from any one album and you put those things together. So in one way, music for young kids is a lot better because they get to listen to a lot more, a lot more diverse things.

So they get better influences for old, you know, they listen to classical sometimes and jazz, bits and pieces because it doesn't cost them that much. They don't have to buy that album. But in our day, it was one album, one band, and that's who you loved. I think we had it better because we connected with each other more. It's like we would dress and you were saying, oh, she liked that band because they dressed like that. And that was a really good connection for people.

But you didn't know. Yeah. Yeah, we're going back to what you said about. My daughter always said to me, oh, Mom, I'm really envious that how you used to dress and you had the club night. She goes, my friends are just all kind of, no one cares what they wear or where they go. She goes, I love the fact that you had this place on a Thursday night, you would go there on a Friday night. And everyone who went there was in the same mindset and fashion sense. Oh my God, Gabby, we are sounding like Nanny and Grandad.

No, no, you're not. Because actually, there'll be a lot of people that are listening to this who will think exactly the same as you. But also, what I love, so my 16-year-old loves music. And as you just, her eclectic mix, you know, from all the influences from obviously me working in different, radio stations. She listens to a bit of stuff. She loves the 80s. Passionately love the 80s. Lots of the teenagers do.

She loves listening stuff from the 60s. She loves now, really, you know, anything from Billy Eilish to whoever. And I love that she loves that, but yet there's no tribe. No, there's no tribes anymore which I think is a bit of a shame.

But, you know, you say it's better now, Cheryl. It isn't better. It's just different. It's just different. Kids nowadays think it's better now. And that is how they live. And I think, listen, we all move forward.

Yeah. But it's funny that everyone listens to the old music. So the stuff that you were both involved with, so when I said to my 16-year-old, I was talking to you both, and then I was singing the song. She was... You were singing the songs?

How do you know those? Because those are the songs I sung as a teenager, and I knew every word to. She's like, Oh, suddenly. And I love that, you know, whatever, they're ageless. She can reference it immediately. And you're both involved in ageless music.

And I'll still start. The stuff that you both are involved with and the both that you were such a big part of all of our lives, they're still a big part of everybody's lives and they are ageless. Yeah. I mean, we're coming to Christmas and last Christmas as I've heard. I thought we'd get on to that. No, but I have to. We have to.

I know now. It's expect it every year that everyone from a toddler will know that song because it's there. It always comes on every year. How does that make you? I never wrote a Christmas song, much. I said Bandol never wrote a Christmas song. Yeah, but we wrote through barricades, true.

You know, I'm going to take something to you back there. So I'm the straightest girl, the straightest, straightest girl. And I'd only ever seen, I think, I'd seen something like, I can't even remember, I just nothing. I loved really very, I like pop, and I loved Spandau, loved all of that new romantics, and I used to watch it on telly. And the very first live gig that was sort of a bit rebellious,

I went to see Spandau. Before anybody knew who Spandau were. There was a friend of mine at school, it was Camden or somewhere, and we went, and it was quite a few people. So I went straight, I went, I have to have one of those shirts. I have to in front of those shirts. But it was, it's that it, it spoke to a little.

a lot of, and also all those stuff with you and George as well. It was such a big part of our lives. And it's not me being nostalgic. And because you say, every toddler knows your songs. Every toddler knows your songs. For both of you, it must fill you with such pride, both of you. It's a very weird thing that I get out of it now. If I look at myself on television being that young kid in Spandau,

about playing those songs, True and those early ones. If I hear it on the radio, it sounds like somebody else. When I watch it on television, it feels like somebody else on television. It doesn't feel like it's part of me anymore. It feels really strange.

I always have this thing where I think, I read once that it takes you seven years to replace every single cell in your body, right? You're a different person completely. I am about seven times. removed from that young kid that was in Spandale Valley. But I love

it, but what I think it's done is it's time has kind of put me in the same place that I appreciate the songs and the band and that era in the same way that other people do. That I'm not directly in it anymore. So you're not, there's none of the angst which everybody knows what, which I'm not going to talk about

to do with the band. It's been said, let's not go there. But, so has that gone in a way? Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Absolutely. I wouldn't like it if it was still there. If I was still sitting here today thinking, why isn't the band together? I would hate myself for that.

I like the idea that that was part of my life. You've moved on for that. And I've moved on from it. But what I got out of it was so incredible. I mean, what an incredible way to grow up. You know, I was assigned the first record contract when I was 18 years old on my 18th birthday. And by the time I was 18 and a half, I was flying around Europe on Lea Jets. and celebrating.

18. That's so young though, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Now of the age that we all are, 18 is so young to be doing that. Yeah, but how exciting. But it was a wonderful, wonderful way to grow up. But that's what it was for me. And I love the idea that I look at it as somebody else now.

I love that. But what you're lucky with Spanda is you could all get back together tomorrow. But for you, obviously, gorgeous George, lovely George. I mean, he was, I know, your best, best friends with him. And I knew him on the periphery very, he was the naughtiest person I ever met and used to make me love a lot.

And I just absolutely adored him, but he was your best best. And, but again, his songs, his, his, he's still around. He's there. I can walk into shops, you know, or shopping malls and he's playing everywhere and I always take it as a sign.

And I know that his music was his children. that was his love. And that's all he wanted. That's all he wanted for the music to stay around. Such a shock to all of us. I can't imagine, and I don't want to imagine, but I hope that he knew how much. Did he know how much he was loved?

I think so. I think he did, yeah. I think he did. Yeah. Good. Yeah. He did, yeah. He did, but, you know, in the last,

couple of years it was hard for him to take in any of that. It didn't matter how many people loved him. He was in his own space that he found difficult. He did find life difficult, didn't he? Well, I watched the Robbie Williams documentary the other night. How good. And what it is when you're in the situation where you've put your work on the line. And it is, for George, it was his children and I know how I feel about my children. Yeah. Yeah. If anyone's criticises it. So anyone criticises you because of your work. it's so painful to that person. And that's, and, you know, I know how much that used to hurt George.

And, you know, any criticism we used to get and felt like, oh, why is everyone so negative about certain things? And it really was apparent when I watched the Robbie Williams document. It was like, no matter how many thousands of people he was playing in front of, a headline that was negative, would crush them. And that's because those people with talent are really sensitive as well. So, yeah, I think it's a hard place to be. Yeah, and George would argue until he was blue in the face. I mean, even if he knew he was wrong, he would argue. And there were times like when he would come over for dinner.

And everyone would have left the table apart from George at one end, a Roman, who was probably about 11 years old at a time, who he also can't put an argument down. And the two of them would just go at each other. And I mean... But how wonderful. How lovely. It's a lovely memory. So let's go to now

Actually you just mentioned Roman So we have to talk about the kids Let's let's talk about the kids You must be Unbelievably proud of your boy And well and your daughter as well Both of them You know what

It's not so much pride Harley moon It's not so much pride with me It's like this huge relief And a big smile in my soul Because you're only as happy as your children are If my children are happy, I'm doubled over. So every day when my kids ring me and they say,

oh, I did this today, I did that today, that just feeds my soul. You know, it's not about what they're earning or it's like they rang me, they're happy. It's all good. It's okay. Yeah, it's all good. And that's as far as I go with it. It's a really nice way to put it as well.

But I think what it is is I'm not so proud of what they've achieved and what they're doing. it's more of the people they've become and the adults they're turning into and that's what you do I mean as a parent I think your job in life is to make them or give them a chance to do better than you

you don't want them to like you don't want to feel like oh yeah they're doing better than me why is that I want them to do that that's why that's all the information you give them through life when you bring them up is for them to do better than you you know that's that's the whole idea I get that. I completely understand.

So when, with Roman, with, obviously on the radio every day and the one show and his documentaries, the second one out, and the stuff that you do together, TV that you do together. And Harley Moon is, is it, Paris? She was, no, Harley, she was working. She's directing. Yeah. She was directing.

I mean, it's great. She was bringing up. She was going, Mom, I'm directing. I'm in Paris. I was out there for 10 days. She was just living. I mean she is the most positive person I've ever met.

She doesn't suffer. She doesn't go down. She just stays up there. It's her name, you see? Yeah. So I love it when she comes home because she just gets me like dancing, singing, laughing. So, but yeah, she's a

workaholic though. That's the downside to both my kids. They both love it. So much that when I call, sorry, mum, can't talk working. Sorry, just on set, mum. I'm like, okay, ring me later. But they do ring back. I've used that one a few times as well.

I'm like, I have a day off. Surely. Yeah. Oh, that's a tricky one. He's a tricky one. No, no, they do. No, it's opposite, Gabby. He rings me about four times a day.

Oh, that's lovely. How long have you two been together? Well, I met Martin when I was 20. 1982. 41 years. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I just found out we're sexatarians now. Sexeterians? When you're in your 60s, it's sexogeno, sexitarian or something? No, that sounds a bit dodgy. I know it does. I thought that can't be right.

I have to look you up. Something like sexogenes. Can someone help me out? What's it called when you're in the 60s? No one's helping you out. We're leaving you back. Yeah, we're leaving you. We're leaving you there.

Can someone Google something quickly? When you're in your 60s, you're called sex. Sexer. Sexitarian. Just leave it. I'm going to leave it. You're thinking of a big hole. There we go.

You're just sex. Yeah. Anyway, they've been to get the 41 years. I just want to take you all the way back, though, Martin, because very sadly the news came out about Anna Sher. And she was such a massive part of your life. And so many of the EastEnders stars, we will get to EastEnders, of course, as well.

But so many people that I know who went through Anna Sher's doors. And that's where it all really started for you. Yeah, I mean, I was the shyest little boy you can ever imagine. You know, shy to the point of it was an illness. And my mum and Anna Sher opened up a club, drama club, across the road from me in Bentham Court in Islington. And my mum put me there two nights a week,

Tempea lesson. Ten peer lesson. Ten per lesson. That's amazing. To get rid of my shyness, not to become an actor or anything like that, but to kind of help my personality along, really. And I ended up joining her

and doing all of those 1970s TV shows like Play for Today, comedy, playhouse, all of that stuff in the eight years I was there. And what I felt that Anna gave me was a personality. She gave me the good side of my personality. Oh, how amazing. Bad side came from Steve Strange. But we won't even go there.

Oh, we can go there. But she gave me that positive, that good side of my personality that I enjoy and as part of me today. But like you said, she was so important in the area that I came from, giving working class kids a dream, letting them understand what was possible, letting them understand what was out there that they could achieve. And how much, just how much fun life could be. You know, it didn't have to be the doldrums of Islington at that point. Because Islington, when I grew up, was a super poor area. It was still suffering from post-war, really. You know, Gary and I used to play on some of the bombsites that were left over from the war.

It hadn't been regenerated since then. And so, Anna's was a little oasis. And you can tell by the people that came out of it, like Phil Daniels, Pauline, Quirk, Linda Robson, myself and my brother, and the list goes on and on and on. She just had some magic touch. The magic touch that I think she had was that she never put you down. She would get you to do things. She never taught me anything, but she gave me confidence.

It didn't matter. What a gift. It didn't matter. When I stood in the middle of that room in front of like the other 20 kids and did a little, I don't know, put a hat on and made out I was someone else. All improvisation. It was kind of like playing in front of these kids, but she never once said to me,

that was good, but try it like this. She never, all she ever said was, that was brilliant. Get up and do it again. And I think that, that is the way that we brought Harley and Roman up, is just purely giving up constant confidence. That's so important. It's so important. Do you know, it's interesting.

The amount of people that come on this podcast, I talk very openly about shyness and I think more people should because I was absolutely crumbled with this team. I couldn't speak. I was going to ask you, were you the same? Absolutely. And I'm really envious that Martin had an assure. So what did you have?

How did you start then in the industry? Because George and Andrew needed someone. That was as simple as that. Yeah, we were just mates, but we went clubbing and dancing. But we used to rehearse the dance routines in George's bedroom. And so when the boys, it's already made the record, and got a record deal, I wasn't involved in it then. I'm just proud that my friends have, you know, signed a record contract.

But you're still this shy girl, though. I'm still a shy, yeah, really shy girl. And but there's something about when I get on stage, I don't feel shy. Yeah. There's some persona that takes, so there's something that happens when I'm on stage. I'm not the same person. But if you ask me to suddenly stand up in a restaurant and sing, I'd never do anything like that. I'd rather play a huge stadium

that feels like, yeah, this is right. Well, we always get more money. Yeah, get more money. But no, I'm not one of those people. Let me sing, you know, like, I met Liza Manelli once, and she is one of those women who would get up and sing anywhere. Like, her confidence is just beaming,

and she wants to entertain everyone. And I looked at them, I wish I had a bit of that, but no, I haven't got that. But you do, you entertain? You're an, that's what you are. Yeah. You both are. You're entertainers.

And I don't think that, I think that's a positive thing to be called. I know people are a bit, ooh, entertainer. But it's a positive thing that you bring joy in people's lives. You make you think. I love that side. Bringing joy, making people think. I love to be inspired. So to inspire others is the key reward.

Fabulous. Yeah, it's a beautiful place to find yourself is inside this bubble called entertainment. It's an absolutely wonderful, wonderful place to live, you know, where you can do presenting or directing or whatever we do as entertainers, you know, theatre. But it's an absolutely wonderful place to live. And I think that's why people like Michael Kane go on to 90 years old. Because you just don't want to give it up. I suppose then entertaining.

You mentioned presenting. We've talked about music. We haven't mentioned the acting. And we did with Anna, but obviously EastEnders. And when I was chatting to you recently, I didn't realize that that was, I'm going to use the word famous. I don't like the word famous. I don't like, I hate the word celebrity. That's the personal thing.

But you were the most famous that you had ever been when you were in EastEnders, Steve. Without a doubt. But that to me, it was like, sorry, you're spanned out. But EastEnders was 20 million every day, 20, 25 million. Yeah, 20 million an episode at that point, you know, when I was doing that whole. thing with Matthew, who was going to prison, was it him or me, you know, that everyone was talking about. It was an amazing place to be EastEnders, but it was made even more amazing for what came before, really, because I'd just come through that whole five-year period of doing the brain tumour stuff,

which was probably the darkest point of my life. You know, I wasn't even sure if we were going to get through that. You were so amazingly open about it all. Well, yeah, because when I was going through it and when I was suffering from those brain tumours, there was no one out there that was someone that I could look towards and say they came through it. There was no one.

So when it happened to me, I just wanted to tell people, listen. That's interesting. Here I am, you know, I've come through the other side of it. But it was, so he's then. was kind of like the first job that I had. So did it feel like a, I'm going to, it sounds really dramatic, a rebirth in a way? In a way it did, yeah, because,

because, but I wasn't even sure that I could take EastEnders on when it came to me. When I first did the audition, my brain was still working, had been beaten up properly. And like to the point where, literally, animation. If I wanted to walk left, I would walk right.

And if I wanted to walk forward, I walked back. I didn't even know that if I could, remember lines. So when he's... You mean the, because of the brain tissue? Yeah, yeah, because of the bruising. After surgery. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my brain was completely beaten up. And EastEnders, when it came along, the first audition, when I went into it, I couldn't even remember the lines because my brain wasn't working properly. And it was only, they saw something in me and said, come back and do a second audition. And I went back and I nailed the second audition.

and things started to move much more quickly and my recovery started to become much quicker and by the time I got onto the set I was I can't believe how my gratitude for getting that part was more than just oh yeah that's another job, land another job and move on it was because it actually kind of was the way that I found myself getting better

so it helped heal you as well absolutely that's interesting I mean you surely must of, that must have been the most terrifying thing. It was because Harley was about four and Roman was one. And Martin was always at the gym. And he had this lump on his head. And I kept saying that lump's getting bigger and bigger. But he didn't have any side effects.

So he wasn't bothered by this lump. And then... But it was really small. It wasn't like you could... Well, I thought it was a lump. But anyway, I managed to get him, kept saying, go to a doctor, go to doctor. Went to doctor.

And they said, just have an MRI. just to check. And I never forget the phone call when he said, I've just got the results. They said it's a brain tumour. And I remember standing there, I'd never heard of anyone having, I just thought the death sentence, brain tumour.

And then they said, but they said, I've got two. And it just, I remember looking at Harley and Row thinking, oh no, no, no, they have to have their dad. They have to have their dad. And on the Monday, I think that was on the Friday, on the Monday, we drove to see us. surgeon and then a few days later Martin's in intensive

care after having half of his skull taken away. I was beside myself. Like you said about you putting sort of that you look back and that's that part of your seven years and there's many seven years that have happened. So that

going through that it must feel like you're sort of talking about somebody else for both of you and then there we were going to Steve Owen. It was a massive character and that helped you heal. Yeah. Then, then you, I can't remember the timeline.

Then the craze, you went to meet the craze in prison, didn't you, as well? I mean, the most extraordinary. The craze were before the brain tumour. The craze were before, yes. When Harley was a baby, yeah. Yeah, yeah. The craze was 1990 at the end of band. Yeah, yeah.

At the end of van. And the craze was such an important movie for me because the craze was like, I knew, by 1989, I knew that Spand out, my whole life, right? Everything I knew was coming to an end. Right, right. And I needed a get-out clause. I needed an escape hatch out of Spandau

because I didn't know where to go. The last album, in fact, in about 1988, the last album, Gary didn't want to do it. Gary was absolutely adamant. I'm finished with Spoken about that, hasn't he? And it was only me. I was practically, I went for a walk with him on a beach in Bournemouth one time

where my mum and dad used to live. And I was practically begging him to do it. But not out of, I think not out of the fact I wanted to stay in Spandau, it's more of the fear of not knowing what was next.

What was next, yeah. Where I was going to go and what I was going to do. Little did you know what was going to be happening. And so when Spandau finished by 1990, just before then, the guys that used to make all of those super

expensive videos that we used to to make the bands used to make in 1980s, you know, all those Spandau videos. They bought the rights to a Craterwin movie and spoke to me and Gary about playing those parts. And they put a lot of trust in us. And that movie was one of those moments in life that changes your life. You've got, you're sorry, you've had a lot of those. Yeah, yeah, I've been quite lucky. I mean, you know, close to death in intensive care.

Yeah. The Cray movie off the back of Spandau. Actually, just that story, because it is amazing about you going to the prison and meeting. Yeah. You know, we did a lot of research into those parts. And there was a long time in between saying yes to the movie and the movie actually kicking off. So we had about a year and a half because, you know,

the government didn't want the movie made. They didn't want Ronnie and Reggie to become these icons for everyone. while they were still alive. So they tried to stop the movie. So it was about a year and a half. And we did all these research. We went out and we met the families and we met the old gang that were still alive

and talking to them. And then one day we get a chance to go into Broadmoor and meet Ronnie, which was the strangest thing that's ever happened. But it is strange going into any prison. You know, it's quite daunting. And you go through those big old doors and they let you in.

but Broadmo is slightly different because all the prisons sit around in their own clothes so it's the dining room that is opened up for you to go into. They try and make it a little bit more relaxed than normal prisons. And as Gary and I walk in, we can see Ronnie Cray stand up in the corner

and he calls us over. He's only a small man, but in his beautiful silk suit, you know, he's got his RK monogram on his shirt. How extraordinary in prison! Yeah. And he calls us over. calls us over. And Gary and I both go over. We're nervous as anything, right? You know, we're

sitting next to Ronnie Cray. And Ronnie, and I sit down and the weirdest thing happened, nobody told me, and they should have done, that Ronnie speaks with a really high voice. Now, that made me nearly laugh, right? I mean, I can't tell you. I'm sitting there with Ronnie Cray, how are he speaking like this? I'm thinking, what is? I wanted him to speak like Danny Dyer. You know, get down in his boots, you know. But he didn't, he spoke really high. And anyway, he said, boys, you can ask me anything you want. And so all of a sudden, the next thing I know, we are talking about murder.

We are talking about who he's going to, who he wanted to kill, who he should have killed how he should have got away of it, and who he's going to kill if he gets out. And I'm looking around thinking, this is the weirdest day of my life. Because about 10 foot away from me is the Yorkshire River. And I'm thinking, what made it even worse? What made it even... And what could make it worse than those people?

Well, I just come from Saturday morning superstore we spanned up high. And it was in complete contrast. Your life is extraordinary. It was extraordinary. Yeah, it was extraordinary. No, but as from an outsider who's interviewed you over the years so many times.

And each time I interview you, I sort of... What? It's... I mean, it really is extraordinary. I've had a lot of fun, I have to say. You've got it in the... Morticum. Morticum.

Morticum. I've had a lot of fun. I love the idea that you ring up. Hey, Cheryl, you never guess who I've just met. You never guess what's just happened. Oh, hi, Cheryl. I'm in intensive... It is extraordinary.

So now let's bring it up to date. The book. The game. Congratulations. It's you on those pages. Oh, thank you so much. Because that's the name, so our lead, our hero, that is the name that you used to check into hotels. Yeah, yeah. He was my pseudonym for a good 20 years, you know. All the time I was in Spandau and post that when I was acting in Los Angeles.

It's just kind of like, you know, all bands have pseudonyms so that the young kids don't find out what room you're saying in the hotel. But I used him, for that reason, I also used him on my bag tags, the laminates that would follow me around the world. So he was always with me, always. And it wasn't until I shot the cray twins that I had, I was starting to put the ideas together that Johnny Klein had life on his own. And so I wrote down a kind of like, or one-page synopsis about how it would be. That long ago? Yeah, how it would be like a good TV show or something. But it was very different to where it is now.

But so it was always with me and it was an idea that I kind of like put on the top shelf in my brain you know, that collected dust for a little while until I thought it was the way forward with Johnny Klein is to write a novel. It's to put him inside a thriller. It works so well but it reads as you speak. Shirley, did you read the book as he was writing

as Johnny Klein and the game came to life? Yeah, so I kind of live with Johnny Klein as well. Yes. So I've read a lot about Johnny Klein and I know him very well. So what I love when Martin writes, because I think you are, that's what he does best. You really are such a good writer. Yeah. You really are.

I was like, can you read this for me? I don't have, oh, I haven't got time. And then I sit down and then I'm drawn in. I'm like, what happens next? What happens next? He's got a great way of writing that keeps you there and you want to know what happens next. Page Turner's. Yeah, page turner.

Well, basically, Johnny Klein, the game is about a. A rock star who loses absolutely everything has nothing left. There's sold up lock, stock and barrow, including his gold records and his big house and everything. He's only got a pair of jeans and the t-shirt left. And he is a rock bottom. So a friend of his puts him up in the top floor in a block, in a building which is above an Indian restaurant called Grace Land. Basically an Elvis theme park. And he has to start again.

he has to start life. And he goes down in some of the dirtiest, deepest holes that you can ever imagine. And that's where the thriller comes out of. And you've met these people. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, all of the gang that I write about in the game is probably taken from my days in the cray twins,

meeting the crate win gang that were still alive at that point. And also, Britt Lane that he goes to is a big part of me. It was every Sunday my dad would have the day off. It would be his only day and he would take me and Gary on tours around London showing us different bits, the monument and Tower Bridge, brick lane. But brick lane for me always stood out because bagels. Yeah, the bagels, the smell and the colour that you never see the saris that used to be hanging around. And then onto the flower market and it was made such a big impression for me. I think it was about to smell more than anything else,

all the Indian restaurants. And, you know, at that point, my mum was only cooking meat and two veg, right? So it was, everything was exotic. And I thought that is the perfect place to write about, you know. But you bring it to life. I mean, it is, I've said to you before that it's a, to me, it's a love letter to London as well. It really is. I love the idea, though, that I hadn't thought of it that way.

Of course, Shirley, you've lived with Johnny Clark for all these years. The thing is, in life, you should learn by your. mistakes and what I think Johnny Klein doesn't learn by his mistakes. That's what I keep thinking. What if he does learn by his? You know, what if he does? What if it's got to have

happy ending. He's got to be mega rich now. Shirley always wanted me to bring him out and bring him out of the hole. And I always want to keep him in the hole. There's got to be more, Johnny Klein. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, I'm working on one at a moment. Good. And we're

and the TV show. That's always the dream. That's Every author's dream. I think it's got, it's so visual. It's got to be a TV show. Yeah, I think it's such a charismatic guy that it's one of those TV shows. People say, oh, have you seen Johnny Klein? You've got to watch it. Yeah, I mean, that's every author's dream to see it up on a screen somewhere,

whether it's a big screen or small screen. Will you play Johnny? I listen. I think he should. Of course. Keep him busy. Yeah. Yeah, we'll have to see.

Because he's just not busy enough. No. You two are just wonderful. And as I always say, after all these years of interviewing you, Martin, there is still that little girl in me that I had the posters on my wall. It's still, it's like, oh, my word. I remember interviewing you the very first time was on Motormouth on Saturday morning television. That's right, yeah.

And you came on and I remember looking and you kept saying, you all right. and Neil Buchanan kept looking at me and going, what's happened? I was like, live on television is never a good look. But both of you, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for the book. And when it comes out as the TV show, you'll come back with the cast. Of course. Perfect. Thank you very much. Thank you. Gabby, thank you so much for having us.