That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Matt Cardle

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Gaby welcomes singer/songwriter/actor Matt Cardle to the pod, to chat about all thing joy. Matt is currently in the musical 'Kinky Boots' in the West End - and loving it! He's also just about to release his new album...so he's a busy busy boy! They talk about his music, 'being famous', social media (both the highs and the lows), being too honest (is there such a thing!?) and working with your mates. Matt also reveals his 'Show n Tell' item - which makes Gaby smile (especially when she gets to have a go on it!) Remember you can watch all our episodes on our YouTube channel - follow and subscribe there, so you never miss an episode.

Matt Cardle, it is properly such a pleasure. Every single time I see you, we know each other away from studios, you just, I absolutely adore you. I think I'm a special soul. Absolutely mutual, Gabby. It really is. Thank you. And we've been trying to do this for how long.

I know. Because we bump into each other a lot. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, what was it, three years ago? Yeah. And then it was suddenly, right, and then I keep bumping into you all over the place. But you've got to try that gym, by the way. I will.

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. So now, I don't know where to start because there's so much and you're so open about everything. But I want to start with the celebration that is Kinky Boots. Yes. Another few weeks to go, only a few weeks ago. But this is so exciting. You're so happy.

I am. I'm shouting it. No. I'm so happy. I'm happy. I'm so happy. Yes, I am. You know, I'm so happy.

There's not long now. and I've been really sort of soaking up every minute of this. The first time I did a West End show, it was also overwhelming. And again, I was a bit younger then. Well, I was 32 at that point. So still, at 32, I think, you're in the mindset of, oh, this is just now, there's something else. But now I'm a bit older.

I don't know how many more shows I'll do. And that kind of thing. I know I'll do lots. But I'm just trying to really, and it's not often that you perform in the Coliseum in front of two and a half people in a show like this in the in the summer as well that's it's such a vibe i hate the word vibe but it's such a vibe being in the west end when it's sunny and and being around soho and i quite often get off the trainer um oxford circus and just walk through soho to to charing cross and it's it's

lovely so just being in that area and bumping into other people in shows and stuff it's it's just and being in the show with everyone that that is in the cast that they are absolutely incredible have you seen the show? No, I've seen the show, but I haven't seen yours, but I haven't seen yours, but I'm coming. Right, I'll get you tickets. So I might have, I might have been by the time this comes out. Yeah, but you and Johan, Johannes is just such a sweet soul and you're a sweet soul and I imagine the two of you together, you've both got such positive energy and you've both been through your staff and coming together to create such a happy show. Yeah, you know, I do feel at times, because we have such a

bond me and Jojo and it just I feel like the whole story is is the creation of the bond between Lola and Charlie and I think we maybe we haven't had any direction notes from it but I think we even we get it a bit too quick now because as soon as we meet on stage we're like you know what I mean which is lovely so the the connection and the bond is absolutely real and like you said please tell me he told you first about strictly oh yeah yeah yeah he did He wanted me to... The thing is, what I said to him, and I'd never considered doing it.

I don't know if I can or not. But I just said to my manager, I was like, wouldn't it be nice if I got to dance with Johannes? But, you know, he came into the West End world for a while and then I went into his world for a bit. But I don't know what's... I think he's probably a bit too tall for me to dance with.

But he's presenting it, so will he be dancing and presenting? Do you think he'll be doing both? Please say he'll be doing, still be dancing, something. I don't know. I think there, because, you know, I remembered speaking to him for the last three weeks about, you know, whether he was going to do or not. And to have that dangling

was, I'm sure, keeping him up at night. Oh, bless him. It's so exciting that he's doing it. I'm so proud of him. It's just a monumental opportunity. He's a good soul, but we're talking about you. So, there you are, doing kinky boots, which is so, I love

it as a show. I love it. It's such a positive show. show. It really is positive. And then the album as well. This is you. This is you laid bare. This is a big one this album. It really is. But strangely

I kind of and I want this to come across in the right way. It's not like I care less this time around or it's not like I've given up on anything. What I've actually done is gone back to the way that I felt when I started making music

in the first place, which was for me initially because it has to be if it's not for you then it won't be for anyone else because if you don't enjoy it then how is anyone else supposed to connect with it but the whole industry has changed you know with uh streaming in the charts and all that kind of stuff and i just i just cannot be bothered i got so you know staring down the barrel of this kind of campaign of trying to get in everyone's face and be really done in about you know where we're going to chart and how many sales it's i just don't give it can we swear on this yeah i don't give a shit I don't care.

You know, I don't care. I started making music because there was something that I wanted to get out that would make me understand me more and never had a thought of who's going to listen to it, who's going to buy it, how many people. Or the fame.

All that stuff. And, you know, so I'm just giving it to people by bit by bit now. I don't, which is, it feels so liberating for me to not be considering all of that because it doesn't really matter. At the end of it, oh, it's nice to, you know, noise off about charts and things like that.

But, you know, if people are listening to my music and they're coming to my shows and all the rest of it, that's all that's ever mattered to me. And I've, before the album's even out, that's the, I've gone right back to that mindset. And it feels good because then whatever happens is great because that was my initial tack with it. Whatever happens is great.

You know, I didn't force myself to be upset if it didn't get this or that one, the other. And it feels really good. And now that it's out there and it's people, know that side of you, know that that's how you feel. I mean, it must be very liberating. But also the reaction has been fantastic. It has.

And, you know, Gabby, I'm so proud of this album. Like, I really, really am. And, you know, I've written it with some incredible songwriters. You know, one of my best friends in the whole world, Neil Wilson, we've been writing a lot of this together. Another one of my best friends, Dan McDougal, has produced the album. And, I mean, he's an absolute magician with what he's done with these songs,

the way he's sort of curated this all and made it all made. sense and I promise to never darken his door again in the studio. It took way longer than it. Why are you a nightmare to work with? Can you imagine a large fly just behind you? Because I do a bit of production as well. I've produced, you know, the Purple Crown EP, I've produced that myself. So it's always been very difficult to completely hand off that stuff. I mean, Dan's one of these insanely talented multi-instrumentalist guys. He plays drums for Liam Gallagher. He's written songs for all sorts of people. He sings incredibly.

He plays guitar way better than I do. He plays bass way better than I do. He plays piano. It's like, ah. So I'm not going to, when he's got an idea, I'm not going to say, well, no, give it to me. You know, I'm like, do, do it. But I'm always, it's really just with the vocal.

You know, I'll be like, oh, can we, you know, we're going through Take 24. And he's like, Matt, they all sound the fucking same. But they don't to me because I've got so, and I'm like, you know. But this is the thing. Any sort of lengthy studio time can always test a producer or a, or a, Yeah, but also it's because you're passionate about what you do.

Exactly. Exactly. That's all it is. That's all it is. So the whole, all of the crap that goes around, you know, obviously we will talk about stuff that you've been through. But all the crap that goes around becoming famous, that was tough. That was tough for you. And now I just feel like you're just saying, that's so corny, but this is me. Yeah. And that's another thing that's been incredibly liberating is to not.

We've had so many chats over the years, Gabby, and they'll always be wonderful. You know, you know my feelings on the fame side of things. It was never my goal or my intention. And even when it happened, it just turned me inside myself. You weren't happy being famous. I mean, you still are, but you weren't happy with the sort of the craziness. Yeah, that level of pressure and fame was just not for a fragile little,

mind like mine that wanted to just make his music and do his thing and be very left field and indie and all the rest of it, you know, being sort of sat in that pop bracket, never really sat right with me and, you know, I understand I had to adhere to certain things with Sony and all the rest of it. And, you know, this album really, to me, is the bridge between a bridge that I want to walk down, not one that I don't, a bridge between where I am now and where I was back in 2009. I was actually with Neil the other night, and I didn't realize he'd done it, but we had all this footage of us making that record that we did with Seven Summers before X Factor, that in 2009. So the year before? The year before. We just made that record and we'd done two weeks in this

residential studio in Walpit in Suffolk, and Neil brought the rock and roll with him, you know, all the stuff that we brought along was, you know, stuff you'd expect to have a rock band, you know, for a rock band to have in a studio for two weeks, not a lot of sleep. But, you know, it was just, I was looking at videos of myself and I was just, I got really emotional because of the stress and everything that came with what I was trying to do afterwards compared to how relaxed and happy I was. I was over the moon in that studio. I was doing what I wanted to do, you know, already.

I was living my dream already. it then just happened to catapult into the celebrity side of things. But did you think in 2010 when it all happened, did you have any concept of what was going to be after? No, again, this is that. I was 27, so I feel like, I mean, I still feel 27. I feel 27 with experience. You know, my body says slightly otherwise.

No, just stay. No, choose an age. I do. I'm 33 every birthday. Yeah. Every birthday. Yeah. I mean, well, I do still feel 27, but also, again, you have that sense that you can't help but have that sense of, oh, well, this is just how it is now.

Yeah. You know, and I'm living in this posh flat in, you know, southwest London and down by the river. I've got loads of money and, you know, it's, oh, well, this is me now. I'm just like, well, is it? Do you know, how do you sustain that? If you don't want to do the celebrity thing and all the rest of it, then how do you sustain it? Were your family saying, yeah, you can do this? Or were they saying step away?

No, they were, they've always been incredibly supportive. And I, funnily enough, I was talking to a friend of mine last night who's in a very well-known band. And, you know, he's kind of recently become single. And he's sort of been left to his own devices. And we were chatting and I said, you know, I felt exactly that. No one's looking out for him slash after him. You know, he's 30s. And I said, you know what?

I felt exactly the same when I moved to London. And I was like, no one's watching me. No one's taking care of me. I just moved out of house. I could literally do what I want. And that's not always a good thing. No, yeah. You know?

And it turned out it wasn't a good thing. And so there was a certain amount of needing some level of control over myself and my life and my stress levels and all the rest of it. But that came with more of a bump than realisation. But also, you've been incredibly honest. about that time. So a few of us knew how, how, what you were going through mentally.

But, but then, you then took yourself out of it. And, and you now talk about it also openly, which is fantastic. You must feel, I'm going to use, but it's, you just must feel like you're back to that video that you were talking about from 2009. Yeah.

Because, hello, this is me again. Yeah. I mean, the one thing that I've never done, and you know this, I've never sugar-coated or fluffed up or, you know, people, people smell bullshit, they do. And it just, there's no need to. You were always very honest. I've always been probably, I remember when you were in a really, before, when you were, you know, you were in a really bad way. And I remember seeing you at something. And you came up and you went, I cannot tell you how unhappy I am. And I just thought, oh my God, you've got to do. And then, and then you were. then we talked about it. But for you to say to somebody who's relative stranger, that's how it was. That's when I totally fell for you. I just thought, wow, that's so open and honest. And the fact that you then shared it with everybody is incredible. Well, and like I said to you before, I think I'm happy to talk about it for various reasons.

One, there's no shame in it. Two, I understand the reasons behind it. I guess, and I'm not saying that anyone should, if it's a party drug situation, should feel any shame because addiction is addiction and that is that and, you know, there's no shame. But because it wasn't that, I felt an extra sort of responsibility to share as to what it was.

And if you could help one person, it's worth talking about. That's it. Just one person hears it. But you're going to help more than one. You know that. You know that. You absolutely know that. But so that's the past.

Now, let's talk about now. So there you are. In the West End and doing musical theatre started sort of was a bit of a shock to you, didn't it? Yeah, it was, but it was the stability and the consistency of and structure that I needed. Because I'd spent a year and a half, about 19 months in recovery, just going away and sitting on beaches and drinking mocktails and thinking about what I'd done and all the rest of it. You know, I was still releasing songs from Porcelain the album and Mel had the duet still and we were doing some work around that. sort of gently trying to re-insert myself into the thing that stressed me out so much.

Isn't that crazy? I know. It's nuts. But then all of a sudden this opportunity came along and thank you, Beverly Knight, for gifting that role to me in a sense because she said, would you like to try out? I said, I've never done this before. I've never acted.

I've never, you know. And I went to see out of politeness. She said, well, come and see the show. And I said, okay, of course. I'm not going to not come and see you in your show. show. Then fell in love with the role, fell in love with the show, and Beverly was absolutely instrumental. Oh, I love that lady. Good girl. She's just an angel. And her and Tara Wilkinson, which is the resident director of the, of Memphis, yeah, she just, the two of them sort of really

sort of, here comes the airplane. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. But, you know, I did do it and it did go really well for me and I was so proud of that and I was talking to someone the other day about it and I think that it was scary than anything that I'd done on X Factor. Really? Yeah, even though the X Factor. I suppose you can see the audience though, can't you? Well, yeah, and I knew what I was doing on X Factor. I knew it was in front of 17, 18, 19 million people.

Isn't that terrifying? I mean, now that TV doesn't have those sort of figures. No. But, you know, almost 20 million people were watching you. Yeah. And you were being judged on television. Everyone had their opinion, but everyone was rooting for you. Yeah, that did.

I mean, it's an immense amount of people, but they're going on a Western stage. Yeah. I mean, it sounds quite basic, but, you know, just remembering where to go, what to say, you know, how, you know, the acting of it, everything. There was just so much more than when the B doors open, walk to that microphone and sing as best you can. I've got that. You know, if my knees don't give away, I've got that. I can get to the mic and hold on at the edge of a swimming pool. but there was nowhere to hide.

So did you do any acting training? No. No, not before that. Wow. Which was, but then, you know, it was natural. Some people, I didn't realize that Ricky Jervais had never acted. And then he did the office.

Yeah. And, you know, so sometimes it can just happen. Sometimes you can just do it to a point. And then ever since then, I've just fallen in love with acting. I know. And the West End. And it's wonderful. So you're going to do more, more, you've got,

Obviously, cabaret. You should be cabaret. I went to see that the other day. And Matt Willis was absolutely amazing. You'd be good. You'd be good. I mean, I'd love to do it. You're not looking at me.

They've asked you. No, no, no, no. I wish. You would put your eyes down. I thought, oh. But there's so many shows that you could do. But also the, I hate the expression, straight acting. For me, musical theatre is acting, of course.

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, films and TV and all of that. Yes, I've always wanted, I've, you know, ever since I started. acting, that was always something that I thought, I love musical theatre, but I also would love the idea of not bursting into song. Which is just that, you know, and again, I don't like the phrase, but yeah, more straight acting or a straight acting role would be brilliant. And I think I will definitely be on the lookout for that and my agent will be on the lookout for that. Wow. But it just depends what comes along.

Yeah, but also, in 2010, if somebody said that to you, you were just going, Don't be... Absolutely. I would have said, how on earth did that happen? And the other thing about acting, which I find, isn't quite the same with the music industry,

is there is no real shelf life. No, you can do it. You can do it until you can't get the words out. But also you could write your own stuff. That's true. You write, you write music. For me, music and songs are a story anyway. Absolutely.

So why don't you write your own film? Or the three-parter for, TV, Netflix. Yeah. You can write, but you can write about what you know because that's what you do in songs and your songs are so good and they're very, very personal. So you could write.

I think, yeah, I will give it a go. But then you can verse it to song in it as well. Yeah. Is that would be sad if you didn't? Yeah. So, okay. So let's talk about, let's go back to the album then. So this is you. This is Matt as you are being honest and open and everything.

and you said about the process of recording it but now that people are hearing it and now that people, you know, the singles are out and all sorts of things is there that fear still from that you had years ago when you released stuff or do you really not care? I mean you said at the beginning, I don't really care, I do it for me but the reaction has been so good.

The reaction has been, it's been amazing and the thing that I have never wanted to do ever since, ever since X Factor for the last, what is it, 15, 16 years this year, I've had an incredibly loyal fan base and I don't, and have never wanted to let them down. I had an album that was a bit more left field, a bit more experimental and then an EP that was even more that way, again, that was never really supposed to be released. I wrote it during lockdown. And that's been my main focus recently is I don't want to, because they've been waiting

for such a long time, seven years since the last full album, to serve them up something that they weren't going to get on board with was in my mind, but I truly believe that they have received it the way I thought that they would. And I kept saying if

I'd see them at different situations like when I'm doing shows or a panza or whatever, and I'd see some of them and I say, I know you're going to love it because I know what you liked of the old stuff and it is way more back to that sort of that first album after X Factor, but with sounding like now. The next album, which is why I say that it's that sort of bridging moment,

the next album which I'm sort of three quarters of the way through writing. Oh, how exciting. Yeah, it's a bit, it's one of those things, because it's taken me so long to get this one out. You now can't stop. Yes. And there's so much stuff in the tank already for the new album. But I'm not turning it.

my back on anyone, I'm just, you know, there's, it's, it's, you know, I was watching Rick Rubin talking about it the other day and if you, if you consider anyone and, I mean, anyone, when you're writing music, then you're doing the wrong thing. Do you like it? Is it right? Is it what you want to say? Does it sound how you want it to sound great? And that will be how the next album will be. And people might not like it, but then I'm also not that fast. So when's that going to come out when you're thinking when are we now do we on it I would say realistically

considering that I've been doing got another six or eight weeks in kinky boots I reckon it it would be first thing next year okay and also I'm not Are you doing Panto again this year? Do you probably? I hope so do you really enjoy Panto? Someone give me a call I'm free for Panto

yeah I love that that was good fun that was good fun and I made some really really good friends on it as well I mean, Gok is, you know, an absolute angel. I love that. I love Gok. Yeah. Very well.

Known for years. He's a good guy. Yeah. So it was fun. I mean, hard work. It is hard work. 12 shows a week is crazy. But so it just, to me, it feels like not only are you happy, but you're ready to open doors that you just never thought you would do.

And if somebody sends something, you're way, I feel like you're not going to say no. No. For the right reasons. Absolutely. For the right. right reasons. And even if, you know, for example, I've been asked countless times when I'm doing cruise ships. I do a Q&A on the cruise ships before I do my set and things and everyone's asking, would I do another reality TV? And the answer has always been, you know, at this stage I go,

no, I wouldn't. Because I am a musician and it's taken me a long time to have the confidence to say I am an artist, but I am. I would never have said that year after X Factor. I would have said I've become this kind of... What was you said you were? A public figure or something. I mean, I didn't feel I had the credibility say, yeah, I'm an artist. I did not have... Artist is a good word because that can be musical theatre.

It can be singing. It can be acting. It can be... Yeah. The arts as a whole. Exactly. And I feel that if I had gone from that reality TV to that to that to that, to that, to that, then you can't call yourself an artist.

You can't be considered as being an artist. You must have been asked to be. on all of them? I think I have done at some point yes yeah yeah absolutely and I've always said no but now I feel you know I'm 43 years old I've proved to myself that I'm in it for the right reasons and I'm doing my music I'm writing and creating music for the right reasons but now I you know I just want to have a laugh you know that's so lovely yeah you know if strictly came along I'd say yes. If the jungle came along, I'd say yes. Really? Yeah, why not?

It's an experience. If S-A-S-Who dares wins came along, I'd say absolutely yeah. I don't... But I also don't think the perception would be of someone, you know, just trying to raise profile and all the rest, because I would have done that over the last 16 years, and I haven't. You know? So you'd be doing it for all the right reasons. Yeah, because it's fun and it's an experience, and I can now. Oh, my word! You could do it all. So that means, like I said,

You're not going to say no. No, absolutely. And I had this conversation with my manager literally yesterday. Nathan? Nathan, yeah, yeah, yeah. All these years you've been together. He's just, I don't know, like my mum said it. I don't know where he hides his wings, but they're somewhere.

I said this to him yesterday and I said, look, you're going to get yeses across the board from me now. And he was like, you have no idea how long have he waited to hear you say that, which is true because, you know, I've been, and I know, I think we've had this conversation before, I've been trying to bury myself because I do consider, and I think this is true, in fact, I know it's true, in any art form, be it poetry, music, any of it, I think the, you know, paintings, mystery is key. It's almost like the linchpin to anyone engaging with you. It's got to be good, but also, oh, what's this, who's this? It's new. Like, mystery is always new. Like, Lady Garga, oh, the mystery of Lady Garga or she car. You know, there's mystery.

It was impossible to find any mystery in me in 2011 because people had, I'd been over-exposed and, you know, there was, you know, people had watched my dad crying in my kitchen going, oh, I'm proud of you, son, and all right. It's not very mysterious, is it? But you keep your private life private now? I do, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But I've kind of, you know, not done any of the reality stuff and sort of attempted to bury myself to try and regain the credibility that I lost before I went on X Factor and it's got to this point to realize that no one gives a shit. I don't anymore. I don't care about it.

But you do keep your private life private and I think that's important. You know, I really, really do because people know you're in a relationship but it's nobody's business. Really? Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, when I had face

just before I went on to X Factor. I think I uploaded my, I changed my Facebook status once, and it just said fuck wasps. That's all it was, because my dog got stung by a wasp, and that was it. And then when I went on to the X Factor and heard about Twitter and all that sorts of stuff, what is it? Oh, it's just Facebook status updates, and I was like, well, I don't want that. And I said, well, you have to have that, because you need to tell people what you're doing.

I don't want to tell anyone what I'm doing. You know, and I've always maintained that. to my detriment at some points, but whatever, I don't post, you know, you know my Instagram, it's minimal. I've taken most of it down, I'm just starting again, but I don't, I just keep myself to myself as much as I can. That's good, and carry on doing it because look how happy you are, which is fantastic. So on reasons to be joyful, we always ask everybody what brings them joy. I have a feeling I know what it is, because is it sitting on the floor? Yep.

I'm very excited because nobody else has brought one in. Really? Yes. All that's strange. Nobody else. This is my reason. This is your skateboard. It is one of. I mean, a skateboarder goes through about,

and if any real skateboarders are watching this, yes, I know, it's a fresh deck. I haven't been out on it very much. How many have you got? Oh, you only have that. Well, I mean, it depends. One, normally. Oh, right, okay.

But you'll go through, I can't, I mean, I must have been through hundreds and hundreds of boards. They don't last very long because it's just plywood. Okay, talk me through when this started, your love of skateboarding? So it started when I was about 12. So I started playing guitar at 9. And then I was at a friend's house, Ross McWilson, and he had a skateboard. And I think this is how many skateboarders start.

They sit on it or, you know, because it's difficult to stand on it. So we were sitting on it, the two of us, you can imagine, we're a bit smaller at the time. So with two of us on a skateboard just going down the hill. And then, you know, you figure out that you can, you know, just stand up and roll around in it.

So you start doing that. And then you find the need to get up a curb, which is, you know, that high. So you need to learn how to Olly. So you learn how to Olly. And then that's it. You're done. Because the next thing is why,

you know, you can kickflip. What's a kickflip? So you do a kickflip. And then the, and then you go completely down the skateboarding rabbit hole. and it consumed my life as just as, if not more than music did. Oh, my word.

Yeah, yeah. I skate every day. I would skate two miles into town from my little village. I would skate. I've got one thigh slightly bigger than the other because I skate goofy right foot forward. I'd skate two miles into town and then spend nine hours at the skate park and then skate a walk two miles back because it's slightly uphill. I would do that.

I dropped out of two different colleges because of skateboarding because I was at the skate park and not going to college. But the thing I think skateboarding personally is one of the single best things that anyone on this planet can do because of what it does for you. Not only does it, it's a test of balance, coordination, but it's the, you know, I've learned, my guitar taught me the fact that I could chase down my dream

of being a musician but the skateboard taught me how to do that because with skateboarding failing isn't the final bit failing becomes fundamental in skateboarding

you are going to fail from the very beginning and it's going to be hurt it's going to hurt it's going to be painful every time you try you're going to get it wrong and that mindset is this gave me the right mindset to be sitting here now with you knowing that even if this album fails, it doesn't matter, the next one will land.

You know, that's it. That's incredible. But it's about trust as well, isn't it? Trusting yourself and trusting what you're doing. Absolutely. I mean, and, you know, when you're rolling up, the amount of things that are happening in microseconds as you're rolling up to an obstacle or a set of steps to hit a handrail or something is, you know, the flow state that you,

get into when you're skateboarding is, is quite, it's, it's meditative. But yeah, it really is the fact that we would go, you know, I'd go to the skate park and I would spend all day throwing myself out the floor and then leaving having not done it and I cannot wait to get back the next day to probably do that again and then in two days time land it and just be absolutely over the moon. And it's, that is the failure of it that sets anyone up, I think, for resilience up here. and in the body as well. I mean, I hurt in various places because of this.

But it's taught me how to navigate life. That's why it's... Do you go through the streets to get to work on the skateboard? I used to. If I'm in a West End show, I'm not allowed to ride it because... Oh, in case you fall over. If you fall over and hurt your wrist or something, you can't do the show. And it's like, what were you doing?

I was on my skateboard. I mean, it's just before I started Kinky Boots. I remembered that I wasn't going to get a chance to ride it for a while and quite serendipitously, I went to the skate park and I saw these two other guys, one was 50 and one was, I think, exactly my age and we kind of just little nod like that. Oh, how lovely.

We all congregate in the middle. It's like, it's been a while. It's like, I haven't been over 10 years. And I was like, it's been a couple of years to me. So we all just, you know, just had a little skate together because it's very competitive as well. But how lovely? What a lovely thing that you did,

the three of you together. Yeah. But we were all just there. Normally it's just you and a bunch of, you know, semi-professional 20-year-olds and 19-year-olds. And now, we just saw, you just clocked it. We just knew that, you know, a bit wobbly, a bit like, all right. I mean, I used to do it when I was younger, and it was all with the boys, and I loved it.

And I was a girl that was doing it. Yeah. But then I tried to get in lockdown because my younger daughter loved it. And I couldn't stay on it anymore. It's not like riding a bike. It's not. I mean, it's the balance of it. you really, that needs to be sort of honed on a daily basis

because I mean I can get around, I mean I can get around on it now and you would see someone that looks like they can skate. They can skate, yeah. But as soon as I tried to do something like a trick, I would end up falling out. I mean, I'll happily, as soon as kingy boots is over, I'll go down. I'll go back to the skate park and I'll carry on from where I was.

But there was a really beautiful, because I wanted to do it professionally for a while as well because it was all consuming. And I remember my good friend Scott, we were all at the skate park, trying to do a certain trick. And we'd always get annoyed if we didn't land things

or if the skate wasn't going, or the session, sorry, wasn't going how we wanted it to. And then this kid came along. He must have been about 14. And he just did it. And then he just turned around to us. And he's like, we're never going to be sponsored, are we? And we all just went,

nah. And then he went, should we just enjoy it and have a laugh? Yeah. And it was just this really one specific moment and then from then on skateboarding became even more fun because we would take the piss out of each other

then if you fell over or if we weren't getting it it just wouldn't matter. There wasn't this need to progress. It was like well should we just do it at our own pace? Honestly I thought there was a boy at school that I fancied so much and it was because he was a skateboarder. It's cool. Yeah. Standing sideways going forward always looks cool.

Snowboard, surfboard, skateboard. Do you snowboard as well? I do, yeah. I don't surf. I've never surfed, but I've snowboarded most years, yeah. I would love that. Because you're saying yes to everything. No more knows. There we go. Oh, Matt Carmel, thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you. A joy to be with you. And you.