That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Rev. Kate Bottley

Episode Date: September 26, 2023

This week, Gaby is joined by the Reverend Kate Bottley. Kate is a ray of sunshine and her joy and outlook on life are infectious! As well as being a Church of England Priest, Kate is also presents on Radio and TV - and has just published her first book. During this warm chat, they talk about faith and religion (the good and the bad), the importance of smiling and how we can all be a little bit kinder to one another. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

and welcome to Reasons to Be Joyful. On today's episode, I am so thrilled to welcome one of the most joyful and life-affirming humans on the planet, the Reverend Kate Botley. Kate is so full of life and joy and humor and wisdom and she's a Church of England priest, a radio and TV presenter, a journalist and now an author and I love her. Her new book, Have a Little Faith, is a warm, wise and wonderful read which I can highly recommend to everyone Kate finds the joy in everything and hope this

episode will put a smile on your face Yeah yeah yeah Okay Kate Botley Reverend the first time you met Who Kylie Minnock boom Let's start like this The first time I met

Carly Mnuck I accidentally curtsed How can you accidentally curtsy I don't know what happened Something came over me in like a sort of She's like royalty, right? Yeah, no, she is. So it was like an instinct of, I sort of bobbed.

Did she notice? It was either that or genuflecting. It was like there was like a holiness about her. She did notice. And then I realised I'm actually shorter than her. And we stood back to back and she was good inch taller than me. And then the second time I met Kylie. So I have to just go back on that.

Go on. You're shorter than Kylie Minow? Shorter than Kylie Minogue. Yeah, I know. Crazy. She's really short as well. I'm shorter. Anyway, the second time I met.

she remembered my name. I don't think she did. I think it was a proper devil-wheres pride and Miranda Priestly moment of the assistant behind a reverend car, aren't they? Like that. But we met in the toilets at Radio 2. I'm sorry. No. No. Of course she's going to remember you. How would anybody not know you? You're so sweet.

No, seriously, everybody I know knows you, but I don't mean they know you. They haven't come up and hugged you like I'm able to do. but they all know you. Everybody thinks of you as their friend. Everybody knows you, no matter whether they're young or old, whether they watch the shows or don't watch the shows, whether they listen to you or don't listen to you,

whether they have read your book or not read your book. Whether they're religious. And I was going to say, all religions have adopted you and they keep you really close to your heart. And you know that. What a sweet thing to say. And it's lovely to be the kind of nations appointed religious kind of, I love it.

I absolutely love it. And one of the things that sometimes said to me now, I'm not a sort of job in parish priest anymore. I'm like a supply vicar these days. So I pop up when people are off or ill or whatever. And people go, oh, do you miss parish ministry? And I'm like, well, no, because I'm still doing it. It's just a really weird-sized parish and a really odd pulpit. You know, so I still, obviously I still do the way.

weddings, the christenings and funerals and all that sort of stuff. But, you know, I've got talking to a bloke on the training who recognised me off the telebox and, you know, just my job is smiling at people a lot and I really, I really love it. It's my vocation, it's why I, it's not a job, is it? It's why I feel like I'm on the earth is to just kind of go, it'll be all right, you really loved. It'll be, it'll probably be all right, you're really loved and you're a beautiful, gorgeous human and let's draw that out of people. and so yeah

and it's funny because I remember when I got ordained the night before I got ordained I was really sad because a whole load of people while I was at Vicar School had said to me well you won't be allowed to do that

when you're a vicar you won't be allowed to be like that what were they talking about just sort of outgoing and loud and bubbly you know and the whole idea was that as a priest you serve your community and you sort of disappear a little bit

behind the collar you become a kind of blank canvas for other people to project what they need on to you. So I thought, oh, that don't sound like me. I'm no shrinking violent. That does not sound like me. And it's wonderful, you know, because I am more me now than I think I've ever been. Give me a microphone. Give me a brightly-colored frock. Give me a book to write. Give me a telly show to be on. And I just, I'm filled with joy. And it's wonderful.

So it's so bizarre. I feel like I'm, obviously, there's no way I could be a vicar. I could be a rabbi, I suppose. But it's, it's, you feel the same about life. as I do and it's very you're very lucky to feel like that because there are a lot of people who don't and you make people feel like that so that's the gift that you put out

and it's interesting that it is quite a... Whether people believe in God or they have a belief in a spirituality or I was speaking to Ben Goldsmith the other night and he's after the tragic death of his daughter

he's found a sort of an energy and a spirituality in rewilding his farm and things like that. So people have a feeling of religion or energy, but yet you make it safe to feel what we feel. That's incredible. That's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. I want to give permission giving.

Because what I get is people walking up to me in the street, like it's just stepping on the train on the way in, and they say to me, they open the sentence with, I'm not religious, but. Do they every time? And I'm really interested in that but. And then they tell me something, Gabby, that's like, oh, I like lighting a candle,

or I discovered a new energy after the... And they can't use words like God and Christianity and Judaism or any... They can't organise it and quantify it and measure it. But they then tell me things like, I like to light a candle when I go into a church, or I definitely hope that my grand's in a better place. And they use language like that.

So I wonder if it's not that we've lost our faith. It's not that I think we're probably less religious than we certainly were. And the stats show that, don't they? The census forms show that. But I think that we still have that desire to understand that we're more than just walking, talking meat. You know, we're not just eating, sleeping, you know, breeding machines. We're more, there's more to it than that. And I just kind of want, I think we've thrown the big.

be out with the bathwater a little bit with religion? And it's like I can't be religious. I totally understand that. But then I do believe in the universe or manifesting or energy or power of love or something bigger than me. And I go, okay, let me interpret that for you. Let me try and curate that faith conversation with you in that gap between the religious and the secular.

So when you were little, did you believe in God? Did you think God is a, you know, like when lots of children think he's an old man with a long beard and he's watching over you going, are you being good? A cosmic Santa Claus. Yeah, like Santa. Did you believe, were you a believer when you were a child? I think lots of children are. I was christened as a baby like lots of people are, but never taken to church, never taken to any sort of we didn't, we didn't, not even a Christmas or Easter or anything like that. but I definitely prayed.

I mean, mostly out of fear, I think. And also, I felt an obligation to mention everybody who died. So I was trying to figure out, as a five-year-old, six-year-old, you suddenly become aware of mortality and fragility. You know, that's a really clear developmental stage, isn't it? And I think I definitely had that cosmic Santa Claus view. What's really interesting to me is that lots of grown-ups have never moved on from that. So when people talk about the God they don't believe,

I don't believe in that God either. I don't believe in a male God. I don't believe in a male God. I don't believe in someone who sits on a cloud, controlling the weather with a beard. I don't believe in any of that. I believe in something much more nuanced and beautiful and complicated and difficult and frustrating. And it's a little bit like we're trying to understand something

that is completely incomprehensible. Tell a story in the book about, you know when people go and I'm a celebrity, get me out of here? I'm never doing it, by the way. Well, never say never, never, hey. but they eat the kangaroo testicle and they go, what does it taste?

I can't do a Jordi accent, I'm not bothered. What does it taste like? And they always got, it tastes like chicken. Well, of course, kangaroo testicle does not taste like chicken. Have you tasted it? No, but kangaroo testicle tastes like kangaroo testicle, right?

But because nobody's tasted it like I haven't, you can only use the language that you have to compare it to something. You can only use metaphor. You can only say it tastes like chicken. And when we're talking about God, or energy or power or the universe, whatever you want to call it,

our words are so limiting. They're not enough to describe what that might be. And so we say it's a man on a cloud with a beard because we say it tastes like chicken. Because we cannot, how can our tiny weeny, fragile, fallible human brains conceive of something that is infinite and unique? What answer do you give?

I actually had this conversation with the rabbi. only yesterday because he was telling me about something and what do you say to the people who get hurt, upset, angry

whatever word you want to give when they say look what's happening in the world why did my child die why is their cancer why is their flooding why is their climate check

why is the what you know all we're all waking up to the most horrific news every single day we can't deny that and then they question belief

And rightly so. That's what he said. And rightly so. And I don't know. I mean, if I knew that, you know, that would be it, wouldn't it? We'd have done it. I don't think God is some sort of cruel puppet master who tests us by chucking horrible stuff as how could I, you know, not to get too heavy, Gabby, but I walk alongside people at the most vulnerable moments in their life. You know, I've watched mum carry coffins into church of their own children.

I stand there and scream and shout alongside them and I don't know but that's the nature of faith it's not called sure it's called faith and it's a nuance and it's a belief in something that we don't fully comprehend and I have to take the rough with the smooth

I will be sure to ask the right questions when I get there and want the answers but until then I think my job is to love people as much as I possibly and to allow other people to love me. And the rest will figure out as we go along. So it's not an answer because there is no answer to that question. Because that's the ultimate question, isn't it?

Why is there evil and suffering in the universe? We don't know. But as a person who is signed up at the office of the Christian faith, for me I do get a lot of comfort in this idea that Jesus himself, whatever you think about him, was on the cross and said, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? So even he said, where the hell are you in that moment of his suffering? And for me, there's a real kind of solidarity in that,

that the very kind of leader of my faith had that real human moment of going, where the hell are you, God? I don't, I'm struggling here. So everyone can question. So everyone can question, even the son of God himself questioned where the hell are you. So there's a solidarity in that, that this is. is something that connects us all is these questions we have about human suffering. And we're not immune.

Those of us who are professionally religious are not immune to any of this stuff. Some days, I don't believe a word of it. How could I? You know. You've gone through only recently, some utterly heartbreaking stuff that we all actually have to go through, but it doesn't make it any easier. But there is a shared community out there of people who've gone through it as well. But interestingly, the rabbi yesterday, the thing,

thing he said and the word you've used a lot and every time I see you use the word, every time I hear you on radio, on television, the word love. And I think we all use it possibly too easily, but maybe we don't listen enough to what love should be. So what is love to you? It is the most complicated, a joyous beautiful thing in the world and it comes it's the essence of the divine it is the purest cleanest water the food that feeds you it's the arms that hold you it's a choice sometimes you know I've been with my husband for 30 years we've been married for 25 and some days I have to choose to love that boy and he has to choose to love me do you know what I'm saying um good you're normal absolutely of course you know when he eats crisps I want to punch him

the head. You know, it's, I don't really. How about crunching apples? Oh my goodness. Oh, worse. Worse than crisps. Crunching apples.

There's a man on the train I had to move carriages. I do that. I do that. Or chewing. That's not. Goodness me. I forget my,

I have to slip the dog colour off because I'm just going to, I'm just going to like, do that? Do you do that? Do you do that? Of course I do. Yeah, of course I do.

On the tube? Yeah. Sometimes you just think I can't, I can't do. I'm done. with being nice today I need to because I'm gonna you know I'm P-R for Jesus here

so I'm gonna let him down is what I always think I need to just slip that out because I'm gonna I'm gonna say something I'm really shan sorry so and you must get it all the time you open your big mouth

and then someone goes excuse me you're that woman off the day oh no I've been got I've been got you asking about love it's also frustrating

but it's what sustains me you know the idea I believe in bigger power in the universe that created love, love was this power's idea, the idea that the author of love in the universe loves me and loves you just blows my tiny mind and that love is unconditional and sustained. It will not, even if I did the worst thing in the world, and other people can't love me and I can't love myself. This idea that the author of love

in the universe loves me is just incredible. And loving yourself is important. Well, that's the thing you say, because, you know, the Great Commandment, which goes through all religions, golden rule, as we call it, love one another as you love yourself. Well, the most important thing in that sentence is

love one another as you love yourself. So love yourself is the first... So if you hate yourself, you can't love anybody else. And it's... Is that a golden rule? I've never... It's called the golden rule. It's in Buddhism, it's in Sikhism, it's in Hinduism.

Buddhism's not a religion, it's a philosophy, but it's in all the six major world religions. It's the same tenet in all of them. It unites us all. It's called the Golden Room. I was very lucky to go to a Sikh wedding reason. Oh, lovely, and a good warre. Oh, it was gorgeous. Do you have fun?

Fantastic. Loads of food in the Langer in the kitchen. It was like a Jewish wedding there. There's food everywhere. Food everywhere. But the word love kept coming up and it's about spreading life. Because that's all we want, right?

Yeah. That's all we want as broken, fallible human beings. All we want is for someone to go, you're all right, you, you're loved. Yes. You're important, you matter. And, you know, there's a lot about religion that I struggle with. My own religion, other people's religion,

I find it really difficult. And I'm signed up, like I say, at the office. You know, I'm a professional religious person. A woman at church, an old lady at church a long time ago, I said to me, you don't let religion put you off God, love. And I really hope. hold on to that. I really hold on to it. That's such a great line. It's a great line, isn't it? And I think that's what we've done. I think, I think we've sort of gone, well, I can't believe

that. So I've just got rid of the whole concept of something higher than me and this idea of spirituality. If you think of it as like three, I talk about this in the book, if you think of it as sort of like a Venn diagram with three rings, you know, and I think the quest, I think the quest as humans is to be as well connected with ourselves as we possibly can be, to know and love ourselves as much as we can. And then the next circle is to no one love other people, to be connected with others. No man is an island entire of himself, as John Dunn said. But then the third circle for me is this idea to be connected with something that's bigger than you. And you feel it. You feel it when the baby's born. You feel it when you stood on the mountaintop. You feel

it when you connect with a stranger and you have a lovely chat and the hair stand upon your back in your neck and you go, oh my goodness, what a beautiful world. And that sweet spot in the middle where we know ourselves, know others and know that there's something bigger than me in the world. It ain't all about me. I know it's a shock, right? That's the sweet spot. And that's the constant quest for me

is to find that bit in the middle. Your book is an absolute gift. Is that how you wrote it as a gift? Yeah. I mean, obviously you want people to buy it. Yeah, obviously. It took a lot of persuaded, and I've got a mortgage to pay and all that sort of stuff,

but it was hard work. I think that's why I was so. reluctantly dragged into it, but like most things in my life, the things I'm dragged into are usually the things that are the most fruitful, a little bit like being ordained as a priest. I really didn't want to do it. You're dragged into that. Yeah, very much so. So you're dragged into your book, dragged into TV and dragged into being a priest.

Yeah, and then you sort of blossom where you planted, don't you? You bloom where you planted, that's the gig, you know. And I think anybody, being a priest is a bit like being a politician. If anyone says they want to be one, they probably shouldn't be one. It's the vocation of it, isn't it? It's not a job. It's a vocation. So, you know, I'll be brutally honest.

And literally, I thought, oh, that'll pay the mortgage for six months. But, you know. What's the book called being an ordained? No, no. Being ordained doesn't pay anything, darling. Especially now. I'm voluntary.

So I thought, oh, you know, cynical me. Because, you know, I'm just to say. I mean, I think that's what Gogglebox showed is. That's why we did goggle box. I just want to go, we're just like everybody else, you know. Yeah, yeah. It's because we're religious. But you also have to pay the mortgage.

Yeah, of course. And Jesus don't buy school shoes. You know what I'm saying. So, you know, and then the writing process was really difficult because it's so introvert. I mean, I don't know how you find it, but, you know, being a professional show off, the idea that there was no one to clap at the end of a chapter. I was like, could someone just give me a round of applause and tell me I'm doing a good job? So did you read it to people?

Did you let people read it? No, I still won't like Graham read it. I weren't like anyone. It was mortifying though. And people go, I'm reading your book. I'm like, oh, please don't. It'll be in the work. for two quid by Christmas.

Yeah, it's just... Because it's also in black and white, right? I mean, I know that everything we say online, on socials, on telly, is there forever these days anyway. But there was something about bearing... It was almost confessional. But yeah, it's supposed to help.

It's not a celebrity memoir. It's not stories of me on Drunken Nights Out with Claire Bolding. You know, it's not that kind of thing. You have had those? These, have you? I think I've had one. She's a hoot. Oh, she's fantastic.

She's a hoot. Anyway, it's not that. We nearly set fire at her on the wheel. You know, we did the Christmas celebrity special of the wheel together and her chair malfunctioned. And there was smoke rising out the back of national treasure. But wherever she goes, there's always smoke rising out of, you know. Because she is, she's a goddess.

Another goddess. She's not queen, she's goddess. She has her own dry ice machine wherever she goes. It's life lessons is what it is. You know, I came to fame sat on, sat on a sofa watching telly. But it's not the only sofa I've sat on. I've sat on a lot of people's sofas in my job as a priest and despite not feeling like I've learnt very much

they have taught me a few things these people That's exactly what I was going to say, that's what your books about And I've gathered things along the way You know my perspective's changed about things like birth and marriage And death especially in light of my mum's death back in January You know you're learning stuff all the time And also I've got to the depleting estrogen stage where people look at you as the wise woman of the village now

and they got right, okay, what have you learned? But I reckon you were wise as a child. You have a tremendous, you've got very, I don't know how you feel about spirituality and all of those things, but I'll ask you in a sec, but I feel that you are one of those people that knew a lot when you were very little, you were very wise,

and you carry that wisdom lightly. I was raised by some very strong and clever women despite none of them would ever say, never pressed an examiner in their lives, my aunties and my mum. You know, big working class family, very matriarchal, and full of kindness and love and generosity

and loud. You know, if I tell you, Gabby, I'm one of the quieter members of my family. I'm the shy one. I love them already. Come to our house as well. Just two daughters. The loud, my husband is there sitting with his hat.

fingers in his ears, yeah. Just big boobs, big bums, huge hips, lots of food, lots of generous, you know, generous nature, lots of laughter. And what I hope that I do, what I aim to do, is to take really big things and make them understandable. So really big truth, really big theological points, really big ideas and try and make them understand. Because somehow, religion has become sort of the preserving. the intellectual or the, you know, and I'm like, actually we own this. Folk religion is really important to me. You know, so my, when my mum was very ill a few years ago, she was ill for a long time.

I remember the aunties gathering around the bedside. None of them have ever, you know, never been churchgoers. None of them confirmed or anything like that. But in that moment, you know, should we say a prayer, are Katie? You know, all that. And I just have such respect. And I think sometimes organized religion dismisses the value of something. lighting a candle

or praying or going, well I hope, I hope my granny's in heaven and not knowing what any of that means because none of us know what it means. But were you like that as a child? I bet you were. One of my first books was a...

I mean, I only became religious in a formal sense when I was about 14, 15. And I had a sort of classic conversion experience really. And that was because I fancied a boy at school and he was the vicar's son. So I went along to do. church in order to get, you know, in order to get in order to get him with him. So I only went for a snark and ended up with a dog collar, what really was wanting

in mind. That's Graham. We got married, as you know. Yes. But I definitely had a sense of caring and serving. And I remember my primary school teacher thought I was going to be a nurse. She said that quite early on that she thought I would be in a caring profession. And I used to think very deeply.

You know, I used to read a lot and think very deeply. And I got into Shakespeare and Chaucer when I was about. 11 and all that sort of stuff. So Arcadia was definitely the clever one and definitely willing to do some thinking. But that's not a coat you easily wear when you come from my kind of background. You know, it's first one to go to university.

I mean, first generation full female literacy. You know, my mum couldn't really read them right. My granny certainly couldn't. You know, so it's powerful stuff really. I said this in the book. It's really important. look back down the mountain every now and again because we're so busy on focusing on where we're going

and what we haven't achieved yet that actually part of your success is toward it how far you've come. But also being in the moment and I do get that you live in the moment. You know, it's living in the now and I think so many people and I always bang on about and people just go, how do you do it?

But, you know, we spend so much time. Oh, I did that last week. I've got this to look forward to. But hold on this moment. We're never going to have this moment. again, that second has just gone. And that's that, you know, that Venn diagram we were talking about, that's that connection with others.

So we're having it right now. We're having this beautiful connection, a lovely chat, a lovely conversation. We might not see each other for another, I wouldn't know how long. But those connections are such beautiful golden times that we're made for as human beings. You know, this is what we were created for. Actually, that's what I think a lot of older and elderly people missed out on. I think COVID was huge for the very young. and very old.

And I think we're going to just get the knock on effect from it now because there's such an increase in dementia, there's such an increase in children's mental health issues. And I think because of that connection, everybody missed out for such a long time with just even one-on-one, just talking to somebody else. And I think there's a lot of problems, I think, that are going to come from that.

But I get the feeling that you automatically connect with everybody. I can't imagine you're not connecting with somebody. I try really hard. I mean, sometimes, you know... To not connect. No, to connect. You know, there is a wonderful story. Jesus, when he sends out the disciples,

says that if you go to a place you're not made welcome, shake the dust off your feet and leave. And in those days, feet were... Oh, take me through that. Oh, great. So he sends out the disciples to go and do the thing. And he says, look, if you go to a place and they don't make you welcome,

these are not your humans, it's okay to shake the dust off your feet and leave. And what you have to remember about feet in biblical times is they were akin to like sort of almost like genitals actually. They were a very intimate part of the body. And so showing the soles of your feet at people was like an insult. You know, it was like it was quite rude. You know, it was almost like sticking the Vs up at somebody. So, and we lose that in translation these days because it doesn't mean that to us, you know.

But you still see it in some cultures, you know, when people throw shoes or, you know, you're not allowed to put your feet up in certain cultures, are you? You know, because it's rude. So he would say, look, if you're not made welcome, it's fine, it's fine, just move on. Don't worry about it. Not everyone is your cup of tea and that's okay. But that's okay, is it? Yeah, of course. And so what happens is I'll start talking to somebody and it's quite clear they don't want anything to do with me.

So you just bless and move on. And that's both in the face-to-face world and in the virtual world. You know, you ain't everybody's cup of tea. Yeah. And that's okay. That's okay. Who knows what they've got going on? You know?

Who knows what their day's been like, what their story is. And so we just bless and we move on. And we just let them do what they do. Wish them no ill. Hope they have a better day tomorrow. Shake the dust off your feet and just move on. I love that. I had this conversation with people all the time that when somebody pulls out in the car

and many people that we know probably get very angry, go, what are you doing? Don't remember. You never know. They might have just, they might just be about to have a baby and they're rushing back to their partner or somebody might be very ill or they might be really overexcited about something.

You've got to remember that that's their path. It's not just that they're being rude. But it's also... But it's also self-preservation for us because, you know, the one we do is it must be a brain surgeon on the way to do surgery. That's the one we always do.

When someone's driving like an idiot on the road, it must be a brain surgeon on these way to do surgery. Because that's not just for them. That's not just me trying to project good... But it's also for my own self-preservation because I can't believe that people are that mean. Yeah. I have to believe in the good in people.

I have to because I have to believe in the good in me. You know, and I tell a story in the book about somebody I worked with who had killed a child and I went and did a piece of work with them. And it was impossible for me to comprehend what they had done. I could not allow myself to think too much about what they'd done. And I had to work really hard to search for the humanity in them. But I had to believe, and that's the biggest challenge of my faith. The hardest thing about my faith is believing that nobody is defined by the worst thing that they've done. And that's

really hard. That is the real, you know, and this idea, you know, sometimes we're at Christianity up and we've talked about it. We've just gone, oh, it's about love and joy. But it's also about, it's also work. To have faith, not just in something bigger than yourself, but also in other people means that you have, it's not an easy thing to see the love and the joy in everybody. It is graft and it takes work. I have this conversation with an atheist. I know very well. And they always say they believe that there is true evil.

And obviously throughout history, we don't need to name those people, but we know exactly who we're talking about and they were truly evil, truly evil. But they say, how do you always say, got to look for the best on everybody? Because I try to. But everybody's got it. But that's not about them. That's more about me. When I look for the best in people, that's not about me dismissing what they've done or saying it doesn't matter or any of that.

But it's about I have to believe, I have to believe in redemption. I have to believe in those things. And of course, you know, it's not my job. That's the great thing about believing in a higher power is I don't. have to be in charge of judgment or retribution or any of that stuff, I can just go, okay, all right, I don't know what to do here. So I'm going to hold them for a second. And the job of a priest is that. People give you the heavy stuff to hold. They go, can you just hold this for a minute? And sometimes that heavy stuff is, I've just had a baby and I don't know what I'm doing,

or it's my wedding day or that. Sometimes it's really, really big stuff that they give you. And you go, I'm just going to hold it for a bit. I don't have to hold it for long. They have to hold it for longer. I'm just going to hold it for a bit and I don't know what to do with it so I'll just sit with it and allow it to weigh me down it's not all sunshines and rainbows it's hard you know you have to sit in the darkness

every now and again and dwell with it and go this is tough I had a conversation with lovely nurses recently who look after terminally ill children and they help the families

this was at the World Child Awards and they help the families and the siblings and they have to help the families through the child dying as well. And they all say the same thing. This is privilege and it's my job, but it's a real privilege. And they say everybody always says, how do you go home at the end of the day after that? And they say, I just feel blessed. And I get that, like you said, everyone thought you're going to be a nurse.

it's a similar job. Yeah, it is. I mean, you know, I've done some, I've walked with some people and some really tough stuff and it is a privilege. And you ask any job in priest, anybody who does professional religion,

our best bits of funerals, that's the best bit. Really? And that sounds really weird to say the best bit, like you enjoy it. That's not quite the right word. But, you know, when we,

Richard Coles and all that sort of people, you know, whenever we get, together as vickers. That's the first chat we have is about who we've buried recently and how it went. That's the shop that's... Because you're holding the hands and family. And you just, you just feel so blooming useful. You feel so useful. You feel like this is what you were made for. And people come to you in this chaos and they don't know what they're doing. They might only organise one or two funnels in their life. You do these every week, you know, and so you go, it's okay. Give me that. Give me that bag. Give me that heavy burden for a bit and I'll hold it for you.

All you need to do is grieve. I'll do everything else. You just grieve. And when you were talking about the pandemic a minute ago, you know, we clap for nurses and doctors and rightly so. But every time I went out on that front doorstep, I was clapping for the grave diggers and the funeral directors and the crem staff and the mortuary staff.

Because they just kept, they're just these calm, steady people who just keep the shell on the road. Just keep it going. And we all need them. Just death and tax, you know, and the only two certainties in life. And I had a weird experience when my mum died back in January

of being like the professional religious person who knew how to do a funeral and my dad kind of went off you go, Arquita, it was really weird because he's obviously being a Yorkshireman he's careful with his money, shall we say. And I sort of said, well, we can get the funeral director

to do everything to organise all the flowers, organise all the orders of service or Dad, I can call in a few favours if you want and of course you know what he went for. Oh, you call in a few favours, to see what discounts you can get for us. So we did a bit of that, but it's wonderful. There's a reason why undertakers are called undertakers,

because they undertake things for you. It is their job to undertake all the worries and undertake all the details of that day. That's so weird. I've never even thought of that, isn't it? That's what it is. You don't even have to open your own car door. You don't even have to put your own umbrella up if you don't want to.

They undertake everything for you. How stupid am I that? I hadn't even realised that that's what the word was. Oh, you see, you see joy and everything. You really are, you're a joy spreader and I like collecting joy spreaders. And the thing is we can talk about really difficult stuff like death. But actually we have to. It's important to talk about it.

And even in those darkest, darkest moments, there is always something of joy to be found, I think. And joy is not happiness. It's not glib. It's not the ribbon on a present. You know, happiness is a lovely thing. But joy is something very different. And it can be felt even in your saddest moments. There will be some deep.

It's a contentment. It's a sense of being in the right place at the right time. It's knowing who you are, knowing other people are. And joy is not pasting on a red lipstick and a smile and getting pushing through it and going, oh, she won't want us to cry. Actually, it's okay. When someone dies, it don't really matter what they want anymore.

It's about what you need, you know. So we can talk about this big scary stuff. And that's what the book does. It talks about the big scary stuff. But hopefully it can because it's all right. It's going to be okay. There's still joy to be found. It's common knowledge that I was at Paula Grady's funeral.

He's one of my dearest friends. I'm so sorry. And honestly, it was the most joyous funeral. It was full of love and joy and laughter and tears and everything. And it was, I came back and I came home and I said to the family, that was one of the best things I've ever been to. Funerals should be great. And it's not, I often get a lot of families.

I've got a visit coming up Friday. I've got one coming, I've got a funeral. Because in the middle of all this crazy book promo stuff. In fact, I was on Zoe's show, I was on Zoe Ball's show yesterday. And my phone flashed up while I was on, while I was on air. And it was the funeral director, my funeral director, John Pinder, going, can you do a funeral next week for me? And I thought, I'm really busy, I really. And I thought, yeah, I'm going to say yes to that, actually.

Because in the middle of all this silliness, it's not silliness, but in the middle of all this kind of celebrity stuff, It's really important that every now and again, I just go, come on, do a funeral. It's good for you. And I think what happens is I go and see families and they go, oh, we're having bright colours and we want it to be a celebration of life. And I totally get that. I totally get that. But then what we have to be really careful of is that we're not anesthetising our grief and we're not allowing ourselves to be sad. But it's perfectly possible to be joyful and wear bright colors and have a celebration.

But actually, my friend's dead. Yeah. And that's really hard. Yeah. I completely and utterly agree. And the more we all talk about all of these things, then it becomes more accessible and more okay. You know, because people, films aren't real life.

No. No, they're not. They're not real life. And that's what, I mean, one of the things about the book is I say, I hope to be a curator of faith conversations. That's my job, is to go, okay, you don't speak the religion language. That's cool.

You don't know what, you don't want any of that bit. But perhaps we can offer some other things because, you know, it happens all the time. Wedding couples come to me. Funeral families go, well, we're not really a religious family. We're not really... It's all right. It's okay.

You can have some of this stuff if it's helpful for you. You don't need to feel guilty or bad? And people feel terribly guilty, don't they? They go, oh, I can't remember last time I was in church. And you're like, it's okay. You know, the stuff of holiness and the stuff of spirituality. You don't have to go to church or to synagogue or to temple. I mean, all that stuff helps, of course, if it helps, you know, I often think, I had a lady in one of my community who's very lonely.

She went, I'm really, I went to come to church. She went, I'm not religious. I said, yeah, but they'll be singing in biscuits. Why wouldn't you want to come? And she's like, yeah, but don't, I need to believe, no. If you leave. Did she come? Yeah, she did. Oh, lovely.

She did. Oh, lovely. She got herself on a road to. She had a lovely time. Oh, fantastic. And I just think, actually, that's the job, isn't it? We've become kind of closed-dosed institutions religions where it's like if you don't sign on the dotted line

and believe all of it, then you're not a part of this. And I just, I'm not into that really. I think if it's helpful for you, it's helpful for you. And hopefully that's what the book is. Of course it is. You know, and I love it when the quotes came in for the book. It's so much fun. Because the first two quotes that came in were from former Archbishop of Canterbury,

Dr Rowan Williams. I'm in how. Excuse me. Brightest man on the planet. It's like a poet, a theologian, is an Oxford professor, is incredible. And Sue Pollard. And I was like, that sums up the book. That sums it up.

Rowan Williams, Sue Pollard. And everybody who wants to access anything that goes, actually, I had someone the other day who said, people also say to me, I wish I could believe. I wish I could believe. Or they say, when were you so certain that God exists? And I always want to go, hopefully any day now. Yeah. Hopefully any day now, I'll be certain.

it's not called sure, is it? It's called faith. And it's nuanced and beautiful and complicated and difficult and frustrating. But it's added something to my life. And I think that at its best, it can bring joy and it can make this crazy existence a little easier to bear. As does lasagna. Always helps.

That could easily be stew or, you know, matzo bowl soup. It could be anything, you know. It could be anything that your thing is, but just that nourishment, and that's what the book is, it's about nourishment. It's about going food always helps at everything, you know. And it's this idea that if in down, feed someone, whether that's literally or metaphorically. My grand always used to say as well that it's harder for people to argue if they're chewing. If they're eating something, they can't argue with each other.

So just feed people. Unless it's crisp. And apples, then they're out of here. Kate, you are truly a joy. Thank you. Thank you. You know,