That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Rob Rinder

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

Rob Rinder - barrister, author, TV presenter and more - joins Gaby for a good ole natter about all things joyful.They discuss his new book (which is based on a real-life case he defended), his amazing documentaries (his passion projects) - and - his friendship with Rylan.Liz Hurley's boobs are also featured, as is The Queen Mother (but not in the same story!)We hope you enjoy this little bit of sunshine - and remember, you can watch all our episode on our YouTube channel, where you'll also get bonus content every Friday! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sunday Times best-selling author, television presenter, conductor, presenter, actor, because you've done pantos and we'll do that. That's not going to do that. We do that. No, we're going to do that. No, we're going there. You can do the BAFTA because my mum might be listening. Bafter winner. Winner, wonderful son, unbelievable friend and a barrister. So when you were little and you made a little list of things that you wanted to do when you were grown up.

Yeah. Were any of those things on that list? I don't know. I can't remember because I've so invented my childhood. You know, as I got older, I reimagined what I was like as a child and what I imagined I would do. I don't know.

Is it weird? I wonder if your listeners feel like this, Gabby, I feel every time you say anything good or I guess all of those things have got a social cash shape. Oh, well done, clap, clap. I feel this sort of internal sense. Oh, cringe.

Say something. Yeah, because you don't like being paid a compliment. I've known you for a very long time. And even when we go out as friends away from it all, if I say anything nice to you, your body just go do, do that. I don't trust it. But trust me, you are a very truly wonderful human being.

That's very, very sweet. But you're all of those things I just listed as well. I have done those things, yes, but, you know, some of them to... You've won a BAFTA. That's true. I do it. Thank you very much. Right, you've won a BAFTA. Also, can we just say something else? I feel like people should know that there's this other curious element

about this dynamic of me sitting here with you, which is that, you know, I've never really been impressed necessarily with the guy who can't become famous people. You know, over the years, some of my friends from uni went on to become mega-famous. And even the ones that are super Hollywood or, you know, perhaps very important human rights barristers. Lovely, but they're either colleagues or once you've met an actor, you know, after the initial flush of recognition, what do you talk about? But the people that were famous when you were a kid, especially where I grew up, in television, it never gets old when you see them.

You never get unimpressed or unexcited or feel like you walked away. You're working with Liz Hurley. I carried a watermelon. I like, okay, big breakfast. I used to get up. I'm watch you. I'm sorry, it's not about you, but I've got to share it. Every time I see you or you have an encounter, I am like a young teenager about to go to school.

It doesn't matter how nice or kind or thoughtful or how deep our friendship, becomes there is always an element and anybody that's watched dirty dancing will understand this where I walk away thinking, bloody hell I carried a water well. Did I do well? Oh my goodness. It's the same.

Listen, don't get over excited. It was the same when I met Zamo McGuire. Yes, from Grain Chill. Grain Chill. Yeah. I loved Grain Chil. Yeah, you get it. Well, thank you.

But now I'm normal again because I'm having a gin and tonic. I love the having a gin and tonic. But your life is extraordinary. We've had that conversation in real life. where you've said to me, this is extraordinary. I mean, the barrister bit we are going to talk about, because that's important, because that's sort of at the root of everything that you are,

that you do, that you feel. You're a very fair person. We've had some very deep conversations about good people and bad people and all sorts of things. But I'm going, you're a very fair person. So all of those things that you do are all, you always, you do weigh things up very carefully. I try to be.

I guess when you talk about them, things that I've been able to do in the buffet of life. You know, it feels like some of it is food that's been cooked by me and earned. You know, being embarrassed, a huge amount of investment and work. And the documentaries I make similarly, there's a great deal of capital that goes into, albeit as a community, but there's a sense of ownership and the books, etc. And some of it you get to do just because you're famous, you know. And so the conduct...

Panto. Exactly so, although that was fun. That was absolutely heaven. And what joy that is to delight in, you know, just being able to give people tawdry escapism around Christmas in this or uniquely British wear. Blumen love it. But leaving that aside, things like, as I say, conducting and a lot of... That, I mean, you look, I did. There's some footage on your Instagram of you conducting. And because I know you well, there's this look that you do. It actually makes me want to get emotional, but you look over your right shoulder

and they'll look in your eyes is pure joy. Oh, it's spiritual sex. I mean, I have no good at it, really, and I started doing music properly, really, in lockdowns, so only five years ago. And an orchestra, who I love, or I invited me to be their present. And I want, as many people, when I love something, I want...

Ryland said this in our first grand tour. You know, he described it as me, being a selfish lover. When I love something, I want, it matters to me that everybody else comes and enjoys, it delights on it too, especially if it's the type of thing that has been put on the list of things or the bookshelf beyond people's fingertips, it's been told that, people have been told it's not what they might love. And that usually is, inverted commas, the great art and great classical music or opera, whatever. You know, that's especially true of our country, where class is a thing in a much more gatekeeping way than it is in other countries.

And so I guess I got the chance to conduct, albeit only do little bits and pieces. But if you get the chance to do it and, you know, brilliant conductors are in a moment, excuse me, they are pulsing with the orchestra there, speaking to the, them through this human connection that's impossible to describe, but whatever your faith or none, there's this uniquely human element to it, which is truly magical. Now, the great conductors can keep that going, that connection for a whole symphony. In my case, I can do it for about, well, maybe three minutes, sometimes a few seconds, you know, that says a great deal about another.

But when that happens, you know, I'll have. words when, because no, you're not speaking to an orchestra, you're looking at the score, and there's a moment where you might just have something you're inviting, perhaps the clarinet to do, or the violins, but there's a sound that's in your head and you are shaping a sound that becomes a colour and everybody simultaneously knows exactly, exactly what you're asking of them, even though you're not speaking. It's deep form of spiritual telepathy. And boy, is that connection incredible. I keep you to that word connection. I've been told that that's similar when one has great sex, you know, where you are doing more than just the physical act,

there's this other complexion to it, which is so powerful. And when you get into that groove and that zone, you just want it more and more and more. And that's the stuff of great conducting, which I can't do, but for those few seconds, boy, is there a delicious sense of musical climax? Are you like that with your writing as well? No. You're not? No.

And I talk about this a lot. I think that with my... It depends on what type of writing. So I can write prose very, very easily. You know, I've done a lot of history documentaries where people can go and look at written work that I'll do in support of it. So, for example, I went with Philip. Langley, who was the

brilliant historian who found the princes in the tower, and I supported Hoarek. On Channel 5? No, that one was on Channel 4. Oh, that's the channel 4. Yeah, it was the last year. But one that's coming out with Fern Riddell, who's an incredible historian, who's got a book called Victoria's Secret. What was our relationship with John Brown?

Like, very interesting. And what I do is hopefully empower this historian to, much like the music, much like the books, to invite people to come in. You know, people tell you that you're one thing, that you are perhaps not interested in history, or perhaps you've been told that you're not intelligent enough, or this isn't your thing, and all of that is BS. And what I hope any program I'm part of just reminds people that they are not one thing

and empowers them to remember that they're cleverest selves, of which most people truly have a thirst to be. And what I do with these historians is just do that, read their history book, go, you know. You're being generous because you're sharing this with everything. Yeah, but I love tea. This is what I say. It's just sharing. When I think something's great, I can't, it's not enough that it's just for me. It's like, come and have a go. Look at this. You know, and also, just to be clear, I'm not the type of person that loves a film. You know, you're a date, and you get the date round, and you know, you might love a film or love a piece of music, and you put it on and then you're watching them, watching it. And you know,

I don't think I can shag them, frankly, if they don't love this piece of music. I'm not doing that. I never want people to have. in an authentic reaction, I just want people to come and have a go. And actually it's much more powerful and honest and beautiful when they have gone in, being culturally curious enough and open enough

to have a go or listen or watch and what do I go, do like it? That's fine, as long as it's honest, but they had a go. But that's where you and Ryland do. I mean, that's... That's true. I mean, that's incredible.

But with the writing, I can write prose very, very quickly and, you know, I've written a textbook and I enjoyed doing that. But in the fiction, the initial plan was to write a book about three cases I did, which resulted in acquittals, but where all of the defendants had actually committed the crime. And it was really about the fact that they had defences in two of the cases, and in the first book, well, and in one of the cases I had to, well, I couldn't continue with the case because I was ethically compromised and that person was acquitted, despite him.

having committed the offence, a very awful offence. So these three cases, and I went in to the publishers and just assumed they'd be thrilled about the book, which is about how class affects people experience with the justice system. I mean, that's an intellectual and maybe some other mic drop. They'll be keen. Anyway, have you ever seen Charlie Brooker's screen wipe? Do you remember years ago?

And you see that thing about what happens in TV pitches, where it's like a three-minute explainer about the world, and you go in with this great high-minded idea that you want to make a documentary like Claude Landsman's shower or some other very important piece of documentary work and by the time it's gone around the table of TV executives it comes out as topless darts.

You get this how to tell you. Not dissimilar from that. I went in and I went, oh, you should do a who-done it. And so all three of those subplots still exist in the first three novels but the overarching plots of the books which are whodunnits are very proud of and they're fun and entertaining, to be sure, I hope.

But they're much harder to write because they're not the music that I have talent for. Do you remember Christopher Hitchens? Yes. I mean, I've voiced that I think is so missed. He used to hang out with Martin Amis and Salman Rushdie and James Felton. Imagine those conversations. What a crowd. And we know about some of those conversations.

He was once asked, you know, he had these incredibly successful books of poetic prose and he had a very strong political philosophy. Why did you never do the thing of writing like your great hero, Orwell through fiction, you know, sharing some of your, let's say, philosophical thoughts about the world through fictional characters. And without missing a beat, he said, ah, I don't have the musical ear. And I was like, I get you. But you do. I struggle with that. And I, you know, I struggle with that.

But the other work I don't struggle with, you know, making documentaries and... And you've made some unbelievable, I mean, extraordinarily personal and... and life-changing and thought-provoking documentaries. You've done light stuff as well. You've done the fun stuff, you've done all of that. But I know that the documentaries mean everything to you. Yeah, they do. They come from in really deep inside.

They really do. I really love that. I love... You know, it's really interesting. Sitting with you, I'd feel conscious in any other company talking about, excuse me, using the word love. It feels so I'm going to choose love. hoodie and before we start her, oh, maybe I should take it off.

The word love is I think that's one of the few words. What's that like him used to sing its song? Love is something you've given away. You end up having more. But at the same time, if it's overused, I always wonder whether or not it becomes diluted. We lose its power.

But actually, when I'm with you, I don't feel embarrassed saying I love something. Good. I'm pleased. Yeah, I really love them. And what I mean by love is that, you know, you get up in the morning, whatever else is going on, whatever the emotional weather, somehow the clouds disappear and you're really invested in the community that make the work.

So I really do love them. And at their heart, in the collective tissue between all of them, is it's just a form of teaching or of pointing or of going, oi, wherever you are, whoever you are, whatever background, have a listen. But also, a lot of it, we have. to keep talking about. Because if we don't talk about it, it's just going to disappear into

and in the books. Someone's going to read it and they won't hear, they won't feel what you have shared. And it's really important you do those documentaries. In the same way, and it might sound flippant, but in the same way that the other things

that you do that are fun and that are enjoyable. I mean, there's a whole, there's so many layers to you and Rylan's show. It really, it's multi-layered, and we're going to get there in a minute because of something that I read that Rylan said about you and I want to check if that's

true. But all of those things, the fun as well, I always get from you that it comes from the heart. Do you ever say no if you don't want to do something? Are you able to say no? Oh yeah. See, that's really empowering. It's taken me a really long time. What an important word you just used. No, it's such an empowering word. It really is. In the early days, you know, it was so I felt and continue to feel so obscenely lucky that I get to do this stuff. I mean, you know, why me it's absurd, right? It's not absurd. No, it's not absurd.

You're a very fair good man. To be sure, I'm not going to agree with that, but what I will accept is that, there are moments where I think, oh, this is good and sometimes I don't. But nevertheless, there are also incredible other people out there. Many of whom will be listening, think I'd like to do that, and they'd probably be great. And there's a huge element of luck that was involved. Certainly how I ended up on telling you the first place was luck, right?

People might not know that story. That's actually, it's quite... Yeah, well, hopefully we'll come back, but it was luck. And also coincided with a moment in my career as a barrister. I was doing very high-profile, important work, defending in very challenging cases involving murders and terrorism and people trafficking and prosecuting big global corruption cases. And I was miserable and life turned on a dime.

And now, look, this... range of things I've got to do. And why I say, you know, it feels slightly challenging to think, well, I mean, that I'm good at it, is that I'm good at some of it. And, you know, lots of other people would be, would be too. That's, that's, that, again, you're being very generous. You're being generous to other. And I think it's unfair that a lot of people don't get a chance to do those things. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, I, and I, I agree. We're, we're in a very privileged, very lucky position. Can I ask you about the Ryland thing? Ask you anything.

Ryland, in the papers yesterday. There was a day in the life of one of them. Yeah, and it said that everyone wants to know if it's true that you, that you and he are the first people that you speak to every single day. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, and he said, I haven't spoken to him yet, but we speak every day. Speak often. I mean, he's a...

Your friendship is really... Oh, no, it's real. Real. I mean, it comes together in a much more constant. fashion when we're working, when we go... Everybody wants to think you're going out with each other. It's so bizarre. You know, what's really terrifying, love,

is that people generate AI deepfakes about us getting married. And the pictures are so... I hate those AI deepfakes. They're very frightening. They're really frightening. But, I mean, also, I mean, what's...

I think I heard that somebody had cut and pasted me into the actual pictures of Ryland's first one. wedding. What? It's so funny. Isn't it interesting? I find it really fascinating

that people don't sit comfortably with the idea that you can have absolutely non-sexual platonic love. Well, I find it really weird. But it seems to be that as a gay couple they seem to find it strange.

I can say to my girlfriends, I can say love you, which I do to all my girlfriends. We always type it and if we're messaging each other, How are you today? Love you, how you do, you know, those sort of things. Nobody bats an eyelid. But if two men, men are obviously, straight men, gay men, whatever. Straight men say that switch. They go, oh no, you can't say that to me.

Well, but then I guess that's true. And there is that assumption. And self-evidently, I can understand why. But I wonder, you know, if you had a really close botanic friendship with a straight guy, you know, how comfortably that would sit socially, you know, or what the assumptions people would make. you know, there's a complexion that it's just sort of... But I do love my friends and my family. You know, and we're very, very blessed to have, you know, both of us have very dear, dear friends. And you've got... That's my most important thing.

Yeah, same. I just, I totally, totally agree with you. Let's go back to the book that's out. Yeah. Sunday Times bestselling author, again. Is that slightly surreal as well? It's really nice. I really like that people...

read and delight in the books. And there's two kind of aspects to the protest, which is the book that's out. There's a subplot, which was based on a real case I did. It was, I represented a British soldier who was accused of killing an Iraqi luteur in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. And it's really a story that asks a question about who's really responsible. Was he and his fellow soldiers who weren't adequately trained to say the very least to try and peacekeep in absolute chaos. This is before smartphones, etc. And all of the higher-ups are sending telegraphs back home going, you know, look, there's looting going on. We're under an international legal obligation to rebuild the place. That's what we have to do in law. It's total and

utter anarchy and what do we do. And they were doing things which were clearly dangerous. They did something dangerous resulting in the death of a boy. Absolute tragedy. They were held accountable and put on trial. Yet the people who made the initial decisions, the people who planned for how these young boys, what they are, 1819, was supposed to behave in this theatre of war, that's what we call it, weren't given adequate training. And yet somehow people with more power were never held to account, and that's true today, as it was there. As it was there, So it invites us to ask those questions in a serious way. And of course, the main plot is about a very famous artist who was killed by, you know,

I'm doing this, I'm using a spray can, a protester who kills him using a spray can. And again, I mean, it's interesting, and we go in behind the scenes of the art world, and there's lots of fun to be had there, but it asks that question, what is justice? And at the end, is it very satisfying? and it kind of lifts the lid as far as possible on the world of the bar. You know, it's called the velvet drain pipe because it used to be

you'd go from an Oxford college straight into one of the ins of courts, which if you go and have a look, they're still there today. Haven't really changed architecturally and in many ways in practice, you know, since the 19th century. And for you, when you write all of these books and congratulations on all of them. But when you write these books,

is that the... This is a strange question. Is it the barrister writing it? Is it the television presenter writing it? Which is it the musician? And I just want you to just think about that because you're all of those. The subplot. The subplots are the barrister.

So is that. And the courtroom scenes are absolutely the barrister and the big challenge. And I have enormous help with my editors, say the least, making the thing fun. Because, you know, these are lovely encounters. I try to keep it light and on the telly, you know, if I'm doing a program about the Great Plague, Obviously, I wanted to be fun, and I teach young kids. I used to do that in lockdown. But I do have a tendency to kind of be doer.

And after a while, my friends are like, this is very interesting, but I only asked one question. Recently, I was climbing in Morocco with my friend. And the night before we were due to Summit to Cal, I gave her a, she'll be listening to this. Hi, Sarah, an hour and a half lecture of the history of the American Supreme Court. I think she only asked one question.

You could hear, you know, I was sort of, anyway. the barrister gets very obsessed with process, you know, and I want people to kind of understand that lots of trials are boring, you know, you're dealing with technical evidence, and I'll go, no, no, you know, look, we need to make sure that there's a bad character application here and so on or so, and I'll write the bad character application

and the editor-write-backer, and nobody cares. And the tension between the person that wants to do entertainment, which is what these books are, what's entertainment versus educating is a big one. That's why I don't really focus on the books as much as a documentary. So for you with the, do you feel that pull between the, and this word, you and I have a mutual friend who we're both unbelievably proud of. In fact, my heart is so full of love for him, as you know, Robbie.

And Rob is an entertainer. Incredible, but also very serious. He's a brilliant entertainer and he's a dear, good, good, good man. But I'm going to say something that's going to throw you, but I think that you are also an entertainer. And I think Rob would probably say the same. I don't know. But to me, you're an entertainer.

A barrister, and the real meaning of the word entertainer, not just yattatatatat, just hands. But you are an entertainer. You know how to entertain. I don't think there's a problem with that. It doesn't sit uncomfortably. I feel like I'll take that, you know, as a compliment. and I guess I wonder how I kind of deploy that entertaining.

What do you use it for? You know, the best teachers we ever had, you're the ones that you keep coming out to this word, connect to you. Do you remember the ones that were really entertaining somehow? And they could have... They captivated you. Right. They could have a variety of different characters. Sometimes they're super strict but get them into their sweet spot on what they're teaching.

And that entertainment could be do. I mean, remember Sister Wendy, who... She was fantastic. Go and have a look at her on YouTube. Incredible art criticism from this nun who was a praying nun, who lived in a copse for the last 20 years of her life in Norwich, but put her in front of a great piece of art or not and have her explain it, and it's just entertaining.

The thing that I hope is whatever I'm talking about, whether it's deeply serious or not, that it is entertaining, an entertaining meaning that somehow, how it's going to entertain your sense of emotional, spiritual and cultural curiosity. If it's not that, then, you know, the opposite of entertaining is to engender indifference. I want to achieve the other. I'm so pleased. The end of Rob's film, Better Man, which is brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

I went for a walk after that. Just, yeah. I remember telling me about it. You know, I don't necessarily have the most artistic vision. And I remember thinking, I think you might have lost it. So, you know, I'm going to be a monkey. I was like, okay. This feels a bit strange.

Also, I'm not sure if it's not problematic anyway. I didn't think much of it. And then, of course, the Premier, I went to the Premier. And I was absolutely bold over by how beautiful the work is. Well, at the end of it and everything that he's been through, and everybody knows. There's no secret. I've known him since he was 16.

Of course, you know. And he says at the very end, that's it. I'm an entertainer with all of the thing, all of the stuff, which is now out there and everybody knows. So with you as well, with all of the stuff, you are an entertainer. And it's funny, I was thinking that on the way here today and I thought, I don't know how Rob and Rob, how Rob Rinder will take me looking at him in the eye and saying, you're an entertainer. That's lovely. I think about six months ago or someone else, I'd have been more troubled. by that subrichet, you know, that accusation.

I would have, or you're putting that to me, that's very baristerial, Ms. Rossin. I think that, because I guess where I would feel vulnerable is where somebody would perhaps say, I'm not very serious or shallow. Oh, there's nothing shallow about you. No, no, that's fine. But you can be very serious. To be sure. Yeah.

And also, yeah. No, of course. And you tackle some very serious. very, very serious. Right, but the worry would be saying your antenna means that... Right. But where I go when you say that is firstly, well, that's great because it's the opposite of the difference, but also my great hero, you know, the person who I looked to from the past,

whose work and his little portrait I've got above my piano is Leonard Bernstein, who are probably the most important kind of musical forces of the 20th century. I know, don't write in, there'll be others. Yeah, the Beatles who he loved. But Westside story, but also great... The greatest musical ever written. To be sure. But also how he cared about bringing people into complex casket music.

And he did these children's concerts, right, from the 60s, in the 60s. You can watch them now. He's dealing with the most challenging, deep and complex issues or, excuse me, aspects of music. And they are so entertaining. And he will talk to you about some... really deep bit of Beethoven and be using examples from

Bach to the Beatles from like Plath to Proust and yet at the same time these children are watching on mesmerized and changed and that's who I... But that's what you have okay that's what you have and and you're extraordinary with young people as well and you passionately care about making their lives better

Rob you just take that every so often just take it I'm in I'm in the thing that make The thing that makes me happiest, like genuinely. Okay, what makes you happiest? Oh, yeah, in work, I can say that, and I hope, in fact, I know there are people out there that, well, when I've had a mentorie, and I can think of a few of them now, or you work with a young producer or whoever, and you see them empowered and coming to life, and then maybe you see them perhaps a few years later, and they've found the complete. completion of everything that they wanted, or just somehow something that you might have said maybe opened a door that they otherwise wouldn't have knocked at and maybe have gone through.

That's the stuff. The rest is kind of like detail, really, but those are things that, if I were to shuffle off this mortal coil and be at the celestial court and try and persuade someone to give me a cloud of the sea view. If they asked me what the thing I was most proud of, it would definitely be those moments and those people. Oh, how wonderful. How wonderful. You, you, um, you, you, you are an extraordinary person and a very dear, beautiful friend and you have the kindest soul. Thank you for being on this and congratulations on all of it. Oh, no, there's heaven. The TV shows, the books. Are we going to

talk about Elizabeth Hurley's boobies? Shall we talk about, okay, let's end it with Elizabeth Hurley, yes. I can't wait for this show. You and Elizabeth Hurley is possibly the campus thing ever. It's beyond. Oh. You know, the thing is... The inheritance. The inheritance, yeah. So people... It's made by the same people who make traitors

and race around the world and squid games and they're really good at what they do. But in the world of documentary making, it's about four people. So I kind of know if it's what's going on. And I guess I know whether or not it's working, etc. Here... How many people? Yeah, sometimes two. Yeah, is that what you're saying?

No, no. I'm going to wait to hear what you say for the inheritance. Well, there's just tons of bits. It was a massive program. And I just didn't really have a clue what was going on. But I do like the concept of the program. I'm fascinated by it. And all I'll say is that it resulted in an outcome that I found both really moving and really surprising. And I don't want to give it away, but the person who ended up winning the program.

No spoilers. All I'm not going to spoil. Just all I'll say is that they were incredibly surprising and said something that I found. enormously moving. Even now as I'm sitting here, it really surprised me. But when Elizabeth Hurley and I met, and she is just magnificent,

she's everything a young gay boy wanted to marry before they realised that they'd have to do geography that they weren't necessarily interested in. I mean, it was a bit like my mum would never let me have a pink my little pony. You always say this is, I just, I still got to buy you one. You haven't got me, so there are my pink my little pony is that you get finally an adult life

and you're stuck, you don't want to do. Oh my god, it's a pink my little pony. And this was pink my adult pony, only the kind of lady divergent. This is Liz Hurley is the sparkly pinkest one. Oh, my word. And she also has all of that delicious. She's naughty.

She's naughty. But then she comes from a sort of a category of humans that are long disappeared, but who I read and long to exist, from Dorothy Parker to all of the mit. foot, people who spiritually smoke and sort of go and say cutting things because there's no social consequence. You know, it's like that last vestige of delicious aristocracy. That's what I love. You know, so I went up to her and I said hello and she was wearing this some kind of gold

magnificence, the one that there's a picture of me standing next to her in the coffin. And I spoke to her about four minutes. I had my chat prepped because I knew it wasn't going to go initially well. I don't do well with first encounter, especially with something as camp as that. So I started talking. Are you talking to my breasts? I had nowhere to go because they were there. So I said, yes, actually, Elizabeth I am.

And, you know, it would be absurd not to because they're there. What are you supposed to do? Yes. You know, are you looking at the Alps? You know, no. But I can hear her saying that and I can see you looking at them and then friendship. I imagine the two of you getting on unbelievably well.

We haven't spent enough time together yet because I was her executive and actually taking the show very seriously as you could imagine, as entertaining but also serious. So not yet, but you never know. What I will say, and this is really interesting both she and Damien who I met her son.

Gosh, he's beautiful. He's beautiful. I think what's really interesting as well is when people ask you about them, they have the most beautiful manners. And you talk about being kind and I think sometimes that's work but manners are really important.

In other words, and I don't always get this right, I'm sure, I'm sure, you know, but leaving somebody feeling happier than when you found them. You know, the late Queen. Oh, all for that. The late Queen mum was once having dinner with some rude Americans as they were described

and God knows how they got in, perhaps they wanted a raffle. and they said, oh, your majesty and I was like, sort of panicked all the equities were ready to pounce and have these people removed. Why do you think the most important thing

is bringing up children? I mean, bad accident, we get the point. And everybody was sort of horrified that somebody had spoken to the Queen Mother and she paused her a second without missing of me. She said, I think it's manners. And yeah, that's the thing.

I saw... I agree, this happened on the other day. This happened the other day. I'm going to show me that. I was on the... on the train, on the tube. And there were lots of young men from 16 to 40 sitting down.

And I got up because I saw an elderly lady get on. I said, would you like my seat? And she said, thank you very much. And there were two elderly gentlemen. And then the next stop, there was another elderly woman with walking sticks. So I just went up and I said, excuse me, would you mind giving your seat to this lady?

And I was expecting them. And they went, oh, yeah, of course. And so then I asked the next one, because there were two men. Yes, of course. Then I asked the last guy who was, I'd say probably nearly 40. And I said, would you mind give you? I'm really sorry. And he said, but it's nothing to do with you.

I said, I know it's not, but it would be really nice because this guy, he's standing there. And I think he would really appreciate it. He said, well, it's nothing to do with you. But yeah, if you want me to. I said, no, do you want to? He said, no, I don't. I went, okay, then don't do it. And then he sat there and everyone's eyes were on him.

But he then got up and he gave the seat. And then he said to me, he said, I'm really sorry. It was a really bad reaction of mine. And then he said to the man again, I'm really sorry. And then I was talking to these young men who'd all stood up. And I said, I wasn't trying to be bullish or anything. I just thought it would be a nice thing to do. And the youngest of them said, nobody's ever taught me that before.

And they would, but we had a lovely conversation. So nice. And I thought the last one was going to get angry. But they didn't know. And actually, it was just polite. And they were being nice. But they weren't being rude. So you just need to, manners need to be taught.

Don't you find it, I mean, obviously I've become, because I'm a late adopter of, you know, these social media platforms. But don't you find it so moving when people put on content of people just doing spontaneously kind things? Absolutely. Be kind. Be kind. There's so many dark things going. on. Be kind. You are very kind.

But it is everywhere. It's everywhere. Kindness. Yes. Kindness. You know, we live in an algorithm as human, it's not new, by the way, it's not necessary. In fact, it's not social media. Way before, from the invention of the printing press, if it bled it led,

that's the stuff, it's true of plays. It's why so much of Shakespeare's dark. I'm just thinking about this sort of, as I'm sitting here with you now, Kit Marlow, I mean, or John Webster, I mean, the Duchess of Malfi, I mean, bloody hell, they give that to people at kids in A level. I mean, it's, you know, it's basically the theatrical form of a video nasty.

And yet we're wedded to the darkness of humankind in plays and in newspapers and consequently writ-larged and now amplified. So it's in our bedrooms on social media. What we forget is all of the good stuff that people do every single day. Absolutely. And I know you're so focused on this, but I think that's why when we see it, And it's everywhere. But if we search it out, it touches us so deeply

that it immediately reaches into whatever we call it. For me, it's a soul because I'm a person of faith. And it makes us cry. Yeah, I think it. But it is, like you say, I think we all need to be reminded that it's there and it is everywhere. And there are good people and there are kind people and they're generous people.

They're warm. They're joyful. Mostly, I would say. I mean, genuinely mostly. But we get fed the darkness. Mostly have a conversation with somebody. Ask them the five good things they're proud of and they'll tell you something incredible.

It's just true of nearly every encounter. If the tragedy is we have to look for it. Talk to people. I saw just really quickly, again, it must have been because I've become addicted. I need to work on it like anybody else. I am totally wedded to the dopamine hits of social media. Read T.J. Powers book.

He's been honest. Oh, I will do. But really, really quickly, I saw Catherine, Princess of Wales, or Kate. She was walking in. I don't know how it ended up in my algorithm. My algorithm is quite a boring one, you know. And it was her.

She was walking in somewhere with... It's Prince George, isn't it? And Will, like I know him, like, we're mates, you know. Anyway... He's on the phone now. You know everyone. I mean, if there is a global conspiracy, you're at the centre of it. I mean, your phone roller decks is everybody.

Basically, who did it? I mean, who's responsible for whatever going on? Gabby Rosal. Anyway, point is. She walks into this thing, and it looks like Jordan's wearing a little suit, and he's a little bit hot, and he just says, I'm hot. And very sweetly, William, pretty soon, who says something about, oh, are you?

And is quite sort of worried and does the fathery thing. And you could tell Kate was too, and she would undoubtedly, as a mum, sort of say, look, if you're too hot, take it off. But her first impulse, and I hope people find this clip, was to say, yes, yes, George, the young one is to do it, yes, George, but now let's think about, I mean, without missing a beat, now let's think about the people who have been waiting for us in the hot sun to see you, to see us. I just thought, wow, like, you want to know why she gets it, right? Yeah. Like, first think about others. I thought, I was such a, you know, I've never

really thought about the Royal Family. I don't necessarily like anybody else, but boy is that the stuff. Anyway. Yeah, but you know what? Do you know, I absolutely agree with you, but always you think of others, look after yourself. And I want you to look after yourself as well

because you're very important to me and to many other people. But all of those things and there are good kind people out there and I love that you ended this podcast with us. It was heaven. Thank you.