That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Russell T Davies

Episode Date: February 15, 2021

In this episode Gaby chats to screenwriter Russell T Davies who created some of the most watchable British TV shows of the last three decades. He discusses the success of bringing back ‘Doctor Who�� the ground-breaking ‘Queer As Folk’, ‘A Very English Scandal’ starring Hugh Grant and Ben Whishaw, ‘Years and Years’ starring Emma Thompson, and Channel 4’s biggest ever box set launch which is available to watch now called ‘It’s a Sin’. He talks about working with Kate Winslet on her first acting job, casting Billie Piper in ‘Doctor Who’ and how his instincts told him to turn down the chance to work with Star Wars genius George Lucas. So many fascinating tales not to be missed in this episode.  Produced by Cameo Productions, music by Beth Macari.  Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter @gabyroslin #thatgabyroslinpodcast For more information on the sponsors of this episode: Grass and Co. - Find your calm 25% OFF, plus free shipping at: www.grassandco.com/GABYUse discount code: GABY at checkout.LinkedIn Jobs - to post a job for free visit www.linkedin.com/GABY Terms and conditions apply. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Thank you so much for tuning in to that Gabby Roslyn podcast. Russell T. Davis is one of the most talented souls around. He's created the most watchable television and was the person who brought back Doctor Who. He wrote The Groundbreaking Queer's Folk, A Very English Scandal, starring Hugh Grant and Ben Wishaw, years and years starring Emma Thompson, and Channel 4's biggest ever box set launch, which is available to watch now called It's a Sin.

It is hands down the best television program I have ever seen. I think it is outstanding, it's remarkable. We of course talk about all of those shows, working with pop stars, and how his instincts told him to turn down the chance to work with Star Wars genius George Lucas. So many fascinating tales in this episode. Enjoy. And I love you so. People ask me how. How I've lived till now

I tell them I don't know Hello darling Oh you've made my day Singing mood Oh let's sing Let's just keep singing Lovely lovely Russell The man I see I think if we were to go up

In a competition About who loved Telly Moore Who do you think would win You or me I'd wrestle you to the ground I'd wrestle you to the ground I would win I would come up with trivia

I would remember shows such as Leslie Joseph's Rumble No one remembers that show Leslie Joseph made a show but she was a wrestling manager called Rumble it somehow slid off the mind

of the entire country She was a wrestling manager A wrestling manager This went out on Saturday nights In prime time When was this? Was it in the 80s? Now let me think

Let me think Mid-90s Yeah mid-90s I would say It's weird because I mean I love Leslie Joseph It was a terrible show And you know like

terrible shows normally remembered as to help a shows, they're fated and celebrated. We'd sit here hooting about it. This was so bad. It vanished. It vanished from the mind. That is incredible. You see, because I thought, it's very funny, because you know, whenever you're asked to go, and I won't do it, I say no every time to mastermind. And they say, what would you talk about? And I just said, TV. And they went, yeah, yeah, but what? TV? I love TV. See, when I saw this quote from The delight that is Frank Cottrell-Boyce, what a lovely man. He says, oh my good. No, no, you're the loveliest.

You're the loveliest. Until I speak to him and then, of course, he will be. No, no, no, you really are. He says of you, the greatest contribution to British TV, because you are saving it from extinction. Do you think that TV is... Oh, bless Frank. Well, is it heading that way.

Oh, I think the BBC is right now in front of us. I don't think it is. I think, in fact, I think it's... sitting in a drama, we're in a golden age, and it's getting goldener. I mean, the amount of, you know, the amount of author-owned personal drama pieces that are being broadcast is 10 times the number that they were in the 60s. People say play for today was the height of television. We're getting serious like that almost every week now, not quite every week.

But, you know, I think it's in a glorious state. The state of the broadcasters is not so magnificent. And I do think, do you know what? kind of given up fighting. I've been saying the BBC's doom for so long, that now I'm sitting back thinking, I'll be 60 soon. I had the best of it. Well done. Bye-bye. But you're not going to stop. It's terrible. No, no, no, no. I'll keep campaigning. But, well, fuck what a good me campaigning does. But I just will sit with Gabby,

we have to sit there and remember the good old days. And they are good old days. They're right now. No, I think every, every era of television, you know, when people sit, my, me know, my husband often says, oh, it's not like those golden days. I go, no, you know what? Each era is a goal. olden era of television because probably because I love it so deeply. But, you know, going back over the things, I didn't realize,

now lots of people that listen to this will have no idea about this show. But why don't you? Was a show that told you to turn the tele off? Why don't you just switch off your television set and go out and do something less boring instead? I worked about five years. I don't think I've ever worked on a show for so long.

My first job, my very first job in television, I literally walked into a television studio at BBC Wales. the cameras, the boom mics, the gallery. Oh, and that was why don't you? And it was a program for those who don't remember. Although it ran for about 20 years, I think. It was a program presented by children.

There were no adults in it. And it was things to do in your summer holidays. And, oh, it was fun to work on. It was so lovely. And you know, the glorious thing, Gabby, you might know this, is that when you're starting out in television, you need to learn everything. And children's is fantastic for that.

Because children's television doesn't have much money So within about six months of working with the BBC, I've done studios, I've been on location, I've done film, I've done VT, I've done the dub, I've done editing. Wonderful, completely wonderful training. For me, the greatest gift, yeah, three years at college, I loved, love, loved. But then starting out in kids' telly for two years, there was nothing greater. I just learned, you learned so much through that. But did you fall in love then, or were you in love with television before that? Oh, I was before. It was like, it was my thing.

It was when everyone else was running around whatever you're doing as kids. I was just watching television. I loved it. My parents were very strangely respectful of television. They never turned it off and they let me watch anything.

I was there in the 60s watching plays, those play for todays with nudity and murder and death. And I think I was 13 years old or 12 years old watching I, Claudius, which is one of the strongest, most magnificent things,

dramas you'll ever see. And they never said, they were turning off. They never said it would go to bed or they never said, oh, that's too ad-up for it. They were very conservative in all other ways, but they had a kind of old-fashioned respect for a broadcaster. They were a BBC audience in that sense that if it was being shown, therefore it was watchable. So I watched anything and everything. I wasn't just watching ICOLI audience. I was equally watching wacky races at the same time.

Oh, how wonderful. See, I mean, hearing you talk about television, I can hear the love that you have for it. But so obviously, you know where we're going with this. We're going to Dr. Who, and I know we're leaping ahead, because we're going to go backwards and forwards. But, Doctor, Doctor, but... Who is one of those things that, because I was aware of your writing for years, and you know that I adore you. But Doctor Who sort of brought you to anybody who watched television. Suddenly everybody knew who you were because you were the man that brought back Doctor Who. So you became, I'm going to use that horrible C word celebrity, but you became a celebrity alongside the fact that you were the man that brought back Doctor Who.

It's very odd, isn't it? because as a writer, you become a writer, just basically sit at home and not see anyone. And Doctor, there was such a star maker of a show. And it literally is, you touch it and boom, you take off. And also, it's the way television is changing. And I do love the fact that we're all, there's so much behind the scenes material now,

whether it used to be on DVDs or behind the scenes programs or just talking on breakfast television or whatever, talking to you now. Then it used to be this when I was a kid. Television just had like magic. it came and it went and he never knew how it existed. Now, I like the fact that we talk about it. What I like is the fact that the job of a writer is visible now.

You can sit at home and think, oh, yes, I'll be like him. I'll be like her. I'll be like Sally Wainwright. I'll be like Paul Abbott. I'll be like Michaela Cole. And it's visible now. And that helps ambition, I think, to be seen is a great thing because it encourages children growing up to do the same thing.

So I'm all for that. It doesn't necessarily mean I was dying to shove my face on camera night and day, And the tricky thing about Doctor Who was actually, also, it's only got two lead characters who were very busy, making 13 hours of television. So they're busier than most actors are. So the demand for interviews and the demand for material was ferocious, not just me, our designers would be interviewed,

our costume designers and the directors, everyone had to kind of fill in the gap and make all this Doctor Who content by putting ourselves on camera and going yap, yap, yap. But I'm delighted for the yap, yap, yeah. But what's so amazing is that my 13-year-old loves it and will grow up with that love of Doctor Who as I had as a child. And that my dad, who's in his 80s, loves Doctor Who. And that she at 13 will sit with her grandfather in his 80s and they discuss the latest Doctor Who. You did that.

You brought generations together. Thank you, sir. Oh, Gabby. And people said it would never work. so many people queuing up to say it could never work. But I loved it as a child. Really? Did they? Oh my goodness. There was like proper research done at BBC Worldwide. Not a BBC, as you know, there's a difference. BBC worldwide at the business, commerce

side. They did a piece of research saying that... And I can see what they were coming from. Their research said, children will never want to watch something that their parents love. That sentence makes sense. You know, you kind of go, oh, right. They came out with that research. It could move like in mid-production. And oh, my heart went into my boots, thinking, oh my goodness, but it was wrong. It was wrong. And exactly the opposite happened. I remember the week before the Dalek episode, the very first Dalek episode. And there was all this excitement in the air. And I bumped it to the lovely Craig Cash. And Craig Cash said, oh, my children

are watching that. And they got so excited. And I said, oh, you don't know what a Dalek is. And they got all excited. Oh, tell us about it, Dad. And it just kind of proved that there was this game going on, this great game between parents and children that they, the children love the fact that the parents knew this mythology and and the parents love passing it on to the children. So it's lovely. What, I mean, I'll never have times like that ever again. It was absolutely gorgeous. Why does it work? Why does Doctor Who work so well? Oh, Gabby. If I knew that, I'd have one that was my own copyright. I spent all those years ago about something that the BBC owned. But, I mean, it can change. It can be, it's such a good-hearted adventure story.

And I think it works because he's got the full range of emotions. It's funny. I do think it's written to a very high level. It's one of the most intelligent series you'll ever watch because it has to pull so much. It's so unusual in that you have a lead character who could, who's so brilliant and so clever, not just as science, but art and biology and anything you want to name,

who travels around in the most powerful machine in the universe a time machine. So in theory, stories should last two minutes. He should step out to the TARDIS and go, oh, that's the Cybermen. They're invading. If you press that button, it'll stop them.

Bye-bye. That's essentially what to talk to whose story is. So actually, when he steps up the TARDIS, you kind of have to tap dance like crazy and be madly entertaining and diverting in order for the doctor not to solve the problem in two minutes. And so you come out, it has to be highly imaginative. You have to use every resource that you've got, every speck of imagination

that you've got us to be poured into 45 minutes in order to stop the lead character, bringing the drama to a close. It's very unusual. And the great, great television programs do have geniuses at their centre like that, like Sherlock, like Jane Tennyson, even like Delboy. That's an unusual name to throw in, but what an extraordinary, witty, funny character. If a show has something extraordinary at the centre like that, then it can last all these years.

Amazing. They have to have heart, don't they? And Doctor Who has heart. Oh, when I talk about writing it to your full capacity, I mean heart as well. It's not just inventing monsters and chases and explosions. It's pouring your heart into it, making people cry, making them laugh.

I think, you know, we all know, we can all name Doctor Who moments where companions leaving that leave us very sad. But often not talked about it's how witty the show is, how funny it is, how entertaining that is on a Saturday. Saturday night. It's so much fun because he's going in there and he's not a soldier. He doesn't have a job

to do. He doesn't have to answer to anyone. He's just morally sound, that's all. And within that, he loves what he does. And she loves what he does. I don't mean to exclude Jodie there. The character can be anything now. And that's just joyous. There's a joy and it's heart which makes it a joy

to work on. I think alongside James Bond, those are the two, because everybody always says, who's the next James Bond, who's the next Doctor Who. That's pretty darn something. isn't it? You know, James Bond is a huge international franchise and Doctor Who, in our eyes, because we're very protective and possessive of it, I suppose, in the UK, it's something that we all watch when we were kids here in the UK. And yet the world wants to know, and you do, I know there's huge conventions around the world, but there's something, the two characters,

they sort of go, they've got to meet. Yes, that's what you've got to do. James Bond and Doctor Who can meet. So that's what you've been. I was thinking you're about to suggest me as the next James Bond. Definitely. Yeah, but that's happening. I thought I wasn't allowed to talk about it. But go to the bookies now. Actually, Doctor Who meets James Bond, that would be.

Do you know, I'm amazed no, well, I was going to say, no children need special has ever even suggested that. But I think, I think approaching the James Bond Empire would be a bit like approaching the moon. Could you go in a slightly different orbit? Well, come on, no, come on. You're bigger than any of the broccoli, you know. Let's be honest.

In my eyes, you went to L.A. and you were offered Star Wars the TV series, weren't you? Oh, only slightly. No, I turned down a meeting to do with that. And it wasn't The Mandalorian. It was a series that George Lucas, oh, this is rude. He's like gossiping behind his back, but I've never actually met him. George Lucas set up a series before he sold the Star Wars then by. He set up his own television series. And you know what? I've got a very good instinct. And something, I have. I just have. And something told me that series will never get. get made. And it wasn't. And they wrote about 50 episodes of it. And all those episodes are sitting

on a shelf. They never got made. Then he sold Star Wars to whoever was it Fox or whatever he sold it to. And they've gone on to make their own shows. And that series never existed. Do you know, I kind of, it's funny looking back. I knew. I just thought that won't happen. Which is a strange thing to think about George Lucas, you know, because he makes things happen. Yeah, but it's because you weren't involved, you see. That's what it. Whoa. Gabby, I like the cut of your jib. Thank you. You, you know, you've been through incredibly sad stuff and you've been very open about that. Only two years ago, lovely Andrew died. But you also, you really, I get the feeling.

I'm the times I've interviewed you and the times I've met you, you enjoy life, don't you? Oh, I can be as miserable as the next one. I've got to say, but actually, yes, do you know, it's, it's, I can't, I, I, I kind of put it down to be a six-foot-six, do you know? I am six-foot-six, and that's like, now, these days, a lot of people are six-foot-six. When I was young, they weren't six foot six. Literally, generations have grown up around me, so that's quite a normal height now. But when I was 21 years old,

I would be the only person in town who was six foot six. And I just kind of realized when I was sort of late teens that when I walk in a room, people notice it. And kind of my voice goes along with that as well. It's a great, big, loud voice. And I ran about the age of 18, 19, 20. I thought, well, how would it go with it? You can either get a stoop and pretend to be shorter

and be quiet and be a mouse and sit in the corner or just be who you are. And that's a loud and big and noisy. And that kind of is a part to be just that then you start enjoying yourself. It'd be pretty weird if I was loud and big and noisy and sad. That would be an awful thing. If I can't imagine that. That doesn't really exist, does it?

I love that idea that you say you were really the only six foot six person there. Back in, honestly, I'm quite serious. I'm quite serious. and 20s, it was very, very rare, very rare. And yeah, we've just got fitter and healthier and taught. I'm not saying I was fit and healthy. I was just tall. Yeah, I love my height.

I love it. Spend all my life being able to see across a room. And, you know, I used to go to meet, I used to become soap operas. I used to think, I used to sort of sit there talking about character, and I used to sort of think, why is everyone listening to me? Everyone's listening.

You spent a lot of time in these meetings, fighting to be heard. Everyone listening. I just thought, because I'm like the size of the wall. It's not the people are listening to the wall. Were you always like that, though? Were you like that as a child? No, I suppose I grew into it.

I was also, I mean, we are many things, Gabby. And I was quite serious with what I was saying earlier about you become a writer in order to be quiet and stay at home and be, and just, it's quite a very introspective job. So maybe that's part of it as well. Most of my time is spent being actually, he's silent. I'm just here. Literally, I'm at my desk now. This is what I'm typing away. And I do work very hard.

I work very long hours. us. So maybe it's a response to that as well that once you leave the desk, go, hey, I'm three. Although, I'm not particularly sociable either. It's the most times, as you have posited already, I was sit and watch TV. Ask me to a party and I'm like, oh, God, I'd rather die.

Oh, I'm the same. Oh, my God. I get shy. Oh, a party. I haven't been to a party. When did I last go to a party? I haven't been to a party for decades. I think about 15, 16 years or something.

Marvelous. Do you say no, or you say you're busy? I do know. I used to say I was busy. I used to say it was busy. And I used to laugh at my husband, the one great thing about having a husband was very ill was that you could get out of anything.

Anything. No, he's not feeling very well. And he could be a fine form and right in front of him. I'd say, oh, I'm just a bit sick to that. And escape anything. So I've lost that excuse now. Did Ant remind you using him in that point? Oh, he loved it.

No, we loved it. We were two, no, we loved it. We were both much rather stay in than go out. Isn't that strange? We've got lovely friends. of course we are, but we'd love seeing. But no, we were kind of, we're a perfect fit in that sense. So do you think then that the parties, I mean,

because a lot of your dramas that you've written, I'm going to go back to Queer's folk as well, but it was very much about the party scene, about being out, being out and about. That's quite interesting as an introvert, I suppose, if I'm going to use that, if I can borrow that word, that as an introvert that you are, then you're writing about what's going on around you?

So you have, you wide-eyed about it all, but you just don't want to do it yourself. I suppose, yes. The Quiris folk in particular came from 10, 15 years of, I mean, I wrote that when I was 35, so it came from all those years of going out

on Canal Street and watching what was going on. I consider myself so lucky that no one else wrote to Canal Street first. I just happened to get there first, which was lucky. But also, I did used to love, I mean, obviously I loved growing up in my 20s, but I used to go out my own. and I used to love going out on my own and sometimes I'd bump into friends on Canal Street

and I'd I'd I've spent a life making excuses. I'd make up excuses to get rid of them. I'm like, oh hello! I'm just with Jim, he's over there, bye-bye. And I'd go to another club of a different bar to be on my own just because I love being on my own and watching it all. I didn't realise that, but I was kind of storing it

all in my head to go and write something about it. I literally wasn't conscious of that until it happened really. But yeah, strange man. There I am saying I'm loud did I enter a room and I take over a room and yet at the same time I want to be on my own and stand there alone. Aren't we full of contrary impulses that we are though? Yeah, completely, that I was intensely shy and yet get me up on live television.

Thank you, this is home. I'm home. Yes, isn't it strange, isn't it? And also, it's something I'm very much in the modern world now, I'm going to complain about modern days, but I think it's very fascinating that we live in a world now of biographies, everyone is a bio, everyone is a definition, And if you're 14 years old, if you're eight, you have to define yourself. You have to write your bio, if it's a simple line on Instagram, or if it's your Facebook profile. And you shouldn't write your own profile. It's so limiting.

That's when people, that's when they always walk into the Big Brother House and they say, I don't take any nonsense. I don't take any nonsense from anyone. I say what I think. I'm that kind of person. And you sit there thinking, the more you say you're that kind of person, the more you become that sort of person. And you become that sort of person. It's a real pain because, yes, you say what you think all the time.

And we're much more complicated than that. Don't give yourself a bio. Don't give yourself a profile. Especially don't give it to yourself at the age of 18 when you have no idea who you are. And I mean this socially, I mean this sexually as well on dating apps and stuff like that where people will describe, without being blunt, that be what they're into. And you sit there thinking, don't, who knows what you're into? You could be into anything.

Don't limit yourself. But we define ourselves and we bio ourselves like crazy now. And all of that gets there. And all the algorithms jump on top of that bio. So next thing you know, you're being fed adverts that fit your bio. And so that makes you fit that definition even more. And it's like, let go. Stop everyone. Stop defining yourself because you can be intensely shy and immensely gregarious at the same time when you are still the same person. We contain multitudes. We are incredibly complicated things. Oh, that was a riff. No, that was fantastic.

I went off on one then. No, I love that. I love that. And that's why you're a writer because you see that. So a lot of us don't. I think it's something you have to bear in mind with writing is that you'll create a character. People will say to you, what's this character like? And you'll say, or she's loud, she's obnoxious. She's, she's, she's trouble. And then you stick to that definition. Then the character is really boring because they're loud and obnoxious and trouble. In every episode, they say the same thing. They do the same stuff. And actually, when you've got a character like that, then you have to sort of say, now they're going to be shy. now they're going to be selfless.

And that's when they start to get interesting because we can all do anything. I was just to bear that in mind, talking of Doctor Who, with the companions. It's like obviously a Doctor Who companion kind of exists to be good and to be selfless and to save the world.

So therefore, when you need to search for those moments where they're selfish, whether a bit sly, whether they're a bit lazy, whether they're a bit too cynical, where they're taking the Mickey and then that backfires.

You just need to spinning out. It's called it turning. You need to keep turning a character, turning them in the light so that you see the different aspects all the time. It's part of the job, I think. That's very interesting because the next thing I wanted to talk to you about was a very English scandal. I just think that was incredible. Oh, thank you. It was incredible.

I mean, it was won awards all around the world, and you must be so proud of that. Oh, it was an extraordinary. I mean, Hugh Grant, hats off to here, he was superb. All of them. Well, everyone. But the whole cast. I mean, Ben Weishaw, all Alex Jennings, yeah, Monica, Monica Dolan. Amazing. Now, we were very, very, very lucky.

I mean, that's Stephen Freer's directing as well. He does tend to attract big names. They kind of go, all right, then, we'll come and do that. But what a story, because I watched that story, that's a real-life story, obviously, the trial was in 1979, and that's when I was 16 years old. So for me, that was, it's stuck in my mind since then. That was a huge thing to see, again, as well as being six-foot-six. And when I, back in those days, it was also rare to hear the word homosexual mentioned anywhere, anywhere at all, ever.

And not on the six o'clock news at night with people going blah, blah, blah, homosexual leader of a political party. It was astonishing. And when you're obviously secretly, shyly closeted in Swansea, as I was, quite naturally, that sets your radar pinging. It fills you with terror. So it was, you know, when you go through those extreme emotions watching a piece of news on BBC 1, that kind of scars you with it.

Oh, what a good, not scars, but it brands you with it. It's something, it's made its mark on you. It's something you remember. So for all those years, I'd remember that story. And I did, every so often I used to inquire about the rights to that, where that story should be told as a film. And it was kind of tied up for a lot, for many, many years. I was still, around about 2009, I was told the BBC films wanted to make a version.

And I was like, damn, damn, I'd love to have written that. And then our good friend, Dominic Treadwell Collins, He was the one who tracked down a book written by John Preston, which was, I think, the definitive version of the story. And bless him, best on it, asked me to write it, which was a joy. Oh, God, I was lucky to get that. I was so happy to do it. It just was so beautifully done.

I mean, every single way. Congratulations on that. But then you go on to years and years, which flawed me. I mean, oh my word. And you were talking about no, so people shouldn't write their bio. But how many conversations do we all have about stop using a filter, stop being so judgmental? It's about society now. And that's, I mean, everybody should go and watch it.

It's on eye player. Go and watch it again and again. Oh, yes, it's still on my eye player. Not many people did watch it, unfortunately. But I loved it. What a cast. What a cast in that. I think it's a miracle when something gets made.

People might say, oh, that didn't get the viewing figures. Oh, you missed that audience. It got made. I've got it. It's there. It exists. I'm very, very happy with that. Oh, so let's talk about it's a sin.

I really believe that it's a sin, in my humble opinion, and you and I have talked so long and hard about how much we love television. I think this is the best thing I have ever seen. I really honestly do. Oh. Do you know what? No pressure the next time I sit down to write a script. None at all.

I'm going to be sitting here crying, weeping, blood's coming out of my ears. Oh, my God. Thank you. Listen, thank you. Thank you. It's that cast, though, isn't it? It's I am so, this success. Sorry, no, no.

No, no. Yes, yes, but let's, this is about you. This podcast is all about you. So the right, what you did with the writing of these characters is that you let us, let them into our hearts instantly. We knew them so well, so quickly. And it is the only drama in my life that I have watched. I know those people so well.

I mean, in real life, of course, I know those people. And I mean, the characters that they're portraying. I've known them for years when I was at college, the years, the many that I've lost, the people that I visited. But those particular characters, you wrote it so beautifully that they have stayed with me. I go to sleep thinking of them. I wake up thinking of them. And everybody saying, this is the most astonishing thing. This is the most remarkable program.

It's beautiful. So from everybody who's watched it, and I haven't read one negative thing, thank you, Russell. Oh, that is absolutely overwhelming. I'm absolutely serious. None of us saw this coming. And it's an honour. It's like here we are remembering people we've lost. I mean, that's the most glorious thing is that never mind viewing figures, never mind all four figures and stuff like that. It's like the conversations everywhere, the DMs I'm getting, the messages, the office is getting of people just remembering the names of people and the stories of people who we lost. I think if you'd ask me this before transmission, I would have, if you'd said to me, Maybe we've all blocked out those deaths a bit. I would have said, no, we haven't, no. We've talked about them for years. We raise charity money. We belong to HIV charities.

We're good. We talk about them all the time. But clearly, actually now, I think maybe perhaps gay people talk about them more, queer people, that they're part of our memory. But actually, the world is bigger than that. And there's been this great release of memories and joy, actually, and remembering the fun and the good times and the Sunday mornings with your mates with a hangover. Those times we have.

in the 80s and 90s that have perhaps been, I think, I'm just being an amateur psychologist here, but actually it's part of my job, but it's like it's just been bottled up because the deaths were so horrible. It's a cruel illness. It's opportunistic and vile. And sometimes the deaths were so awful that a little kind of silence settled over us. Respect was there, love was there, but kind of bottled up. And this release of memories and stories has been amazing. And also for a younger generation, sitting down watching it, who had no idea that this happened. I kind of knew that would happen. I knew that within my own family. I knew that from my nieces. I knew that, yeah, maybe people weren't as keyed into what happened if you're 18. And that's not blaming anyone. If you're

18, you're living your life, you're moving forwards. Everyone should always move forwards. I didn't spend long looking back at history. You need to get older to start looking back. But to see a generation who are astonished at the homophobia and the treatments. And I think they're seeing terrible things happen in a very similar world to their own because the 80s aren't that different. The cars look different. But everything else is young people in bars having a drink and having a laugh. And it's not like watching Bridgeton. It's not like watching World War II. You're watching now, really. And to see terrible things happening in your own world has really astonished people. Oh, I can talk about it forever, can't be. Please do. What's so amazing about it

is that the way you've shaped each of the characters. So we get, obviously, people may not have watched it yet, so we don't want to give too much away. But the beautiful relationship between Colin and Neil Patrick Harris' character in the beginning and the way that that character was treated in the hospital. I mean, I've spoken to you about this before, but I used to do visits.

And as loads of us did, I had forgotten the pain and the disgusting way human beings were treated. I mean, utterly disgusting. We did forget, didn't we? Oh, my word. And the look in the eyes of those young men. Yes. I just, and you captured that.

The director, the actors captured it beautifully. Oh, the director, Peter Hall, the director. And my lovely friend, Phil, I did Doctor Who with for many years, Phil Collinson. It's kind of one thing. That's a gay director and a gay producer. I think it makes a difference. Argue with me all your life. I think that makes a huge difference.

I think there's an empathy and a vibration and energy running through the whole thing. It just seems true. Talking about Neil Patrick Harris, he's somebody that I've adored from afar for years. Well, obviously he's brilliant. Obviously, we all know that. But I've got to say, I didn't know quite how brilliant he is. And I mean this. It was like, it's quite awesome to watch him at work.

And it's effortless. And the detail, he's doing an English accent, which is so spot on and perfect. I mean, you've seen him in a series of unfortunate events doing a million different accents and stuff like that. And also, a lovely man as well. Oh, happy, really. You never know when you invite a Hollywood star to come and be part of a British production whether it's going to work because it's a slightly smaller world over here. And he was delightful and he loved it and he loved it, really, really gorgeous experience. We were so lucky.

And, you know, he's so, how do I say this? He's so committed to the course. It's a drama about AIDS. And that's why he came to start. He gets a lot of offers of work, a lot. He doesn't need us. But that subject made him sit up and pay attention. That made him read the script.

That made him say, this is a piece of work that has to be done. And I'm so grateful to come against telling. Gorgeous men. I'm so pleased to hear it because that's how I've always imagined it. He's one of those people that I just, I don't know why, but for years and years and years, I've always thought, you're special. Yeah. Yeah, you can kind of see the work he chooses as well.

You know, he's such a, I know, he's writing books now. He's writing children's books. And his Instagram page is a delight and full of joy. Oh, lovely. But then there's the other side, you know, you've got Richie's character who, I don't want to give anything away, but what he says. It's a complicated character. He's a very complicated.

But he's beautiful. But the relationships that they all have. And Keely Hawes, her performance, is, I've never seen her do anything like that. I think there might be people. It's hard to know where people are with spoilers. And even in a few months, people will be coming to you from scratch. So there might be people, it's kind of my secret joy about the series is, there might be people sitting there for the first four weeks thinking,

well, why do Keeney Hawls do this then? She's only not 10 lines a week. She does look marvellously, but she's bigger than this. Why? And then you get to the last episode and stand back everyone, move the furniture to the side because the most astonishing performance comes out. Isn't she just, she's Titanic in it? It's that I was on set that day.

Actually, I was on set for a while and then I went home. I thought, I'm not going to hover. I'm not going to, I don't want to see. this being done 46 times from 46 different angles. I know this is working. I'm going to go home and I'll watch it when it's done. And one of the great joys of my life, it's hard to, I'm smiling about such a devastating scene because it's awful in many ways and please come and watch it. But the joy, there was such a joy and such a great performance, such an honest performance, and everyone around her, just to see the young cast sparking off Keeley and Sean Dooley in there as well.

Oh, it's lovely. Good times. There's a moment where Sean behaves the way we didn't expect Sean to behave. I mean, he's, I love Sean. I absolutely love Sean. All of that, there's no weak link. So everything to me is, as I said, I think it's the best thing I've ever seen on television. But there are some things that people might not know.

So Jill, the character, is actually a real friend of yours and she plays her, she plays the mother of herself. Does that make sense? Yes. My lovely friend, Jill, we were 14 together in the West Kilorgan Youth Heats together. We used to laugh. having been doing plays together. We've still got catchphrases. We say, you know, like the Pink Palace gang have catchphrases. Jill and I still have daff things we say to each other. And she's been my friend for all these years, but she lived that life. She went to

London. She lived in a flat. She called the Pink Palettes. All her friends were gay. They were hilarious. They still are hilarious. And then the virus came along. Then she became a fighter. And it's one of the kind of the untold stories that I'm really glad you get a glimpse of and it's a sin. And I kind of wish I've been more of it, actually, which is how much the West End was one of the first bodies of people to turn around and help people with HIV and AIDS, because it was the chorus boys who were disappearing. They were amongst the first London, City Centre, Soho, West End. They were the boys who started to vanish and the West End stood up and paid attention. And I know incredible stories, Gabby, about West End producers who

invented jobs within their office, fictional jobs, just so that boy who was sick could have a wage coming up. He never turned up. He was never at the desk. They invented, they were just by wage. You can't perform. We'll pay your wage. Honestly, I can't name names here. I think we've probably guessed the names here. But incredible kindnesses that were shown to people when the government was ignoring it, when television was silent, when the newspapers were hostile, up stood the West End, and Broadway, actually, in New York as well. All theatrical centres, I think it's happened in Australia as well. They were the first to fundraise. And they still are fundraising to this day. That's the

astonishing thing. So Jill, she wasn't just, she was an insight to me to the Pink Palace, but also into that whole world of activism of the unsung heroes, really. They still do those shows. They still do late-knack cabarees and West End Bears performances. Apparently, people take their clothes off in those things. So I won't go and see that. I've hosted some of them, my word. My word.

I bet you have. I bet. I've never been else to perform. I find that strange. How strange? Next time. You've heard me sing. It's wonderful.

And so Jill, real-life Jill, I then, cast, I base the character of Jill on Jill and then cast real-life Jill as Jill's mother on screen. And what a joy. It's literally like she's gone from the chorus line to a lead performer. Finally, at 55 years. Oh, no, she's 60 now. She was 60 this week. She won't mind me saying that. She'll love you for that.

She looks fabulous. She started up West End Cares. Was it West End Cares? She's at 100 organisations, yeah. And they still are. She's like emailing me to say, it was a new scheme. She'll never stop. I mean, obviously, when the show is suddenly this success, what's the first thing she thinks, how can I turn this into donations?

Bless her. Her first thought. Amazing. Really, what a woman. What a woman. I'm privileged to know her. And her mum was lovely. Her dad was lovely.

Her brother's lovely. When we were little kids, when we were like 18-year-old kids, that was the only household could go to where he'd be gay. Where her mom was like, yeah, fine, put a coffee on like that. And that's in the 80s.

You know, that's rare. That was rare back then. What a good, she's well brought up. She's not just a good woman. She's well brought up. Lovely. And those lovely parents, as you say. But, I mean, all of the characters are beautiful, beautifully observed.

Is Colin you? Are you Gladys? I know everybody says that. I think just because he's well, I think that's too simple. I wish I was that nice and innocent and sweet. But you wanted to be an actor, so are you partly richie? You're partly part of all of them? A little bit of that.

And kind of all of them as well. I can be Roscoe, as anything. I love Rosco. Good on, Marie. He's absolutely. astonishing. And actually, leaving out the fact the lovely, beautiful, Nathaniel, the six with seven, and I'm six for six. So actually, if I could be anyone, I'll be him, please, the tall, willowy, beautiful one. But they all are. That's the one, isn't he,

stunning? Beautiful, beautiful characters and congratulations to all of the performance. And, I mean, obviously, future award winners, and also it's a sin that Olli has brought out, years and years have brought out, I think is hauntingly beautiful. Isn't it? That is, he's done a cover version, and it's, it's, suddenly the song comes alive in a whole new different way. And I've always loved that song. That's not, not in the original. It's a perfect song, but it songs as a torch song. And suddenly all the sin and the guilt and the regret comes out. And I listen to Ollie singing and I say, they're thinking, I can't believe I know that man. Where's that voice of an angel from? Incredible. We are lucky to know these people.

Ollie Alexander, I remember interviewing him. What a lovely, lovely lad. And clever. I mean, he's on it in terms of that, you know, he could just sit back and have a laugh. He's so beautiful and so talented. He could just be laughing all day. But politically he's on top of it all. I think if anyone hasn't seen it, go and look up his Glastonbury speech waves on the main stage of Glastonbury and suddenly seized the moment and made a kind of three-minute speech about being gay and being out of the shape of the world. And it's one of the most lovely things you'll ever see.

And it's entirely off the top of his head. That's what he's like. He's pro again, he's a star. He's made of something different and special. I keep saying in this podcast that you have this wonderful wide-eyed view of television. and life and the world. And it feels that it's, your eyes are even wider now. But with joy, not in shock, but with joy from the reaction to this program.

I hope so. It's more complicated. It's a complicated reaction to this programme. A friend of mine sent me an email saying, how do you feel? And I've been working on that email reply for about a week because it's bewildering. It's a bit sad because I'm thinking about all the people that died. You know, that comes flooding back.

Could have done more? You sit there thinking that and it's, it's, oh, you're doing it now. You're doing it now. Yes. I know. And good friends of mine do keep saying to me, remember to be happy. And I do. I think after the first transmission, it went out on Friday, and there was kind of a delayed reaction in my head.

And then I suddenly spent all of Tuesday morning laughing, just in the kitchen laughing. I just laughed. I put the kettle on, and I laughed. And I had a cup of tea, and I laughed. So it is nice. It is lovely. And that really, I'm not being modest here. I'm so happy for that cast, because I think we'll be watching that cast for the rest of our lives.

We will see them and things that go, oh gosh, look at them. Look at her. Aren't they brilliant? And so to pass that on to that generation is gorgeous, really gorgeous. What a gift. I could talk about It's a Sin for hours and hours and hours, but also so much more to talk about still. I'm going to go back then. So Kate Winsler, am I right in thinking that one of the first things she ever did was with you when she was a child? Yes, she was 15 years old and she was in dark season, but she still remembers. The friend of mine is now a recordist, the sound recordist.

Julian, my lovely friend, it was the Doctor Who sound recordist. He's now the sound recordist on the Avatar movies that she's in. And she wandered over to his sound desk on the first day because he has Dalek on that. So she went, oh, hello, British person like that. And she does remember fondly her days on dark season, which was a joy. I mean, there she was just a 15-year-old kid at the time. Who would have known when we sat in the last? was North Acton BBC rehearsal rooms.

That was Kate Winslet. She was wonderful. She was brilliant then. She was brilliant at 15. There's kind of a quietness about it. There's a centre to her, isn't it? Some people are born to that. They're born to that kind of stardom.

The stars do have something about them that other people don't. It's true. You saw that in Billy as well, didn't you, with Billy playing Rose? What? Look, I was blazing out of Billy. I think you'd have to be facing the other way, not to see that. Yes. And I know at the time, there was some people at the time that were fussed about casting a pop

No one in television did that. She was never just a pop star. And when she was a pop star, she was a brilliant pop star. Do you know what? I've worked a lot with pop stars. I work with Bernie Nolan. It was a delightful woman, sadly missed to this day. I work with Kylie.

But now we've worked with Olly Alexander. When you work with pop stars, you are actually working with the hardest workers of all. Because they are used to, they are used to getting up at 5 a.m. and flying to Germany, doing a breakfast show, singing their song, flying back and going on this morning with Phil and Holland. It's an extraordinary tough lifestyle. And you have to just know yourself. You have to be yourself in order to survive it.

So whenever you work with Pops, as I found, that you're with truly hard workers who have got such disciplines, a joy to work with them, good people. You listen to music while you write. Yes, yes. If you could, you're only allowed one track, and I've looked up your Desert Island discs. In fact, I listened to it.

And so you've got Kate Bush and Mr. Blue Sky. And if somebody had said to me, what sums you up, I would not have said Wuthering Heights, but I would have absolutely said, Mr. Blue Sky. Thank you. Yes, we played that at our wedding, my husband. Oh, did you? Yeah, well, agree. E-O, I love E-L-O.

How do you not love E-L-O? It's kind of not, it's not, what's not very cool to like E-E-L-O these days, is it? And yet they are, they're like the spine of Radio 2, aren't they? They are. We all know every track. They're just wonderful. So is that the song that you, that must bring up

lovely memories of your wedding then as well? Well, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it's funny, though, because it's like, I did desert island discs and I forgot one of the great lugs of my life, which is sparks. I love sparks.

You know sparks? Yes. This town ain't big enough for the both of us. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've got, oh my God, they've got an article called plagiarism. There's old now.

I wrote the whole of queer as folk to plagiarism. Is that right? Yes, I did. the entire thing and that's still an album that's branded into my brain

it's kind of remix all their tracks but it's a lot of their old tracks but they're like opera opera and high energy are thrown together in it and that sums me up

opera and high energy there I am I see I love that I love that what makes you happy what makes you laugh oh well people really my family makes me laugh

we make me howl we've just got little twins now. My niece has had twins and they're 19 months old and that's the family's thought for laughter for the next 10 years really, the next 30. Then they'll become trouble. But like, we just sit there and laugh at what they do. People in the end, people sitting around, I've read out, my mates, that's what makes me laugh in the end. And you're putting glasses on everything. Your Instagram just brings me joy. That does it. I do love to hear that. I put my glasses on my forehead because it's an alarmingly large forehead.

And photograph. I just discovered yesterday, Gabby, a fact. I live five minutes around the corner from the grave of Thomas Baudela. Now, do you know what it means to Baudelaise? No, I don't. Thomas Baudela was all back in whatever century he was alive. I'd go and read the grave. He was a man who censored pieces of art.

He'd censor Shakespeare. He'd take out all the sex and all the swearing. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, so to Bogleerize became a verb. To baudlerise means to censor something, to take the heart out of it, take the guts out of it or something. And the fact that he lives five minutes around the corner from my house makes me laugh so much because I've spent my career,

putting all that stuff back in. Can you imagine what he would make of your things? We are the yin and the yang together. It's hilarious. Baudler eyes. I hope I'm saying it right, bouldleries. I love that. I love a new word as well.

I want to use it today. I'm going to use it in completely the wrong context, I'm sure. Yes. Tell them, Gabby. say you can't boaglerize me. That's why you can use it. But did anybody ever try to do that to you with some of your brilliant Channel 4 dramas? To be honest, I mean, having written Quiris for quite early in my career, I was 35, but it was quite early in my career still, but once you've written that, no one really tries to censor you after that. They know what to expect. No, they know what to

expect. And there are obviously rooms I'm not allowed into because I'm going to write that sort of But, you know, no, to be honest, people working in television want to push barriers and they want to open doors that haven't been open before. It's, there are good shows around. They really, really are. Do you know what's so lovely about you, Russell, is that I, I mean, I hope you carry on forever and ever doing what you do, because I think you do embrace life. I just get that feeling, and as I said, you've been through awful heartbreak, but

you embrace life. I mean, when you went to L.A., I sort of feel that, and I can be completely wrong, because how would I know? But I feel like you got off the aeroplane and went, hello! Oh, L.A. I'm here. Please tell me you did that. The trouble is everyone does that in L.A. That's what the town is.

But they're not all Welsh and six foot six. But actually, I went to a town where everyone talks about television all the time. The waiters, the people in the shops, I mean, you know, everyone is touting, everyone is pitching. But actually, it's a television and movie town. So, God, I loved it there. I really properly loved it. You know, I expected it to be, I think there's a lot of cynicism spoken about the place. And of course there are deals being done.

Sometimes there are lies being told. But actually, I tend to think actors tell those cynical stories about L.A. Roth and behind the scenes, people, because being active is a terrible thing to be an actor is to be lied to an awful lot. But to work in production, oh, it's the production hub of the world. I loved it. Very happy. Plus sunshine. That's what I mean.

I can see you with your arms open. I do feel that you're somebody who walks around with your arms open. Okay, well, I will do now. Because that's how I think of you. I think you're a complete joy, but I also think you're a brilliant, brilliant TV maker the way you look at television and you love it. I mean, I still think I probably love it more than you,

but I'm not sure. And you just embrace television and you want to make the world a better place and you want us all to think, but you want us to enjoy the time while we're thinking. And that's what I get from you all the time. Oh, Gabby, you're on the side of the angels. Thank you.

Couldn't say anything nicer. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Coming up on the next episode, the brilliantly funny and quite wonderful Rob Beckett. That Gabby Roslin podcast is proudly produced by Cameo Productions. Music by Beth McCari. Please press the subscribe button

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