That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Shirley Ballas and Ariyon Bakare

Episode Date: November 9, 2020

In this episode Gaby has two brilliant guests. First she chats to ‘Strictly Come Dancing’s’ Head Judge Shirley Ballas. They talk about her fascinating new book ‘Behind the Sequins’, her partner Danny Taylor and her dancer son Mark Ballas who actually pushed her to audition to be a judge on Strictly. She discusses the challenges of being a woman in her industry, bullying and Strictly’s new same sex couples. Also listen to hear her fantastic idea for a dance themed storyline in Coronation Street!  Stay tuned as next up Gaby talks to Ariyon Bakare who plays Carlo Boreal in the hugely popular series ‘His Dark Materials’ which is in its second series on BBC and iPlayer. He shares an emotional story about when he was homeless in London at the young age of fifteen, and how he went on to pass his exams and become a successful actor.               Produced by Cameo Productions, music by Beth Macari.  Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter @gabyroslin #thatgabyroslinpodcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

and welcome to that Gabby Roslyn podcast with me, Gabby Roslin. In this episode, I chat to Strictly come dancing judge Shirley Ballas. We talk about her fascinating new book, behind the sequence, her partner, Danny Taylor, and her dancer son Mark Ballas, who actually pushed her to audition to be a judge on Strictly. Also listen to hear her fantastic idea for a dance-themed storyline in Coronation Street. She wants to get on the cobbles. Plus I chat to Arienne Bacare, who plays Carlo Boreal in the hugely popular series,

His Dark Materials, which is in its second season on the BBC and IPlayer. He shares with me his incredibly emotional story about when he was homeless in London at the young age of 15. First up, strictly judge Shirley Ballas. Oh my darling, how are you? I'm good, thank you. You look glorious. You know what? There was a couple of photos I was looking at. of you getting out of a car, I think you're going on to a TV show, and you're holding your book,

and you're giving that real Shirley smile, the real you. It's as if you've come out and you've gone, this is me. Well, it was definitely a difficult write, but I'm delighted now that I have done it. And, you know, when you're walking in anywhere and you're actually holding a product that's taken you so long to write, difficult write, difficult read for me.

But, yeah, I felt quite proud holding it. Oh, and I bet, Danny, I just, you know how much I adore Danny. We should tell everybody that story. So you introduced me to Danny and you said to me, sh, don't tell anybody. Do you remember when you first started going out? And it was that awful thing about, you know,

you want to mention it, but you don't want you. You said, no, don't say anything. Because I thought he was, well, it is divine. He really, really is a lovely, lovely person. I first met him in Panto, not last year, but the year before. Who asked who out? Oh, now that's. a good question. I'd like to think it was him, but because we were working together in Panta,

we all went out in large groups. So we got used to being around each other for about a couple of months, really. And he was just very sweet to everybody, the cameraman. He seemed to notice everybody that was in the room. And I thought, wow, that guy really treats these people extremely well. And then it went on, and he wasn't just like that with everybody else. He was like that with me. So it was spectacular, just the way he treated people. And you know what? When you talk about him, I know I can't see you now, but I've seen you face-to-face talking about him. And I can hear it when you mention his name. You dwindle. He's everything in a man that I never had before. Likes me the way I am. He doesn't, wouldn't think of one thing that he would change about me. He will all see the glass

half full. He's that type of person. How wonderful. I'm interested in a mark, because you and I've spoken a lot, about Mark, your son. And he's so, and he's married and you adore your daughter in all, which is fantastic. And he's been in dancing with the stars in the States. So the Strictly version in the States. And he's been on Broadway. And were you like your mum was? Did you praise him? Because you say your mum didn't praise you and say she was proud of you, well done. But you're the opposite with Mark, aren't you? You're so supportive. I know that because you sent me a link to his latest song when he had a song out. So I know how supportive you are of him. Let me tell you about that child.

First of all, like any mother, I think he poops pink ice cream. I think he is the superstar in my life. And when my brother died, because he was my go-to dad, brother, friend, when he died, Mark kind of at a young age, took over that role, so what to speak. And as a young child, as he was growing up, I had him in acting and singing and dancing. And of course, I pushed him to do dancing with the stars. It wasn't, and he's corrects me on many occasions. It was not his first love.

It was mine. It was my idea of success for him. And he was. He won it twice. He was in the final, I think nine or 11 times, proud himself on this musician skills, which he's also done from a child. Then he married his wife, B.C. Jean,

who wrote the song, if I were a boy for Beyonce and all the pitch perfect musics and whatever else she's done. Then he went on Broadway, which was really his thing, playing Frankie Valley in the version of Jersey Boys. And then the lead role at Charlie Price in Kinky Boots. Kinky Boots, yeah. He went on to do what he really wanted to do. It was me who was giving him the push in dancing with the stars as a platform.

But he, of course, now is known as a musician and for his music. Alexander Jean is the name of the group. You're a proud mummy. That's what I mean. That's exactly what I'm getting at. The same as when you talk about Danny, you have a twinkle in your eye. When you talk about Mark, I feel that your heart's exploding with pride and love. It does.

It just explodes. all over the place because in so much darkness he gives me so much light and you know of course I haven't seen him for a year he lives in L.A. Oh it's so tough. He used to be neighbours and you know it was a really difficult choice when my mother got cancer should I stay should I come home I chose anyway to come home to make sure my mother was okay and then of course I met Danny and it's been a lot easy with Strictly and so for that I'm truly grateful but do I miss that child day in and day out but yeah of course he's a face-time mom kind of kid you know checks my social media and he's always there to give some great advice.

How wonderful. But yeah, I get the feeling that you are, because obviously now I feel like I know you even more than I did before from reading a book. But, you know, all the nerves and the shyness. And it's interesting in these podcasts, a lot of people talk about the nerves and the shyness. Did you have them from when you were very young? Because I know you left home at 14, but did you always have those fears and anxieties then?

Did you not believe in yourself then? I wouldn't say it wasn't believe. in one self, because I think at that young age, I wasn't really sure what I felt. I just know I always had anxiety. But through going through my industry, which was a difficult industry for me, it was full of bullying, this and that and the other, I learned through my life to have different personas and put on different hats. So if I was competing, it was that very competitive hat. If I was around my mother, it was the mother-daughter hat. But generally, if you meet me, I'm actually quite quiet, not a lot of confidence in my being, in myself, in my appearance, in the way I look.

I'm not good if I have a team around me that's praising me. I can't deal with it in any shape or form whatsoever. And I think it goes back all the way to being young now that I've, you know, written this book. There wasn't a lot of praise back then. You know, my mother was quite strict that we always tried to improve ourselves and move forward and have good work ethic. There wasn't a lot of time. Oh, you should look at my daughter. she's so magnificent.

In fact, in the book, that line that, because they interviewed my mom, and she said, she said she was really strict with me, but she guesses after spending all that money, she backed the right horse. And to get a compliment from my mother really, really makes me feel warm. So, yeah, I've grown up with that inferiority of a woman myself. I've grown up with all different hangups about the shape of my body, my crooked teeth, my moles, my this, that and the other, you know.

I've grown up with that. But to get over that when I'm doing my job or striving forward, I have this different persona that I can put on and I can switch it on. I can go in front of a camera and it's light camera action and I have this ability to switch on. And through my counselling now, I'm realizing that's a good thing. What I've got to do is learn when to switch it off. It's very interesting because when we did a show together, I was interviewing you in your dressing room before you went out on stage.

and you took my hand and you said, it's so lovely to have met you. And I said, you know, it was lovely to meet you. And then you couldn't take the compliment because I said something nice. And you went, oh, no, no, no. And I said, no, I mean it. And then you said, oh, you've just met the real Shirley.

And I've welled up with tears. And I just went, oh, wow. And you said, take that as a compliment, love. Now go away, go away, go away, because you had to go on stage. But that Shirley is the one that has written the book. I hear that voice writing the book. Well, you know, people were like my mother, for example, who was like, why do you want to write a book, you know?

Because my mother is very private. She keeps all her life and everything as quiet as possible. She doesn't share anything. And I guess in the end, I was asked several times to do it, and I decided I didn't want to do it. And then I thought, you know what, I've had suicide. I've had ex-husbands. I've had bullying.

I've had abuse. I've had this. Maybe, just maybe, I can write this book. One, as an account for my son to really understand his mother's journey. And two, how many people can I help? So the most magnificent thing about getting this job on strictly, even though people see flashing lights, bibles, bambles, and beads, for me, it was a platform in a way to help other people.

So, you know, whether it's through my men's mental health because of my brother's tragic passing or, you know, women who are abused or women who are bullied or to give confidence that you too can move forward. I mean, all through my industry, particularly during when I got my second partner, Corky, and I got remarried again, he wasn't a dancer, and I had to train him from a beginner. Everybody said it wouldn't happen.

And I pushed forward and I strove forward and I went through my own industry, which is just dog-eat-dog, backstabbing. I hate that. Through adverse bullying and people trying to stop my work in my own industry because they felt I was a strong woman and I had an immense amount of work and I'd actually give my work to other people. men seem to see that as a threat and there's a lot of ego involved and so that's why I went to chance my look at this job with no TV experience pushed pushed with two hands by my son who say you've got the qualifications okay everybody can learn about TV and I believe in you mother and when he said that and I started crying I said I can't do it Mark and we know Len very well he's a friend of the family he was a teacher of Corky and I

Mark said, you have to try. You've always taught me to try. And that's why I went for that job, because my own industry, I had certain people in it that were rejecting me because they felt I was becoming too big to whatever they felt. That's horrible. I just, I'm sorry, I really, I mean,

I think that people aren't aware that it's, you know, the bullying is always about the person who's the bully. It's always about the bully. It's their issues. It's their problems. It's their jealousy. It's, you know, a multitude of things. But I think that at the time that they're bullying, they have no concept what they're doing to the other person.

And like you say in your book, and like you've said to me face to face, you know, all of this is what makes you what you are, but you're never going to get over it. How do you get over being bullied by all of the people in your industry? And then your husband, I mean, what a call you. In the book, we don't need to go into all of that. People have got to read it. But the fat shaming and the cockroaches and your food and having your. boobs, you know, all of it. It's just no, I want to shout at him and just go, why did you treat her like that? Why? But at the time, you were, you must have been, I mean, your insides must have been churning.

I've gone back into counselling, to be perfectly honest. I don't think there's any shame in that after I wrote this book. I wanted to go, but I'm getting all emotional now, but I wanted to go back in and try to understand some part where this bullying and shaming, you know, and at one point, you know, I've got a mole on my chin. and I remember being told, here's a dollar, go get it gnawed off by a rat. There's a lot that's not in the book, you know, but I go back to Corky. I was married to him for 22 years and he wasn't a dancer. He was a restaurateur. It came from a multi-million dollar family. They all went broke to cut a long story short.

And I took this boy out of his comfort zone and I took him into my industry where he also had to wear a suit of armour because people were cruel and they were mean and they were unkind about this beginner starting off on his journey. There was a lot of struggle, a lot of strife, a lot of understanding from my part, not about dancing the second time through, about the industry, male ego, how is it worked? And I think that as I got older, it got disliked by some people. They didn't like it that you became a strong female who had earned the right to have an opinion. Not that I was just an opinionated person.

I had earned my stripes in order to give my opinion. And I generally find that men don't like to hear that. Now you're on strictly, obviously strictly, we see you as a judge and you know I'm, I love that show. But it's also meant that you could do so many other things. I mean, they're climbing up Kilimanjaro and meeting the royal family and all of the things that you've done. You just, do you ever sort of pinch yourself and think back to being that seven-year-old little girl who started dance and think, I had no idea it was going to lead me to this? I'm trying to get there.

An actual fact in my last session last week is that you can sit on. up tall with a steel spine and you can actually pat yourself on the back and say, I did okay. It's not something that I have done in the past. So for example, when I got that job on Strictly and I sat with my son, you know, who's been in the entertainment industry all his life and we chatted about it. He goes, mom, if you get that job, think about the platform to help other people. I think when I die and I have my tombstone, it's going to be I had the most exciting journey helping others on their journey. So it's never really been about me, me, me, me, even with my own kids. It was always about making sure that I did the right thing for them to be in the right

places that they could become successful in Hollywood and my son on Broadway doing lead roles and what have you. So it was always about just making sure the platform was right. I enjoy to watch other people have success. I more enjoy the underdog that never thought they could attain or be what they thought they could be. So all of this really serious stuff, there is also, you are a giggler. You love a giggle. You're like a naughty school girl. What makes you properly laugh? I don't know it can be the quirkiest things because I'm really quite strict with myself. I'm very, you know, both my ex-partners, as you've no sense of humour, you know, you're too into. Oh no, you giggle. You, I've heard you. But if something takes my fancy and it's a giggle, I can't stop giggling. You know, I'm always nervous

about that when you go on on different shows, you know, like graham norton or something. Somebody will kick me off and I can't speak at. It takes me a minute to regroup. It can be any little silly thing or any remark that somebody makes or, you know, Danny will say to me, oh my gosh, there goes that dirty laugh again. Yeah, it's brilliant. It's actually contagious. But you see, now here's the thing that makes me laugh a lot, somebody falling over. I've been honest about it.

The two things I've been honest. Yeah, you see you're laughing already. So watching people doing dancing, and you know, you see those wedding videos and people falling over and you've been framed at doing the dancing, that has me in hysterics. Well, I did slip over one afternoon on strictly, I got caught in something, and I slipped, and the amount of people that were laughing,

you know, and then there was the other half of going, oh my God, you know, so I guess people react in different ways. I thought it was hilarious that I felt. Somebody actually said, are you sure you've got any balance, Shirley Ballas? Yeah, and when I'm with Danny out and about, I'm forever tripping over. And he goes, please, Shirley, you have come the country that you have balance.

I have you left in my arm and I'm holding you forever tripping over. And Danny and I think that's absolutely a hoot. I don't know why that happens, actually. I love the idea that the Shirley Ballas that we see with this beautiful balance and she does all of these dancing and you are the Latin Queen, you go for a walk with Danny and you have a rot on your face. That's hysterical. Or when I do my workout videos with my trainer car of Stubbington

and suddenly I can't find the coordination and she's filming it. And I'm thinking, oh, good Lord. And then I start laughing, Jora. And she's like, are you all right, Shirley? And I'm thinking, oh, my God, she only knew I'm slipping, tripping, and I pride myself on my coordination. So I'm doing the hello column for the run of Strictly. But it's going to be a video.

Fantastic. Video is not just going to be about Strictly. It's going to be like my life. So I wake up in the morning, six o'clock, whatever, get on the scruffy, don't even clean my teeth. I'm doing a workout vision. or my trainers here with me, you know, and then you will start to see some of these coordination issues.

I'm going to do everything in the day. And my favorite thing to do at night is to have a drink with Danny, and then I can do the chock, chop, chaw all the way around the kitchen, and then him and I have a snuggle and cuddle to the walt. And then I like to use dance as part of my workout fitness. So I think it's going to be a little bit of a hoot, to be honest, because they said to me, how much of you are you prepared to put in? well, if you read my book, it's everything.

In for a penny, in for a pound, except the actual showering part. But, you know, I think I can even make that look rather than. So I think that's going to be quite an interesting journey because I want the public to, particularly in these COVID times, I want them to laugh. Yes. To laugh, I've got to laugh at myself and I'm more than prepared to do that. So join that, enjoy it. You know, don't judge me too harshly now and think, oh, my goodness, that woman is.

actually got no balance whatsoever. Don't want you to overjudge me now, public. Please, please. You sound, you actually, that was so funny. You sound like those, my old ballet teacher. I mean, I used to do, I did ballet for years because my mom made me go to ballet. Actually, I really enjoyed it. But I went to ballet for years.

And my ballet teacher sounded exactly like that. Well, you see, I could be your Latin teacher. I could get you going, you see. Oh, no, no. Honestly, it makes me go funny. I guess I'd be at a party and I dance with you But the I know it's the thing about it's the co-ordination But it is I

You know when I play the piano You wouldn't know this but when I play the piano I can do the right hand And I can do the left hand Maybe to put the two together I'm like oh don't know I'll just do the right hand Well you see but at least you can play the piano

And if you've got something sort of feminine And very soft touch to play I'm using my hands you can't see me But you know there's a sensitivity in a woman's hands. If you've got, you know, you're not clod hopping and breaking things off wardrobes and things. Well, that's me. No, that's me, you see.

That's me. Oh, it is a little bit me too. I'm always dropping dishes and glasses. And, you know, I took the chicken out of the oven the other day. And the whole, the inside of the oven collapsed and the grease went everywhere. Oh, no. So, yeah, I'm a little bit cloppy-clot myself, but you can share that journey, of course, with the hello thing.

Oh, that's fantastic. See, you don't say no, do you to things? I don't. I've just done a couple of other projects where people can really just sit and have a good laugh watching me on them. But no, I don't say no. I don't. Quizzes, I'm not very good at quizzes, but, you know, I like to join in a quiz. I like to stand there and be a prop.

But if you ask me a question, I'm not the best at the quizzes because all I do is dance. Dance, dance, dance. Yeah, but you could do mastermind. You could sit in the chair and answer things about laughing. Oh, now, Gabby. Gabby, let me, let me say, mastermind, which they have asked me, by the way, and I have declined. Let's say, for example, they want to do everything about the dance genre, and I got the questions wrong. What a pillock. I'd look like a pillock. No, thank you. No mastermind

for me, no, no, no, no knowledge. And that man who sits staring at you, I don't think my brain would go all fuzzy and cloudy. Just looking at his face. So no, no, no, no. What's left for you that you're still dreams, hopes and ambitions? Because you still have them. I can hear it that you have those. What do you still want to do? I'd love to do some documentaries that really help people like going into old people's homes. And, you know, let's say, for example, I know some people that have gone in old people's homes that their children don't visit them and they're left. I want to be one of those people that can shed light on these people need family, even if they've got dementia. You know, they still need

family around. I'd love to do some projects to do with old people, old people's homes. things like that. I'd love to jump out of an aeroplane. I'd love to do that for men's mental health. That's on my bucket list. I'd love to go to South Africa, which are my roots, you know, that's my heritage. I went back there with who do you think you are. Yes, yes. You know, I discovered things about my mother's grandmother that she didn't know. And then my dad's side of the family, you know, was mixed race. And four generations back, you know, they came from slavery. They were taken from Madagascar. It was very fascinating and very interesting. And I, really think that my steel spine came from those women from all those years ago.

And I would love to have a part in Coronation Street. I'd like to be the dance teacher that's very strict on the end of the street where everybody sends their children or their adults. You know, and I want them to send Tracy. I'd love to be able to put Tracy. Hold on a minute. Surely you can make that happen. But I just see this whole storyline about this real, like, strict dance teacher.

You're not the woman that you perceive on strictly, but really strict. and then, you know, people come in and then this one falls in love with that one doing the chok, chach, char, and that one goes off with this one because his wife didn't want to dance. So he dances with the woman down the road and then they form a relationship. And all those things that go on, in my industry, I'd like to bring to a part of Coronation Street, but I'd like to play that teacher. This is a great idea. It is a little bit like what goes on in everyday my industry or, you know, the strictly curse or what people talk about or this and that. I'm saying. Oh, isn't it crazy the way everyone goes on about that? You just...

That could be the curse of the square. Oh, that's it. Yes, everybody leaves each other and they dance in the middle of the square. Can we just talk about the same-sex dancing? Hallelujah. Well, I think it's a long time coming, and I think if you go back years and years and centuries and centuries, there's been many times when two men dance together, two women dance together. I know that Derek and Mark have done many numbers together on Dancing with the Stars. It's really not a big deal. And I'm hoping the public will have open arms to see that it is movement to music.

We have same-sex couples in my own industry, so I'm already aware of that, and I love it. And yeah, I just tell everybody to be open-minded. And somebody asked me a question this morning and said, you know, people might not watch the show. And my point was, well, if they don't want to watch the show, there'll always be somebody else that perhaps will join the show. Yes.

We have embraced and opened up to all these different things and to same-sex. I absolutely agree. If you put, you know, in the old days you used to have to put in a passport what you did, what would you put as your job now? I normally put a dancer-stroke coach is normally what I put. So that's when I'm filling out any sort of form. So, you know, I coach, I teach, I lecture on it. And also gone into motivational speaking.

So I'm also enjoying that. I mean, there's so many, like I say, different hats I wear at the moment. I think the safest one for me to put down is dancer. You've got that one. I'll let you put that one down. Shirley, you are a joy. You know that. Anna, your giggle is infectious.

And you just, I love speaking to you. And I really, every time I see you, I just want to embrace you. Sadly, I can't at the moment. But I'm sending you a big virtual embrace and to Danny because you know I adore him to. And to Audrey, your mummy. Thank you so much. It's been marvellous being on the show and chatting with you. It really has.

Lots of love. Speak again soon. Thank you, darling. And now, as promised, here's my chat with his dark material star, Ariane Bacare. My 13-year-old, when I told her I was interviewing you, I said, yeah, from his dark materials, and she said to me, no, no, that's not what you're meant to call it. She said, HDM. Loving that.

I cannot tell you, I mean, I love it. But to see her face loving something that much, I cannot thank you enough. Oh wow, that is probably one of the best compliments we've ever had actually. He goes that's the whole idea of what we do is try to, we want to just kind of get all the audiences to kind of engage in it in such a kind of beautiful and kind of mesmeric ways. So that's really lovely. I'm excited by that. But are you as excited about making a show like this as it is to watch?

Because it is an extraordinary ride. Once you start on this show, you don't want it to end. And we were waiting every week for the next one. And I know you can drop the whole lot now, but it's very exciting to watch. Did you feel that on set? Yeah, we did. Because the thing is, you've got a great source material. You start off with a book, and the book's really exciting.

And then you tell people, you're working on this amazing adaptation. And then you're going to work and you're like, oh, my gosh, we're doing something that's really brilliant. It's quite seismic and its kind of value. And I always say that HDM, as you like to call it, I'd say it's one of my best jobs I've ever done. Really? Yeah. I really generally would say that, and I think it's just an amazing experience to kind of bring these fantastical characters alive. And, you know, I'd never played a villain before.

So that was what was really even more exciting for me. Working with the demons who aren't really there, are you doing some of your lines to tennis balls? No, we've got, we had puppeteers. They were always there. They kind of, they literally play the demons for us. And they're really, they're like, it's like, because if they've got. another actor right next to you. They say the lines and everything. They're really, really intricate. We see, we do a pass with the puppets first and then afterwards what we do is do without the

puppets so he should just remember exactly where it is and who we're reacting to. You never felt as if it was an alien thing. You always thought this if you were doing it together, which was brilliant. If I may be as bold to say that for me, the demons are incredible. They are, aren't they? yeah they really are they just blow me away they blow me away in the book as well so it's like it was just brilliant

way they brought them my life I remember on my first day and they said to me oh yeah so okay your demons are snake and how are you snakes and I went

I don't know and he goes well do you want to practice because we don't feel we want to do yours with a puppet who would rather use a real snake so they brought this snake out

and because I didn't want to lose my job I was like Oh, okay. I'm terrified of snakes. I'm just going to put that right out there. And they put this snake on me. And I remember gritting my teeth and just thinking, I've got to keep this job. And did you squirm or were you all right? No, I literally sat there really frozen. And I remember the puppeteer said to me, oh, God, you're so good of them. And I'm like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And literally I screamed afterwards. I love that. It's a classic actor thing, isn't it? They say, can you horse ride?

And you go, yeah. Yeah, I can horse ride, yeah, I can horse ride, yeah, I can jump. Yeah, we do it all the time. But by the end, I was like best friends with the snake. I have no fears of snake at all now. I love him. Is that up there with telling the story about being chased by a bull? Because all over the internet, there's stories about you talking about when you were on good omens.

What's this thing about you and the bull? Oh, God, it's me and Ned Denny. We decided we were filming in the middle of South Africa and went to this really beautiful countryside. It was like a farm and there was this bull. And Ned and myself, we're quite playful together. We're like a proper duo and we decided to go up to this bull. And this bull just looked at us with venom in his eyes and just said, I'm after you. So you saw us in costume literally running down to our trailer, screaming.

And Ned's telling me off and saying, it was all your four. Did anybody video it? Yes, someone did video it. Yes. And you're never going to find it. Oh no, please. No, no, no, no, no. No.

No. Can we just talk about your extraordinary life? Because it really is. When I was reading about you, the fact that your dad didn't want you to be an actor and you went off to America and you pursued dance. I mean, I know that's quite a simple way of putting it, but was it like that? It was a bit like that. I kind of went off, I went off to New York.

And I decided that I was going to be a dancer and I was very lucky. I kind of got into all the big observatories. I worked with Merce Cunningham, Alvin Ailey. I did the last class with Martha Graham, which was really amazing. So I was just this young kid who was 18 years old. And I remember I used to get on my skates and skate up and down and Broadway to my classes. And yeah, I was just this like amazing kind of experience. to just like drop into New York and think, oh, God, I've landed.

And then when I was, I studied there for two years and then I met a dancer called Peter London. He was retiring and he was 26 or 27 or something like that. It might be a little bit older. And I was like, you're retiring? I've only got about another four years left. And then literally the next day I remember going up to Mercer Cunningham and saying, I can't do this anymore. I'm going to go over to HBank Studios and study with V.

to hug and become an actor. Wow, it was as simple as that. It was a big kind of leap for me because I was like, well, I love dance. I'd always, you know, that was my kind of, I used to dance, he used to sing. You know, that was my thing. So I was like, okay, no, no, I'm not going to put my body through all that pain just to retire very young. Wow.

Well, I'm pleased you made the leap to acting. Can we go back even before that? because, I mean, if you don't want to talk about it, but I mean, I found this online, that you ran away from home and you were living on the streets in Hackney. Yeah, I left home when I was 15. I had a matter around my father,

and I always describe it as two lines, can't be in the same house together. And I decided to leave, and I ended up on the streets. I was homeless for about six months, and then I went off to go live in a hostel called Prospect Hill, which I always found really funny. And in this hostel,

you had to leave at 8 o'clock in the morning, and he wasn't allowed to come back until 6. And so my whole life was, like, for a long time, for maybe, probably a year and a half, just literally living on the streets or going to school. And I decided I was going to keep going to school, and I wanted to pass my exams, and which was really difficult because I'd have to pass my, I'd have to look at my books, like sitting on the doorstep

or trying to get my friends to sneak me in for the afternoon until their parents came back. And then it was like, so it was difficult. But I passed and I did well and I must have had that fight to me all the time. And I think that's what really was about, really. But what kept you going? How did you get through living on the streets? I mean, it's tough.

You know, here in London, it's tough. It was tough and it was unfriendly and it was hard. And I was scared. I look back in the edge, I think, oh, yeah, that was a part of my life. That's giving me the resilience now. You know, being an actor sometimes can be really difficult. It can be, you're always striving, you're always being rejected and it's very lonely. And I always think back to those days and think, oh, well, that's what held me together, you know.

And if I can use that kind of part, if I can use that part of myself now, then I'm going to be able to overcome any obstacle that comes my way. And that's what I do on a daily basis. I think it's something as performers, all performers, I know. You just have to be resilient, the rejection. And it's not a personal thing. But when somebody says, no, you're not right, that gets to you. Yeah, of course it does. It gets you every single time.

But, you know, you have to pick yourself up. And, you know, that's how I, that's how I see myself when I was homeless. Because every day someone would not, you know, with the days when I was really hungry, I'll always say to myself, oh, tomorrow is another day. Tomorrow, don't worry, tomorrow's going to come. Tomorrow will be better. I'd wake up, always with that feeling. And the feeling would be, okay, so get up, go to school.

study and tomorrow be fine. And that's how I felt. Stay in the library as long as you can. Read, read, read, you know, wait, you know. I didn't tell anyone for about, I didn't think I told anyone I was homeless for about two months. I didn't tell any of my friends. Why? So you can imagine, because I just, it was embarrassing to me.

You know, I was embarrassed. I didn't want to be homeless. I come from quite a good family. Why did I want to be, you know, this was all my own doing, you know. And how did you eat? Whenever I could, you know, I'd go around to friends' houses, I'd eat at school, found out that what I'd have to do is go and get help from the government, and I'd be a 15-year-old kid going to the Social Security and sitting there in this room where people were fighting, and it was so completely not my kind of lifestyle. And it was like, I was shocked, but I just just think, okay, I need the money, and then that was where I'd have to go there every single week or get money, I'd sit in the cafe. And it made me shy.

It made me, I lost a lot of confidence, a lot of confidence, actually, because I was scared. I remember one time staying in a hotel for homeless people, and this hotel was like a triangle. My bedroom was a triangle. And basically my bed could fit just, it literally could touch the corners. And I could hear all the families and the prostitutes

and everybody outside. And I was really this kid. I was terrified. But, you know, then I just read a book. I read, I think I was reading my, I think I was reading, I know why the Caged Bird sings. I think that's what I was reading at that time. So I was kind of like, I'd always read, I'd love reading.

And so I just read books, you know, that's what I'd do. I didn't have a phone then, you know, if I had a phone, I'd probably be on my social media, but then it was just like I had a book. So I just read and read and read. I'd go to a library. I'd spend hours in the library and read. Why have you not written this as a drama? Your life is incredible.

It's really lovely to hear, but I don't know. It's the first time I've actually actually shared it with people because I think everyone's got a story. It doesn't matter where you're from. I think everybody's got some story of what their background was and my story is my story. I'm not afraid of it, but I didn't want to share it with everybody

because I didn't want a pity card. And you have to remember when you have those kind of stories as well, you kind of try to flip it when you were in different circles because you want people to see you in a certain way. So you don't want everybody to know. So I think as I'm older now, I've got to a point where I want to face myself and I want to look at myself and look at that child and say, okay, look where you've arrived to. So now I just look, I'm trying to be honest with me, myself a lot more and let all these things just be me. And if that's what I've got to share to the world and the world wants to hear about it, then yeah, I don't know if I'm ready to write it as a drama. You will. You're a writer. You're a director and you're a brilliant actor. So put those together and at the very end you come out as yourself. Do you know, you brought a tear to my eye when you said you want to hug yourself. You deserve to hug yourself. And I don't think any of us do that often enough, do we? We're always beating ourselves up. We do we do? We spend most of our lives beating ourselves up. I've done it. I've done it continuously. And in the last few years, I've decided no, do you know something? I'm going to celebrate myself. I'm going to hug myself. I'm going to do things that make me smile because I feel as if I deserve that now.

And, you know, there's so many things in the world that makes me unhappy. And by taking my smiling inside myself, helps me to kind of focus on things like that. I started this thing called I Care, a conversation about racial equality, which was a platform where people talk about all the racial issues in the world. And I wanted to be an honest space, an honest, safe space where people have real deep conversations about this. And that makes me smile now. You know, I see all these great people writing their stories. And it makes me think, okay, my story is bad, but it's not as bad as some people's as well.

The more we hear about people's stories, the more that we realize, oh, I can do it. And I think to give people hope, especially now, but I think across the board to give people hope is a gift, a gift that you will give to people. I think, yeah, I think you're right. And that's what I hope I do that. I hope just people, if they ever come across your podcast or if they read an interview or if they meet me, I'm very much about telling people's stories and I'm very much about helping people get to where they want to.

I believe hope is the only way forward. What I also get from you, from chatting to you, is I can see that you've got a naughty twinkle in your eyes. I can just tell. I know, I know. So what makes you laugh? The fact that you said I've got a naughty twinkle in my eyes. Well, that was easy then.

Oh, what makes me laugh? I know, my friends, you know, they make me laugh. I've got a great group of friends right now, and I really love that. I didn't have that for a long time, and now I've just kind of surrounding myself around really good people. I don't know, there's moments when they just say things, and I'm just there. I like laughing. Life is great. Life is kind of therapeutic.

So, yeah, I laugh a lot. But I can tell. But also, entertainment is so important, especially at times like this. This past year has been an extreme and extraordinary year for everybody. And entertainment and disappearing into something. And I'm going to bring it back to his dark materials. I think we need that even more right now to disappear into another world. Yeah, I think the only thing, the other example of this is like wartimes.

That's what they did. They went to entertainment, you know. They had musicals. And that's what kind of helped them forget about what's going on in reality. And we need that now. That's why everyone was on social media. That's why everyone's watching Netflix. And great shows are needed.

Great dramas are needed. And that's what we're great storytellers. You know, I'm into that. In the moment, I'm really into listening to audiobooks. Oh, what have you listened to? What's your favourite? Favorite. So I'm now listening to Ralph Edison's The Invisible Man, which is 17 hours long.

Sometimes I have to put on speed. Wow. But, listen to that. Yesterday, I kind of, I'm crossing between three at a moment. I'm listening to the native son by James Baldwin. Yeah, I'm kind of, I'm trying to kind of get all my black literature up again. So that's my thing. And I don't want any more books.

I've got too many books anyway. Oh, no, you can never have too many books, surely. You sound like somebody who loves them. I do. I love books, but it's just like in the end, you have so many, and you kind of flitting through about four or five different ones, and you just pine them all up. So, you know, I'd rather just listen to an audio book.

And some of the performances are amazing. So why not? Have you ever done that? Have you done voice any? No. No. So if anybody wants to employ me as a voiceover, I should be your agent. You really should, shouldn't you?

I'm going to write a book. I'm going to write a film. I'm going to direct the film. Yeah, you've got to do a voiceover. Should I voice my own book? Yes. You've definitely got to voice your own book. But I've also realized what you have to do.

So I have, do you sing? Yes, I do. Right, so have you done musicals? I am really nervous about doing music. Okay, so when I was homeless, one of my major things was that whenever I was really scared, I'd sing. I'd sing when I was a child when I was really scared, and it's my little thing. It's my kind of comfort. And so when I was at drama school, people had heard me sing.

Once again, I think I probably was in the place where I was feeling a bit nervous. And then my drama school teacher, one of my senior teacher decided that I could do opera and was like, come on, we can push you to do this. And then when I left drama school, I just thought, no, no, no, if I do that, and everyone's going to judge my singing voice. And I just got nervous. So not that I wouldn't do a musical,

it's just that singing is something very personal to me. It's something that I do to calm myself down. Through lockdown, like I'd sing a lot because I was always on my own, so I'd just sing a lot. You're an actor, you're a dancer, and you now you said you can sing. For me, musical theatre is a wonderful escape. And I can imagine you being superb in musical theatre. You so want to be my agent.

Yeah, I got it all. Voiceovers, audio, your own story. Yeah, I'm not going to be, I'm not, you know, look, I'm a tragedy guy. I do tragedies and I do tragedy really well. Or I do sci-fi and fantasy really, really well. So I kind of stay in that lane and I enjoy that lane. So it's kind of going well for me. So jumping over to kind of do a musical.

And also the musicals I want to do, I want to do West Side Story. I'm way too old to do West Side Story now. What are you going to do, geriatric West Side Story? It's going to work. Oh, well, listen, congratulations, as I said, on his dark materials, H-D-M. Are there going to be more good omens and all of those things as well? I don't know if there's going to be more good. I think, you know, Nils kind of, he's on to the next thing now.

So hopefully I think there's a collaboration with Neil and myself we're doing something later on the year which I'm not allowed to talk about. But it's quite a big thing, so that'd be really cool. I did a radio show with him and I said to him, I have to play this part, so they're all working on it now. How exciting! Yeah, I've done it before where I've actually fought for a part.

I've got to play this part. Okay, so there's somebody you're saying that you get shy and nervous. But yet you just knew, did you? You just knew. I'm shy, I'm nervous, but I work in a business where you can't be shy nervous. So what I have to do is always force myself to kind of get out of myself. There's that thing where I look at myself for real and say,

okay, you've got this shyness, get rid of it. I promise you, I mean, that every single person, and they all talk about shyness, and it's amazing that that seems to be a theme through all performers. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're good performers. Yeah, I would say that. I think because you hide behind something, you hide behind a character or a song,

and the real real person, you don't really want people to share that real person. That's my little secret. Yeah, yeah, I completely get that. Well, I hope you believe it when I say, I think you're fantastic. I have loved chatting to you. Oh, I love chatting to you.

You're a joy. And I also, if you don't write your story, I am going to stalk you on social media until the day that you let me know that you have written it and that it's going to be made into, what should we say, six-parter? A six-parter, right, okay. Ari, and cheers.

Thank you, my lovely. Thank you. And you too. Bless you. Thanks so much to Shirley Ballison, Ari and Baccaré. Please join me next week when I talk to the superstar that is Josh Groban. That Gabby Roslin podcast is proudly produced by Cameo Productions, music by Beth Macari.

Please press the subscribe button and it will come straight to your phone on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you choose to listen. Also, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.