That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Tom Chaplin

Episode Date: October 3, 2023

Keane frontman, Tom Chaplin, joins Gaby for a chat about all things joy! He talks about touring with Coldplay, his on-stage persona and the pressures on performers in 2023. After explaining why he has snot on his trousers, he tells Gaby about the new music he's writing, the 2024 Keane tour, and how much he loves being creative. He also shares about the tough times in his life and how he's come through them. Tom is truly joyful and lovely and we really enjoyed this chat. We hope you do too! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Gabby here and welcome to Reasons to Be Joyful. This week's guest is a singer, songwriter, musician and all-round lovely bloke. You'll probably know him as the frontman of the band Keene. And also from his solo work, yes, I'm talking about Tom Chaplin. He's also, as we learn in this episode, a keen fisher. Enjoy. Tom, you've just blown my mind, Tom Chaplin. What do you mean when you're on stage performing?

there's no, you can't hear anything. What do you mean? Yeah, well it's, it's called, I think it's called a dry or a dead stage. That's the sort of the... That's really, that's put me... That's sad. It is a bit sad,

but it actually, I mean, especially if you're playing bigger venues, it's, it makes life a lot easier. So you have these kind of moulded earpieces. Oh, I see. There is music. People aren't miming. Oh, no.

I thought that's what I thought. Nobody's actually. actually playing their instruments. All the amps, most of the amps that you'll ever see on a stage these days, there's nothing coming out of them. So the old days you used to be on stage and the music would come back at you and the singer would have... You'd have monitor, you'd have wedges, you know, the old-fashioned things.

So someone like Paul McCarney, he still likes to use those. But most bands these days, they just... Everything kind of goes directly into various gadgets and it just comes through your ears. So it sort of... It makes the sound easier to manage for the guys doing the front of house mix and for the guys doing your... I had no idea.

But that's so weird for somebody who watches it. Yeah. In case you didn't know, I'm not a musician or a front man from a band. But watching it. But these days, if you stand on the side of stage, it's a pretty soulless experience because you can't... There's not... All you can hear is the sound of the drum kit.

Sorry to be really stupid, but how come? If I was standing side stage... Will, our engineers looking at me, go, oh, she doesn't know this. Joe, the producer, they're laughing at me. So if I was just me standing at the side of your gig, I would only, could I hear you singing? Probably not, no. No, you'd probably just hear the drum kit and that's about it. Everything else is just what's called died.

So it just goes straight into a sort of digital desk. Yeah, they are, they are. Do you still love performing though? Is that your thing? I do love it. I find it, well, it's interesting. Just take today, for example. I was down in Kent.

I dropped the kids off at school. I left the house and my wife just looked to me. She said, look at the state of your trousers. What's from looking at your... Well, I've kind of spent the train journey kind of scrubbing off all the bits of snot. Oh, lovely. Not yours.

Okay, you're three-year-old. Yes, my three-year-old. He's at that height where... He likes to wipe your trousers as a handkerchief. So, yeah, and, you know, I'm sort of on countryside mode, and I've been writing a lot. So she was like, look at the state of your hair. Please tell you, your wife, your hair, looks, you've got a good hair day. Actually, when I walked in and saw you, I thought, he's got a good hair day.

Yeah, you think? Yeah, yeah, good hair day. I thought I had to kind of almost rescue it from disaster this morning. But anyway. Imagine you on the train, rubbing, scratching the snot off. Spitting in your hands to get your hair looking good. Don't worry, it's worked. I wouldn't have known.

Thank goodness this is sort of radio podcast land because, yeah, I'm not feeling my most presentable. We'll have to take a photo of you later. Oh, God. You can stand in the shadows. So writing then is where that's where your head is at the moment. It is really, yeah. And it's one of those, once you're into that space, it's very absurd. So, I mean, I, you know, my kids, my wife, they'll find me sort of sitting somewhere and they'll ask me a question and all they'll get is a kind of blank face because my thoughts are entirely consumed by lyric writing.

My husband doesn't write songs, but he's like that when the girls and I ask him anything. Well, yes, it's also a handy excuse for just being vacant. I like that. So you're forever. So do you, as corny as it sounds, you know, when you're walking around and you're away from the kids and your wife right now

and you're sitting on the train wiping off the snot. Would a song come see that? Oh, really does. Well, I've been listening to demos actually as well and thinking, that's rubbish. That needs improving. I should change.

And it becomes, it's like a sort of, it's almost like a never-ending puzzle that you're trying to figure out. You're trying to sort of rearrange arrange the pieces, you know, to get something that feels pleasing. And it... Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

And the thing is, is that it's very obsessive. And once you're into that mindset, you're just trying, try and trying to finish stuff. And then you get about, probably about anything between five minutes and a day where you think, oh, I cracked it. And then you're moving on to the next... Are you perfectionist then? I don't know whether it's being a perfectionist, but I like things, I like to sort of complete stuff. I like things to feel like they work.

But as soon as that, I mean, I think that's the nature of being creative. You know, you finish doing something and it's not about the result because then you just want to get back into the process again. You want to just start, oh, I just want to start something new or that's giving me the confidence to try this or that. You know, it's never really, you never really feel like you're finished. But that's quite like for creative, that's a nice way to be because then there's always something more and always something more. So back to the performing then.

Do you enjoy performing? Oh, sorry, yes. That was, yes. We never got to the end of that. No, no, no. No, I like the route that we went. That's fine. So, yes, I do.

I do. But I suppose what I was going to say was, that I have this, I have almost like a double life really because I have this all this time at home living this little cottage in the countryside and I'm with the kids a lot, I'm doing a lot of kind of very sort of mundane home life stuff. And then there's this other side of me.

It's just like where I have to go out on stage and, you know, posture and sing these songs. and be very emotive and be very kind of extrovert, I suppose. And I find it really hard to change from one thing to the other. And so whenever there's a sort of tour or, yeah, or sort of promotion of an album looming, I kind of, it does give me the fear. It's like, can I do, can I really do this?

Am I capable of it? And of course, once you're in the swing of it, it's, yeah, you say, oh, okay, yeah, I can do it. And of course, it is lovely and it's enjoyable. There's also, like, in the mode I'm in now, I'm thinking, oh, the idea of being a performer. I completely get that. What's so interesting is, though, for people who aren't performers, they'll look at you. And I'm going to quote Robbie Williams because he's been on this podcast.

And I know Rob very, very well. And other front, and Ed, you know, all of these people who I've interviewed and who I know will all say the same thing. It's like, that fear, and actually, deep down aside, you're quite shy people. Yeah. You've gone through stuff. And you have to get back out there and go, hey, look at me. And there is that sort of your shoulders go round. It was interesting.

I saw you doing exactly what Rob always does. It's like, oh, okay, yeah. And then you go into show mode the minute you're out there with the audience. Because you do feed off an audience, surely like they do as well. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's exhilarating, of course. But it's, yeah, I feel like every time I do it, I have to sort of put on this thick skin.

The armour. Yeah. And to sort of almost adopt a persona. And I think particularly also as you get older, that becomes harder to do. And also because I think I know myself better these days and I like myself more. And so the idea. Love you saying that, Tom. So the idea of kind of becoming this other person is also, can also feel sort of faintly

ridiculous as well. It's like, oh my God, I've got to be that guy again. So that guy, are you that guy that you were back then before or everything that's happened and you know yourself now, like you said, and we'll talk about that after. But are you that guy again? Are you the keen guy, that very young keen guy, or are you the showman that you're... Well, I think I'm a better showman now than I was 20 years ago. And I think that's because I just, there is, despite the fact of it, say, you know, there's a lot to kind of, there's a sort of shifting persona that has to happen in order to get to that place. Nevertheless, everything I've learned, everything I've experienced,

I think still feeds into that. So I feel much more comfortable on stage as well. I can be more myself, you know, I chat to the audience in a much more authentic way than I ever used to. I love that. I have learned from it. But you were so young. And you started out doing this when you were so young that of course all the stuff is more likely to happen. I mean, you were thrown, you were thrust and thrown into the limelight. Who is so clueless.

Yeah. But understandably so. Well, I think the thing was we dreamed of this life and we looked up to other bands and, oh, that's what we want to do. Who did you look up to then think? want to be like them? You two, R-E-M, like bands who have that kind of big,

epic presence. And so, yeah, and so the songs and the writing and everything about what we did was sort of geared towards that. But I don't think any of us have thought, what will it actually feel like if we get there? Because I feel like there are certain people who have an understanding of what that's going to be like before they get there.

Well, they have the, Do you think so? Yeah. Well, here's a good example. In the late 90s, we used to play gigs in London with Coldplay. And Tim and Chris were good mates. They were a mess at university. And you could just tell.

You could tell Chris, there was a part of him that was so right to sort of go out on that track and end up where they did. almost like a bit of a well let's how do I say this in a in a nice way but yeah like a kind of it's like almost like I'm not saying Chris as a sociopathic but there's sort of sociopathic quality of like I can do this

I have total sort of self-belief and be very focused and you could just tell and a kind of a natural charisma a natural energy you know when I even doing little tiny gigs to 20 people or whatever, you'd see him and he'd just have this knack and this ability to cope with the situation. Whereas we, yeah, I think we really struggled with that as a band.

I think more so when, you know, years ago, but now you've got, it's ruthless. The judgment you're getting from every area. And then you've got, not only have you got press And not only have you got TV, radio, podcast, but you've got every single person with their phone taking videos of you, judging you, judging your performance, judging your looks, judging everything.

It's just too much. I don't know if anybody, that's why I said when you said that, I don't know if anybody can be ready for that. No. Well, maybe not. Maybe not. That's the impression I had of someone like Chris, but I also think of someone like Freddie Mercury as well.

He's one of my great heroes. and again, you just feel like he sort of understood what it was going to be like. He was so flamboyant. But, you know, and had the right clothing and the right look and seemed to just have the right demeanour for it. But I just found as soon as we had all these great songs that comprised hopes and fears and out we went and people loved the songs. and the album really resonated in a way that we just never expected.

I mean, we hoped it would. We never expected it. And suddenly we were there. And it was, oh, my God, this is terrifying. Of course it is. And as I said, you were so young. And you can't, yeah, maybe Chris, so weird every time I say that, I think of Chris Evans as well, because he was one of those people that everyone said,

he just, you know, very focused. But Chris Martin and that they have this, and Freddie as well. well, as you said, have this way of going in. But there was something really alarming, whether you're ready or not, to have an album that everybody is playing, everybody's talking about. It's resonating with everybody.

It must be the biggest thrill, but the most terrifying thing ever. Oh, well, it was definitely a thrill. And I think maybe it's slightly one of my regrets in life, is that I wasn't, because I think that's the other thing, is that you've got to enjoy it while it happens. And I think I struggled to enjoy it because of the level of scrutiny.

And I just felt very self-conscious. You know, you're talking about knowing yourself and learning to kind of like yourself. That's been a project that's taken me 20 years. You know, and at that time, I just, I didn't, I wasn't equipped emotionally or mentally to deal with all of that stuff. And so I wasn't really as. present as I wish I could have been. And also the other thing is, of course, it happens. Suddenly you're right in the line light.

You think, well, this is going to last forever. Or at least that's what I thought. Oh, yeah, it'll just be a continuous, like, sort of upwards trajectory to the stars. And, of course, for most people, most bands, you have your moment and then it sort of takes off. And that's really, that's even tougher than that initial godlike status. Then you go,

crash. And that crash is a really tough crash. It can be a very small crash or very big crash. Yeah. But there is no one that prepares you for that either. So you're getting it, you're being slapped at the beginning. You're slapped halfway through. You know, it's, there's a lot to cope with. Oh, so tight. It's a tough life. It's a tough life. But I don't think anybody who's not in that can understand it because they're looking at. Oh, yeah. Rock stars. They're rock gods. Oh, wow. They're famous. They can get on an aeroplane. They can get a table wherever, you know, all of those things that people still imagine. Because if you speak to young kids,

the amount of sort of 10, 11 year olds, you say, what do you want to be when you're older? I want to be famous. Yeah. And that is, I always find it extraordinary when someone says, I just want to be famous. What do you want to be famous for? Oh, no, just want to be famous.

I'll go on YouTube. I'm going to just going to be famous. Yeah. Yeah, that seems like a perilous path to take, in my opinion. Famous an odd thing. Yeah. Yeah, and in fact, I feel like I'm much happier these days, not, for the most part, at least, not being recognised, being able to sort of go under the radar. I mean, but my ego will still say, oh, wouldn't it be nice to be?

Yeah, yeah, back in that place. But I think rationally, I look at it and I think, no, I'm much happier being able to be an artist, be creative, have a lovely set of fans. a great following that sustains me and that is more than enough really. And doing what you love, which is being a wiping snots off your trousers. Yeah, well that too, you know, having a good balance to life. It's a hard thing to find if you're a musician because, well, like I said to you, you become absorbed by the creative process and that sort of takes you away from your family. Even if you're at home, as I say, you can look a bit vacant a lot of the time or thinking,

why don't you watch a bit more Peter Rabbit so I can go and sit in my studio and figure this idea out so yeah getting that balance right is tough but then also there's the time away you know it's just how do you do how do you cope with that lots of face time

yeah well my daughter who's nine she's she kind of just she's kind of learnt to accept it now she almost sort of just forgets that I exist for the Sorry, we generally have a three-week touring policy, a maximum of three weeks.

So I think that's about as much as kids can have, really. So she, over the years, she's kind of got used to me going away. And in fact, she doesn't really even need to FaceTime. She just knows that we can strike up where we left off when I get home. That's lovely. Yeah. And I think the flip side to that is, obviously, I also have lots of long extended periods of time where I am at home.

So, you know, that's the, that's the pace. payoff in that regard. But my three-year-old, I mean, he's going to be furious. I can tell. I'm going to get real cold. Oh, yeah. I'll get proper cold shoulders from him, I reckon, because there's quite a bit of touring coming up over the next year or so. So when does all of that start then? Well, it's not nothing, I'm very careful I say. Oh, right. Is it secret? Yes. All I'll say is that it's 20 years next year. since the first keen album. That's what I was going to ask you. Yeah. So there may or may not be some sort of celebration of that. Fantastic.

I think that's what people are all wanting. And you've just said it without saying it, which is great. And I'll be in the front row for that one. And then, I'll say, yeah, you see, I told you, he said it, but he didn't say. Yeah. It feels remiss for us not to talk about all the stuff that we keep mentioning. because you talk about it so openly and all the interviews that I've watched

I mean I've interviewed you before but all the interviews I've watched and all the stuff that I've read and everything you've done I majorly salute you for being so honest but in a very it feels not terribly self-indulgent oh look at me

look what I've been through I've been through this I've been through this it's like okay here are the facts this is what I've gone through it was really tough time and I've had a few tough times times, but here I am now. And I love the way you talk about it.

Does that make sense? Sometimes you just feel that people are gushing. Okay, yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, that's my experience. And obviously, I wrote an album about my addiction. So in a way, as soon as I did that, as soon as I had all these songs that were about that part of my life, I kind of felt like, it was funny because I remember when I'd written that record, The Wave, I had, um, I had a.

meeting with a guy who works, he's a friend really, he's a journalist, but I thought I'd have a chat with him before releasing the record to talk about, you know, how to go about approaching, promoting it and, and just,

yeah, talking about the songs and all of that. And it was funny because he said, he said, well, are you actually thinking of talking about, yeah, your addiction and everything,

and the stories behind the songs. I was like, yeah, of course I am. Like, I really felt like it was important to set them all in context. And he was quite surprised at the time. But I think the thing for me was that it really, what it reflected was just the fact that I'd gone from being a very closed-off,

repressive sort of individual to doing a lot of therapy and talking very candidly in therapy. and opening up in that and just thinking, well, that's just the way to be now. Just be yourself and be honest and talk honestly about stuff.

So it didn't even feel like scary to make that leap. It was just like, why would I be worried about talking about my experiences good or bad? That's just what we are as human beings. Yeah, but it's the way you've done it, I suppose.

I suppose that's what I mean more than talking about it. And I love it. I love people for their honesty and doing all of that. But I think it's the way you haven't done it as pity me. There's no pity me and there's no, poor me. Right. No. Well, good.

I'm glad that comes across. It's interesting. At the time that record came out, which was 2016 or something, it still felt that time, like the whole kind of debate on mental health and everything still felt very stigmatised talking about that stuff. Actually, that recently, you're right.

Yeah. And it's so it's interesting. Just even in this short period of time, how much things have changed and evolved in that regard. So I guess I was a bit of a zeitgeisty moment for me, really. I just happened to be part of that shift and was able to talk about things without kind of, you know, when I first, like years ago, when I first went into rehab in 2006 or whatever,

I mean, it was in the sun. There were perhaps hiding in the bushes at the priory. No. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. People, and I remember even going, when I first went to the priory, I remember the guy I talked to there, he said, well, you know, this is going to get out into the press. And I thought, oh, okay.

It was like, there wasn't even, yeah, there was no sense that things were going to be, kept private, it was just like, well, this is going to come. That's the way it was in those days, though. It's hard to imagine now that there was no sort of sense of discretion. It was like, it will get out. But why is it anybody's business? Sorry to be, you know, I love your music. Yeah.

And I'm very sorry, I don't mean you, but I'm saying a performer. Why is it our business that they are doing that until they choose to tell us if they want to? Yeah, well, I don't know. And certainly in those days felt like it was more because it generated such good headlines and good stories. But that must have been really tough for you to handle. And your family? It was my life was such a mess.

It was only just another layer of mess. Yeah, of course. So it didn't, yeah. I mean, yes, it was upsetting and difficult to deal with. But what about your family around you? I think they were just worried about me really. Okay. I mean, maybe, I mean, I'm from quite a middle-class family,

so maybe there was a certain sense. of embarrassment about, you know. Let's not talk about that. Yeah, exactly. Let's not discussing. What are we going to have for Sunday lunch? But these days, I think when people end up in trouble, you know, with addiction or depression or eating disorders, any of these things, it seems to be that there's not such a sense of, you know, joy

or whatever that sort of derision or whatever that sort of derive from, um, what, you know, you know, joy or whatever that sort of derive from, you know, what's written in the press. It's more of a, there seems to be at least, more of a sympathetic view of those kind of things. That's hope. Well, it feels like that. Maybe I'm deluded. No, I don't think you are. I think, you know, people are very much more aware of mental health and everybody talks about it much more.

Well, yeah, I mean, I didn't even know about this Lewis Capaldi thing, but you're saying it was in the news. Yeah, it was in the news this morning. And he made the documentary and that was a, oh, it's a tough watch. Yeah. But very good. Yeah, but you see, he'd have been laughed at or lambasted or it would have been written about in a kind of unfair way. Well, look at Rob. What Robbie went through.

And like you say, and what you went through. And actually, then you go back to Ed, who I just mentioned and him coming out and saying what had happened in his family. years ago we would have known about it probably before they all did. You're quite right. Oh, it'd be lovely if it's all, if it forever changes. You hope so. Yeah, that would be nice. For you, though, now, and the other thing that I sort of see you talking about a lot

is that you wouldn't have changed that. You wouldn't have changed anything because that's made you what you are. So that's about living in the moment. And it does come with age. Yeah, yeah. Just point that. It does come with age. Well, it's definitely, it forced me to,

look at myself in a deeper way than I ever would have done otherwise. So, yeah, I think, otherwise, I, otherwise, I, yeah, my, it, I was so clearly so unhappy that it's sort of fuelled this addictive behaviour. But the addictive behaviour took it so far in a certain direction that I ended up having a choice between either getting well or probably ending up dying from those problems. And so, you know, mercifully I did manage to get well. And I think, you know, I was sort of grateful. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I feel sort of grateful for the fact

that I was forced into that place. Because now I've sort of gone on this sort of inward journey in therapy and through writing and being creative that I don't think I'd have ever been able to make otherwise if I hadn't had those problems. So yeah, it's part of me. I have to accept that. So in any form of celebration that may or may not be happening of the 20 years, will that be for you inside a celebration or will it be, oh gosh, this is? a little scary. No, I think I'll really... Oh God, I'm going to... We're going to be talking about it now, aren't we?

Yes. No, we'll be a celebration. I think the thing that's hard to get right is obviously you don't... You know, as an artist, you always want to be moving forwards and doing something new. So to do something that's looking back at the past

and a golden moment, some might say it's a golden moment in the past, is, yeah, there's a sense of trepidation about looking backwards. So there has to be a way of doing it that feels fresh, I suppose. But regardless, it's, you know, that's a record that obviously changed our lives completely. And it meant so much to so many people. You know, we were saying this before we started chatting on air, as it were,

but you were saying songs and albums and things. That album, I instantly know where I was. I know the car journeys. I know the smells. I know it's a seminal album. And I love listening to it again, even though some of the things that I remember from that time might not have been celebratory or whatever,

but that album made me think. And that's why I was saying for you, I suppose it's a celebration, but it will make you think, which is what the audience, funnily enough, that's what we want as well. I think it'll be nice

to be reminded of the success of it and everything that happened. Yeah, because there were loads of great times. I mean, I sort of feel like I have a tendency to sometimes paint that period of my life as, you know, I was terrified and felt screeched. But there were loads of great things happening as well. So I'm sure it'll conjure up.

And friendships again, you're all okay again. We really are, yeah, yeah. That's another thing you've been so open about, which I salute you for, you know. And the fact that you weren't, and now you are, just how lovely. Yeah, well, Keene is, I mean,

because we grew up in the same town and went to the same schools, we're kind of like brothers, really. And it's very hard, you know, like sort of families or whatever, you know, you can, you can get sort of pushed apart or live separate lives. But when you come back together, there's a,

there's a connection that is hard to replicate with new friendships or new, you know, sort of endeavours that you're doing. It's so deeply in the fabric of who we are. And I sort of feel like, as I've got older, I recognise the importance of that. And I think, you know, I'm trying to do everything I can these days to make sure that we can make it work. Because I think a lot of bands,

you know, what happens to a lot of bands is that they have the same dream, they start out in the same direction. Everyone's putting in the same direction, and it gets them to this point, and everything's great for a while. And you have your success, and then suddenly the cracks start to appear

because people start wanting different things, or you fall out over the business, or you get sick of the sight of each other because you're in this kind of confined bubble for so much of your time. And gradually, this seems to be the natural state of most bands. They start to kind of sort of fall to bits. And, you know, I think that probably did happen. Well, that did happen to us, definitely. And there were resentments and things that were.

we were unhappy about and things that were unspoken. And yes, and I think had it not been for the fact that we've all done a bit of work on ourselves and we've all grown up a bit and we all recognise the importance of how deep those connections are, that

we sort of found a way to reunite and work at it, you know, and really prioritise that side of things because, yeah, I can see how easily it happens to bands and then they never, they never reunite. And when they do it, it's all a bit fake. Maybe.

Yeah. Yeah, and it certainly isn't that with Keene. I think there's a lot of love for each other. Okay, so whether you do or you don't, I'm so looking forward to it. What brings you joy? Oh, I was meant to bring something in, awesome. Yeah, no, we'll do that. We'll do that after. Okay, we'll do that after.

What brings me joy? Well, so I've got sort of sets. I've got, there are sort of probably four or five things that I've sort of narrowed it down now to the things that I enjoy in my life. That's a lot. Okay. I'm looking forward to. Writing songs, being creative, taking out, making out, making out, and taking them out on the road.

That's one. That's one. That's one. That's a lot. It's a big, fat one. It's got many, many faceted things. Then I love sport. So I love golf.

I love playing football. And I love going fishing. Okay. You have to choose one of those to do right now. Which one? Just one. Now. I can't play golf.

I knew you go golf. Okay. All right. So you got that. Yeah. And then... Are you going to mention your family at all? This is...

This is... This is the great crescendo that I'm working towards. Oh, thank God you reminded me. No, because I do the same. Anybody ask me, always think, oh, television and radio and podcasting. What about your family? Oh, you know them too, yeah.

Yeah, well, no, of course. My family, my kids, my wife... My wife is... Yeah. Will she listen to this? I'm going to send it to her privately. No, but she has been an amazing... You've been together a long time, really.

Yeah, we got together just before the hopes and fears was released, so pretty much 20 years now. So, yeah, and she's actually, she's a psychotherapist. That's useful. That's useful. They have that well-planned, well thought her. And what's great is that she really understood that my problems were, you know, something to be worked through and something to be understood,

and that I think she believed ultimately that I would get there. But she had to put up with a lot of shit along the way. I mean, she really did. And so I'm always very grateful to her for sort of enduring those difficult times and for being so understanding. But I suppose she has that sort of psychological thinking, you know, where she can see past the sort of superficial stuff and see what's going on deeper underneath.

And that's really very helpful. And of course, now I've gone through so much therapy. We can sort of talk in those terms as well. So we're always checking in with each other. Psycho-analysing one another. Psycho-analysing each other. Good evening. Right.

How's your day being? Let's go through it all. Oh, yes, indeed. So, you know, and also she just, she kind of, I think a lot of the time she knows me better than I know myself. I think I know myself better these days, but she still knows me better than I know myself.

And it can be as simple as like, you can't wear that with that, you know, because I'll get dressed and I think, yeah, that looks good. And instead I'll walk down, you can't, that does not go. But it could be as sort of superficial as that, but also like, you know, the bigger stuff,

the bigger questions. And life is always throwing that stuff up, isn't it? I'm like, should I, you know, should I be doing this? Why am I doing that? Why am I, why am I feeling this way? You know, she's very good at helping me to keep on top of that stuff. Do you laugh a lot together? We do, yeah, we do laugh a lot.

We're quite rude to each other as well. I think that's in a, in a, sounds bad, but, you know, we are. I don't know what you're going to say. I'm sorry, thinking, oh my goodness, what's he going to admit? How can you be rude in a loving way? Yes, of course you can. Yes. Oh, yes.

Yeah, I suppose that's what I mean. You know, we tear little strips off each other a lot of the time. But we do, of course, yeah, of course we laugh. When you talk about how you beam, you actually properly like a big beaming smile when you talk about her. That's so lovely. Yeah, well, good. Tell her I said that. That's the snippet that we can send her.

Well, we'll quote, yeah, we'll edit that down and you can send it straight. Look what I said about you. Yeah. Well, let's move on from her anyway. I don't too much smoke up for us now. And my kids, obviously. I mean, and it was funny because I was going to, one of the things I was going to bring was every time they say something ridiculous

or hilarious or, yes, or funny or whatever it is, we write it down. Do you? That's a brilliant idea. Yeah. My wife, she's writing a letter per year. to each kid that she's going to let them have when they're... That's just made me well up.

No, it's not sick. Why haven't I done that for my girls? Oh, don't, don't. She feels like she's running out of steam already. Frere, our daughter's nine. And she's like, maybe I'll just start doing it every few years now. Because it's quite a lot to do. So what, does she put in there?

She writes just about what's happened during the year and, yeah, and about the nature of her relationship. to them and of course the amusing things that they've said and done. You should do a book of it. I mean, you should do like an exercise book. Some of the stuff they've said though. It's just, oh, it's unrepeatable. Tell us one that's going to make everybody laugh.

Oh, I can't. You're actually, you're blushing. No, I don't know whether I can say this because I think people might be shot. Okay, don't say it. Yeah. Okay. Something very, no, no, no, I can't go there. I can't go there.

I can't go. I'll tell you off air. Okay, I can tell by your face. It's that your face is going, oh. Tom, thank you. I'm looking forward to whatever it is that you might be doing next year with some other people. But thank you for the music. But also thank you for just being one of my favourite people that I interviewed.

And so when I interviewed you on the radio, that's why I had to message you straight away because you're one of the people. Do you just want to be around because you're a good guy? So thank you very much. Well, it's been lovely to come up and do this. So thanks for having me.