That Gaby Roslin Podcast: Reasons To Be Joyful - Tom Cullen

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

Tom Cullen (Downton Abbey, The Gold) joins Gaby for a chat about all things joy. They discuss the brilliant new show - The Gold - which he's starring, as well as some of his other work and roles. Tom talks about being thrown out of drama school, and how kind words and actions from others helped him to become a better person and forge a career as an actor. They also chat about imposter syndrome, the highs and lows of being an actor and the simple things that can make you smile. We hope you enjoy listening to the chat as much as we enjoyed recording it! And remember - you can watch all of our episodes on our YouTube channel (as well as Extra Nuggets Of Joy every Friday - our special Show n Tell episodes) Please like and subscribe so you never miss an episode! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi everyone, Gabby here, and I'm absolutely thrilled to share some exciting news. Now, you know I love starting my day with a good breakfast, and there's one granola that's the go-to in our house. It's Lizzie's. So you can imagine how delighted I am to now be officially working with the fantastic team at Lizzie's as their new brand ambassador. It's a brand I believe in and have been enjoying ever since discovering it in my local waitrose years ago. Lizzie's has a variety of delicious granolas, including high protein, of which the chopper, and peanut is my husband's absolute favourite and low sugar, which both have loads of different flavours for all taste.

My kids cannot get enough of it either. Plus, as many of you may know, I have a gluten allergy. So finding delicious and trustworthy gluten-free options is so important. And Lizzie's gluten-free granola range, honestly, it is delicious. My personal favour is the gluten-free caramelised nuts. Yum! So for a tasty and nutritious start your day, whatever your needs or preferences,

give Lizzie's granola a try. It's my favourite at breakfast time, and soon it will be yours too. Tom Cullen, welcome to Reasons to Be Joyful. Thank you for being here, and thank you for last night. Thank you for having me, and thanks for watching. It's very weird when you say to somebody, thank you for last night.

Everyone's going to think, what was she doing with him last night? No, the gold is so good. So I loved season one. But we get to really, I feel that it's not so much about the Brinksmat robbery. Now, it's so much more about the people, even though the first season was. But your character sitting there in Tenerife, and I know what's coming, but yet it was good. It took me away from real life. I sort of sunk into it.

Oh, that's good. That's why I watch stuff, I think. is to kind of disappear a bit and forget and it's nice to break up your life a little bit with somebody else's story. You know, I think that's... Escapism, isn't it? It's lovely.

But the thing about that story is that actually, you know, it's a bit of escapism, but it's affected all of us. Yeah. And the Brinks-Matt robbery really did kind of change the course, of British society.

You know, the whole of the East End of London, for example, is built off the back of Briggsmat gold. But the thing that I find most fascinating, and it's a small little detail, but if you were to buy any gold since 1983, which is when the robbery was, it has a very, very, very high chance that there is gold, Brinks Matt Gold in your jewellery.

So you're sat at home watching the show, And, you know, you might have a bit of brinks mat around your neck or on your hand. And we wouldn't know, though, of course. Well, I mean, if you've bought it since 1983, chances are that it's got brinksmat. Yeah, but no, but you... All thanks to John Palmer. Yeah, but you wouldn't know.

I mean, you wouldn't be sitting there. And thinking, oh, I've got a brick... I bought this because it's brinksmart. No, no, of course, of course. Wow. That's how much this story has kind of permeated British culture and society. I mean, it's absolutely fascinating. And it goes all the way from the kind of macro,

from the micro to the macro. It's really fascinating. Did you, it completely, I have to say, after watching last night, I wanted to know more about Palmer. I mean, I really did. I mean, it's just that weird, that moment, and I know you said it when I chatted to you before,

when they open up the Sunday Times Rich List, and there he is with the Queen. Yeah. Above the queen. Above the queen. Yeah. On the same page. It's, it was, it's extraordinary.

And then his wife saying, why did you do that? And it was all, he was all about the big I am showing off, wasn't he? He loved, he did love it. Definitely. You know, I think the way that we've arched, the character and Neil our writer, you know, we, he always wanted to do a second season. And so in the hopes that we would be able to do one in season one, I knew where the story ended. And so I wanted to kind of really track that arc in an interesting possible way.

So I made him as kind of reticent and as small as possible initially, you know, a kind of low-level criminal in Somerset. At the time that the Brinks Matt Gold was brought to him, he was doing gold bullion and he had some jewelry shops in bars. and Bristol. And one of the key components of tracking that story was that, you know, I kind of wanted to start him off as the guy that just wanted a better himself. He was from Solly Hole and grew up next to a dump and he was a child of eight, I think,

fatherless, his dad was a drunk and was a potential kind of peeky blinder, although that was probably nonsense. but he was so poor that he would be given free shoes from the council because they couldn't afford any. And so what starts off is somebody trying to better themselves. He left school at, I think, 13, illiterate, unable to read and write. And what became about betterment, the gold kind of in our story acts as, it kind of infects him and infects all of them.

There's this great shot at the beginning of his first. as they were seen where the gold kind of glints off his into his eyes and from that moment it's this kind of escalation and then collapse and yeah

when we pick it up in season two he's kind of at his zenith and you can see that that want to better himself has kind of turned into into greed and and that

That greed is what undoes him. So that was really bambling long. No, it wasn't at all. It wasn't at all. It was exactly spot on. But he's such a fascinating person because you can, obviously, because you're a brilliant actor,

but you can see it happening. You can watch him from the outside. And you can see all the people around him watching this from the outside. And he's not, he's not really weird thing. He's a bad man, obviously. But he's not nasty. He's sort of, like you say, he gets carried away.

It infects him. He just, he wants all the standing, the social standing. But what is it like to play a real person when family, no, he existed. So we can all read about him, which I did straight after watching last night. And I had done when I chatted you before, I'd read a bit about him. him. But even more so, after watching him for an hour, I wanted to know more about him. I became fascinated. So that's your fault. Thank you very much. But that's, I presume as an actor, you want that. You want people to wonder. Yeah. I mean, that's the biggest compliment you can get. And that's

what you kind of want, because in some ways, the real story is more bizarre than what we've got down. You know, I think there are for Neil to write it, and he's amazing. I mean, he's so diligent and thorough with his research. And he really, I don't know quite now how he creates this really complex story and puts all these components together. And every kind of episode has a really great build and crescendo. And it's, you know, it's a good watch. It really is.

But to compile all of that historical and all of that research, all those events, into an episode is very difficult. But the other hard part is that legally you have to make sure that, you know, you're kind of doing it properly because they are real people and there are real people involved. And there are some things that happened that are alleged that you can't put into a drama because, you know, you don't want to get sued.

So actually, some of the real alleged stories are absolutely. Absolutely bananas that aren't even in the show. It's interesting that you say that John Palmer isn't a nasty man because, I mean, I think actually he really was. Yes, but as what we've seen last night, there's no nasty. He's greedy. He's very smart. He kind of ran two versions of himself.

He was a very personable person. The amount of people that have come up to me since the show, came out being like, oh, I've had a pint with John Palmer, oh, I know John Palmer. You know, he really did put himself about. Really? Mm-hmm. You mix in those, I just find that extraordinary,

that people come up and that's... Yeah. Oh. From all walks of life, in my life, people say that they've met him or have come across him. It actually happened recently after an RTS screening, World Television Society screening. There was a guy there that I've known since I was about

11 who I haven't seen since I was about 18 who said oh yeah I know I know them I know these guys I I said what but how um fortunately I was rushing out so I couldn't ask him but I messaged him um yeah that's insane absolutely fascinating but he was John was so clever because he he had this kind of personal forefront but underneath it all he was running one of you know the what was at the time the biggest criminal organization coming out of the UK and with that you know some bad things happened um there's actually if you want to really know more about him there's a fantastic uh podcast series at the BBC have done on him um I'll have to look it up and remember what it's called but it's um it goes very deep into what his life was about six episodes it's fantastic he how is it

as an actor, playing a real person as opposed to a made-up person. Yeah, I mean, there is obviously a huge amount of responsibility. John Palmer's family is still alive, his children is still alive. And you've kind of got to put that out of your head. I did a lot of research. I read a lot, watched as much as I could. There are clips of John online. He gets stung.

He got stung in real life. and so those clips are on available. And in season one, he did that interview with Kate Adie, which we kind of replicated. Yes. And so I've watched as much as I could. But the launch pad for me, for any actor, it's always got to be the script

because it's always really key to remember that this is our version of John. And also you're not doing an impersonator. Well, that's the other thing is that I don't want to do an impersonation. Yeah. I want to try and capture an essence of, of him and it's an interpretation of him but you know there also has to be

dramatic license but also you know he's he he's from Solihol which is just outside of Birmingham or in Birmingham but he lived in

Somerset for most of his life so he has got this kind of like really odd kind of quite high pitched mangled accent and I mean if I was to do that people would just be like that is the worst Birmingham accent I've ever heard. People would like

it's the worst Somerset accent I've ever heard so for example there we kind of decided that the cleverest thing for us to do was to try and separate him and Marnie his wife from the South London criminal so we're like right that's just based them in Somerset and so I did a kind of

John Palmer version Somerset accent so it's a little bit softer than Marnies so those kind of little dramatic details we change and shift but we hope that the essence of these characters are the things that kind of oh well I absolutely I was

intoxicated by it as I was with season one and I was really pleased I think sometimes if you really love the first season of something you worry just as a viewer because for me television is always always and film and theatre is always about the viewer the audience and and and and and there was a part of me that thought oh what if it's not as good I ate really because you know when I said when I saw you a couple of weeks ago um I said I loved season one so much I just sort of couldn't couldn't stop and I oh I enjoyed it so much so thank you

well thank you for last night. Thank you for watching it it is very scary for us as well because you know the show was it did very well I think the episode one is up to like nearly nine million views, you know, so a lot of people watched it, a lot of people really loved it. And so there is also a responsibility that you know that you don't want to mess it up. But we knew the scripts were good and there's, but we knew we also had to evolve the show tonally, you know, we've gone into the 90s. Well, it feels it. It really feels it. There's a new director, new makeup designer, new DOP, you know, it was a conscious choice to

change the style of the show a little bit and kind of said it more in the 90s and it's kind of a bit more bombastic, it's expanded. The music's good as well. The music's really good. And they don't overdo the music. And I think a lot of things, if they're from the 70s, 80s, 90s, whatever, so it's in the past, they sometimes overdo the music. So you just know this is the time. And they overdo their hair.

It just, oh, it works so well. So thanks very much. And you know, the first three episodes, there's a lot of new characters introduced. So it kind of in some ways feels like a first season. So it's a little slower, you know, you're setting it up. But the last three, four, the last Epps are just fantastic. And I think maybe some of the best of the whole show. There's a certain thing in episode one that I, the yellow van.

I became, I didn't go to the next one. I thought, I'm not going to binges. I'm just not going to minge it because I'll just be up all night. But I became obsessed with the yellow van. You probably can't remember. but there's a moment with the yellow van. And obviously it's a big story part of it. But I became obsessed with the yellow van.

It was, well, that's just what I want to know what the yellow fan is. It was really, it's weird how a strange thing. So thank you for that. But so many other things as well. And I know you're really busy because you're doing House of the Dragon. Yeah. At the moment. You're filming that at the moment.

Filming that at the moment until kind of October, I think. is yeah. So that's done here. That's filmed in Leaveston, which is just outside Watford. It's where they shot Harry Potter, I think.

That's kind of where it's got its reputation. There's a big Harry Potter Museum that I think probably like props up the whole of Watford's economy. It's fantastic. I've never been. Oh, it's really good.

But House the Dragon is a massive beast. Sorry, that's not meant as a pun, but it is a massive beast of a show. worldwide phenomenon that must feel quite something to be walking in I mean you've done huge mighty shows you know if you look at your

your CV but if you look at all the things that you've done and I know you direct and write and all of those things as well which we'll talk about but they're huge big shows you've been a part of quite an odd career in some ways yeah odd

do you think of it odd I don't know well I look weirdly I've heard I haven't looked at my CV. I had to kind of put together a bio for something. And I was like, what have I done? I could tell you. I couldn't remember.

I was like, well, this is really kind of very varied. And there's no kind of clear path. But that's good, isn't it? I think so. I think so. I have no, you know, you don't set up as an actor kind of being like, this is the actor that I am. I still don't really know.

But I was looking at hours going, oh, well, I think, There's a lot of versatility here, I think, and I think maybe I'm more of a character actor. I mean, I don't know, but... Okay, pick what, you're looking at it now. So you're looking at it now. Pick out a couple of... Oh, oh, go on, do those.

Well, for example, I was out with my mate on Saturday night, went to Lido Festi to see Jamie XX, which was great, by the way. And we've met doing a job called Gunpowder, which I played, which is about the gunpowder with Kitt Harrington and I was out with my friend, Ed Holcrofton. I played Guy Fawkes in that. Yeah. He was like a really tough, very large psychopath.

But then I've also, my big break was the film called Weekend, which is directed by Andrew Haig, where I play a gay guy who falls in love over a weekend and it's this really sweet, romantic, very vulnerable love story. Then I've also done Downton Abbey. Which is another massive beast? The real beast. I mean that one, I was a bit overawed.

Oh, really? Definitely. I was really early in my career and I felt a lot of pressure. There was a lot of like Matthew, played by Dan Stevens, just died. And yeah, I was still kind of like whirling around in the fact that weekend had just come out. And I thought weekend had just come out. I thought weekend was incredible. I loved that.

But Downton was my bubble bath. Yeah, it's a very bubble bath theme. It was my bubble bath. And so many of the actors from that show I've interviewed, and they all weirdly say the same thing. So when you said it, I wasn't surprised. It sort of became this, it was like a huge tidal wave. And suddenly, a few of them have said,

you know, you suddenly arrive in America. Oh, my God. It did that. But also then House of the Dragon that you're going. That's another, it's like that, isn't it? Well, I'm older now, you know, and I know myself more. For me. I just mean as show-wise.

But for show-wise, it's, I think, maybe bigger. Bigger, maybe. Maybe. I don't know. In my heart, no. I love it. I love it. I've shifted quite a lot, I think.

And I think people really love downtown Abbey, but people are like obsessed with that. the Game of Thrones world. Yeah. Like obsessed with the law, you know. So I don't know, but the size of the production feels bigger. But I don't know whether you found this. I find that the bigger the thing,

often the people are nicer and simpler. I'm so pleased. You're saying that. So you're enjoying doing House of the Dragon. Loving it. And everyone is just fantastic. There's kind of zero ego, even though it's a third season,

everyone's just so warm and welcome. Oh, how lovely? Matt and Emma Darcy are just two of the kindest people and so warm and welcoming. You know, Matt's great. Even if somebody's in for a line, he goes up to them, shakes their hands, welcomes them in.

He's a really special guy, and Emma does the same. That's really lovely. They're wonderful. But you're in the whole season? I can't say Oh okay You can't tell us anything

But you're also doing something else There's something else about to come out as well I've got two things about to come out Actually yeah I've got another crime thing coming out Which is a Welsh show Which is called Arafin Which is a Welsh language show

So in Wales You shoot each scene in Welsh And then each scene in English So the Welsh version Is already come out And then The English version is about to come out The English version's about to come out,

and the English version is called Mudtown, and that's set in Newport, and I'm playing a Newport crime. Where's that coming out on? That is coming out on a channel called Alibi. Oh, right, okay. And then I've got another thing coming out on Channel 4, which I'm excited about all of them,

but there's this wonderful book called Trespasses, which was written by Louise Kennedy, which is set in Belfast in the 1970s, and it's about a young Catholic girl who meets and falls in love with an older Protestant barrister who I play. And it's an adaptation of that book, and it's just, I'm so proud of it. The scripts are just extraordinary. I mean, the source material is extraordinary, and their adaptation is fantastic.

The director Dawn Shadforth, is an artist and the cast is just mind-blowing. It's Gillian Anderson and this young actor called Lola Petticoor, who is like they're just mind-blowingly talented. Did you see Say Nothing? Yes. Lola is the young Dolores. I know exactly who you mean.

I know exactly who mean. And Gillian plays her, lowless mother. And yeah, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life creatively. It was so challenging. Really? I woke up every morning being like, I don't know if I'm good enough to do this. So you have imposter syndrome?

Who doesn't? Weirdly, you're talking about this to somebody yesterday. And I think most performers, most entertainers, whatever you want to give us a general arc, whether it's a musician, presenter, whatever. We all have it. We go, how come this? Oh, okay, can I do this?

I was talking about it on the weekend, actually. Like, I've kind of only just started to stop apologising for, like, being in an audition. So I... You apologize when you go to an audition? I mean, not literally apologize, but just not feel worthy of being in that room or good enough. It's... And I have messed my... myself up so many times in my career, self-sabotage or just kind of a lack of confidence.

That's, but you know, only now starting to, actors, yeah. Only now I can like feel like I'm walking to room being like, okay, I think I can, I can do this. And even then, you know, I mess myself up. Yeah, but you just said, I think. So you don't, you actually said that without even realizing it. You said, I walk into a room and I think I can do this. I walk into the Roman, and I can do this. Listen, I've been doing this for 2,000 years, and I still, every single time I go into a meeting, I think, I think, but they're going to find me out.

I wonder if you stopped feeling like that, whether then that's the time to stop, because fear is good, no? Yes, yes. But I think most actors, I'd say 99% of the actors that I've spoken to, from the dames to the new, who all are shy or have self-doubt or beat themselves up about something. So it's par and parcel.

Sure. I'm really conscious that also don't want it to sound like I've got, you know, that it's a tiny little violin out. No, it doesn't sound like that at all right. But I think it's right. I think it is part and parcel of it. I think it's probably part and parcel of the nature of being a performer. anyway, and putting yourself out into public space and opinion.

You're always going to be judged. Actors don't want to be judged, and yet they're putting themselves out there to be judged. Actually, presenters, musicians. Anyone in the arts, it's sort of saying, hello, I'm going to put myself out here. Writers, you know, here's my book. I hope you like it.

Or you might not like it. I'm going to take it away from you because if you like, oh, then if you don't like it, then I'm... It's that. It's all of that. And I go on and on about that we're also judgmental. these days. And I think because of social media, there's so much judgment put out there. And yet, we still do it because we love what we do. You like, when you talk about your jobs,

you, and I said this to you the other day, your face, you glitter, you glow, you'll watch this back on YouTube and you'll think, oh, what she means. You, it's like that moment where the, you see the gold in season one in the gold, and the gold shine, the light catches you all, and you're intoxicated by the gold. That's what your job does for you. Definitely. And it always has done, actually. Even when you were thrown out of drama school.

What happened? How come you were thrown out? What did you do? I just should never have made it. Yeah, so I... You don't need to say. No, I'm happy to talk about it. It's part of the rich tapestry of life.

So I... You don't have to name the school. I'm happy to talk about it So I grew up My parents used to work in the little theatre In Powis in Llandrenud-Welds As a town of about 2,000 people I think And they were doing a thing called TIE

Which is Theatre in Education And they just You know We're trying to change the world But I love TIEE I think it's vital I want more in schools now I don't know why it doesn't exist anymore

you know, where it does exist but I wish there was more of it. I think it's essential anyway. So do I. I grew up kind of in a rehearsal room. You know, my primary school was next to where they, where their little theatre company was. So I'd finish school and I'd go and sit in a rehearsal

and just be like looking at these grownups just being silly and playing. This is magical. I want to do that. And just they were just my absolute heroes. the actors in that room. And then I kind of went on this, my parents divorced when I was two,

so they worked in the theatre company even though they were separated. And then my father moved to Cardiff and I ended up kind of going from this really small little country hotel, my mum had this country hotel eventually and this little small country villagey school to the biggest school in Wales and with and it was just a real shock to me

and some stuff happened at home which just sent me on a kind of like quite a wobbly path and I completely lost myself, lost what I wanted to do. How old were you? I was 13 and and it, yeah, things just got quite complicated in my home life and and I kind of, yeah, completely lost myself and my what I wanted to do and acting just kind of dissipated a bit.

And so I didn't actually go to drama school straight away. I was trying to find other things. I was working in restaurants and I was just pretty miserable. Yeah, I was, you know, I was depressed. It was not a great situation. And then eventually one day I was like, right, I'm going to try it. I'm going to go to drama school. And I got in.

I got into Central School of Speech and Drama and I got into Welsh College and I think that was where I went to and I was like, I'm going to get to London. So I went to Central, but I just wasn't ready. I was this very angry, very tight, aggressive guy who like was just struggling and and went to Central and went to Central and the teaching. wasn't very good and I let them know I was drinking too much I was it was just a really bad situation You were lost, you were feeling lost

absolutely lost And they just didn't know how to handle me Which is completely understandable And at the end of the first year They were like, I think you should leave And I remember the head of acting sitting me down and being like, you know, acting isn't for everybody. There are other things that you can do.

And I was like, fuck you. This is absolutely what I want to do. But in some ways it was really good. That helped you to suddenly focus it, maybe. It did a little bit, yeah. And I very cheekily called up Welsh College, Royal Welsh College, where I'd gone in the year before. and they took me in for a coffee.

This is well after they had offered all their places. And the head of acting, this amazing guy called Dave Bond, had a coffee with him. And I told him what happened. And he said, come. Come to. And so I didn't have to stop an audition again. And he took me in.

And I was still all over the shop. Yeah. I really was. I was often in trouble and I would be in his office and he'd be like, what is going on. But he had patience and he kind of believed in me and it was the best thing that, you know. Everyone needs that, don't they? Somebody who believes in them. Absolutely. And there were some teachers there that really didn't believe in me. But there were a few there who really, really did.

and they just cracked me open and interestingly through the work there, I just couldn't be vulnerable in any capacity. And they just worked at me. There was a teacher called Jamie Garvin at the time. Every time I'd walk past the corridor, he'd go, can you be vulnerable yet? And it used to drive me crazy.

But now I know what he was doing. And slowly but surely, I worked through three years just trying to be vulnerable, trying to be vulnerable. And, you know, vulnerable in my life as well. And then my first job out of drama school was weekend playing like the most vulnerable. Yeah, totally. And I was able to do it. And they helped me kind of find myself again.

You know, I was, they helped me be that little boy in that rehearsal room again. who was kind of sweet and soft and gentle. And it's been a journey. I'm nearly 3840 now and I've got two kids and I kind of finally feel like I like myself again. Oh, how wonderful. And the relationships with my family are good. Oh, that's, I didn't want to ask, but that's great.

It's, you know, it's good. It's still complex. Yeah. That's sort of, you know, that's the thing, that people looking from the outside see actors and performers I think, oh, they've got this wonderful life and they meet these people

and they do this and they're in this show when everybody adores them but everybody has their stuff. Everyone has their stuff and actually it does make us what we are all the stuff that we carry around but it sounds like you're still learning

but I still, do you know you did the same thing again that when you said but I'm here and I'm you can't quite work at how old you are 38 to 40 you know I love that you're saying that you're not quite sure how old you are

but that's fine all actors can do that I'm 40 next month oh are you so that's not 38 did I call myself 38? He said I'm 38 to 40 that's fine it's an actor but happy birthday

I just can't remember July the 17 happy birthday thank you I always forget how old they am. I actually normally think I'm older than I am. So saying I'm 38, it's great. You think you're older?

I'm 33 every birthday. I'm sticking to it. Every birthday. Find an age. Might start going backwards. You just, no, find an age and just stick to that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you did the same thing again.

Your face lit up when you talked about now and acting and what it is and went your family obviously as well. Yeah, there's been lots of times in my career where that self-confidence and that self-belief has been really difficult and has eroded away at me. And there's been many times where I've nearly stopped acting because it hasn't been a nice experience. I hope it is now. You say you're enjoying what you're doing now. I feel more ready to be an actor in some ways. I think that

I don't know whether this is for most people but I feel like the happier I am and the more kind of together I am as a human being the better my relationship with everything in my life is including my work I'm a better actor for it you know when weekend came out

I just wasn't ready to be successful I just wasn't ready you know but now I feel ready to do all sorts of things, you know, and feel much more comfortable in my skin. I'm so blown away by anybody who's in their early 20s and it's their first job and they're like, yeah, I'm ready for this. I'm so impressed by them. But they're probably still, you know, of course. Yeah, they're probably not. Of course. They're probably feeling just as insecure as you say, you still feel when you go

for auditions and... Yeah. Here's a weird one I'm going to throw at you, which is what I said last time. you do realise you've got to do comedy. I thought it again now when we're talking. So you came on my Sunday show and instantly, and there was a guy there who used to work in comedy. And he said, why haven't you done comedy? We both did.

And I'm thinking again now, you've got to find a comedy project. Well, not that I've been particularly, it's the bit of particularly funny chat so far. No, but you just, there is this thing about you. I love the way you look, you have this smile and I can tell that there's a, You're very honest about things and that's what makes you a really good actor. But also, I can see you doing comedy.

I just don't think of it. I just don't think of very funny. But funny enough, after you said that, the next day an audition came in for a comedy. No. So I've tried my best. How did the audition go? You know, I did it. I sent it off and I haven't heard a fucking thing.

Oh! They're thinking about it. Is it a big comedy? They're just money. Is it a ha ha ha comedy? Or is it a ha comedy? He's a pretty ha ha kind of guy. Yeah.

Actually, I would love to do it. Obviously, I can't talk about it. Yeah, no, no, don't. He is like this. Whoever gets it's going to be great because he's this kind of like this really cool guy who travels the world and women really, really like him.

But he's deep down. really insecure and he meets this woman who just is not interested in him and it sends him loopy and he's this incredibly needy very desperate guy and it was the scenes were great and also he did he sings a song and starts rapping well it's only a week then you only did it last week yeah yeah exactly it's only a week who knows they're testing other people they're seeing a fit and if it happens it's supposed to if it doesn't

It's not the next show. Absolutely. That's so funny, though. You said last week, I've never been asked for a comedy, and then the next day that happens. I love that. It was good fun to do it.

We forso it. And I thought of you. We foresaw it. We could just tell. But the other, flexing or other muscles, the directing and filmmaking and everything, are those still, is that still a part of your plan? Oh, I love it.

I actually I really love it and it's something that I've always wanted to do my parents were they acted a little bit but they were mostly writers directors and

I think maybe I'm better at that than acting I don't know but I love I stop acting no I won't because I love acting too much but I really really love it. I'm not like a technically amazing director, you know. But what I think I'm good at is creating a space for people to like really thrive in, actors especially. And I've only made one

film, but it did, you know, it did well and for what it was. You know, we had a micro budget and we shot it in like nine days. And it was semi-improvised. And it did really well, you know, did lots of good festivals, got a little cinema release, and it was well reviewed. But it was a while ago now, and I've spent the last six years trying to write my next film, and I've got three projects kind of snailing their way to... What about what you were telling me about when you were 13 and all of that stuff?

Could you not write that? Well, that is something I'm writing. I am writing a play about that. Yeah, that is. that is quite that's actually more difficult than you think of course it is of course it is every time I kind of go in

turns it all up yeah it's quite intense I'm like nearly welling up now just talking about it which is so weird and it's tough and the tough thing that I find about that is that I don't want to like

there's people involved in that story yes yeah yeah and I feel protective of those people of course still even though sometimes they weren't great people, you know. But you can get essence. You can get, you know, little bits. Well, there's a specific dynamic that I really want to talk about.

And I'm writing it. And it's good. It's just intense. There's so much in you, though. And also, you're like your dad. Your dad now as well. So trying to find the time to do. My God, therapy of becoming a parent, right?

It's so intense. Those first few years, I mean, my mother's is only just about to turn four, so I say first few years. I mean, her life. Did you find that? Yeah, yeah. No, but you also never sleep again. You never sleep again.

I'm surprised that you're saying I light up because I feel very, very dull today because the sleep has been terrible. But you never sleep. When you're a parent, and then my younger one's 18, you know, when she goes out, you don't have to wait up. I'm fine. I'm getting an Uber home. Of course you just want to.

know that they're home. It's so, you know... I am going to struggle with that. Well, them going out. Yeah. Is it inappropriate if I just go to the same club and stand in the back? Do you know, sometimes I have, when my elder daughter went to university, oh, fripped!

I mean, it was literally, ah! And I said, do you think I could just, if I just move in near, she just looked at me, she went, no. Mom, no, go back to London. Oh, but Cornwall's love. Cornwall, that's really far away. It was far away. She's back home now because she, yeah, it's fine.

Thank goodness. It does. They go, they come back, but you've got a few years. Although, every single person that said this to me, I wanted to go, oh, shut up. So I can't believe I'm saying it. But oh my God, it goes in a blink of an eye. I know.

Really does. No, it's happening now. I can't quite believe it. That your baby's for? I just can't believe it. Your first baby's for. So starting big school in September? Starting in September.

Wow. Yeah, we're moving to Wales, back to Wales. For me, my wife is Californian, so she is moving to Wales. It's going to be an interesting experience. I say wife, we're not married. It's just easier. Are you going to? Is that what you mean? Are you getting married? That's the plan. Oh, lovely. She knows that. You just told her, yeah. Talk about it on a podcast. By the way, you're getting married. She doesn't know. This is the proposal, actually.

So hopefully she likes it What, getting married? No, Wales. Oh, Wales, okay. I mean, I hope she likes getting married as well. Maybe that's why it hasn't happened yet. I keep asking her, but she keeps something like to know. No, no, no, no, I haven't asked it yet.

See, you can do comedy. She's, yeah, we'd like to. We've just had like a lot of like big life stuff happening one after the other. And I was like, well, that's just, we can wait on that one. That's, you know, I settle down a little bit. But you're going to Wales. when you're so busy.

And my four-year-old is going to go to Welsh-speaking school. Oh, how lovely. Yeah, but neither of us speak Welsh. But you've done a Welsh drama? Yeah, I did all my stuff in English. When they offered it to me, they were like, we'd love you to do it. You don't have to speak Welsh. Which was, I was kind of like, oh, okay.

Because there were actors in it who are normal speakers, who learned it kind of phonetically. And my one mate, Matthew Aubrey, who we went strong school together, he has now learnt Welsh through doing this TV show. But anyway, I've just started to learn. Are you on duolingo? No, because I'm really dyslexic, so duolingo. I'm just grammar.

I don't know, I just can't understand grammar at all. It's like such a head mess for me anyway, even in English. So you're doing it just, you're doing it, just listening? There's an app called Say Something. in and they're doing it and they've got one in Welsh Spanish now so it's just the spoken word so it's just spoken oh lovely idea I think is that it's like it's like you learn through immersion

so you just listen and you listen and then you have to they'll give you a sentence to say and then you've got to try and put it together in Welsh and so you're really having to use your brain and you've got seconds to do it in. I love it. And it's so effective. It's really amazing how quickly you learn. It's good for it.

The sense of achievement's amazing. It's really good. I'm just looking because I'm on day 568 of my duolingo. What are you doing? French, because my younger daughter was doing it for A-level. And her and my husband, her dad, were speaking French to each other. And I thought, I did that so many years ago. And I can, you know, I can say,

Where is the toilet? Oh, no, that sort of thing. So I thought I'd love it. That sort of thing. And a bibliotech and fenetre, my maison. So I just thought, right, I'm going to do it. And I now do it every day. And I love the idea of just speaking it as well.

But when you're in Wales, when you're in Wales, it'll hopefully be easier, yeah. Your four-year-old is coming home, is speaking Welsh to you. Well, that's the thing. Her Welsh is just going to go through the roof, because they'll only speak Welsh to her. No, so she'll, that's fantastic. How lovely.

She's got, you know, she's got four-year-old brain, so it'll just be great. So how many, how much are you doing it a day? How often? I make sure I do each day. 10 minutes? Yeah, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. Sometimes I do a bit more.

And how is? If I'm on a train. Are you, is it working for you? Are you able to like? Yeah, I surprise myself. Cool. It's difficult. But Welsh is really difficult.

It's really difficult. hard. Different alphabet. It's a beautiful language though. I think so. Can you say anything in Welsh? I think so. I can try. So, I mean, I've literally just started this week. Okay, okay. So, sorry to any Welsh speakers out there. So let me see.

Dween moyn daski a marvera shadak, which means, I think I want to learn. No, I think I've said, I want to learn practicing speaking Welsh. Sorry, you've just started and you just... Yeah, that's really impressive. I've done like four days. You can speak that after four days?

Honestly, they're on the say... Do you work with this app? I should, shouldn't I? Yeah, you should. If not, do it quick. Yeah, actually, let me just call them quickly if I can get some kind of commission. No, they on the say something in Spanish,

they've got like a little video. and this woman is conversational in Spanish in a week. I mean, it's like a crash-intensive course. She's probably doing 12 hours a day of this. Okay, thank you. But she can do it in a week. I'm going to download it when you finish. And, you know, it's not like fluid, but it's...

Fluid, fluent. It's very impressive. It's kind of like a bit stop-starty. Okay. But I mean, she started just being able to order. a beer and then she's understanding what somebody was saying to them, saying to her. Okay, thank you. That's

sold it. Thank you very much. Alongside all the shows you're in and everything you're doing. So when does them, when does they all come out? Good question. Do you know? No. So I think, I think

trespasses will come out on Channel 4 around kind of autumn. Lovely. Okay, so soon. And, oh, I want to talk about it so much, but this, I probably can't say too much. But Channel 4, like it so much that they've done something quite special, which I'm not sure I can say. Okay, don't say. Don't say if you're going to get to trouble. But I watch it just for the artistry of the people involved.

And that would be autumn. Like, I've never worked on something that feels so female. And I'm so proud of that. You know, the book is written by a woman. The script is adapted by a woman. The lead characters of women, the directors of women, the producers of women. And you feel it. It feels so powerful in its femininity.

And it feels so the POV is absolutely from this female characters. Oh, I can't wait to do it. And the way that Dawn's direct. it's it's it's beautiful and it you know it we're so used to watching things made by men and men and women see the world differently they just they just do but and I'm cautious not to kind of like talking kind of broad strokes and tropes and cliches but you can feel that there is a there is a different way in which women see the world and dawn specifically the way that she's edited it and it's really really beautiful and delicate and um but powerful i'm so excited by it and i'm

so proud of that aspect of it and i've got nothing to do with that but i'm proud to be involved in that you know and so that comes you're doing it again look you're sparkling again you're sparkling i'm very spark you do sparkle you sparkle tom um tom thank you so much it's such a pleasure to see you each time and long may you fly because you're just you're wonderful thank you so much oh thank you