That Neuroscience Guy - Neuroscience in Virtual Reality

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

In today's episode of That Neuroscience Guy, we welcome Doron Meir, the CEO of Float VR, to discuss how his company combines neuroscience with virtual reality to complete unique therapeutic experiences. 

Hi, my name is Oleg Kurgolson, and I'm a neuroscientist at the University of Victoria. And in my spare time, I'm that neuroscience guy. Welcome to the podcast. So you've probably all heard about virtual reality or VR, and I would imagine a lot of you have experienced or at least tried it out. And there's a perception that VR is largely about video games at this stage, I think. And it can be used for a lot of things that aren't video games, things that have an impact on the brain and how it functions. So today we have another guest. It's Doron Meyer. He is the CEO of FloatVR. Welcome to the podcast, Doron. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So Doron, can you tell us a bit about FloatVR and what it is?

Sure. So what we do is immersive generative mental spaces in virtual reality and I know that's like okay but what is it? So let me tell you a little bit about how it came to be and most people kind of understand it through that. So my background is in animation, I've been an animation director for many years but I'm also I've been enthusiastic about VR for a long time. And the other thing about me is that I love walking as a way of keeping my sanity and coming up with ideas and so on. And, you know, anybody who likes walking knows, I think that doing it in the gym, for example, is not the same. And the reason it's not the same, one of the reasons is that you have this low level stimulus that happens when you're out in nature, you have things happening around you

that kind of take some of your mind, you know, basically occupy your mind a little bit distracting you, but just enough, just enough to, you know, occupy that busy part of the brain that tends to interfere and then that lets the other part of the brain thinks more think more clearly and so during covid when it was a bit harder to you know get get around uh i had this idea of you know out of my love for walking for vr for for uh games like why can't we do this thing in vr where it's basically you kind of float through this space but the space is different every time so that you're never bored you never know what you're going to to to get but you know how you're going to feel and that's kind of where it started uh and it was we never thought it would

be a uh anything about mental wellness or you know anything like, we never thought it would be anything about mental wellness or, you know, anything like that. We just thought it would be creative and fun. But then very quickly, people started telling us, hey, you know what, this is really changing the way I think it's changing my state. It's, it's, it's breaking my brain loops. I have a friend who has pretty severe ADHD. She was like, this is doing things that nothing else does for me i was like okay we have to look into that um and that's when we started talking to people from uh ubc and and so on but this is kind of how it came to be and what it is if you want to imagine anything it's like imagine a walk in the park but the park is is trippy and it's strange and it's not even really a park it's

like you know shapes and things and it's you know like i said it's hard to explain very easy to get when you try it well i i can say that's completely true because i i've done the float vr experience myself as you know and you know it said it was a relaxation thing and very quickly I felt relaxed and it is kind of hard to describe. It's a, you know, it's a graphical visual world and there's a soundtrack to it and you move through that space. And as you're moving through it, you can look around and, and there definitely, you know, it definitely changes your brain state. Now, when we were talking, we talked a bit about directed attention fatigue and attention restoration, and maybe how that that works

with float VR. Can you sort of tell us a bit about what those are and how floats roll in that? Sure. So directed attention fatigue basically says, when you try to do work or anything that kind of needs focus, what you're doing is really you're trying to fend off distraction, whether internal distraction from your own thoughts, external distraction, whatever. And that, it turns out, is a finite resource for people. And when you're depleted of that resource, we tend to just think, before I knew about direct detention fatigue, I was like, oh, I'm depleted, I'm tired. But actually, it's not just that you're tired. There are actually some symptoms

that most people would recognize immediately. Things like irritability, difficulty to make rational decisions when you're in that state. It's like the executive function of the brain is sort of eroded, actually very similar to ADHD symptoms. And people with ADHD, I think it's pretty clear why they get to that state faster

than other people, just because of how difficult it is, how much more difficult it is to keep the focus on something when you're not already super interested in it. that's direction that directed attention fatigue uh there's a whole bunch of stud of research that was done in the 80s uh that has to do with the attention restoration theory and that part is about how to basically replenish that and they're talking about how to use natural environments for that. And they had four characteristics of environments that would do the job better than others. So I'll tell you what they are. The first one is fascination. So the more fascinating, the more awe-inspiring it is, the better, the more restorative it would be.

Then you have immersion, which is, this was in the 80s, so it has nothing to do with VR back then. It was the idea of getting you out of your net, of your regular work environment or life environment, being in a completely different place. environment, being in a completely different place, you have extension, which is the idea that you can move through that environment and explore it, basically. So it's not just one place and it gets boring. And then the fourth one is compatibility, which means that it needs to be good for you, because different people need different things and so because float vr is generative i'll just start i'll just start with the last one because i the compatibility part because i haven't really explained that previously because float vr is

generative because it's different every time it's also very customizable and adaptable and that's one of the things I think we'll talk about in a bit how that connects to uh um to buy a feedback and so on so yeah no I agree uh you know having experienced it myself it's it's fascinating how the environment changes and you can tweak the environment I thought that component's really interesting. Keep going. Sorry, Derek. Exactly. So because it's customizable that way, it's going to be compatible. And the extension and the immersion and the fascination are all built in.

So float VR in terms of attention restoration is the only thing that I know of out there that touches all four characteristics that were identified for that. So basically, if to go right back into the simple terms, it's probably the best way right now that exists to take a 10-minute break in a way that's very, very effective. That's an excellent summary of the effects. So with that in mind, I know there's been a bit of science that's been done with flow in VR. Can you tell us a bit about that? Yeah. So there's a bunch of different directions that the research could go.

And we chose, me and my advisors and our collaborators in Haifa University, we chose anxiety, first of all, because this is a very big problem right now. big problem right now. And, and we have from from the UBC pilot that we did, it was quite clear that float helps that way. So this is what we wanted to look into. So we so they, we made the research, they made the research completely independent, of course. And they had 3030 who tried, who did float VR over three weeks, you know, three meetings over three weeks. Then they have the control group that they compared it to, and they did distraction intervention modalities in CBT. So they kind of basically compared working with a therapist doing those CBT techniques, very accepted techniques that people do work with and flow to the ER.

And what they found is that there was a complete parallel. like when you see the graph, both before and after the session and over the three weeks, the graph looks very similar between those two things. So why is that a big deal if it's the same? I think that's fascinating because in this day and age, it might be hard to get in to see a clinical practitioner or you might even be in a mental state where you don't want to do that but if you have something in your own home is that what you think is that what you were thinking like i think that's powerful and amazing like the ability to sort of hey i'm feeling anxious i've got anxiety coming on and i've got this thing that i can do right away. That's exactly right. So you can do that on your own.

You can basically, the therapist can recommend modalities in FloatVR that you can do by yourself. But I think in a way even more interesting is the idea that because FloatVR does not rely on on language at all it's a visceral thing uh that means that the auditory channel is completely open and that means you can actually do therapy and float and we've been doing that so therapists are working with float and so you get the compounded effect you do have the therapy effect and the float effect together. And we were seeing actual breakthroughs happening from that. I know that that's amazing. I just, I love the concept because, you know, COVID is a great use case of this where a lot of people were home alone and a lot of services weren't available to them. And the fact that you could have this sort of virtual place that helps you with the issues you have,

you know, helps you, you know, get your brain under control. And then you can combine that as well with some sort of online experience, right? And I know when we met and we chatted, this is much better than Zoom, right? Like, you know, with Zoom, you've just got this two dimensional sort of image of the person you're talking to, but with this, it's this 3D world with a voiceover. So basically, the industry, the therapy industry has gone through a major, major revolution, basically, during COVID. 7% of the therapy sessions happened online before COVID. Now it's on 85 and more percent. So everybody's, you know, a lot of people are working remotely, and that doesn't look like it's going done through Zoom or similar things and phone. None of those things are ideal because you can't control the space. So we can have a therapy session.

And meanwhile, I'm looking at things that are distracting me. I'm looking at something that maybe is annoying me. Maybe there are some bills that I have to pay, like all those stress cues around me. bills that I have to pay that I, you know, like all those stress cues around me. Here, we're giving therapists a controlled environment that they can actually do therapy in even better than in the office. And they can control it remotely. We've already built that and they're working that way. So they can control the level of distraction, the the the type of world that you that you

that you spend your time that you do the therapy and they can control that from anywhere in the world i know that's i just find that fascinating i'm gonna change it up and ask you a question that you must have pondered because this is something we've actually discussed on the podcast, is there a danger that people will, like it's almost out of a movie, right? There is a movie, Ready Player One, we talked about, is there a danger that people will just move into a virtual space? Because it's just, you know, it can float,

you know, you're happy, right? You're going, hey, this is calm and relaxing. Have you ever thought about the problem that being captured by a virtual world? Yes. So I will say this. First of all, we are working hard to not entice you to stay longer in float. We are working towards basically encouraging people to do it more frequently, but not to stay for too long. That's just something I thought the listeners would be curious about because it is something that's come up before. I personally think it's a perfect complement to the world,

and that's the way I see it. So I would think it's a perfect compliment to the world and that's the way I see it so I would say this is a way you you make your world better right um I know during during covet I spent most of it by myself and was I won't lie I've been a little bit depressed so to have a tool like float VR would have been amazing right um something to support me a bit working with a therapist or even on my own i think it's fascinating so one of the things that in an interest of full disclosure i'm actively hoping to work with uh doran and float vr we've talked about some projects using brainwaves with float vr can you tell us a little bit about your thinking there? You don't have to get in the nuts and bolts of the brainwaves, but why would we do that?

Like I know why, but I think our listeners would like to know why we would try something like that. one we realized again because it's generative it can be in it can be automatically uh customized through biofeedback and through uh eeg and and and through any kind of of something that um that basically uh detects how you feel and feeds it back into the system and then if you say i want to relax then it could ask your body basically how relaxed are you and then feed it back to the system to to get you to where you want to go and by the way float is not only about relaxation it's also there are energizing modalities focus modalities, places to think more creatively. So there are many, many things that you can aim for. Right. And so we can actually help you through biofeedback through EEG to get to where you want to go.

And most of those things, as far as I know, most of the devices where you use neurofeedback, you kind of have to listen to the feedback and aim to get to where you want to go. But here we can actually feed it back. So you can just say, here's where I want to go. And then it'll take you there. And think about that. You can even script experiences.

So you have a sort of a journey going like from energized to low to more energized. And we're already doing stuff like that without the body feedback in in float so there are many interesting possibilities with that you know it was it i i found it fascinating because i know when i did the experience the first time the first was relaxation and i got relaxed quickly and i thought to myself well maybe it's just because i'm tired i'm at the conference and and and you got a little fatigue but but then I did the Energize one and next thing you know, I was actually perking up. But there's something else to what you said, which I find interesting, which is if we integrate this with brain technology like EEG,

I think there's an interesting piece, which is obviously you can adapt the environment to what the brain is saying. What I think is really powerful with that is someone might not know they're depressed, right? That's a common thing. Some people know very clearly they're depressed, but some people don't. So if float is adapting that, it could actually be beneficial in the sense of helping people deal with things that they're either trying to avoid stating or they're not even consciously aware of, which I find fascinating. I think that idea of something that's reading, it's like you're listening to your true inner self in a sense, right? Because a lot of the prefrontal cortex spends its time basically inventing the world around us. Nope, I'm great, nothing wrong, right? Whereas other parts of the brain might be saying, now hang on a second.

You know, everything isn't great. Yeah. So Doran, what are your thoughts on the future of VR and Float's place in that? Yeah, so I think the VR world is in a very interesting place right now because right now it's in the process of changing from a gaming platform to a productivity and lifestyle thing. It's a very interesting process to see as somebody who grew

up in the, you know, 70s and 80s. And I saw computers happen. And I was, you know, one of the people who, you know, early on had a computer at home. And my parents were like, well, you know, what is this toy thing that you're doing? They didn't care and they didn't want to use it. But then a few years later, they got it at their, at their workplace and they had to use it. And then from there, computers became something that exists, of course, everywhere, because you use it for work, and you use it for solving your problems. And so I have this saying, gaming drives technology, productivity drives adoption. And I don't think the general public is seeing that yet, but I think it's like the undercurrent that's happening. And so within that, and by the way,

I don't think many people are aware of that, but for example, in the US, almost a quarter of the households have a VR headset there, right? They have access. So it is kind of getting to that point where if you get something like float and you know that you need it or your therapist goes

like, hey, do you have VR headset? Because if you do, I have an amazing way to do therapy with you. You're like, oh yeah, I do. Even if you haven't used it in the last month, oh yeah, I do. And you go and get it. And now all of a sudden it's shifted. And so I think we are you know like a few centimeters away from companies starting to buy uh flow sorry not float uh vr headsets to their employees and then from there i think it's going to take a completely different uh direction and float would be you know as a thing that you can use for wellness at work to take you like I said before, the perfect break, wind down at the end of the day, start the day, plan your day, get away from one task and move into another task. All those things prevent irritability between workers because what have

you, because of the directed attention fatigue, all of those things, you know, if you have a VR right there, there's a whole world of possibilities with float. Yeah, no, I do agree with you. I think VR is going to become a bigger and bigger part of society. I was talking with some colleagues about this the other day at the university, and we were reflecting on what teaching was like via Zoom. And the students didn't like it, we didn't like it, because it was just, you didn't know who was listening, you couldn't see the room.

And we imagined a world where you're teaching in VR, right? If you need to, like say there's another pandemic, well, as opposed to, you know, just being in this two-dimensional call where who knows who's listening, you could actually have your students in a virtual classroom. So I agree with you. I think the future is going to contain more and more VR. And I definitely can see the fact that Float has a place there.

Yeah. Remote work is not going away anytime soon because people have moved to remote places during COVID because systems have been developed around that. And so I agree with you. Zoom is, I think we all know what Zoom fatigue is. After an hour, you kind of go like, I want to be anywhere else in the world and that doesn't happen when we meet and we've done that you know in board meeting meetings within float we often meet in the vr space there are spaces like that where you can actually do work together also you can think about looking at data for For example, you know, an Excel sheet, sometimes it's not.

The 2D format is not the best way to see data. All of a sudden, if you can move within the data and see the three dimensions, that's a whole new thing. So I think in all of these ways, I don't think, you know, for those who are kind of uneasy about, you know, are we going to be 24-7 in a headset? I don't think so. I don't think so. But I think it's going to be a tool. You put it on for two hours, three hours, you know, you do what you need to do, you get out. Yeah, no, you know, the reality is the United States was able to put a man on the moon with less computing power than is in your average cell phone, right?

And as technology continues to grow and expand, things like virtual reality are just going to be a part of our lives. I guess the big question is, we've talked about float. I think it's an amazing product. I think the big question is, we've talked about float. I think it's an amazing product. I think the idea is brilliant. And the idea of how you can change your brain states, which is where I see the link to neuroscience and what I asked you to be on. But the biggest thing is, how can people get it? How do, like, can you tell us a bit, tell the listeners,

like, how do they experience float? Sure. So right now we're on quest two and quest three. And but we do plan to expand to PC VR and other platforms and even beyond the VR at some point, or have a companion experiences, experiences that are outside of VR right now. Yeah, if you go to float vr.io, side of VR. Right now, yeah, if you go to floatvr.io, you'll be able to get a link to download FloatVR on Quest. Yeah, and if you're a therapist, by the way, and want to talk about working through FloatVR, go to floatvr.io slash company, and you'll have a form there to connect with us. Well, that's great.

Doran, I've found this fascinating, and I'm sure our listeners will as well. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. This was exciting and great. And of course, everyone, you know where to find us, thatneuroscienceguy at gmail.com. There's links to our Etsy store.

There's links to Patreon where you can support the podcast directly. Of course, none of the money goes to me. It always goes to students in the lab, to graduate students doing neuroscience research. We want to know what you want to know about the neuroscience of daily life. So don't forget, you can send ideas on X or threads at that neuroscience guy, or via email, that neuroscience guy at gmail.com. And of course, the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please subscribe if you haven't already. My name is Olof Kergolsen, and I'm that neuroscience guy. I'll see you soon for another episode of the podcast.