That Neuroscience Guy - Women in Neuroscience with Special Guest Katherine Boere

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

A prevalent problem in virtually all modern science is the disproportionately low number of women in the field. This lack of representation of women in science starts at a young age, and persists into later stages of many STEM professions. In today's episode of That Neuroscience Guy, we invite Katherine Boere, a PhD student in the Krigolson Lab and leader in the Women in STEM movement at the University of Victoria, to discuss the barriers for women in the field, where they come from, and how we can take them down.  Edit: Audio now fixed. Sorry for the problem!

Hi, my name is Olaf Kregolsen, and I'm a neuroscientist at the University of Victoria. And in my spare time, I'm that neuroscience guy. Welcome to the podcast. Well, I'm excited today because we have another guest. We haven't had one for a while, and it's actually a guest that's quite close to me. It's my PhD student, Catherine Bohr. And I wanted her to come on the podcast because there's a really big under-representation of basically everybody other than white males in science. And one of the ones that stands out is the lack of women in academia and in the sciences specifically. So Catherine's a part of the Women in Science Initiative and and I want her

to talk about it and share about this because it's so important. It means a lot to me, and I think it's something we have to take on as scientists and members of the scientific community, and in terms of the public in general, even if your kids are getting into science. So without further ado, Catherine, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Olaf. I'll start by saying it's weird to have my PhD student on the podcast, but Catherine is a bright and shining star. And like I said, she's got something cool to tell us. So can you tell me, what is the Women in Science Initiative? Absolutely. So simply put, I'd say the Women in Science initiative

is an endeavor that encourages inclusivity in STEM, so science, technology, engineering, and mathematics within education and research. However, I think there's kind of an umbrella term really that encompasses a lot of different initiatives within that. So depending on the club or the group that you are specifically working with, the focus might change a little bit. However, overall, I would say it really focuses on equal representation and participation. Awesome. So let's just make this within the context of our own university to start.

So I know you've been a part of some of the activities at our university. In fact, we've hosted some in the lab. Can you give me an example of an activity so people can sort of, you know, relate to what you're talking about? Absolutely. So I mean, here at UVic, we have the UVic Women in Science Initiative. And one aspect of it is the peer mentorship group, which I'm actually the director of. And so each year we have applicants apply and we have mentors and mentees. And these are female students in STEM. And we group them together and they end up working together throughout the entire school year and just working on whatever their own personal goals are. So it can be school related or it can be more personal growth related.

goals are. So it can be school related or it can be more personal growth related. But just allowing women to really foster growth through the younger generations and instilling confidence and dismantling stereotypes associated with genders. So I have so many questions about this. And because, you know, I'm aware of the problem. You know, you can see it just looking at the faculty compliment in science at the University of Victoria. You know, you just need to go to one departmental meeting to see the issue. But let's just start at a simple level. Why do you think this problem exists? Like there's a historical context to this,

obviously, but you know, I'm, I've been hoping for a long time now that we're, we as a society are changing. Do you think that change is coming and what sort of, where are we at and why? Yeah, that's a great question. Um you said, I think women's underrepresentation in science is kind of a complex issue that's been rooted in sociocultural or socioeconomic factors for a long time, particularly in supporting the younger generations in science and getting women more support to get into STEM fields. However, I still think we have a long way to go. I think there are still gender stereotypes that start at a very young age, kind of labeling science things as boy things, which I think can still deter women. I think there's still a lot in media, societal norms, and even like unintentional biases and educators that I think we can still grow around. No, I agree with you completely. Like to me this starts at the elementary age, if not the preschool age, where there still are biases, right?

There's certain toys for girls and certain toys for boys. And the toys for boys tend to be the science-y, gadget-y things. And I think it starts there. But can you give us an example of a barrier that might exist more at the high school age or the university age? And the reason I ask this is, sadly, as a male, I've never experienced these barriers that are out there. Like I know they're there, but I probably don't know and appreciate it as well as even I could. So if you want to share something you've heard about or something personal, don't go too personal. You don't need to do that on the podcast.

But I think just to help educate our listeners about the types of barriers that are out there. Yeah, absolutely. I think at least in my experience and in talking to other female researchers in university, there definitely is a feeling of not being taken as seriously as our male counterparts in research. And I think sometimes women have to work a little bit harder to be taken seriously in research, which can obviously be a bit challenging. My experience in high school, to be honest, was very supportive because I think there is a lot of awareness now of encouraging younger females to pursue STEM and harder sciences. I was a total math nerd in high school and I felt very supported in that. Well, that's good.

Yeah, I, you know, sadly, I think I'm aware of what you're saying about the university environment. And I, as you know, with our lab, at least I strive pretty hard to not do that. But you can see that in other venues. And I think I have seen it. It's a hard thing to face up to because I'm not sure what you'd say. In terms of like resources that are out there, like if we do have a blog so you can send me some stuff and we can post it. But are there resources out there for like say you're a younger woman and you want to get into science, but you feel like you're missing information.

Like what thoughts, things you would recommend? Yeah, so I think it really depends on your age range. Yeah, so I think it really depends on your age range. For younger women who maybe are in high school or even younger, there's lots of women in science summer camps and science camps and things like that that you can easily access on like Googling them. A lot of universities will actually offer kind of, it's kind of like a transition we have one in our engineering program here at UVic where first year engineering female students mentor grade 11 and 12 high school students those who are interested in potentially going into engineering and it's such a fantastic way to show them that it's like it's possible for all of us and that there are a lot of women

who are in those fields and working towards those fields. So I think those are really good ways to do it. At the university level, I would definitely recommend reaching out to like the women in science groups that are at your university. I know that all universities have a group working towards this campaign, which is amazing. Specifically here at UVic, ours is quite large and this campaign which is amazing specifically here at UVic. Ours is quite large and thriving which is exciting and we have a number of different initiatives throughout the year. One of them is a women in science symposium so we even do it's kind of like showcasing a wide range of science fields and anyone can apply to do a poster at the symposium. And yeah, it's just supporting anyone in science really.

So for our, let's call it our high school and younger listeners, probably the best thing for them to do is to investigate what exists at their local university and see and look for outreach activities that reach out beyond, you know, the university student body and within universities. And I did do a little Googling about this.

It does seem like you're right that I couldn't find a university that didn't have some form of Women in Science initiative. So hopefully if you're a university student listening to this, that's another way to get into it. Thanks for sharing that with us because it's such an important topic. And it's something that, well, it doesn't fall completely under the neuroscience of daily life theme that we have. It's something that I think if you're interested in science at all, you really need to be aware of. So I appreciate that.

On a slightly different note, even though you're in my lab, I know all the cool things you're doing. You can share with our listeners, what's like one project you've got right now that you're really passionate about yourself, like really passionate about, something that you really find interesting? Absolutely. So I've talked to you a lot about this, but I'm happy to still talk about it more because I'm that excited about it. I'm really interested in how the brain recovers. And when I was younger, I did a lot more work in traumatic brain injury recovery. And now my interest has kind of shifted into how your brain recovers after a longer endurance activity event. So athletes and what it takes for your brain to come basically back to baseline after you've kind of exhausted yourself pushing hard at whatever your athletic endeavor is.

I think that also relates a lot to burnout and trauma and high-stress situations that most of society is under, particularly over the last few years. And to put this in perspective for the listeners, I want to make Catherine blush a bit here, but the other day she casually mentioned she'd ran 47 kilometers in hilly terrain in six hours. So we're talking about that kind of ultra-endurance activity that leads to burnout.

Do you have an initial thought about what is the mechanism for burnout? Like if we do these massive physical events and, and to frame this for everyone that's listening, Catherine and I have also talked about, it might be a 12 hour shift in the ER, you know, it might be a pilot, you know, flying a plane for a long period of time, or it might be running through the mountains for six hours, but what's the sort of mech, what do you think the mechanism is behind this? Like why do our brains shut down?

Yeah, I imagine it's some sort of protective or coping mechanism, right? When you get that depleted entirely in your central nervous system, is that depleted? I imagine your body's just trying to save what you have, and that might mean like powering down a little bit, right? Yeah, no, it makes total sense. And you're planning to track this with mobile EEG, I believe. That is the plan.

We will see how it goes, but I'm really looking forward to it right now. And you did share some, one, some of your preliminary results with me. Did you see some evidence? I know that it was only you and your friend, but did you see some evidence of, of burnout? Absolutely. I think, um, yes, I mean, it kind of goes along with how you feel or we felt after a long run is you feel quite tired. And I mean, we get ready to get in the car and go for a long drive to get home. And it's like, oh, well, actually, should we even be driving right now? So, yeah, what we found in our pilot data was exactly that.

After the run, our brain was a little bit slower to react and definitely not on it to the same extent we were before the run. Yeah, we can't share that data with you, but basically Catherine was measuring neural responses and they looked normal before the run. And then after the run, they were down considerably and then they slowly climbed back up over time. Any thoughts? And this is just pure speculation because I know you're just embarking on this project, but we talk a lot about brain health on the podcast. Any thoughts about like, if I was going to do one thing to recover, if my brain was, was fried after something like this, what would you suggest? Yeah, I think it depends on how long the event was, but I think number one for recovery is

sleep. All types of recovery is sleep. So I think that's going to be your most important one there for brain health and recovery. But then as we also know, like hydration and good food and all these things also play a very significant role. See, I had to get you to say that, Catherine, because the listeners have heard me say the mantra so many times. I feel like I got to at least pretend there's other people that believe the same thing. Last question for you, Catherine. So why neuroscience? Why are you passionate about neuroscience? Yeah, that's a great question I'm

I kind of alluded to it earlier but um I was when I was younger I was doing some research in traumatic brain injury and what initially inspired that was that I had a very bad concussion myself and so I experienced how my brain was um inhibited basically after that concussion and it really showed me how fragile the brain was but also in a sense how resilient it is which I thought was really, really fascinating and so I kind of decided to look into that and learn a lot more about how that works and it's been a long and kind of windy road but that's how it got me to neuroscience. works. And it's been a long and kind of windy road, but that's how it got me to neuroscience. Well, everyone's got a reason to get into it, and that's a great one. Well, Catherine,

thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast. Any last thoughts you'd like to share? Actually, one more thing about the mentorship pieces or getting into this Women in Science initiative, I think a note for the older women in science, and by older I mean myself even, the more senior people, is we have an opportunity to mentor these younger women and really support and inspire them to want to be in science. And I think it's really important for us to take a step forward in doing that, um, in order to really like get this initiative to keep going and make a real change in the diversity of science. I think that's a great point, uh, and a great call to action. Cause I was thinking while we were chatting about, you know, we sort of talked about the high school and younger kids and we talked about university kids.

And I was thinking about what about after university? But it doesn't matter whether you're a teacher or a university professor and even a mom, you know, if you're in a position to push women towards scientific fields, do it, right? It'd be a great change to see. Yeah, or even just really inspiring women to want to investigate their curiosity, even if it isn't within the STEM field. I think it's important to foster that curiosity and that inspiration in the younger generations. Well, I'm biased, of course, but I think if you're asking a question and there's an answer to me, that's some form of science,

at least if there's a bit of evidence for it. So there you go, woman in science. Thank you so much for listening and thanks for being on the podcast, Catherine. Remember, you can check out our website, thatneuroscienceguy.com. There's links to Patreon where you can support graduate students in the Craig Olson Lab. You can donate a dollar a week, a dollar a month. Every little bit helps. There's also links to our Etsy store where we do have some limited merch out there.

We do have a new T-shirt I've finally got the design finalized for. Hopefully get that out soon. If you have ideas for episodes, remember, you can follow me on Twitter at ThatNeuroscienceGuy and DM me, or you can email us at ThatNeuroscienceGuy at gmail.com. And of course, thank you so much for listening to the podcast. Please subscribe. My name is Olav Krigolson, and I'm That Neuroscience Guy. I'll see you soon for another episode.