That Triathlon Life Podcast - Eric’s Black Canyon 50K Podium Finish ft. Heather Jackson

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

This week, we dive into Eric’s incredible 2nd-place finish at the Black Canyon Ultras 50K trail race! We’re joined by special guest Heather Jackson to break down the race experience, share insights on the mental and physical challenges of ultra running, and discuss what’s next for both of them. A big thank you to our podcast supporters who keep the podcast alive! To submit a question for the podcast and to become a podcast supporter, head over to ThatTriathlonLife.com/podcastForeign Rider X TTL 

Hey, everybody. This week we focused entirely on the Black Canyon Ultras that took place this past weekend. We even had a special guest in the podcast this week, so we hope you will love it. Eric is doing a full YouTube video of this that you can check out. It'll be coming out on Sunday. And our special guest this week will also have a YouTube video coming out. You absolutely must watch both. And if trail running isn't your thing next week, we will be back with our regular triathlon content. for you.

Hey, everyone. Welcome to that triathlon life podcast. I'm Eric Lockerstrom. I'm Paula Finley. I'm Nick Goldston. And I'm Heather Jackson. Awesome. This is actually our second time starting the podcast, so Heather's a pro at it now.

Paul and I are both professional triathletes. Nick is a professional musician. Reason this sounds so great and also an amateur triathlet. So you found your way to our triathlon podcast. Welcome. The bulk of the show is usually made up of questions that we take from wonderful listeners who ride in. By the beginning of each show, we have some pre-show stuff that we talk about. And this week is really exciting because we're going to be diving into the 50K that both Heather and I did last week.

Actually, Heather did 100K. I did a 50Ks. Yeah, it's insane. While dealing with all kinds of adversity. But Heather, we just spent an awesome week in the desert. part of it was this race. You did the 100K. Eric did the 50K. And then part of it was us shooting this last scene of the film that Eric and I are making that you were a star in. Thank you so much for being a part of that. That was so fun. We just had the best time, didn't we? Oh, my gosh. The last week has been the best so far of 2025 by far. So yeah, just to see all of you and be reunited and just share camping and a race experience and the crewing and the pacing and all the different aspects has honestly been. an incredible week. So. Amen. So fun. But first, Eric, this is, we talked about this on the podcast

last week, but now it's a real thing. There's kind of a very cool foreign riders. I'm going to let you talk about it. Eric, please. All right. Sounds good. Yeah, we, the TTL is an apparel company, after all. We've got a lot of other things going on, but we do love to put out some clothes and some coffee mugs and some things basically that we feel like represent how we feel about trathlon and we just like putting smile on people's faces. So the latest thing that we're doing is a collaboration with Ralph Dunning at Foreign Rider. If you're new to the show or just watching YouTube back then, Ralph is the reason that we have our logo. I put out a message on Instagram was like, we need help with a logo. Ralph got back to me. He helped us do the entire

TTR branding and it's been a huge mentor. for me. About the same time, he was starting his company Foreign Rider Apparel. And since day one, I know he was doing that and we were working on TTL, we've wanted to do collaboration products together. We're on to our, and is it our second or our third one at this point? Thing that we've done, and this is the most special one of all. Ralph has this incredibly popular new pair of sweats that are kind of going viral in the sports world. actually in the NBA and NFL, and they feel absolutely, absolutely incredible. And he's been kind enough to let us do a collaboration with it. We're putting TTL logos on it. And I guess I just can't

really speak enough about how special this is to us, especially to me with Ralph, and then how incredible this actual material is. It's a huge step above anything we've ever done with TTL, and we're really excited about it and hope. The time frame to order these is till Friday, which is the day after this podcast comes out. So they're not going to be up forever. They're kind of a pre-order, but they'll be ready quickly. So we wanted to just really emphasize on this particular podcast while the pre-order's open that now's the time to order them. Like we said at last week's podcast, I love the whole suit, like the matching top and bottom. I never thought I'd be into that, but it works. It looks cool. It's comfy. The fabric's nice, as Eric said. And it's kind of crazy

because we're back in Tucson right now. And when TTL started was when we were in Tucson in 2020. So riding on the bike path and running on the bike path, it's just like bringing back all these memories of camping with Heather and Wadi and COVID times. And we didn't even have Flynn yet. So we were just like no dogs were in the picture. But that's when we connected with Ralph for the first time. So it's really cool to be back here, be with Heather and Wadi again, hanging out. And, Yeah, remembering those times. So it's kind of full circle. And we would love if you guys order these.

We know they're kind of expensive, but they're nicer than anything you'll ever buy from a relaxed, you know. What do you call it? App pray leisure wear. Apprae leisure. No, I feel like legitimately when I put it on, my heart rate goes down at least 10 beats a minute.

They're that chill. So, yeah, check that out. Final day to order. this is it and promise you won't be disappointed. And then they're not available after Friday, right, if you have not pre-ordered them. Exactly. No, the way that we're working it is they'll basically make them to order. They'll ship out in two weeks or basically two weeks for U.S. orders. And then Canadians, you're getting a special deal where you can buy this in Canadian dollars

and not pay any import duties. We're going to take care of that for you. But it'll just take one extra week, basically, to ship up to Canada for distribution. And if you haven't seen the photos of Paula rocking it, it's going to make you want to instantly buy it. So check that out. Here, it took some dreamy coast pictures. Yeah, they're awesome. They're awesome. They're awesome.

They look extremely cool. Okay, let's get into the race recaps. Yep. And Ultra, that trail life. This podcast is that trail life. I'm barely going to talk. But we have Heather here for that. She's going to take my role.

A joke was made several times. Yep, definitely. So I'll just shut up and talk about what happened. P-Dog. Well, okay, so first of all, there were two races this weekend. They didn't happen on the same day. Heather raced on Saturday and Eric raced on Sunday. So, Eric, did it help you?

Did you find, like, did you get any race beta from watching the 100K the day before on the broadcast and in person? Yes, I definitely did. And I can get right into that. I think, though, in my mind, what race did we even do? Let's set a little bit of context here. This was the Black Canyon Ultras, 50K and 100K, in the desert, super cool trail. And I was when I was trying to figure out what race I should do at the beginning of this season, reached out to a few people, Heather, included, like, what races are important?

How do I know which ones are like anybody's going to care about if I go to? Is the 100K always better? Is the 50K better? So, Heather, I would think I would turn that over to you. Basically the same question. Why does anybody care about Black Canyon ultras and how does it feel? into the ultra scene. Yeah, I think, well, obviously, I've only been in the trail scene now two years, but

I feel like it's similar to an ocean side where it's kind of the North American kickoff. I think Aera Vipa has proven year and year out that as a race organization, they put on incredible events. I think Black Canyon's huge because the 100K holds golden tickets, three golden tickets for the males and the females for entries into Western states. And coming off of the momentum and hype for that, the 50K in the last two, three, four years has become one of the most iconic 50Ks as well. It's on an incredible trail.

It's point to point. They do live coverage. So I think all of those factors kind of make it the big season kickoff in North America and as big an event as it is. And it gets all the hype, all the coverage. So I think, yeah, to be at it. And again, early February, it's like the season's getting going. So all eyes are on it because there really isn't anything. else going on. Yes, it is a good comparison to say it's like Oceanside. If you're in the

triathlon world, that's what it feels like. Even just being there is like a spectator, crew person. It really does have that same kind of feel. It seems like the 60K in previous years is like, it was like kind of an afterthought of it. But now that the 50K, there's like really fast guys trying really hard. Yeah, I think the 50K, yeah, like I said, even in we've been, this was my third time here, the three years we've been to Black Canyon. The 50K each year has gotten more. and more just competitive, blown up. The fact that they do the live coverage, it's just, yeah, again, season kickoff. Everyone wants to be here.

So many people come in sag or crew or pace on Saturday and then want to throw down themselves on Sunday. So I think the whole weekend is just blown up. And again, I think because Aerevipa does the coverage that they do, everyone can watch and view from all over that it brings that hype. I keep saying hype, but like, yeah, you want to be there. and it's such a fun weekend. So to be there in person.

The coverage is great. There's like drone shods and you can see them. They're out in the middle of like nowhere with no cell service, but there's like Star Links and they have all these ways that people can watch it. It's really, really cool. And even being there, like obviously I can't watch the whole race, but I could have my phone with the coverage and then waiting for Eric and Heather at the aid stations. And you kind of know at all times what's going on because of how good the coverage

and the updates for splits are. almost better than Ironman splits. I agree. I agree. I agree. It's kind of crazy. Let's get some drones out on the Iron Man courses. Full support. Okay, so Eric, back to my original kind of thing. Watching the 100K, can you think of things that you were like,

ooh, that's good to know. I'm not going to do that. Just to be clear. Heather raced the day before Eric. So we got to watch 100K, cheer for Heather. And then the next day, Eric raced the 50K. So they were on different days. And Eric could maybe learn a little bit from

watching Heather and just from, yeah, experiencing it from one day before. Yeah, totally. The first thing and, like, most major thing that I noticed was there's like a cow gate that you have to open two miles into the race or so. And I watched seeing it the day before, you know, like three guys were in a breakaway off the front, two miles into the 100K because, you know, just because. And they got to the gate and had to open the gate. But then it was open for everyone else behind him.

So a gap instantly erased. So, yeah. Not worth it to be the first guy to think. gate. No, I was like, as long as I can see, I'm within like 50 meters or 100 meters of the people who are in front, it'll all come together at the gate. Nice. Okay, great. So you made it to the gate, but that first section is like not very technical, right? It's like flat, fire road and people were hauling ass. Yeah. You like run off at the tracks. You do like a three-quarters of loop at the track, and then you're on asphalt and then you're run across like a field and then you're on

asphalt road for like a mile and then you get on dirt road and it's i don't know what would you say heather like four miles three miles before you hit anything called that would be referred to a single track yeah i think about three to four miles for sure it's pretty even from the road onto the dirt you're on a dirt pretty smooth yeah easy to run gravel road so we are camping at bumblebee canyon which was the first crucible aid station of this race they had i think two or three before that that were not crude, but you could still get water and stuff. But you'd think in a race this long, especially Heather's race, they'd want to, like, sit down, maybe change their shoes, maybe like, you know, have a second, take a water bottle.

But these races have turned into this crazy elite, fast, marathon-type feel where everything is happening so quickly, including the aid stations. None of the men in the 100K stopped at the first. first aid station to, like, even in that they're just grabbing stuff while they're running. And they're doing like a seven plus hour race. So it's just like, I think, an indication of how fast this type of racing has gotten. And like Heather came through the aid stations, I replaced her front bladders, but then she wanted to like walk with me or jog with me while she was chugging her bottle and settled just standing there. So that's like crazy to me how quick and

rush the transition or the aid stations are just to show us how competitive this is. You can't give up any time. Even 30 seconds is potentially too much. Yeah. It's very strange because for a triathlon, we're stopping every mile to get aid. And they're just like, I'm sorry, you're going to blow through mile 32, you know? Like, what are you doing? Yeah, you still got six hours of running or whatever.

Oh, God. Yeah, I would say that was another thing picked up from watching the 100K guys that were trying to run lean on fuel. cooling and everything, ended up paying for it late. So we made the pay. Some of them didn't even wear vests. I know. It was ridiculous. So we like made a last minute decision that Paula would dump water on me at the 20 mile mark, no matter what, if it was warm or cold or anything, better to be cold.

And it's like the desert heats up real fast. Yeah, that was huge and a huge, huge, good decision. Yeah, I think that might have been part of Heather's problem. She was like thirsty. Well, Heather can speak for herself. It was hotter than you thought it would be, right? Heather? You got hot earlier than you expected. Yes. I mean, honestly, came into this race. Last year I went out way too hard and I didn't fuel enough. So all I could think about this year was don't go out too hard and get your fuel in. And so that's pretty much just going through my head the whole race.

And I think those first 20 miles into Bumblebee, I fueled way more than enough. I was taking in four gels an hour plus the carbs in my two. flasks, but it was still cold. It was like 40 degrees when we started and then slowly warming up. But the second we got past Bumblebee, the heat just came quick. And so I think just, yeah, the heat, despite it saying, oh, the high was only going to be in the low 70s is a desert heat and it can creep up on you. Yeah, the sun got so hot. It reflects off the ground too, I think.

Yeah, I feel like the solar radiation is just super high. Yeah. Plus, after bumblebee, you start climbing and then you're just going slow. Yeah. Yeah. If the marathon is 72 degrees, you're like terrible conditions for a marathon way too hot. And we're out there. You guys are out there doing two of them and it's just like, you know, more than two of them.

And we're like, oh, yeah, why 72 is not so hot? No, it's hot. It's still hot. It just feels hotter too, I think there. It's crazy. Maybe two because it starts so cold. And then all of a sudden you go from freezing. I mean, I still like gloves on leaving bumblebee.

And then like two miles later, I was like, holy crap, my hands are like on fire. Like, why do I have these gloves off? Racing in Arizona. So, Eric, do you have any like data on how fast those like fire road miles were? Yeah, yeah, I can just read you off some K-swit. So, Nick, correctively, if I'm wrong, four minutes per K is like 620 per mile. 626 per mile. 626 per mile.

Okay, so that's just the reference point because I'm going to list these all up in kilometers. first K, 334. 337, 358, 3506, 346, 336, 336. No. That's the first 6K. So I was expecting it to go out pretty fast, and I was expecting a 335-ish, and it pretty much happened. And then it happened again. And I was definitely starting to feel that little bit of, like,

okay is this going to settle down how serious are any of these guys some of them look really serious but i don't you know it's hard to tell right um the nice thing was chris leiferman another pro trath it was actually doing it we were running side by side and chatting a little bit um you know between breathing hard and so for some reason him being there gave me a little bit of a like i know this guy is fast he's here we're both maybe this isn't too ridiculous so eric the first time i saw you uh at It was a non-cruable aid station, but I ran with you with a camera for a bit. And you only said one thing to me. You were like, it's really fast.

We were like, yeah, it's really fast, dude. I ran with you for two and a half minutes, and then I didn't stop because I wanted to stop. I stopped because I had to stop. Yeah. Yeah, the crazy thing about this race is that it's predominantly downhill. And you look at it and you're like, okay, sweet, that's fine. And it's, you know, there's not much climbing, but it really, really creeps up to you on you. And especially because, like, you're running fast.

It's, it's like downhill where you can just run really fast and click off. Yeah, I'm looking at around where I saw you, Nick, 339, 323, 339, 339, 334, 335. Yeah, that's so fast. As fast as I've ever run in a 70.3, you know, average for the entire thing. and we're like going down and snaking on trails and stuff. So like smashing your legs apart. And like I'm still, I'm not in the lead. Well, there's three guys that are in the lead that I can just barely see.

They're like 100 yards ahead. And then I'm running behind Chris Myers, who's a top 10 at Western States guy and has won a bunch of 100 Ks. And I'm just like putting my faith in his ability to pace. And then Chris Lieferman is right behind me. And we're just like, okay, I hope we're doing this right. hope somebody blows up and if this is it for the rest of the race, this is psycho. So for context, everybody, Eric somehow in the middle of it all accidentally ran a 244 marathon.

That's the level that we're at here. He's not even running a marathon. It's like a technical up and down trail in the desert and somehow pulls out of 244. So to give context. It's not bad. It's not good. It's really good. And for anyone who listens to this podcast, it's really good.

How much of that trail did you run on, babe? I'm just kidding. It's really good. But yeah, need us to say, it was fast. Nick and I saw Eric at Bumblebee, and then we got in the car. Heather and Wadi got in their car and we drove to the finish because it was only 13 miles or something. Only. It's still a lot. But when he left Bumblebee, he was like fifth or six.

Then we thought, okay, a top eight would be great here. Nick and I get to this aid station where they crossed the road. They hadn't passed there yet. So we pulled over, got out, and Eric is in third, only 30 seconds back from the top two. And Nick and I are losing it. Like we're so excited. He'd gained so much time on them. He's moving quicker.

He could win this whole thing. So we are freaking out. And we get in the car, drive to the finish line, and then it's like an hour of no feedback, really. Like they couldn't, they didn't have the drones out there. They were kind of focusing on the women, which was. fair because that was also a really exciting race and just kind of waiting for Eric to maybe come down the hill first but we don't know so it was the suspense was crazy the broadcast they were talking they were following the women's race mostly and they which is great the women's race was very

exciting but they were constantly checking in and saying we don't know where the men are and they kept mentioning Eric's name because they're like Eric Lagerstrom just gained a minute on them from Bumblebee to what's it called Juliana Mine? Gloriana. Gloria. And so everyone, and like the chat is blowing up on YouTube with like, what's

Eric? What's the triathlet doing? Or like TTF love. And so everyone is just chomping at the bit to see where Eric is in this thing. Like, did he catch them? Did he blow up? What is happening? So Eric, can you, yeah, what were we missing without the coverage?

Well, before bumblebee even, I was still running behind Chris Myers, we had about 5K to come into bumblebee. And I started to feel like I had finally closed down the gap to him and was very comfortable. And I thought I should go around. But then I waited probably another 2K just to like fully settle before asking, hey, could I go around? And that. You have to ask?

Well, I do. There's no room, really. It's a very narrow trail. And so I just like, you know, hey, I'm going to try to come by or if you see a spot where it's wide in the trail, you know, just like heads up. Because, yeah, I mean, there was fire road on this, but there was a ton of the trail where there's no way you could pass somebody if they weren't like trying to stay at the right. Like sticking out at you. Right. Right.

Everything out there is like trying to stick into your leg and come for a ride. It's pointy. So I actually ended up getting ahead of him with about a kilometer to come into Bumblebee and immediately made a wrong turn. I went about 50 meters off course before my watch started beeping at me. And I realized and had to turn around and go back. and I'd put about 20 meters onto Chris at this point, and when I got back on the trail, he was about 80 to 100 meters in front of me,

which kind of set me into this thing that Paula was talking about. I got so angry because I just made this move, and I was really proud of it, and it was going to great, and then I just gave it all away. It was going to have to do work to catch back up. So I got the stuff from Paula at aid station, the one aid station where I could get stuff, got water on my head,

and took off out of there just straight fuming. completely pissed off at myself. And I ran really, really hard. And like the 1K climb out of Bumblebee, which is like the main climb on the course, I caught Chris again, and then I caught the guy who was in third. And so now all of a sudden I was in third.

Like the guy who was in third blew up. Now there were only two guys at the front running together. And when I came into Bumblebee, I think it was, I had 90 seconds to those lead guys. Yeah, that's what we thought. Yeah. So the next section was super fun. Like I said,

it starts with a kilometer long climb. And then you're just pretty much one of the only thoughts on the course, Heather was like considered flat, I would say. Yeah, definitely. But even then it's still like windy and yeah. It's not sustained downhill. It's like up and down,

really, like really quick, super fun, like super technical trail. And I ran that really fast and made, and took back a minute on the leaders. Yeah, I'm actually pretty prompt about this because if you go look at that segment on Strava, look, it's called BCT Bumblebee South. I got the KOM for it.

Yeah, dude. And where's the full leaderboard? Please hold full leaderboard. Second place, Tim Ferrick's, third place, Jim Walmsley, fourth place, Will Murray, fifth, Seth ruling, Hayden Hawks. So there was a couple of people that run it. Seth got fifth in that segment doing the 100K. Yeah. That's wild.

Isn't that just if I can't believe how fast he went on the 100K? Absolutely insane. He was only like 15 seconds behind me on that and they were doing a 100K. Yeah, that's wild. But anyway, brought back all that time, saw Nick and Paula and it just like, I get so fired up. We were freaking out. Yeah. I can count on my, I don't know, with like two fingers.

How many times I've been raising Nick. They can poll over both there watching and I was having a good race and everybody was excited. It was really, really cool. And then I had about 2K until it started just like the entire downhill dragged the finish. And then I think it was like 8K of downhill. And my that, unfortunately, my quads, all of that fast running at the beginning of the race caught up to me. And I was completely limited by feeling I was going to fall in my face every footstep. So the winner, the eventual winner came down the hill.

And then there was like a minute or so And there was no one And we were expecting Eric to come down first So I thought maybe he went off course Or like these guys surely had to be running together Like where is Eric? Where's the guy that was in third? And it was a little stressful for about a minute, 90 seconds

And then Eric comes down the hill in second I was up on the trail With a camera trying to follow him to the finish And when the first guy came by I was like okay so Eric's not going to win But he'll be around the corner and whatever 30 seconds at worst because he was catching them. And then the time didn't come.

And that's when we started thinking they went off trail or someone got hurt until finally Sweet E came around the corner by himself with no one else behind him. And I just hear him like, ugh, ugh, just like in pain as daggers are being stabbed into his quads. And then we get to the flat at the end and I hear him go, oh, thank God. You know? No more downhill. He was begging for flat or uphill.

I can't explain how much that hurt. It was like the only way I can describe it is that they felt like my muscles were tearing in my quads. And do you think there is, like, Heather did twice as much as you. She kept going after that for 50 marque. Do you think, Heather, that's just because you've done a lot more trail running? Like, how do you get stronger quads? Honestly, because I've been trying to pound this in in my training. And I was trying to tell Eric that I don't know that you can replicate hard.

racing and the pounding your quads get in a hard race compared to like going out on a training run and trying to prep yourself because it took me I think two years to finally like my quads feel just weathered not weathered but like seasoned now of like okay like it still happens they get sore but not like those first few races like what eric's describing the first trail race ever did have a lean 100 is a quarter of the climbing that black canyon had or sorry, the descending, the downhill running, and it was the same thing. Just like, and now it's like going down a slight downhill. It's like running down Fields Trail and Bend, like slightly down.

And it was the same sort of thing. So I think, yeah, it's just the hard race efforts and getting however many of those in for however, yeah, they just get better and better. Yeah. Yeah, I felt like I was pretty well prepared at the end. Like all last summer, I was doing a lot of running up the mountains and Ben and back. down, but there's just, unless you commit to having sore legs, like, we're four days away from the race now, and I just feel like tomorrow I might be able to run if I absolutely had to. And you can't just do that in training all the time, right?

Totally, totally. Yeah, it's crazy. It's like the strength training and squats and and eccentric motion, like in the gym. Do you do any of that? Yeah. I've just brought that back in like making, I've always kind of done strength in the off season, but maybe let that go here or there if I didn't have time or it wasn't a priority. And this last winter, it became a priority just because I do think on the trail side of things, like that eccentric loading. A lot of people too will do like their long run and then come back and do like start at 50 single leg squats each leg billed up like 75 or 100. So like your run is done.

You're not taxing your cardio system, but like you come back and you're doing the single leg squats. That's a good idea. You say 50 like 5-0 single-leg squats? Yes, like lots. So you get that burning. You get that like soreness, but. Whoa.

Don't just do that tomorrow. No, yeah. Definitely not. I would be, I would ruin my long run knowing I had that to come. Yeah. don't want the long run to end. So, Eric, I want to hear from you.

It's hard if you're a triathlet who doesn't follow trail running ultras. This is a big race. It's a really important race. And this 50K had really serious trail run specific athletes there and for you to come and do so well and pace it well and come from the back.

And like, I don't know. What were your emotions like when you were sure you were at the bottom? There was no one behind you and you were going to get a top three finish at this race. I really wanted to get a podium there. I thought, like, in a perfect world that was possible,

but I also felt like I could get 10th doing my best. So it was like it was the emotion of, God, I couldn't catch that guy, and I really tried as hard as I could. And, like, my stomach is fine and my breathing is fine. Everything's fine except for just this one-week link. There was that frustration, but then also the, I guess, elation of, well, this is completely what I'd hoped for,

and I'm so close to the front. And I know this guy is like a professional paid by Adidas to run trail and is going to be top five at UTMB, the 50K, probably. Like, that was the validation that I was looking for of, like, I think I did well at Smith Rock, but what does that even mean? I have no idea until I race somebody who, is fast. Yeah, I love it.

And Heather and I were talking about this during her race, about how you want that you don't want a single point of failure, you know, like your legs. Ideally, you want all the points of failure to converge right as you're crossing the finish line. So you've timed it all properly.

You know, you want your motivation and your desire to be the limiter, your desire to suffer to be the limiter, not something like your legs hurting or your stomach being a problem. But in a new sport essentially, that's kind of part of it. Yeah, of course.

And I mean, Eric, somehow is like learning these things while also getting podiums though. Exactly. Totally crushing. Yeah. I won't lie. It would have been amazing to win it.

That was when I left Bumblebee, that was my mission. I was like, I'm going to get all the way to the front. I'm going to fit, like whatever it takes. I feel great right now. I think I fueled and did all the things properly.

But I have to like, remind myself that that wasn't my like super realistic goal going into it. It was a a dream for sure. Okay. So can you give us like a top down view like of your what you would tell the podcast listening audience about what it's like to race 100K? Sorry, a 50k because you've done two now. So you have like you know what the things are. I think the thing that's different. From my opinion really quick before he talks where he gives his opinion is that I think aerobically. Most triathletes could get through a 50K. Technically, it's extremely hard terrain. And I'm not, like, I've seen rocky terrain.

I've seen dirt. I've seen sand. I've done more trail running this year than any other year. But I just did a walk with Flynn for like a kilometer of the course. And it was insane. Like, I couldn't have run on it. So I think that's where people might struggle. It's where Chris Lee Furman, who's an insanely good Ironman athlete,

struggled with the technical, the rocky, the twisty. So I think that's the biggest difference. And anyone can get through it. But I think that your technical will limit you from your aerobic capacity. Until you get more practice and get good at it like Heather. And Eric's good at it. Do you think that's true, Eric? Do you agree with that point?

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I think there's obviously the leg pounding issue that I had. And that's really hard to deal with coming from triathlon. But for sure, just the straight-up ability to cover that ground fluidly rather than having to go so slow that your aerobic system isn't taxed and the technicality is the limiter. Yeah, but Heather, on a scale of 1 to 10,

how technical is this race? Not the most. It's funny. I would say it's up there. I mean, the rocks are different. because, like, you can also have trail races where the rocks are bigger, so you can actually place your foot on them and people are running rock to rock. These are, like, just small enough that, like, they're loose. There's, yeah, they're all over the trail. There's not, like, an even

pattern where, like, it's clear where you should put your foot. So it is pretty, like, it is a tough one. And then, like, Eric was saying, it is very narrow at part. So, like, you're not, you can't kind of, like, move around a bunch there. You're literally going to get stabbed by cacti in places. So, like, it's, you are staying in like a small plane as you're trying to, like, move your body fast. Over these slippery rocks that are sliding all over. Exactly. And it's a lot of switchbacks, a lot of, like, cutbacks. So, like, there's not, besides the first part where it's straight and kind of gravel roads, you're like, you're trying to move fast on, like, shifting terrain and shifting directions.

Yeah. That's what's mind willing to me. When people ask if I'm never going to do an ultra race, that's. that's what is stopping me. It's so much harder than you might think. From my perspective of watching both of you guys race this weekend. But yeah, can we just also talk about the elephant in the room that Nick actually did pace Heather? Yes, thank you very much.

So he actually ran 18 miles of this race. Well, let's give some context here. There was one big climb on the portion that I paced with Heather. And there was an out and back right before it, a mile out, a mile back. And we thought as an insurance policy, that I would not do the out and back with her and that I would just go to the climb and that she would either catch me on the climb

or that I would wait for her at the top. So we don't know for sure if I could have actually hung with her. So the jury's still out. You definitely could have and you were incredible out there. Honestly, some of the best 18 miles I've ever trail runs.

Oh, thank you, Heather. Thank you again. Thank you. It was extremely fun. When I first started running with you, I had two thoughts. I thought, how is she running this fast at mile 32?

Like, this is mind blowing. But I also had the thought of, I think I could do this for the whole distance. But, you know, you don't know until you actually do the whole thing. And it was so fun. And if we're talking about full circle stuff, in 2015, before I even considered getting to triathlon, I was sitting on a hotel bed with my dad in Mexico watching the Kona broadcast. and Heather got fifth in that race that year. I watched Heather before I knew Eric, before I knew Paula.

I was just riding bikes. And now here we are 10 years later and Heather asked me to pace her. It's just, I love this stuff. It's so cool. I feel so honored to have been a part of that experience. Even though, Heather, I know it wasn't the perfect day for you. But even in the trials of tribulations, I feel like we still had a good time. No, honestly, thank you for that, Nick.

And now, I mean, obviously we've been friends for a while now, but now I think the friendship is on a new level because we bonded through trauma. Yeah. A new level of friendship. Yeah. I don't think Paula or Eric have seen me shit my pants yet. So this is. Well, I waited for Heather at the top of the climb. And when she got there, the first thing you said is, sorry, real quick, I got to throw up.

No big deal. So Heather did have some GI issues that we worked through. But by the end of those 19 miles, you were running again and we were running pretty well. Even though your stomach problems weren't over, they were to the point that you could run again, right? Yeah, exactly. Just kind of a rough patch there. And you honestly were so positive through all of it. It was like, yeah, it was so fun.

Despite like being so disappointed in the moment and knowing, okay, watching the lead or not even the lead, but just like the battle to be near the front was gone. It was literally like, how can I get through this right now? My stomach hurts so bad. It was so distended. It was just, yeah, one of those like, like, like it wasn't fitness, wasn't just like, yeah, the pacing. It was made a nutrition error on the day with the heat and, yeah, face the consequences. But to be out there with you and your positive energy and encouraging.

I think, yeah, I'll remember those miles more than if I had just been running them solo, like, continuing on steadily. So I'll never forget that that day with you. Thanks, Heather. Nick is available for hire. Oh, man. After that glowing review. Yes, thank you, Heather. That was really sweet.

That's really sweet. And you did make it to the finish. Just so everyone knows, Heather, like, ran still a very respectable time in all of this because she's a beast of an athlete. So amazing weekend for all the friends here at Black Canyon in one way or another. You asked Eric a question I interrupted with my own answer. He was like, do you think triathletes could do this? So what I was going to say, as my perspective as an age group,

or you said if people do 70.3, they could do this. I don't think the issue is an aerobic limit. I think the issue is that that is so far to run that we would, I think I would have a problem with either my IT band or my ankles or my knees or my hips or something. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah, it's not that I'm afraid of a technical trail. I love a technical trail, but I think at one point I would be half to walk, and then at one point I would not be able to walk anymore.

It wouldn't be a breathing issue. So you guys run so much in your regular triathlon training that Eric actually hasn't had to change his training that much to be able to do well at these races. But I think someone at my level or less fast would have to do major changes to their run volume to get even just to get through something like this. That's my opinion.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If like running and racing it is your goal, not just completing. Yeah, there were tons of people walking this thing. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Similar to an Iron Man where you go to the hotel and shower and come back out and people are still, you can't believe they're still out there. Like those are the heroes. We got back to the campsite, which was like halfway and people were walking through. It's just crazy. Okay, so Eric and Heather, do you guys have a race on the horizon, a trail race on the horizon that you're kind of looking for, that you're comfortable sharing here on the podcast?

Yeah, I think. Well, obviously, my big goals are this summer. So this was kind of, for me, kind of the start to the trail season. So good little reminder of all the lessons ahead of the big ones, the big ones being Western States in June and then UTMB. I'll do the full loop this summer in August. but I think after, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this in the pod, but some undisclosed adventuring this past week. You can talk about it. We're pumping that hard.

People are going to be so psyched. Okay, cool. We checked out some crazy locations. And actually, another Ari-Vipa trail race fits into my schedule in March. So maybe another month, you basically run from Black. Canyon City up to Crown King, Arizona. So it's called the Crown King Scramble. It's a 50K. And I'm pretty sure I'm going to make the drive back up to return to Cleeterville or Oh, that place.

Wait, does it go through there? It doesn't go through there, doesn't it? It kind of winds up through there. The finish is in Crown King. So, Nick, you should come out. March 22nd, I think it is. Dang. I could be talked into that. into the mountains. It's straight up. 50K uphill. Oh my gosh. That sounds crazy.

I mean, that's easier on the legs. Yeah, I mean, aerobically it's hard, muscularly it's hard. Glute tearing instead of quantitarian. That's right. That's right. Okay, cool.

And what about you, Eric? Do you have, I mean, you were looking at this as a maybe, we were surprised you even got to race it, let alone do so well on it. Yeah. Yeah. I just do the hip things that I had after Smith Rock

and just in general in life, I thought this is going to be a low chance of doing it. I had a great PT, and obviously I did it, and it went really well, and my hip is doing fine. So now, um, PT for the win. Oh, hell. Yeah. I love that. Seriously.

See, find yourself a good PT. It's, I just, I mean, I was like, also getting surgery consultation. I had that on the book. So, like, life changing, really awesome. But anyway, I hadn't planned the season out beyond that. The major thing, like my entire focus was doing this race and then working on the film. We just shot the final scene with Heather, like we've all said, and debuting that at Oceanside. I'm going on a very cool trip with Ian Boswell to Patagonia to film for him and specialized.

I'm very proud of that. And then I think my first chance to do a race of my own would be potentially Canyons. Yes. 50K is what Heather recommended, which is like the last. 50K or something of the Western States course? Yeah, it's not exact all of the 50Ks, but pretty close. So yeah, it's kind of the back end. And I'll also be planning to be there too.

So we can have a team reunion. When is it? I'm going to make sure I can go. End of April. Oh, nice. Okay. I love the vibes. It was very fun just to be a spectator at these races.

It is different from triathlon. It does feel different from triathlon in a cool way, not a better way, but in a really cool way. I feel like just to keep relating it to Oceanside, it's like if you just chop the front 20% of people in terms of performance off of Oceanside, and you just had like that level of mental intensity of like the back half where people are just like psyched to be doing it and get through the aid stations and like the volunteer zones are a vibe. And there's just like I feel like there's just a slightly less high percentage of people that are like, I'm out here and I got to get a PR and everything's going to go. go right and I'm stressed about it and you know it's like way more kumbaya yeah totally well still taking it seriously at the same time yeah yeah it's like I can do this and do the best of my myself but I don't have to be a dick and not talk to anybody yeah real quick I'm just going to say

that I'll be putting out a YouTube video this Sunday with like the the full race breakdown and experience and that's going to be super awesome so um and wadi's working on others too you'll have two YouTube videos yeah so if you want like the condensed nitty-gritty with visuals of the racing. Go to YouTube. Awesome. Well, you guys both, we're proud of you both. So sweet.

More to come. Do you guys want to help us answer some questions here? Let's use some questions. All right, here's the first one from Brent. And these are going to be appropriately themed. Hi, team. Congrats, Eric, on the impressive 50K podium. I'm wondering if you could share your gear for the race,

specifically curious about your shorts and your nutrition setup. But I think doing top-to-bottom gear breakdowns for this, and in general, it would be awesome. Thanks. Love the podcast and the rest of what you do. Brent. I'll just do a little disclaimer here is that Eric doesn't have a clothing or a shoe sponsor. This can be sure what you're going to.

Heather can talk about what she's wearing too and she likes what she wears, but she is sponsored. So she doesn't have a choice. For full transparency. Yeah, yeah. Totally. All right. I'll do my best. I just had like a pretty much head to toe Solomon.

except for the toes or hookahs. I wore my favorite Solomon socks, but I tried a few days before the race to run in the Solomon. They're like the S-Lab glide. They're like this crazy shoe that has a red top and a wavy white sole. So that's how you'll spot it. But it's kind of like a super E version of a trail shoe.

And it gave me this crazy blister on my heel, just on the left heel. So I don't know if that was a me thing or a shoe. thing or a what, but I wasn't able to run in that. And instead, I ran in the Hoka tecton X3. X3. Yeah. Very important than to see X3. That's just what my friend at Hoka, Nathaniel sent me. Thanks, Nathaniel. And I ran in, I did like a 32K long run workout and that, so I was really confident that it would get me through the race. I was slightly concerned about it being too, like understable, just like the towbox being very large,

but it ended up, I was able to make it work. Then moving up from there, I had Solomon half tights. I just like half tights. That feels like race mode. Regular Solomon technical shirt. And then ADV5 cents,

cents five, I think is the back that I wore. Not a very big pack, but not their like smallest one. So I could carry two 500 milliliter flasks. No, Yeah, what did you carry? Just those two flasks? Yeah, basically I had two flasks. Each one had the tailwind high carb fuel in it, and, you know, in 500 million years of water each. And then I had a never-second chola-flavored

gel for caffeine. That's it. That's what you started with. And then everything else used aid station stuff? Nope, that's what I started with. And then at the 19.4 mile mark, at Bumblebee Canyon, when I saw Paula, that's when I got. a second another flask that had just water in it and then another flask that uh i replaced my flask so i got one flask with water and one flask with the high carb fuel in it and another gel that's great and just for everyone because i'm sure they're curious how much do you feel like do you know how much you ate overall or what you were doing per hour or anything like that um yeah so it took two hours to do that first 19.5 miles and i would have had 720 calories of high

carb fuel plus 100 calories of gel. So 400 calories an hour. That's a lot. Yeah. A little over 400. Yeah, 400. Yeah. 400. Okay.

And then Heather, what were you, what were you wearing for the race? Ooh. Were you wearing, Heather? Yeah. Who are you wearing? What is that? I was wearing the new 2025 Hoka kit head to toe. Nice.

And what shoes? Different than air. Yes, technically. Slightly different. I think I can say it. Do we have to not say that? Oh, we can't say. No, no, it's fine.

I think it's fine. People know, I think. But Hoka made a mid, kind of a, in between the Tecton X2 and then the Tecton X3, they had the 2.5. So I was in the 2.5s, which very similar to what Eric raced in. So, yeah, tecton X's. I had kind of a more minimal vest on, but similar, just carried two 500 mil flasks. and I had way more gels with me, which might be what also led to some stomach issues later on. But I like your vest a lot.

I like how small and low profile it is. Yeah, it's a minimal one that we just got. I'm trying to think, I don't even know the brand. Hoka makes a vest that they haven't come out with to consumers yet, but some of the athletes have. But it is a little bit bigger, bulkier. I think it was primarily made for UTMB. so you can fit in all your mandatory gear. So it just has a ton of extra stuff that you just wouldn't need for, say, a fast 100K.

So the vests I had on, I think it was a Nathan maybe, but it was one of the first vests we ever bought just online. Like, okay, that looks like you can carry what I need. Yeah. I, like before the race, actually got a new vest that was like the Solomon S Lab. I don't know, but it was like slightly bigger. It's the one that has like the kind of team branding on the, the back. And since I was only carrying bottles, they were like bouncing all over the place because I think it was designed to have more padding with like a vest or a jacket or something.

Yeah, that one's probably made for, yeah, the big, the races where you have to carry. Some of these trail races, there's like a list of stuff you're required to carry, which can be crazy. Right. And you want to carry like maybe a jacket and if it's a mountainous race, right? Yeah, if you're going to be in the Alps and a snowstorm role. and safety. Cool. Thank you guys. Okay, next one here is from Sarah. We're still talking about the race.

Huge congrats to Eric on the 50K second place finish, watched nearly all of the live stream and was so inspiring to see him absolutely crush another Ultra. Question for Eric, but we're going to get Heather to answer this as well. With Ultras being just a single sport and not having the natural mental breaks that come with racing a triathlon, did you have a strategy going into the race to mentally break it up? Did you try to break it up,

as segments between aid stations or 10Ks or something else. Congrats again on the great race. Can't wait to watch the rest of the season unfold. And I'm curious to hear Heather as an Ironman athlete and Eric as more of a 70.3 athlete, if this differs between the two of you. I definitely, I think we were talking about this at some point, Nick, just I never, in the few I've done now, or numerous ones I've done now, never think of it as like, okay, I have 100K to run. It's, I break it down in Black Canyon specifically.

This one is easy to do because it's, you have three crude sections. So I just think of the first one, okay, get to Bumblebee. What's that going to take me? About two hours, 15 minutes or so. Okay, what's the fuel I need for that? And that's all I think about is just that stretch. And then the next one was from Bumblebee to Deep Canyon, the second crude spot. That was only almost 13 miles.

So like a little bit longer, it's on trail. but okay, an hour, 45-ish or whatever it took. So just breaking it down into stretches. I think in Ironman you have, okay, the swim, bike, and run. It's kind of an easy breakdown done for you. And these longer trail races, it's like still finding how you can make it into smaller little chunks. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

This one was a little different because I didn't know the course that well, but I was in the same headspace of like get to Bumblebee, and then I know after that there's a climb, and then I know what the trail's like after that. and then, you know, after that glory on a mind, it's like kind of a lot of downhill to the finish and broke it up that way. Like at Smith Rock was much more, it was even a more diverse course where it was like, get up and over Misery Ridge and then just get back to the start and then get to the bottom

of the main climb, which I know is going to take like 40 minutes. And I at least broke it into like, here, this chunk is a big climb, this is a big downhill. And then here's where I can actually get any food. Okay, so now we know everything about how Heather and Eric race. Well, we don't know everything, but if you want to know more about Heather's race, definitely watch her YouTube that's coming out soon. Wadi's working on it right now. Yeah, Wadi's working on it. With footage filmed by Nick.

Some footage by Nick, yes. I did film a bunch of that. And if you want to see Heather throw up at the top of the climb, you can go and watch that too if Wadi chooses to include that. I'm like filming her throwing up. I'm like, this feels wrong, but Wadi can just use it. if he wants to, I guess. But Paula, now you've crewed twice for these races. And there's for sure people out there who listen

who have to crew for their partner or their friends. Is there something that you're starting to realize is helpful as a crew person? Yeah, it's a deeply satisfactory situation of feeling needed. Like, if you're supporting an Ironman or a 70.3, you can't do anything. You're not involved in the aid stations. You can't really access them at the start of the race.

you're just there fully for emotional support. But I do love that when you're a crew person at these trail races, and I've never run with Heather as a pacer, I've just done like the aid stations. It sounds very simple, but it feels so important. It's like this is a really critical part where she's replacing her nutrition that she needs or that Eric's replacing the nutrition that he needs, and you have to be organized and efficient and standing in the right place, and it all happens in the blink of an eye, but it's extremely fun.

the adrenaline of like waiting for them to come and then they all passed through and I totally love it and if I could if Eric could get a shoe contract that was equal to the amount of our current triathlon sponsors I would just be a crew member. Paula, Paula, coocheath. That's a heck of a new contract. The vibe at these races is so cool. It is so fun. And it helps that like I'm coming to this race.

We're camping. I don't have a race for two months. I'm zero percent stressed. I'm just running. I don't have to swim because I can't. I'm like riding my trainer for an hour or two attached to the storyteller in the dirt. But for the most part, it's just fun.

And Eric and Heather both have great vibes. Actually, I was thinking about this, when Eric had a really nice, good race at 70.3 worlds in St. George. Same thing. Heather and Wadi were staying with us then. So I think this crew has a really nice dynamic. Is that true? Yeah.

Yeah. I don't remember that. I had a big-ass Airbnb. be in St. George. Oh, of course. Oh my God. I do remember that. Our house was jam packed. That was my first time meeting you guys. You got to like vibe with the right people and bring the right energy and you guys both had really big races to do really hard, big races. But somehow we all stayed chill and happy and we're going to get me through it all. So it was really inspiring. I think that if I can even take an ounce of that into my triathlon racing,

would race better and enjoy it more. So it was fun for me to witness, I guess, the enjoyment and the happiness that you two and everyone at this race seemed to take out of this extremely hard thing. So I loved it. Yeah. It was awesome. I do have to say, P Dogg, that trainer ride was, that was commitment. Oh, my God.

They were, like, people running 100. Okay. Running by being like, go Paula. And they're freaking racing. I mean, I was not sticking out like a sore thumb. I was trying to hide behind the van. Yeah. Some people did notice me.

But, I mean, the storyteller can just, you can plug anything into it. So we brought a kicker. I had my TT bike. And I, yeah, it's like no different than riding at home. I mean, except for there, there was like cow shit on the floor. We're going to have to blast that kicker for three hours to get the dust out of it. Yeah, it's quite dusty. The amount of dust.

Oh, my gosh. But it helped me feel just like 5% like a tarat athlete, you know, in this whole region. And if you'd had your gravel bike, you could have gone for a 12-and-a-half-hour gravel ride, no problem. But we had to pick which bikes that we brought down to Tucson for camp. Yeah, I was a bit dirt-locked. I couldn't really ride a road bike. And now that we're in Tucson, I wanted a road bike and a TT bike. So anyway, that's details no one needs.

I just got to tease that, like you and Heather's sister, Becca, you were on the crew team. together for Western States and you guys are coming out with like a crew manual right? Well, I would say I'm like definitely not an expert at crewing. Wadi is the expert and he has everything down to a T. So I just do what I'm told, but I had so much fun with Becca at Western States. I mean, it really, Western States is a beast to crew. It's not anything like this race because there's like a bunch of A station is really hard to get to. You got to take shuttles and you You need to have a crew member that's in a good mood and funny. And Becca is just that.

So that's a whole other thing. She did text me very concerned about how you were outperforming her as a crew. You were taking over. I was like, did you even watch the race? She's like, I was really locked in on P-Dog and her. Yeah, I get really into it. Anyway, this was a super heavy trail episode, obviously, but we do get a ton of questions about trail racing and alternative things that people want to try and to have two of the best trail runners out there on this podcast. Heather, thank you so much for joining us today and for all of your help getting Eric ready for this.

You've been a huge, not just inspiration, but just knowledge source, I think, for getting I'm ready to do this. you guys are literally some of our closest friends and to have you involved in this space now both on the the cruise side the pacing side that and Eric like training and racing side is like it's dream come true for us because yeah to still have this going now that I'm post triathlon and to have friends around and taking part in the same journey and adventures is just yeah I couldn't wait when I heard you guys were coming it was like oh my I was so excited and like you mentioned the vibes before the race after the last four days camping. It's just, yeah, honestly,

the best few days of 2025 already. Same. Eric also is pretty good at every race that he slept in the van for. He's had a good race. Yeah, it's becoming a thing. Sleep in the van, have a good race. It just feels epic. You're like traveling in the van and camping to get there.

And yeah, it's like, that's rad. Not that the van's roughing it too hard, but. No, no, that man is not a repression. Not at all. You're not doing yoga in the hotel room. Yeah. Okay. I think that's all, eh, unless anyone else has anything else.

That is all. And if you ever get around to watching our film when it comes out, which you absolutely should, just remember that this desert scene was shot immediately after this race with both Heather and Eric barely being able to get in and out of their vans. But they suffered through to ride up these endless dirt growl roads for. for your viewing pleasure. Yes. And a gentle reminder about the Foreign Rider

order that closes tomorrow. It would mean a lot to us if you grabbed a TTL thing. I honestly think it would mean a lot to you guys, the people who are going to get this stuff. I just seriously cannot impress upon you how incredibly comfortable it is.

And I think you will like call us and thank us afterwards if you get some. We'll end it right there then. Heather, thank you so much. Next week we're going to be back to more triathlon talk. But thanks for joining us for this more That Trail Life Edition podcast. See you guys.