That Triathlon Life Podcast - FTP tests, do pros actually do them? Paula's brutal Ironman swim set, rest days vs. active recovery, and more!

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

One week out from leaving for Kona, Paula is in the background sketching the donut run poster while we record. We open with a busy weekend of racing, Augusta 70.3, the World Triathlon Grand Final sprint in Pontevedra, and UCI Road Racing Worlds, then get into Team TTL applications opening today, the Kona donut run details, and your questions.This week we discussed:Augusta 70.3 results: Lydia Russell wins, Samantha Skold third, Adele Likin's wrong turn with two miles to go, and what it highlights about race coverageThe Grand Final sprint finish: Matt Hauser wins the race, Vasco Vilaça wins the world title, and whether Matt held his lineAerodynamic gravel bikes: what pro racing demands of equipment and what it means for the regular consumerTeam TTL and TTL Racing Division applications are open now through October 19th, what the Racing Division is, who it's for, and how it's different from the main teamKona TTL Donut Run: Wednesday October 7th, 2pm, featuring malasadasTeam Canada Kona shakeout run: Monday October 5th, 8am, hosted by Lisa Bentley at Big Island Running Co.FTP tests for seasoned athletes: how often pros actually do them, what Paulo Sousa uses instead, and why the scariest version might actually be a QOM climb you care aboutNick's volume experiment: six minutes off a 27-minute climb after a month of Z2 onlyPaula's Ironman swim set: 10x400 on 15 seconds rest, no toys, no alternatives (well, maybe five 800s)Rest days vs. active recovery: how often Paula and Eric actually take full days off Backyard ultras: how long could each of them last, and why laps are their own special kind of sufferingStrength training in a triathlon program: how to stay consistent without it wrecking your other sessionsLooking up race results and imagining where you would have finished First 70.3 Worlds advice: why going three weeks early might be the wrong move, and what Paula's Kona build has taught her about not putting races on a pedestalThe creative process in music and video: prosody, co-creation, and why you can't make art formulaic even when you really want toA big thank you to our podcast supporters who keep the podcast alive. To submit a question and to become a podcast supporter, head over to ThatTriathlonLife.com/podcast

Hey, everyone. Welcome to that triathlon life podcast. I'm Eric Loggerstrom. I'm Paula Finley. I'm Nick Goldstone. Welcome to our podcast. If you're new here, Paul and I are both professional athletes. Nick is a musician, amateur triathlet. We all love the sport. We love a lot of sports. Multi-sport is our thing. So what we do is we talk about what's going on in the triathlon world. Sometimes we'll talk about trail running, swim run, things of that nature. And then most of the show is made up by questions that we get from listeners that write into us. So if that's you, thank you so much. I think we got a lot to cover today. So let's just get right into it. You know, you didn't say that we do on this podcast, which we sometimes do, although it is not our specialty, is news. Do we have news today?

I mean, I think there's a lot of interesting news that happened this weekend. We had the grand final. We had road racing worlds. And we also had Augusta 70.3, which we knew several of our close famine friends that raced and did well. I feel like that's not even all the things. It was just completely overwhelming. Every morning we woke up. Should we go train or should we watch this massive event that's happening? A lot of World Championship finals are happening in the next.

Yeah, next week there's European champs? Yeah, I don't understand that. Why road racing did the World Championships a week before the European champs, but that'd be hard to rally for European champs the week after, hey? And Gravel Worlds is in Australia. Is that next weekend? Two weekends. Two weekend?

Like pray for these cyclists that are doing all those things. Yeah, okay, so already we're getting sidetracked. But I was in a bike shop the other day and I was looking at these kind of some new, top of the line gravel race bikes. And they're really optimizing for aerodynamics and gravel now, which is crazy because these pros are going so fast that they do need aerodynamic shapes. How do you feel about what that means for the general consumer? I mean, as long as it doesn't make for a harsher riding bike, which in the case of my, my crux, the crux 5 feels amazing.

And like, I think I could have a sprint with anybody on a road bike at any given time. But wow, harsh ride. Yeah. But, you know, I feel like my guess is that it's kind of like Kona, how bike brands build triathlon bikes around the demands of Kona. Like, oh, there should be crosswinds. And, you know, weight doesn't matter that. much because there's no steep hills and handling doesn't matter at all. We just need to go straight really well. It's like is unbound, is unbound doing that in the gravel scene or an unbound XL

where you're like, well, it might as well be aerodynamic. The gravel there is like pretty smooth relative to, I don't know, like a road that's rocky or has a ton of washboard, et cetera. I also think the people that are super skilled at riding these races don't need a super cushy ride. And you can get some of the cush with the tires. Totally. And wheels. Totally. For me, now that I have the diverge STR, which like RIP, I don't think they're making that anymore, and the crux five, it's like if I'm going out into unknown territory, I'm taking the diverge STR. And if I know I'm going on a pretty smooth, like with some technicality, and I want this really nimble, racy feel and go really fast, then you're grabbing the crux. But, oh my gosh, if I end up somewhere. Wait, aren't we

supposed to be doing the news right now. Yeah, that's why we're already on a complete tangent. We don't need to talk about bikes first. First of all, we always need to talk about bikes. But let's talk about Augusta 70.3 because this was kind of became an interesting race because of some of other dynamics in triathlon. But to win the women's side, we had our very own friend and former Devo team member, Lidie Russell, took the W.

Smashed it. Liddy had a great race. second was Grace Alexander and then third was current TTL Devo member Samantha Skold she came out of the water kind of that's her weakness

as the swim made her way up a little bit on the bike and then had a great run to run onto the podium Marley Beckett from the TTL divo team was also racing as well as Ali Brower who's a former TTL divo member

so it was just docked with former TTL or current TTL people Allie finished 9th Incredible. And Marley finished 11th. So pretty good race for everyone across the board. Adele.

Adele raced. She's not a CTL Devo member, but she's a friend of ours. Our training partner, friend Adele, was in third and unfortunately took a wrong turn with a couple miles to go. So she dropped back to sixth, but was on track for a podium. So good race for her too. And super sad when that happens just like missing out on things that come with a podium. including prize money. Prestige.

Yeah, she took the turn and then Sam overtook her for third. So I wish there was a live coverage because it was only timing splits every like 5K. Yeah. This is the epitome of this was not like a gold level pro series event, but we were massively invested in it

because we know so many people in it, which is, I mean, that's the entire argument to be made for having good content and like the stuff that the PTO has brought that Iron Man's now doing really well. The more you know the people in the race, you get really psyched on it.

Yeah, and then the men actually ended up racing in Augusta, too, because the pro race in New York was canceled. I think they gave them all $500 if they wanted the option to go to Augusta, get there in two days in race, and a handful of men did that. Jackson Laundrie won pretty dominantly. Ari Klau was second, and then Nick Chase was third, the leader of the Real Tri-Squad. Yeah.

I really, I thought Ari would win, but I guess I didn't know that the Jackson was racing. Jackson's just so good on the bike He puts so much time on people Monster With those dinner plate arrow bars Yeah are those still illegal I feel like didn't

It wasn't there something about They should be illegal It's like a children's sled It looks like a cookie sheet to me Particularly those ones I think Cody Beals has them too They look so So they should be so illegal

Well they look dangerous too Like you look like you're really in those bars Anyway That was Augusta We don't usually do race all recaps here, but because we had so many people racing, TTL people racing, we had to mention it. Also, shout out to Caroline Kaplan who listens to the podcast. She got fourth place. I met her in Nice. If we start calling out everyone who listens to the podcast, we never get. Okay, okay. I take it back, Caroline. No shout out for you. Yeah, you're not kidding. No, just kidding. Good job, Carolyn. Okay, we need to mention other things. Go ahead.

Sorry, sorry. I just, I want to say real quick, one last thing you got to go watch is the finish from Pontevedra. like world triathlon grand final. It's exciting. Both Paula and I immediately went and followed Vasco Velocca. For some reason, we weren't following him on Instagram. I don't know why. Most incredible post-race interview. Yeah, so him and Matt Hauser were in a sprint finish.

Matt ended up winning the race, but Vasco got the world title because he had more points in the end. And we thought the finish was a little... Archie Bargy? Yeah, like Matt kind of didn't hold his line. And in their poster and erased interviews, we expected Vasco to be like, that was a bad move by Matt, kind of cutting me off. But he was so gracious in his own view, like such a likable guy. So if you guys aren't following Vasco, the new world champion for short course, go follow him on Instagram.

He's Portuguese. And just a super likable guy based on his. interviews that we listen to. It's cool. I have two Portuguese guys on the podium. Yeah. Do you think it's actually, you think he could have actually won it? Because as I watched it, Matt definitely cut him out. There's no doubt about it. But I don't, I think Matt had it. Like he was, he had his shoulders in front. I don't know. I mean, I think, depending on my analysis is this whole thing, Matt is like, I'm winning this no matter what. Vasko is like, I'm winning this no matter what, except that's mean. Yeah. Not allowed. Why would you

do that. And like that split moment of hesitation can like can ultimately be the difference, I think. And if you're so, somebody cuts you off so unexpectedly like that, I don't know. Another sprint finish that kind of happened the opposite of that that was really impressed with was Lockland Morton's sprint finish to win the gravel race. And there was like this chican like freaking 100 meters from the finish line. And the way that he almost gets caught out, like cut off, but then freaking sprint's maximum effort. to get to the next corner in front was like really impressive.

So anyway, it could have gone either way but I think at the end of the day Matt really, really, really wanted and needed that win and Vasco just need to get inside the top six. And also if you're used to watching 70.3, you gotta watch this just to see how fast these guys are running.

It makes no sense that they just swam a bike before it. What did Alex Ye run like a 2840? And if you see in the end, he's like, they're dropping him. I mean, obviously he ran pretty fast to catch him, but... He had a totally different race, though, because you had to bridge up to them. Anyway, exciting racing.

You guys should go watch all the recaps of all the short-course racing. I'm sure everyone's already seen these. And if you haven't, you've got a lot of fun stuff for the trainer this week. I've been loving my TTL race kit that I've been wearing all season. Obviously, we all get compliments on them, but people asking every single week when we're opening up, Team TTL applications. Eric, do you finally have a freaking answer for us? I've had an answer for a while,

but we have just been not partaking in the Black Friday-esque race to open our team. Right. I don't know. We feel like if you want to be part of the team, we would love to have you, but this is not a thing where we're trying to just get the most number of people by opening first and just, you know, causing this pandemonium and panic.

October 1st. Oh. Applications open. Nice. That seemed extremely reasonable to me. Reasonable. You're still going to get your kids. a race until easily into the next year.

Which is actually the day this podcast comes out. So as this podcast comes out, you can apply for the team for next year. There is not a rush. We are going to keep applications open until the week after Kona. So I believe that's October 19th. All the information is on the website. So you can go check that out. Jordan, myself, Danny, our website guy, have been spending an incredible amount of time

on that website to make it beautiful and to line up all the questions. And there are going to be two different applications that you can do. So we are restructuring or kind of changing the name, the positioning, whatever, of the TTL development team for 2027. And the goal is to basically make it slightly more inclusive or a more, you could think of it as a more total developmental pipeline. But basically, we're still going to have a few hand-selected professional athletes. You can apply just like on the same application.

but then we're going to also add 10 to 15 what I would call like age group hitters. So the idea is if you are frequently winning or getting on the podium overall at 70.3s, at Iron Man's at local races, and you're taking the sport a little bit more seriously than, hey, I'm here to be a part of the whole vibe. If you're there to be a part of the whole vibe,

that's Team TTR. That is exactly what it's for. That's the whole point. We want to leave the sport better than we found it. but if you're feeling like you're at the point of the end of the race, want a little swagger kit and colors and a little bit more support from the sponsors of the team. That's the TTR Racing Division. I want to be clear that, at least in my mind,

I think in all of us, you can still be serious about the sport and working really hard and training for the purpose of racing quickly and be on Team TTR. 100%. Like that is super a part of the vibe as well. It's not purely just, oh, let's have a, let's jolly around and get to the finish.

There's, you know, there's plenty of us, many of us, I would say almost most of us on Team TTL that are still trying to push our own performance every day. Yeah. Yeah, of course, Nick, let's be honest, you might not make it on the TTL racing division. If we have 15 people put in their applications that have all won 70.3s overall. Do you respond well to bribes? Like maybe like at arrangements, something like that? Potentially. Edipful arrangements. Oh, my God. All right, well, the kits look great. The colors are so cool for next year. So above all else, if you want to look the coolest on the course and have the coolest kit, be part of the team.

There's no real obligation. It's just like being part of the vibe. Coming to the events we put on at these races and feeling like you're part of the community, I think we've got a lot of feedback of when you're wearing that kit, you feel like you get so many people cheering for you on the course and kind of adds to the fun of it. I think that's the thing. Speaking of the community aspect, we also have a very special event coming up

a week from today. It is on Thursday, right? It's on Wednesday. Wednesday. It's on Wednesday. So six days from Saturday. Yeah. So Kona Donut Run.

We are currently in the process of sourcing the malasadas, which are Hawaiian donuts for the donut run, but we decided not to call it the the malasata run. Exactly. Both for graphic design reasons and pronunciation reasons, but it will be the TTL donut run in partnership with Costelli featuring malasadas. Right, heavily featuring. And that will be when and where?

Wednesday at 2 p.m. at Old Kona Airport Beach. We'll have a post about it on Strava. and on Instagram to be, so you can be completely sure when and where it is. I cannot imagine a post will not go up between now and when this podcast comes out with the full details. But basically, if you ordered something as part of the Kona pre-launch before and after the donut run by about an hour, we will be handing out the race week pickups. So you can just lump this whole afternoon into hanging out with us and vibing out. Okay, before we get to questions, Paula, I heard you might have a swim sets with Paula for us.

Yeah, but I actually have to real quick mention one more thing in Kona, because I don't know if I'll be on next week's podcast, but Lisa Bentley reached out to me. She's a fellow Canadian. She's raised Kona 11 times and she's still a big part of the community. There is a team Canada run on Monday morning. Woo! Hey? I told her I would help her get the word out. Unfortunately, we won't be there yet. We fly in Monday afternoon.

But it's on Monday, October 5th, 8 a.m. shakeout run, 8.45, you get a snack. And you get a T-shirt that says Kona on it. Team Canada, Kona T-shirt. 930 team picture. And you can wear the Team Canada shirt then to the parade the next day, the Prade of Nations, if you'd like to go to both things. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. It's at the Big Island Running Co.

and I don't know if you have to RSP, but there's information on Lisa Bentley's Instagram page, and if you want to go and kind of meet your other team Canada teammates at this World Championship. Yeah, we wish we could be there, but we won't be there. But it'll still be fun. So you could go to that on Monday if you're in town already. Yeah, we literally won't be in town.

As far as the swim sets with Paula goes, yeah, I didn't even have to write it down. Is it our swim from today? No. Okay. Do we have the whiteboard? I could write it down because it's funny. Yeah, I would love it if you could write it down. And then we could even do a little visual element here. I don't know where the whiteboards are. It's been a while.

I wouldn't mind doing a doodle today too. I think I can find one. Okay. Please hold. A doodle will be good, especially since this week we're going to do a supporter segment, a video supporter segment for podcast supporters as a little thank you. We are so far into the podcast. We haven't even started the questions yet.

But SwimSets with Paula, cue the jingle, but that I actually don't like. Is it that you don't like it because I did a bad job or is it because you're the one singing on it? I don't know. It's kind of weird. It makes my voice sound weird. But it's fun.

It's fun the way that we created it, right? Okay, maybe I can do a little adjustment. If anyone can adjust my vocals, it's you, right? Yeah, I'll give it a shot. Okay. So I found that this training for an Iron Man and even helps with 70.3 training. I think a lot of us when we're doing swim sets

look for like exciting, interesting intervals and toys and breaking things up in fun ways. And I also enjoy this massively, make swimming manageable. But in the lead-ups to my Iron Man's, this is my second Iron Man build, I've been doing these super boring uncomfortable sets that really replicate what it feels like to do an Iron Man swim. You're going to have two options based on your level of ability. and it literally is one sentence. But you start with a 400 choice, flop around,

get a little blood flow, kind of similar to what you would do in the water if you were given the opportunity to do a swim warm up at the race. And then the set is 10-400s with 15 seconds rest. Oh, no. I thought it was going to be 1-4K.

No. So if that sounds like too much. Nick later looks in pain Or if it sounds like impossible That don't do it You could do 10,300s But that is also hard I gotta say

It's really enjoyable with paddles and pull-bole Yeah, you're not allowed to wear toys I did this set on Friday last week I invited like all of our swim group to do it Everyone was wearing toys Except me Which I was like Okay, I'd rather have the company

wearing toys than doing this alone But it changes the set completely if you put a full boy on or you put paddles on or anything like this. So if you can manage it and you have an upcoming Iron Man, I would strongly recommend doing 10-400s with no toys on short rest

at a fairly uncomfortable pace. You're shaking your head, but this is exactly like doing a five-hour ride with an hour and a half run off the bike. This is a key session. It's an iron match simulation. It is the exact same thing. You have the same mental boner about it Because if you can do this, you're ready.

That's how I've tried to approach them as like, this is a really important thing to be able to do. If you want to do an hour, Iron Man swim, you know? You're right. You're right. And it does. So depending on your interval, of course, it'll take somewhere around an hour. We did them short course meters on 540.

And I was going just under 520. So I was getting 20 seconds rest. So like, aim for that. Aim for an amount of rest where you can get to the wall, take a sip of water, get 10 seconds to catch your breath and then go again. It's not a lot, but it's something to break it up versus doing 4K straight. Okay, do you want me to write this on the whiteboard? I think you had a whole collection of markers.

Where are the markers? Behind the plant. There you go. Can I offer an alternative for the mentally weak like myself? No, there's no alternative. That's the thing. This is the epitome of how bad do you want it? Like, oh, I wish my swim, you know.

Not that bad. Not that bad, I guess. Not that bad. No more complaining about your swim time. these people who have been asking for a swimsuit of Paula. It's not that crazy. You know what's crazy? I'd rather do 40 times 100.

Doing an Iron Man's book. Of course you would. Yeah, we all would. Why not do 80-50s? That's like the same, right? Or 160, 25s. You know what? I'll give you this option, Nick, if you want.

You could do five eight hundreds. I'll let you do that. Is that better? You know what? Actually, I think I would rather do five-eighthundreds. Because I know the 400s so well. that there's like PTSD involved.

Whereas with the 800, I'm like, this is kind of new at least. So do you feel like the 400 is like, is the spot, is just the worst thing? That's the worst spot. Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like running the 800 and track. Like a 400's better and also a 1500's better.

800's pure pain. Pure pain. Because 800 is just the 400, two times. That's basically what you're just hanging on from your life. You're hanging out for your life. The thing that I find interesting about the set is I always, just feel like, so say I'm going, I'm aiming to hold 120s, I'll go out in a 115 and it feels smooth and easy and fun. And then by the end of the thing, I'm going 520, which means the next

following 100s have been slower than 120. And it's so crazy because the effort level increases, but the time decreases. So swimming is so funny like that, you know? I, okay, so question about swimming that I've been thinking about for you guys specifically. I have the same thing happened to where I'll feel really good and fresh at the beginning of like a 400, and by the end, I'm not going as fast as I was when it felt easy, but I'm working much harder. Do you think that is, is that something that also happens to really good swimmers? Or basically I'm like, okay, so maybe it's not so much my swim technique.

I still just need to develop swim fitness. That's what needs to happen here for me to swim faster. Yeah, and this is a good set for developing swim fitness. I would argue if you're a beginner swimmer or an adult onset swimmer who's just training for their first Olympic distance this might be a bit aggressive because in a 400 your form totally falls apart.

I was going to say impossible. 4K is a lot for one of those people. I would say like if you're a very, very fit swimmer and you pace it properly, the first 100 is going to feel easy and the rest are going to feel like slightly more challenging but you should be able to maintain even pace. And if you can't...

It's the kind of set. You got to go to the pool. You got to go slower. Kind of primed up for it, you know? But I don't like using the word key session. I hate that term. I just threw that in there because I know you don't like it. But it is kind of the kind of session where you're like, okay, I got to get like my coffee and my stretching in beforehand.

Yeah, I mean, we did the set with four other professional triathletes and none of them did it as written. No front packers. Well, no, it's just like, if it's not your set that your coach gives you, it's really hard to do it. Oh, yes. Like if someone else is giving us the workout. If someone else came to the pool and they're like, we're doing 10 4s today, yeah, I'd put pull paddles on too if I didn't have to do it. What I was going to say as an alternative is what if every other one was pull paddles. That's what I like to do anyway.

No, that is such a cop out too. God. Like, if you want to do it seriously, don't negotiate toys with me. But if you want to just do 10 4s, sure, put whatever toys on you want. I don't care. No one's watching you. Yeah, I would say 10-4s with the toys is probably better than not doing it at all and just doing 40-100s. But is it better than 10-3s? No, I actually think that doing a set that's 3 to 4 kilometers without touching toys, no matter how you break it up, is way better than putting toys on.

There's the Geneva Convention. Toys make things so easy. It's insane. Like, if I put on pole paddles, I start freezing because I'm not working hard enough. Let's see how many people do this. Hey, if you do this, make sure you tag that triathlon life on your description on Strava. If you do this, we'll send you a $1,000 TTR gift card. Okay, well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, we will not.

This is verbally not a binding contract in the state of California. Okay, that addition of SimSatsat, Paul is finished. I'll come up with something better for next time. I mean, that was pretty, I'd say. I mean, better, if better means more entertaining, yes, but this is the entertaining to whom? This is the meat. I thought this was entertaining for me to listen to,

even though it sounds like a torture. Okay, let's get to questions here. You can submit your questions to the pod at that triathlonlife.com slash podcast, where you can also become a podcast supporter. This week, podcast supporters are going to get a little video in their inbox of us talking about lights, how to be visible. As a runner and as a cyclist, I have some visual aids here in front of me as well. And this week, we also have a special little prize for one of our random podcast. supporters, which Eric uses

random number generated to find. And you're going to get some thump instant coffee. Is that right, Eric? Yes, sir. Just add water. Enjoy. It's very good. Even me. Shockingly good.

Is that the theme? I kind of like the double meaning of shockingly. It gets the jitters sort of. But yeah. Every single person who's ever tried has been like, wow, that's actually really good. And the winner is David Connor.

If you're David Connor, yes, we really did just say your name. Reach out, make sure that your address was right, and we'll get you some of that thump instant coffee. Best of the best. Was Sarah Connor's son named David? Sarah Connor, like from Terminator, not Terminator. What is it? Yeah. It's Terminator.

Yeah. David, if it fits you, if you're the... Then we're very happy to give you coffee. Maybe spare us in the oncoming apocalypse. Okay, first question is from Heather. I stay on top of TDL podcast, day one are here, but just getting caught up on another podcast Paula has been on lately. I was listening to that triathlon hour.

Isn't it just called The Triathlon Hour? Next question. With Paula and Ari. And one of your topics made me really want your thoughts on this question. FTP tests for seasoned athletes. Do you as professionals ever do them? When was the last time you did? How were your zones created and do they change?

I'll be honest, I hate FTP test. I feel like I'm a bad test taker when I take them. I get the need for newer athletes to have a baseline, but what's your thoughts of continuously using them during the season as a benchmark? Thanks, Heather. For those who don't know, an FTP test is a test that is supposed to help you determine theoretically the maximum amount of average power that you can hold for an hour. Now, more realistically, they're just used for a lot of people as a baseline

to then base your training off of whether or not you can actually hold it for an hour is pretty different from person to person, but they used to do it as a full hour. Now, or more recently, it was 20 minutes as hard as you can go, and then you take 95% of that to get your FTP. And even more recently now, people like to do ramp tests on a trainer that is a much less long and brutal and more exact way to measure it. So knowing that, do either of you guys even do these if you do how often and how do you feel about them? Yeah, we have done them.

We were in the habit of doing them, I think, once a year, early season. We would do the ramp test, which you're also hooked up to like an O2 sensor. So it's theoretically finding out when you're switching over into lactate and all that stuff. So you're in a lab when you do this. You're not at home in the garage. Full on lab. Yeah. With like taking blood, you know, getting our finger pricked and everything to get a really comprehensive look at what your body's doing as you increase through the power band. And we didn't really do follow-ups later in the year. I think our coach would like look at how the training's going and see how you're responding and what you're hitting in actual races and

kind of continue to build workouts off of that. I think what Paulo does, to establish our zones is goes into training peaks from like the year or whatever and takes our highest 20 minutes, 60 minute, five minute, one minute power just from training peaks of what we've done in either a session or a race or a QOM attempt. Like sometimes Paul is like find a 20 minute QOM climb and go for it. Instead of just saying go ride your trainer as hard as you can for 20 minutes, I think FTP tests are so dependent on your fatigue levels on the day and your hydration and how you slept. And sure, you could get like a ballpark number for it.

But I think a lot of people get really stressed and worried about testing. And I think Paulo as a coach has never really been big into testing and approaching it in this way of like making it scary. Yeah. When we were in Chattanooga, like two days before the race, I went out on a ride on my own because I wanted to ride up Lookout Mountain. And I just was kind of like, I don't know, feeling a little agro. And I went as hard as I could up the climb.

Pollo saw that on Strava. It was like, this looks like this was pretty much as hard as you could go, right? It said, yeah. It's like, okay, I'm going to, when you start training, and I'll probably use some of those power numbers. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's actually probably harder than I would have gone if you told me to go to the freaking lab tomorrow and put on a mask and have my finger picked every 30 seconds.

That's the thing. I think it is actually kind of smart to do it as a segment or a racey. kind of care about. I always get more out of myself that way anyway. Do you guys feel like, do you have any insight into if other pros treat and think about these kind of tests similar to you?

Yeah, I think most pros probably do them and it's a little bit coach dependent. But we probably test less than the average pro. Yeah. Obviously the Norwegians are famous for testing a lot and seemingly

kind of being into that. I also can't really see them doing like a 20 minute FTP test. Maybe they do. Well, the ramp tests are supposed to be a little more, a little less dependent on your level of fatigue. And there's this thing where if you do a 20 minute test, you kind of, if you're doing it right, you kind of have to already know what your number is going to be so that you can hold that number the whole time. And if you're not going purely off a feel. I think blowing up also gives you some valuable information. It's not like that's a complete loss. Yeah. If you're hooked up to all the instruments and they can see what your, you know, blood is doing.

Totally. I don't know if we want to put this on the podcast. Maybe it's not interesting, but something that happened to me on Friday was very interesting to me, which was there is a trail here called Up the Rabbit Hole. It's very steep. And I had a time from February that was like 27 minutes. And I came back from this trip in Europe where I was doing more volume than I've ever done before, but all at a low intensity.

say like zone two zone three at the most but i did a lot i came back and i was also a little bit lighter and i thought it would be kind of interesting to full send that segment again like i did in february and see if i'm any faster i haven't been doing intensity but i do kind of feel generally fitter and i did this climb and i went from 27 minutes 45 seconds i thought maybe i'd take 30 seconds off i took six minutes off of the time six minutes six minutes that's one third I went from 79th place to eighth place on the, it was like a huge jump. And what's interesting is I didn't feel. What's interesting is I just didn't eat.

And then I got lighter and then I got a PV. I ate a lot. I ate a lot. I ate a lot. But I am lighter. And the lightness, like I kind of looked it up. It could have contributed to like 30, 40 seconds and like pure like physics savings. Six minutes.

You would have to be like 25 pounds. lines lighter. But what I thought was really interesting, and I know everyone's body responds differently to volume versus intensity, but it's crazy how that effort that I did had nothing to do with the levels of effort that I was putting in in the last month, right? It was way, way, way higher. And still, it had benefited from the low intensity, high volume work I did for the whole month. So I thought it was just an interesting kind of anecdotal data point, at least for my own body, but I'm sure there's other people out there too. Yeah. You don't have to do. hard hard all the time.

Yeah. Even to benefit the hard hard stuff. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that's a little bit why training for an Ironman can still benefit your short course racing. It has for me, for sure. Because you're just overall stronger and bumping up your baseline level, right? Yeah. Okay, next question here is from Natalie.

Hey, y'all. How often are you taking full rest days in your week? I came from a competitive crossfit background before endurance sports. And with that, you pretty much had to take a full rest. day off each week. Now that I'm training for long events, I find that doing an easy spin or swim feels like plenty of recovery. What are y'all's opinion on a rest day versus active recovery for long-term training, consistency and injury risk? Natalie. Let me go back at my training peak since the last time I took a full day off. Yeah, not often. Yeah, this is the thing. But I think there's a

difference. Like, I recognize that I personally don't take rest days very often, but I think I should. I think it would be better for me. So you guys may not take rest days. Do you think you're doing it best? I think a rest day could be going for an easy swim. But I think also if people have really busy lives and they're working every day and they have kids, taking a full day off training is totally fine because you're still kind of busy that day. For us, if we do no training in a day, at least for me, there's like nothing to do. So I'm like, I want to go to the pool and I think that kind of helps my recovery, but the days I take fully off are usually travel days where it's like logistically impossible to train or post like Placid. I took a couple days totally off because I just couldn't

do anything. But in general, I think we like to do a movement as recovery versus fully, fully off. And it totally depends on your level of fatigue though as well. If you're really in a whole, I think taking three or four days completely off is only good for you. Or if you're sick or if you're trying to recover from an Iron Man or something, but I don't know. In general, I think we've trained so much in our lives that even easy exercise is sometimes more healing than just sitting on the couch. Yeah. And I don't think you can discount the fact that we don't make an insanely, you know, high amount of money doing this. So we did get into this because we enjoy swimming, biking, and running. And to me, if I have a day off, going for a 45-minute mountain bike spin and ending at a cafe,

FAA that I like, that sounds like heaven. That feels like that will recharge my batteries rather than take anything out of me. So that's like, that seems like ultimate recovery. It's going to have a smile on my face and I got a little bit of blood moving. Yeah. Smart. But we're not anti-full-day-off. No.

Just, I mean, if that's what the heart and the soul wants, then heck yeah, I don't feel bad about it. I think it's so heavily dependent also on how, like, you guys are very fit. You've been training your whole lives, and I think that can work. I think for a lot of people, a whole day off, is. the best thing that they can do for their long-term performance. Okay, next question here is from Page, from Greenville, and it's going to be our supporter segment. We're going to keep it short, and we're also, we've decided behind the scenes here that we're

also going to do a little supporter segment from Kona next week. So if you've been thinking about being a podcast supporter, this is a good time to sign up because you're going to get this stuff only moving forward, not retroactively. So sign up now to be a podcast supporter. We really appreciate it. This is from Page. Hi, tripod. It's getting to be that time of year again.

When the sun rises later and later and sets earlier, therefore I was wondering what kind of light gear you guys use when you're running in the dark. I've been thinking about buying a headlamp, but I'm not sure what else would be helpful for staying visible and safe from cars. Do you have any recommendations for lights, reflective gear, or anything else you like to use?

Best page. So I have a few things in front of me here, but only the podcast supporters are going to see it. If you're not a podcast supporter, we're sorry we'll miss you. We'll be right back. Okay, we're back, and we're going to go right back into questions here. This one is from Austin. Hey, Pod, Austin from Michigan, that's confusing. I found myself keeping up with more endurance races outside of triathlon.

My question is, have you guys seen these backyard ultras, and how long do you think each of you could last, Austin? Now, I don't think we're not answering how much we could physically last. We're answering how much we could, when you consider all factors, could last. For example, I have mental weakness that would give out before my body, I think, for a backyard ultra. And for context, these backyard ultrass are, they're lap-based. So you do, you know, one to seven miles of a lap, and you come back and there's a certain amount of time, and then you keep going, keep going until you cannot go anymore, you don't make the cutoff.

I'm sorry if this is your thing. I just have negative amounts of interest. That's not the question, Eric. It's how long do you think you could last? I think my body would actually break down after like eight hours of this. Oh my God. That's terrible. Like mentally, I think we could all get through it,

but I think that my body would give out before my brain. Or before my mind. I think my mental fortitude. My mental fortitude would give out first. Brain 100% for me. Yeah, that's why you guys don't do Iron Man's. First of all.

Mentally weak. Speak for only Eric. But yeah, it's just, since it doesn't really interest and excite me, it'd be hard to push myself to do that thing. Exactly. This is like the 10, 400s of trail running. Yes, exactly. If you're telling me like go further and further and further into the mountains, then we're talking. Yeah, no problem.

Then I'll go until I can't go anymore. I'll do the PCT. Exactly. But doing laps, it's just. You better have one amazing backyard. That's all I can say. Yeah, you better live in Yosemite. Okay, well, move on quickly because we have a bunch of more questions,

and we've been going for a while already. Okay, this next one is from Artin, and this is going to be a short answer. Hey, T, T, I've got a quick question for Paula. Does she do any strength training? And if so, when and how often? I used to do it religiously two times for a week, but as I increase my triathlon volume,

I just can't bring myself to go that often. and I'm worried that it'll affect my recovery for other sessions. What are your views? Thanks. I hope you smash it in Kona. Arton. Yeah, I have similar problems as when training ramps up and there's tiredness and hesitation about being, because usually when you have time to do gym, it's like on an easier day, but then you have a hard day the next day and you don't want to be sore and tired for it.

I think the worst thing you can do when you're doing gym work is be really sporadic about it because that's when you actually get really sore. If you can have some kind of consistency, even if it's just once a week, then the soreness doesn't really impact you as much because your body's just used to it. If you drop into the gym once a month and go and do a bunch of squats, you're not going to be able to walk the next day. And that's where you get this, you know, Dom's effect that will impact your training. So at least the last couple months, I've been really diligent of doing twice a week.

But I completely relate to this. going kind of off the beaten path with it and not even doing it at all for months at a time, because it is inconvenient. It does feel like another workout in this already crazy sport where you have to train for three sports. Actually, when I was at the gym last week, I was thinking, I am really enjoying being here, and I do like doing this. And I think it's super important. But could you imagine if I was just a cyclist or just a runner? I would do this like five times a week, because you'd have so much extra time. But as triathletes, it's so hard to fit it in unless you mark it as a priority and have it

built into your training plan. Isn't it crazy that you can bike over 100 miles and feel completely fine and then do like three sets of 10 air squats and be not able to move the next day? Yeah. Your body gets good at what you do often. Yeah, which is why I'm saying you should do gym work twice a week. Yeah, yeah. That's great advice.

Even if it's only for 20 minutes. And I think I've said this on the podcast before. If it's impossible to get to a gym or it takes 20 minutes to drive to the gym and then you want to spend an hour there and 20 minutes home, that's unsustainable. Just buy like a really simple kettlebell setup and for your house. 100%. And if you could just spend 20 minutes doing a like super condensed routine at home and be diligent about that.

Of course when you're at home, sometimes it's even harder because you're like pulling yourself off the couch to do it. but it's much more time-efficient. And you could sandwich it with another workout. Like often I'll do my run and then I'll go straight to the gym and do my gym workout because then it just feels like there's not a lot of fluff time in between.

It's just being efficient with it. Do you feel like, let's say you have a four-hour ride, it would be worth doing a four-hour and 40-minute ride and 20 minutes of gym, instead of doing the entire ride? And just, you know what, Today I have to do this amount of exercise, and I'm going to use 20 minutes of that to do the gym. No, because gym's not...

You mean a five-hour ride and take 20 minutes out of it to do gym, right? Yeah, exactly. Just like I'm getting home 20 minutes early and doing 20 minutes of gym for five hours of total exercise. No, because I think five-hour rides have a purpose. If you're training for an iron ride? Four hours and 40 minutes. No, but it's like you're going to take longer than five hours in your race. Do the five hours.

Gym should not replace doing this aerobic activity. And when you go to the gym, it shouldn't feel like. like an aerobic exercise. Like when we used to do gym with Aaron all the time, remember? It was like take a lot of rest between sets. You should not be, your heart rate should not be through the roof. We're not doing like Tabata training here. We're doing like really focused core exercises.

Yeah, well, I'm trying to give people who don't do this for a living a little bit of a mental game so that they actually do the strength work. And I think going between four hours, 40 minutes and five hours of total, that's freaking fluff bullshit. I disagree. Versus doing the air squats. I really love the question Eric and I love the answer from Paula. I think it's like it's kind of epic.

It's like no, you got to do all five hours. Sorry. And you also need to find time to do gym work. I mean, the problem is it's like if you start thinking that way, it gives yourself an out in a lot of circumstances where you're like, I'm supposed to around 90 minutes today. I got to 80. I feel horrible. I'm stopping. I'm just going to do 10 minutes to sit up.

Eric shaking his head. This is some slippery slope BS. No, disagree. Exactly. It's a slippery slope. If you start giving yourself an out, you're going to start giving yourself an out. You're not giving yourself an out. You're giving yourself an in by doing the gym. Also, like, we can all put our f***ing phones away for 20 minutes and do gym instead. That's a better. That's a fact. That's a fact. Why would you cut out your key long ride of the week? Your key session, you mean? And go to the gym instead of just like pausing Instagram. Anyway, it's, gym is important. But gym should not. take priority over your other training.

But also it's absolutely insane to fit gym in with a triathlon program. So I don't have a good answer. Yeah, I think my answer is pretty good. My answer is don't be a triathlete, be a single sport athlete. If you are a parent, don't make your kid a triathlete. It's crazy. I really like the answer of get off your phone and do the strength work instead of wasting time on whatever social media app.

Yeah, I'm not pretending that that's what I do. I am bad about my phone. but it is a good idea. Okay. Next question here. It's from Alex. ITTLNash, massive year ahead. I managed to qualify for World Champs 70.3, 2027, Chattanooga.

Last coin claimed at Wymouth, UK. Very nice. I'm buzzing, but now totally lost in all that has to be organized and prepared to train and master as much as possible. My question is, you could go back to your first 70.3 World Championship and change just one thing about your. your race preparation and race execution, what would it be? Or your best advice for a first time traveling to a major race. Love the show and hope to see you all there, Alex. Can you even remember,

guys? What was our first one? Our first 70.1 3 worlds? Was it St. George or it was niece, like our second one? The niece was my first. Nees was our first. I can remember holding up the coins. We got them at Indian Wells and Kathy Hall was there. And this was the first time, I think we didn't meet you, but this was the first time you became aware of us. Yeah. And those were for niece. Maybe that was it. It doesn't really matter.

I don't know. I just think it's fun to think of. Yeah. Well, so would you change anything? I mean, I'm thinking of my first world's experience at Topaw. And my answer to this question is, no, I wouldn't even think of it this way because I think the whole thing is about the experience. It's about it coming towards you, not you deciding what it's going to be.

I would change something. and I think it actually fits really well into what I was just thinking as you read this question. We went to Nice three weeks ahead of 70.3 World Championships because we're like, we got to nail it.

This course is technical. We got to get out there and just like ride it every day. And I think we went too early. We put too much emphasis on it. We got too mentally worked up about it. And it's like you're thinking right now, oh my gosh, there's so much to, you know,

calm down. It's another race. It's a big one. but you don't need to like go into 10 out of 10 mental focus mode right now. Yeah, I think the more you can treat a big race, like just another race, is actually like your ticket to doing well at that race in some ways. And I've taken this approach this year for Kona in some ways. Because in my mind, like over my whole career, I thought,

oh my gosh, if I ever go to Kona, imagine a Kona build. It's going to be so epic. It's going to be like, I can't peel myself off the cup. it's going to be. I imagine it being this like monumental transformative experience training for Kona. And now we're leaving in a week and I almost feel like I haven't trained for it yet because it's just been so the same as what I've always kind of done and that what has worked. And of course I'm adding in heat training and like doing things to prepare for those conditions. But the more the youth take a race and put it on this pedestal and change a bunch of stuff and try to do 100% more

than you normally do, that's where you end up feeling burnt out or injured or get there and feel like too much pressure because you've put so much into it. I know, that's what I've come to the realization of training for Kona. And maybe I'm going to like kick myself because I'm like, well, I didn't take it seriously enough. But I am taking it seriously. It's just that I, it's not at all how I imagined a Kona build would be. Yeah, I completely agree. Like she's doing all the things, checking the boxes, like going through the processes that are necessary, but you can only go out the door of so many sessions thinking this has to go perfectly because this race is so important without just those are micro-matches.

I actually haven't thought that a single time. Like this week I did two long rides with intervals. One of them I went out with a friend and he was like, oh, this is your key Kona session. I'm like, no, it's not. I have not said that about any session. No session matters, but every session kind of. matters, you know. I'm not like putting so much pressure on one thing where it has to be perfect. I'm just doing what I always do and they end up, it ends up being good, you know?

This reminds me of what a lot of people, how a lot of people describe achieving these huge, that used to be way out of reach lifelong goals is you think you're going to get there and it's going to be this big arrival moment, like your Paula was saying like you thought this kona build could be something where you can't peer yourself off the couch. But the way to get to those huge goals is to successfully achieve a thousand micro goals along the way. That's how these things usually work. You don't just show up to the Olympics and win the final without having done a bunch of training. So it doesn't feel so big because you've been building up your fitness to allow yourself to do these sessions your whole life.

So you get to this Kona build and it's like, yeah, well, of course this 100 mile ride isn't going to knock me out. I've been doing stuff like this. Of course this long run is not going to knock me out. I'm going to be able to do it. And so in some ways, you rob yourself of that big, wow, oh my God, I'm doing it moment. But you actually do, that's how you achieve the thing. Yeah, that's a good point. Like if I hadn't spent this year being really consistent with my training and my whole life being relatively consistent,

I couldn't have done too big hard 100 mile rides this week. But I finished them. I feel relatively fine. And I'm totally fine the next day. So, yeah, it is just like putting brick. in the wall to use a term that everyone kind of uses. But just to answer this person's question, I don't think that anything needs to be especially different.

If you want to focus on a few things, it's like eat better, go to sleep earlier, and make sure you do your gym twice a week. Like that's kind of what I've made my rules as for the last two months is making those three things a priority, doing less social things. But the training itself has been super the same as always. Yeah, nice. Okay, next question here and potentially our last. There's also a question about my musical process, and I don't know.

I think I could just answer that. I like that question, Nick. I just, it's so irrelevant, it feels. But I was trying to think of how I could apply it to triathletes, but. It doesn't matter. It's an interesting question. I think you should answer it as the last one. Okay, we'll do that one.

Well, maybe this real, we can answer this one really quick because I think it's kind of a yes or no question, and I definitely know my answer. This is from Ian. Hi, Pod. Do you ever look at race results and try to work out hypothetically where you would have finished? For example, Paula at TT Worlds, would you look and think I would have been 14th in the world based on other people's times? My wife thinks it's dumb that I do this, but I like to romanticize the glory I missed out on. Thanks, Ian.

For sure, I do that all the time. For sure. For sure. Of course. Even when I'm at the race, I'm like, what would I have come if I didn't suck at that? Exactly. Of course. Oh, yeah. Okay. Particularly for TT Worlds. I think Taylor Nib came 12 or 13th. I actually don't remember, but it wasn't as high as I expected.

Yeah, I expected her to do like top five, honestly. But the course was not suited for her really and definitely was not suited for me if I would have gone. It was quite technical. If you watched it on TV, like these cyclists were railing these corners that looked a little. some of them were like over 90 degrees there was road stuff in the road like you had to be really savvy on your bike to be able to navigate this course really quickly regardless of what your power was

so no FOMO I had definitely had FOMO because it was in Canada would have been so cool to be there but I don't think I would have finished in this stupid game I think I would have been around 20th I finished 18th there before in Glasgow I think I would have been somewhere around there

Yeah. And this is not even extrapolating, like, Taylor Nibs obviously way stronger than me. But I think my ability in the TT is better than my ability in triathlon. So if you take the gaps that we usually have in triathlon and extrapolate that over a time trial, I think my gap to Taylor might be smaller, relatively. Because I do think I'm for some reason better at like the 30 to 40K thing than I am at 90K. Yeah. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

This is all hypothetical. but that was what I think I would have finished it. Of course. Okay, and then last question here, and I think we could all answer this as a group here because we all have our own creative things as well. I think you should just answer it. Well, I think it's fun if we all talk about it

instead of a monologue here. But this is from A.J. Question for Nick. Love the music you created for Nice at Full Speed, which is the YouTube video that Eric and I put out last week, which is just some fast parts of the 70.3 Nice course descending. And then since then, Eric has also put out another YouTube video, which is kind of

the TTL Nice experience. There's the donut, well, the croissant run in there. We have some pre-race stuff. We have some during the race stuff and some post-race stuff too. Is my bike here? No. Harper was on the couch. You had to get a little spank. You guys, my Kona

bike is coming today. Oh my God. We can't talk about it though. It's Project Black. You can't talk about it. Do I bleep it or do I take it out? Or do I do nothing. No, we can say that. It's fine. Okay, okay, okay, okay. So love the music we created. Great alternative to having a French rapper. To be clear, I would have loved to have a French rapper on it. But yeah, it was kind of like a French house music vibe I went for. Can you explain your creative process behind making that song and for your music in general, AJ? So for context, I also

teach songwriting for Berkeley College of Music for their graduate program. And so we talk about this a lot about where to attack a creative thing. And I'm wondering, Eric and Paul, as creative people, if you relate to this at all, which is, I do think you should be able to, let's say a song, let's say you break it down into lyrics, chords, melody. Let's say you break it down into those three things, which there are more, and there's more nuance than that.

But you should be able to start from any one of those points. That is part of being a creative person, is having, have that flexibility, that creative flexibility. But I do think that the best version of this answer is when you can co-create them simultaneously. Because once you, let's say you have a lyric you really like, well, now you're kind of locked into, you're only open to certain kinds of melodies and you're only open to certain kinds of chords that reflect that lyric well. So being able to mentally juggle these three elements at once and try to get to and synthesize a version that uses all these three together,

I think is the best version of things. And that is usually my personal creative process with when I'm writing music is I don't write a full lyric, I don't write a full melody, and I don't write full chords without considering what the other two elements will be doing and how they relate to that thing. This might be a little bit too advanced for us, Nick.

No, it's not. Eric, so Eric, I'm exactly the same way with video. Can you tell us how your video shooting and editing process relates to that. I mean, I think a really good example of this is that you like to choose the music so that you have something that creates a vibe that you are editing around, right? Yeah. But that music is also affected by the kind of footage that you have.

Right? They work both ways. It's a symbiotic relationship. Yeah, I would say generally as I go into a scene, I have a bit of an idea in my mind what the, energy slash vibe of that scene should be. So I am, depending on what I've been doing recently in the edit, I will go look for music that kind of fits that energy. Sometimes it feels more appropriate to actually start with the first few clips and confirm that I have, the clips that I shot match

the energy that I want to go for. Like, you know, to use the donut run in Nice from our niece vlog as an example. In my mind, like, this is like 90s skate party fun, just like shot on a dad cam. And I want this to just be like the star and the thing that people go rewind because it puts a smile on their face. So I watched the first like five or six clips scrolled through all the footage and like, yeah, okay, Nick shot this super shaky and like moving the camera all over the place and sticking in people's faces. That works. Can I find a song that goes with that? And like I I find a song, I put that there, and I start trying to chop up the clips to match that. It will sometimes happen that I get halfway through the whole thing and I go, you know,

this song just doesn't feel quite exactly right. And I'll go try to find a different song to plug in and maybe have to change some of the timing. The reason I love this example too is like imagine editing the whole donut run scene and then trying to fit a song that matches the cuts of the donut run sing. it's going to be extremely difficult to do that. Well, don't you do the cuts to match the music? Yes. That's my point.

There are a couple of scenes in videos that are some of my favorite though, where I have done exactly that. And I've edited it to an entire song. And then I've just decided, you know what? I don't like the way the song ends or it feels very awkward relative to the song before and after it. And I need it to be slightly different. And I drop in another song and don't make any changes to the shots.

and they don't line up perfectly all the time, and it feels so good in this really cool way. The thing is, is like I do often, not often, but I have had a feeling of like, man, it would be so nice if I could just turn this into a formula because it's so painful sometimes to go through this process of like song versus shots versus back and forth and like,

how does this, and it's so grindy sometimes. And if I could just sit down and be like, edit all things, you know, like put all things on timeline, find music, lay music. I do that now? Yeah, AI could probably do that. But we don't like AI here. And I'm sure if you're like trying to crank out edits as fast as you possibly can,

you could make this formulaic and you could get something that kind of works, but you're robbing the process in a way. And it's like F art is sometimes very painful. And that's what makes it amazing when it works. That's exactly right. Is you cannot distill it down to that process. You can, but I think you are always missing out on an opportunity to find something that,

you couldn't, that you wouldn't have found otherwise. Yeah. And it is uncomfortable to sit in the bottom of that hole with no way out and try to find a way to get out. But it's rewarding and it's what some of the best stuff comes from. Yeah, and just pray for your significant others as they watch you struggle for a couple of days, not getting anywhere. Paula's making her own art right now,

and I think we're going to get a hopefully little visual of it. I'm assuming all those corking and uncorking of pens is going to stay in the edit. I want to give one last thing on this, which is a little impart of songwriting education stuff. And it's a term called prosody that originally comes from poetry. But prosody in songwriting is the process or the feeling in which each element of the song is well reflected and represented in the other elements of the song. So for example, if you have a really sad melody moment, to pair it with a really happy moment in the lyric would be in a appropriate. It would be the opposite of this.

And really well done prosody is when all the elements of the song are telling the same story, almost to the extent with which if you're listening to a song sung in a different language, you might even kind of know what it's about, even though you don't understand the words. Like La Villan Gros by Edith Piaf is a good example of that. We all, you know, even if you don't speak French, you do kind of get a sense of this what the song is telling the story of. So I think it's kind of a cool element. And honestly is the center of what makes good songwriting good

is that these elements are all working together to tell the same story. Love it. All right, Paula. We're about to end the podcast, but do you have something that you could show us? How far away are you from a finished product there? Oh, that's a lot of colors.

Van Gogh. Van Gogh. I don't know. This is not my favorite, but it does also serve a purpose. Okay, let's see. I'm letting people know. Oh, very nice. Yeah, that's good stuff.

We've got the little flour, delays, the donuts, the coffee, and the date and the time. TTL Donut Run, Wednesday, October 7th. Be there. Be there, or be circle. Yeah, do follow and follow along on Instagram just in case any last minute changes have to be made. All right, well, we'll talk to you guys all, not to, I feel like this is not going to be a popular thing to say on this podcast, but we'll see you next next. week from Kona. That's where we'll be reporting from altogether. Whether Paula will be on the podcast or not, it was yet to be determined. We'd like to give her her space to focus and go full Zen before a race. So sometimes that means her not being on the pod. But we'll see.

I like to actually lie in my bed with my robe on and my noise canceling headphones as you guys record the pod beside me. Three feet away from you. That's actually like my guilty pleasure. Yeah. And every once in a while she chimes in and I have to edit it out of the podcast later. Yeah, I'm like, you guys are so dumb. Why would you say that? Exactly. Just kidding. Well, thanks for listening and thanks for sending in questions.

Don't forget to apply for Team TTL, and we'll see you next week. Next year's going to be awesome. Later.