That Triathlon Life Podcast - Heather Jackson joins us to talk pro triathlon, winning ultramarathons, gravel racing, and more!

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

After 7 Ironman victories, 16 70.3 victories, and finishing top 5 at Ironman world championships and 70.3 world championships 4 times each,  Heather Jackson is now winning ultramarathons and gravel races. Eric and Paula have known Heather for many years as a friend and training partner, so we thought it would be fun to have her on the podcast to have a laugh and pick her brain! If you want to become a supporter of the podcast, as well as ask your very own questions for the podcast, head over to ThatTriathlonLife.com

Hey, everyone, welcome to that triathlon life podcast. I'm Eric Loggestrom. I'm Paula Finley. I'm Nick Goldston. And I'm Heather Jackson. Woo! Is that funny? Crowd goes wild. What a fun podcast today. Yeah, I guess I'm just totally distracted now, but our intro is what I should be doing now. Paul and I are both professional triathletes. This is our triathlon podcast. Nick is our great friend, professional music guy.

So the podcast sounds amazing. He also does triathons. And man, I feel like I'm going to need a long time to intro, Heather. So many results. As our longtime listeners know, we usually don't have guests on the podcast and we do more of a Q&A format. But on the special occasion for very special people, we love to bring them in. And especially Heather, who has a super interesting story. A lot of you will know her as a pro triathlete, super-a-eatlete, super-com.

several time, Kona, podium, and a huge inspiration of mentor to Eric and I. But it's recently switched over to gravel racing and ultra running. And she is super freaking good at it. So it's an interesting topic because so many of you triathletes that are listening, I think are curious about making that switch or making that jump or just including it in your triathlon race schedule. So when I put out a call out for questions to Heather, we had hundreds of people curious about how she's made it. and done it so successfully. So we're excited to chat. Yeah, full on inbox explosion. Heather, why are you crying? Stop crying. It's okay. I know. Hiding my nerves. Just so excited to see

all three of you. Yeah, we haven't hung out in forever. You've been, well, I mean, not like we haven't been, but you've been all over the place doing different races, traveling in your van, gravel race one weekend, ultra the next weekend. I mean, we travel a lot and it makes us exhausted to watch. but we're super glad that you're back home here and Ben so we can hang out, go get some dinner, and bonus podcast. Yes, thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, there's really nothing to be nervous about. We're super casual here, and Nick edits out half the shit we say, so. That's right.

But wait, speaking of back home, there was actually a question about this that I didn't include, but is there a place that feels most like home for you? Because you guys kind of jump around a lot. Yeah, for me, Bend feels more like home, and I think that's, just coming off my New Hampshire upbringing. And now I've been out in Bend since, I think we moved here in 2010-ish. So it's been quite a while. Wadi, my husband, who many of your listeners might also know,

he is more of a, he's from SoCal, he's more of a, he gets cold very easily. So right now he is freezing and wishing we were back in Arizona. But we split time between here and Bend and Tucson, and he tends to like it down there in the desert. but I am, yeah, up here as much as I can be. And they both totally have good and bad parts in terms of training, right? Like Tucson's a great escape in the winter. Bend has awesome trails and a lot of outdoor access.

So I think it's kind of the perfect duo of places that you've chosen to like spend your time, in my opinion. Yeah, totally. Yeah, no, yeah. I definitely, I love coming back here. I grew up with seasons. So for me to have four different seasons, even if it is raining and you have, like for me, that meant soccer season. Or in the spring it was, yeah, soccer, or I mean, lacrosse or softball season. Like, seasons for me were, yeah, I looked forward to the different ones.

And now I'm hoping we get snow soon so we can do some skiing. Speaking of growing up with the seasons, we were just before the podcast started rolling, we were, we do this bottle winner thing every week, Heather, and we were trying to randomly pick one podcast supporter that would win this bottle. And the podcast supporter happened to be from a town like, 10,000. minutes away from where you grew up? Just total coincidence. Is that right? Yes, I just saw the winner that was picked. And she is from Newburyport, Mass, which is literally maybe four towns over from where I'm from, I'm from Exeter, New Hampshire. So it's probably

10-minute drive. And we always go over. Exeter has nothing in it. And if you're going to go out to dinner, go hang out with friends or get a drink or something. Usually they're going to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, over to Newburyport. So, yeah, super exciting. So random. The week I'm on. That is so funny. Heather did witness us randomly picking this. So it's not rigged. Oh, yeah, no.

I watched the random. The randomizer. But Heather, you should say the name. Okay. Ashley! It was meant to be. Also, I was Googling the images. It does look very, very beautiful. Oh, yeah. It's one of the classic New England towns. It's beautiful, like old architecture. I'm sure. Nice.

That's awesome. Cool. Well, Ashley, we'll send you your bottle out this week. Do you feel like it's a conducive to training for triathlon-style town? Because it didn't look like it from the photos. It's so funny because my upbringing, I was playing ice hockey and soccer. So that's all I know of New England is time in ranks or on soccer fields. And so when I go back, I try to, I don't know.

I try to picture, yeah, training for the new sports I do now. I'm not sure how the road riding is like if cars would be friendly. I mean, I know she's from Mass, but Massholes drive like mass holes out there. So I don't know how to say what the roads are. Yeah, I don't think it's a just mass thing. It might be like kind of an East Coast thing a little bit.

Maybe. Or everywhere now, unfortunately. Yeah, Long Island, definitely the same. But I just always think, when I think of those people training for triathlon and places like that, I'm like, wow, they want it. They love it. To do it here, it means they love it.

Oh, for sure. I mean, also given the seasons, you're indoors all winter. There's no like, oh, it's a sunny day out. Maybe I can get outside. No, the roads are pure ice. Yeah. Worse than here. Yeah. Anyway, so we're sending that bottle out. And if you also want to potentially win a bottle, remember, you can become a podcast supporter at that triathlonlife.com slash podcasts. We don't do ad reads as of yet. And that's the only way that this podcast gets any support. So thank you to all our current supporters. And check it out if you're not. Before we move on to questions, Eric, this is something that we get stoked about all year long, which is the TTL Nation kits and the TTL development team stuff. And that's coming up really quick. Do you want to give us a little kind of like update on that?

Because I know a lot of people are interested in hearing about it. Yeah, yeah, that'll be happening on Friday. So this will come out on Thursday. Some of you might hear it on Friday. But on Friday we'll be opening up applications for the TTL development team, which is something that Paula and I thought up last year. and it's kind of something that we've been wanting to find a way to give back to the sport. We have a big soft thought for young athletes trying to get into the sport,

and the premises of it is just that we are going to sell TTL kits to the general population, and with the funds from that, we put that money into giving these kids a little bit of a stipend every year. So each quarter will give them some money, and that's ideally going to go towards coaching or food or airplanes. travel or whatever to try to basically ease the transition from age group athlete to making it, quote unquote, as a pro athlete. It's a really hard jump to make. And we know that the support that we're able to get at this point in our lives and with our little company is not enough to completely do it, but we're hoping to help out a little

bit and then also just like mentor them. Yeah, mentorship, share the journey. Last year, a bunch of our sponsors. Kistelli officially sponsors it, but last year we had on, give us some shoes. We have people interested in giving nutrition. We're really going to try to do as much as we can. Get geared to the kids too. And ultimately just give a little bit of a launch pad for a career in the sport, hopefully.

Yeah. So if you go on the Instagram, the teal kit is for the Devo athletes. So there's like six or seven of those. But then the kits that TTL Nation can order, there's two different options, the teal and the cream one. It was 50-50 split on the pole, so we just made both. Yeah, yeah. The 50-50 dead even Instagram poll is becoming the ban of our existence.

You're right. Oh, yeah, wait a second. We have to update everyone on what happened for those who didn't notice. Oh, my gosh. We're never even going to get to the questions. Real quick, we have the best content in triathlon. Talbot and Lionel are second best. Wait, let me just say, for those who maybe didn't have the time or forgot to vote last week,

we opened with this funny kind of competition. Dude, nobody forgot to vote. There were so many votes. It was so close. Well, in the end, it was separated by 76 votes after over how many? 9,000 votes. Yeah. Yes.

So we barely squeaked it out and it is in no doubt. Thank you to the podcast listeners. Who made that happen. Yeah, if we didn't do that call out, we wouldn't have won. No way. Thank you for doing it. So best content in triathlon, thank you very much. And it means nothing except for it means everything.

Yeah. It's completely not important, but we're going to brag to Talbot about it every day for the next year. It's a personal victory. Oh, for sure. Love beating Talbot. He's such a sweetheart, but he's still like to see him lose somehow. I don't know what it is. We're just fiercely competitive people. It doesn't matter what it is.

Yeah, so that's the update on that. I think that's all of our updates. Let's let Heather talk. No, this is more fun. We're just all going to sit back and you would just monologue about Western States. Ready to go. We can still laugh about the. these questions, Heather. It doesn't have to stop now.

Okay. Actually, the first one's perfect. This is from an Instagram account called The Tempo News. How much does Heather miss morning swims in the cold pool? And then I just would like to add in general, like, do you miss swimming in general? There were about like, so out of the hundreds of questions we got,

I'd say a quarter of them were this question, do you miss swimming? Do you miss going to the pool? Have you swam since you were quote unquote retired from triathlon? People love to hear the swimming. So let us know your status on I mean, I feel like all of those people can probably guess the answer. Oh, boy.

That's what I was afraid of. That's what I was afraid of. No, to be fair, I 100% miss going to the pool because that's where I would see P-Dog and E-Dog every morning. And I feel like it also gave me set structure because they're like, we're at the pool at 8 every morning. It would just kept me accountable. I'd be like, okay, my day starts at 8.

No lounging around and let's wait until it warms up. and all of a sudden it's noon and I haven't done anything. I mean, to be fair, that's exactly what it was for us as well. And still is. It still is, yeah. I was actually, I was just riding bikes with Nate, Dr. Nate. So like our crew was Heather, Lindsay Corbyn, Paula and I, Nate, just a random emergency doctor that I've been friends with forever. He would just show up and tell great stories.

I mean, in the scope of this podcast, he is. Andy. And then Andy, who was on the current development team. and then Curtis Feltoner, who is now retired from professional triathlon. And I was talking with Nate and just like it was such a fun, well-rounded group where like, you tried so hard. Like I've never seen somebody try so hard at swimming every single day, even if it was an easy workout.

Curtis was just like cracking jokes about how stupid swimming was all the time, so I didn't have to. And Dr. Nate was just like literally anything, golden retriever put me in coach. I haven't swam in five days, but I'm going to do the hard workout. Nate was there to get a workout. Yeah. He would, like, get the frustrations out. It was just so fun. Like, the perfect group Swimskod dynamic.

Yeah. We miss it so much. That literally was, like, yeah. I hate swimming. Like, I've hated it the entire time I did trap on, and I would, like, look forward to going to the pool. And it would be like, Eric and Paula would be doing, like, two hundreds.

I'm like, okay, maybe I can do a hundred to their 200. Right, right, right. That was that big. Like 175. It was that big. We got really creative so that we could do sets together. and you know you could leave on Eric's feet and maybe do a 25 less and then wait for him at the next wall. It was kind of fun to kind of create these sets where we could all do it, all work hard,

even though there was like varying abilities. Oh yeah. You would like do a 75 pushing off on my feet and then like rest for a 50 and then do like the last 50. You would come through that. Like a 300 or something. Yeah. Which was massively entertaining for me. Otherwise I'm just, you know, like not really racing anybody and staring at the black line. But I think this is like a good.

reminder to people that the camaraderie of swimming is so important. Going to the pool alone, the worst thing ever. But even if you hate swimming, if you can go and have a group and look forward to it, it makes it so much more bearable. So it is nice to hear that you miss that part of it, I guess. I honestly, so Chris Bagg, another mutual friend, he was here over the weekend. And I wasn't sure if you guys were back from Portland or not. And he went to the Saturday morning, which is another group swim here in bed.

And I haven't swam in, I've swam once since last conference. So I was like, oh my God, should I just go with him and just to see everyone I wanted to. I didn't know if you guys would be there, Jamie and Amy and I thank God did not go because he came back and he's like, this was the day they did 100 100s. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. We heard about that. No, no, no, no, no. We got the text invite to that and thank God we're not in town. Yeah. But I was talking to Lindsay and she says she misses sometimes like something makes you feel good sometimes.

Like even as a recovery or kicking or you do a hard run or a hard ride and then you come back to the pool, do you miss that? And would you ever be inclined to go back to swimming just for the recovery aspect? Yeah, definitely. It's weird. It's been only in the last couple months that I've had random urges of like, hey, I think I would enjoy just going and floating just to kick the legs. Totally. Like 2K, 1K, whatever you want to do.

Because we enjoy that on off season. It's like, go to the pool and do what we feel like and float around and often you feel better after. So I think I'd still do that even if I wasn't racing triathlon. Yeah. I think I'm going to bring it back in. It's a pain to get to the pool. And it's cold. It's cold.

All this talking about the pool, to me, the thing that I get from this, which Eric and Paula do not share, is Heather did not grow up swimming. She didn't do triathlon until she was in her 20s and still went from your quote being one of the last people out of the water in your first triathlon to then. podiuming the pro field at Kona. That is a success story for all the bad swimmers out there. You know, like, you can do it. And maybe we don't have the same work ethic that Heather has or the same talent. But it's the potential is there. Oh, thanks, Nick.

I appreciate that inspires me to work hard at the pool. I'm like, there is a chance. I can get better at this. It's not for nothing. Totally, totally. Yeah. No, the swimming thing is so tough, right? Because it's, I mean, yeah, you can work so hard. And I would like, I would go and work so hard. And it's not like the harder you work than you're going to see speed necessarily. You have that kind of natural feel or the technique part of it. And that's what was always so tough. But it's, yes, the more you do it, the more you stick with it, then suddenly like little things might click. So. But yeah. Next question is a perfect segue. You said, like, the harder you work, you don't necessarily go faster. Well, this is a question from Pat Landry. He said, what did she find more difficult, Iron Man or UTMB? Maybe not UTMB specifically,

but... But like, ultra running. Ultra running, yeah. A hundred-miler? 100-mile. Yeah, it's so funny because I kind of moving out of triathlon as I did the last year or so, I kind of was like, okay, I've worked so hard for 15 years with just such like set schedule and strict programming and like, okay, every Tuesday six by six minute threshold or all the set stuff. And I thought, okay, like I'm ready to move into maybe some of these new sports I want to try and things might be more relaxed or not relaxed, but just a little different. And I think that was my biggest surprise this season with the gravel and the trail running is just it's it's not. By no means, is it an easy, to the trail running specifically to the question is not easy. It is not that that was the question, but it's hard in its own way. So for Iron Man versus Trail running, it's definitely different, but it is hard.

It is, it's not just like, okay, you're going to go jog in the woods and enjoy this adventure, which it is part of it. But it is hard. They're so long. Your muscles are just beaten to death out there over the. these long distances and it's more a mental. I think it's harder mentally than any Iron Man I ever did. Oh, interesting. Oh, harder mentally. Wow. Yeah, because there's so, I mean, you go through so many ups and downs in Iron Man. I mean, the swim alone, which would always take me around an hour, I'd want to quit however many times. And then you get on the bike and it's, would always be better, a little

better for me. But you go through the ups and downs on the bike, but the bike is, you know, four and a half to five hours. And then you have a marathon. But in the ultra running, I mean, imagine. Imagine, starting one of these races and you're only five miles in, 10 miles in and you feel horrible and you already are doubting yourself and you have 90 to go. Yeah.

It's not like you have a change in sport or a change in activity to look forward to or something. Like you might have an Iron Man. Maybe I'll feel good on the run or... Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You're like, okay, once I get out of the water, it'll be fine.

And then you can check that off. Just get through the swim. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, the ultra running is just... And then you add in all the skills that if you, you know, aren't technically savvy necessarily. Some of these courses, so to the UTMB question, I went over. I didn't do the entire UTMB, the 100-miler.

There's kind of three main distances over there. There's the 50K, 100-K, 100-mile. I did the 50K. And that was just, I just wanted to see what those trails were like over there. And it is insane. It is, I mean. Like technical was. Yeah, technically was.

It's a whole different scale. so much hard like so much difficulty just with that side of things versus okay let's go out and you know try to ride the same pace as paula in a triathlon which is hard in its own and impossible in its own way it's like trying to run these technical trails i mean it's not something if you haven't done it you can just walk into yeah do yeah are the trails in europe a lot different than the u.s anything i had seen i mean it was i've heard east coast trails are really rocky and rudy and technical. I haven't run out there yet in terms of trail running, but anything here in, I mean, here in Bend is like, it's like butter.

Yeah, exactly. Bend is like barely classifies as trails. Yeah, exactly. It's funny you say that because when I was trail running in Tucson, I found, and mountain biking in Tucson, I was like, there are these just big rocks everywhere that make it really hard to kind of get any kind of of speed going. But even that, you're like, no, that's nothing compared to what it was like over there. So the Tucson is definitely also is much more technical than up here as well. And that's where I think I just need to make more effort to get on to some of those trails in Tucson. I know there's stuff on Mount Lemon and some of the other national parks has what you're talking about. Unfortunately, early on I was like, okay, I'm going to stick to these dirt road, quote unquote, roads and trails.

And they're just, I mean, gravel roads near where we live versus making that effort to get on that. but even those compared to UTMB, UTMB has those rocks you're talking about, but also the roots were the thing I noticed. Flipperi roots. Yeah. It sounds like so much like mountain biking to me where it's like today is a day I need to go out

and work on technique and not putting out a lot of power and then tomorrow I'm going to do intervals on the road. Exactly. Like build the fitness over here and then like technique specific days where it's just forget about what the pace is, forget about what the watts are. You're going to go try to like beat technically sound. 100%.

100%. That day we went up to Mount Bachelor. That is actually what UT&B was like, but that's what four miles up and the hills up over there like 10 to 12. So it would be like if we went up two or three of Mount Bachelor and then down the other side of what we did.

Just longer and bigger, but similar to that stuff. Yeah, yeah. That's what I was kind of imagining was that rock lava flow scramble. Is it mostly the downhills that you find hard? Oh, yeah. For technique was?

Yeah, the up. I think I have the fitness and the, I can just push and keep, yeah, going up is okay. And you're also not going as fast. But the down, and the down, with that comes being super competitive. And so I, like, don't want to get dropped or I don't want to lose people. And then all of a sudden you're down. And that just is what happened to me all season long. Any downhill, and I would just crash.

Yeah. Oh, man. For Havillina, for everyone listening, Heather, for everyone listening, Heather won, Havillina 100. recently. Congratulations. That's awesome. Thank you. Amazing. Do you feel like that was it allowed you to flex your fitness a little more and focus less on technique because it was kind of like that lap system? Or was there still quite a bit of technical running in there? Havillina was completely, it would be like doing a lap of Phil's Trail here in Bend, which is pretty smooth. And I knew that signing up for that race.

Havillina had two golden tickets on the line to get back into Western States. And I was like, like, okay, I'm going to worry about getting super fit for Havillina to try my best to get one of those, and then I'll shift focus to getting more technically prepared as I can. And so I was definitely, yeah, to your question, like, okay, just get fit, and I know I can run trails like that. Yeah, yeah. And you have the ticket now and you can now work on specific. Exactly, yeah, yeah. It's like checking the Kona box and then.

Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, right. Not like Kona qualifier. Well, speaking of which, how does you're fueling for something like Kona or just a full Ironman in general, how does that differ from a hundred mile or running? It's so funny. I have not changed a thing from Iron Man, which had kind of bumped up the carbs throughout the years in Iron Man. I think the last couple of years I was up to about 90 grams of carbs an hour. And I've just kept that now with the trail running.

and it's primarily it's primarily through gel. So now use certain gel that's 30 grams a gel and I just take three an hour every 20 minutes basically and then hydration as needed. So for triathlon you were doing 90 grams an hour on the bike and on the run and so then when you just went to running you're like, of course I'm just going to keep doing

what I was already doing on the run. Yeah, pretty much. And it sits okay in your stomach. Wow, 90 on the runs a lot. That's great. Yeah, it definitely, I mean, I mean, it definitely tapers off, and you also get the flavor, fatigue or whatever it's called as you get into, yeah. Yeah.

As you get into that, like, 11th hour, 12th hour. Oh, my God. No. No, no, no. No. No. No. No.

No. No. 10 hours. So, 36 jells. That is brutal. Out of current trajectory, we will get through three questions. Yeah. So choose wisely.

That's right. Well, the next question is perfect. It's so apropos with this. You kept most of your sponsors. from triathlon to trail running and gravel riding, were most of them, like, supported right off the bat, or did you have to, like, convince them of the value of this? Because obviously, it is hugely valuable.

Like, people love following trail running and gravel riding right now. No, honestly, I probably would have possibly made the switch over earlier if I had known the support would continue, like, how it did. Like, I was so nervous, honestly, to have talks with some of my sponsors and just say, listen, I'm interested in doing some of these new things. Triathlon, I mean, I still love it. Triathlon was definitely shifting, at least in the kind of Iron Man landscape that I primarily race. And it was just, yeah, kind of, I just wanted to try some new things.

And we were super hesitant early on about bringing that up. And literally, I always share this story, so it might be repetitive to some listeners. but I was having a talk with the head global marketing director of Hoka three days before Kona last year, which like I wasn't sure would be my last Kona. I didn't want to bring it up to him. And I kind of had told him I was interested in trail running. And he literally just started going off on how cool and fun and like trail running was. And he's like, that would be amazing H.J.

That's such a great idea. He was giving me that support before I'd even race Kona last year. So for me, I was like, great. Maybe I'm not going to race them. Maybe I don't even need to race. Right, perfect. I think a lot of triathlon companies see the potential crossover and see that maybe endurance athletes will maybe try some of these new things.

And I think just doing some of the media stuff, we make sure to continue and the, you know, doing the YouTube and a lot of stuff my husband Wadi does just to keep relevant and keep sharing the journey across no matter what I'm doing, if it is Iron Man or some other sports, that sponsors see that benefit and see that it is just showing athletes. You don't have to just be in one box. You can try these other things as well. And even if it's just once, you know, one year,

you want to try a trail run and then go back to Iron Man. I don't, that's cool. I mean, you can wear Hokas on the Queen K or at Havelina. And it's cool to be able to, that's more valuable, sharing the story of it. Like if Eric wants to try an Xtera or Heather's doing it.

ultra, people watching that and following the YouTube's and following everything is inspiring for people and companies that are smart will recognize that, I think, no matter what. Yeah, I really think the most powerful thing here is saying, I care about X, and I'm going to go after it. And here's how I'm going to do it, and here's why I care about it, and explain that whole thing. And Gravel is obviously like a hot topic right now, but I think if you were to say, I'm going to start the world's best lawn mowing business and here's how I'm going to do it and here's the updates on how it's going and I got a new client like people would get invested in that because you care about it so much totally that's a yeah that's very good okum might not sponsor yeah exactly it's very convenient

that gravel sponsors are the same as triathlon sponsors with the exception of wetsuit companies yeah but uh but yeah just doing doing a thing that you're passionate about is huge if they would have known in advance how well you would have done I think that would have made it easier and you would have been less stressed if you just magic ball could I know like, oh, I'll actually be winning races. Totally. Because you just don't know ahead of time, of course, right? Or how long that's going to take. Yeah, I don't think anybody was stressed for Heather making this switch except for maybe Heather.

Yeah. Yeah, we all talked about it like, this makes perfect sense. If anybody can do this, it's Heather. I can't think of another triathlet. I'm not just saying this because Heather's sitting right here, but who has like the skills, the skills off road. You said it to me, Paula, last year. I've said it to me a lot. Eric.

I mean, I think Eric. It actually fits this category. But on the women's side, I can't think of another female athlete who could make this jump as Heather is done. Just this huge fitness and talent aerobically, but then also the skills to back it up. That's the most impressive thing. If you ride gravel ever, you'll know how hard it is, technically.

You guys make it look easy when you're watching coverage and stuff, but it's super, super challenging. So it takes, having done some of it while you were also training for trial, on, I think, to be good at it. Seamless transition. Yeah. And you're willing to ride for 10 hours. At least from the outside, from our perspective, it's been seamless.

Oh, thanks guys. I know it's not easy. Paul knows my, yeah, Paul, let's go on a five-hour ride. Five hours turns into 10. Yeah, yeah. Heather has no fear of like 10-hour bike rides. So it was a natural transition to do 100-mile runs. Oh, Eric.

Eric, you need to do a trail run. Oh, I will. I was going to do this. Smith Rock 50K, but then I ended up doing, I got talked into Los Cabos. Oh. It was the same day. Yeah. Boo.

So we'll just have to wait a few more months for that debut. Speaking of 10-hour bike rides, this question here actually from Mr. Matt Mack, Mr. Matt-Mack, not our Matt-Mack. How old do you think doing long rides has translated to Ultras, if at all? Like, do you think they help each other a lot? Long bike rides for long runs? Oh, yes. Okay, so I think I definitely clung to that last year for sure, like early when I made the transition last year into the start of the year thinking, okay, it's a overall fitness boost where I go out and say I do the shootout in Tucson, five, six hour ride and then still do my runs off, which is what I did in triathlon. And that's emulating that hours six to seven of a run. And mentally I'm like, this is how fatigued your legs will be. keep doing these runs off. So I was continuing to runs off the bike, which I still do,

but I do think there is another aspect of those long days that you can't get from just doing six-hour bikes into a runoff. And that's just the pounding of the legs that you need to put that time in doing some longer runs as well. And I did that prior to Havillina this October, which I think made a huge, huge difference because I got to Miles. 60, 70, 80, and I was still running. And last year, my quads were so smashed that I couldn't even, I was walking. So yeah, and that wasn't a fitness thing. That was a muscular. Exactly. Exactly. So I think for those looking at 100-mile or yeah, to get that kind of quad, I keep calling it smashing. I know there's probably a better term the quad smashing in. There's various ways people do it

apparently between lifting or just going out and running downhill hard. I did a, Seven hour run here a couple weeks out from Haveline and I was, I went over to Lava Butte, those who have been to bend. I was just going up and down LaVuette. On the road? Yeah. Oh my God. The road smashing was, is what will smash the quads more than running on dirt. Totally.

Nick. LaVuette. Wait, is that the one that we filmed the thing? No. Yes. That is crazy. That is so steep. You can get up to like 60 miles and hours.

hour on a bike in 10 seconds on asphalt. It's so steep. It's heinous to run up and down. Oh my God. It'll smash your quads. Heather, you're telling me you gave yourself the gift of never having to do a brick run again and yet you still self-impose this punishment. Oh man. And the funniest, I mean, I don't, I love bricks. I just, I don't know. I like, I love the like getting off the bike and then I just picture, you know what I picture actually a lot of times is some of the workouts Paul and I did Eric as well, but trying to stay with Paula off the bike and down in Sun River and she would do 15 minutes off all out and I would just like pretend to or try to stay with her and now in my runs off I pretend it's that same workout. To be fair, they were not prescribed as all out off the bike.

Well, all out for me. Pea dog was under control. Oh, there was a lot all out. I was doing all out. But I don't think I can remember a single bike ride I've ever done with Heather even during COVID or she didn't run after. Oh, yeah. It's just prior to riding with Heather. Yeah.

But it's totally sport-specific for triathlon, so I think it was great. And I also often feel better running when it's right off the bike versus like waiting three hours and then trying to do the run. It just requires some discipline and momentum to do it. But if you can do it and get out the door, often it'll go pretty well. And adequate fueling, so you're not in the last hour of the bike bonking. Yeah, you get home and you don't feel like you have to eat the entire fridge. You can do your run. Just quarter fridge.

Fueled. Exactly. There were some questions about that actually, too. Do you still do bricks? So that checked that box, right? Yeah. I'm surprised to hear you do. I kind of would think like a professional who had to do so many, like you said with the swim, like there's probably like a little bit of PTSD wrapped up in swimming too of like doing this thing that is so hard that you hate. And like as soon as you have the chance to not do it, it's like, I'm never looking back. But then maybe enough time passes and you do it. But with the brick, you're like, no, I'm doing this. I'm surprised to hear you still do them. Yeah, well, she likes them. You could do reverse bricks, too. Like, why not run first? Tire out the legs first and then see how hard you can bike.

No, that's a good point. Four hour run and do a one hour bike ride. Yeah. Bike off. Yeah, I could do that. Whoa, new training technique. Groundbreaking science. Are there any other gravel riders who also race ultras or vice versa?

Are you the only one that's kind of doing? both at a professional level. Good question. No way. I don't think there is, but... I think I met a few of the gravel riders this year who came from

trail running, for instance. Paige, I know used to do a lot of trail running, and then there's a few others who I would chat do just on some of the start lines that have done some, but I don't know that they're still doing it now.

And a question I'm curious about is maybe you don't know yet, but as you move forward, are you still going to try to balance the two? Or do you think that if you just focused on one, you would do better at one? Or do you think the balance kind of keeps you grounded enough that you're actually going to do better? It's like when pure runners, like Gwen, switched from triathlon to running, her running actually slowed down, it seemed. Totally. I know. I know.

I think the two complement each other. I literally weighed this for like a month this summer. I wonder if I should just be like, I'm going to do, I need to go all in on this. and that will maybe, yeah, make a difference on one or the other. And I don't, I don't know. I don't know if there is an exact answer to that of like, if I did go all in on one, that it would change much because I think if I went all in on the run,

I would still ride. I would still ride for fitness. And I don't think that some of the bike racing that I do affects the running necessarily. I do think maybe it goes the other way around. Like if I need to put in a big running block, it could affect a bike race coming up. And so I've been very specific with how I lay out the calendar of like, okay, I know these are the key gravel races I want to do well at,

and I'm going to bring the running way down leading into those because I think the quads, you know, being thrashed is not conducive to being able to respond to a bike attack. Right, right. So just being creative with the calendar. I'm specific with certain goals. Yeah. I just, I think it kind of comes down to like,

what you're trying to accomplish. Are you trying to be the best ultra runner in the world or the best gravel cyclist in the world? Are you trying to have a blast doing both? And you're like, okay with maybe getting third if that meant that you could also do gravel racing. And, you know, like what is the ultimate goal is, it comes into that, you know?

And we just always assume, oh, the ultimate goal must be to be the world champion. Right. No, it's like, I mean, I definitely, I still think I can improve and go out and compete at a high level. and that's why I'm still motivated to train as hard as I do every day. But I also see this more as, yeah, like you're saying, it's a lifestyle.

I get to do two things I love. Like I still love, that's how I know I'm still competing or want to compete in this. Like to your question, Nick, of the like, oh, you still want to do a brick. Like when Paula texts that she has six by six, like, that still excites me to like come and see, how long can I sit on Paula's wheel on the bike and, like, try to improve my own bike power. that those two both still excite me and motivate me. So, yeah, to your question, my goal is, yeah, like the lifestyle, enjoying both, seeing what I can do in both. And I think with the triathlon background, having the experience in both, it's not like I'm starting from ground zero.

So I can kind of carry both forward. And the skill aspect, I feel like that's a rapid improvement curve. Like it's not a fitness ceiling. It's a skill thing. especially for the trail running for sure. It's like, yeah, I haven't put that time in. So for me coming here, poem to bend and being like, okay, I'm going to go to Smith Rock. I'm going to go to Mount Bachelor and just commit to learning those skills. Yeah.

And putting that time in, then hopefully to see. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So this is kind of a, it seems like a broad question, but I think a lot of triathletes have, like if you take pure runners or pure cyclists or pure swimmers, I think there is, like this thing where they feel like, I am a swimmer or like, I am a cyclist or whatever. And I think triathletes, at least I speak for me and Eric and Paul, like I think all of us, we love sport in general, maybe a little more broadly. And so the idea that you go off and do this trail running

thing specifically and gravel riding specifically, I think that's very exciting for us. Like, no one feels betrayed that you left us. But a lot of us have this idea that we might want to do this. So this question here, if you can put your mind in the space of an age group or triathlet, What do you think is the thing that surprised you the most about switching away from triathlon to gravel and trail running specifically? If you can go back in your mind when that kind of first happened. I think what did surprise me was that not much change necessarily in terms of what I felt I needed to do to prep for both sports still, despite just giving up the swimming portion of it. And I think that I thought in my mind maybe it would be, okay, way more riding, way more running. I don't know, it would just be different, and it hasn't been that different whatsoever beyond just not going to the pool every single morning and losing those three to four hours that I've now dedicated towards maybe one or two of the other things.

So what came to mind as you're saying that, and what I've been wondering personally, as you do gravel racing, is like the selection. That is not a thing in triathlon, where you are in the opening 20K of the race, like trying to make a selection, trying to get in a group that, you're not. you can roll with, especially with like men and women starting together. And have you had to like do anything different in your training to get that pop to like make the selection? Oh, 100. Yes. Okay. To that question, nailed it. That's been the biggest difference for sure because but what is it, I guess this is surprising or not surprising those who have done gravel racing. It reminds me exactly of the swim start. And so some of these gravel races I sit there on the start line and I literally have PTSD of swim stars going on.

Wow. Because it's so key to... A race is a race. It's literally exactly the same. Whether you make the front group or not, it's the same as a swim. You make that pack and you can draft and it's the same in the gravel racing. If you don't make that front pack, then you're in a pack behind chasing. And then the gravel dynamics are definitely interesting, I guess is the best word of like...

Yeah, any given race you can get in any type of... a group out there where everyone wants to work to catch that front pack if you aren't necessarily in the front pack or people don't want to work and they're all kind of sitting on because they want to save their legs for later. No one's doing the work when you have to bridge up to get to the front. So some of these races I've found myself just on the front like time trialing and Wadi's like, don't sit on the front. Get off the front. Don't waste your legs and your energy and I'm like, but no one else wants to. Yeah, and you've got to get to the front. You're the one person who wants to and has the ability to do something. It's a little bit like ITU racing. But long

longer. Right. No, exactly. So it's, it's, every race is so different depending on who you find yourself with. Right, right. So it's hard to even necessarily plan for a specific dynamic. It's different at a time. Every race, you just have to figure out, okay, this is where I am. But to your questionnaire on those starts, it's, I've definitely, I've still kept kind of the threshold workouts or whatever the term is for them. Like the six by six is Paula when we're here in the summer, but added in instead of maybe some of the other time trialling workouts I would do, it's. been a lot of 40-20s. So just eight by 40 seconds all out, 20 recovery, just over and over of like responding that pop. Ian Boswell, you guys know pretty well as well, just has helped a lot with just key workouts he's used.

And he gives, he does one where it's, you go 30 seconds all out so that you're just fully loaded up, just full lactic acid. And then you have to hold that tempo pace. So maybe like a 70.3 style pace. And then every two minutes, you're sprinting out of the saddle. I did that workout. This summer, a whole bunch.

But for Xtera. Okay, exactly. Yeah, it's terrible. But then your 70.3 tempo pace feels like walking through the park. Yeah, exactly. The difference makes it feel. I had such crazy high power after doing like three by 20 of that this summer. That sounds impossible.

It was pretty cool. Can you walk through it again? So it's 30 seconds. Like you're going to die. 30 seconds all out. And that's just to kind of like get the lactic there. Okay. So you're fully loaded up.

And then you have to settle in. to your, yeah, approximately 70.3 pace. And then I was doing three by 15s, but, you know, three by 15, three by 20, anywhere in there. And then every two minutes or so, you get your out of the saddle sprinting as though someone, you're in a group. Oh, like catching a move or something. And you have to respond or someone's attacking and you want to get on their wheel. Oh, my God. That sounds so bad.

That sounds more fun than 70.3 training. That's the thing. So I did that a bunch this summer And I would always look forward to it And then no other workout that I've ever done Have I so quickly in the workout I've been like I actually hope my tires pop

Yeah I'm like angry at how terrible Like I want to escape I need to escape the situation My life is in peril But then 20 minutes later I'd be like That was good

I hope I do that again this week Exactly You forget Yeah you're like so quickly forget Yeah That's true. So do you feel like your volume, this is a question from Marco. Marco wants to know, is the volume generally the same?

Yeah, I would say it's pretty similar. It's probably down a little bit in, say, these winter months when I'm here in Bend and not getting in those like six, seven hour rides. But then when we go back down to Tucson in the spring and I'm prepping for an unbound, and you're getting in, you know, two longer rides a week. And I think I bumped those longer rides up more than I ever did with triathlon. on. So that definitely adds up in terms of hourly hours per week. Sorry. So yeah, I'm probably still in that unbound Western States block around that 25 to 30 hour training week. Right now it's probably

right around 20-ish, I would say, 15 to 20 right now. It's a little bit of offseason. So do you think that is a Grand Prix schedule and stress of that? How does that compare to the Iron Man race calendar kind of thing. It sounds like maybe it's a little more focused and not as spread out because you're saying your offseason now is a little more chill. Yeah, it's definitely well it's just because Havillina was

three weeks ago now I think so it's more that I'm just coming off that now and I'll kind of build back into things. December I'll put in some good strength and just kind of base building and then usually similar to Iron Man usually Jan first hits and I am able to just focus in and

kind of set the goals. and go after me like once I have a focus then I can get really just yeah focused in yeah I remember that training with you during COVID when we were like COVID hit we were in Tucson with Heather and Heather and Wadi kind of became our bubble like we didn't see anyone else except the four of us hung out nonstop and for some reason I found it easier to not have a goal set or like a race set but the coach you had at the time kept like one race is canceled okay we're training for the next race and we're sitting there like no races are going to happen. That is probably my biggest.

Let's go campaign. Yes, I know. But Heather, when you have a race on the calendar, something like Kona or anything in between, you're so good at focusing in on that one thing and completely shifting your mindset and training what you need to do to be fast there. So that's what I observed from training with you. Whereas when COVID hit and Eric and I, I feel like we had an easier time just being like I wish I had done that.

Our coach was like, no racing is happening. I know exactly what's happening. I know science. He was right. Go do your thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I look back on COVID, I mean, we still had fun camping, but I wish I would have, yeah, just let it go a little bit earlier. Well, it was fun, though, because we still stayed pretty fit all through COVID.

And then we all raced decently well after COVID. So, like, we were out doing hill reps, but I feel like with the no swimming, I got a little taste of your life now. where you don't have that fatigue and that waste of time going to the pool. Exactly. So much free time. There was no stress attached to the workouts we were doing. It was just for fun. So I found it such a freeing fun time,

even though we still did some hard workouts. Yeah. I know. We did a lot of running hills. Yeah, we did. Here and Van and then down in Patagonia. Yeah, I remember that. Hill sprints.

Yes. Eric and Adi were like running around with cameras. We're doing like a full-blown workout. I miss those days. Some of us COVIDed, chilled harder than others. Yeah, exactly. I feel like your little pod there. Actually, this is perfect, segue into this question,

but like you guys kind of had whatever the spirit of gravel is or like this kind of like trail running vibe. It feels like you were kind of doing that in triathlon. And the question here is, Love Heather's YouTube. How does the culture in gravel and trail compare to long-course triathlon? Good question. Good question.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I got. a taste of it of like what you're saying, Paula, in COVID, where it was like, oh, I can just run and ride and don't have to swim. To that question, though, the culture, I would say one's on one side, one's on the other in terms of like the level of, I don't know what the right word is, not intensity, but I would say trail running culture is a very laid back, like very just grassroots. We're going to all camp and, you know, hang out and I don't know. There are certainly the top, top level runners who are performing at an elite level that is just like mind blowing to me as someone who wasn't in the sport coming from Iron Man and, you know, a very performance-based sport where you're like, okay, people are just running trails.

And then you actually take a look at some of the performances that, say, a Courtney or Jim Wamsley or these top people do. And you're like, they just ran whatever, six-minute miles for a hundred miles. I know it's not exact but like it's insane what they do so there are those performers but I think the general culture is just people who want to be outside on trails running or not a lot of people are just doing these events

like walking they just know they're going to go do laps in the desert for 30 hours and literally have fun with their friends find out something about themselves yeah it's like a spiritual journey you really learn about yourself yeah so it's definitely way more relaxed than I would say, especially walking down a Lee drive, Kona Week, for instance.

Yeah, everyone's way more intense in Kona. Yeah. I had this conversation actually, again, with Dr. Nate on our gravel ride just now and where I think that Ultra and Gravel a little bit, you know, hit the marketing better than Iron Man. Iron Man is built their entire thing around you are an Iron Man. You've completed it. You've finished. Yes.

Versus gravel and Ultra to me seems so much more about like the journey is. the reward and like the process and this particular race course and this way this is going to challenge you is much more celebrated versus like did you finish that race yes yeah i would agree with that that's a good um yeah like experience is the key yeah definitely the trail trail scene for sure the gravel gravel is a little more i would say mixed bag depending on the event is what i noticed there were certain races this year that felt that way and then other ones that were had the same intensity that some of the iron mans have where All the European pro teams. Turning into pro cycling. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You got the full tactics.

You got the pit crews. Yes. Yeah. It looks intense from watching the coverage from both. The gravel looks scarier. That's honestly what like it turns me off a little bit about it. And I did a gravel race like so long ago, the Vermont overland back in like 2014 or something. But these days, I was like, man, are you supposed to be serious?

or you're not supposed to be serious? Do you need to bring a pit crew? Do you not? Is that cool? Is it not cool? Aero bar is not. It just seems like this. It's like in such flux about what is allowed and what's not cool and how serious people are.

You shouldn't be serious. That I'm like, man, I just am like waiting for this situation to sort itself out because I can't tell what I'm supposed to do. Well, it's getting more serious because it's getting more competitive. Yeah. Yeah. More competitive and more like prize many at certain ones or not or just in general. Or sponsorship dollars. Exactly.

Yeah. I think it's just in its like transition phase where it's, yeah, kind of sorting out. Even from this year of me racing it to next year, like next year they've already asserted that the women will, at least the lifetime grandparent I can speak to other gravel events. Like all women will have separate starts. So that's already a new kind of like step in kind of ironing out some of the things that have been, yeah, I guess debated in the gravel scene of having. work for women or not. Yeah. Takes that whole dynamic out of it.

A lot of them barred arrow bars this year. Yeah. We couldn't have them at unbound. I love that. I'm such a fan of that. That is like what we got going on in Trathlon. I'm not sure if you've noticed. Bottles down the kit.

Why can't we just ban that? Then we don't have to decide if it's cool or not or a better or not. It's like, that is uncool. It's not allowed. Don't worry about it. That's literally been this year because that was not there last year. I know. Even just watching some online this year from afar, I was like, what is this? Like, what did I miss out on? Like, what do we need to?

You missed out on nothing, Heather. You left at the perfect time, actually. I think the moral of the story, or so many people after listening to this are going to want to go try running and riding. For sure. It's like, oh, the training doesn't change that much, but I don't go to the pool. Right. Exactly. Where do I find this?

Well, Heather, you. you were part of one of the coolest and most committed communities in triathlon. The stuff you and Wadi Bill is amazing and should be studied. And so you've interacted with a lot of these people. So I think you're the perfect person to ask for a lot of people that are listening to this podcast who are not trying to do this professionally, just trying to have a good time. Do you think it's something that the average triathlete would enjoy? Or do you think it is a little bit outside of the scope of what the average

triathlet would enjoy? I think the average triathlete would 100% enjoy some of these trail events and I wish I

had done some of the trail races more in my training, just as a training day even. If you're like, okay, I'll use,

I mean, they have trail half marathons, they have trail 20K, they don't have to be 100 miles. They have even a 50K

if you're training for an Iron Man, it's not that much longer. That could maybe be your longer, it's over distance. I mean,

you don't necessarily do that in Iron Man training, but if you just go out and have a fun, longer aerobic day on the trails as, you know, one of your longer final runs. It's way more fun than, than, you know, being out on the road, like pushing yourself through something that's not as enjoyable. And you get the same training benefit, I think. And that's coming from doing years and years of triathlon, these aerobic days on the trails when you're running hillyer

than maybe you would out on the road. I think the trail runs for sure can work in. I understand the average triathlet may be being hesitant about doing a gravel race because you have that group dynamic that can be a little nerve-wracking, a little anxiety-inducing, the being off-road, not knowing if we're going to run over some rocks or go down. But not being scared to just like take it slow and go out and have fun and ride with friends. I think, you know, that is another way to get a long, longer day in on the saddle in a fun way. Yeah, I totally agree. I haven't done the racing, but I've incorporated a little bit more gravel riding into my training. Yes, I see it.

I see it. And I think it's made me a better rider on the road. Like when you're gravel riding, a lot of the time you'll hit these patches where you feel like you've lost control of your bike, if it's sand, or you just have to kind of ride through it and be calm. And it's the same feeling when wind hits you on your TT bike. So I think that the feelings you get gravel riding, although it's much more technical, do transfer over to being a better rider overall on the road, being more skilled and grew. you know, all the drafting dynamics that go on in an Iron Man, it's only going to make you better to do more off-road stuff. And then just the less risk of cars.

That's what I like the most about it. Totally. You just see more and more incidences out there that are... But yeah, all those points are spot on. Okay, Heather, a lot of people ask this question. So I'm going to give you the soft version of the question here. Is there a world where you would ever compete in a next era going forward? Oh, yeah.

I mean, for sure. I mean, well, I guess going forward. I actually raised Extera World in Maui twice, and I absolutely loved it. And I thought I was going to get pulled back into one because good friend Curtis, who Eric mentioned earlier, said there was one coming to Bentonville. He was trying to recruit me to push and be a part of. So I was like, okay, got to get back in the water for that just to help a friend out. But I think that one got put on hold.

I think in the exterior world, do you do. be at the pointy end of the swim. I'm serious. Wow. Shots fired. No, no, no. Quite near to the point. No, I mean, even with not doing much swimming.

Yeah, yeah. Even with not much. I'm saying shots fired to Xera athletes, not to Heather, you know. Oh, well, it's true. I mean, to be fair, like, if the swim level is at the level that it's at and you don't, why do you need to swim one minute faster when you put more time in on the bike and get so much more than a minute out of, like, being technically better? It's, it's, that's just like spending your time efficiently. Yeah.

Agree. So Heather Jackson triathlon, the Heather Jackson triathlon fans and stands, you, you can still hold out some hope to watch her race. Some form of triathlon and the future. Here's what I think the future is, is like long distance gravel duathlons. Ew. That would be. And that would be, obviously, be your jam. It would be your jam.

This is neat for your job. But if anybody wants to, you know, like put on the TTL graphons. travel, duathlon for us. We will endorse it. We'll be psyched. We'll be there because I think that could be, I think that could be a pretty big thing. The number of people who do a little hiking or running

and do a little biking or running, but that have never swim and have no care for swimming. That's a lot of people. Yeah. But like the number of people who can swim, ride a mountain bike, and trail run, that's, that's like three out of every million. Yeah.

Already mapped one out. I mean, I got lots of ideas. I just don't have the time to, you know, like put down cones and do all the logistics and get the permits and stuff. It's easier to logistically not having to find a body of water. Oh my gosh. So many things open up, so many opportunities.

We need to get Sheila on it. She's got the experience. She's got the passion. She's got the know-how. Paula's mom race director. Oh, yes. Yeah, she could do it. She could do it.

Off-road. We'll talk to her. She's coming on Thursday. Yeah, we'll put the logistics department on it. Yeah, I would, yeah, I mean, to your question, I would consider. I mean, I think I'm going to be at a few events, not to hype up listeners,

but I'm going to be in a few events next year. Like try events. Doing them right. I'm just being there. Well, I mean, I'll be at Iron Man. Tell us later. Tell us later.

That's how I feel about triathlon events next year as well. Be there. I will be at Iron Man Lake Placid next year. Oh, sweet. That's the Jackson Special. It's like the 25th year of it, maybe. It's like the 25th. year they're doing like VIP relays so or like bringing back winners so they're bringing back a bunch

of people to do but I will only be doing one leg so okay one iron mat like though that's significant well not the swim I mean if I would choose the swim it's so much shorter that's interesting okay awesome I remember when you told me when I was trying to figure out which race to do for my first full you told me to do Lake Placid and Wadi said the same thing. Both of you were like that's the one to do. The swim you told me has like that kind of line that you can follow on the bottom

and then the whole, you go to the Olympics. It's like really beautiful, right? Yeah, yeah. It's one of my favorites. Yeah. 25th anniversary, potentially last year. I'm not sure what the permanent.

I mean, they say that every time and then they somehow renew for another year. So, yeah, I thought last year was the last year. Classic. Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, we have a couple more questions here. This next one is, this is a tearjerker maybe, but what is it that you miss the most about triathlon?

And it doesn't have to be about the racing, just in general. What I miss the most? I mean, it's definitely the people and the training partners. I mean, all the memories I have aren't necessarily races or crossing certain finish lines. It's, yeah, the day's training with friends. So I could, I literally remember my years looking back on my career by certain training blocks, like the training block we did down in Arizona or during COVID or up here

or, you know, a lot of the conas I prepped with Lindsay Corbin down in Tucson and she and I would put six weeks in together or the swim squad we had down there for those camps. So it's more certain, yeah, certain blocks of my career. I remember by those times I had with friends that stands out more than a race, maybe. 100%. Yeah. And thankfully. God has the best answer. It's the best answer, but the great thing is, Heather's still training. So even this summer when she was training for gravel and I was training for PTO races, we still did some workouts together.

So those times don't have to end. It's great that you're still training at such a high level. What's so great about this to me is that like that trathon life and its like current form was incepted while we were with you guys in Tucson. on. And like, that's a big part of why we called it, that trathlon life is like that that exact mentality of like the process and the journey and the times you spend with friends and everything. That is what is so special and that we're going to remember forever more than, you know, your PR at whatever race. 100%.

I just like, so on board with that answer. Yeah. And the good news about everything that Heather has been saying to me, at least, as someone who definitely is interested in, for me, like not just gravel riding, but also a mountain bike racing and trail run racing. Like that sounds very fun. It sounds like even with your question here, it's not like a ton of the skills in the time that you have put in to triathlon has transferred over so well to these other sports.

And like you said, the thing you miss the most is like it's just the people, not like any specific thing about the sport really. That's great news for anyone who's toying with the idea of also doing these other sports. Oh, completely. Yeah, 100%. I mean, the fitness I think triathletes have is just next level. I mean, you're doing three sports. You're doing them at a high, high level of high intensity, usually, and you're training,

a mixture of different things. And you're training for longer days, whether you're doing halves or foles. I mean, those are long endurance days, four hours up to whatever, nine, ten, plus, you know, depending on your race length, you've trained your body. And at the end of the day, as someone who's now done this for so long, I mean, I don't think there isn't, a set way to get your body fit and in a certain shape. I mean, you can train. There's so many ways you can train.

And the time in training triathletes have put in to train for a triathlon, 100% carries over to like longer gravel events or running events. I mean, it's, yeah, you'll surprise yourself with your fitness level. It's just the skill development. Yeah, yeah, I think that's so true. I think that it's so cool. It's like we've built this amazing thing of our bodies that, It just has the ability to move through nature quickly.

And you can apply it in literally any cool way you can possibly think of. And we won't always be able to do that. But for now, it's like what's the neatest thing I can think of? And triathlon is prepares you to go do that and feel good at it. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I think those were like some pretty perfect finishing quotes. Yeah.

I was like, I had chills listening to her talk about that. So that's great. Should we call it there? I just got something at both my eyes. It's fine. We could save some of these questions and do like a part two, you know, later. No, I think what we should do is leave the pod there, have Heather back, like, half with your next year. And there's so many questions that as you saw Nick, 300 or more. Yeah.

So that was such a good start. But I think this will be one of our most popular ever. Yes, I agree. It was so good. I was so fascinated. Me too. It's kind of hard because I have to talk to the mic so I can't look at Heather. but I'm like, I feel like I'm listening to the podcast.

Yeah. If our audio is dropping in and out, it's because we're just like staring at Heather and out and pacing the microphone. Mouth, gate. I just want to say a huge thanks to Heather for being here. And we're excited for some training together this winter. Also, I feel like Wadi didn't get enough shoutouts in this podcast. I think he's a huge reason that your transition has been such a success.

Just a plus support crew there every day. He's like, He is to Heather as Eric is to me. So both of us realized that we couldn't do this without our Wadi and Eric's. Completely. Completely. A huge shout-out to Wadi always. Maybe we can coerce Wadi into like a Nick and Eric special.

Yeah, he could be like a little bit too bad. That's a good idea. That's a good idea. Love that. Wadi always refuses. He won't take photos. He won't do any of these things. We're just going to, I got to show you in the office.

He likes to be behind the scenes. Oh, what is this Nick with on FaceTime and the microphones? What a coincidence. I love Wadi. Just ignore that GoPro. Okay. Last thing we should do is Heather, tell people where they can follow you on Instagram, watch your YouTube channel, which is amazing.

You just put out a video today about Havillina 100. It's the perfect thing to watch on the trainer. I just watched it while I was on the trainer. So tell them where to go. H. Jackson Racing on Instagram. Some of them are H.J. Racing, but I think H. Jackson Racing on Instagram. And then the YouTube channel is just heaven. Jackson racing.

I guarantee if you put in Heather Jackson. It'll show up first. Into YouTube. It'll be like one of the top three things. Yeah. Thanks, guys. The main things that I do are Instagram and YouTube. So those are the two.

You need to follow along. Cool. Can't thank you enough, Heather. Thank you so much. So cool. This was so fun. Yeah, that was really fun. We're definitely going to have Heather back on.

Thank you for listening. And we'll be back next week with more of your classic questions. Thanks guys. Bye. I'm