That Triathlon Life Podcast - Kate Courtney: World champion, World Cup overall winner, and Olympian, helps us answer questions about endurance sport!

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

This week we have special guest Kate Courtney on the podcast to help us answer questions. Everything from Zwift riding, training with music, to sports psychology and therapy. To submit your own questions, and help support the podcast, head over to http://www.thattriathlonlife.com

Hey everyone, welcome to that triathlon life podcast. I'm Erica Lockerstrom. I'm Paula Findlay. I'm Nick Goldston. And here with us today, we have a very special guest. Who, Paul and I have actually met before. We have a little bit of a history. Flynn has a little bit of history with her dog, actually. Going all the way back to COVID. We've got Kate Courtney with us here, Mountain Bike World Champion, World Cup overall winner and an Olympian. Hey, guys. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for being here. We're super excited. We don't normally have guests on our podcast. When we do, it's really exciting and fun. And, and, something different for our listeners to get into. So yeah, we're so excited that you had the time to chat with us. I know you just got back from racing and we know how that is, like the stress of travel and everything. So it's great to finally connect. And what racing you had? I mean, you had three days and it was star studded.

Yeah, we just, I got back from Arkansas last night and we had three races in one week. So it's pretty awesome. They're working to give us more opportunities to earn points in the United States. So we have a UCI ranking system and there's different classifications. And in order to give us as many opportunities as possible, they just did a three in one week. So it was a little stage race out there. I think it tells the kind of person you are when you didn't tell us the results of those three races. And I happen to know what their results are.

I would have probably led with that personally. So how did those races go? They went really well. I will start with the first race of the season. Three weeks ago, we were in Vale Lake. And I had had kind of some like hiccups and training. Like I got a stomach bug and did a really hard block in February. And then suddenly was kind of like tipping into this what I call non-functional overreaching,

my science of training nerds. But I just really was feeling off. And so we kind of shut it down for a few weeks and did a lot of volume. And I came into that race and was totally flat and like not on form at all. And then two weeks later, we had this race this. past week and came out and just like felt a world of difference and was back on form. I won the first two races with early attacks. And then the last race, I was third and a three way sprint finish. They actually, first time this has ever happened to me, we are in the race, four laps into a six

lap race. And I guess there was some lightning nearby. So they just shot to us from the side of the race with like five minutes left in the lap that like it ends at the finish line. Which was pretty wild. So that race ended in a sprint and was pretty exciting. But yeah, I'm looking forward to some more standard racing coming up as well. Wow, that's like a really good lesson and just be prepared for anything and be mentally flexible out there. Even in the middle of a race.

Yeah. Totally. I have to say I did not respond ideally in that scenario, but I certainly like learn some lessons for next time. Yeah. Not that it will probably happen again. That is. That's a first. I don't know.

We were talking just before we hit record about early season races for athletes targeting big races later in the season. They're really like checkups on your form. And so obviously like it's great to win a race. It's always fun. It feels great. But like the bigger thing for me, I think is seeing that the training that I put in and kind of the like judgment calls that we made over the last two months to pay back off when I was getting all tired. or do specific high-intensity workouts because that's what I was missing. Those hypotheses were kind of confirmed in my forum at those races.

And so it is a smaller early-season race, but I think it was really meaningful for me to just be riding with confidence and knowing that we're on the right track. And are you the kind of person that do you like traveling and training while you're traveling? Or when you get home, is it like, thank God I'm back. You're like, this is what I'm comfortable with. This is what I know. I think it's a mix of both. Oftentimes with cross-country racing, it's such a short kind of spiky effort. It's really high intensity. It's only an hour and a half. So you actually kind of like lose fitness through those blocks. You get race form, but you're doing really low volume in order to be able to produce that kind of peak power. So for me, you know, there's such a balance. Like I love being on the road in racing. And then I also love the periods where I get to come home and train. And I think, um,

I have a little bit of seniority in the field now. Like I've done these circuits for probably close to 10 years. And I think my biggest lesson is I have to race when I'm in the race blocks and then carve out training blocks that are like really focused at home where I have the right environment and resources. And honestly, like not the kind of central nervous system stress of being on the road, figuring out where to eat and trying to manage all these other kind of variables. So I'm definitely the athlete who will like, if I have a two week or three week break, we'll fly home, even if it's back and forth from Europe. Yeah. I feel like we're pretty much in the same place at this point as well. Like slowly over the course of our careers, racing a little bit less, trying to structure in more that time where we're home or just feeling somewhere grounded and not like every week trying to learn a new location.

And I don't know, that feels very nice to like get back, think about all the things that we can work on after that last race and like have a couple of weeks at least to put them into practice before. It's like, oh, we've got to jump on a plane again. Yeah, I think that speaks to the kind of experience. I think, you know, there's a lot of ways to do it. And early in my career, I was like, an eight-week trip and you're up, it'll be a blast. Like, we'll go train some more beautiful. And now I think it's really been a change in perspective where it's,

okay, when I'm racing, I'm there to perform and when I'm preparing, that needs to be a focused block. And those things need to be in balance. Totally. Well, before we do questions, sometimes we do segments. and this one is called this or that and you kind of just have to pick one of these two answers

that are available to you, okay? Okay, I'm ready. Okay, we're all gonna do it. Are we all answering? We're all answering. We're all answering. We're all answering. We're all answering under pressure.

Yes. Okay, first one, I know it's probably not a, it's more of a nightmare than a dream, but would you rather convert to pro swimming or pro running if you had to switch away from biking? Pro running, easy. Land and male running. Pro running.

100% running. Yeah, I think everyone's on board of that. Sorry swimming. Yeah. Okay, next one. Before a long ride, would you rather have eaten too much or not enough? No. What's a worst feeling? That's a hard one. Can you eat on the ride? I have a follow-up question. Yes. Yeah. Not enough, fun.

Not enough. I kind of like to roll out and feel like there's a backpack. I'm wearing a backpack of food. Yeah. It does lend to a certain feeling of security. Like at least I will not bonk. Yeah, no bonking. No bonking. I might go with it too much. I'd say too much. I mean, for a ride. For a run. Not enough is better, but I can kind of ride harder when I'm full. Yeah. Cold race or hot race? Hot race. Oh, really?

These two are cold. I might say hot too. How do you know we're cold? Because I know you. Yeah, definitely cold and pouring rain would be awesome. Yeah. Cold for us. At our World Championships this year, it was like three degrees Celsius at the start.

So cold. Would be manageable without the swim because we're coming out of a cold water. riding in spandex but wild wet that's brutal that's my nightmare I just mostly I don't love the like crazy

thick Euro mud I think that's why like less temperature than like weather yeah right like winter conditions mean a lot of a lot more things for you to deal with

than it does for us we just have to put on a jacket that's really true that's really true trails change okay next one post race sweet or savory treat

sweet sweet savory for me yeah i feel like i usually just want a burger or like a taco i feel like our our races we eat a lot of gels and yeah get through four hours with so much sweet stuff so that's a favorite one i usually like yeah are you taking on nutrition in the middle of your long track races yeah so they're about an hour and a half um and i've kind of been edging up my taking on of nutrition because it does help a lot i think it's also hugely mental like having fuel continually coming on board, like having that glucose get to your brain, when you're being asked to kind of do these way above threshold

anaerobic efforts, that makes big difference. So I do eat a lot, but it's like the equivalent of three or four gels, not like the amount. And are there times in the race? Sorry, I'm veering off. I love it. Do it.

Are there times in the race where it calms down a bit and you do feel okay taking a gel? Because I imagine it with all the technical stuff, it's hard to get it in when you're racing that high. Totally. I think for me, I'm someone that likes to be like psychotically organized before a race and have like a really specific plan.

And then I'm pretty good at adapting it and having like backup plans. Or for example, like I always have a safety gel. Like I'll bring gels and be like, okay, I'm going to eat at, you know, 30 minutes and 60 minutes. But then let's say like a huge attack goes. and I use a ton of energy. Like, I'll just take an extra gel. And so I think like that kind of thing where I'm like, okay, I'm going to go through the start, finish,

and I'm going to look at my garment and see 40 minutes and take a gel. But also, like, I have the right to respond to whatever's happening in the race. Gotcha. That was good. Yeah. It sounds a lot more like when we raced in the Olympic pipeline, ITU, draft legal racing, where we would all be in a pack after swimming. It's like you go in with a plan and then nine times out of it.

of 10, you just kind of go with whatever happens because the race is so dynamic. Yeah, everything's changing. Through the start finish line, does it usually settle a little bit for you guys? We watch all the races and it looks like it sort of reorganizes a bit after that point. If you're already there in the front, if you're like not in that lead group, you're trying to get to the lead group. Exactly. It's a bunch of, it's a lot of strategy. But I think for me, like, I especially early in the race, have to be like really strict mentally with my plan.

And there's not that many places you're going to eat or drink. So for me, I actually eat like drink only in the feed zones pretty much, depending on the course. Okay. Yeah. I'm pretty good at like chugging half a bottle in like two seconds. So if I can grab it and chug it and throw it, like I will take on the nutrition in that bottle. Whereas a lot of people like put it on their bike and like have another spot they're going to drink it. Okay.

This is now getting very detailed, but like I'll do that in the feed zone. And then I have like, yeah, where's the best location to take a gel? It's usually through the start, finish. It's often on pavement. So we do have like a moment to rest or not rest. Just take on a gel. But there's definitely some strategy there. Like I'll skip feeds occasionally if I'm like attacking or there's something crazy happening or for sure on the last lapse.

Like you'll see people skipping feeds. And that's where if you've been diligent, you know like you have a plan that gets. you far more nutrition than you need and then you skip it all here or skip a feed there and it's okay. But if you kind of get caught up in the momentum of the race early and you don't eat or drink, you can't catch up. It's exactly like triathlon aid stations, except we're going through them at like 43 kilometers an hour. And if you like actually stop to grab a bottle, that is a huge people love to attack through there. Yeah. It's a lot of strategy. Awesome. What was our next this or that?

It has nothing to do with what we just talked about, unfortunately. But what's better for you when, like, not on the bike? Good music or a good movie? I can't really watch movies. Yeah, I don't watch movies either. The burden of deciding. And two hours of just like, now I'm doing this thing. It's a long, it's a lot of time.

I don't like getting up in the middle of movies. Yeah, I like always do things during movies in a weird way. Like, if it's a show, it's 45 minutes. Like, that's the perfect amount for me. I'll, like, do the norm tech boots. Like, do little stretching. You're good. But if there's like a long movie, I end up actually like folding laundry and like doing like just being really busy.

And it's not rustful at all. Well, that's all or this or that. And we're going to move on to questions. The first one's very, very light. These are all questions from our listeners. But I like this one. I picked it out. How much cereal can you fit in the World Cup and what serial would that be knowing that Eric is a big serial effigionado?

Sorry. Serial. Okay. So what do you mean in the World Cup? It's as a joke. Like the cup itself, a physical cup. It's an awful dad joke. Cereal and drink milk out, you know.

What I really feel like they're asking is what's my favorite cereal? Yes, that's correct. I'm actually more of a granola girl. Does this count as like a cereal adjacent food? What is it? Like the purely Elizabeth granola. They actually carry it everywhere now. Oh, yes.

Yeah, I've seen that. Slightly changed. Yeah. But I love that. I love that granola. I like granola better too. I feel like it is better with yogurt and it's, it just tastes better than cereal. Honeynut Cheer

I would say Honey Nutriots are a vibe. And I haven't known occasionally, like, if I do a huge block of, like, just tons of hours and you just have to eat a ton of food, that will make an appearance at the end of that block. Nice. I go for the Honeynut Cheerios and granola, like, two-layer situation. Yeah. He's an alchemist, a serial alchemist. All the mouth feels. Okay.

So our first real kind of question here is Eric and Paul have a van. that they train and kind of semi-live-out-of sometimes, you also have van life experience a little bit. And I was just curious what the hardest thing about living in a van is, maybe something that people don't think about right away. Like everyone knows like, oh, you've got to find bathrooms. But is there anything other than that that makes it hard? I'm going to start with a short anecdote,

which is when I last saw you guys, was when it was during the pandemic, and there were crazy fires in the U.S. And it was like right before, I think it was right before the Olympics or right before a World Cup. And my husband and I, like, loaded up our puppy in the car and drove just to try to get to clean air. And we ended up living in the Mount Bachelor parking lot for two weeks, which was, you know, a cool experience in many ways. Really great access to trails.

Pretty fun. He actually worked at, like, a pop-up fold-up table, like off of his cell phone on Zoom calls all day in the parking lot. It was epic. Which was epic. And it was great to see you guys. But I would say the hard thing is staying organized, I would say, is really tough. Like over a long period of time. If you're like training and trying to work and trying to relax and recover, like just keeping everything organized in such a small space can be really challenging.

And I think it's harder to like turn off your mind a little bit. Like I would come back from training and it's hot and you're in the band. You've got like chores to do. And it's a lot different than like coming home, having a glass water in the kitchen and like going and taking a nap. Like it's hard to have that kind of like distinctions in your day. Yeah. Totally. Like you get like you can't just like throw your bike in the car.

You have to like take the wheel off and you have to get it in just right and move over the standup paddleboard and make sure that it all. And then like 20 minutes later you can go find, dig your protein powder out. Yeah. Find the shaker, but you got to put that, clean that before you can go to sleep. We've never actually done like a training camp out of the van. And our van's not fully equipped for that type of a setup, but that is the most stressful part to me, even just road tripping in it is keeping things organized, having a place for things, having our giant dog in the van.

It's, yeah, definitely a challenge. But fun for a couple weeks. Yeah, it's just like things that you kind of take for granted being simple at home, all of a sudden become a significant part of your routine. Yeah. Yeah. And I think also it speaks to like, I think a lot of times our lives, we have similar schedules. You guys might work out a little bit more than me.

But from the outside, it looks like, oh, you're just going on these like fun bike rides. Wow, must be so cool to go on this like camping. There's like camping trip with your husband. And in reality, like that was like a test for us. Like we had to like work together. I had super intense training, tons of pressure on me. I'm trying to like adapt to the circumstances and like do final prep for a world. cup where like you need the nutrition to be right. You need the routes to be right. You need to

do the intervals in a certain place. At the same time, my husband's like trying to be on these Zoom calls. And I think that's a great example of there are these like additional pressures and stresses that make it, I think, challenging to train at the level we need to train at in that type of environment. Even coming to a new training camp, like we're doing stuff training at an Airbnb. be, and it's the same thing getting set up with a massage therapist, learning the roads. Any kind of time you're out of your normal environment is a hurdle. So that's even more accentuated with the van. But we're lucky to have one.

It's just not the greatest tool at all times for training. Okay, next question. I'm afraid we already all know the answer to this question. But would you ever consider doing an Xtera? I can't say it's on my immediate plans. I actually did a triathlon in high school or middle school, actually. I think I did like the Escape from Alcatraz traathlon. Wow.

Really? Wow. Yeah. Eric is a reigning champion, by the way, of escape from Alcatraz. If you're going to do one, especially with like your kind of natural, I guess, your strengths with mountain biking and being having good power to weight ratio and four minute power. Yeah. For sure.

The swimming is a lot, though, on that one. Yeah. swimming is not it for me. Related to this, which I think is a little more applicable, do you have any interest in racing gravel? Like watching the Belgian Waffle ride and all these gravel's kind of emerging now,

and it seems like that would suit your skill set with the skills and the endurance. Yeah, I think gravel's awesome. I do the like grasshopper series. Those are kind of the original races in Northern California. They're like the best community events I do all year. And I do those in the spring for, training and we actually we race as one kind of mass start with the elite men so it's a very insane

training day I always have my highest 20 minute power of the year at like the first grasshopper because it's just like you just rip out a hill and I'm like in this pack of guys just like fighting for my life but um I would say yeah for now like maybe after I retire from world cup racing that would be something that I would do I think a lot you see that in a lot of like racers who've retired from World Tour racing or from, yeah, World Cup racing. But I think the level of gravel racing is just a little bit different right now than it is like if you're pursuing an Olympic discipline. So I think for me, I really want to stay focused on like trying to win in these shorter races during the like very small window, hopefully, that I can still win in my career. And then there's

definitely a long list of events, like some of these awesome gravel events, Leadville, things like that that are on kind of my just like bucket list, race list. Yeah, for after-Olympics. After-Olympics sport. Yeah. So kind of related to that, the next question is, how much cross-training do you do to build that strength through the mountain bike? I know you do a lot of strength stuff, but is there, do you do any like trail running, like intense hiking? Or even like road riding. Yeah. I think you probably do some of that.

A lot of road riding. A lot of gravel riding. I actually ran this morning. I do a little bit of trail running. So I feel like I would never go on a run with you guys. But I run like two days a week for kind of like three to four and a half miles. And I'll do that before I go to the gym. So it actually, it's something that's a.

bit new for me. Actually, last year I started doing it. And I really just loved it. I think it's really good for my body. It's good for like injury prevention for me, which I know is funny because running is associated with more injuries. Yeah, was that kind of like a bone density sort of play? I think bone density,

also thoracic rotation. That's like really helpful. And I think it also is just like body awareness. Like I'm so trained to spin pedals and circles that my body kind of adapts. Like if there's like something else.

a little off or like your Achilles is a little tweaked. Like once I start riding, my body kind of adapts. And when you're running, like, if something is not aligned or like feels off, I know it immediately and I'm like super aware of it and will kind of like call it and talk to my PT. Luckily, that doesn't happen often. And I think actually the running and maybe just like stronger ligaments and joints that result from that have have help with that. That's cool.

Super interesting. Yeah. And then gym is a big part of your week as well. Yeah. So I do like two days a week of real string training. This time of year, it's down to like an hour and 15 minutes at the most. And then I do like a core session day. So I think people like think it's more than it is just because when you're in the gym, like it's easy for someone to take a video of you.

And I'm always with my trainer. So like I post a lot about the gym and not a lot about like staring at my power meter on long road rides. It's just kind of boring. But, yeah, like, my news on Fridays. I almost feel like a triathlete. I run, I go to the gym, I do a ride. It's like... All the most fun parts of the other part.

Yes, exactly. That's not mentioned the other part. Yeah. We're like the most ADD people. We need three different sports to stay entertained. Yeah. Oh, that's cool. Keeps of fun.

This is another question that's later on, but we're curious about how much training you do on your road bike. And I would say, like, outside on your road bike. I do not train in. side pretty much ever. Really? Yeah. Nice.

Yeah. California life. Next question. I actually think it's an amazing tool and I use Zwift a lot during the pandemic and I think it, I mean, it's awesome. Like if it's, if there's a raindrop on a rust day or an easy ride day, like I will do an active recovery ride on the trainer. But I think I like training outside.

I think the quality of my workouts is. higher and I also think it just like trains your mental toughness because you just if you like don't give yourself an option then you just have to like suck it up and get it done yeah there's something to be sad for that yeah especially when it rains often and your races it looks like exactly that's like totally a part of it as well um especially for this year but your original question was mount bike versus road bike I think for me it really periodizes out into like what part of the season I'm in So like fall kind of November, December, I'm probably spending more time on road or gravel than on mountain bikes. And as it like starts to really rain a ton, then the trails are maybe not rideable.

And it's again more kind of like road, gravel, base miles, just time in the saddle. But once I start racing and kind of in like the month leading into racing, it tips dramatically towards mountain biking. And then I'm doing almost all my workouts on that. bike. I travel only with a mountain bike. So yeah, once once that racing season comes around, it's basically like 100% on the race setup. But I also do have like a pretty mountain bike fit on my road bike. So like, I was going to ask as it relates to triathletes because we train a lot on our road bikes, but we race on a time trial bike. And I do think there is a lot of crossover with obviously fitness, but also the muscles are slightly different. But it's just more

fun to ride a road bike. So we actually do incorporate a ton of that. And I think a lot of age group athletes that listen to the podcast have the same kind of questions. Like, how often should I ride my TT bike versus a road bike versus a mountain bike? And I think bike fitness is bike fitness. And kind of any bike can get you that at certain times a year. Yeah, as long as the fits aren't like wildly different. Yeah, it does help if they kind of match up a little. I think the fits are the key with that one. But you're totally right. And it also depends on like what the purpose. of a workout is. So for example, a long intensity ride, like, great. It's the same. Your heart rate's in the same zone. It's fine. But for me, like, if I have sprints, like, I always do those on the

mountain bike because, like, the position that you're producing that peak power in is different. And you use your upper body differently. So that's one way that I kind of, like, distinguish what workouts to do on what bike. Yeah. Yeah, that's like us with the TT bikes. The next question is a dog question. I saw that you do, you definitely do some training with your dog. But how much is this like Instagram versus reality? Like what percentage of your training is actually done with that? With Monty. With Monty, yes, of course.

Yeah, not a high percentage of my training training. But I think one of the biggest things that's important as an athlete who trains a lot and is a full-time racer is like distinguishing between dedicated focus, go out with no music, interval training workouts and like fun active recovery rides. So he probably does like a high percentage of fun active recovery rides or we just. just talked about like fun four mile trail runs. Like he loves that. And it's so fun for me to do with him. But I would never bring my dog on like an actual important training session. Yeah, that's relatable.

Yeah. I kind of, when you said like no music, hard training session, we've talked about this a lot about how much we use or don't use music as part of a motivational tool. Is that is, is it as cut and dry as you said it? Like hard interval session, no music, easy recovery ride music? Or do you ever like, like, oh, today I need. music for this interval session.

You're like, it's the only way it's going to get me through this. I pretty much never. Like, it's pretty much a rule. Like, I don't listen to hard music on a hard training session. Listen to hard music. Listen to any music. Like heavy metal. The hard kind.

No, I think for me, it's like those efforts are as much mental as physical. That's something I think I've really come to appreciate in recent years. It's like being really in touch with like, what does my breathing sound like? What is my cadence? What is, what is, what is it? feel like at let's say I'm doing like some VO2 stuff I'm at like 315 watts like I need to know like what that is and how comfortable I am at that pace so that when I'm at that pace in a race I can say got it like I do I could do this all day ladies and I think that's like a huge part of the

confidence piece and so for me like not having music having that level of focus makes the workouts better. And oftentimes in those workouts actually like going harder is not better. It's like being more focused, doing higher quality. Being like if you can do that power at like a more relaxed like feeling more relaxed, feeling more recovered, that's how you start to make progress in like getting into a race, being in that position and saying this is totally under control. Yeah. I totally can relate to that. I used to listen to music running all the time, hard workouts, because it would drown on my breathing and I felt like I could push harder when I couldn't hear how hard I was working. But I ended that, started listening to music only on easy runs and it's changed how I can run in

races for the same reason you're saying. You become way more in tune with your body, how you're feeling you're used to it. So it's not like such a shock when you hear yourself breathing hard in a race. So that's kind of our role as well, I'd say. Something you said, Kate, I'm curious about now all three of you. You said often you don't need more motivation, right? It's just about like being controlled and listening. So I'm curious about all three of you as professionals. How often do you find yourself wishing you had more motivation during an effort in training versus like, nope, it's good for me to know how hard this is because that's letting me know if I'm going too far. I think age rupers, amateurs a lot, we're like, oh, I wish I just like wanted to go do this 20 minute interval three times.

Well, I think, I don't think we always want to do the hard, hard stuff. Like it hurts. It's not always the most fun, but it's part of what's making us better. It's part of why we do this and we reap the benefits later when we race well. So I think that kind of feedback you get from the performance later is enough to motivate us to get out the door. I don't know, speaking for me. Yeah, I don't know. It's been an interesting thing for me by transitioning from Olympic distance to 70.3 because, you know, we've gone from like do five by five minutes up a hill and you hit a big number that's really exciting. And then all of a sudden you switch to like, okay, do five by 20 minutes at a very unexciting power.

And it's just, you're like watching the trees go by and you're kind of bored because it's not that hard. And that's sometimes on the bike, I do. I do bring the music in for that when it's like, I'm going to be doing intervals for like two and a half hours. And it's just for interesting. Yeah, versus like really hard two minutes or three minutes. Like the music is not necessary or I don't really think of it.

Okay. You were saying like sometimes you've pushed yourself into a functional. over, non-functional overreaching. So do you feel like you never really need that? Like if the motivation is always there, it's just like trying to battle that physiological stuff. Yeah. I think first of all, if it's raining, I listen to music.

So I'll just put that out there. You're talking about like the long boring intervals. Like I think when we do things that are really tough, I'll like, I'll be like, okay, if you get through this one, like you can have, you can listen to music and like have some snacks. No, I think for me, it's really understanding, like, what does good look like in this workout? Like, what does doing this correctly look like? And I think there's a phase of your career, or at least my career, where, like, every year,

the goal was just to do more harder than I did the year before. And, like, physiologically, like, we were stretching the rubber band to as far as it would go. And, like, every year I did way more. And every year, like, you know, those PRs. like five minute power or 20 minute power like go up a lot and I think for me now it's like understanding um how to harness the right motivation so like it feels really good to do a workout correctly and that doesn't always mean like getting yourself psyched up to like hit a PR number because that might actually like be counterproductive in the moment totally that comes down to like

having a really good communication with your coach as well knowing like exactly what is the purpose of this session, is it to hit some really exciting number, or is it just to hit these numbers as calmly as possible? And I think that's also like a lot about your relationship with your training and your body. Like I think a lot of that has come, not necessarily from my coach, but like from thinking about racing, analyzing race data, like thinking about how I felt at different times in my career and like identifying some of those goals myself because your coach always gives you a range. And I think for a long time, I, like, probably put too much into, like, just doing exactly what was on paper perfectly. And I think that's something that can be good.

Like, it definitely worked more for me as a young athlete. But I think the nuances where you can really, like, make those 1% gains. So, for example, like, if I go out and he gives me a 15-watt range, like, I have to make the decision, not just, like, in that entire workout, but, like, down to the minute, like, what power am I going to write out? Like, what feels right? What accomplishes the goal of this workout? And to be able to make those decisions really, really well as an athlete, you have to actually educate yourself on the science of training and know, like, okay, what's happening to my blood lactate at this time? Like, what did we test at recently? How do I feel? Like, what's that T1, T2 number? Like, how do I produce the outcome that we're looking for out of

this workout? Yeah. Yeah. Something that now, like, a hearing, you say all this stuff. And now I'm curious, how good are you? And this is something we've been talking about recently, the three of us. How good are you on easy days at actually going easy? And if there's a temptation to not go easy, how good are you at getting around that? I'm pretty good at it now. I think, yeah, it's definitely an ongoing process. I think the big question for me is like in terms of like rest days, like complete days off. Like I used to never take them. Like I literally would take maybe one day off, maybe. a month early in my career.

And now I think I've seen a lot of benefit from like making those easy days, not just even an easy ride, but like truly off. And that's something that I never used to do. And for me, it's really helpful to have like some flexibility in that. So like you can designate it as like an active recovery ride day or an off day. And then I can respond based on like how I feel that day. If I'm feeling like, okay, spin will make me feel better. I have someone fun to go with.

I can take my dog. Monty is being extremely cute in the background, by the way. I think he wants out. I think he does. Look at him. He's like, Mom, please. I'm bored. Yeah.

I think we're kind of similar like that the days after a race. We don't really get a schedule from our coach for like five or six days. And we're just kind of listening to our bodies. And sometimes it's like, man, I actually feel like going swimming. That'll make me feel better. But when it's not like written on the schedule, is even just go do an easy swim. When he makes a decision to do it, it feels different.

Intuitive training. Yeah, it's good to have that back and forth. I feel like it's, it also comes up to the experience. So our last question here is one that wasn't directed specifically at you, but we thought it was a cool question for all of us to just discuss. This is from Nick, not me though, even though I do love this question. Nick with Justice C. Nick with Justice C, yep.

Hi, guys, really enjoy everything you do. Love following along with the videos and podcast. I'm wondering if any of you have ever considered working with a sports psychologist. I know there are many additional pressures and factors when competing at high levels, and working with the right person might help with strategies to navigate the low points after tough races and hard training days. Is this something you would consider?

Thanks for all you do, Nick. After my race in Oceanside, I was very open about my disappointment and the struggles afterwards, just wanting to be home. So the outpouring of questions that are related to this, like mentally, how do you deal with that and bounce back for a race that's kind of. coming up two weeks later that has all the best athletes in the world at it. And it's not easy. I'm not great at it.

And we don't work with a sports psychologist, but it's times like these where I think it could be super beneficial. And not only in the low points, but just how to manage your emotions through these times. And not every race is going to be perfect. But like you said earlier, Kate, the first race dictates a little bit your confidence and how things have been going in training. So when it goes well, that's great. but when it doesn't, you just start to question everything that you've been doing all year.

So that's the point I'm at. Do you work with a sports psychologist? I have historically. I actually like after 2021 switched and started working with a few new people. I actually work with like a therapist who's like sports focused. And that's like probably the main source of that type of support. And then I also work with, I have this great mentor. who's an amazing Buddhist meditation teacher.

And I work with him a lot on like meditation, managing emotions, processing, all these things. And I think what you just said, like, I love that you were open about that and shared it because I think people assume that once you get to a certain level or you achieve a certain result or you have a certain level of legitimacy that like those results won't rock you anymore. But the fact of it is we like put everything into what we do. And so those emotions, like, are part of the game. And I think working with people that can help be kind of like a mirror to that and help me, even as like talk through that in a place where it doesn't like spiral emotionally, like it can if you're talking to like coaches or family members or people that like are really deeply emotionally tied to you.

So that's really helpful. And I think there's two things like I felt the same way after my first reason. the season and there were two things that really helped me thing one my um therapist said okay when she used to do races she had a rule for herself that like you can feel 100% of the emotion like for that full day so like let's say you race in the morning like you can be like 100% of that feeling feel it all day and then like the next day you reset and I think that's something that has helped me because I've often been like oh I shouldn't be so upset about this and you like fight it a little bit and then you end up like drawing it out so for me it's like okay no this is

terrible I hate this this is the worst race ever I'd like to quit okay new day I'm back to training yeah yeah and then the same thing I think my husband's really good about this and like this is where I think you know if you don't work with a sports psychologist if you don't have those types of resources close family members close friends people around you can also help kind of like mirror a broader perspective of what's going on. And after that race, I was talking to my husband and he said, I need you to understand

that there's a reality out there that's possible for you to be living in where this was like a blip in the radar and like you had a few adjustments to make and it was like feedback that, okay, yep, it confirms like where you thought you were you can make these changes and the rest

of your season is like epic. And the only thing that's like presenting that like preventing that from being your reality is your mindset around it. Because the story I was telling was like, I was so fit in February, then I made this mistake, and now I'm terrible. He's like, okay, but like, listen, how much better does a story sound? And like, what if we just like, what's a worst case scenario if you believe this?

Okay, you continue to try hard. You make the adjustments and it doesn't work. Okay. Like you're in the same place as with the kind of negative view of that. Well, that is extremely helpful. That was a really bad one. I love that you said it because, like, I say things like this and they just, they just float off into the ether.

That's the tough part about having your significant other tell you things is sometimes, like, I want you to feel bad. You're just trying to make me feel better. It can't be real or whatever. Right, right. Having some outside perspective is important. Yeah. I usually try to call my dad because my dad is, like, pretty even keel.

And he's really good at just being like, man, that sounds tough. Yeah. But I know you'll figure it out. Like, that's hard. What you're doing is hard. I'm like, thank you. That's all I needed. It's just somebody to be like, you're not being, you know, just a pouty guy or something.

And that, you know, not try to fix it necessarily. Right. But like you're 100% right. Like these early season races, like we started off the whole podcast talking about it. Like they, you want to go out there. You want to see how your training's going. Get back into the feeling of racing. Try out some new equipment and stuff.

But like everybody's going to remember who's the world champion in the fall and what happened in the middle of the summer. I couldn't tell you who won the race, the triathlon in February last year. Right. No idea. But I know who won world championships. Yeah, the bigger races are later. Well, I think at this level, like, we're judged by our best performances. And that's something that I think is so hard to remember because I think I judge myself

based on like the days that I don't execute the way I thought I should. But really, like, in the course of a career, you're going to have a ton of races like that. And if you can learn to, you know, take them on the chin and get better through that process, I think they ultimately, in my experience, they're always somehow connected to the race you win. So, like, for me, every big win I've had has been, like, pretty well connected to a change I made or, like, something I thought about or a strategy I tried following a big failure. Totally. Eric, you've talked about how therapy has helped you in the past as well.

And I was curious for you, Kate. And you, Eric, if there is, for a lot of age groupers out there who are hearing this, are like, oh, wow, this would work for me. I can't believe I've never thought of this. What do you think, even for myself, because it's something I want to look into as well. What should I be looking for in a therapist? Like, is it just like, oh, we get along? Or is it like, oh, they ask me questions that make me feel uncomfortable?

Like, what's the secret sauce? They have sport. Yeah. Do they know about triathlon, you know? Yeah, I guess I don't feel super equipped to. answer this, but just from my experience, having someone like Kate said, who is a therapist that maybe specializes in sports or has some understanding of sports is good, rather than, I think a lot of people might think, oh, I just need a sports psychologist when really someone

to just help, like, let's get life, like, totally dials so you feel good about who you are as a person and the sport part is like not necessarily, I feel like you could end up just reinforcing that, like you're right you are who you are in the sport is like who you are as a person yeah i think that's a great answer i also like don't feel super equipped to give a professional opinion on this but um in my experience i i think that sports obviously it's no secret like they're such a metaphor for life like they give us all these experiences that we learn from and we learn about ourselves and we process all these emotions in like really intense difficult situations um and i think working with a sports psychologist for me always had this like end goal of winning it was like I am going to

talk about this negative thought I had 40 minutes into this race so that next time I'll win I think I think like having someone that's sport focused and is like maybe a little bit of a broader perspective has been really helpful for me because it's it's not necessarily only outcome based like it's helping me better understand my relationship with the sport and have a more positive trajectory of like pursuing this really hard thing that I really want to do. And that's like very like tied to who I am as a person. It's a way to express who I am as a person. But it's not the same thing as who I am as a person.

That's beautiful. Amen. Love that. Are we out of time? Do you how to go? I have one actually follow up question. One follow question. I'm just super curious because like in triathlon.

everybody like I started a YouTube channel like five years ago and everybody has just kind of collectively decided I guess as a triathlet I got to have a YouTube channel and that is not such a thing with mountain biking and and I'm just curious like have you ever thought about that and or you know like what are your thoughts on you just do Instagram which is sounds wonderful yeah I mean it's a super it's a very good question I've had an interesting kind of relationship with it that's evolved I would say a lot in the last few years um 2021 like 2020 leading into 2021, I was pre-qualified for the Olympics. I won the World Cup overall in 2019.

So I for sure went into that Tokyo cycle as like a favorite. And then I didn't race my bike for like two years because of COVID. And during that time, like I had so many requirements on me, not just like as Kate the racer, but like Kate the persona of like being in interviews, going on podcasts, being in like filming for documentaries. and series and it just like kind of broke my soul by the end of the year when the racing wasn't going well. And so I kind of had this like come to Jesus moment where I've really committed at this phase to like making sure that for this period of time like racing is it. Like I am saying no to a lot of things and like trying to kind of like limit polls on my time to really focus on this next

Olympic cycle. And hopefully I focus on it for one more cycle after that, depending on how well it goes. But yeah, for me, that was kind of like an intentional choice, like scale back on everything and protect that time and really like get my performance back on track. And I'm sure, hopefully I'm able to do that. And then there'll be like more requests and more asks. And I can kind of like revisit the situation then. But I think, yeah, it is a balance.

And for me, it's just something that I've kind of tried to like keep pretty low maintenance at this time. Yeah. Awesome. Well, it really does help that you've got the great broadcasts that we're on Red Bull TV and now on Discovery. Like, we can legitimately see you racing every weekend. And that is very hit and miss in triathlon. So, well, but you guys also like, I love your guys' YouTube channel. It's like such a well done look at what you're doing.

and I think that storytelling is like very beautiful and powerful and something you can't get elsewhere. But I also know you like love doing it and you're really good at it. And I think that's like part of it as well is if it's something you like enjoy filming and editing and it's like you can do it on the couch in your normatite boots and like have it be your off day and do that. Like it fits in really well. So I wasn't like I think it's different for everyone. Like for me those skills don't come naturally. Like it takes so much time and it makes me really like self-conscious about telling my story versus like I think when it's done through the broadcasting or through partners telling stories like it I'm able to like be more natural and and not be distracted by it. Yeah.

No, that's totally awesome. That's kind of exactly the answer I was hoping for because that's a little bit my feeling with how it's just become like this kind of expectation with a lot of pro triathletes where I see somebody put up a YouTube channel and kind of like, man, like, everybody doesn't have to do this is not for everybody and it's strange that it's like an expectation versus i certainly got into it with that in mind like i just i like filming these things and like creating emotions through that so i like to think of it as like primary and secondary work so like for me the primary work is like racing my bike and like trying to tell that story is like secondary it's not like something that's going to be like the thing i do after racing right like yeah it's not my primary skill set but like speaking and writing

love. Those are like, in my opinion, like primary work. There's something that like could become a full time skill set or tool or something that I like really want to focus on long term. And I think having that distinction between like those things you want to invest in and prioritize and like build the skills to do versus the things that are like documenting the primary work like just posting pictures on Instagram of bike racing is just documenting that like primary work, I guess. Yeah. Totally. I love it. I can already tell you you have a knack for it. We ask you these kind of simple questions

and you give us a philosophical thesis in like a short amount of time. That's perfect. I learned a lot. Try not to talk too much. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Follow her on Instagram and anywhere else. No, we know you're busy, so we super appreciate it.

And it was good to catch up with you. It's good to catch up. Hopefully I won't be living in a parking lot next time I see you. But I love to. You can stay with us anytime. Yeah, you can stay on our drive. Maybe I'll upgrade. Slash house.

Upgrade to our house, yeah. Cool. Well, thanks, Kate. And good luck in Brazil. You said Missouri next to race. Yeah, good memory. Thank you. And good luck to you, too.

I'll be falling all season. All right. Awesome. Thank you. Later. Bye. Bye. Bye.