That Was Us - Agree to Disagree | "The Most Disappointed Man" (S2E7) with special guest Debra Jo Rupp

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

This week on That Was Us, we break down that intense courtroom scene with Randall's adoption case judge (Delroy Lindo) and how his scenes in this episode sparked major discourse among This Is Us fans. We also discuss Kevin's "nightmare" confession to Sophie, how Mandy, Chris, and Sterling are surprised by the show's twists and turns, and what it is like to gain an audience's trust. Were you surprised by William's legal battles briefly intersecting with Jack and Rebecca's court case? Plus, special guest Debra Jo Rupp (the social worker!) joins us to share her memories of working on the show!  That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Follow That Was Us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Threads, and X! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of That Was Us, we will be discussing season two, episode seven, the most disappointed man. Randall adjusts to the foster system, Kate and Toby take the next step in their relationship, Kevin visits Sophie and New York, and Jack and Rebecca finalize Randall's adoption. The new Mitsubishi Outlander brings out another side of you. Your regular side listens to classical music. Your adventurous side rocks out with the dynamic sound Yamaha. Regular U owns a library card. Adventurist U owns the road with super all-wheel control. Regular side, alone time.

Adventurous side journeys together with third row seating. The new Outlander bring out your adventurous side. Mitsubishi Motors, drive your ambition. Hello, friends. How's good, everybody? Welcome to that was us, the five-star hotel of podcasts. I love that. The three Michelin Star restaurant of podcast.

Three is as high as it gets? Yeah, for Michelin Star restaurants. This is the Mercedes-Benz of podcasts. We're doing all right for ourselves. This is the Mandy Moore of podcasts. Oh, wow. The Sterling Kay Brown of podcasts. Chris Sullivan of Podcast.

Christopher Sullivan. I'm more like, stop. My favorite murder. Good. How are you guys doing today? Well. Doing good. How are you?

I'm doing well as well. It was a joy to dip into this episode. It's funny because you remember the show, but on a macro level. But then when you get granular again, you're like, oh, that happened. Right. Oh, that happened in this episode. That sort of thing. Deborah Joe Rupp. Oh.

You know, Popping up as our social worker in the present day. But let's talk about the past. Okay. episode was like a surprise to me how emotional it was because I do remember the filming of it as I was watching it. I was like, oh, this episode. It was challenging with children. Children are always challenging. And I think the trick of this show is obviously if you're an audience member and you're watching, oftentimes when we have flashback scenes to the children being quite little, like toddler age, and maybe even younger than that, they're different kids all the time.

Right. And so sometimes children are children. They're toddlers. Like, they're not supposed to be on-camera talent that, you know, listen to direction. They have huge demands. They demand naps. Huge demands. They demand juice boxes. How were these young babies? How many did you have to work with as well? There were, I think it was the same three for maybe two days of work. That was split up, taking the pictures, which was sort of something that happens in the beginning of the episode. We're taking, like, family pictures. And then the actual courthouse scenes, like, in front of the judge, it was the same children.

And they were wonderful and so adorable, but they're also kids. And they're cranky because their naps are being pushed in weird directions and stuff. So I just remember it being maybe one of the more challenging shoots with kids that are, you know, one or one and a half or something. Didn't require a lot of acting. It didn't require a lot of acting in terms of, like, juggling the children. So, yes, I remember that, and I remember obviously working with the incredible Delroy Lindo. Yes. Milo and I had some scenes with him, and he was very intimidating, which was perfect.

Yes. I'm not sure if he was in character the entire time or if this is just his presence and life. He is a large and powerful man. Yes. He's a large and powerful man. So, okay, well, you guys are cleaning the house. At the beginning of the episode, in preparation for your social worker to come. Our social worker, Paula, is coming over.

And Jack and Rebecca, want to make the best impression, obviously. They want to mind their P's and Q's and do everything right and keep it, like, tight. And this is their child. So whatever they have to do to sort of get over the finish line. Yeah. And we have a montage because we have the first time that she comes, and then she has a couple other subsequent surprise visits, I believe, right, that were not announced. Because you have one announced with like this kid is trying to.

to take my nipple off. And you're like, oh, snap. Yeah. You're here. Paul is here. Hey, Paul is here. Right, but she has nothing but good things to say about you guys. It's a formality.

Everything's going to go according to plan. Yeah, so she sets us up to go to the courthouse thinking like we're, the judge is going to rubber stamp this, sign some papers, and we're done. Man, before you get to the judge, because you do say, I think we need to take new family pictures because they always have the pictures of the families up. And this is my own personal anecdote to add to this. Is that why I just ended up in the show? No, I don't know if it is or not. But I would just, I would love to speak to shooting a show and being an individual of a particular shade of soul.

Yes. Amongst folks that have a different shade. Yeah. And the lighting that goes into it, there'd be times of which the two of us have a seed. And my, like, single, I feel like the light is like, Blathing me out. Like this, I look at Mandy's lad.

I was like, that seems so nice and so... And then you see our camera, and you're like moody and kind of the shadow, yeah. But it's a thing, just trying to find the balance of it. And I thought it was a really kind of lovely thing that they discussed in the family pictures. Like the guy's like, oh, I'm just trying to find the right sort of balance. And Jack's like, just take it and we'll figure it out.

And you see later on, Mandy will cut from one shot to take Randall from this one. like, and fit them into that. Like, we'll figure it out. Yeah. Right? Okay. So this is one of the many things about the black experience that I, even in watching

the show, never even thought to think. Yeah. Like, it's just something I would never, it never occurred to me, whether it was the skin care, the hair care, this lighting issue. Oh, yeah. And our show introduces those subjects. Yes. So thoroughly throughout the story.

I would say kudos to our writer of this particular episode, Keriagum. Nigerian, Nigerian American, Nigerian lives in America, so well, and pays particular attention to those sorts of things, right? So we go to the court, we get to the judge, and you see Delroy kind of look over at the family and just sort of like has a moment of contemplation. And he says, like, I'd like to talk to your social worker about something, but I'll have you guys come back. Yeah. And you guys are like, what do you mean? Talk to her about what? Like, we think. Yeah, she's not here and she told us like everything was.

Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, like I said, I just like to talk to your social worker. So I'll see you in a few weeks. And you're like, okay. So we go to, you guys are all in the hallway. I think he's grabbing some vending machine stuff or what have you. And I think Jack, is it Jack or you?

It's like, I just want to ask him. Like, what is it that he wants to talk to the social worker about? And he's like, you know, it's not appropriate for us to talk about this right now. But if you want to talk, just go to chambers, right? go to Chambers. And I tell you, like, I felt it. I felt, I was like, and I kind of knew, I read the script, but as an audience member, I was like,

he's going to say something about white people raising a black baby. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And he says it, and it's this interesting thing. And I have it happen within my house all the time, where I'm talking to Andrew in particular, because he's 13. Amari's still a baby. Because even Delaware says in the show, I didn't know what it was to be black until I was eight or nine.

One of those two ages, right? Which was the first time in which somebody called me a nigger, right? And I know I heard this on set, too, that there would be times in which he would say it. And then sometimes he would say inward or whatnot, but for your coverage, he like said it. So you were like, boom, right? For sure. And it is one of those things. These conversations about race happened much earlier, I think.

in households of color than they do in predominantly white households, because when you are the minority navigating your way through world, you have to know how the majority sees you. Women have an acute understanding what it's like to live in a man's world. Black people have an acute understanding

of what it's like to live in a white world. LGBTQ people have a very acute understanding of what it's like to live in a straight world, right? But the opposite doesn't necessarily hold true, right? So he's saying, like, how are you going to deal with raising this black boy when you don't have a frame of experience? My father has heard it so many times.

He knew what to give me in this particular moment. And you don't know what to give him. Right. And so I'm curious, like, acting through it. Like, because there's visceral things that will happen as an actor. Like, where I'm imagining is like, I'll figure it out. You know what I'm saying? He's my child. I'll figure it out.

So I'm just curious for you. That is exactly where I came from. Yeah. And the defense of that they sort of give him, like, With all due respect, like he was dropped in a fire, like a fire station. He was abandoned by his father. Like, we love him. He's our child.

He's all, we've ever known. We're all he's ever known. But as a human, I do understand where he's coming from as well. So it's like, again, the balance as an actor of trying to sort of like draw that boundary and draw that line and going like, I can't let that infuse my performance or infuse my way of thinking. It is a great scene. It is a great story when nobody is wrong. Yeah. Yeah.

It's true. Yeah. Everyone's intentions are pure and you understand both sides of the coin, you know? But I just, I remember as the actor, yes, as the character having to like so firmly hold on to this belief of like, this is our child and we will do whatever it takes to get these paper signed and for him to like officially be a part of our family. So nothing is going to stop me, not this judge. And I respect him and I respect his way of thinking.

But I do believe that he's not correct in this instance. So what is it, what happens? There's some moment, I believe, that causes him to have a second thought that ultimately leads to his recusal. My letter to him. It's the letter. Yeah. You sent the letter. I sent the letter.

With the picture. With the letter. Yeah. Okay. Because that was a beautiful moment and just saying like, listen. And you said basically what you just said. said there. All due respect, understand what you're saying. This is our son. We are Pearson's. We don't stop. So we'll just keep showing up. We're going to keep showing up. And if I can brag on our show a little bit, a lesser show would have done that in person. A lesser show would have had the mother showing up in the judge's chambers to tell him a thing or two.

Right. A lesser show would have had the judge have a change of heart and be up on the stand. And say like, and say, you were right, I was wrong. Yeah, you're right. But the way it was handled, as I was watching, I'm like, this is, first of all, the only way this works is this letter. And the only way it works when both people are right. Sure.

Is that he does not judge one way or the other. He just steps aside. He says, I recuse myself. There you go. Because I'm not, he said, I'm not going to change my mind. He said exactly that. What I think. Right.

But he knows that she's not wrong. Right. And he's not wrong. Right. So he shouldn't be the one to decide this. Yeah. And it was like, that is some deft television. And SKB, you were saying that you ran into Delroy, like, months later.

Yeah. And he talked about how people. He said, like, he gets recognized for this show as much as anything else in his career, if not more so. That's wild. And he had two, three scenes. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Two and a half.

But the show was in the zeit guys. He's like, man, I couldn't tell you. you how many times people come up and stop me for this is us yeah and I wonder what the interaction is like not just I saw you but like I agreed with you or I like I wonder what the conversations or I wonder what his actual opinion of the opinion was so do I it's interesting so do I yeah so but okay so he does recuse himself and there's a little funny moment there where you guys like what does recuse me is that a good thing or yeah they're like we're not those people that use recuse what are like you Jack and Rebecca are a little more simple.

Their vocabulary is a little more pared down. So, yeah. I love that. But I love that they then are, they go to this, they're in front of this new judge and she very kindly finds a paper. Her name, by the way, is Connie Marie Brazelton. She is a dear friend of my mother-in-laws. Ryan and I lived in a property that she owned when we first got married. No way.

Right? And she was one of the judges. I've also now lived long enough as a black actor that I know a lot of the black actors that play judges, both of them, in this episode of Russia. Wow. I love that. Oh, her warmth. It's just immediately like, oh, this is.

You know who she was? She was on ER. Like, you know how they had like a handful of nurses that were always there? She was one of those nurses. She was one of those nurses along with like Abraham Ben Ruby and stuff at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Did that.

Wow. At the beginning. So, yeah. how that happened. So stay in the same timeline because we sort of also opened this episode on Young William, right, in front of another judge. And this guy was great. Oh my goodness. Yes. We're going to get to it. We're going to get to it. Is Sam Anderson. Sam Anderson. Who, what is he from? Another, another populated character from our TV past. I was like, obviously he's, he's gotten older, but yes. If you guys look up on IMDB, tell us,

Tell us what he's from, because I recognize him immediately. His face, his eye, he has such kind eyes. He has a kind face. I want to say, so keep going because he, so William, sort of, he's about to be sentenced. Sentenced. Sentenced to a prison for however long. But he's, he's talking to William about, you know, how disappointed he is to have to do this because he doesn't have any prior record or whatnot.

And so, and William says something to the fact that you're disappointed. Like, you could never be more disappointed than me. I'm the most disappointed man in the world. And says, like, what would you have me do, Judge? Right? People are out there selling. Would you not have me use? If you've been through what I've been through,

you would do the same thing that I have gone. I lost my mother. Like a year ago, I had my mom, I had my girl. We had a son coming. And now they're all gone. And we as an audience have an understanding of that. I think the really interesting thing is that we as an audience have an understanding

of what William went through and who he will become. And we also have this understanding of, like, how he can be perceived by someone who does not know his story. Sure. You know what I mean? Yes. Which is an interesting thing to be able to hold both of those things simultaneous because it's like, oh, I may be guilty of just seeing the surface of something

so often and assuming I know someone's story. Except filling in the blank. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he, and I'm trying to remember what led to him coming to him, But he talked about how he had sentenced a young boy to 10 years, and I had to sentence somebody else to 15 years. And when I do it, I already know what the end of their story is going to be.

Yeah. Which is a sort of interesting statement about, does rehabilitation occur with incarceration? Or is it just mean that I've now sent this individual down a path that is very hard to escape? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, I think we get to this point, the judge, you know, over the course of William's arc here, before he actually sentences him, he asked to speak to William privately. And you're like, where is this going? What's like what's happening here? And he starts to tell William like, you know, I hate that I had to sentence a young man earlier today to like 15 years

and another man yesterday to five years. And basically like, yes, I have it written down here. Which is a comment, which is a comment on the legal system's mandatory minimum. Sure. Sure. That judges are placed. I'm a judge and I don't make the rules. Right. And if this is your third offense doing something, then I have to give you blank.

And it's a big problem. The fact that he knows the ending, even when they haven't even been written yet. That they write terrible stories and I can't change the endings and how horribly disappointed he is in this. And that's when he reveals that he's going to take a chance on William. Instead of sending him down this one path, this one story that he already knows the ending to, he's going to get him help, and he's taking a chance on him.

Right. And he asks him if he ever finds himself in a situation where he potentially is going to be writing the ending that he as the judge expects, he wants him to picture his face. His ugly mug. His ugly mug. It's too old, too fat.

I was like, you're not being kind to yourself, sir. I was like, you have a very kind face. It's got to be a rough life for a joke. Having just Googled his IMDB, by the way, quick side note, the answer to your question is he's been on at least one episode of every television show you've ever seen. But he was on 40, 40 episodes of Perfect Strangers. Oh, okay. Okay, he must, yes.

It must, it's like something ingrained in me from childhood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, TGIF. So then I love that we have these sort of We have this flashback to or flash forward I guess To older flashback What this is us does this a flash forward back A flash forward back or back forward

A flash back forward To older William getting his cancer diagnosis Yes And wait Okay sorry sorry sorry So because the first one is young William out in the streets He sees people using, he thinks of the guy's face, he sees his face, he turns away and goes another.

A different direction. Yes, a different direction. Then we flash forward to older William, getting his cancer diagnosis, and sort of struggling with the idea of what is it that I have to live for, right? And you see him see his face again, but then the next thing you know, you see him pulling out some drugs and needles to use.

Yeah. Right? And he's pulling it out to use, and he's about to, shoot up and then he gets a knock on the door and he goes to he cleans up the needles puts him away he goes down to the door and he sees randall laying into him from our pilot episode of the show the geniusness of the show i was like come on brilliant so moments before he was going to shoot up and then his son arrives at his door and changes the course of his life that show was pretty good It was an exceptional moment.

It was dead. Beautiful montage. I wept. This is all juxtaposed with. Can I finish this part? Oh, yeah, yeah. Because there's one more scene with both judges. That's right.

Yes. Together. And what a... You did you do anything good today? Yeah. I don't know. You? I don't know.

Yeah. Delroy and this judge that was in charge of Williams' life. That's great. It's very... Again, yes. Chef's Kiss. Yeah, it was perfect. Yep.

Yeah, time will tell. Okay. Time will tell. We'll be right back with more. That was us. Wendy's most important deal of the day has a fresh lineup. Pick any two breakfast items for $4. New four-piece French toast sticks, bacon or sausage wrap,

biscuit or English muffin sandwiches, small hot coffee, and more. Limited time only at participating Wendy's taxes extra. All the holidays, we are always bouncing all over the place. My parents usually come to visit us for Christmas proper. And then usually the day after Christmas, we fly to see Rachel's family on the other side of the country. So there's a lot of moving parts. A lot of a lot of luggage, especially with two kiddos, a lot of stuff to keep track. That's a lot.

Well, the good news is we are in the last few weeks of the holidays. Yes, it is a fun and beautiful time that we've worked so hard for. But my gosh, it is also so stressful. As a mom on the go already, it's tough enough to keep track of everything before holiday planning comes into play. But luckily, there's Life 360 tile trackers to help keep track of everything. It's the easy-to-use tool that lets you keep track of everything from gadgets to people. And it doesn't alert anyone you don't want to of your whereabouts. Mandy, what do you put your trackers on?

Well, I have gotten this for my husband, who I love dearly, but sometimes is constantly looking for his keys, his phone, his wallet. He's lost some combination of those things. And it's like he only discovers it, obviously, as we're about to walk out of the door. We should get tile trackers in all of his equipment that he tours with. Guitar cases. That is such a good idea. Seriously, guitar cases. Brilliant.

All the stuff. Yes. And all of the instruments that he tracks when he's traveling and checks. Wow. Great idea. While tile is convenient enough to fit in everyone's talking, it's also easy enough to keep everyone and everything secure without having to worry about someone else having access to your location. Create a Life 360 map. Add your loved ones into it and simply ring your tile tracker to ensure that everything and everyone is where it should be.

It means less of figuring out where things went or why family members are running late and more having the peace of mind to enjoy the holidays and maybe, just maybe have a little eggnog too. Maybe have a lot of eggnog. You know what I mean? Too much eggnog. You're like, that's too much nog. Family proof your family with Life 360s tile trackers. Visit tile.com today and use code TWU. That's tile.com.

Code TWU. Okay, my travel vision board for 2025 involves trips back to Chicago to see family and friends. It involves trips back to New York to see friends in plays. And, of course, trips to Toronto. I can't say enough about Toronto. Fourth largest city in these North America. Is that true? Yeah.

Right behind Chicago. Wow. Yeah. I am not ready to start thinking about 2025 personally quite yet because there's still so much to do around the holiday season. But if you're already thinking about New Year's resolutions and how to maximize your space next year, consider Airbnb hosting. Listen, we're big fans of Airbnb at That Was Us, and we've shared so many stories about

wonderful trips we've taken in memorable stays that Airbnb helped to create. We'd also like to thank each and every person who thought, hey, you know who'd like to stay here? Sterling Brown would and hosted their home on Airbnb. I personally say, namaste, gracias. Yes. So, hey, why not take your home and help make someone else's stay a little bit better this year by hosting on Airbnb? You're already getting your home clean and tidy for guests. Why not? Hey, listen, you take a few pictures. You set up a host account too and be a part of Sterling K. Brown's 2025 travel. It's a great way to earn a little extra cash. And you're creating some special memories for Sterling who is planning a trip as we speak.

Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com. So that takes care of that timeline. What are we going to do next? Let's do Randall. A mirror. Another man dealing with an adoptive situation. Very much. At the foster system and the legal system.

He has to take Deja to go visit her mother. Court-ordered visit. In jail. In jail. And he's having a judgment about it. Like, you know, how dare this woman, you know, drive her daughter around with an unregistered gun? Like, that's the most irresponsible thing. And Beth's like, well, you know, you don't know.

It's like, no, I don't know if I have any patience for this at all. Like, I'm going to do this because I'm supposed to do it, but I don't really want to be there. You know her story without really knowing. Come on. Come on. You without sin cast the first stone. Like, we're all the way that we so. Snap judge folks as human beings.

Yeah. Because it's easy to be able to put somebody in a box and then you just sort of like don't have to deal with them anymore. Sure. Right? And the show is always challenging us like, hey, just be careful of these boxes that you throw people into arbitrarily, right? Black, white, whatever.

Anybody is capable. Whatever the situation may be. Right? So we go to prison and whatnot. I guess I remember working with Lyric on this, the young Dajia, and she's very serious-minded young lady. Yeah. So I'm always trying to do things to try.

to get her to be like laugh that's most of my scenes with lyric is like can I get her to smile right so we go to prison and we it's a real defunct prison and it's always sort of an interesting thing when you do the have you guys done the real defunct prison thing and it's like oh I don't want to be here yeah energetically it's like no I don't like these places yeah this don't feel good yeah um so So we go, Randall has this moment where he shields her eyes because he doesn't want her to see handcuffs. And she's like, I've seen handcuffs before. And he's like, I've seen handcuffs too.

And she's like, on TV or real life? I'm like, come on, man. Like, real life. And he's like, it's TV. On TV. Right? We go in there. Deborah Joe Rupp, our social worker is telling us, good news.

You don't have to be between a partition. Today you actually get a chance to hug your mom. Right? She's so excited. So looking forward to. to see in her mom. We go inside, we're waiting, I'm talking about her hair. Again, just trying to be silly, get her to laugh or whatnot, enjoy herself. Debra Joe comes up and she says, you know, something happened. She doesn't want to see. Yeah, she opted out of the visit. I was like,

I didn't know she could opt out. Like, she said, yeah, you know, it's a court order, but she has the option of not, you know, coming. And I sort of like say something. I was like, man, who's looking out for this kid, man? Like, this is some bull. Like, she went through all of this stuff to be here to see her. I'm like, and it's sort of like inditing her as well. Yeah. It's like, you guys, somebody has to be caring for the child. And she's like, look, bro, you, you coming after me? And this is, this is shout out to all social workers. They're saints. They're saints. The things that they see. Yeah, it's nuts. It is incredible because there's a very high turnover. Yeah. And social work. It's a matter of like two, three years sometimes. Understandably.

Understandably. I can. I can't imagine how emotionally, physically, soul taxing is. And she basically reads him, like, look, before you tell me, if I'm looking out for somebody or whatnot, I learn sign language for people who have, like, ear drums layout so I can tell them things. Like, I know how to say it. We haven't found parents for you yet. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So, and then Randall sort of, like, says, my bad.

Yep. I apologize. I apologize. I put you in the whole system in the box. and I don't fully understand. Yeah. Goes back, tells Deja, something happened. There was a confusion. Folks, yeah, he makes up the story, confusion.

She said, what can I get my purse? I brought some money. I've been saving my allowance so my mom can get all the stuff that she wants in here. So he's like, okay. So they leave and you see a delightful flip of R&B where Beth is at the time, like, this is ridiculous that this woman put her through this.

I love it when they flip. I love it when I was like, wait, I thought I was going to be mad at when she's like, no, she's like, no, it's me right now. Yeah, even in the course of the episode. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's, yeah, completely flipped. Yeah, yeah. Rachel and I have done that before where it's like, I can tell it would not be healthy for her to get upset at a person.

Like, she's trying to focus on like the solution. Yes. And I'm like, do you mind if I for a second? And I'm like, this is, and I go on a little rant to just kind of let the steam that someone's feeling out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have it for Ryan now every once in a while, too. It's like Ryan's like, I don't like it when you get mad Sterling. She's like, can you stay calm?

Ooh, I want to say Sterling mad. I don't get mad often. And my kids will say the same thing. Yeah. Like, dad doesn't get upset often. He's like, when dad does. Oh, I bet. That's the point.

Yes. That's the prison part of your personality is like, people like, I don't want to be here. No. I definitely don't like this. I want to see you angry. Just like. On the sidelines, and not at me. And you need it so that people can tell the difference between this situation.

You do. And that situation. Absolutely. Absolutely. So then we get home. We have that scene, R&B, and then Randall goes back to visit Shana himself. Yes. And we see that Shana actually got jumped.

Faces sort of black and blue beat up says, I didn't want my daughter to see me like this. and they sort of have this conversation about who's best for Deja or whatnot. Randall says something like, well, I'm on this side of the glass. And again, she's like, you think you know my story. Like, you know, I was trying to get myself right and then comes Lonzo.

I'm carrying his gun for him, sort of try to keep him, you know, something from happening to him. And I just got caught at the wrong time with somebody else's stuff, right? And the interesting thing about is that Randall then has a moment of realization after recognizing that he was very judgmental

and assumed that he knew who this woman was. People did that to my dad. He's like, I thought about William. He's talking to Beth at the end of the episode. Yeah, that monologue. And he has this monologue. We're saying, like, you know what? I think about my dad and where he was in life

before I showed up, et cetera. And just the idea that, like, people would have seen him a particular way. And he didn't get a chance to be a part of my life, possibly because of perception or what happened. you. And we could be guilty of doing the same thing. And she asked to talk to Deja. I gave her our number, told her to call collect. She's going to call tonight. And Beth's like, all right. And you see Deja on the phone at the end of the episode, smiling, giggling, talking to her mom, okay? That's where that one ends and it will build into stuff as we move forward. But again, two people who are not wrong.

Yeah. Right. It's an, it's absolutely. You know what I mean? Yeah. You understand both perspectives. Yeah. You do.

You do indeed. And that's, that's the balancing act of everything. It is. Of being human. It's to hear and understand both perspectives. You know what, Chris, like to that point, like even just where we are in the world right now, it is so, and I will, I do not exclude myself from this. When I hear people espouse things that are contrasts,

to how I see the world, the tendency and desire to vilify an individual is very strong. Instantaneous. Instantaneous. I'm with you. I'm with you. And to try to hold the space to recognize that my perspective is a perspective and not the perspective is something that you have to constantly remind yourself of. I heard on one of my other favorite podcasts, someone say, you know, if I were you, I'd be you.

Sure. It's just like, yeah. There's a thousand things that have happened to this person to lead them to this perspective. Right. And it doesn't necessarily mean like, you know what I mean? They are wrong or evil. We've all landed. And even in that conversation at the jail, she says, you've landed where you are because of a lot of things that have happened in your life.

Right. Yeah. And as have I. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Yeah. That's that.

Kev or Kate? What are you going to do? Let's do Kev. Yeah. Div. Dive. Go. So he's stalling, he calls Sophie and is stalling on going to visit this.

to go to New York, to visit her, I guess, to move to New York? He is getting sweatier. He is getting grayer. His bags under his eyes are getting bigger. Darker, yes. He just knows that things are, yeah, things are spiraling in the wrong direction for him. He's calling Sophie, telling her he's not actually going to be able to make the trip. And he just lies.

Lies, and effortlessly. Easy. Yeah. And I was like, oh, Kev, that's not true. Like, why are you... As the addiction takes over, it becomes... More drinks, more pills, et cetera. Then he decides he's going to go see her.

He goes to see Kotobi. Cotobi sort of announced the... Oh, is that when they announced the pregnancy? He goes over there, like, I guess, looking for counsel? Yeah, correct. Yeah, exactly. Trying to get something from his sister. And then they have the thing with the me and the me.

And you see... Baby, baby, baby. Baby, baby. Sorry. Baby, baby. That's later. Thank you. And you see in Kev's face just sort of this recognition of happiness for them and I'm not in that place.

You know what I'm saying? It takes everything for him to remove himself from his self-centered... Narcissism. Yeah. You know, self-seeking thought process. Yes. to show joy for them being pregnant, yeah. But is that also, you think,

what potentially pushes him to go to the jewelry store and make sort of a big gesture? Maybe thinks about his father and thinks about what his dad would have done. And, I mean, he says as much in the jewelry store, like, oh, whenever my dad messed up with my mommy, like, always went and got her a big piece of jewelry or something. And he decides he's going to go see Sophie,

he's going to try to make things right, and he's going to bring three rings with him. This isn't Ringling Brothers, bro. Like, make a decision. Well, this is, this is the kind of first, first, uh, take on the grand gesture as a positive thing. Yeah. Like, you really look back and go, was it? Is that how you, so when you screw up, you just go by jewelry?

Like, it's an old, it's an old line of thinking, antiquated way of thinking that's like, this solves things. Even, even when it comes to like, Toby and his grand gesture. It's like, hey, pump the brakes a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How about a sincere gesture? I'm not saying there's not sincerity in this, but better sincere than grand.

Sure, I agree with that. So, okay, he gets all three, and then we see him, he's back on the East Coast. Yes, visiting so. At the hospital, talking to his other favorite nurse, what have you, and he goes to the bathroom, and he's got pills in the bathroom, And that's when he sort of goes through this imagining of what parenthood.

Yeah, he's asleep or he's asleep in the waiting room. Like he goes, he travels all the way and doesn't even tell him he's coming. Right. Which is also like, okay, thank you for the grand gesture. How about a little, how about a little forethought? Heads up, yeah. How about a little consideration? So, yeah, he does, he sort of falls asleep in the waiting room, waiting for her

because she's gone to another hospital for another shift or something like that. Yeah, she went with a transport. Yes. Yes, and in the course of this, he sees himself as a father and sees him and Sophie back together, and it's just... It's not a good look. It's not what he would have dreamt of. I think when you're having, like, drug-induced illusions of, like, what the future is going to have, like, painkillers, not all different drug, but painkillers in particular might not elicit the joyous future that you might have had in other circumstances. That's right.

That's right. So he does that. Yeah, I mean, he goes to, she doesn't come back to work. She ends up at home. Yeah. And he goes to her house, and we find him at her door again. And she's confused. Like, I didn't know you.

I heard you were here, but then when I went back to the hospital, you were gone. Right. And he's like, yeah. And he goes on this rant. And I don't remember everything. And an entire audience is going, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't do it. Yeah.

No, God, no. But he says, I don't know how to be a husband to you. I don't know how to be a father to our kids. And then later he says, I'm saying, when I dream of our future together, Sophie, it's a nightmare. It's a nightmare. There's no coming back from that. He repeats nightmare twice. Yeah, he also says that he's trying to be his dad or to be Toby and he's playing apart.

Right. It's not him. It's not the real him. Right. None of that is. This is the real him. Yeah. And Alexandra Brackenridge gives the most hurt expression, I think, in the every episode

of the series. And sound. It was like such a visceral, like, wounded human. Yeah. A lesser show would have given her something to say. No, a lesser show. Yeah. She just shuts the door.

She just like makes this guttural sort of moan. moan and like shuts the door. Yeah. It was heart. Heartbreaking, like in that moment, I was Sophie, and I was like, I can't believe this dude is a nightmare. Like there's certain words. Can't unring that bell?

You know what I'm saying? If I said to Ryan Michelle Baffay, I just had a dream of what our life was like together. It's a nightmare, Ryan. A nightmare. She'd be like, well, Negro. There's the door. You get the, goodbye.

I suggest you go back to sleep and try again. That's what she would say. Hey, why don't you take a nap and take another shot at it? Yeah. So that's where we'll leave. That's the end of Kevin and Sophie for the foreseeable future. Yeah. Now with Cotoby.

Yeah, you know, Toby can just see Kate kind of excusing, making excuses for moving things along. Yeah. Right? She's worried. But also, but also the excuses come on Toby's side too because of his relationship with his mom. Right. And now they're having a baby out of wedlock.

Yep. And he has a mini panic attack about calling his mom. She puts him on the spot. Yeah. Well, here you go. And you're like, oh, am I doing this? What the hell? Are we doing this?

We're leaving the message? Yeah. Okay. I don't know what it's. So it's so fun. Chris, thank God Toby brings the levity. Great! Yeah, you bring the levity to this show.

It's so necessary. It's so needed. And again, I feel like it's the thing people forget about the show. It's like it's so fucking funny. Yes, agreed. And so Kate, Kate is saying, you know, or who's, whose idea is it? It's Kate. Well, let's go married.

Let's get married. Let's just go. I don't need a wedding. Right. Even though, you know, she may need a wedding. And she convinces both of them and her. herself, really. Like, this is why having a big wedding would not be the move. It's too stressful. And she makes every excuse under the book. And you're like, okay. Except we, as the audience knows,

I think she actually, like, she is so close with her brothers. Like, it is, it is strange that this is the path she's, you know, proposing to take. Yeah. They end up at the courthouse and it's a very similar feeling to ending up at the jail. I don't want to be here. Yeah. This isn't the way I pictured it. This is interesting. Desicide, Arlene Brown, mother to Sterling K. Brown, married twice each time at the courthouse.

Wow. She said, she's like, you know what, I had, you know, I'd rather spend the money on a house than spend it on these things. Yes, Arlene. Practical sort of person, but also a bit of a stick in the mud.

Because when you say, like, Mom, we're going to get married and we're going to do these things, she's like, oh, I just got married at the courthouse. And we're like, thanks, Mom, but what about this one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was you.

This is me. There you go. There you go. But because the guy says like, and whoosh, you're married and like, oh, whoosh, that's the sound of getting married or whatnot. And you hear Kate go through like, you don't have to worry about father-daughter dances and I have to worry about my dad taking me down. Like all the things that she's like glad about you. Yeah, yeah. Are you really glad about that?

He thinks the lady. Protests too much. Indeed, sir. And so you sort of pick up on it. And there's this delightful scene. I wish we had him here right now. I haven't been in my car probably right now. You travel around with dead Jack.

You're watching something. Are you watching Judy? What's that in your backseat? That's the ashes of television character Jack Pearson from the hit television show. This is us. And you're having the conversation. Get out of the car, sir. You're like, I don't really think this is what she wants.

You know what I'm saying? Like she says that it is, but I know in my heart of hearts that it's not the way to go and just needed somebody to talk through. It was really adorable. I love when you guys, and I think maybe I have a couple, but are able to take these scenes when you don't have anybody else to talk to and make it feel like a conversation. Yeah, like a two-way conversation. Again, our writers did do such a good job, the scene with The Earn,

there was the, have we already talked, we haven't done Kevin's. No, that's next episode. There's all these monologues where people are just all by themselves. Even you with the babies. With the robotic babies. Yes, we all have them over the course of the show. Sure. But the writers made it real easy. Yes, but a lesser actor.

Come on now. That's right. On a lesser show. On a lesser show. That's right. Would not have been able to pass that off. No, I can't help it agree. I mean, because if on the paper, on paper, if you read, character talks to earn on the table, you're like, oh, how's this going to go?

Not me. I was at home going finally. Yeah. I got all these other actors out of that. the goddamn way. Yeah. And I can shine! Yeah.

Two kings of romantic gestures just having a conversation with each other. And then... So then you come later... With your grand gesture. You do... With Toby's grand gesture, which required five hoodies. Yeah, with the right... I think the writers were just messing with me.

They're like, you know, I know that the suit's a little uncomfortable for him. He's always warm anyway. What kind of gesture... Maybe we'll put him in like five or six hoodies? It's such a beautiful thing because you keep unzipping them and you can see Chrissy about to have a reaction you're like, there's more.

I know you know what this is when you see Will. Yeah, right? But there's seven more words in those settings. Bear with me. And you decide together that like, look, I think that you say that you don't want this, but I think you walking down the aisle with your two incredibly handsome brothers

and being able to celebrate it amongst friends and family is something that would be good. So you propose. Because she says before, like everything we've done has been backwards. Like, I'm the one who proposed to you when I didn't think that you could hear me, et cetera.

And so, like, you actually take this moment to say, like, no, no, will you marry me? Yeah. And she says, yes. And it's really, really quite lovely, right? It is. So that was this episode. And we're also very excited.

But this episode sets up what we do for the first time and that we repeat a few times in subsequent seasons. We repeat it one more time. Just one more time? Just one more time. Which is a big three series of episodes. A big three series. Kevin episode, a Kate episode, a Randall episode.

And I feel like we are on the precipice of a lot of transition for everyone, right? Yes. Kate and Toby are potentially going to be getting married. They're having a baby. Kevin's relationship is on five. crashed and burned and Randall and Deja and her being a part of the Pearson's family now is yeah yeah there's just there's a lot bubbling up there as well so it's it's and it is I think it's a very fruitful and sort of like exciting moment for us as a show because every once

a while you think you know what the show is and Dan does a great job of like the format is essentially what it is but within that we'll every once in a while do something that's just a little different, right? Just so, like, every time you think you know exactly how it's going to go, we change it up. And I, as an actor in it, was always exciting to know that we could play with form. Same, and that our audience trusted us enough. They've had, as you have always said so eloquently, they trusted us, they felt safe enough with us to go on the journey of like an entire episode that is just about one character. Sure. And maybe not even in this particular instance where there's a Kevin episode and a designated Kate episode, Randall, but sometimes

Sometimes it was a character that you... They'd never seen before. Yeah, that you didn't really know much about, and they still were willing to go on that journey with us. But I agree, when we would get these scripts that felt like it deviated from the formula or from what we were sort of expecting next, I was always so excited.

I can't wait to do this, I can't wait to watch this. Yeah, man. Yeah, so more to come. Yeah, we are going to stick to our formula and send you some commercial... It's Matt. Some Matt. And after that, we're going to talk to...

Debra Joe Rupp. Yes. We're going to be right back with more of That Was Us. More That Was Us after this short break. The Conjuring Last Rights. On September 5th. I come down here, we need you. Hooray!

Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! The Conjuring, Last Rites, only on Theater September 5th. Whether I'm tackling the chaos of life as a new parent yet again or juggling a pack schedule on set, it's Peloton that helps keep me balanced.

Peloton has everything you need to keep on track with your goals, no matter what season of life. life you're in. I feel like Peloton can go hard. Yes. Or Peloton can go easy. Absolutely. Nice and smooth. I completely agree. Like if there are times in which I need to train for film, there's these boot camps that kick my butt up and down. If I just want to relax a little bit, there's a wonderful meditation, yoga, whatever you need, Peloton has it. I love that even if you have 10, 15, 20 minutes or something, you can get an incredible workout in. You can get on the bike, on the tread. You could do a floor workout, like, it sort of covers the gambit, and Peloton always keeps you on track.

And it's not just about workouts. With Peloton, you can find exactly what you need to get centered and motivated, whether visiting family, adjusting to a new city, or stepping into a new chapter of your life. It's like having your own wellness partner ready whenever you are. Dude, I'm so glad you brought that up. Because just like Randall needed those moments of grounding during all those twists and turns, Peloton offers the flexibility to fit into any schedule, any season. Imagine Randall's squeezing in a quick yoga session to manage stress. It's all there on Palatine, ready to adapt to whatever phase you're navigating. The Pearson's schedule was always packed with the big three's activities.

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Find your push. Find your power with Peloton at OnePeloton.com. Ladies and gentlemen, my people, my people, the holiday season is officially here. And you know what that means? Endless parties, indulgent treats, and lots of family time. It's great. But let's be real. All that stress and cold weather can take a toll on your hair.

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The cold, dry air of winter can be unforgiving, but your hair doesn't have to suffer. For a limited time, Nutrafall is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutrafall.com and enter the promo code TWU. Find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend NutraFol for healthier hair. Neutrefall.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com, promo code T-W-U. That's Neutrofoil.com promo code T-W-U. Ladies and gentlemen, we are back with more of that was us, and we have a special guest with you today.

Our dear friend of the show, Ms. Deborah Joe Roe. Hello. Hi. Hi. So we were just talking about, we were shooting in season two and the Emmys had happened and I was blessed to have won the Emmy for season one. And the next day I had to be at the prison to shoot our scene together at the prison. And Dan hit me up the night before and he goes, listen, you don't have to do this.

But if you're interested, I think the crew would really love to see the Emmy. Yeah. Right? So if you could bring it to work. So you brought it to work. So I brought the Emmy to work the next day. and everybody was taking pictures with it and like running around with it

and Debra Joe said that she was just trying to get close to take a picture with it. But Debra, the tricky part is he brought it, he brought it every day. Subsequently. That was the, that was the kind of like, we get it. The flex. We get it. And then as he won more and more,

he kind of ran out of hands to carry him. And he brought a person to carry them for him and follow him around. I've been the person. I might have totally been the person. I didn't actually get to touch. I was excited. He just pointed to it. You're like, can I hold it?

And he was like, no. It is so good to see your face. Oh, you too. Mandy and I were just talking about seeing you do a play by one of our writers, Becca Brunstetter. The play was called Cake. A beautiful, beautiful play. And you were exceptional. Absolutely.

Oh, thank you so much. But it was the writing. It truly, Becca is really great. one of my all-time favorite writers. I mean, she might be my all-time favorite writer. She writes the way people talk. Yes. And she's so bright and...

Agreed, agreed. And then the question that we were asking ourselves is, was Becca the person that brought you into the show? Is that, like, how you got introduced to our world? No, it was Dan. So, like, the group of you came to see Becca's work. and Dan came up and said, I'm going to find something for you on This Is Up.

Really? He did. And then this is what it was. Wow. This is what it was. I was, no one usually will hire me for drama. I usually do comedy. I'm fine.

I'll do anything. But it was so nice to have that opportunity. It was just, and to have it come from a play, because theater is my love. You know, I love a live audience. So it was just really nice. You smashed. And then I got to, I worked with the Emmy Award winner.

So that I mean, you brought the drama in the current episode that we're talking about. And for anybody watching, they are well aware of your dramatic abilities. Absolutely. We're just talking about the scene in the prison where we find out that Shauna was not going to come see Deja that she's opting out of that whole thing. And then Randall sort of indicts you as like, is anybody looking out for this kid? And you give me a look like, excuse me, sir, you think what you think I don't understand what's going on here? Do you know what I have to deal with on a daily basis? Oh, and the most heartbreaking example. Yeah. You want to talk a little bit about

how you've read me for points and sort of destroyed me in my own show. Is that cool? Yeah. I just remember I had never been in a prison or a jail or I've just never been in there and I and there was um there was like a door and it was closed but you could hear commotion behind it yeah do remember that and and there were inmates on the other side of that door yeah and I just remember looking up and seeing things that I've seen in movies Sure. You know, but I was actually standing in the space, and it just really, really hit me. That scene was so easy to do because of where it was, and because of you, Sterling, but it was really quite something.

Well, I mean, that just speaks to your ability because there's so much like history and familiarity with what you sort of brought to this character and this character. this particular scene and just like that this is your life, this is your job, just day in and day out, like you visiting jails and bringing, you know, reuniting children with their parents and visiting and all, it's just like, it's wild. I wish I had worked with you, Mandy. Oh, me too, me too.

Mandy's pretty awesome, me too. Mandy's awesome, Chris is awesome. Yeah, and me, Deborah. And you, Deborah? And you, Chris, and you. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. I was saying to Chris at the beginning of the podcast, too,

that being in that space, like, I was immediately felt with, like, I don't like this being here. Like, this is not a place that is pleasant to be. Like, the vibe is such that, like, oh, I feel like I want to get out of here as soon as possible. And sort of even shielding her from it, like Sterling's shielding lyric and Randall's shielding Dacia, like, it's a weird spot. to be in. Yeah. I remember that really clearly. Talk to us. Okay, so you don't often get a chance to do drama. Obviously, you did something that took place in the 60s or the 80s, some show. I can't

remember what it was. Yeah, some are 60s between the 80s, something. Some show like that or whatnot. Do you have an equal enjoyment in both environments? Does it matter to you in terms of which you enjoy the most? I know you can do it all. Do you enjoy one more than the other? Well, I think that the more instant gratification is the is the comedy okay because it's kind of instant yeah it's you know if you're succeeding or failing like right there drama you don't so much know uh plus drama you have to really follow the through line like you have to really read the script so much more because you shoot it out of order so you really shoot it out of order so you really have to kind of know where

you are all the time. sitcom, you know, sitcom is like doing a little one-act play every week and it's easy and it's fun. And either one is fine for me as long as I understand the character. And I understand the through line.

It's very hard for me to play characters that are close to who I am. Okay. I recede. Oh, interesting. I fall back. The further away, like neurotic people, crazy people, even though I can be that, I'm a little

more down to earth than that. But those people are so fun for me because they're a character to me. I can just be them. When they're close to me, like this was a little bit. I feel like this is how Deborah Joe would have said all of this. Gotcha. It's harder for me. I don't know if you remember Sterling, but the first time I did it, you know, Becca came out and talked to me.

The writer came out and talked to me and I was working a little too hard. And then Becca said, just you, just you. And that's what I did the second time. I'm going to cry. That's what I did the second time. And I remember Sterling, you went, that was amazing. I have to get out of here. Yeah.

I remember. It was really nice. Yeah, you could, well, also a testimony to being able to take a note. Like, you're just like, okay. I got it. I understand that. It all went away and it penetrated. And to provide Sterling with an opportunity to react in a way that earns him and Emmy.

That's all I really want. I need good work for me. For me. I totally get that, though. Yeah. How many episodes of the show did you do? I would say three or four. Yeah, yeah.

I was about to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. great first scene when you first bring Deja to the house.

Yeah. As you leave and I was like, so that's it? And you're like, yeah, that's it. I was like, I don't know if I'm prepared. And you're like, no, you are. And I'm like, you know, I've been looking up some stuff. And you're like, hey, man, you're going to be fine. Just take it one day. And it was this time of year. Yeah. Because I remember pumpkins and I remember the leaves. Sure. Yeah.

Did you do any sort of research into the world of social workers? Did you? I did. Okay. Actually, I had, there was a girlfriend that I had in high school, Gail D'Agostino, who was a social worker. And I don't know if I saw her at a reunions, because sometimes I go to my class reunions. And anyway, I contacted her on Facebook, and I had a long talk with her. And she's the one that said, no, you see so much of it.

You do not get emotionally involved in it. Yeah. You, it is your job. Right. And you do your job well. And so she calmed me down. You know, she, because honestly God, I just wanted to flail around. Right, right, right.

But it seems like if she was a long-term social worker too, it seems like you can't do it without getting to that place. If you are too emotional, like, I think you just- You burn out. You burn out. It sounds like being a New Yorker. Yorker. Like you live a life and you see a lot. And you start to like, listen, if I'm going to get from the Upper West Side down to the village, I'm going to have to put up a little bit of a shield.

I cannot fight every battle along the way. I feel it's true. I want to say this is completely non-secretive. Your hair looks amazing. You look. Oh, you're so nice. It's the only thing I have left. No, no, no, no. My hair. The whole face, like, I remember, like, I have a little bit of a crush. And as I see these beautiful lips on the camera, I'm like, yeah. Okay. That's a good look. No, I'm just saying it. Jeez, all right. I remember. I said it's her on set, too. She knows.

She knows I got a thing for it. Do you want Mandy and I to leave? You guys can take over this. I'll take some time later. It's all good. Talk to us a little bit about what you've been up to since. Like, has there been more theater? Has there been more shows? Like, what's exciting? Right now? Yeah. Right now we can see you on Agatha all along,

right? Ooh. Yes. Yes. Congratulations. Which makes, is this your first? Thank you so much. I just have had, I've just been incredibly fortunate. My career is, I've never worked more, and I'm an old person. I'm just so fortunate. And I work with really good people, and I don't know how it happens, but I have done theater.

Yeah. I've done a lot of theater. I did, I got to be an executive producer at my age for that 90s show. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you. And then Jack Schaefer with Agatha. I did Wanda Vision first. And people, I just luck out.

I work one thing and then they bring me along to another thing. I think you kind of create your own luck, man. You bring the pain and people want to. You bring the power. And create your own rope. There you go. Thank you. Excuse me, sir.

No, I shall have my time with Deborah as well. Thank you. Geez, I'm going to get out of here. And where do we find you right now? Where in the world are you? I am in the Berkshires right now. This is my home. I am in the process of getting rid of the rental house in L.A.

I have an apartment in New York City that that 70s show bought. I'm selling that. I'm out. I'm just done. I want one house. and it's going to be in western Massachusetts in the mountains. My best friend lives in Great Barrington.

Oh, there you go. I love it up there you go. So beautiful. And I yesterday drove back and forth from Ohio and I picked up a puppy. Yes. Now I have a little puppy. So life is really, really good.

That's fantastic. Trevor Joe, thank you so much for making time for us. Oh, no, I was so excited. I was so excited. when I was asked to do this. Thank you for thinking of me. Well, your work is exceptional. We're so glad to be able to celebrate you and celebrate it.

And so grateful you are a part of our show and a part of the podcast now. What a beautiful, beautiful show you created. It's a, it's a beautiful show. Bless you. Thanks for being part of it. Thank you, guys. Enjoy that puppy. Have a good day.

And we're back. And it's time for our fan segment, ladies and gentlemen this one's gonna be fun yes it is we get so many emails from you guys and we want you our fans to know that we really do read them we appreciate them we love them that's right so instead of just reading one letter today we have aggregated a collection of many letters aggregated uh a word you didn't think you were gonna hear today but now you've heard it so can't unhear it let's go to the let's go to the community display what we got here this is some this is some quote this is a bunch of quotes a lot of quotes listen

Just taught me to love my perfectly imperfect self. Help me find meaning in my journey. Yeah, gave me a second chance at what? It doesn't say, what? It gave me a second chance. Help me process unresolved trauma. That's beautiful. Gave my life direction.

It gave me the ability to explore my feelings, confront my past, and find hope for my future. I love all of that. Reminded me I'm not alone. Normalized that life is messy. Change my perspective. That's all I want from art is to be reminded that I'm not alone. Literally, period.

Yeah. That's it. It means a lot. That's all from a photograph, from a painting, from a TV show, from a song. That's all I want. Yeah. You're not alone. It's true.

It's true. Help me see clearly. Goodness gracious. Provided the closure I needed, but I could never find. Wow. Didn't shy away from the tough conversations. That's right. We had the tough conversations, so you could have the tough conversations.

I remember, I think I've told you this before, Ariane Moed, actor, he and his wife and their two daughters used to watch the show and used to whatever the show was talking about, take the opportunity to delve in. To jump in and talk about whatever the show was talking about. And it was like an easy way into those conversations. Well, because it's also a reminder that just because it's tough doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

That's right. Yeah. Or that it has to be tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unburdened my heart, brought meaning to my life. I, I loved, healed me. Yeah. Did we say normalized that life is messy? Yeah.

We did, but it bears repeating. Go back to it. Normalized that life is messy. Yeah. People often wanted to say that the Pearson's were the perfect family, and I was like, what do you mean? Are we watching the same show? What do you mean by perfect?

Because you're not wrong. Right. They are, you know, subjectively a perfect family. But they are, there's messy things going on. There's tough things going on. But what is perfect mean? Exactly, Mandy Moore. It reminds me of like when people say they just want to be normal,

and it's like, what is normal? Like, show me what normal is, and then I'll tell you, like, if you can be there or not, because there is no such thing. Yeah. In the same way that there is no such thing as perfect. It's just like our perception from the outside of what we think perfect is. That's right.

I want to be more like Jack Pearson. Well, what part? Yeah. The alcoholic? Right. Or the loving father? the one told Sandy more to go ever. Yeah, like, which, which, right?

Yeah, and when you take all of it, it turns out you probably are pretty close. Come on now. You have your flaws, you also have your really great qualities. Sure. I think the thing that the show tried to show is that even in the midst of it, and even when you fell down, people kept trying. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Like, there was no giving up. Like, even though, like, I've made a mistake. I've fallen flat on my face. Let me see if I can. and pick myself up and figure it out anew. It's just people turning towards each other instead of away from each other over and over again. That's it. Period. That's the show. And so thank you for all these little lovely excerpts that we took and probably totally out of context.

And aggregated. And aggregated, making an amalgam of what this is. I hope you enjoyed your daily aggregation. Not aggravation. Hey, not aggravation. y'all want to get aggregated why don't you send us an email it that was us pod at gmail.com or perhaps leave us yeah you want to call us yeah call us at 412501 3028 that's our emotional support hotline yeah leave a message sing us uh sing us a mandi more cover or don't sing us a mandi more cover of another sing

His umbrella. Oh, a cover of a cover. It's like inception. We want to hear from you. That's it. Maybe we'll call you back. Thank you very much for tuning in. Tell a friend.

We'll see you next time on that. That was us. Peace. Bye. Welcome back to the retread segment. The retread is brought to by Peloton. Find your push. Find your power with Peloton.

That's right. The most disappointed man on this episode. episode of the podcast. We talked about how in the past, Mandy Milo got to work with Delo Islando. Who's the judge? He was the judge. He is just such a force. We talked about how incredible he is, how

regal he is, how intimidating he is. We also talked about how sexy Deborah Joe Rupp is. Who is very sexy, very beautiful. We got a chance to see her. Again, it was a joy to behold. We talked about William in the past and sort of second chances that the judge gave

him and how things wind up working out and dovetailing into him meeting Randall in present day. Like, just when you think things are going to make a bad turn, we wind up finding that just at that moment, Randall pops back up into his life, which is kind of lovely. And really just how a reminder of not to put one another in boxes. Yes. Thinking that we know the story, that we know the ending, and prejudging folks is never the way to go.

Ask more questions. There you go. You think you know what people are going through. You do not. Yes. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton.

That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da da da-da-da-dum. That was us.