That Was Us - Beth Closes The Ballet Studio | "The Music and the Mirror" (514)

Episode Date: June 9, 2026

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 5, Episode 14: "The Music and the Mirror." As Beth questions her future after the collapse of her dance studio, Kate searches for purpose and confidence, Kevin reflects on the life he’s building with Madison, and Toby struggles with feeling lost after losing his job. In this episode, the hosts chat about: * Chris’s journey from competitive tennis to pickleball * Mandy’s evolving relationship with music and finding her way back to singing * Parenting, communication, and helping kids navigate big emotions and boundaries * Beth’s emotional journey as her dance studio struggles through the pandemic * Randall learning that sometimes support means showing up rather than fixing the problem * Kevin’s disastrous movie screening and growing doubts about his future with Madison * Rebecca and Kate’s emotional reconciliation and the healing of old wounds * Toby’s struggle with unemployment, pride, and asking for help They’re also joined by Abby Romeo and her mother Christine, from Love on the Spectrum, to discuss: * How This Is Us helped them better understand one another * Abby’s experience as a Gestalt thinker and why the show's flashback structure resonates with her * The importance of openness and representation when talking about autism * Abby’s songwriting process and how music helps her process her experiences And a friendly reminder, you can catch new episodes of That Was Us every Monday, a day early, exclusively on Hulu. Available on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts on Tuesdays like usual! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Don’t just take my word for it – go grab one for yourself. Head to Walmart today to try a bar or stock up on 4CTs of your favorite flavors, like Blueberry Pie and Salted Peanut Butter, sold exclusively at Walmart. Check out https://Walmart.com to find a store near you! - You can also find Unreal products anywhere cravings hit, including at Whole Foods, Target, Costco, and other grocery stores Visit https://Unrealsnacks.com/TWU to get $2 off a bag of Unreal. Terms and conditions apply. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a headgum podcast. On today's episode of That Was Us, we're diving into season 5, episode 14, the music and The Mirror. As Beth questions her future after the collapse of her dance studio, Kate searches for purpose and confidence, Kevin reflects on the life he's building with Madison, and Toby struggles with feeling lost after losing his job. Hello, guys. What's going on? Oh, hello. We were just saying this is, this episode got us in the beginning.

Yeah. Like before the credits even. Before we even got to like this, this is us. I forgot the name of the show. It was us. This is us. Yeah, that was them. It was, well, because it reminded you of how many small businesses just could not make it through that pandemic.

Yeah. It was a massive kit to everything. And all the ingenuity, you saw restaurants coming up with outdoor. dining so that folks could continue to come or what have you, but like some people just couldn't make it. And so my TV wife, Beth, after like finding this dream and sort of like pouring her all into it and opening up the studio, there's this montage and the kids are dancing and things are going great. And then COVID hits, right? Yeah, because it was September, right? Of like 2019 when she opened the studio and then I march. Then they're doing class and masks. Then they're doing class.

over Zoom. Right. And then there's... And then the population of the boxes. That's right. There's population in person, because the people in mask and some people are like, I'm not going to do this in a mask. And so now they go to the Zoom and there's all the boxes, and then the boxes get fewer and fewer and

the final class is three little boxes. And one of the boxes is Annie. I was like, oh, what a sweetheart. Yeah. I just realized that there's an Annie in Paradise Ann. and this is us. I just realized that. Really?

Do you think Dan did that on purpose? I'm going to ask him if there's something about Annie. Because that's interesting. Sorry. Is there an Annie in the land? No. Okay. So maybe not.

Maybe not. But it was, I cried. I legitimately cried because, I don't know, there's something about Sue as Beth that is particularly like, I don't want to see her go through anything. Like, I want her to be protected at all costs. Sure.

Because she's so strong and does so much for her husband and her family that things should go well for her. Yeah, always. That's how I feel. Like, things should go well for this woman. You know what I'm saying? It took her a lifetime to actually have the courage to do the thing that she loves and then to have it there and then circumstances beyond anything.

Anyone's control. You know what I'm saying? Took it away from her. Yeah. Oh. I feel like our audience felt that way, too. Yeah. Like, we're just, everybody can have whatever opinion they want about anybody in the show.

But Beth? Yeah. We're coming for you. Like, never, never faltered. All good things for this woman, please. Only good things. And I have something bad. Oh, it was a heartbreak.

Yeah. But then I want to, this episode and these last two in particular, leading into, because the finale is 16, right? We only did 16. Oh, that's right. Yeah, we have one more. So we have one more episode. I can't believe that. This is 14, then we'll do 15. What I am sort of struck by in this episode, or this run is, it feels very Empire Strikes Backish, which means, let me clarify, things don't always work out the way that you want them to. Right. Like, I think our show is overwhelmingly positive with regards to you put one foot in front of the other. And even when life gives you lemons, you make lemonade or what have you. And I think that stays true through

this whole period. But like, things don't go according to plan. You know what I'm saying? There's a certain feeling of like, as I'm watching it, because I know what's about to happen. And I see the foreshadowing of things. And I see people speaking into each other and trying to say, like, everything's going to work out. Everything's going to work out. And you know. And you know some of those things just don't. And that is, there's another crux of our show, right?

Yeah. Is that life must be approached with the hope that everything is going to work out. Yeah. And the flexibility to receive the impact and, and share. when things go wrong. You hope that everything's going to go the way you want it to. Sure. But you have to know that it's not going to.

Yeah. And so how do you how do you react when that happens? Yeah. How do you hold both of those things at the same time? That is like the trick of being human, right? Yeah. It's like playing, it's like trying to trick your brain. Because hoping and the reality of the world are two totally different things.

Sure. And so how can you possibly hope that everything is going to go well when you know it's not going to? Yeah. Like you are committed to staying on the path of, I don't know if it's a path of positivity or whatnot, you know, looking for the best possible scenario but not attached to an outcome. Yeah. Well, because at a certain point, like if you don't have this engine that allows you to get up, and put on your clothes and believe that something good is for you that day and the next and the next.

Then at a certain point, you stop putting on clothes. Right. You stay in bed. And even though you know it's not going to be perfect, you're like, well, you know what, today's a new day. And today's a new day. And if it didn't go that way, well, then today's another new day. Like, it's not easy. No.

You know? And it's interesting to see it like in these next couple of episodes. And it's weird watching it, knowing what's going to happen, because I see, like, Randall saying things, and I see other people, like, trying to speak positivity into something. And you're like, and sometimes it's just, that's just not the case, you know? So, you guys want to do the Beth storyline? Sure.

First? Yeah. Is this going, because now I get confused as to whether or not it's 14 and 15. Hold on. We have this montage, right, that we talked about with Beth. But it's also sort of juxtaposed with young Beth kind of tossed in there as well. Yep. And her love of dance and her abandoning that.

Yeah. You see her throw away all of her ballet. Yeah, all of her point shoes. That sort of tree of old point shoes. And like all of the work, all of the years of discipline to wear down those point shoes, to move on to another pair of point shoes. and it was just like to watch that unceremoniously dumped into the garbage. Yeah.

I remember I thought about this when I quit tennis, my freshman year of college. Yeah. And it was like the exact opposite for me. I walked away and was like never look, never looked back. Never looked back. In fact, walked out into the, it was tumultuous when I quit because I was having issues with the tennis coach at my university. Okay. and I was angry at the situation,

but not at the, like, leaving tennis. And I think I shattered both of my rackets. Like, I walked out into my dorm hallway, which was two cinder block walls and just wall to wall, just there. Now you're never playing tennis again. Wow. And then just went to theater rehearsal.

Like, just done. Is it because for you as opposed to Beth, Do you feel like you were following a path that you were supposed to be following and not that you truly wanted to for a while? Yeah, I guess it was just a path that I was on. Yeah. And it was like, oh, well, the next thing is you play a college and you get a little scholarship and you're doing it just because you're doing it. Yeah, because that's what you've always done. And then at a certain point, you're like, wait a minute, I can't do this.

I can't do this anymore. I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah. My body already is telling me. You can't really do this. Yeah, yeah. Like my, my, I would get, I would get partial dislocations in my shoulder and my sleep. In your sleep.

Because my joint was so stretched out from, you know, years and years and years of this motion, you know, the service motion that I'd wake up and my shoulder would be dislocated. Oh my God. And I, and I'd be like, no, and I'd have to like, you know, partial, not like a, not like a, not like a Mel Gibson, you know, slamming it. Slamming it against it. But yeah, I was like, it's a crossroads. I think it's a crossroads for a lot of people, right, at a certain point in their life where it's like, is this for me? Yes.

Was this someone else's idea? Sure. And it happens a lot with faith. Yeah. Where I was like, is this for me? Right. Or was I just raised this way? Yeah.

And maybe I need to step away for a while and see if I actually like this. Like, just this last trip back to Battenham. Rouge, someone's like, come play pickleball. And I was like, okay, all right, fine. And I'm like, oh, there it is. Yeah. There's that. Did you like it?

I liked it too much. My knees hated it. I was like, I'm already, I'm still swelling and like all that stuff. But it was like, you know, I walked away from that competitive thing for a long time. And it was like, yeah, I guess I enjoyed the competition more than I enjoyed tennis. Okay. You know what I mean? I hear you.

But yeah, it's, did you have anything like that? No. No. You held on. We talked about this in our last episode. Well, guys. About you knowing what you wanted. Knowing what I wanted.

Lazy-focused. I have my own tumultuous relationship with music that I'm working through. Say more. I'm like, am I going to cry? Wait, wait, wait, wait. Sing more. Sing it. Let's say a song response.

No, I'm kidding. Go ahead. I think I just like, I've realized that I have a lot of baggage to unpack from certain relationships in my life early on, early in my career, before there really was a career, and people that sort of were naysayers and really like emotionally traumatized me and made me think very little of myself. And then there were echoes of that same treatment later in life in a relationship. And it was like having to understand pack both of those traumas that stay with you.

I went to this energy healer the other day. And I know, it's crazy. I thought that I was going just to get acupuncture. But it ended up, it was someone that had like, like a friend who was like, oh, you should go see this acupuncturist. And I was like, oh, okay, I'm not very good at doing things for myself, you know, like self-care. So I will go and keep this acupuncture appointment. And I walked in and there was like crystals and singing bowls.

and I was like, okay, like, not 100% my scene, but I respect it. Like, cool, I felt really good in there. And it ended up that this woman, like, did some energy work. And sure, she could have known who I was. I don't think she did. And she certainly wouldn't know about my relationship to music. But she, at a certain point, as she was putting in the acupuncture needles and sort of, like, touching me, you know, like, you know, a massage. and whatnot. She was like, why are you singing? She was like, why, why no singing? And I just went,

like, ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And she was like, oh, your body, your body wants you to so bad. She's like, I don't know if this is something you do professionally. She's like, but I'm not even talking about that. I mean, I just like, around the house to your kids, It's like your body is aching to your throat chakra and your creative chakra down there are so gumbed up. But like I can just feel in your body, your voice is like trying to come through. It really wants to come through. And I was like, yes, I know exactly what you mean. And so it's like that's my lot in life of, and I've done a lot of therapy and stuff.

But it's like I think getting to this point, this age, being a mom, being at a point. point in my life at 42 years old where I'm just sort of like, why am I denying that? Why am I denying myself that? Why am I belittling that side of my life and saying like, oh, no, that's always been a hobby. It has, but it's like it is a very, very much a part of me. But even like with our live show, it was like, I was sick. Like I, and I make these excuses for myself. I look, I live with an artist, with a musician who, like, his day job is to sing all the time and make music and play and stuff. And I'm like, oh, I just sporadically dabble and dip my toe in. It's not my day job.

So therefore, when I do have to go sing for something, it's like, I'm like, it's like not going to the gym for a long time and just expecting yourself to be in shape. I'm like, oh, I need to not only practice that, but like my soul needs it as well in some capacity. And I sit there and I'm like, why am I not writing music with my husband? Like we go to bed every night and like sit and watch a show or we read or we whatever. I'm like, I literally could be like downstairs with my favorite musician in the whole world, like writing and playing or just singing or whatever. And it's like, anyway, all of that. That's a long diatribe that like this healer picked up on something that was not even something I was thinking about. I did not think I was going to go and have any sort of experience.

I literally thought I was just going to fall asleep and have some needles put in my back. And that was not the case. It woke in something, it woke something up in me that I was like, I need to pay attention to this. That is real. And that is something I've been denying and downplaying. And so all of that to say, it's something that's more top of mind. And like, I was just asked to do something where I have to sing. And my initial reaction, I was on the phone talking to these people, they're like, oh, we would love for you.

And I was like, can I think about it and let you know? and I thought about it. And I was like, this is exactly what I need to be doing. And so I talked to Taylor and he was like, yeah, why aren't you doing it? And I was like, yeah, why, why not? And so then I called them back and I was like, yeah, I'll do it. Just because I was like, my instinct is always to be like, no, no, no, I don't do that. It's not something I do anymore.

I don't really. And I even said that to these guys. I was like, no, I'm not really singing these days. And they're like, totally, totally, totally up to you. And then it was like, I will do it. Yeah. Anyway, long diatribe for no reason. No, not for no reason.

But I relate to Beth in that sense, where you're like, and not you, where it's like, I didn't, I never really walked away being like, and I'm, that chapter of my life is done. It's like, I want to get back there fully where it is, because I've done some more work with this energy worker. And it's like sinking back to the thing that nourished my nectar, my. my essence as a kid and music and that sort of unadulterated singing and how that felt and the joy it brought me and it's like I want to find my way back to that.

Yeah. You know? And so that's what I'm working on. More, that was us, after this short break. I think one of the most important parts of life is indulging in a little bit of me time. I mean, for me, it kind of looks a little bit different. Okay.

on any given day or any given week. Sometimes it could be a glass of wine. Sometimes it could be a massage or a facial. Sometimes it could just be like a bath by myself and my bathroom when my kids are asleep and just knowing that I'm going to have a little piece of mind, I pop on a podcast. You know what else it could be?

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every night. Chocolate and coconut? I'm always a fan of as well, too. Kids go down. Yeah. My butt on the couch. Yes, sure. One peanut buttercup in me mouth.

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where you don't overplan every single minute. Exactly. Sometimes the best memories happen in those moments that aren't scheduled. Sir, that's basically the Pearson family motto. Yeah, and somewhere during the trip, I realized that while I was off making all of these memories, my place back home, no!

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I think one of the most important parts of life is indulging in a little bit of me time. I mean, for me, it kind of looks a little bit different on any given day or any given week. Sometimes it could be a glass of wine. Sometimes it could be a massage or a facial. Sometimes it could just be like a bath by myself and my bathroom when my kids are asleep and just knowing that I'm going to have a little piece of mind. I pop on a podcast. You know what else it could be? Unwrapping and Unreal

and sinking my teeth into something delicious that is a blissful me moment anytime I want it. Unreal is on a mission to unjunk the world starting with chocolate. Their vision for the future is a world where all food is 100% real. Yeah, they're committed to making products

with way less sugar and simple, real ingredients, but they'll never make anything that doesn't taste truly delicious. I'm talking truly, man. Like, I get off. Like on the peanut. Anytime they put peanut butter and chocolate together, bro.

Every night. Chocolate and coconut? I'm always a fan of as well, too. Kids go down. Yeah. My butt on the couch. One peanut butter cup in me mouth. It's all you need.

Yes. You know what? You can find Unreal products anywhere. Craving's hit, including at Whole Foods, Target, Costco, and other grocery stores. As a special offer for our listeners, visit. visit unreal snacks.com slash TWU to get $2 off a bag of unreal. Terms and conditions apply. If you listen to this podcast, you are well aware that all three of us are absolutely

obsessed with David Protein bars. A big part of my health journey over the last couple of years has involved consuming large amounts of protein. And a big source of protein for me has been David protein bars. They go with me everywhere. When I pack a bag to travel, a box of David protein bars goes in the check bag, and I take four or five with me on the carry-on. I mean, I am constantly pulling out of David protein bar and getting the nutrients that I need to keep my day going strong. I have three kids.

Life is busy. Sometimes mom's needs fall by the wayside, unfortunately. I hate to say that, but I make sure their meals are prepped. They have breakfast, lunch and dinner, but sometimes I'm running out of the house and I have realized that I've forgotten to eat. And that is where David comes in so handy. I have one in the car. I have one in my purse. I have one in my setback. I have one in my carry-on. I make sure I always have a David on hand. Now, what do these bars offer? They offer 28 grams of protein, 150 calories, and zero grams. That's zero grams of sugar. You know that we are obsessed with how indulgent they feel. It tastes like you're having dessert.

It tastes like a candy bar, but better. And knowing that you're getting all of that protein with 150 calories is the best. David is now available at Walmart stores nationwide and on walmart.com, where you can try a single bar for only $2.97. Don't just take our word for it. Go grab one for yourself. Head to Walmart today to try a bar or stock up on four cartons of your favorite flavors like blueberry pot. or salted peanut butter sold exclusively at Walmart.

Check out Walmart.com for a store near you. Because we start these things for a reason. Yeah. We start them for love. Yeah. We start them for sustenance. Yeah. For nourishment.

Oh, yeah. And then they get wrapped up in other things. And sometimes it's hard to figure out. Like, I love theater rehearsal. I love all of these things that are now involved. Now am I acting as paychecks and press and PR tours? And there's so much else involved. Time away from my family.

That it's like, no, no, I still love this. Yeah. And how do I get back to that essence? But there's something simple or what would seem so obvious about singing, right? It's this sound that we are these biologic acoustic machines that walk around and make noise. Yeah. Right? And we engage in rhythm.

and we engage in harmony, and we engage in melody, in ways that are not technically musical. Sure. But it's what we're doing all day long every day. And our body wants it. And I did a project a while ago, a long time ago, that talked about recorded music. And the idea that recorded music, some would say,

was the birth of music. And others would say was the death of music. Because before recorded music, if you wanted to hear music, you had to make it. Yeah. Whether you thought you were musical or not. Yeah. And it was a communal experience. You would get together with your family.

You would get together with your tribe, whoever. And you would sit down and be like, we need some, this party needs some music. Or this gathering needs some. Or how about a song? And early days of recorded music, it was just people recording. all the songs they knew that they didn't write. And it wasn't about being a songwriter. It was about like, these are the songs that we use to commune.

Yeah. I find, like, isn't it funny how we, because we can listen to Adele singing on a recording, you're like, oh, well, that must be music. That must be what singing sounds like. Oh, boy. You know, but then we have other artists like, you know, or Bob Dylan's or, or, who are like, well, that's also singing, according to some.

Yeah. But I mean, you know what I mean? Like, they're the people who move past that or who subvert that or who make us think about it differently. But that's so fascinating to me. Like, because I feel the same way. I feel the same way about singing. Do you? Yeah, yeah.

That's interesting. I feel the same way about a lot of things. Like you were saying, like when people, hey, will you do this roast? Absolutely not. I don't do that. No. Okay, I'll do it. Because as soon as I have that feeling, I know it's something I probably need to look at.

I remember you saying that recently. And yeah, yeah, it's a lot on back guys. I'm going to get back to the show in a second. Sorry. No, no, no, no, no. I appreciate you guys sharing this because like everything leading up to the live podcast or whatnot, you know, Brown would express his trepidation about singing the show. And Mandy, you said something that sort of hit close to home. Like, I remember as a kid loving the sing. Yeah.

S sang all the time, did all the musicals in high school, et cetera. And I can remember this moment where somebody very close to me. I was sitting in the car and I was just sort of like messing around and I missed the note. And I remember this person just making this face like I had hurt their soul. And I was like, I don't want to do that anymore. Like, I really don't want to do that anymore. little moments. You know what I'm saying?

They burrow in. Oh, my goodness gracious. And to hear the Shantus that is Amanda Lee Moore say that she has similar feelings. Like I'm wondering, like you were talking about being blacked. Do you sing to your children? I do, but it's funny. I don't, like, I don't sing to Lou as much as like singing was very much a part of like a nighttime ritual with Gus and Ozzy. Yeah.

And it hasn't been with Lou. And I thought, I've been thinking about that. I was like, oh, we should say, because she's a very easy baby. Yeah. And she's never really fussy. But if there are any moments where, I don't know, she's not feeling great or whatever, singing does really soothe her. I mean, it's like, it's so silly.

Of course, like singing soothes children, like sweet singing. But it really, like, it's, yeah, she'll sort of stop and look, I think, because she's so not used to it. But yeah, it's very sweet. So I need to sing more to her specifically. And to hear you referred to it as something that you do on the side is an interesting, it landed on my ear in a really interesting way. I was like, Randy Moore does everything. You know what I'm saying? You guys are sweet.

But the way it hit me too was, and so what if it is? Yeah, yeah. That's not a negative. It's not a negative. It's also something, even if it is a hobby. It's like that doesn't lessen its value. Yeah. But I've always regarded it in that sense, not in a negative connotation, but just not giving it as much weight.

Sure. And therefore, it makes it easier to be like, oh, it's not really my thing. Sure. I haven't made records. I haven't toured in a while. I don't, you know, like, it's. But that is the bar for being a singer, too. Like, for me, it's like, I was like, oh, man, if I can just go on this late night show and they ask me to give them a couple of bars, that's a big deal for me.

but you used to do this and now you're like, oh, I don't really do that. Yeah, yeah, not in that same. It's just not, it's not my day job. So I feel like I'm gonna just bow out. Right, right, right. Anyway, anyway. But the body, it's interesting,

but the body knows. The body knows. Yeah. The body knows. Hold on to that truth. Sickness, injury. You know, it can get a little woo-woo, but the body knows.

I love a little woo-woo, though. The body is, I got crystals, bro. Yeah, I love crystals. Yeah. I do. I don't really have any, but I like them. Yeah. But there are certain, there are certain churches with quote, I'm doing figure quotes around,

that would say that anything wrong in your life, sickness, injury is a crystal for that. Is or is related to something spiritual, you know? Sure, sure, sure. And part of me is like, well, that's not wholly incorrect. No. Yeah. You know? Like our body holds on to that trauma.

Yeah. For sure. It metabolizes it in a different way. But like, yeah. Because there's chemicals involved. There's cortisol involved. And so Beth, in this story, has all of this, you know, to get back to it, is all of these feelings connected to dance, right? Yeah.

And then even in the flashback when, this is the episode where they go on the date, right? It is. And Randall tries to surprise her with taking her to the ballet. And she won't even go watch. Take me home. Yeah, it's like turn the cab around and take his back. Yeah. Because there's too much pain around her correlation to ballet.

And we watch Beth as well sort of like present day in this moment in the midst of the pandemic. She's going to throw herself back into the corporate world. And she's going to get on a Zoom, right, with an urban planning firm locally. It's like, it's not even like begrudgingly. She's just sort of like, no, this is my next step. Yeah. Like, I did that.

It clearly wasn't in the cards for me to have dance in my life in the capacity I thought it was going to be back in my life. You know, so now I'm going to pivot. And yeah, it's interesting because, like, there's not, there's not even like disappointment in her voice, which, like, makes you, it made me feel even worse. for her. I was like, oh, this woman just is soldiering on with this grit and this determination of like, well, I'm going to make something else work. And you know what this cost her. Her husband's clocking that she's eating dry cereal out of the box. And she hasn't done that.

We haven't died since like finals. It's like, Deja, keep an eye on her. I haven't seen her eat lucky charms like that since high school. Keep an eye on that. And Deja's like, I'm dealing with my own thing, you know. Malik's baby's mama's coming around once a week. to hang out and she's like, but I'll take a look, right? Beth winds up having the Zoom with the woman. The woman seems as sweet and as kind as can be. Beth's put together, got on her, you know, outfit. Blazor that she dusted off.

Yeah, not waist down, either. Which we've seen, we've seen Toby do. She had a full thing. And Annie said, hey, Mom, back straight, you know, whatever. She said, the thing that Beth always said in dance class. And as she's beginning it, the woman hits mute real quick. It sort of seems distracted. Beth has work going on.

She said, my assistant double booked me. I'm so sorry. Can we redo this? And Beth's like, you know what? Almost like a laughing fit. Like, it's all good. Don't even worry about it. She's like, are you sure?

She's like, yep, totally sure, right? Because she didn't even want to do it in the first place. And it was just like, what are the odds? Like, that I put myself out here for something I didn't even want to do. I wasn't even excited about. And this is what happens. Yeah. Later on in the episode, Randall comes home.

talks to days, like I wasn't able to, I lost contact with the, with the wife. Where is she, she told me not to tell you. She's like, great, great. So now tell me where my wife is. You know what I'm saying? And she says she's at the studio cleaning up, but like, don't be a hero, man. Don't go fix her, bro. Don't go fix it.

Like sometimes people just need you to be there. That's like one of the best things that you can do. Yeah. And it's interesting too because this is a lesson that I think can be man specific in terms of men wanting to fix or do, et cetera. Yeah. And sometimes just being is all that is really required. Yeah.

Right. And then she also comments on the fact that like how uncomfortable she is with this whole Jennifer and coming around and being around the baby. And what does it mean in terms of my place and the baby calling her mama and everything? It's like, what a lot to deal with in high school. Yeah. Ever, but definitely at high school. Yeah.

So in the past and in the present, Randall back in the past, is listening to Beth talk about how important dance was to her and what it meant and how she just had to sort of like leave it behind. I'm trying to remember if there's things that the young, because the young spoke more than the present day. I mean, she was just talking about what we were talking about with our relationship to these things that we used to love.

Yes. and how our relationships can change. And then Randall shows up at the dance studio, right? Yeah. Yeah, he shows up at the dance studio. Bad Doug. No, no. She really is.

All he does is put in the same tape that he put in several years ago of the same song. Casey and Jojo. Casey and Joe. It's good stuff. This takes you back. 13-year-old. Yeah, yeah. It took me back in time.

Junior high dance. Yeah, same. Smooching with Marisol. Oh, my God. 13? First kiss? How old are you first kiss? Yeah, 13, 14.

How are you? I think I was 14. Both of us with big silver braces, just banging them into each other. I was worried, like, would they get stuck? They did. They did? Sure. Really?

Because they had a little rubber bands. Oh, yeah. I mean, not terribly so, but it was a precarious situation. You had to be careful. Yeah. But in each case, he just, in the past he asks for a dance, man. this dance and they sit there and they dance and then she cries and she cries and then beth in present day dances with her husband whatnot and it really is this beautiful synchronicity of both of them having this

moment and i think under her breath beth there's something to the effect of like you still are too much yeah like it was really yeah just to undercut it but still but it was exactly what she needed was exactly what she needed i will say that that casey and jojo's song needs to be more specific There's that whole bridge about close to me I like my father close to me I like my brother Close to me and love my stuff And I'm just like but I think this is about romance and you need to stop bringing up your family Like you got Sterling feel inedible What are we close like? Because that's too many closes those are very different closes

Not the kind of close I want to be at the other I didn't realize it until I was listening to it again all my life Oh God Shall we move on? Yes, let's move on. Madison. Yeah. Rebecca's about to go dress shopping with her.

And then they play this game, good, bad, worse. It feels a little bit like worst-case scenario. I thought so, too. I was like, okay. Hot take, the writer's got a little lazy. Hot take. I was like, guys, we've already done this. It has a name.

Yeah, and it was successful. Yeah. But so Madison is talking about it. Kate is really funny. I just wanted to like. She's very funny. She's really, like, when she comes. over, like, hey, sorry about your Alzheimer's?

I was like, yeah. Don't say that one. I think that's what he said. I'm like, all right, don't say that one. And then you'll be fine, right? Then Nikki comes out. I don't, what did Nikki say when he comes out? He just comes out.

He's so funny, but he's going to go with Kevin to his screening. Kevin is going to the screening of this movie. That's right. The movie that he walked out on, De Niro, when Madison was in labor with the babies. So, like, there's a, he's nervous about it. And so that's what prompts them to play good, bad, worse. It's also something we hear about Madison's dad calls and I was like, well, not yet, but he calls and says that he's going to be there.

He's going to be at the wedding. And she's like, I mean, I'm happy about that, but also like this is a guy who's really not taking a ton of interest in my life, but he sees me on the cover of People magazine or whatever. Now suddenly he wants to. That's a weird feeling. Yeah, to be like close. That's a weird feeling. Okay.

Madison, Caten, Rebecca, dress shopping. Rebecca says, thanks for the invite. They talk about Kate's work and she appreciates it because you can't really talk to her husband about it these days. And over the next two episodes, you see this wonderful thing from Rebecca

with her daughter, with her daughter-in-law to be, and with her daughter-in-law, just pouring into these young women in a really gorgeous way. I don't know if you, did you clock this as well? Very intentional way, yeah. It was really, I mean, also because I think

And you'll say, I think it's in the next episode, how people are tending to treat you like a patient and less like a person. And so opportunities to just be a mother to do that thing is something that you look forward to. Yeah, she relishes that. Yeah, because maybe she didn't get a chance to do it with her own daughter. Not in the way that she wanted to. Right, because of friction and all those things that Kate goes, kind of gave her a stiff arm whenever she would try to do that. But they, yeah, they talk about, you know, the joy that Kate elicits when she talks about her job now. And therefore, the secondary joy that Rebecca gets seeing how happy Kate is, and she essentially says that.

Like, I just, I always wanted you to find the thing that you were passionate about. And it's like, it lights her up. And Rebecca loves to see that. Was there, did I hear it right? that she didn't get to go dress shopping with Kate? Yeah. What did I miss? Was that a thing in one of our episodes?

No, but I think... She just didn't get invited? She didn't get invited. Okay. Yeah. I think things were maybe a little bit more tense. Sure, sure, sure. Different coasts, for sure.

But I just don't think Kate would have wanted that back in the day. I think their relationship has, things have, they've grown closer. Yeah, this is tough. Kev Madison and Kate all sort of connect to each other. So you could talk about Toby right now. You could talk about the director. Let's finish talking about this maybe Kate and Rebecca and Madison at the dress shop. Madison, they're trying on dresses or whatever, laughing at some of the things that she's wearing.

Madison finds out her dad ends up canceling. And she's pretty, like, understandably disappointed. about it. Yeah. And Rebecca sort of saves the day. She talks about, she's like, do you know how special my son is to me? So, I mean, that only can speak to how kind and beautiful and funny and remarkably graceful you are. And this entire family is crazy about you.

Yeah. Except for Toby. Except for Toby. But like she really just sort of like does her, you know, do. you know, charming Rebecca thing where she kind of just like jumps in and is like, no, no, let me tell you how it is. Yeah. And I think that's, it's heartening for Madison because she's like, I know your mom as, you know,

as Kate's mom, but I don't really know her as Kevin's mom. And so like that there's a different relationship there. And I think she just feels kind of at odds. So for Rebecca to sort of help her feel better. about her dad not showing up. And like, really, he's an asshole and he's missing the boat essentially. Yeah, it's cool. He is.

He's an asshole. It's a real special skill, too, that Rebecca's always had, even with Jack, I mean, like, to speak truth into the world and to people who need to hear it. Like, this is how it is, or this is how it's going to be. Sure. And here's why. And here's why. It's a really, it's a unique gift because not many people can do that in a way that doesn't seem. arrogant or intrusive or she just recognizes truth and knows how to deliver it.

It's really sweet. Yeah, agreed. Kate tells Rebecca, she's a really good mom and thanks her for loving her in spite of being, you know, in spite of Kate sort of pushing her away. And, you know, and typical, it's like, it made me cry. She's like, I... This felt like a real wrapping up of a life. Yeah.

This moment. Yeah. No, with Kate, because she goes, I see every Kate. you've ever been and might still be. And it wasn't always easy, but you've always been easy to love. And I'm like, what a profound thing to say. Because, yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy being a parent.

And I don't even know the breaths of any of it yet because our kids are still so little, but I can imagine that it's just like, of course, there are going to be challenges and you're going to be pushed away as a parent and your feelings are going to get hurt. But like that is never going to stop the love. And loving every different iteration and version your kids are. Yeah. And everything they bring to the table. Sidebar.

This is directly applicable to this Rebecca Kate relationship. My youngest is a sweet boy. We were at basketball practice the other day. And I just come from out of town. I can't remember where I was. But I got home in time to take him to basketball practice and was about to drive him home. But his mom had dropped him off. And I made it to practice.

So I don't know if she was going to take him or if I was going to take him. So I'm walking out of practice. They had a scrimmage at the end of practice that his team lost and was a little frustrated about. But it's practice. You know, you can win, you lose. And I was like, hey, man, you want to ride? And he shook his head. And I was like, I want to let you know.

I'm really proud of the way you play today. You had a team that was stacked. There were some older kids on it, but you didn't. You kept your head up. And he was like, okay. I was like, you want to grab something to eat? He's like, I'm good. I was like, you want to go with mom?

You want to go with me? He just like points at mom's car. And he just was very short, didn't say anything to me at all. So I asked Ryan afterwards. I said, right, was everything all right with the morning? And he goes, he said to her, he goes, I think I'm beginning puberty. And she goes, why? He's like, because dad was trying to be nice to me and I just didn't feel like being nice back.

I just wasn't in the mood. I did like, even if he said nice things, I just didn't feel like talking to him. So, like, later on the evening, like, he doesn't say good night to me, anything like that. And the next time, I wrote him a letter, I said, Dear Mari, I said, Daddy's have feelings, too. I said, if you heard them, it's very nice to acknowledge that and apologize. Daddy loves you. Talk to you later. Thanks for reading, Dad.

And he saw the letter, and he goes, sorry, Dad. And I was like, it's okay, man. But sometimes you have to let them know, too, in the most polite way. Like, you know what I'm saying? I'm not going to remove my love from you. But the things that you do have an effect on me. Yeah. Just so you know.

If I may comment on your beautiful son. He's laughing, which makes me... But he knows what I'm about to say. He knows... You know what I'm about to say. And it was a very funny moment. It was great. But it was also...

Rachel and I were sitting there going, that's one of the most aware things I've ever heard. We were at Sterling's 50th birthday, and the first two people on the roasting stage were his sons. Andrew said a few things. Amari stepped up and took the mic and said, I'm very happy to be here, happy birthday dad, and turned to the audience and said,

and for everybody else, if you don't know me, please don't try to talk to me. You missed that? I missed that. There you. He goes, if you don't know me, please don't try to talk to me.

And I was like, that is so aware. It is. And so self-sufficient to take care of himself that way. Yeah. In a room full of huge personalities, a lot of noise,

a lot of glad-handing, a lot of people who have parasycial relationships to you because they know your dad to just come out on the mic and say it to the room. From the top, Jack. I was like, that's a special soul. I couldn't have been more proud. It's a special soul. Because he was legit, like telling the truth.

And he was like, listen, there are things that both kids have witnessed. And I think Andrew even has more of a sense of this because I think Andrew can remember life before this is. Oh, oh, oh, okay, got it. Life before this is us and then life after. Because I put OJ and this is us right in the same sort of category. And I think, like, Andrew will tell you in a heartbeat, I don't want to be famous. Not anything that I'm remotely interested in at all whatsoever. Because I think he relates it to intrusiveness.

And so what Amari is saying in this moment is like, listen, you may know my dad. Yeah. But you don't know me. But you don't know. Yeah. I saw an issue, because I said, I said hello to him before we, before we, before, you before everything started. And he had a moment of like,

and then he recognized me. And it was like, oh, hey. And I was just like, you could see it. Yes. Yeah, it's like a very protective measure. Yeah, it was good. Oh, God. That was a, incredibly powerful.

Incredibly powerful and wise. Yeah. But to even recognize I might be going through puberty. Sure. Because dad was being nice and I didn't want to be nice back. What are you saying to me? You little Buddha. How do you know these things?

Like, to have that awareness is wild. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good kid.

We'll be right back with more. That was us. You guys? I was in Austin recently and I had one of these trips where you end up doing way more than you planned. Sure. Like you've set a certain amount that you've planned and then you do way more than that. Yes, sir.

We thought that we, you know, We were going to spend one afternoon walking around, and somehow it turned into, like, live music. Oh, man. Two barbecue stops. Let's go. Because you can't go to one barbecue spot in Austin. You have to, you have to taste, test, and compare. And those are the best trips, truly the ones where you don't overplan every single minute.

Exactly. Sometimes the best memories happen in those moments that aren't scheduled. Sir, that's basically the Pearson family motto. Yeah, and somewhere during the trip, I realized that while I was off making all of these memories, my place back home. No! It was just sitting there empty! Which is probably true for a lot of people whenever they travel.

Yeah, it made me think about listing my space on Airbnb. The only thing that would normally hold me back is wondering who's managing everything while I'm away? Sir, that's where Airbnb's co-host network comes in. You're going to hire a vetted local co-host with hosting experience to help manage the details. Well, there you go. I feel like I would want a lot of help with just the communications, you know, with guests making sure that they're... Exactly. And you know what?

A co-host can help manage those reservations. They can communicate with guests and provide on-site support. So instead of worrying about what's happening back home, you can focus on being present wherever you are. If you've thought about listing your space on Airbnb, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. This spring, Denham gets... It's a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer.

Easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool. With a fit that creates natural movement and a wide leg that feels modern, not overwhelming. Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. Madison finds a dress. It's hard, because Kate. and Kate and Matt... Madison finds a dress.

Kate invites her mom to come to school. So she can... There's a part about the Madison thing. I just wanted to say, like, her bio. Her mom left her family when she was eight years old. And she was raised by her dad. Raised by his dad who was almost kind of like

being raised by nobody, et cetera. So it was the first time that she felt like she was a part of a family. Yeah. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this family. Which I think, like watching it, I'm just like, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. Like how this is all about to play itself out. You know what I'm saying? Okay.

Yeah. Kate invites her mom to come to the school where she works to see her class, sing a Joni Mitchell song. Rebecca is elated at the invitation. So proud of Kate's. It's a very, very sweet moment. And, you know. That was Johnny Mitchell?

You don't know what you got to this guy? Mm-hmm. Okay. I know the sample. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know the sample. Kate essentially says you believed in me when I had given up on myself. Yeah.

And her mom says, you know, real joy has never gone forever. You just need time to find it again. Like essentially, that's the message. And just like, yeah, when she gives her hug and calls her my bug, like all of it is just like, again, it's like we know where this is going. And this woman knows where it's going. And it's like, yeah, you see in these last. these two episodes and right before like the finale of this season of like just setting up this

woman who is very who's who's cognizant of where this road is leading and how intentional she wants to be with the people that she loves while she has her faculties while she has the ability to communicate what she wants to impart on them and it's like it just like it's it's it's happening in such an organic fashion because right like there's There's these big moments. Like this is, she's shopping for a wedding dress. She's about to marry her son. Like Kate has like finally found herself.

She has this like footing in a world that like it all makes sense now, right? Like she wanted to be a mom. She wanted to find love. And it's like she's checked those boxes. But like finding her purpose in a world that's always sort of felt murky to her at this stage in her life or those other things or somewhat settled as well, feels really good. And as a mom, I imagine the pride you must feel, the joy you must feel at your child being exactly where they were meant to be.

Yeah. So, yeah, it's really beautiful. If I have, just to dovetail it with like the past. Yes. Because I think they're connected to each other. Yeah, yeah. She's about to go and interview for a job at the same office where you're working. And there's this idea like, you know, we could be working together and we could take our

lunch breaks together. Yeah. be really, really cool, you know, because, and she, you can still tell that Kate's in this sort of grieving process and, and Rebecca's saying, you know, we can't grieve forever, sort of, we move forward. Kate winds up going to get like some coffee at a diner. Yeah. Right. And when I want to like, what's she doing at the diner? Mom comes home as like, my girl said you never actually came to the thing to, for the interview. And she's like, well, I wound up getting the job at the diner. And she's like, okay. She brought some food back, had like fries and everything. And man,

the show deals with this really, really well. Definitely, yes. Really, really well because it's like she's eating and is sort of like coping with something. And you see Rebecca sort of be like, do I say something or do I just stay here? Yeah. Like, you know, like, I'm curious for you. Yeah, I was like, is this a good idea? Yeah. Right. You're an alcoholic and you're getting a job at a bar? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we see the flashback of her being at the bar and having a memory of being in the booth with her dad. And eating fries and... You know what I'm saying? At the diner.

Yeah, at the diner. Yeah. At the diner. Yeah. And it's all sort of intertwined. Yeah. Because then we find out in the present that she worked there for nine years. Mm-hmm.

Now, we'd seen her at the diner in a flashback. In the past, you know what I'm saying? But, like, we didn't know. It's not. Yeah. It's a good moment. It's a good moment. Let's see.

Should we go to... We can do Kev? Yeah, let's do Kev, and then we'll go to Kate and Toby. Kev goes to the movie. This was great because this was a real bait and switch. I really believed it. Me too. And I was like, oh, wow.

So he watches this movie with Foster, with the director, like on the other end of the aisle. and the movie ends and Kevin's like I don't and the director's like I know it's a masterpiece it's like my favorite thing I've ever done

and you really thank you Kevin yeah for the performance of a lifetime and we're led to believe as an audience like holy shit he did it he did it they both did it

they made this incredible thing together in spite of Kevin leaving and all of the drama that sort of surrounded it smash cut to him talking to his agent what was he said no yeah he was like this thing sucks

It's like the worst thing I've ever seen. Yeah. And you're like, oh, wow. And the agent is like, yep, that's what everyone's saying. It's the worst. Everyone's already talking about it. Yeah, and he's like, we got to get you in here for a meeting. We got to figure out your next project so the stink doesn't follow you.

Before word spreads. Nikki comes with him. Nikki was doing shopping. He has like a godfather ones in everything. It's always fun to see the Paramount lot. Yeah. Like when we shoot like on the actual lot where we shot the show, I was like, okay, that's good. They go in there.

They start pitching things, something. sounds a little bit too manny. She's like, I've already done that. I can't do this anymore. Pitch after pitch sounds bad. And he's like, hey, guys, has the industry heard about the movie? And he's like, it's not just the movie, dude, but you got a little bit of a reputation. And this is what I was saying to you guys before about, like, his leaving stuff.

Yeah. And I hadn't even really put it all together. I had neither. So, like, oh, he's left a lot. Three things. What he does. Between the high profile thing. The Manny, the Broadway show.

and now De Niro or whatnot. I was like, oh, this is something. And that would be, that's a legitimate stink to have on you. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? So now he's- Even though they all were for.

Real reasons. But nobody cares. Yeah. No one cares. No one cares about the nuance. Who cares about nuance? Yeah. They're real reasons.

But what I love is that like Nikki is just thumbing through scripts. And that seems cool. And winds up walking out of there with like, I got a lot of reading to do. He's just, he's just through. Cute, Nikki. Yeah. Let's see.

Okay, Kev. Oh, he sees Zoe as he's leaving. He sees Zoe. He sees Zoe. He's like walking out and sees her like on a Zoom. Brilliant writing. Yeah. Getting somebody on camera.

Yeah. But not in the same room for no COVID precautions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it was great. It felt very real. It was like, oh, why are you having a meeting?

So he like sits down to have a conversation with her. He tells her about Madison and the twins and how happy he is. And she sort of gives them this backhanded compliment, right? It did not seem nice. No. No. No, it was not. And she knew it.

And she knew it. No, no. And then she kind of copped to it. It was sort of like, no, I meant it as a compliment. You were like, did you? Yeah. She basically is just like, wow, you have a way of just kind of, how did she put it? You have a positive way of seeing the world.

Yeah. And like, kind of like, like, like, bending to someone else's will or getting, she was like, if I said that I wanted sushi and, or I wanted pizza and you wanted sushi or something and we would end up having sushi, right? Yeah. Like somehow. Completely commit to whatever's in front of you.

Yeah, exactly. It's what makes you such a good act. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, thank you. And she's like, no, I meant it as a compliment. But you could see the wheels in his head turning because he's like, oh, do I like kind of convince myself about something? Do I, do I, like,

do, not do I settle, but do I just, like, basically, I'm sorry, I think that was the wrong analogy. If she said she wanted pizza and he wanted sushi or vice versa, he would decide like, oh, actually, I do want pizza because she wants pizza or whatever. And it's like, no, but is that what you really want? Yeah. I think that's stuck in his brain because, you know.

She even began the conversation, was just saying, like, Yeah, I saw you engaged in anything. I was like, whatever, what happened? Did you knock her up? And he's like, yeah. And she's like, oh, okay. All right. That's how you do.

Like, you convince yourself like, whatever's in front of you is the thing that you want. I think it's a great quality. I don't think so. I don't think you think that's a great quality. I don't think so, shady sister. Yeah. Shading my brother.

So then Madison, he gets home to Madison, tells her the movie sucks. He's trying to figure out stuff. She tells him that she's kind of relieved her dad isn't coming. Yeah. And, and I'm trying to think if there's anything else that happens other than he was like, I want to watch Bridgetton.

Like, I'm ready to watch Bridgetton. She's like, oh, I really wanted to watch the Great British Baking Show. But, you know, and then we see a jump cut to them. She's asleep and they're watching the Great British Baking show. Yeah. But there's also this moment of like when he decides to do like, oh, Great British Baking off. Yeah, that sounds great.

And then after. Right after he does it, because there's almost like an automatic thing, he goes like, that's what she said. Yeah. Yeah. And you also see it happening as like as he realizes Madison's asleep on him. He's just sort of like, I acquiesced again. And like, it's such a fine line.

Yeah. Right? Because what is what is the line between codependence and being agreeable? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, or what's so bad about wanting the person you love to get what they want? I'll tell you what's interesting about it because he, in that's, in my mind, you guys tell me how you interpreted it. He got what he wanted to because his family, he had a baby in one arm and he had Madison and the other. Yeah.

And so when we go to the next episode and we start talking about the empty nest. Yeah. Yeah. That's not something that he thought. He's thinking about the totality of like, oh, I get this child here. I get this sweet woman right here. Yeah. And she's resting and I'm okay.

Yeah. But like if that part goes, you know what I'm saying? Sure. Sure. Sure. It's just such a fine line between compromise and codependence. Yeah. Yeah.

True. Toby and Kate. Toby and Kate. Or it's really it's Toby. Yeah. Yeah. But it's Toby and Kate. We can boil down the Toby plot line.

You know, there's a plumbing leak. Yes. He's going to fix it. Yes. Turns out he can't. So he has to reach out to his father, which is clearly not the person he wants to reach out to. Yeah. Father shows up.

He's trying to fix this leak. Very metaphoric in his life, this leak. My boat is sinking. Yeah. And dad delivers the bit of wisdom that, But, you know, it's not the leak. Dan Loria. Love Dan Loria.

It's the pressure. He says... That'll get you. He says... He says... Wait, wait, man. Toby and Dad, they fix it dead. Asked Toby's okay.

He's not, but says he is. Dad tells story about losing his job when he was eight. Not everybody talks about their feelings. Wish I had done that more. And then they go, you keep an eye on this. People only look for leaks where the water's coming out. Right. But it's the pressure that gets you.

But it's the pressure that it'll get you. Dan is so great. He's like a, because he grew up with all of those old classic black and white movie actors, but he delivers a line, you know, like Peter Falk. Yeah. You know, very intentional.

So good. It's so good. But it's like when Kate comes home and she's really proud of Toby for fixing the leak, it's like, oh, this is some foreshadowing of pressure. Yeah. Of pressure, pressure, pressure. This guy, my burst. Well, there was, there's this interesting thing at the top of the episode where, like,

Kate's like, are you sure you going to do? She's like, yeah, I got it. No problem. And she's like, well, you know, you're not a plumber. Yeah, we should just call a plumber. I don't really have the money to be spending things like I can figure it out. It's all good. Very short.

He goes on to the YouTube. It's like, how to fix a leak. Fixing leaks for dummies. And the leak progressively gets worse. You know what I'm saying? He's sitting there with Tim. What's Tim's name in the show? What's his name?

Gregory. Gregory. Right? Gregory's like, did you call the plumber? He's like, no. He's like, I could call my father-in-law, but, you know, that sends up the Pearson bat signal. And it's like the last thing I need is a bunch of people asking me what's going on. And I just want to fix this damn thing and have it be done.

Yeah. You know? And it's interesting because even his dad is able to say to him, I wish I had had. It's funny how your family likes to talk about the feeling. and everything. Like, I wish I had done that more often because I see value in it after the fact. Sure. Whereas Toby is in it right now, and he's like, that's not anything that I really am interested in doing right now. I just want to make it through this part.

And the way we make it through, we all have these different ideas of what it means to make it through. And oftentimes, a lot of men feel like you do it by yourself. Yeah, well, you patch that leak. You know what I'm saying? You just, you put something on it and you keep. it moving or whatnot, but you see he's reaching a breaking point. Yeah. You know.

And he definitely does for the next episode. Yeah, I think that's it for this episode. It's a good episode. Oh, that's right. I think we have a voice memo from a dear friend. Our dear friend, her name is Susan Coletchi Watson. She plays Beth Pearson on this as us. Hey, y'all, what you're doing, what you're wearing.

Mandy, you look cute. I see you sterling, smiling, laughing. Sully, miss you man. Okay, so we're watching The music and the mirror And I'm going to just say This time around watching it I really

Felt Justin's storyline And maybe I did the first time watching it I don't know But this whole idea when he gets on the Zoom with Zoe And he starts talking about Well, she starts telling him that He has this amazing way Of sort of

Loving whatever the person he's with loves, like sort of giving up what he really wants and getting satisfied with whatever his loved one wants. And what really stuck out to me was like, wow, it's so interesting how if nobody points that out to you, you could go through your life doing that and not realizing it and thinking that that's love and it's okay because you're very compromising and it's full. fine, but you never really get what you really want.

You never really explore what your passions are or allow somebody else to. So that was really interesting to me this time around. And of course, in rewatching Beth's story, the thing that sticks out to me the most, that last scene, honey, when they chose that Jodicey, I, You know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, we're, and I were when they chose that song. We're like, what's better than this. And I don't know if it was Kaye oiego, or, you know, or, you know, I feel like Kaye had something to do with that song. But it was, it's such a banger and it's beautiful and emotional and it's so of a certain time, but a classic. And the simplicity of him walking into a room and just playing the music and just being there for her was just so lovely and beautiful. And who doesn't want that?

Who doesn't want somebody who can just read the room and say, hey, I'm just here for you. I ain't got nothing else for you, but my presence and a shoulder to cry on. So that was really, really beautiful. Yeah. Oh, reflections from Sue. Love you, Sue. God, get the sister back in here. We need to get that one back in here.

As much as we possibly can. I do adore her. Same. All right. Guys, that was a great. Thanks, Sue, for that message. And this was a great episode. Yeah.

It is like, because I know the next, so we have this next episode coming up that we'll do in a little bit. And then there's the finale of the season. And I haven't, I remember what happens, but not everything. Yeah. So I know it's going to be interesting for me to watch. Yeah, I don't remember everything either. I have no recollection as to what. Well, we went to a place.

We went to this place. This, like, garden, right? Where my, you know, my buddy, the judge. Yeah. He actually got married there. Oh, wow, what a beautiful place to get married. He actually got married. Where was that?

On our side of town. Yeah. Oh, no, it was in Pasadena. Pasadena. No, is it? It might have been because Gus came. I have a picture of you holding baby Gus there. I think it's in Pasadena.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's in Pasadena. He still sees your face on sometimes. First of all, he only thinks that I do a podcast. Gus. Yeah. And the podcast came on. The other day, like one podcast finished in ours came up.

And he goes, is that Sterling? Yeah, he's like, he met me when I was a baby. I'm like, he did. He did. Gus is obsessed with like, he knows you, obviously. But he's just like, I want to come to work with you one day. And I want to see Sterling now. I'm like, okay.

I love this. I mean, yeah. Anytime. We'll get him in here. Anytime. You can help us read ads. Yeah. Sure.

All right. That was that episode. Great times. Good stuff coming. Yeah. If you want to see this a day early, yeah. Video format.

Check us out on who. Check us out on Hulu. On Mondays. If not, everything is as it has been. Yeah, Tuesdays. You can listen to us. Yeah. Like those, support those sponsors.

Yes. Like, subscribe. Tell friends. Tell a friend. Send him a clip. You know? You know what's crazy is we were just talking about this. Justin was just promoting his show tracker.

Yeah. And he was on Fallon. And Fallon brought up, This is Us. And I read the, you know me. I'm not really on. online these much these days anymore, but I was reading some of the comments, and it's just like, it's so sweet how many people love this show. Because he was just talking about how people still come up to him on the street and want to talk about the show. And it just made me realize,

I'm like, they should know we're doing this podcast. Yeah, a lot of people don't. Go back and rewatch the show and then tell people to watch, listen, our podcast. We will be your loving companions on your journey back through this show. So when we come back, I think we're going to do a little fan segment. Very special fan segment. A very special fan segment for those who are fans of love on the spectrum. Have you guys seen? Every episode. Every episode. I haven't watched this new season yet. Every minute of every episode. You have not watched it. It's great. It's great. It is the best television of all time. It is, it makes you feel so good. Okay. Okay. But so Abby, who is the star of the first couple seasons of Love on the Spectrum.

She and her mom are going to join us because they are fans of the show. They watch the show together. Right on. And they have a special connection to it, so I'm excited to chat with them. Yeah. Let's do it. Today is the day. We are so very excited to welcome Abby Romeo and her mom, Christine,

from Love on the Spectrum. Ever heard of it? Ever seen it, Sully? I've seen every minute of every episode. Yeah, we love it. Abby recently shared how much she loves This Is Us and how the show helped the two of them, her and her mom, understand each other, which we absolutely loved hearing. We're so happy there, Keir to talk, storytelling, family, music, and more.

So let's bring them on, gang. Hello. Hello. Abby and Christine. You see who we're talking to? Can we have a little intro with those hosts right there? Yes. Yes, we can absolutely do a little bit of an introduction.

So I am Mandy Moore, and I play Rebecca Pearson. Mangy Moore. Yes. Hi, Abby. Hi, Mandy. How are you? And I heard her the voice of Rapunzel and Tangled. Yes. It is me. It is me. Yes. My name is Chris Sullivan. I played Toby on This Is Us.

Yes. Wow. Chrissy met his husband. Yeah, Chris is husband. Yes. And I am Sterling K. Brown. I play Randall. Sterling K. Brown. Hello. Hello.

We are so honored to have both of you on the pod. A friend of mine sent me a clip where you shared in a recent interview how much you love our show, which is so kind. Because we love your show. We love your show. We love both of you so much. Every minute of every episode. Every minute of every episode. So we were so surprised and hard.

heartened here that you knew about our show and you liked our show and that actually what you said in this interview was that the show helped the two of you understand each other better because of the use of the flashbacks and the way it's sort of revealed a full picture of someone's experience. So, Abby, if I could ask you, do you remember when you first connected with the show and how it made you feel? It made me feel inspired because, I was listening from the other room, so I decided to watch it with my mom so I could hear what they were talking about. And when it goes back, that's exactly how my mind works. Wow. In flashbacks with memories. Wow. So I'd like to start so you guys understand that

Abby doesn't really watch network television, doesn't really watch it unless it's Hannah Montana or one of those types of shows. But an actual drama is a really hard format for looking and listening at the same time. Sure. Many people's autism can either do one or the other. So that's why we don't have eye contact because they're using their ears or they're listening. But Abby started by listening to the show in the other room when I was binge watching, y'all, once you hit streaming, watched you every single night for a series of months.

And then you jumped in, Abby. Do you remember you jumped in? I do. Do you remember what I felt like? It felt like I was inspired by it because I saw Flashbox when they were babies to children of teenagers. Yeah. That's exactly how my mind works.

Wow. And so we were sitting there and she asked to join us and join me and just said, can I sit and watch with you? And I was kind of like, yes, yes, because this hadn't happened before. And she was watching one of those beautiful flashbacks where the cast is in the older years going back to childhood. And remember what you turned to me and you said? That's how my mind works.

Oh, wow. We've talked about that. We've talked about that a lot on the podcast. here about that I didn't realize, Abby, that that's how my mind works as well until I saw the show. Like, the show feels like I'm revisiting my own life through memory or through flashback. And so when I saw the clip of you speaking about it, it actually clarified a lot for me, too. It was incredible. You said, you've described yourself, Abby, as a gestalt thinker.

I am a gestalt learner, so I say things through lived experiences. Like whenever I'm feeling uncomfortable, like whenever I, as a matter of fact, when I was four years old, I went to a program called the clubhouse, which I hated and I felt just like a fish out of water there. So the next time I felt nervous, scared, sad, or shocked, I would go, that's the clubhouse instead of using the feeling words. So my mom drew a visual dictionary of that place, the memory, and the feeling words next to it. Interesting. And so the flashback to your time there helped you access those feelings. Yes. Wow. That's so interesting. That's incredible. So when she saw the format of the flashbacks, she was able to really tell me as a mother, when you're always trying to figure out what's going on on the inside,

she said, this is how my mind works. It was one of the biggest autism parenting moments I've had. And I just wanted people that dealing with this thing called the Gestalt language, processor, which is a part of some with autism that's a little bit underserved and underdiscovered. It really gave me pause to push and talk about this more because the show so beautifully shows life the way many of us think, but for a person with autism, was to really access real feelings. Oh, man, just make a note that Abby's hair looks really good right now. My hair?

Yes. That's fantastic hair. Oh, and that Beret? And the Brett is killer. Thank you. Thank you for that. Now I have my question. And the question is,

the Pearson family is constantly learning how to better understand and communicate with one another. Has being open about your autism helped the people around you understand you more? Yes, because back in the day, no one really understood autism. And that made me frustrated and sad and angry and uncomfortable. Yeah. Because I wanted to be fitted and be part of the typical world. Yeah. So speaking about it allows people to be more accepting instead of keeping it to yourself?

Yes. Gotcha. And how does it feel now you're doing so many? I'm doing so much. That's why as a kid I said, I don't want to be a child. I want to be an adult because even though I already am, but those are just flashbacks. Like what happens in your show? Yeah.

It's because I knew that people would understand autism even more. Yeah. Because I knew life would be easier and my brain would do it. I was telling it to do, and it happened. How did you know that, though? Yeah. Mind reader. And that's why I associate adults as good and children as bad.

That's the whole other part of your thinking, though. I'm just telling you because I'm giving you examples about lived experiences. You had an understanding that as people got older, they grew in empathy and understanding and kids just don't have the same level of understanding. There's some people with autism who don't have a sense. speech delay. For me, I've had 22 years of speech therapy to be able to talk just like this. Yeah. And she always knew, Sterling, she always knew that somehow as she got older, she always gravitated towards adults because adults are more patient, they're less, you know what I mean?

Yeah, of course. Sure. Level of social acumen. And so, but as a child, she would always say, I can't wait to be an adult because she knew her brain would be able to work the way she wanted. it to. I don't know how she had this understanding, but that is in fact exactly what has happened. May I ask you guys, are you guys familiar with a podcast called the telepathy tapes by any chance? Yes, indeed. I am. Is there any resonance for you, Christine, between your life and those, that podcast? Yes, I feel that on all different levels, there are things going on universally and

cosmically and things that I cannot understand in my little human mind that are bigger than what I know. And I believe all of it. Oh, of course. And I'm fascinated by all of it. And I like to listen to everyone's story. We're all a little different, but there's definitely a connection. Definitely a connection. I think that there's something about your show that you were on, Abby, and our show, that

that connected so many people coming from all different different walks of life but there's something true at the center of both of our shows that allows people access to learning about themselves you know what I mean and and a big a big part of our show the expression of our show is music you know music is such a big part of the emotional expression on this is And we know singing and songwriting are also really important to you, Abby. We saw you're working on recording new music.

Can you tell us about the new music? I wrote a song called Right Here Right Now. It's about learning how to stay in the moment because it's about learning how to push old memories away. Because I have a very strong episodic memory. Like when I see someone doing a certain thing, it brings me back to a memory. Like whenever I see someone falling asleep, it reminds me of a girl who fell asleep on the school bus. and another girl who fell asleep in class. Yeah.

How does how do you feel? Sad. So I would copy them to fit in, even though it made them uncomfortable. I wasn't mad at them. I was mad at my brain, not them. Interesting. Don't copy me because it made them uncomfortable.

Yeah. I'm just so interested in how, I know that music means a great deal to you. How, where do you find your inspiration for songwriting? Autism makes me want to write music because I like expressing myself. Yeah. I know I have this feeling.

When I am singing, the song, like you just mentioned, when I am singing, I am right here, right now, present in the moment. And I'm wondering if when you sing, if that gives you that same type of feeling. It's awesome. What do you say? When you're singing, it feels like what? My autism is gone and then it comes back. My favorite song to sing is part of your world from Little Mermaid, because that represents wanting to fit in. Right.

I love that song too. I identified with Ariel as a kid. The very first time she started writing music was because they were therapies that we used to have Abby manage her autism to do different things, be in the moment, that kind of a thing. And so they were therapeutic in nature.

So that's why she would write stuff down and we put stuff to music so she could remember. And then it turned into you wanting to advocate for others with autism. So you wrote a song, Her first song was called The Girl Inside. Girl Inside is about how the autism makes me feel like there's someone living inside me. She's the one with autism, and I'm the typical one.

Oh, wow. Fascinating. And so that's all about that autism personified so that Abby can, you know, manage it. But at the end of the song, what's the classic line of that? We must love each other to be free, which means she has to accept your autism. That's why I connect to Hannah Montana, because she lived a double life too in the show. She did. Yeah. That's so, and we've actually talked about.

about this on our podcast here, which is, it's incredible for you to be able to express that because I think a lot of people can relate to that feeling to the type of person that is constantly criticize. I have an inner critic. You know, I have someone who lives in my head who's who's maybe holding me back sometimes or making me feel shy or making me feel bad about myself or giving me confidence. And it's interesting to be able to vocalize that. and especially to put it into song. That's incredible. And the new song that's going to be released in the next two weeks right here right now

is literally a therapy. We will say that when Abby can't control her brain going into a past memory. We try to help her by saying, right here right now, what do you see? And we talk about what we see like out the car window, right? What are some of the lyrics for that song? Here right now by the joy like inside out. The past doesn't serve me anymore.

Present and future means so much more. And yes, I've got a brain with a mind of its own. So I'll take a deep breath and look out the window. See all there is to see. Put away the memory. Oh, right. Jay, I didn't know we were going to get a performance. That's amazing.

I can't wait to download the song. I love your voice, Abby. Thank you. I love yours too. Thank you. That means so much. I just have to say, you guys. And the other thing I just, I have to shout out to is the casting of your show was so brilliant

that for Abby, who is such a visual person, I feel. I feel like the younger selves were so easy to identify that kept Abby engaged in the story because we really felt like we were experiencing them. And so that the through lines and the flashbacks were very, very valid and very, very real for her with her differences. That's so great to hear. Thank you. No, shout out to Josh, our casting director and all the people. I feel the same way.

When I watch the show, I'm not like looking at me. I'm looking at Randall in the latest version. And then I see Randall as he was younger before. Like, it's kind of amazing. It really is. And the whole arc of the show from, I mean, we were all rocked when the show ended. I mean, like, we just wanted to stay with you, I think. It was jolting.

Like, it was a loss because we felt so part of it. And I think it captured something that so many shows just don't, which is, were vested. And those memories and watching her understand it, the same way that I did, was the biggest gifts I've had as a mother. Wow. That's the ultimate compliment. My goodness. Right on, sister. We are so grateful for your time.

Yeah. Oh, thank you so much, Mandy. We're so grateful to connect with you guys. We love, like, we've loved getting to know you on your show. and this was just, wow, I'm all, I'm speechless. You're awesome. We're a little starstruck, you guys. You're awesome.

You, of course. Well, thank you for your time, ladies. Yes, just thank you guys for having us on. It means so much because you all have a special place in our hearts, not just his performance, but the entire arc of the show. Thank you. And can you tell folks how they can listen to your new music, and how maybe they can follow you on social media and whatnot?

Do you know your handles? You remember them? Hatsbyabby.com. Yes. That's your website. Tats by Abby on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook. What's made by Abby? That's where you make your hats.

That's where you make them. She makes hats and sells them, so that's why we have that name. I didn't know this. As a bald man, I'm frequently in need of a hat. So I didn't know you made hats. And then I talk about the parental end, the educational stuff. I talk about things like this, connection on Christine, Abby's mom on Instagram and TikTok.

Okay. And then Abby's music is on Spotify and Amazon. Great. Beautiful. Can't wait. Can't wait for the new music. It's going to be epic. Yeah, it's going to be epic.

That is true. And who won the Emmy Award? Whose Emmy is that? What's Emmy is that? Oh, that's ours. We have several Emmys from Unstructured Reality. I think the show is once. seven Emmys.

Yeah. That's more than Sterling K. Brown. That is more. Sorry, Sterling. Sorry. I have to now take a second seat to Abby. It's all good. Thank you, ladies.

So much for joining. Thank you. So much. You are awesome. Lovely to finally meet you. Hopefully our paths cross one of these days in person. Yeah, in person. You'd like to meet everybody?

Yeah, we would love that. Me too. Awesome. Thank you for having us. Thank you, guys. Have a good day. Have a great day. Bye.

Oh my gosh. Okay. Incredible. You guys, I cannot wait for you to watch the show. Okay. Because she is so special. She's so, but everyone is so special at my show. I mean, she's a standout, and she's on for several seasons, and you'll see why.

Yeah. But she speaks the truth, like we were talking about earlier. With so much purity. Her line about the only way to be free is through love. Yeah. It's just like, yes, and that's it. End of story. There's something very pure and like, you know, uncomplicated by like she's like, that line about sort of like adults versus children is really powerful.

You know what I'm saying? And the understanding of like soon people will be able to understand and relate to me in a way that they can't right now. Right. Like, man, it just cuts through everything. Everything. Very moving. And since watching, like, listening to the telepathy tapes, it's like, there is a wisdom that I, that I, that I, I don't overlook. Like, I listen very, very closely because I was like, you're teaching me something.

Yes. You know? Yep. Yes. Abby's no joke. Yeah. And her mom is. And her mom is wonderful.

Unbelievable. I think that's what we were saying, like, all of the parents that on, on this particular show, it's like, you just watch in awe of, like, how they handle the situation. It's just like it's so it's just so beautiful. It is it's going to be your favorite show. I'm telling you. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. That was us? That was us. That was us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da da da da da da da da.

That was us. HitGum podcast.