That Was Us - Caitlin Thompson and Us | Madison Simmons

Episode Date: October 13, 2026

This week on That Was Us, Sterling and co-host Ryan Michelle Bathe are joined in studio by Caitlin Thompson, who played Madison on This Is Us. From Madison’s evolution from comedic relief to a fully realized character, to the realities of navigating Hollywood as a woman and a mother, Caitlin reflects on her years on the show, her transition from acting to writing, and the experiences that have shaped her both personally and creatively. In this episode, Caitlin chats about: * Her transition from acting to writing and how her feature script Ohio Girl became her calling card as a writer * Her writing process and why she needs to feel personally invested in the stories she tells * Madison’s evolution from comedic relief hiding behind a mask to a fully dimensional character who found her voice * The meaning behind the saying “every baby comes with a loaf of bread” and how it connected to Caitlin booking a series regular role on This Is Us * The challenges of filming Season 5 while navigating postpartum life, breastfeeding, and COVID protocols * How motherhood changed her perspective * The unrealistic expectations placed on women in Hollywood * The extra demands women face in auditions, from wardrobe expectations to the pressure to fit a certain image * Filming the overlapping dialogue scene between Kevin and Madison and why it became a defining moment for her as the character * Finding creative fulfillment and community as a mother, including writing and making time for herself * Using The Brick to limit social media and how stepping away from her phone has helped her stay focused And a friendly reminder, you can catch new episodes of That Was Us every Monday, a day early, exclusively on Hulu. Available on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts on Tuesdays like usual! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Go to https://kachava.com and use code THATWASUS for 15% off your first order. - Make your bed your favorite place to be this season with Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to https://Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was That Was Us. It’s the best way to support the show. - Thank you Tin Can for sponsoring! Go to https://tincan.com/THATWASUS for $10 off your first order. - Find pieces made for real life, and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to https://Wayfair.com to shop all things home. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a headgum podcast. Trade ice skating at Nathan Phillips Square for ice cubes in your umbrella drink. Let Porter Airlines fly you from Toronto Pearson nonstop to 10 top sun destinations in Mexico, the Caribbean and Costa Rica. Enjoy award-winning porter service Toronto has loved for 20 years and start your vacation as soon as you're on the plane. Book your sunny getaway today at Fly. Porter.com and actually enjoy a comedy. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of that was us. I am one of your hosts, Sterling K. Brown.

I'm doing this, unfortunately, and I apologize in advance because I know you're going to miss them because I miss them. Mandy Moore, Chris Sullivan are not here. They're busy. They have lives. They filled in for me, and now it is my turn to fill in for them. But I'm not doing it by myself. Got a special guest for you. This woman, she's not only beautiful.

She's not only intelligent. She's not only funny. She is warm. She is kind. She is the mother of my children. I bagged her. Give it up for Ryan Michelle Bathurst. You're so silly.

You can be like the sweetest and the silliest at the same time. It's a very charming. It's a gift, bird. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thank you for joining me. I appreciate this. Thank you for being here. Not letting your husband fly so. Thank you guys for having me. You guys are amazing for having me back. So thank you. And we're doing a little stand alone. We're not doing an episode right now. This is just an interview. We've interviewed her on the podcast before. But it was over Zoom. And Zoom's not quite the same thing as having someone live. It's not as warm. In the flesh. Right here, tangible, holdable. You love her. I love her. She played Madison. She is Madison, but she's not Madison.

She's Caitlin Thompson. How you doing, Kate? Hello. Thank you for joining us again. I thought you were describing me with the first intro until you said mother of my children. I could have done either one except. It could have been you as well. You're the mother of a wonderful child of who we know and love very, very much.

How you been? What's been going on? I'm great. I'm great. Or maybe not everything. Tell us everything. You know, I'll tell you what I'll tell you. This is what I want to talk about a little bit.

There's a lot of things that I want to talk about. But like before we even just sort of do. into the show and whatnot. Yeah. I know that you've made a very strong pivot creatively with regards to where you're putting your focus. You ascribe. Yeah.

You've been writing shit. I've been writing. And you've been making moves in this thing. Tell me how it feels. Like versus sort of like, I feel like oftentimes we as Thespians, because I still include you amongst us. Oftentimes it's like, please, sir, may I have some more? You're waiting for crumbs from the table of joy.

Do you feel like you have a bit more Asian? agency when you're the person that's putting pin to paper creating the sort of manuscript that other people want to do? Or do you feel like you're still waiting? Like, please, sir, may I have some more? You know, it's interesting because when the show ended, my son was when did the show end? 22. Oh, okay. So he was two. Yep. And it was, you know, kind of getting out of COVID. And I feel like the acting world changed so dramatically. Like it was all the self-tapes and you weren't in rooms anymore and things weren't filming in L.A. as much. And I kind of just had this moment. Like I just came off of this amazing show. I was like, how is it going to get better than this? It's like, it's going to be really hard.

And it filmed in L.A. And it filmed in L.A., which we all know is like the dream. Totally. And I also was, you know, I had a two-year-old breastfeeding, all the things. I was like, do I have a, like, I always loved writing? And I was like, do I even have this ability anymore? Like, is this something I can still do? How do I focus?

Like, you know, when I was writing before, it's like I could do 10-hour days and be so locked in. Yeah. And so I kind of had a challenge to myself of writing a feature. And I did that and sent it out and, you know, kind of became like my calling card as a writer and kind of launched this career. And, you know, I'm developing things and, you know, it's building. It's, you know, you're not going to make a movie day one. But it's really exciting.

And I like the freedom of it. I like the control. I like that I'm in L.A. and I can kind of, you know, make this work for my lifestyle right now. And I feel like doors are opening in that direction. And I've always loved writing. I was kind of always doing it as I was acting. It was kind of like my thing that, you know, sometimes I would have an audition.

I'd be in the middle of a scene writing. And I was like, oh, I don't really want to leave. Like, what's that feeling? Like, what does that mean? Yeah. And so, yeah, so I'm really enjoying it. I'm not saying I'm done acting. But I think, like, you know, right now it makes sense for me.

And I'm loving it. So I'm going with it. Are you a person who once an idea comes, it flows fairly easily? Or does it feel laborious? Is it a combination of the two? Like, how does the process normally work for you? Do you just give yourself a time and I'm going to write this time, whatever comes out comes out? Or you wait for inspiration?

What's it go? I think you need like the launching point. Like I kind of always know where it starts and where it ends and sometimes it's like the middle I'm figuring it out. But I've realized now as I'm developing my career as a writer, like I have a writer, like I have, have to be very personally invested in it. Like something about it needs to resonate with me in some way of something I'm feeling and want to explore, you know, a question I have. Like it has to, you know, you get, as you now open the writing door, you get pitched, you know, what about this book? What about this? And I'm just like, I'll read it. I'll be like, it's cool. I just like, I don't even know

where to begin with it because it's not feeling personal to me. Gotcha. So right now I'm really just enjoying, you know, doing my own kind of thing and figuring out the stories that I want to tell. But yeah, I think I like to think about it in my head a lot. And, you know, my notes app on my phone will just be filled and I'll be driving in the shower and be like, oh, this could be this. Are you writing the voice note down? Are you writing the note down or are you voice memoing to yourself? How are you using the phone? I type it, but it's like, then I look back at it and it's like, none of it makes sense.

I'm typing so fast. I was like, what was I trying to say in this moment? Can you give us an example of something that you're working on that's really personal to you that inspired you to tell, to start the story or begin the story? Yeah. So currently I'm going back to do a second draft of this movie I wrote. It was called Ohio Girl. I'm from Ohio.

Okay. And it takes place in 1999. And I kind of had this feeling. My parents, they got divorced when I was 28. Wow. And as I was getting married, my parents were, like, going through a divorce, which was really surreal. But we had such an idyllic, my brother and I had such an idyllic childhood.

that I couldn't help but be like, where were the cracks that I wasn't seeing? Like, where were things, you know, was I missing something? Or was it really just this amazing childhood that I remember and, you know, my brother and I would talk about? Yeah. And so that kind of got me going of a story of, you know, this Ohio family, nuclear waspy family that doesn't talk about their problems. Yeah. And I'm framing it against Y2K where it's like they think the world might be ending. So they kind of blow up their lives.

Okay. And then it's kind of like, oh shit. the world didn't end and now we've like exposed ourselves in all these ways. So I don't, I don't know. It's just that was the initial question of like, where were the cracks? And then that kind of just started to build. Because you didn't see any cracks growing up. No, my parents never fought. I mean, famously never fought. Both parents of divorce, like my brother and I will joke like they'd tuck us into bed and be like, you never have to worry. You're never getting divorced. And you'd be like, okay. They would say that to you. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, honey. Who would you say it was more difficult for to get divorced while you were getting married? You or your parents? Do you think it was like they felt guilty doing this while you were getting married? Or do you think it was harder for you to step into your joy and then be like, well, if my joy was my childhood and now I'm doing this, like, where's the truth? Like, what was it? You do you think it was harder for? Or was it equally hard?

Yeah, I don't think it was like really framed. around like Kate's getting married and this is happening. It was kind of like a long couple year separation. I don't even know if it timed out exactly, but like I remember like the first time my parents were like in a room together was when I was in the bridal suite about to walk down the aisle. Wow. But again, I wrote a play that I did for the Hollywood Fringe Festival about a girl going to therapy and her therapist is going through a divorce and she's getting married. And so it just kind of manifested in another way that I was, for me, it's just very cathartic and I can explore those feelings, ask the questions I want to ask, and, you know,

figure it out. Yeah. Going very deeper than I thought I would be going right now. This is Ryan's question. It's not me. No, I'm saying, do you feel like that's where you're, the crux of you as an artist lies and being able to, like, work through stuff through your life? Totally.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think, and I think in my acting, too, like, I think I have to find what's real for me and every character before I, I'm not a very good liar. I'm not really good at phoning it in. Like, I think that's why I didn't love auditioning. So I was like, I don't have time to figure out what this person's, you know, unless they were very close to who I was. Or something that I've done that I could tap into. You're a self-labeled bad auditioner? I don't think I'm great in the fact that I get very nervous. I don't love it. I mean, the self-tape thing is like good because

you can do it a million times. I never send it my first tape. You prefer. Okay, sure. But I don't, but I also sometimes like the pressure of like, oh, I can't do this. Walking into the room and I have to get it this time. Yeah. Yeah. But I, yeah, I think. The bird hates a self-tape.

Oh, it's like a black hole. Yeah, with a with a with conun passion. Yeah. Yeah. It's truly like, and I always send in my first tape because I'm like, I will sit here for 175 years second guess. Like, I'll never send it in. And they're all the same. And they're all the same. And then you start, it's like, you know, we ever say a word like luncheon and you say it enough times. You're like it loses its meaning and you're like, won't chan, enchant. Am I speaking English anymore in this audition? I feel like there's something about being able to go in a room, do what you do. And then they give you notes. And you're like, oh, okay, you know what? I didn't know you guys were thinking that. Or my, or famously when you walk into a room and they're like, I know we said that this person was like, you know, X, Y, and Z. But it's actually A, B and C. And C. But it's actually A, B and C. And.

We just figured it out right now. Series. And all of that's in my head when I'm self-taping, because I'm like, I have no idea by the time I send this tape in if they've changed their mind. Especially, you know, in television, like, things are moving like this, and now we've got streamers, and it's like, are they watching all of it? Are they watching 10 seconds?

Are they watching 2 seconds? Right. You just never... It all depends on how the first seven seconds go. It goes. Yeah, the first seven seconds. And I'm like, you know what? Like, I feel like in my...

I feel, and this might be, and you can speak to this. you let me know. Sometimes I feel like I've done enough in my life that I deserve more than seven seconds to be who I am in this world. And there's such a part of me that's like, when do I, and then this is my question to you, when do I say I'm worth more than seven seconds? Yeah. As an actor, as a human, as a person, you know? And it's like, is it being a bad actor or a bad person in this business to say, no, I'm worth more than that. You know what I mean? Especially as a woman, like, speak to, like, because I know you know what it's like

to like have to stand and say this is what I'm worth. I think, yeah, I always think of like L.A. as like a bad mistress. Like, she's never going to treat you, right? Like, you give her so much. And then she's just like, meh, you know, that's not what we want today. And you're just like, but I just canceled my dinner plans for this audition. I just gotten hair and makeup. And I think with having my son, I was just like, no.

Like, I don't want to, when I might, 99% of the time, you don't hear anything. And it's just like, I don't want to, there's other ways I can use my talent and creativity that I was just, you know, it makes more sense for me. So I totally get that feeling of just like not feeling like it's worth, I love it. I love storytelling and I love acting. It's just that process for me is a little just not where I'm at right now. Right. I would say that you similar to your husband have a very developed sense of humor and that you like to try to find like the warmth within or through humor, right? Like, do you feel, because we have a household of two people that do the same thing and we have an interesting sort of dynamic.

Now that you are sort of more focused in the writing, do you feel supported? Do you feel competitive? Do you feel a little bit of both? like what's the vibe like at the crib? Yeah. Crib is good. I mean, listen, Dan is the most supportive partner. He's always been my champion through acting, through writing.

Like, you know, he's always there for me. I hope he would say the same about me. Sure. But no, it's not competitive. I mean, I think, you know, early on there was always this sense of like, oh, I'm living with King Midas and I'm like a little peasant. trying to find my way around. And so that was always just like...

He's actually very well said. I mean, King might have said. Literally, he'll like wake up in the morning with an idea and by lunch it sold. Right, right. And I'm just like, huh? What? How is this? No.

So, you know, you have to work through that feeling and keep the dream alive and be like, I know this. path and I'm very proud of him. And obviously, his success in our life has been wonderful and allowed many things in our life. But you have to kind of keep that artist's dream alive in that household. It's like you've got to believe that you can make moves to and you can have your own path and it's just as meaningful and it's going to be your own journey. I mean, it's a big thing for me on the show coming in, you know, being like, oh, am I just Dan's wife, you know, stepping on here? Like, that was a huge thing that I had to work through.

Yeah. Not to anyone, not that anyone ever made me feel that way. It was just like an internal, be like, I can see how this could be perceived in a way, you know, that I really have to prove myself or, you know, make my own mark here. Of course. I will say in all honesty, I always was like, and I say this with all kindness, but I was like, better her than me. What do you mean? Well, because, you know, I also was on the show, but I had such a relatively small part, right? Like, I recurred once, so, you know, and I-

You did four episodes. I did three. Check that for me, Sam, please. Either which way. Yeah, yeah. It was small enough that I was like, this is something I can live with, and I always, like, took my hat off to you. Like, it wasn't, like, a better heart. But it was literally, like, I-

You wouldn't have wanted to do more episodes. I knew that what you did. I felt the bigness of it in the other ways. The pressure, yeah. Like the bigness of how you had to have stepped into something, not just as an actor, but then all the other things. It gets one thing to be an actor and be nervous and be like, oh my God, I want to do a good job because, you know, this could leads,

you know how we do. But then you also have this added weight that I feel like I'm one of the only people that I can relate to. Totally. And I just always felt, no, I always felt like I was like you, I was thought of you was such a badass for being able to just like do that. and like not, I was like, I would collapse at the end of everything. Well, I was collapsing internally many a times.

Well, it didn't look at it. You looked like, I mean, and that's the thing, like you're, and because we can get to your character. Like, I always felt like Matt, even though Madison was, you know, came on as sort of neurotic, I always felt like there was like this coolness to the character that had to be there. Like, you had to be this sort of like, there were, you were cool. You were like a cool girl. You know? Yeah, I really felt like that. I really felt like that.

Wait, Kate was cool or Madison was cool? Well, both in a way, right? Because I'm going to say Madison was decidedly uncool until a certain point. No, even... Okay, I would go with that. No, no, no, no. We'll be right back with more. That was us. Amazon has everything you need to deliver joy to everyone on your list.

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like underpants. We've got you covered, Ricky, literally. The reason why I felt Madison was cool, especially at first when she came on, because you... How do I explain this? I might have to think the words through because I don't want to say the wrong words.

Take your time, right? But it was this sense, even again, even though your character was supposed to be neurotic and you put your foot in your mouth a bunch of times, like there was this part of me that was like, that's the girl that everyone thinks is cool at the party. Like she's created this like, no, I do.

Like if you're, listen, you're living in L.A., that's the character that, like, presents herself a certain way at me. I would say presents is a big aspect of her. And everyone else thinks she's one thing and then you see behind the curtain. And I felt like that was something that this, a duality that you played very well in the character.

Oh, that's very sweet. I mean, yeah. I definitely think there was like a mask to her. Very much, though. I mean, I was thinking as I was getting ready this morning, like, I was thinking of my first fitting with Hala. Yeah. And it was the pilot. And I came in. And I was like, you know, I really see Madison as like, kind of like an Olson twin. I'm the first scene, so she's in this weight loss group and she's the skinny girl.

I think the name of the character was like not really fat, rich girl, was how she didn't even have a name. And I remember going to Halla in the fitting and I'd be like, so I see her as like kind of like an Olson twin. Like she has this body dysmorphine. Maybe she's like hiding it, you know, with baggy clothes and the big pants, you know, just like covering her body because she's just so disconnected. than ashamed. And Halla was like, okay. And then she rolls out like a rack of Lulu Lemon. And she's like, this is the direction we're going. And it was like, tiny little workout outfits. And she's like, you're going to get a purse with the dog. And I was like, oh. Oh, I was like, oh, so that's, that Madison. Oh, okay. Did you have a dog in the vegan? Did you? I think like you couldn't

see it, but below my feet. You did. I totally remember. I mean, not a real dog. I think they gave me like a stuffed dog in case. It was back in the day. She's carrying her on a stuffed. Because that Lulu Lim and everybody had a dog in their purse kind of a situation. And the dogs only lived for like four years because they were so small. They weren't supposed to like actually be alive. Right. Totally. Which is a whole thing.

Like the smaller the dog. Anyway. Yeah. She was under. Yeah. I used to call them like rat dogs. Totally. Because they were like the size of big rats.

Yeah. Like a little. It is one of those things where I feel like Madison oftentimes probably one through four would function as sort of comedic relief. Uh-huh. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And then by the time we get to end of four, end of four slash five, right? End of four is when you guys, you and Kev hook up.

And you find out at the end of four, because you tell them as we're having our fight, that you're pregnant. Right? And then we go into like, all right, can these two kids make this thing majigga work? Like, I'm curious, like, what did Dan, like, did he give you any sort of heads up with regards to the arc? And then how did you feel as the character sort of became more fully dimensional? It was kind of scary because I did feel like for a long time she was just the comedic relief. Yeah. And I had tried to do my due diligence of making her real for me, but I never really had to go that deep.

Yeah. So I was kind of overwhelmed by the idea. I was like, you know, I have to show other sides of her now. Are people going to believe that this girl exists in these other worlds and these other scenes? Like, it was kind of overwhelming, but I just trusted the writing. I was excited to explore all that. But, you know, I think when season four came and I announced, I said to Kevin, you know, Madison says I'm pregnant, I was six months pregnant.

And I think by then they had to know if I was like committed to doing a series regular in season five. And I remember Dan coming to me and being like, so the writers like have this idea. I'm like, what would you think? And I was like, oh, this is like everything I always wanted, but I'm six months pregnant. And, you know, I think it was, was it March of, was season four in March of 2020 when COVID was just about. It was about to hit. We finished the season like just as. Was it four or five?

No, no. We had a longer break going into five, right, right, right, right, right. Which ended up being a blessing in disguise because Ben was born. And then I had this nice long break to kind of, you know, go through that newborn phase. You guys were pregnant at the same time. your character and you. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, it was further along than her. Yeah. I remember. I don't go on Twitter or whatever much, but I remember going one time and being someone wrote like, wow, she's so dedicated. She looks so swollen and bloated.

Oh, my sweet girl. Oh, my God. Because I'm pregnant. Who said that? I don't know, but I loved it. It made me laugh. Twitter user 72.90. You remember back in the day,

I don't know if you know, Like, all there was was like, IMDB, like, the comment section. Oh, my God. And you really had to. Do I? Do I remember me? No, we don't check those. We don't.

Nobody looks at that. But you had to really. I made a comment or two. You had to really go looking. Of course you do. Yeah, yeah. You had to really go looking for it. Yeah.

But now the comments are like. You have to do. You have to avoid them. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Which I do. Um, I just don't do anything anymore. You do not have social media. I do have it. You do? Well, Mandy actually got me into the blocking, the bricks. And I love, love, love it because we're all addicted. Yeah.

You can't not be addicted. And I like to have it when I want to have it. When I'm, you know, sitting in my son's chair at 8 p.m. He won't let me leave and I have to sit there until he falls asleep. It's like, I want to be on it. Sure. But I just couldn't. I needed something that would just prevent me from being on it.

So now I block it all day. Okay. And I don't miss it. I get so much more done. I'm a big advocate for, what's it called the brick? I think it's called the brick. It's the brick. Have you ever heard of the brick?

I have. I actually think I downloaded it or something. You got to get the little thing. Can I keep it in my closet? So I haven't used it yet. Yeah. Yeah, you have to put it somewhere where you can't easily reach it. Yeah.

And I like it. It kind of gives you control over or something that you felt like you didn't have control over. Can I segue segue. Do you do something real quick? How do you feel your relationship with social media? So I'm in a slightly different situation, right? Because as social media has grown, I find myself in this weird space where everyone is telling me, in order to get here or here or here or here, you need social media. Right? It's like getting dressed for just as one small example, right?

having to get dressed to go accompany you to your many, many, many, many, many awards. Deservately so, but many awards, right? So many awards. The Afghism and the Baftas and both. N.A.C.P. Point being that, like, I've had this, like, real... You got more British as you got to NWACP.

You start with Baftus. I wanted you to have the most, you know, the most... The most actory voice of actors. We know those are British people. Transatlantic. So one of the things that I bump up against a lot is having to get dressed for them, right? And there's a very big problem because people are like, no one wants to, like most of the silas I've used, they're like, no one wants to dress you because in this climate, it's really expensive to dress somebody and they want to dress influencers and you've got like comparatively two followers, right? So I'm always in this like push pull where I'm like, but I'm also.

I'm not an 18-year-old influencer. Right. Come with me, get me, baby. Like, I'm, you know what I mean? What did you say? Buba. Okay. But, like, you know what I mean?

Like, so it's, for me, it's really difficult because I'm constantly, I bump up against it so much. And then I'm like, and then I go through this. Okay, well, now I got to get and I got to do. And then I go on. And I'm like, well, what does everybody else? And how do I do? And it is addictive, right?

So it's like, it's literally like someone saying, you need to smoke just enough crap. Right. To get Louisville. I'm going to dress you. Right. But not enough that you're addicted. Yeah, don't become a full addict. How much is enough crack?

This is a terrible analogy. No, but it's true. It is an addiction. We all are addicts at this point, basically. And then people are telling me if you want to succeed as this thing in this world, you got to smoke a little crack. Oh, God. Don't listen to us. No, but I do think that there's something to be said because we live in a world now where people are like,

everyone is being told. You need a social media platform to sell your book. You need a social media platform if you want to, you know, sell, get on podcast. And if you get on podcast, that's how you sell the book. And if you sell the book, that's how you sell the supplements. Or whatever it is. You know, everyone is being told that they need some sort of social media presence to do any number of things. Yeah.

Right? And so I feel like I'm, it's not an envy kind of a situation, but I feel like it's wonderful that you found a pocket for you where you're like. I can exist in this thing and I can still be an artist and I can still do these things and I don't have to smoke at the crack. So do you feel like, maybe I would have like more success in my own? Are you saying, well, here's what, but wait, here's the thing. Are you saying what you're saying, do you think is most directly applicable to someone who wants to perform in front of the camera and you think there's a freedom for someone

who's made a pivot to try to be more behind the camera? No, I don't. Okay. I mean, I don't want to name name because I don't want to make it seem like the only reason why they're successful is because of their social media push. I don't. But there are many, many, many, many people who were able to parlay success as writers into huge careers as creators and writers and things like that because they had a social media savvy. We can agree, right? Yeah. Wait, wait. Let her co-sign on her own. I'm sorry. No, I do agree. Okay. There's

definitely value in it. Yeah. But you've chosen the different path. And I don't know if it's the right one. I probably could do more. Definitely when I was acting, my team was like, do more? I was like, what did they want to see? I was like, me and my garden? Like, what's my brand? I don't know. Chicken. Chicken's a horse. That's the half hour that you have to create. She's like her little head or garden. Ho-ho-ho. It was the original tradwife. But you weren't even married? No. He's got a big hat. The big hat. The bigger the hat the better. The bigger is a hot.

Yeah. I think there's value in it. And listen, I consume it when I'm on there for the hour. Yeah. And then I get to a point. Is that how the brick works? Is it an hour a day? You can do whatever you want.

I think there's more functions I don't use. But I just, I notice I get to a point where I'm like, can't stop scrolling. And it's like the cycles turning. And I just have to go and hit the button and lock it. Because I'm just like in this frenzy. Yeah. And I think we all, you know, I'm not immune to it. I think we all are.

I just was like, is this really what I, I was like having a hard time like completing tasks throughout the day. And then I'd get that little screen report that was like, you did blah, blah, blah hours. And you're like, huh? Right. Like, that's a lot of hours. But people also like it. Like, do you enjoy it when you do it?

There are parts of it that I do enjoy. Tell her what you, what is currently, like the go-to. So rise on the threads. The threads is number one, yeah? Would you say? What's the threads? Threads is like an offshoot of IG. Is that correct?

It's kind of like its own app? Yes, it's its own app. But you can see the threads on Instagram. You can see the Instagram on threads. It basically was their answer to Twitter as a lot of people started to go away from Twitter. Right. So Twitter was like, especially in the black community, it was like a big thing. And it was like all these like sort of inside jokes.

And so threads has become the new. And there's like a black threads now. So threads became the new place where people would congregate. And find. Bird, tell the people, because I think the people are interested. Tell them what is popping for Ryan Michelle Baffay. Well, it was private, but I will find. I will tell everybody.

I'm talking about my parents a divorce. You can talk about it. No, this is your thread heaven. This is way worse, girl. Have you heard of the Omegaverse? No. So I'm very much. I'm a very big fan of heated rivalry.

Like a lot of people. How many times have you watched it? And so there's a heated rivalry threads, which I like to be a part of. But what he's actually referring to is not social media. It's called, basically it's fanfic. I'm very much into the heated rivalry fanfic now. Oh, wow. Which it lives in a very different world than social media, I guess.

But now that we have social media, it's like I find the fanficks that I want to watch from threads. So like I go on thread. With there are videos? Or it's just like? No. just people who are like, yeah, there's like this one, like hypothetical things that could happen. No, so there's a whole website called Archive of Our Own. Okay. And that's where people go and they drop their fanfic. But on heated rivalry threads is where people talk about, here's my, they either

drop their own fanfic or they're like, here are my top five. And it's like, there's just, and actually, to be fair, I have developed a really wonderful community there. There's like, it's, I said, no, true. I love this. I literally not at it. I said, I said that he, I said that, I said that, archive of our own is like, I'm sure you did creative writing classes in college or whatever, right? And so it's like being... I was also a creative writer. Double major in English and African American studies almost went to school. With an emphasis on creative writing.

If you're using your degree. I'm using, I am and I am because... I'm not Sterling. I'm in support. It's like being in a creative writing class and the prompt just happens to be heated rivalry go. So you get all of these like different, you know, takes on the characters. And it's honestly some of the most beautiful. writing. And in truly there's this, there's this one fanfic deja vu that I'm like obsessed with.

And, you know, and I guess the part that I'm trying to get to is that for me, I've started to use social media as a way of sort of building that community, the community that I miss in terms of being an actor and like going into the room. And like, yeah, that was what we missed about it, right? Like meeting the casting director and like, oh, hey, you cast me in this and those conversations and seeing your friends and like going out. It's a much more siloed experience. It's a much more silent experience. And I'm sure you, you know, you met that, you had that community of people that, like, were your, I'm sure, you know,

those girls see all the time and we all want community and you actually get out of your house and you, you know. And so I think for me, what I've loved about social media in general, especially right now in this moment and specifically the writing of it all and being able to absorb all this incredible writing, which is inspiring, because, as you know, as a writer, reading good writing kind of gets you going. Wait, is this like pornographic, right? Like, what is it? The show is going to be pornogramming? It should have been, like, are you writing sex scenes?

I mean, I don't write sexy. I mean, you picked heated rivalry. It's not like you picked sterling points. Listen. Is there, is it spicy? Yes. It gets very fast. There's some spastic people writing spicy things about two very ham.

people who are handsome with each other in handsome ways. It's handsome. Yeah. I wouldn't say. I also thought that show was like the most romantic, sweet show. It is so sweet. Like their love was so pure and sweet. Yes.

Especially at the end. Like when, what was your experience? You just, she just rewatched episode six like a few days ago. The cottage. I have to go to the cottage every so often. Whenever I'm feeling down, I got to go to the cottage. Because you're just like, you know, and it's little grumbling, it's a little, you know, and it's a little, you know,

little Shane Buck. Point is, I could go on. My point is that we've gotten off of topic. And we're going to get back on because I wanted to bring it back to the writing of it all. Oh, look at you. Good. In terms of community and writing and, like, developing as moms, as artists, that kind of, there can be some tension there as an artist and a mom. Yeah.

And I feel like so much of what the journey is. about is make is is dissolving that resolving that tension rather and finding a way to continue to feel that that you are honoring your art whatever that looks like because it doesn't always I mean you can I guess is the question it doesn't always have to be in other people acknowledging it but there has to be some way that you feel like I've done my due diligence as an artist and they and honored it and then it's it's responded back and I've I've woven that into what you're what it is to be a mom. Yeah.

I think as artists, you always need that creative outlet. Yeah. Sometimes for me, it's like, I just need to watch a movie. You know, it's like I just need to, you know, not turn on the Dodgers game or something at night and be like, I'm going to go watch a film that's been on my list and just fill myself up that way or something. But I totally get that need for that creative outlet that you found for yourself, especially for me, writing was always like, oh, I can go do this whenever.

I don't need a bunch of actors to come together and do a thing. You know, it's like I can just go do this on my own time. So I totally get that. I think it's, you know, and, you know, obviously there's a huge conversation around mom guilt and identity. And, you know, like this summer, I really gave myself over to my kid's summer. Like, he had a camp, but then I really didn't over-schedule him in a lot of things. And I was like, I just want to have like, it's his last summer before kindergarten. I kept saying my friends, like, we're having a 90s summer.

Like, you know, we're just going to be moms. And at the end, I was like, when can I start, like, writing again? When can I, when are you going back to school? Like, you know, I was like, oh, I need to have both of those things in my life. Like, I don't think I would be, you know, not saying I'm like an amazing mother. I have my own faults, but, like, I would be a very different mother if I had just given my, you know, let that part of me go. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I've recognized it's very important for me to carve out that time for myself.

Hell yeah. Like yesterday, I had a really great writing day, and I was like, such a happier mom. Sure. Doing dinner and playing games. You can't pour it from an empty cup, sis. Exactly. No, you're going to do what you got to do for yourself in order to be able to be there for your family. Absolutely.

And I do want to say it takes an amazing mom and an amazing woman to be able to recognize that, especially at such an early part in your motherhood journey. Because I know women who don't get that until the kids are grown out of the house and their grandparents. Yeah, and it's a luxury. I mean, to be honest, it's a luxury. I have the support. I have the help, which allows me. And I know a lot of women don't have that. So how, you know, it's how you tell people to find time for yourself. And they're like, okay. You know, like, I have three children at home and no help and I'm making dinner, you know. But I'm fortunate to be able to find those moments. And then again, yesterday, I was like, I'm not going to go pick them up at school. And it kills you. And you're just like, oh, I'm not going to do the pickup. Okay. But I'm really writing the scene and I'm in the middle and it feels good. So it's always there. You know, I'm sure you know. You know. when you go, you know, when you're filming or Sterling, you know, you're on location and you're away from your kids. I mean, I think we can all speak to it. But I do think there's something about, especially when you're in a creative field, and, you know, a lot of people aren't full-time actors

and they still have that need for an outlet. I think it's important, like you said, to fill your own cup. It's addressing that sort of knee-jerk guilt that's like, am I doing the right thing for my kids, am I being present enough? But if I'm also not filling myself up, then like when I am present, am I fully present? Because I'm like, I should have done. Like there's the shoulda woulda could is are something that we can all sort of get addicted to.

And at a certain point, you was like, no, this is what I'm doing now. And when I finish that, this is the next thing I'm gonna do. And you try to keep, look, at a certain point, one or the other may feel like it's down. And you just were like, all right, now it's time to pick that thing up. Because it's hard to have them all just be. Yeah, there's never a balance. It's never perfectly balanced.

Yeah. It's like a yo-yo, I think. You're thinking something very lively. No, I have, I do have people in my life for whom, and it's not a jealousy, it's not an envy, but it's a bit of like a, I wish that for myself. But I do think that there are women and personalities where they are filled by being a mom. Like that is what fills their cup. It's like every single thing about it, you know, it's like fills their cup. And like, they're not.

And sometimes I feel like we have to give ourselves permission to be okay that every single thing about motherhood is not the thing that's also filling your cup. Right. You know? And I've seen it in action. Like, I've seen the women who were like, you know, I cut up tomatoes and they ate them. And I just, I'm on a high. I do love the lunches, I will say.

I love making me a little bento box. And listen, especially, look, when they come back empty, you want to run around the block and be like, you want somebody to be like, you're going to put up, blah, blah. Like, it's the most amazing feeling. He ate my food. Yes, you loved my sandwich. But then it comes back and when it's not eaten, you're like, where did I fail you? Where did I go wrong? But like, there are those people who just everything about it is something that they feel just fills them, fills them, fills them.

And having watched that, I thought, oh, that's what it is to be a mom or a good mom. That's what it is to be them. And it took me a very long time to get to get to that, to give the permission to be like, hey, it's okay that watching a great film also makes you excited and makes you come back and at Carline or wherever and be like, I just feel more myself. Yeah. And that's okay, too. Like there are no, there's no one way to be a great mom. No, you know. Absolutely not.

Well said. Just have to be authentic, I think, to you. Yeah. Let me ask you this one. Because like, so far we've talked about how motherhood sort of like help to sort of create the space and the incentive to sort of spin towards riding more so. I'm curious also because you got a chance to experience all of season five as a mom. did having a child affect you at all as an actor? I mean, that season five was just such a whirlwind.

It was postpartum. It was COVID. It was this new big role that I was stepping into and terrified. You know, it's funny when I found out I was pregnant with Ben, I had a friend who's, well, actually, Ken Olin's wife, Patty. Yeah. We were in New York. You guys were filming at the Met.

Yeah. And her and I went to dinner one night, and I was pregnant. and I told her she knew. But she was like, every baby comes with a loaf of bread. And I was like, what? And she was like, every baby comes at the loaf of bread. And then literally three months later, Dan comes to me and is like, they're thinking of this role.

What do you think? And I was like, this timing seems terrible. Like, why now? And I had a manager at the time that was like, you're doing this. You worked for this. This is what you wanted. Like, you're not saying no. And I, but I do think even if it's not a promotion or something.

Wait a minute. Yes. The loaf of bread means... A gift. A gift. It could mean anything. I mean, it could be... I think there were other ways of man...

You know, also, I started to not care as much. Like, I was like, oh, there's something... For so long as an actor in L.A., you're in your own... You know, when you don't have a family, it's, like, so easy to just... I mean, I was like a Renaissance woman. Like, every day, David would come home, and he'd be like, what'd you do today? And I was like, I went to the museum, and I watched a movie, and I read a play. and like, do-da-da-de-do.

And he's like, where's the dry cleaning? And I was like, I didn't have time for the dry cleaning. You know, like, I was busy being an artist. Dry clean. Yeah. He's like, and where's the dinner? I was like, no, no dinner for you. Like, you know, I filled my cup.

I don't have the loaf of bread yet to get to give you dinner. But I was like for so long just in this artist world and loving it. Yeah, yeah. And it was so consuming. And then I think when Ben, and I could just like micro focus on so many things. Like I said earlier, like an audition would come. And I'd be like, I'd be like, sorry, baby. date nights canceled, like, I'm going out for law and order tomorrow, you know.

Yeah. And it's just like, you know, and so when Ben came and being a mother, I was just like, oh, there's so much more to the story. And I have this other purpose now that I instantly feel so much more worthwhile in so many ways. Yeah. That I did have that like, I don't give a fuck kind of thing. You know, it's like, you know, I was like, I got to go pump. We got to cut the scene short because I'm going to go.

my trailer and, or I want to, you know, see him before bed. So I think it did help in that sense of, like, you had to let go a little bit more, which is always a great thing as an actor, I think, to not be in your head as much or, you know, or not be all consumed by it. It is a, it is a profession that sort of makes it, facilitates a level of self-absorption. And a child is something that does not allow for self-absorption. Not at all. Right. And for so long, I was scared of having a kid. We waited and waited because I was like, oh, my career's not where I want it to be and da-da-da-da-da.

I've heard that. And, you know, and I was so, I didn't think both things could exist. Yeah, I think a lot of people, I have a lot of friends that, you know, waited because they were like, and I think a lot of people in any career. They're like, I need to have this, this and this, and then I can have this. Sure. And, yeah, I think that's not true. I found it to be. I was better at acting when I had a more full life and more going on.

more muddying the waters, you know. Okay. Okay. So there's a, there's a dropping in that took place, a less self-consciousness. You know what I'm saying? Like there's more to life than just like every little comma or whatever, you know, like, I have born life. I'm still sustaining life.

This is something else that I can do too. But like perspective has shifted to us. We'll be right back with more. That was us. Amazon has everything you need to deliver joy to everyone on your list, like your Uncle Ricky, who made every single one of your wedding photos unforgettable, because his fly was open. So get him a three-pack of new underpants he'll really love.

And get a head start on holiday shopping with low prices on gifts everyone wants, like the latest toys and housewares, and the gifts they need, like underpants. We've got you covered, Ricky, literally. I mean, did you feel that? Yes, and. Yes, and. I definitely felt like I had more to offer as an actor. But I didn't necessarily...

I felt very... I was very present to all of the things that I couldn't do anymore as a result of having a baby and being pregnant. And, like, you know, I definitely felt like I was on this path and then the baby came and then I was on a very different path as an actor and the way that people saw me. And it was a really, it was a very different transition for me. And I, it was really hard. And I felt like it was hard because I had done something wrong. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, I always felt like, oh, you have this baby. And then the world just kind of like opens up. And like the world very much closed for me in a lot of ways. and people were, I felt very unkind to me in a way that, yeah, it was just like the weight. It was just a lot going on. I mean, I could see that if I had chosen to stay as an actor. I could see how that would feel very limiting

because you're constantly having to choose. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I had a casting director who made me, I made the mistake of going out for an audition, maybe four, five weeks, postpartum? It may be, because I remember it was still July when I went on this audition,

and I was postpartum. And a year later, I had an audition for that same casting director, and she made me send her a picture of what I looked like because she said, the last time I saw you, you were too fat. And she made me, and my agents and managers were like, send, like, here, they were the ones who told me. They weren't like, don't do it. Like, they were like, oh, she needs a picture. And I was like, why? And there was. And there was, She wanted a picture of what you looked like postpartum? No, she wanted to... No, she had seen me four weeks postpartum.

Oh, and she's like, give me an old shot. No, give me a current picture to see that you've lost the weight because you were fat the last time I saw you. I was trying to say it nicely. But she was like, the last time I saw you, you came in my office and you were fat. And I need to... I don't trust... I don't trust that you're not still fat. You're going to name them?

Absolutely not. I do that all the time. Absolutely not. I feel like... She was very, very old at the time. She might actually not even be with us because I was 15 years ago. But yeah. Wow.

And a woman. And a woman. Why are we so mean to each other? She was a woman. And she was, because she was like, I can't bring you in for these producers if you're fat. Like, I can't embarrass myself like that. And you were fat the last time I saw you. And I was like, but I was four weeks postpartum.

And my agents and managers were like, yeah, we have clients who like never got fat. So like, I don't know what you're saying. And your own team came back. Hand to God. They were like, yeah. I mean, like, you didn't have to get fat. I was like, I mean, fair. And they were like, I had a client.

And she was like two weeks postpartum, and she booked. And I was like, okay. And I was like, you're right. You had that experience. It was really, I can tell you stories. The point is, is that like. You have a platform. No, I don't want to go into all of it.

This is now a serious list. Let's make the list. It's obvious dark. But no, I mean, I say that to say that, like, I guess I tried to think of it like in I was in the same boat as you, which is like when I get X, Y, and Z, right? And like you said, a lot of other professions do the same thing. But their professions are so much more clear and so much more their path is very like, you have four years of this, you have five years of this, and then you have two years of this,

and most people make partner with it, or whatever it is. So it's so much more clear so they can say at X age. But us, it could be anytime, any place, anywhere. Right. And it's like. So abstract. It's so abstract, right? But we do know that there's something that's not abstract, which is having the kid.

Like, the kid is a very non-abstract. Right, right. This is very real. The baby is here. The baby's coming. Like, it's late. Like, you know, you don't, there's certain things that we have to just, certain eventualities and realities we have to grapple with in this like wonderful space of being artists.

It's an interesting contrast what you're talking about very because you entered motherhood sans employment and you entered motherhood with, with an opportunity. opportunity being present at the same time, thus being the loaves. So I get you. It was a tough time. It was a tough time for the bird. It was a tough time for us as a family. Yeah.

And thankfully, we've made it. We've made it. And like, you know, I was actually just saying to, I was talking to my brother today, and then I'm going to get back. I have a Madison question for you, Caitlin. I say, I feel like the bird is actually in one of the happiest places that I've experienced her in life right now, that there's a certain sort of, I think at one point in time, and you can please correct anything that I do, I'm not, I'm just sharing a perspective,

not that I'm right or wrong, that like, I felt like I would have a certain level of success going on in my career, and the bird would have a certain level of success too, but there would be sort of like, now I want what that dude has, like that, like, why can I get that? And there seems like there is something that's transpired where the bird is now emphasizing or putting greater emphasis on like, you know what? There's a lot here that is awesome and that is good. And sort of like, to what you were saying before with your husband is like Sterling's path is my path, my path is my path, and I have a good path. And I don't know if that's true or false or not, but that's my feeling of you right now. Like you seem light in a way.

that I don't think I've experienced you. Yeah. Ever? It's Connor stories. That may have a lot to do with it too. No, no, no. Honestly, I think, I don't know if you guys are familiar with the stage play. Your arms are too short to box with God.

No. But God has won. I have boxed for so long. And I really was like, at some point, I'm going to get a sucker punch in. I'm going to get home. And God was like, I'm literally gone. And I was like, yeah, but, and I was like, you know what? Let me take these gloves off because you win.

You win, you win, Lord. So this is what this is. God has beaten me down and I can't fight back. And I'm like, whatever you say, Lord. I love that. Okay. So here's a question because this is a Madison thing, but we can take this into real life as well. I'm sort of struck between season five and season six, the relationship with Kevin and the relationship with Adam, right, played by a lot.

Elijah played by Adam. Right, right, right, right, right. Who I love. Great. He's freaking awesome. Yeah. I felt, like, Dan really found a way to put himself into the show. I was like, because I feel like he stands for Dan.

He's like, I almost let you married like the hot guy, but now you're going to marry me, right? The question, because, like, at the end of five, you're trying to get him to Kev to say, like, do you love me? Right. Wait, at the end of season five. At the end of season five, right? And he talks about, like, I love him. love what we've created. I love this family that we have, like, cannot not be enough. And she's like, no, dude, I've fallen in love with you, right? And I need to know, like, do you love me?

Are you in love with me? Right. Can't say it because it was not his truth, right? Now, in six, like, you've begun this relationship with Elijah, who's friggin' awesome. And he has this moment where he comes out and he talks to Kev. And he's like, look, man, I'm really feeling this woman. And I know I'm punching above my weight. Like, I know that, like, the fact that she even wants to, like, deal with me is, like, a dream come true. But if you're waiting for me to go because you think there's going to be an opening, you're going to be waiting for a long time. And he puts his big boy pants on and everything.

And he's expecting, like, Kev to kind of push back. And Kev's like, all right, man, I got you. Right. Like, noted. I forgot about that scene. It's great. Yeah, yeah. It's really, really wonderful.

But the question is, because I've heard this from women before. And I don't know if the show was saying this in so many words. And I'm curious what you ladies think about it. Does the dude have to love the woman more than the woman loves the dude? I mean, I feel like Kevin was just like saying, like, I'm not there at all, kind of. Like, I love what we've created. I love the picture of this, the idea of this. But I definitely think there has to be a mutual.

love. I would say, I would say mutual, but I'm asking more specifically. I mean, great. I think it's always great if the guy could be like a little more in love with you. I've got the upper hand here. That sounds awesome. Do you agree? You know, I've heard this articulated

from... I've heard like women in my family. I don't know if women in your family said like grandmas, my, you know, aunties, and a little bit when the older women have always had that. And I call it my bachelor hypothesis. Okay, so on The Bachelor, if we look at all the Bachelors, when they pick their woman, Yeah.

The show. The show. Yeah. I don't think any of them have stayed with the woman that they've picked. Is that true? Is that true? Joey? Maybe.

That was like the only season I watched Joey. I think we're bad. I think it's like nine have gotten divorced or never ended up going to the altar and one did. But if you look at the reverse, the Bachelette stays. The Bachelorette is different. It's a different calculus. Okay. So my theory is, is that when men have to compete for a woman, they feel like they've gotten a prize.

And when men see women competing for them, they're like, I'm the prize. Well, I'm the prize. So who else is going to compete for it? Like, I can keep getting better and tighter rings of women who are going to compete with me. You know, as a dude, I can't even, that's a good one. What do you think about that? I'm not mad at your hypothesis. Well, because it does explain, like oftentimes at HBCUs, historically black colleges and universities,

disproportionate amounts of women to men. Women are way more successful earlier in life in the black community than our dudes, right? And so you have ratios of 7 to 1, 11 to 1, 16 to 1, women to men on campus. And the dudes are like, why choose when I have, you know, the multitude? There are so many women and only a few of me. They need us. And let them be tall and good looking. And then they're just like, I can spend.

I actually even had this conversation with a friend of mine because I was like, if I looked, if I was the male version of Ryan, I think I would be an insufferable. You had this conversation with me. I'm your friend. Yeah. No, but actually, I had it. It's awesome that she also sees you as a friend. I had it with one of my sorority sisters this summer before I had it with you. And I kept having it with you.

But like it's like, you sounded incredibly vain as a man. But I feel like, don't you feel like as a woman, like don't you feel like, especially living in Hollywood, right? Like this does take Hollywood, for example. Objection, Your Honor, leading the witness. Okay, go ahead. Okay, let's go back to like pre-COVID, pre-kids. Remember when it was like what it took to be the hot chick versus like the hot guy? Like they would just like roll out of bed and like it would be some dude who was like, yeah.

Like, I just, like, was playing football at, like, you know, like, Patagonia State University. And, like, this woman came up to me and was like, yo. And, like, I don't know. She was, like, with C-A-P-C-A, like, something. And, like, yeah, I'm here, like, testing for this pilot. And you're like, you're like, you dirty mother. Like, did you eat? Like, yeah, like, you just didn't even, like, shower smear.

Like, what the? And, like, meanwhile, we've curled every, we try so hard. Every tit is up. You know, and we've literally taped in. Oh, my God. Well, Dan will tell you I gave that up real quick. We got together in 2009, and then I was like, okay, I'm going to let it all eyelashes off, hair out. You gave the real.

You're like auditions, don't you feel? As women, we have to, like, put everything. I was thinking about how I used to, like. For men, you're saying. Oh, I was literally thinking about this the other day, how I would sometimes roll out of bed, put on a club dress, back of the closet, find that tight dress and heels and have to, like, bring the change. of heels that you would change outside the door because you knew you needed to be in these heels.

Yes. Yes. And it would be, you look, I called it being on the host roll. Yeah. And you have a trench coat over it because you're like walking the lot. Yes, they walk on the lot. And like there's all these men and these like golf cards

and they're like, you know, the crew, and most of them are really nice, but here you are with like everything literally about to hang out. And it's like, and then like five paces in front of you is the same dress as you, like, maybe a different, Maybe a different color, same spot. And it's just like, click, click, click. We all look like prostitutes.

And our feet are hurting and we're sweating. You're going into the bathroom before, like, blotting yourself because you're just like. Yes. Yes. It's terrible. And everybody has that serious face. And you have that thought. Like, is everybody else like, did everybody else also get this dress, this like stripper dress

that you only had for these auditions? Like, I would never be caught dead in this in life. Never go dead. So I had to audition for a black exploitation film one. And I bought these, like, I went on Melrose. It was badass. Oh, always Melrose. By the groundlings, like that little strip.

I found my sister. Like $10 dresses. Lord have mercy. I had like these denim little panties and this thing. Denim panties? They were denim pant. And you know, I had a big old, everything was just hanging. Yeah, you do.

Awful. And I went in and it was, the guy was just like, he was like, and you know, and you try to like, you want to like be the kid. character, but you're also like, you're smart because you're like, I'm not really a thing. Everything. You're just like, this isn't really me. Take me seriously, please. And then he was like, he was like, do you usually dress like this?

And I really, it was everything that I wanted to say. It was like, at Stanford University, no. When I was like, no, he goes, you should. I was like, you should. Oh, you should. You're like, you should. Is that a compliment or not a compliment? I didn't know.

I wanted him to drop down. No, I'm saying in terms of how you received. I didn't know. I was hoping you were going to say he was like, have some more respect for yourself. No, he was like, you don't need to do this to get this job. He was like dressed like in a sweatshirt and I would have loved you.

No, girl, he was like more T&A. Getting my little trench coat and wrapping myself up. There's always the trench coat and the flip flops in the purse. You know what's interesting because like there's an ambivalence to how you feel about that, which I think makes sense. Would you be less ambivalent if somebody gave you that exact same compliment right now? I think I would still be equally ambivalent only because I was half naked. They weren't lying.

It's a very vulnerable place to like, you know, I mean, I don't live half naked for my, I mean, maybe for my job I was, I was just listening in that song, like, what is it, get the cat, like, I don't care that you get, it was the Usher song, like. I have no idea what you're saying. Anyway, it's basically like, I love you anyway because you're a stripper, baby, get that money. Anyway, and I was like, what an interesting way to live life. You know what I mean? I was like, I love that.

You know, I've never, I have a great deal of respect for people who live that life. I just was never very comfortable being physically vulnerable a lot of the time, you know, with everything out. I think coming to Los Angeles and you let me know what you think about this, Ohio. Like there is, as people who I would consider in front of me to be intellectuals, like you want people to see you for your intelligence first and foremost. But I think for women, for young women, in particular in this industry, that's not usually, at least not when we first started off,

the thing that was going to get you through the front door necessarily. It looks for women are premium. As a young woman, like how you look, how you present yourself is the thing that people pay attention to first and foremost. And you hope that maybe that's the thing, but then like now look at my brain. Yeah. And maybe they're like, no, no, no, I just want to stay on the outside.

But it's like the question is, like, if we're a not, you know, I support women, I'm a feminist. But we're the ones that are kind of feeding into that narrative in some ways, especially in this industry. It's like we're playing up to it in the same way. I mean, I don't, I think it's shifted and changed. And I, you know, I think that wouldn't fly in a lot of ways. And I haven't auditioned in a while, so I don't know. But it's like, we have, you know, it's like, you know, it's like. We were buying into that narrative at the same time.

Like we were like, oh, I want this. So I have to do this. And it's like, you know, I wasn't being like, no, I'm going to be in my big baggy sweatshirt and you're going to have to take me as I am. Like I was like, okay, I'll put on the little dress and the heels and hopefully, you know. So I think there's something interesting about, you know, how it, I don't want to say it takes two because I think there's like imbalance there. Sure. When you want something, sometimes you play the. game in a way.

I tell Rye all the time, if I can be the male Fran McDermann, that's when I know that I've truly made it. Fran don't give a fuck. Like, not at all. And because she knows she's bad to the bone. I ain't got to play anybody else's game but mine. I would love for you to interview her because I would love to know how, don't you ever think about people who have that level.

of, like, I mean, Franman Dorman is an amazing human being. She's badass. Yes. I wonder, though, did she just always know instinctively? Was it something she was born with? Did something happen where she was like, I had this massive thing that happened. Like, I-We're talking about Francis McDormand? Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He calls a friend. Oh, I think he said friend McDormand. I was like, you have an alter ego named Friend McDormant. I was like, I'm just going to smile and nod at this one and hope we keep moving on. That is your alter, you totally called it though. That is your, the next time we go out somewhere. I'm going to like, this is your alter.

Dr. Dr. M. Okay, now I know we're talking about. Frances McDermann. Yeah. Amazing. But put a bow on that, not to bring it back to heated rivalry, but to bring it back to heat at rivalry.

Wasn't it? No, no, no. There's a point here. I think for me, and this is a question. One of the things that I realized that was so healing, about the show was that the object of desire were both men. And it was very nice to see sexuality, sensuality, romance, all of those things with the women, with our bodies being taken out of the equation.

Oh. And it was really nice to be able to see all of that without it. Yeah, seeing their butts. Yeah, seeing their butts and their bodies and then, and like... I do nothing but show my butt. You do. But you're different. You're different.

But even still, it's like, it's in relationship. to a woman and a woman's and it's always a woman has to come in and be half naked and it's always more, you know what I mean? I do think that. I didn't think about that the moment, but I do think there was something to it that was so freeing to a woman. Yeah. I think like I can be invested in this love story.

I can enjoy it. I can feel all the things and not feel like I'm being. No sense of objectification. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I like that. I didn't think of it that way, but I definitely think that had to be a part of, you know,

what the appeal was. Yeah. All right. I told you. That was what I said. Yeah, it was just about, yeah, about the women. And, and again, becoming, getting to a point you and I where it's like, we're just, we've come to a place where we can enjoy being artists. Mm-hmm.

You know, and it doesn't have to be, we don't have to get through the stripper dresses, sparkly heels and the whole thing just to get to a place where we can get in a room and show people what we can do. Yeah. This is a great conversation. It's not at all what I anticipated being. Me neither, but I love it. I think just in terms of artistry, in terms of motherhood, and trying to find that balance and making sure that you carve space out for yourself. And like a pivot, you know, later on, it's like,

I thought this acting thing was it, but I've always loved this writing thing, and I didn't give it up. And it's actually the thing that gives me even more passion right now. I say kudos to you and all of those things. Let me ask you a couple of Madison questions before we go, because I know we had a fan. I'm going to read it verbatim. Oh, yes.

I'm going to read it verbatim because I could extrapolate, but I want to... I got one question, one fan. You have tons. You have tons, but this is one that was specific. Okay, okay. The fan wrote in. This is for episode 516. Yeah.

I thought it was so cool how the conversation went between Kevin and Madison right before the wedding was supposed to happen. They were talking at the same time with different cadences and all. I've always wondered how long it took to practice that because they could not totally listen to each other while speaking. Or could they? So cool. What do you remember about the scene?

And what do you remember about, like, prepping for it? Oh, I mean, I was so nervous for that scene. Like, I just kept seeing it come closer and closer on the schedule and being like, uh-huh. Like, it just felt like, you know, because she was this character that wasn't taken seriously for so long and, like, found her voice. And I just wanted to do her justice. And I felt like, I think Dan and I were like, this feels like Madison's Super Bowl.

And I've got to, like, stick the landing here. Yeah. The pressure of that was just unreal, but I really, one of a quality that I like about myself is when I get scared, like, I just kind of dig into the work a little bit more. And so I was so overly prepared for that scene. And I had options A, B, and C, if one wasn't working for me that I could go to because I was like, I cannot fuck this up. Like, this cannot go bad. And I remember, like, we did our first run through. And I knew the lines so well. I mean, but we did our first run through it. I was fumbling the lines. And I remember Justin made a joke.

He's like, well, you have five minutes to learn her lines. And I was like, no, no, I know them. I know them. I just, it just, I was so, you know. And so I just remember, like, sitting off to the side, we were in those little wooden boxes that used to put us in for the time. That's right. Crow it, yeah.

And I was like, I'm just going to relax. And that's, I know I have it all. And I'm just going to relax and be in the moment. And that'll be it. And, and, yeah, I think I just really wanted to honor the character and do her justice in that moment and I think it was such a big thing of her finding her voice and I think that like overlapping moment was like her having that agency over her decision and being like finding her voice in that moment and being like it's going to be okay I'm going to be okay if this is going in the way I think

it's going and it was a really rewarding thing to get to be able to play that for her for somebody that was often the joke and the light you know and you know I think for so much of Madison was her insecurity and that's kind of where I always would come from with her is like she presents big but inside she feels very small so she's got to have that big mask with the hair and the thing but yeah I just felt in that moment very the most locked in I think I've ever felt in the scene where it just felt like I had prepared so much and I had now been the character for you know a good chunk and getting those bigger scenes in season five that I just felt more of her coming through in that moment than I ever had.

Hell yeah. Which is really rewarding. Preparation can do a great deal to alleviate nerves. Oh, yeah. And so many things in life. Even at my son's school, the head of the school was saying, like, for anxiety and kids, she's like, we always channel that through action. You know, it's like when they're scared to something, we're like, what can you do about?

What can you physically do? And so, yeah, I think in that moment, all those 20 years of acting classes, you know, you're like, just be relaxed and then the rest will follow. And if I'm nervous, it's not going to come, you know, nothing's going to come through. So that was kind of an interesting. It was like the one time I felt like I really relaxed in front of the camera. Well, it's beautiful. And then I retired.

You didn't retire because you come back in season six. And in season six, it does seem like Madison is her big girl pants are on. And when the father of her children wants one thing and she, she wants something else, she routinely speaks up for herself. As new love enters into her life, she routinely says like, hey, man, we're not together. You know what I'm saying? I'm curious, like, what that color felt like because we're on season six.

Yeah. Touch on it. Yeah, going back. I mean, I remember because she did love him, it wasn't like that, just went away. Yeah. So for her, the love was there and real. So it was kind of carrying that into season six. It wasn't like, well, he doesn't love me, so bloop, bloop, blu, blu.

Like I still wanted to have some of that coming through where there was a sadness for her or regret or, you know, they're raising a kid. It's like, I'm sure ideally you would want to be a family and be a unit. So it was definitely like allowing myself to still carry those feelings for him, but then also allowing myself to move on. Yeah. It is nice.

It's one of those moments, like as a human being, you can have love for someone and still establish boundaries for yourself and how you want to move forward with your life. Right? Like they don't have to contradict. They may not fit perfectly, but it's like, I'm going to continue.

I'm going to have Thanksgiving here at home with my kids and you can go to the cabin. Like, this man is going to become a part of my life. And it doesn't mean that you don't get to hang out with your kids. But like, you're going to have to deal with a little bit of discomfort for it because I'm gonna keep going. Yeah, I think it's like what we said earlier, even about motherhood and everything,

like always filling your own cup and not letting yourself not be a part of that equation. Yeah. Yeah, I, it was definitely a fun, interesting angle to play that character in. You killed it. You did. I was actually just thinking about, like, how amazing it was.

To hear you articulate all the nerves that you have and the sort of like listening to Rye say, like I, you know, I'm glad it's her and not me. Like, I can imagine to a certain extent feeling like you have a bit of a target on your back and like, can she really do X, Y, Z? Can she really, like you met the challenge, you exceeded the challenge and you're one of the most memorable characters on the show outside of the Pearson's, man. Like you did the damn thing. Well, it was never because of anybody, like I said, it was all self-manufactured. You guys always made me feel very welcome and a part of the, the.

the cast. But yeah, I'm happy with Madison's story. I'm honored to be able to play that character. And it was just the best experience. I miss that world. I miss the Pearson world all the time. It was a great. It was just a great world to be in.

Me, Mandy, and Chris talk about it all time. As we've moved on with our careers and have had other wonderful things transpired, there was something, it was a really magical six years. Like family, like, my wife will tease me. He's like, you really think that. They're your family. I don't really think anything. Like, they are.

They are. As much as my family is my family. Like, you guys are part of my life for the rest of my life. We have text threads with just the four of us and your husband, where we talk about me and your husband are married to each other now. And we are the heated rivalry that my wife gets excited about. Is that the new fan fiction? Maybe that's what it is.

But we'll finish. Finish with this. Thank you for coming in. Appreciate it. This was a lot of fun. So such a nice surprise to see you. I love the time we get to spend together. This is really, really special. You're great.

And if you are half the writer that you are an actress, watch Outworld. Oh my God. So Queen might as. Give Brian a job. Kate, will you do me a favor? Yes. Will you look into your camera? Yeah.

you tell them the name of this podcast, please. That was us. You can watch new episodes of That Was Us a day early on Hulu, and our entire back catalog is also on Hulu. And since This Is Us is also on Hulu, it's kind of the perfect setup. Guys, it makes it easy. Watch This Is Us, then watch That Was Us all on Hulu. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions.

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