That Was Us - Chat Was Us | Marriage

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

This week on That Was Us…another favorite segment of the pod, Chat Was Us! This time, we’re talking about something at the heart of so many This Is Us stories: marriage, partnership, and what it means to build a life together. And for this conversation, Mandy, Sterling, and Chris have brought along their spouses! Together, the six of them get candid about love, commitment, compromise, and all the ways a marriage evolves over time. In this episode, the conversation covers: - How each couple knew they wanted to build a life together - Whether marriage was always something they imagined for themselves - The memories they each hold onto from their wedding days - What they remember most about the first year of marriage - The ingredients they believe make for a successful marriage - How you navigate the fact that two people can change dramatically over the course of a marriage - The role compromise plays in a healthy partnership - How having children can change a marriage - The importance of continuing to choose each other through different seasons of life - And a few fun marriage superlatives along the way! And a friendly reminder, you can catch new episodes of That Was Us every Monday, a day early, exclusively on Hulu. Available on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts on Tuesdays like usual! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Visit timhordens.com slash triangle for details. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another installment of Chat Was Us. which by now you might be familiar with, but if you're tuning in for the first time, in these episodes we riff on a certain topic inspired by this is us. And today, ladies and gentlemen, we are talking about marriage.

That's right. And this time we have some very special guests here with us. Our spouses! Ryan, Rachel, and Taylor are here with us today, so we're getting the marriage perspective from all six of us. This is us.

Gave us so many different marriages to talk about Jack and Rebecca, Beth and Randall, Kate and Toby, McGowan Rebecca. Glad we got those guys in there, too. They're often forgotten about. And all of the ways that relationships, those relationships evolved over the years. So today, we're going to take some of those themes and we're bringing them into our own lives. But first, let's just check in with one another. This is so cool. I feel like we talk about you guys all the time. We do. We've been talking shit about you guys. for hundreds of episodes. Threads has let me know.

And now, yeah, your algorithm is like, here's what your husband's been saying. Yeah. Now it's our side of the stories. Now it's your turn. So this is what I find interesting, though, because the bird has been here. Yeah.

Taylor has been on our live. Uh-huh. This is the first for Rachel. This is Rachel's first time. Welcome to our mix. How are you feeling? Good. Excited?

You guys are like family. This is fun. Rachel. Do you listen to the podcast? Yes, yes. No, tell the truth. Okay, I haven't listened to all the episodes. That's right.

But I have listened to. One or two. Yes. You haven't heard anybody say anything negative about you in any shape, form or fashion. No, did I miss one? No, yeah. Then you definitely don't listen to the podcast. No, but it's funny, like, whenever Rachel and I have something like this that we do together,

there's something that comes over the household and it is two ways to prepare for something. prepare for something. Yeah. Which is to prepare on Rachel's side and to not prepare on my side. What does preparation versus non-preparations like? Anything. Pre-discussions. Pre-discussions, checking the outline, sharing answers, betting answers. Yeah. But it's just... Let me just be clear. This was a desire. It didn't actually happen. Okay. We did it last night. A little bit. We did like 20% of what I would I was like, we're going to talk about all. So you go over, that's what you do. You go over, this is a corporate background.

Like, you go over the material. I love that. Well, it's like, I have to have almost, like, for me, I have to memorize almost everything so that I have room to play. Yes. That's, like, my process. It is kind of the opposite for him. So.

Yeah. I'm curious, though, when it comes to, like, work, like, doing your work on set or something, Are you similar? Do you not like to prepare? No, he prepares. I am similar. Certainly going to have talked about this to where we prepare to a certain point, but I am not like overly concerned about like the fine details of it. Sure, sure, for my body for spontaneity.

That makes sense. And spontaneity, as we've discussed in our couples therapy is like my favorite thing. my love language. But it is interesting because some people achieve spontaneity through the preparation. Right. You know what I'm saying? I know exactly what you're talking about.

Where you feel comfortable enough, you're like, I've done all of my homework and now I can play. Yeah, I have freedom. Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. Whereas like, I'm going to do my homework on the bus on the way to school.

Well, see, it's also fair. We didn't do our homework at all. Listen, like, we do the homework, but I also love the idea that I don't have to stick to it verbatim. Like that I don't have to like, if something happens in the moment that like inspires you and takes you on a slight tangent, I feel like the train tracks, right, you know this analogy, are wide enough that there's room inside of them to sort of play around. Well, also, I mean, with music, especially like if we're sound checking and we're going over, especially like an improvisational moment, which is not dissimilar from what we're about to do. Yeah.

If like a solo starts like really lightened it up and we're all looking at each other like super connected and it's really working. we almost are all like, let's stop, let's stop. Right, right, right, right. Because it's working right now. And similar to, like, you know, the first time I tell a dumb joke to one of my kids, and it's funny. And then the second time, it's not that's good anymore. Like, it's so important to protect that, that, yeah, that spontaneous spirit.

But also, like, you know, got to know the chords. You got to know the court. That's right. There are times on. We're about to jam up in you. On set, like, when we rehearse a scene, and if I know I have an idea, have something I want to do, I won't do it during the rehearsal. Oh, yeah, save it.

You know what I'm saying? You gotta save it. It keeps that spark. Yeah, when we were rehearsing the comedy play, the Broadway play that I did a few years ago, one of the actors, Darcy Cardin, found a really funny moment. And then she's like, we don't open for another four weeks. I'm not gonna do that every day.

Right, right, we found it. Yeah. Now I'm just gonna do nothing until it's time. Yeah, yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense. Should we start it with a game? Should we play a little game?

But before, wait, before this game, I want to say, how are you? I missed you guys. So in terms of the chronology of how everything plays out, I had to miss the last couple of episodes because I was still shooting Paradise. We've now finished shooting it, right? But I got to tell you. Congratulations. It's really one of the first times in my life where I've experienced FOMO. We miss you.

We miss you two. We did miss you. I was like, they're doing the podcast without me. Yeah. I was like, I don't know how I feel about it. Because certain part of you thought it wasn't possible. There's a part. Well, by the way, it was different.

It's different. It's different. There was a couple times during an interview. I was like, okay, I looked at Sally like, what else are we? What? Where should we go from here? With you in the mix, there is never silence. I have lots of questions.

Yeah, exactly. My name is Sterling K. Brown, and I have a lot of questions. That is true. But you guys had a good time. Did you have FOMO when me, your wife, and your children were at Martha's Vineyard without you? I just want to be very clear. It was the podcast. I did not get that up for comparison.

Here's a thing. You have spent time with the kids before with. without me. I've never not been in the podcast. Yeah, since we started. Since we started. That's the argument. Apples and orges. Okay, I didn't miss you guys.

But I wanted to give you guys, because Mandy just got back from Mexico. Yeah, just a little vacation. You guys, and the tan, I asked if it was a spray tent. She said, this is not. This is God-given. This is me. You guys are looking sun-kissed and delightful.

It was a good time? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's beautiful. Chris has been doing his show, But have you guys gotten to shoot up to Vancouver by any chance? They're coming up this weekend. Going up this weekend. Yeah.

You're on episode what right now? We're in the middle of four. Oh, wow. We're grooving. We are grooving. We are grooving. Dang, come. Are you still bouncing back every weekend?

As much as I can. Yeah. How many are you doing? We're doing 10 total. Okay, got it. And then around episode five filming, we should hear if we get some more. Okay. Wow.

If that makes sense. Yeah, knock on all the things. More within the first season. Yeah. Oh, go. Yeah, so that we don't have to stop production. So it could go up to 13, it could go up to 18, something like that. Okay, we'll see. So then this is where the bird and I took our first trip ever to Martha's Vineyard. Oh, right? Okay. So beautiful.

This is a bougie, black dream come true for the bird. And you did, she... Keep going, keep going. I'm listening. No, no. Keep going. And it was like, guys, so it is gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. The weather was like, I, I, I'm listening. I thought it was perfect. It was a little rainy or whatnot.

But when we got back to Kear, it was like 100. And there it was like 78. Oh, yeah. Oh, delightful. It was a little chilly for me to be. When we go to the beach or whatnot, like I will try to find like a one spot with shade. And Ryan will find like a rock, like a cat and just lay on the rock. Yes.

It's a very different rock. That's what the beach is for. That's what the beach is for. Right? That's right. I already got a fun tan. I'm good. So it's beautiful.

Like the architecture is, I wouldn't say it's like historical, but like it feels like there's some sort of... Some of the buildings are very historical. They're really... Mid-century Caucasian. Mid-century Caucasian, nice wraparound porches, nice steps and everything like that. But then August, you guys, I don't know if you knew this, is like the blacks come.

Really? Wait, wait, wait, wait. To Oatblocks. To a section of it called... The blacks come. What explains? In full force. Okay.

Oak Bluffs, right? Oak Bluffs. And it is like a menagerie of people of all ages, kids from probably about seven to 18, and they're out, and they are running around, and parents are nowhere to be fun. Parents are like on porches or whatever, and like every once in a while they come and check in.

It's like, can I get some money to go to the arcade? Can I get some money to go to the donut shop? And they're just kicking. House parties break out. Like a DJ will be on the porch of a house or whatnot and just playing for that house. And then people just start to hear the music and everybody just sort of gormary.

How did this become a thing? Yeah, did you guys get, have friends there? It's been the thing for a very long time. Have you ever heard of this movie called the inkwell? No. Who's in the inkwell? AJ. AJ John.

You know that guy, Maddie Rich. Matty Rich did. It was in the 90s. So back in the day, black folks used to come to this spot. And then white folks would be like, oh, we don't want to get in the water because their skin comes off. And so they called it the inkwell.

But then we sort of just took it on and owned it as if, like, you want to call it that? All right, this is our inkwell, right? So for years, especially in the month of August, right? I don't know. I think the month of August is more recent because of the film festival. And there's like, yeah, there's a Martha's Vineyard Film Festival. You know, there have been a few, like Spike Lee goes every year. Spike Lee has a house there.

He has a house there. So I think in the recent years, August has become the time to go. But for decades, it's been a vacation spot for black people on the East Coast to just go. So you can go to different spots. Like, we stayed in a spot called... Edgartown. Edgartown, which is more white, right? But then Edgartown and Oak Bluffs are seven miles apart.

And you go from one to the other and you're like, oh, my gosh. And everybody... In Toronto, every arrival is a statement. And nothing says it better than this. Cadillac Optic was the number one selling luxury EV in Canada for 2025. Find your rhythm across a seamless 33-inch display and an immersive 19-speaker AKG surround audio system. This city demands agility and optic delivers with precision to make every drive extraordinary. Let's take the Cadillac. Find out more at Cadillac Canada.ca.

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That's incredible. It was pretty awful. It's like a dream. where Andrew Brown, like, I think he was on, like, FaceTime somebody. He goes, Dad, did we go to Barack Obama's house? I was like, yeah. And he's like, have I met OBJ? And I was like, yeah.

And he's like, I told you. I'm like I told you. So it's even cool for anyone. And I will say I was, I was proud that my children did not embarrass me. Because that, you know, I mean, you guys all have lovely, I have lovely children. You do have lovely children. I have children that, you know, I have. Children are unpredictable.

Children are unpredictable. They are. But I do wish that I had. I mean, I'm grateful that I tried the gentle parenting. But as I look back, I'm like, oh, I probably should have snatched and grabbed a little bit more. Once or twice. One or two not. Just tie them into it.

I mean, I hate to say that. Not an action strike, but a good shake. One or two, you know, just like you do have a crazy mom. And she will. She will go. She's going to go medieval. You know what I mean? But I tried to like regulate my emotions and be like, listen, Mommy is very upset.

right now. But I'm always going to love you. But we're that. You know, I tried to be that mom, and now I wish that they had seen a different side of me. There's still time. But now that Andrew's bigger than me, I have this concept where I'm like, I'm going to have to take him down. I'm going to have like a Louisville slugger and be like, you have no longer. But you know, because no one's going to, no one will have a bad thought about it. He's bigger than you. He's, yeah. Andrew has about 5'10 now. Yeah. Yeah, but he's still like, you know, he's looking He would just be in these little fat. He still has little fat cheeks.

So I'm like, they got more collagen. Yeah, they have more collagen. But I do war with myself because I'm like, should I go medieval on you? Yeah, just sweep the legs. No. You know what it is? Chris and Mandy and I've talked about this a little bit. Like, as they get older or whatnot and start to assert their independence, this is a natural part of the development.

And it is not always the most comfortable part for either one of us. Yeah. Right? But it is age-appropriate behavior. And I think I keep saying it out loud because I'm reminding myself as I'm reminding you. Real talk. Because he can be a pain in the butt,

but I think he's supposed to be a pain. Right, right, right. It'd be weird if he was perfect, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, he's cool people. Let's do this gang. Let's do the gang. Chris, you and talk us through.

Yes, getting to know all you, getting to know all of you. Those are the flags, yes. Okay. Welcome to the game. The marriage superlatives. Is this for both of us, or is it just for the spouses? It's for both of us. It's for the fight for the flags.

Okay. So I guess put the flag somewhere where everybody can get. So I am going to identify kind of a role in the relationship. Green flag is, that's me. Yellow flag is, massomenos. And red flag is definitely not me. I like you. You have to say it like that?

You definitely have to say it like that. Right. Welcome to having to say it like that. All right. The first one, we'll start over there with Taylor and Mandy. Best date planner. Who's going for it? Yeah, Massa menos.

I think I would say you. Oh, you would hand me the green. I would hand you the green. Wow. What would you take for yourself? I would go in the middle. You'd go in the middle. Yeah.

Okay. So who plans them mostly? Tell me a good date that I planned. Okay, yeah. That's a good question. I just think you are inherently like a more, like you're a better listener and therefore a more thoughtful person in just like generally speaking. Wow.

I think. And then Mandy's like, let's get dinner. That kind of. You guys at a high bar. I think I am a meticulous planner, but I don't, I think you're, I think you're, you're, you were just more encompassing in terms of like how thoughtful you are about things or trips or places or like, oh, remember that coffee shop we read about like and blah, blah, blah, like let's plan our day where we go there.

Like I'm less, I'm more just pragmatic of like, okay, let's get from point A to point B and make sure that the kids are fed and their snacks. Also, dates are such a funny thing in our lives right now. It's like, oh, if we go now, we can be back before. Right, right, right, right, right. So we can sleep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

It's so efficient. Do you want us to go next? You go next. Bird, what do you say? Best date planning. Who plans a better date? Definitely. Yeah.

One thousand percent. Explain. I have analysis paralysis. So there's like 17 things I want to do, and I think I can do 18 of them. And then I end up doing none of them and being mad about the fact that I didn't get to do anything. And then I'm like, well, it's time to go to bed. A lot of decisions. He would prefer it.

I think your preference. would be if I was to be like, okay, listen, this is what we're going to do. I would prefer if you even just held a yellow flag. I know, I know. But it then becomes, I think you've taken on the mantle of something that is not necessarily innate in you. Yeah. Because you, you, we worry, you're like, I'm not real. Right.

But you've learned that over time because you're like, well, she knows I'm not romantic. She's more of a romantic. Why doesn't she just do it? And I'm like, because I am 17 plans. Yeah. And I don't know which one. because if we only have one day and if we go here and food is nasty.

A lot of our decisions are made by not making decisions sometimes. Yeah. In that way. Process of elimination. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just surf Netflix until you don't make a decision, go to bed. Yeah, basically. Bingo.

Yeah. You know, it's like, oh, we know that was a lot of really interesting key art. Yeah. And 30 seconds of trailer. Yeah. How long have you guys been married? 20. 20?

20. Yeah. Eight. Eight. Yeah. Eight. And we're 16. Wow. Look at that.

Different goals. They're all even. Marriage goals. Wait, wait. What about you, sir? What about you? Who's the best they planned between you two? Oh, you put it in the thing.

That's cute. Like, best. Okay. For frequency. Okay. Yeah. You plan more days. She takes, yeah, so I'll be maso menos.

Okay. Massomenos. I guess I'm more like you. I'm like, we're going. Here's where we're going because we plan the night. Yeah. I know this restaurant's going to be. It's our jam.

Yeah. We like find our favorite places and then it becomes our place for a hot minute until there's a new place, you know? Yeah, of course. And then it feels a little bit like special. But it's easy. Like I'm like, okay, what's our new place? And once I know the new place, I'm like, okay, I will plan the date.

Let's just do it. Yeah. Got it. But he is a little bit more thoughtful, I would say, like similarly, well, want to do something a little bit more grand, spontaneous, right? Like, try to. Roll the dice a little bit. But again, the four of us over here on this side have children under the age of seven.

Yeah, right. And so dating in the last, you know, half decade has. God bless you. You know, I think it's a lot of day dates. A spontaneous day dates. A spontaneous day date is fun. Those are good. You do have to be receptive to those things because if you're waiting for the night and each time,

sometimes like the fatigue of just parenting through the day and then trying to do something at eight. Yeah. No. Child, please. Yeah. The best thing we can do for each other is to just go to sleep. Yeah. The best pilot that I read a pilot once years ago that was called 48 hours till Monday.

And it was like the difference between like you had a weekends used to mean something. And then the whole pilot was like just them surviving the weekend and how Monday felt like the new Friday. Yeah. You know, when you become a family. You get them back into school. Yeah. And then there's that. I'm like,

I'm like, seven hours of free. You're like, oh, thank you. Yeah. And I was like, I love that pilot. I mean, the pilot was great, but I loved the con,

because I was like, oh, yeah. Like, there was a time with people like, what are your weekend plans? It's Friday. TGIF. And then you're like, TGI. What?

Yeah. God, it's Monday. Yeah. I'm trying so hard to get back from Vancouver all the time when we come home on the weekends. And then, you know, if I'm home on a weekday, I'm like, I just got to get home.

All right, let's get you somewhere else for eight hours. We could get you for eight and a half hours? You have aftercare at school? Okay, great. This guy, this Sterling, we would have sometimes where we had nothing to do, and he would wait until five o'clock on the dot. He would not get our kid at 458.

He would not get our kid at 459 or 30 seconds. He was like, I'm a value guy. And he was like, this is $45 a second. And I'm getting all my money's worth. And I'd be like, just go get the kid. He would stand outside and be like, nope. Watch the child. What's the next one?

All right, the next one. Biggest overpacker. Oh, come on. Oh, please. That's not even. Oh, give me this. Give me all the flag. Give me all the flags.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All the flags. Pick it up, Rich. Go ahead. Everyone pick up. Come on. Every one. Yeah.

Mandy will, like, it'll be like Tuesday. We're leaving on a Friday. She's going to be packed yet. I'm like, no. She's start that early. Really? I want to pack on Thursday night for 10 minutes. We're leaving.

to go on a trip next Tuesday, I'm like, when can I start packing? Like, I'll definitely start this week. Now, this is an established role too, right? Like, Rachel packs for the kids. One, because she's really great at it. Two, she needs to do it so that she knows it's been done. That's the truth.

Right? That's right. Yeah, there's not even a complaint when maybe. I'm like, I'm not really carrying my weight here. And she's just like, no, no, this is the way it should be. Yeah. But if we are, but if we are flying, if we're not flying, If we're not flying somewhere, if we're going somewhere in the car,

that's when things get hairy, guys. That's when appliances start getting put in the car. That's when I'm like, did you pack the blender? A humidifier. A humidifier. Did you go into an Airbnb? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, 100%, of course.

Other things. Okay, well, okay, I did, okay, one time. Did you pack the air fryer? No, no, but I did bring the Vitamix one time. Yes, this is what I'm saying. Here's the thing. Like, I love it. I'm down.

You need a good blender. You're going to make a smoothie. Yeah. You're going to shave ice. It's overpacking. That's all. That's all. It's preparation.

I've always shared, right? You have to be over, especially when you have kids because there's always a time when you decide, I don't really, they're old enough. I don't need a change of clothes. They're fine. And that's the time when they're like,

oh, yeah. This is very life. Yeah. But we also sometimes. pack like we're not going to a place that has a CVS. But then there's not going to the CVS and they don't have it. And you can see it in your mind's eye on your counter and you're like, why don't I just bring it?

I was going to bring it. Yeah, exactly. This is interesting. I think there's a nature between how we are socialized in Western society, men and women, just the difference between a wallet and a purse. Like men sort of just bring like what is the bare minimum that is necessary in order to function out in the world. And then just like, no, we got to be prepared for.

for anything. Because kids will come to me. I don't know how it's for you guys. When they want to play, they come to dad. When they need to be taken care of, they go straight to the bird. They're like, uh, dad doesn't know what that is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you have a band-aid? Yeah. Do you have ointment? Yeah. Even me, I was like, hey, bird, you got any lotion in your husband? Who's very? Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like, it's lotion on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Uh, all right. Most likely to make us late.

Oh, come on. Is there something stronger than me? Is there like a neon green? This is a unanimous. Also, it's funny because it's like, like. Oh, no. Is it tied to the last one though? Like, I, like, if it's inferred even the most, like, gently that, that, like, we need to be moving.

Like, which I wouldn't, which I never do. You don't. You're very good about that. But if it's sort of like, um, like. What time would we have to be there? Yeah, that's as bad as it ever gets. What time is supposed to be there? And then she's like, I'm almost.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, it's so low when there wasn't any baggage even in the comment. Mandy has to step out on the front porch. Are you sitting in the car? Yeah. Oh, you're sitting in the car. No, I get it.

I'll be with you momentarily. That is 100% happening. And I'm like, I'm down to be late. I do not care. No, but I'll be in the car. He can. But I am right. I get it cooled off.

No, it's like the bluey episode where they go to the pool. Have you guys seen this? I have not. Never mind. Yeah, you wouldn't. Tell them. Young children. where they don't have the sunscreen because mom's not there or dad's there?

Yeah, because boring things are important too. That's the moral of the lesson. So they all rush to the pool because mom's not quite ready yet. And she's like, grab the pool stuff. And do they grab the pool stuff? Of course not. No, no, no. No.

So they have nothing. They don't have floaties. They don't have anything. No sunscreen. So they're just sitting there moping until mom shows up with all the stuff. And then the lesson has learned that boring stuff is important too. Yeah. Most likely to make friends with a stranger.

Oh. I actually think recently You think so? I mean, maybe more yellow. Come on. I think it's more you now. It's more me. It's more me.

You think so? You don't think so? You know what? Like, I have, I like people and I like going up and meeting people. But you know, what's also interesting, sometimes because people will know who I am before, I know who they are,

I feel like I've become more reticent. recently because I feel like I'm on unequal ground. Does that make sense? They're acting like we're already friends? Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of those things where I, like, even in the vineyard, you know, you would go to a party.

The vineyard was different, though. And I would be like, you need to. That was the black boozy people feeling brown. You know, the best part about all of this is like when black people see us and they're like, oh my God, da-da-da. And then there's like white people who are like, You know what? And then you can see them with her because,

no, especially if it's us together, because white people have no idea who I am. Because like my, you know, but my, that is, no, they don't. They don't. No, no, no, no, no.

No, no. You know who I am. But, like, when we were in Chicago, Chicago was different. It was like, I was like, oh, wow, this is a whole different world for me. Because it's Chicago. It's like, black people central.

And it's black women's, me and black women, we're the same. And so, you know, they know who I am. They love your podcast. You know, it's like, hey girl. You know, they're so cute. They're like, I know who you are, girl, and I love you, you know. And I'm like, thank you, girl.

And there's always the white lady who's like, who, ma'am, who are you? And it's just, oh. But see, that's also the interesting thing too, because Varan, similar to what you were saying, once upon a time, Sol is that, like, how you kind of like really enjoy soaking it up. Yeah. I'm sort of like a moving target now.

Yeah. Because like, if I stay in motion, they can't, like, sort of trap me down. Yeah. But the bird will stop in the heart heartbeat like, hey girl, hey. And then like there's a conglomeration. And I was like, I got to keep moving. Yeah, yeah.

Otherwise, it kind of became, you, I'm, am I? No, I was just thinking, it doesn't matter what I was thinking. It does. This is what you're here for. No, because, okay, you're going to be bad. I don't care. But I was thinking, I was like, if that is true, then why did we have to stay at the hotel we stayed in?

We could have stayed at a different hotel that had, that was a little bit more boochy. Tell them about the hotel. There would have been many people in it. So we say to this hotel. And it was very, very, very, it was in Chicago. And I'm not going to say the name of the hotel because I have points there. We heard we didn't hear the, I should have asked you off camera that name. You, go ahead.

Because I don't want anybody to take my points away. Yeah, don't take a point. They don't revoke points. Cut to, I've got longer my silver, I've worked hard for my silver. Tell them, tell them our response is to the hotel. Well, the thing was, it was, okay, you know what you're, you know what you're getting into with certain hotels. And that's why they have. That's why they have.

rating system. That's why they have four, five, star, right? And my whole thing was, if we stay in a hotel that's not as busy and it's not as accessible, then we all win, right? Yeah. So you won't have a busy lobby. We'll have our privacy, right? And I can stay in a place that's a little bit more, you know, that, I mean, listen, the bathroom was a trapezoid. No, no, no, no, no. Like, if your bathroom is a trapezoid, I'm not staying here. I'm in. I can't. Like, you know what I mean? No.

You couldn't afford an architect. Come on. Like, why I got to say. The architect designed a trapezoid. But that's stupid. That's not an architect. You just had a planner. I need an architect.

No, no, yeah. You need like, and I need a lot. And I need slippers. And if I go to a hotel and you don't have robe and slippers, then that's not. That's not a hotel. That's a race station. You know, I've never even thought of a motel. That's a motel.

I've never thought they were just novelty things you looked at. Considered that before. And that is why. Somebody loved their rope and slippers. I wish that you would consider. The reason why we stayed in the hotel that we stayed in because my buddy's 50th birthday party and he got a block of rooms from there

and I wanted to be close to where everybody was going there. Exactly. Fair enough. There you go. Fair enough. That's not the way to bird works. But did you switch hotels or did you stay there? She stayed in Chicago longer

because she had an event for the NWACP in which she moved into the four seasons. We can say that out loud because she likes it. Good. You know what? It's not often that we all travel away from like our families and stuff. I feel like you are allowed to go and like have a luxury experience.

I want the bird to be comfortable to. In this situation, I wanted to be close to the 50th birthday party. But next time, I'm not going to do it again. It's just you got to have what you mean. You were very, you were upset with me. You were like, I just wish you could be comfortable anywhere. You walked into the hotel. You walked into the hotel and you're like, oh.

Nope. Okay. Oh. Oh. Oh. I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with you? I mean it was. Oh, I can't even.

Yeah. I hear you. I'm with you. I'm with you. Carpet weird to be out in hotel. Yeah. In any hotel. Yeah, yeah.

So it's like that's where the slippers come in. No, no. But the carpet and hotels. A dark carpet? I'm like, what are you? You don't go back for the number. No, no. That's why you need those slippers.

Like, I'm not. Yes. I'm like, you have a dark carpet. I know what you're trying to hide. Yeah. Sin. Like casino. Iniquity.

Yeah. Christopher Joseph. What's the next question? Well, let's get into some of these, some of these more relationship-based questions. Okay, let's do it. What was, Rach, and I have renewed our couples. Yeah, the game's over.

That's the fun. That's fun. That's fun. That's fun. The Taylor, Rachel, and you won. You won the game. Great. Okay, great.

You guys run. Yeah. Great. You're winners. Rach and I have recently renewed our couples therapy. Okay. Which is going great. in all of the most painful ways.

Yeah. And this is what we were talking about earlier. This is a side note. We had couples therapy in different countries. We zoomed with our couples therapist, me and Canada, Rachel in California, best session we have ever had. Wow. They usually say don't have tough conversations unless you can look each other in the eye.

Turns out that's really a problem for Rachel and I. Like our couples, our couples therapist is like, you know, you two should do. it in the car where you're both looking straight ahead and you can keep like a little bit of a gap. That's interesting. No, somebody said that to us. Do you remember the same thing? Have tough conversations in the car because it's... No, but she...

We're sitting next to each other though. They're talking about being in separate... Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, if you're sitting in the car, like you said, like you can kind of... But I will recommend to do it internationally because it was fantastic. If the car works, that's going to go real honest. May I ask, is there, the distance seem to sort of foster an openness that's harder to do when you're in the same space? I think for the sharing part, obviously if you're like repairing something or you've got to be like eye to eye.

But if there's some hard things that you're just kind of like been holding on to or whatever, for us it was just easier to just share it. Not being next to each other. Yeah. And there's also like there's this like when I don't know, for me at least, when I'm out of town, it's like I have all these plans to be a better person upon arrival back at home. I'm like, I'm going to talk to my parents more. I'm going to see this friend. I haven't seen a long time. Mandy and I are going to like go on all these dates. We're not going to need to sleep. And like that doesn't, and then I get home and it's like back into all the same old habits.

And so like if there is like a level of commitment when you're apart. I think it's also that thing where a little bit of distance allows you to actually see more clearly sometimes. I think both both yourself and your partner. So I think that was also like what it was too. It reminded us back. We did one session of couples therapy before we got married. And the couples therapist essentially asked us this question that's on our sheet here. What's the biggest thing you are nervous about being married to another person?

Ooh. And Rachel, Rachel's response was, I don't even remember. Losing my identity. Oh, kind of like losing myself. And mine was... Mine was clutter. And I was like moving in with a messy-ass person. That's what I'm worried about.

So if we can talk to this woman while we're here... About a minute. We have children. Hang on. Hang on. Clutter-wise, that's over. We need a app. They are the ultimate clutter.

Sort of change your relationship to clutter, but Sully, before the children came, one of Ryan's many nicknames in addendum to the bird is the spreader. Because it just, I thought this space was for me, and now it's not. It's like, why is all of your stuff? I can't find my stuff because your stuff is all here. Me going away to Vancouver every seven days for 10 days. To organize your space just the way that you want it's right?

Yeah, all the hotel room is so nice. But then I come home and find all the little new hidden pieces of clutter that have arrived. Oh, I didn't know we needed that one of, I didn't know we needed four of those. Oh, look at that. Thanks, Ambasan. I'm taking this very personally for you on your behalf. I've already talked about this. But what was the biggest thing you were nervous about when you were getting married maybe personally or emotionally or relationally?

Or maybe there weren't any worries? I wasn't worried. I, I, I, second rodeo. Second rodeo. You knew what you wanted. She knew what she wanted. It couldn't have been worse than the first time. So I was like, I am not effing worried about it.

Yeah, listen. You're killing you, bro. He had like, like, lop over the bar. It was so low, truly. He just, like, rolled over the bar. I was like, you're good. You're good. You remember my birthday.

You're the best husband ever. Kind of, pretty much. Not far from the truth. So I wasn't like the minute that I met Taylor, I very quickly knew I was like, this is the father of my children. This is my person. This is who I went through all of this other crap to find. So it was like I truly wasn't worried about anything.

Being good enough for him. That was probably the only thing. Seriously, like making sure that I was the best version of myself to deserve you. You nailed that. Oh, my. Oh my gosh They love it you It's so cute

It's not It's so sweet It's so sweet This is a Kind of an indirect answer to the question But I remember When we Well I'll start with this

I saw the song right Last night His name's Bill Callahan Who's so great And he has this song Called Pigeons And in one of his In that song

He's a limo driver Driving newlyweds In the back seat And the newlyweds At one point in the song Ask him like You have any advice for us newlyweds because they saw a ring on his finger.

And he says, when you're dating, you are the only two people in the world. And when you get married, you marry the entire world. And it was really profound. He extrapolates in a really cool way. But just, I think that gets to what my nerves were when we were getting serious because I was used to just live sleeping in the back of a van and just like being like this guy that didn't really know what I was doing with. in the next few months just with music and stuff.

And so I remember being like, I'm not a grown-up. And that's not how I roll. I don't know how to be a responsible partner. Not in any like, I don't mean with like cheating or anything like that. Like that was like all in and that was all abundantly clear. But it was more just like, I don't know the things I don't know. And I'm worried about that. I just want to show up for you as an adult.

And I just feel like this like overgrown child because of what my job is. Yeah. Had you had no long-term relationship prior to Amanda Lee? Like three months, six months. Nothing ever like it was like the idea of living with someone was immediately horrifying and impossible. And then with her, it wasn't worried. I was horrified. And but with her it was immediate like, oh yeah, we're going to live together.

And that's like all of those fears and stressors were totally. gone. Like, I want to do that yesterday. Like, it was not... Man said the same thing. Like, because your correspondence was mostly over phone or text or when we first met. When you first met. And you're like, yeah, and you're like, I love this guy. Oh, yeah, before we kissed. We hadn't even kissed each other. And I was like, I am in love. That's Sastafish. The Plains of Canada really bring out the romance, you know. That's awesome. So, the clutter thing is funny because I can vibe on that. But I think the unique thing about the bird and I.

And I think you may agree with this, but we don't always agree. We have a lot of history. And that history is also, it's a good thing in terms of like how well we know each other and we've been a part of each other's lives since we started adulthood. But it also means that there is a lot of baggage and a lot of things to unpack as well. I think probably both of us to a certain extent are like, have we done too much? to get over to move forward. Because I think that was probably, I mean, by the time I proposed,

I was like, I'm good. Like I know who I want to be with, et cetera. And I think because the dude historically in this traditional heteronormative thing is the one who's going to be making that decision to say, will you accept me as that? I think it may have taken Rye even a little bit longer to sort of be like, you remember when we did, you remember what that happened. And so like to get to a point,

a place where you can remember something without reliving something. That's interesting. Yeah. Is a big one. I don't know what your answer is, but that's probably. Yeah. I mean, it's taking me a long time to understand that I'm the type of person that doesn't get comfortable until way into a thing, right?

Like, I have a 15-year-old and it's true. It just happened on Marcus' Ben-in-year. I'm telling you, 20 years in, we're killing it. I have a 15-year-old and a 10-year-old, and now I want children. Like, now I'm like, you know what? what would be great. I know how to do that. And he's like, have you been here? I was like, yes.

But I, you know, I'm, I'm He's been talking about it for episodes. No, it's true, though. I get that. No, but like, I got to I got to Stanford for two years or maybe like 18 months. No, not three or four. But like the first. Yeah, it was like, why didn't I go to Harvard? I made it a

mistake. This is ridiculous. And who who chooses Stanford over Harvard? What kind of idiot? And meanwhile, I'm missing the whole thing. Cut to senior year, I'm sitting there graduating. I don't want to leave this wonderful place. Who leaves this place? You know what I mean? Like, at every turn, I'm like a good 18 to 24 months behind my decision. So I think, but I didn't realize that about myself until very recently. She is somebody who is capable of making a decision and then torturing myself over the decision. I'll make a decision.

I torture myself to make the decision. I make the decision. And I make the decision. And then I torture myself over the decision. Yeah. You know, and I thought that it was about the decision itself. And it's taken me after we got married is when I realized, oh, this is a me thing. And it's not an indication of the decision. I'm going to do this. If the decision is, no, again, if I go to McDonald's and I'm like, okay, don't go to McDonald's.

I go to McDonald's three times, like, like once every four years. Okay. So this is really important. It is filet fish. Fila fish. Fila fish. Oh, my God. Do I get the chicken nuggets?

Oh, my God. I just fell in love with you. So, like, practice you know this. Christ in a basket. Get the filet fish. Get both. Get them all. Again, I would never have thought that until just,

not that I go to my mouth. But you know what I mean? Like, I just, every time. Not that I have to be ashamed of going to go out. I'm just saying, you know what I mean? Like, so I've discovered about myself. And so I think all of the concerns that I had and the worries were just about what if I'm making the wrong choice?

What if I'm making the wrong decision? What if this is not what I'm supposed to do? I'm not like, you know, what the face of it all. Sterling has steam coming out of his age. But it was never, I never thought that he's got to get up and walk it off. This has been a really great session. This has been a really great session. I will say, and not even in my defense, I never felt like he was someone that was not going

to be a wonderful. spouse, it was always very much like, is, you know, is fate? Is this the right thing to do? If I made the right decision? What if I messed this whole thing up? What if I mess him up? What if I mess me up? What if, you know, it was that versus, you know, is he going to be a good spouse? It's throwing us to hijack. If you're watching us a day early on Hulu, you'll see, you'll see behind us photos from our wedding day. Each of us on the day that we were wet. Is there a memory or an image that stands out most to you guys from your wedding day? You should go first.

Yeah, yeah, you guys. For me, it was how emotional Chris got during the vows. It was really sweet. We're on the stage. I had, of course, you know, memorized them but also had a key card. I was, like, reading it. And I'm like, I'm, like, performing them, you know? Just because I was on a.

stage and all this kind of stuff, but he was like really feeling, you know. What did you say about Rachel? Nothing written down. Where you'll begin? No, it was really, that was really sweet. Yeah, I mean, that's my, I mean, of all like the images that are pressed into my head is, is Rachel walking down the aisle towards me. Totally. And just like falling apart.

Totally. Also wearing a dress. Yeah, as we see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And your kilt. My killed, yeah.

You guys look great. You guys look so great. What about you guys over there? What's your memory? I mean, it's not dissimilar. I remember vividly being like, I'm not going to be able to say these vows. I think I was like whispering them in order just to like get them out because if anything above that would have just like broken me open.

I was already kind of a wreck. Yeah, I remember we were at our house. We got married at our house. It was like very special. It was small, just a few people there. and just like I walked out of my bedroom and just like walked to where we covered our pool

and so everybody was sitting on the pool and I walked in water. Oh, yeah. Just like Jesus. That's right. That was our theme for the one. Was it Mandy is Jesus? Yeah.

It was that moment and then the moment you guys were there for this part. but when my dad walked on stage and like with his cane really slow, like a scene out of Willie Wonka and everyone's like, what's this old man you're going to sing? And then he throws the cane, grabs his mic stand and goes in a sex machine by James Brown.

And the dance war went from empty to completely jammed. A beast. It was incredible. That was his essence. Yeah. Yeah. That was. So I'm curious.

So good. So we eloped. But then we also had another ceremony like 14 months later, something like that. So which one sticks out? Which one you want to talk about? Because I may pick the other one if you pick one. I think the first one, the first one was also at a house. It was at our best friend's house.

And I guess I just remember your steadfastness. Steadfastness. Like, you know, you were so like. Ten toes down, bro. You were. And it was a wonderful, it was a wonderful. And I was like, we are getting married in. enough like a living room.

Like, are you, you're good with, and you were just like, here, Vegas, I don't care. And I was like, that is the sweetest thing anyone's ever done for me. Solid, solid as a rock, man. I think, so I'm going to pick the second one because Rye had this, I think I've mentioned this to you guys, she had this wonderful plan for this beautiful, long, like, oak table, whatever it was. And it was like an ode to the first Thanksgiving where everybody was going to sit around

and have this reception. And right, we do our couples dance, right? Love, love, love. Donnie Hathaway. And Ryan's like, I need some turns, man. You got to put on the show. You're an actor, let's go. Because I was just, you know, being sweet.

Yeah, I was like, we're not going to sway. Come on. I was like, I want some spin. Give me something. She also said that. We had dance lessons. Look at you. Well, see, you guys are, you guys from group.

Prepared. She also told me she said, you should memorize your vows. She said, you need you to be off book or whatnot. And I was like, all right, I'll be off book. And then this broad comes up with like a whole notebook. And I was like, what's going on? This is the beginning of marriage.

But as we were, as I was doing the last dip on Love, Love, Love, and we were about to go sit down at the table, God was overwhelmed with tears and decided to cry all down. It felt like somebody had pulled like a slide back and just watered just started to pull. It wasn't like rain. Stayless. The caterers had to be.

Zero to 60. Zero to 100. The caterers had to grab all the food off the table, run into, like, her parents had this 14,000 square foot home where we got married in the backup. So we go into the downstairs of the house and it becomes like one of the dopest house parties. It was.

It did become a house party. And they were just like serving the China coming. It was, and yeah. I still, we still have friends to come up. But then the next morning, I saw the, like, carnage of my table. It was just like. And the people... And I was holding me up.

I was like that with my day. The people loved it. There's also, I remember when I walked down the aisle, I said, I'm going to wear sunglasses. I'm not going to tell Ryan because if I told Ryan, she's not going to let me wear my sunglasses. But then when I get up there, I'm going to take my sunglasses off so she doesn't know that I've worn sunglasses. And everybody told on you. Well, I figured they find out later. Listen, Brian, I did you know.

Lash. Sterling is going to wear sunglasses. Everybody. So tell us what you want us to do. Same for you got me. When I saw the bird come down, bro. It's magical. Like, you robbing yourself of a special moment

if you see them in the dress beforehand. Right? Because, like, you're saving it for that moment. And to see, oh, you're talking about, like, perfection? And the arms were just like, clack, clack, clack, clack. What's the next? This is a fun question for this segment. Which one of you would survive longer in the zombie apocalypse?

Oh, this is a trigger for Ryan, I feel like. I feel like we've talked about this before at a dinner. We have. Yeah. Zombies are a thing. Zombies are definitely my thing because I know that I wouldn't survive. Like the minute the news was like, hey, zombie, I'm just going to just come and combust. Same. It's out. I'm out. I'm out. I'm out. I don't want to try to survive? No. I don't want to be around. No. I don't want to be around.

Yeah. Because eventually it gets you. So what? I'm just going to like try to outrun it until it's like you're in a corner and you're like, well, here's the thing. I feel like I'd be more help. in the spirit realm anyway. So like, let's just, like, eliminate. And then I can, like, become, like, you know, the guide, the ghost that haunts you or helps you. I could, I'd probably try to, like, talk it out with the zombies and just get my head ripped off. Can we just, like, rubble and then, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Your humanity is somewhere. Somewhere your humanity isn't. The question about zombies. Like, are they dead and just reanimated? And loving it. Is your soul just in some liminal space? Like, I can't move on. Are they somewhere in there?

Yeah. Like, are the undead, I believe. Wow, that's really sucks that's going down. Like, I don't, like, I have too many questions about it and I don't want to find out the hard way. Are you, like, your character on Paradise? You're going to just, you're going to figure out. You have some experience at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Of a post. If anybody could talk a zombie down, it's going to be him. Yeah. You know, you guys know this. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I don't really know.

I don't know. I know. I love the whole group. They're eating everybody. And they're like, oh, that old stroll. I'll keep you. I know you. They're like ripping me apart.

And he's just like, guys, I don't know why you guys are so upset with these zombies. They're really misunderstood. Yeah, he's got a golden glove in one hand and emby in the other. And he's like, right, right, right, and smash. And have you tried flesh? I mean, you know, don't knock until you try it. A little seasoning on it, you know. And everyone else is like, what?

Everyone else is like, what? I think I find a way. You would definitely find a way. Yeah, life finds a way. This one is already ascended to heaven. Yeah. Has anybody learned anything from watching the marriages on This Is Us? What were the big takeaways from, I mean,

opening a beer. Alcohol will get you through. Well, Jack Pearson in the earth. He figured it out. And what do you think, this is a follow-up question, if this is kind of easier, what do you think makes someone continue choosing their partner after 10, 8, 20, 30 years?

That's a really good question. That is a good question. In terms of learning things, like I feel like, for the most part, the couples on the show fought fair. And by fighting fair, I mean, like they weren't calling each other out of their names. You know what I'm saying?

Because like there's something that can happen. Like if you call me something that's like not Sterling or something, I was like, I can stop listening. Yeah, yeah. Because like, no, it's not my name. Why are you talking to me like that? Like I feel like on this is us, they spoke to each other. Even when they were in heated disagreements, like it was like,

this is the problem that I'm having. Because sometimes you get sidetracked and like tone can become an issue and you're like, why are you talking to me that way? Like they stayed on track. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? like the central argument never ceased to be the central, whereas in life sometimes, like, something else can happen in the midst of the argument and you get pissed off about that

other thing besides the thing that you were originally addressing. So I think we have learned Ryan and I to fight fair, right? And it's fights don't happen that much anymore. And earlier in our relationship, because we are areas in Leo, they were combustible. We had a lot of fire in the house. And over time, like, I guess we sort of just realized, like, oh, that didn't get us where we wanted to go, did it? Like, I think, I think, I think, right, and even probably me, on occasion, too, were guilty of escalating instead of just trying to be like, all right, wait, we still love each other,

and we need to, like, figure this thing out, right? But sometimes it just felt good to have bombast. Sure. If I could. To assert, I think... When we were much younger. Okay. Because, you know, again, we've known each other since I don't know what she's in.

When we were much younger, I do think I, I think there was an enjoyment of pushing each other's buttons. Sure. And seeing how we can enjoy. Make sure you're watching us a day early on Hulu for all of the facial expressions. But the fact that you say enjoyment, to me also implies that there was like a security there. Like we're safe. We love each other so much that like we can do this and not get fearful about it.

I think that if I give myself any amount of credit for anything and I don't want to overstate this or whatnot, I think there's something about Rye that knew that like to a certain extent. And then at a certain point I felt like I might be taken for granted a little bit is that like you could say or do anything and he's not going anywhere. But I also wanted to let her know that I was. wasn't going anywhere. Right.

But then at a certain point, I was like, but you gotta stop talking like this. That's a healthy boundary. Yeah. That's setting a healthy boundary. And again, when you don't have, I mean, this is all fun, but neither one of us had language. We didn't know a boundary. I didn't know with that.

Sure. You know, a lot of what we, is common sort of conversation now about therapy and all of those things, that wasn't necessarily something that we. had access to when we were 18, 19, 20, even grad school. Like, we were in grad school and they were just like- Not a place for romance to flourish. Like, use all of that in your work. Like, yeah, like, call them that, say that, do that, sure.

Roll around in that dirt, you know. That was kind of the whole point for three years was our job to do that, you know? Or, and it was presented to us like, this is the only way that you can access your true potential as an artist is to go in the dark. I try to do it differently. You did it.

They tell you, they tell you, you got to be miserable to be an artist. That's what they tell you. I don't believe it anymore. I don't believe it anymore either. No, I really, but it's again, it's like you have, I think it takes a lot of maturity and wisdom and understand and meeting people who aren't miserable. And not to say that everybody in grad school was miserable, but everybody in grad school was miserable. You know, our teachers were kind of crumudgeonly. Like, it wasn't a play.

They were. I mean, you wouldn't necessarily say that any of them were particularly joyful or spry people, you know, they were. everybody had a bit of a dark cloud. Jim Calder. Oh, okay. Yeah, I lied. Jim Calder. But he was our games teacher.

He was the clown. Yeah. Yeah, but Dan Cortal was amazing. Okay, but the point is, is that in general? But Dan Coral was the one who did say, the bigger the person, the bigger the artist. And he was the only person that gave me,

personally, a glimmer into you can be all of the things. It doesn't just have to have the darkness and embracing the darkness to lead you through your. your artistic life. Yeah. And it also tracks for that to be necessary when you are in your earlier 20s. Like not dissimilar from watching like our five-year-olds like need to see how far he can

take in to be like that's actually not cool. But like I'm glad you now know the feeling or know what like how to play around in that. But yeah, like it's funny. You say like you don't have to be miserable to be an artist, but maybe you have to be in order to be an artist, or I'm sorry, maybe to be a 20-something year old artist you have to be miserable. in order just to know what it all feels like. And then you actually get pretty good at it. And you're like, I actually don't have to go there.

But I've been there. Yeah. You have to be open to all emotions, but you don't necessarily have to hold on to them. Right. Right. What have you learned from watching the couples on this as us in terms of your own?

Well, Randall and Beth. Yeah. I mean, I just loved watching them. I mean, speaking of Fighting Fair, I think the thing that stands out to me the most is how they would have that comprehensive about like what's the worst that could happen or to that degree, right? Worst case scenario. I love that they did that out loud because I think a lot of us do that in our heads and we don't

verbalize it because it's either fearful or unsafe or you don't want your partner to think you're spinning out or what if you say it and it comes true or like there's all these like there's a lot of anxiety I think around sharing like your catastrophizing thoughts when you get attached to them and how dispelling and how cathartic it was just to see that, live out in action, in a safe place. And so that was like what really stuck out to me. And I think it gives other people permission, too, to be like, and I actually do it with my kids, too. I'm like, even with Bear this morning, I'm like, what's the worst that could happen? Let's go there.

And I was thinking about Beth and Randall. And I'm like, well, let's just go there together. And then if that's the worst that could happen, let's make a plan. That's really good. And then we came back from it, you know, and he's. He's like, oh, he's like, if I have a plan, then it's not so scary. There's something about saying it out loud that also demystifies to a certain extent. Like when it remains unspoken, fear is so highly attached to it.

And actually, when you put it out loud and be like, okay, maybe it's that, you know, because resistance often allows for something to persist in a way. I love that. I think you guys, Kate and Toby, I still have not watched any of the episodes where you guys break up. And I was, y'all were my, y'all were mine. Y'all, I mean, I know everybody, the R&B of it all. Yeah, that's great. No, because it's just the way that they got together.

And I really did feel like of all the couples, they, to me, you guys were the the soulmates of it all. Like, I don't, I don't, and maybe that wasn't the point of it, but for me, you guys were. And I'm almost, I was getting choked. Because I just loved you guys so much and everything you guys went through. And so for me, when you talk about what keeps you choosing and, It's kind of both because it's like there's that scene where you say, I still love you.

And you've had to let her go. She's moved on. And I remember thinking, I don't ever want to do that. Like, I don't ever want to stay in there and, you know, 20, 30 years from now. And Sterling's married to Svetlana or whoever. It's always Svetlana. That's all right. You're not to say that.

She's not a real person. But, you know. There's our new catchphrase. Take us out. That ho is in. But I never wanted that to be the case where I had to sit there and be like, I lost the love of my life. Yeah.

Because the way you did, your performance in that scene was so visceral to me that I was like, that's why I'm going to have to choose this. Yeah. Because I know that at the end of the day, there's not going to be another choice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there's some, there's, we had, again, this last couple's therapy session,

we had was really kind of groundbreaking, ironically, the international session that we had in a lot of ways that these, the marriages on This Is Us, you know, involved a lot of people turning towards each other, being honest, but it involved people create, instead of asking your partner to give you more of something, I should be creating an environment, where they are able to do that. So that makes sense? Like if I'm not getting something for my partner, maybe it's not their fault.

Maybe it's because I have not created a scenario or a situation or a feeling where they feel comfortable behaving in that way. And one of the things, there's a question in couples therapy that has always kind of haunted me, which is, what does your partner provide you that you cannot pay someone to provide for you? And it's a really kind of existential question, right?

Like even when it comes down to child care or companionship or intimacy or whatever it is. And our last couple's therapy session was, I was having an existential crisis. I'm like, what are we doing? What are we doing? Why are we married? And I was a bit confronting. I was like, tell me, do you haven't answered that question? I don't have an answer to that question.

Like we were at a real low point. Of course I do, because I'm prepared. Yeah. But you didn't have an answer to that question when we were in the session. Okay, correct. Right? Because I was trying to, yeah, I was trying to drop in and be like, no, let's not say a prepared answer.

Let's like. Yeah. And it was ironic because our therapist said, gave me the answer that was like groundbreaking for me, where she said, she said, oh, because you didn't know how to say to Rachel that she, um, triggers all of your most foundational traumas while still being able to love you through them. Oh, never mind, I'm good.

Okay. It's that. That one. That thing. See next week. It's like, yeah, I didn't know how to say that. I think that's only something that you discover, I think if you're in like a long-term relationship.

And you're doing the work. And you're doing the work. Yeah. Because that's not something that I think maybe everyone experienced. That's not entry-level stuff. That's not entry-level stuff, yeah. Like, that's, that's, we've been in it for a long time. You guys, you're talking about your history.

Like, there's a lot, there's a lot of layers and a lot of comings and goings. And, you know. And there's all the cliche things about, you know, you marry your father or you marry your mother or you, you know, there's all of these like edible things. And what it actually is for us that we've discovered is that we've, we sought each other out because there was something familiar in it. But we both activate in each other. kind of the worst sides of ourselves. But then... But also the best.

Look, it's both. I'm coming around to it. I'm coming around to it. Wait for it. I'm with you. I'm coming around to it. And that activation in a loving relationship provides us with the opportunity

to heal those parts of ourselves. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And that's what I saw a lot of in the show. Yeah. You know, is two people presenting something that is challenging for them.

and bouncing it off of their partner and being like, how can you help me through this? How can you help me help myself? Yes. Right, right, right, right. Can I say something else about that, though, too? No, we're all out of time.

Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming. Thank you. One final thought on that. But in terms of, you know, I think the other thing that gets, like we can get caught up I only speak for us is getting attached to a certain version of our person and holding up

a reflection of maybe a different person or a different version of that person in front of us and being like, but wait, that's who I thought you wait, what a bit? But really, we're all evolving. We're all changing. So how can we love and appreciate the person we chose? 16 years ago, while also leaving space for and being able to see the person in front of us who's changing before our eyes and leave space for them to do that

and not try to make them fit into something that makes us more comfortable. So that, I think, is like where we are in our evolution is like realizing that, I mean, with kids, you're going to change. Like, holy cow. Talk about triggering, you know, childhood. things, traumas. We're confronted with it every day.

And knowing that that's part of the work we're doing here is we're here to heal. We're here to heal through them. We can reparent ourselves through the experiences we provide our kids and give that back to ourselves. And then how does that change us and how can we take that back to our relationship, our place of home?

Yeah. That we want to continue to create together. It's beautiful. Well said. That was just looking at something on IG, they were talking about three different phases of relationships between like the honeymoon and then this part that I think everybody's in and then what they call the twilight once the, if you have kids, what have you in a traditional setting and the kids are gone and you're there. And the honeymoon is, like you're saying, three, six months or whatnot, so you never really had even an opportunity to know like what things happen once that sort of infatuation phase wears out, right? And I think what you're saying, Rage, is they're like, oh, man, how come this didn't last longer?

How come, like, shouldn't we still be in this or whatnot? And you know, realistically, that can't last forever. But then there's a part of you that has to mourn what was and sort of be present to what is and love the person in front of you. You know what I'm saying? And that's some people, you give up. Brian and I have been in different places where we be like,

should we give up? Nah, I'm going to give up. And then, like, maybe we should give up. And Ryan be like, no, I'm not going to give up. But, like, it didn't happen at the same time. Right. Hallelujah. You know what I'm saying?

To that extent because that, it is tough. It's like you used to be like this. And if you spend all this time talking about you should have, what a good, then you stop missing like what's what do we do right here? Yeah. Yeah. I also feel like it love the kind of love that we're talking about. It feels a lot like our relationship to like health or or illness or something where

when you're laid out, you're laid out. you have that feeling of like, I'm never going to take my healthy body for granted again. Yeah. And, and, but then when it's back, you're like, let's go get drunk and like, not sleep and like, fuck around.

And, and you don't take care of yourself. I mean, you know, or whatever your version of that is. And so sometimes it's so easy to be like, like, you know, your question of like, what do they do for you that you couldn't pay someone to do? And it's wild that like the, the powers and the confidence and the sense of self that you have just from being loved in a way that you're not acknowledging is such a profound part of who I imagine we all are. And it's like,

and when it's at all in the periphery, it's so easy to lose side of it. But the reality is like, oh, like, I feel confident in a conversation because she loves me, even if she's not there. I feel proud of what I do in life because she loves me, even if she loves me, even if she's not there. I feel proud of what I do in life because she loves me even if she's not in the room like it all stems back from that um and it's so it's like unless like my shoulders are being shaken it's sometimes really hard to acknowledge yeah that's beautiful you guys want to finish these sentences for me okay the secret to a happy marriage is there is no secret it's like the noodle sauce in in you know kung fu what is it's the panda the panda Is it a Kungu Panda?

It's just like the noodles. It's just like, it's literally. Wait, more. I'll say more. No, because he's like, the secret to the, the secret is there is no secret. It's just, he shows up every day and he makes the noodles. And he puts love into the noodles and he puts whatever he puts in the noodles. And everybody thinks they're so delicious and that there's a secret.

But there really is no secret other than every day he makes the noodles. I knew we were going to get Kung Fu Panda. Yeah. Well, I love that. I love that. That's good, Bert. That goes back to what you were saying about like that phrase that we've all heard a lot of do the work. Because whenever I hear that, I'm always like, wait, what's the work is.

Everyone says that and I don't know what it is. We're not doing it. There was homework. And the reality is because there, like that, of course there's work. But what that is for each couple is its own thing. And like what works, that work is for you guys and for you guys and for us are not going to line up. I think a large part of, well, as you, as you, as you. As you're speaking that out loud, the first thing that I thought about in terms of work is the work of forgiveness.

And I feel like no relationship, whether it is romantic or platonic, can exist without forgiveness. Because every once in a while, people are going to do things that trigger you that make you upset or frustrated or whatnot. And like how quickly you can do it. Really sort of like does speak to the health of the relationship of whatever nature we're talking about. Because I can tell you, there are times earlier in our relationship where a few days, would go by, now where a few hours go by. And so we both sort of like, all right, we don't have to hold on. Our egos are not so fragile or whatnot that we can lay that down in front of you and be like,

listen, I want to be on the other side of this thing. So like, I forgive you. I hope you forgive me. Like, I apologize. That sort of thing is, I think, really, I look forward to the opportunities. And I mean that in a holistic sense because I don't actually like. the feeling of being angry or frustrated or being angry, her being angry or frustrated with me. But I do enjoy what repair feels like when it is successful.

Yes. You know what I'm saying? Like it's, it is like, oh, yeah. We made it. Thank you, birds. Yes. Secret to a happy marriage is. I was not prepared for this question.

I thought it was only for the host. She already said noodles. Second noodles. Dang it, I was going to do the noodle thing. What about you, sir? I will say radical honesty. You know, just kind of, kind of, like bravery. Yeah.

Like, it takes, for me anyways, it takes a lot of, like, hoisting up the young boy or young man who has all of these doubts and fears and traumas. And to try to, like, stand in front of another person and reveal. them is scary for me. And I think in our marriage, that's the secret for me in our marriage. I like that one. I want to add a copy because I don't disagree with that. I, but I also, and it's not a but, it's an and, I want radical honesty to always be in concert with kindness.

No, no, no, no. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Some people can interpret what you said. Oh, no, no. Is it kind? Is it true? You understand what I'm saying.

Yes. Yes. And the words have to cross those three bridges before they leave your mouth. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Here, here. Okay. For me, I mean, I second, third, fourth, everything that's been said.

But mostly noodles. But mostly noodles. Kind of. Yeah, I think for me, like, it's maintaining a healthy connection to source. so that I can expand my capacity to hold the good and the bat, whatever is presented in front of me with grace. So that I have the capacity for forgiveness when it presents itself. So for me, I think that's the best thing I can do for my relationship with my husband and with my kids,

whatever that means for anyone else, you know, just. But whatever that tap into the source of love, that helps you to be the best version of yourself is what I would say. And also a strong community. A strong if I can do too. I think having couples you can look up to you want to emulate is so important. Just seeing our friends, we have just such wonderful friends. And just seeing them, you know, if we're having a tough time, like spending time with our probably like,

oh yeah, that's what, okay. We can, okay. To that point, Rachel, what you said? Like having strong couples, like everyone, you can talk to a single friend. and then you'd be like, you know what, I'm okay. Yeah, I got it. I got to go. It's okay.

Never mind. I'll ask you about the football game. You know what I'm saying? Something else. Yeah, the couples have some skin in the game. All right, last one. After 30 years together, I hope my partner and I still knock boots. Knock boots.

I know. I know. I mean, that is so unappropriate. That's on brand for Sterling. That's on brand for Sterling, though. And I was like, why do you have to use such a, I mean, do you realize that these phrases are archaic? Like, the phrases that we grew up with, like, I'm old school. No, I know, but I have to play the song for you.

Because I was like, this is the song. She's like, Sterling, take off the boots. It's not true. It's like, you know, it's ached. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're hurting my feet.

No. They're really knocking. Come on, come on. Come on. Come on. Like, we could upgrade the terminology so we don't sound like, boomers. I hope my wife and I still laugh. as hard with and at each other as we do.

I love that. Yeah. We, like the bird cracks me up, like nobody's business. I like to think that every once in a while I hit her with the zinger too. And we have a good time. Sometimes we're laughing at these kids because sometimes you got to laugh to keep from crying. You know what I'm saying? I feel like we've been very united in this mutual sort of like, all right, so how do we deal

with this person? Yeah. They're like going through a whole thing. And so we feel very unified in that. But even in the seriousness of it, there is still a butt ton of laughing. Yeah. Has to be. Yeah.

Right. I would absolutely agree with them. We don't always agree. But in this. Hey. Hey. Lavity. See the season one of the podcast anywhere.

Now available wherever you get your podcast. How about you, Taylor? In 30 years from now, I hope that, like, I feel like when there is a situation, you know, that just presents itself, whether it's family or friends or just life or, like, like, I feel like, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, like community, whatever, where there's a bit of like a flag going up. I can kind of be slow on the uptake of even clocking it. And Mandy's like, this is weird. That's what's happening. And I'll be like, oh, whoa, totally.

And like, and I feel like our mind meld is something I really cherish because it's like Mandy has such a clear, uh, just instinct or, or the way she's, sees things and makes sense of it in her head. It's always like such a guiding light for me of like, oh, yeah, she's, she sees the room before anybody else, definitely me. And if I can add some perspective to that in our, in our dance, in our way, it's just something that I feel like is so beautiful about our thing. And so it's like, I hope that's still there.

The idea of imagining us like as old people being like, what'd you think of those people? And like, and us kind of like getting to our, getting to. our shared space. That's sweet. I hope we're still a united front. I hope that we keep choosing each other. That word choice just keeps floating around in this conversation. I really feel like that is the key to a successful relationship.

Like, you just have to wake up every day and say, I am choosing to be with this person. And I know that life is going to throw crazy things our way. So, like, to me, that is success and that is something I look forward to. And also, like, I hope we both keep making. each other proud. Like, I'm really proud of you. I hope you're proud of me. Not like with what we're doing with our lives necessarily, although that is really cool, but just like who we are as parents, as people, as friends, as daughters, as all of that. How other people see us. Yeah. Like I want, I hope that we keep challenging each other to like and to be proud of one another with

with who we are and what we show the world around us. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's a good one too. Like it. 14 years from now, what do you hope we're still doing? besides these. I think just that we find ways to surprise and delight each other. I like that. Find new ways of doing that. Yeah. Yeah.

I hope we are still choosing adventure, choosing each other and choosing adventure. That's up, right? Yeah, that's from up. Yeah, that's from up. Is it from up? Yeah. Come and adventure with us in Martha's Vineyard. It's an adventure.

It'll be fun for you. you guys. It would be all about here of yes. Just. Yeah. August, next August. Walk down Circuit Avenue

with all the, with all of us. We love it. Oh, yeah. We don't cause any sort of to stir at all. You guys, this was a great episode.

This is a great episode. This is so fun. Bousas, thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. If anybody wants to write in and talk to us,

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Yeah. Thanks, guys. Let's move. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da da da-da-dum. That was us. That was a hate gum podcast.