That Was Us - Chat Was Us | Success

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

This week on That Was Us…we’re back with another Chat Was Us! This time, inspired by the many journeys of ambition and self-discovery in This Is Us, we’re tackling one big question: What does it really mean to be successful? From chasing dreams and career milestones to fulfillment, purpose, and legacy, Mandy, Sterling, and Chris reflect on how their definitions of success have evolved over the years. In this episode, the hosts chat about: * How their definitions of success have shifted from external achievement to personal fulfillment * The difference between being successful and feeling successful * Why our brains naturally fixate on failure and how encouragement can quiet the inner critic * The role childhood competition, sports, and early ambition played in shaping their drive * Fame versus fulfillment, and how public recognition differs from lasting happiness * The career milestones that made them feel like they had finally ""made it"" * Why longevity, meaningful work, and the respect of your peers matter more than awards * The artists and mentors who have redefined success through decades of purposeful careers * Why passion (not money) is often the clearest path toward purpose * How luck, preparation, and saying ""yes"" to opportunity all play a role in building a career * Raising children to value effort, curiosity, and joy over simply winning * The legacy they hope to leave behind and what a truly successful life looks like at the end Plus, along the way, the conversation takes a few unexpected detours into childhood summers, Slurpees and hose water, youth sports, camp counseling, terrible self-talk, and an emotional compliment game that reminds the hosts just how much they mean to one another. And a friendly reminder, you can catch new episodes of That Was Us every Monday, a day early, exclusively on Hulu. Available on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts on Tuesdays like usual! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Don’t just take our word for it – go grab one for yourself. Head to Walmart today to try a bar or stock up on 4CTs of your favorite flavors, like Blueberry Pie and Salted Peanut Butter, sold exclusively at Walmart. Check out https://Walmart.com to find a store near you! - Get 40% off select Lola Blankets products at https://Lolablankets.com by using code THATWASUS at checkout. Experience the world’s #1 blanket with Lola Blankets. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a headgum podcast. Oh, come on. Are you serious? Baby. Look at those eyebrows. It's adorable. You're adorable. You're talking about. Look at Arlene.

What up, Arlene? Hi, Arlene. Oh, mom. That's high school right there. What was that award? It's called the Headmaster's Cup for the student that most exemplifies the spirit of the institution. Of course. There you go.

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AI Cloud ERP for any size business. Welcome back to another installment of Chat Was Us. Chat, Chat, Chat. Yeah. Where we take a break from our rewatch podcast and we dive into a topic inspired by the themes of our show, This Is Us. And today's topic is a big one. You ready?

What is it? Success. Okay. Success. Oh, here we go. We're talking about ambitious. Tell them about. Achievement.

Yes, sir. Fulfillment, chasing dreams, changing dreams, and that feeling that we all have when we just get to the next thing, then we'll finally feel successful. Or will we? Or will we? This is us, explore this constantly. Kevin had fame but searched for purpose.

Randall checked every box, but was still anxious. Kate spent years redefining what success meant for her. So today we're asking, what actually makes a successful life? But first, let's do a little catch-up. How are you guys doing? How are you a little catch-up? I can talk about a little personal success. Amari Brown won kids' basketball championship.

Final score was 31 to 30. We were winning at halftime by four points. The other team came back and got up by six points. We climbed back to a tie. Mari Brown got filed on a layup. It was an N-1 hit his free throw, right? The best part of this whole game is that the coach of the other team, who I don't know.

But we had to play him once in the regular season and once during the playoffs. He's a very loud and passionate man, and he sort of chafed Brown in a way that Brown is not accustomed to being chafed. If you ever want to see something funny, watch Brown coach in the playoff game because it is...

Oh, you were coaching? Oh, yeah. So you're on like a 12? We turn it up to 11. Okay. All the way up, right? Then watch Ryan Michelle Baffey in the stand.

You guys, my wife will go after any parent that she thinks is sort of like attacking her child of the kid. If the parents are like, that's a foul. She's like, it was not a foul. Like Ryan is hysterical. I've had to keep Ryan from at least three fights that I can think of once in like Little League Super Bowl games in flag football. And once yesterday or when she had the playoff game, the championship. You kind of invite me to these things. Yeah, this is right.

I would absolutely invite you because like from like coaching, I'm talking to the kids. I hear my wife that advice got to do. And I turn around and say, hey, it's okay. And she'll be like, ah! Like it is absolutely hysterical. But the game is over. We win 31 to 30. Andrew Brown, who acts like he's too cool for school for everything, runs out onto the court and grabs 10-year-old boys.

It's like, let's go. Let's fucking go. Like, it gets so hyped. There's one of the few times that I see him and his brother, like, jump and embrace and, like, hug each other and everything. Like, that was, as far as success is concerned, because the winning is one thing. What you feel more than anything else is relief because the sadness is too much. Oh, gosh. Do you guys remember, you guys may not be old enough for ABCs to do something called the wide world of sports.

And they would talk about, and Howard Koseil over the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. I think the agony of defeat. of defeat probably hits harder than actually the thrill of victory. So I feel like, okay, we made it through that one. Because when the 10-year, even as I'm shaking the hands of the other kids, and the tears are streaming down their eyes, I'm like, hey, fella, you played a great game. You played a great game. Not better than us, but pretty good.

I even dapped up the coach and I said, good coach. He tried to slow the game down. So we have offensive players who are pretty good. In the first half of the basketball game, you're not allowed to press full court, so you can set up your offense. And the second half of this league, you can press full court. So things get a little helter-skelter.

So in the half court, we dominate because we have two kids who I would say are Sullivan-esque in terms of stature. They're like big boys. Hairy chested. There you go. That sort of thing. Where parents are like, is he really ten? Full beard.

Yes. That's the whole thing. So the guy would literally hold the ball, right? And because we didn't want to press him, he would spend two minutes just holding the ball to slow the game down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I got a little frustrated, but it was. was okay. We got the W in the end. So I'm just sharing a little story of success and what happened

to us recently. That's it. What's going on with you guys? Why doesn't victory last as long as defeat? Yeah. Why doesn't it stick? Why don't we hold on to it? Why does it not hold as much weight as failure and defeat? I think it goes back to the reticular activating system. We as human beings have been the reticular activating system. R-A-S. It is the thing, what you're talking about, a negativity bias. It's why people hold on to bad news. Yeah. Right? Longer, you know, for every 10 pieces of bad news or every one piece of good news,

one piece of bad news sort of equals that sort of thing. It's the thing that lingers in our mind. Losing hurts. I think also it's like safety-wise, oh, if this is bitter, I could die. Like there are things there were legitimate dangers in the past. It's like, I got to remember if I touch that, that's hot, that sort of thing. And so it's still present here, but not as, you know. relevant

necessary. If I'm not victorious in battle I'll never find a mate. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's basically it.

You're right. So, yeah. And I will lose and I will die alone. I mean, that's like that, right? The fear at the base of everything, I will end up dying alone. Yeah. Seriously.

Yeah. I think that's what much comes back to. Yeah. Yeah. Do you, okay, wait. Do you have any other stories to share before we could? Because there's a game to play, but I want to make sure.

I'm trying to think of like. with you people. I mean, I'm trying to think about how I can relate to this story because I was a highly competitive athlete as a kid. And yeah, there's just those. And in the last episode, I don't know if it was the last episode, one of the recent episodes we were talking about the inner critic. And just that like, eh, you're no good.

Uh-huh. Yeah, you're not good enough. Yeah. And as soon as something confirms, something agrees with that voice, then now that's just, that's just confirmation. That's also the I is. It's a confirmation. And I've talked about this with Rachel in couples therapy where our couples therapist is like,

you know that you need to, for any bit of criticism that you have for your partner, you need to deliver 20. 20. It's 20 to 1. It's 20 to 1. Compliments or encouragements. Yeah. And that's a lot of work. And I was telling Rachel, it's like, yeah, Rach, Rach, I,

If you point out, if you point out where I failed, there's a voice in my head that told me I was going to fail before I even did. And then I did fail. And then you slightly mention it, not even with any malice. Yeah. But now I'm being ganged up on. By myself. By you and myself.

Yeah. And it comes off like, yeah, I know. It gets defensive, right? And I still, you know, I'm 45 years old and still have a hard time with that. Yeah. I think it's something that we'll continue to battle through life, you know. Yeah. What about you, Amanda?

I'm trying to think I don't really have any relation to this. I don't lose. You only win. I'm only a winner. You're like Sean Carter, Jay-Z. I will not lose. No, I mean, and it's, I don't have any experience yet with my children. They're so little.

And yeah, guys, I can't believe that, like, we're on the precipice of summer. I guess summer sort of already started. There you go. We're about to get out of summer. school over in our... You're not out yet. We have one kid out. Okay. The other's going to be out in like a week change. Yeah. And then like, yeah, I feel like

already, I don't know if you guys are feeling this way, but we have a lot of summer plans. I know you're working. You're going to be working too. But it's like, okay, we have camps and Taylor's on the road. And then we have one little trip here. And then we have more camp. And then we have another trip. And then it's like, and then school starts. Yeah. Summer's tough. Summer's tough. And I think back now to my parents, again, we were talking about earlier, like all the things

that you just like, you don't know until you know them until you've experienced. Now being a parent, I'm like, oh my gosh, not everybody has a summer vacation. I just loved summer as a kid. I loved those like lazy days with no plans. And now as a parent, I'm like, that must have been the world's worst circumstance for my Because, like, they had three kids and, like, just trying to make sure that everybody had plans, that everyone had something to do. Yeah. Yeah.

Then there's those days where every other kid on the street is gone on their trip. Yeah. Sure. And it's you and your brother. And it's Sacramento. And it's hot. And it's 105 degrees outside. And your mom is like, get out of my house.

Yeah. Yeah. Go outside and play. Go outside. I'm going to melt. It's 105 degrees. You're drinking that, you're drinking that brassy water. from the hose.

Yeah. It's so hot. Yeah. And the hose water is still kind of hot too. Yeah, it starts out hot. You can wait for groundwater to make it's way up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Too hot to drink. You're like, I can make tea with the first 30 seconds of this water. Was the water better, or was that something we were never supposed to do? That water was so refreshing. We probably hadn't ruined it quite as much yet. Yeah. But it probably wasn't. 100% we hadn't ruined it as much.

But it wasn't made for mass consumption. Gotcha. Okay. But yeah, I used to see if I could stop the water. water with the pressure of my mouth. Bro. Can't do it. Came on my nose.

Did you do that? Do you feel the water gun up with water? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, what was that? Just squirting the water gun in your mouth? Yeah. Yeah.

I'm thirsty. Just water. Just skating around getting in trouble. Microplastics. I would go. Just getting some of them microplastics. We had a 7-11, like kind of at the end of our subdivision. It took like 20 minutes on the,

the bike to get there. That must have seemed like Narnia. It was. Shangri-la, bro. You guys, let's go to 7-11. Let's go to 7-Eleven. Let's ride our bikes to 7-11. And like my mom gave us like five bucks. Five bucks. You could raid the place. You know what? It was like 39 cents. Oh, yeah. It was like Jolly Ranchers. For me, my order was always like Jolly Ranchers, strawberry preferred. My order. Okay. Hello, my good man. My name is Amanda. I would like to place an order. Here's my 7-Eleven order, okay? Give it to you.

The long, remember they used to have the long Jolly Rancher strips? They were like a tab of solid like lollipop, but they were Jolly Rancher. You don't remember this? No. Absolutely. Oh my gosh. Long and thin. Yeah.

They would have like cherry watermelon. Strawberry was the Mecca. That's your jam. So a strawberry, Jolly Rancher, a Coke slurpee, obviously. No matter of that. And then like either. a Reese's peanut butter cup or pieces. Peanut butter and chocolate.

Or like a what you might call it bar. So I could have a chocolate and a little bit of like a sour, you know, and maybe a gummy bear situation too. I would spend too much money on some Big League chew. Oh, really? And would just wear my jaw out. Oh my gosh. And Big League Chew loses flavor.

Instantly. After about five chews. Yeah. So you do it or whatnot. And then you make a big, you don't spit it out. No, no, you put a bigger ball. You need a bigger jaw. Your poor jaw.

Your poor jaw. Jard's to, like, think about it. Yeah, but that's why you got this strong jaw now. Mewing. I was mewing before anybody even knew with that question. Mewing. There you go. Summer.

That's what I think about when I think about summer. Yeah. There's a game to play. As we get into success or whatnot, the producers came up with this. We're going to compliment each other. Okay. As we compliment each other, you're not allowed to smile.

I've already lost this game. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. I'm not betting on myself in this one. I'm not betting on me. All right. Christopher is strong. He's ready.

He's locked in right now. Look at him. I got such low self-esteem already. None of your compliments can get through my negative inner voice. I'm working right now just to keep it. Yeah, just trying to let the. Keep it loose. I've already lost.

I'm already, I'm already, Chris, would you like to give Mandy a compliment? And then I'll give Mandy a compliment. And then she'll be the first. Do you have to keep my eyes open? Yes. You have to take this in. Yes. Drink all this. And you have to watch us one day early on Hulu. There you go. Here we go. Who, me specifically or just the world? The world and Mandy.

Wait, I have to look at you guys while you're complimenting. You can look at me while Chris compliments you. Oh my God. But don't know. Amanda, Amanda Lee Moore. I've already lost. You look at me. I've already lost. I haven't even given you the compliment. Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Let me know when you're done smiling. You're not going to do it. So is a woman thinking then our heart so is she? You got it. This that's biblical. Yeah. So as a woman thinketh in her mind.

It's not helping. So is she. You got this. Here we go. Okay. Andy. I love that you're always smiling. It's just her voice.

Your voice makes me laugh. Thank you. All right. Now I'm going to get Sterling. All right. Come on, Brown. Get it together. Get it together.

You're not. the funk together. You're not that special. You're not that special. Well, yeah, don't look at me. I got mischief in my eyes that I will transmit across the airwaves.

This is for our listening audience. All of the big pauses are for people watching a day early on Hulu. Sterling K. Brown. Yes, sir. You might be the greatest kisser I've ever experienced. Thank you, buddy.

You're welcome. I appreciate that. It's my time. You are you? No, no, go for it. Just very considerate. You're talking about me as a kisser? Oh, no, no, just as a person.

You're kissing, very forceful, very inconsiderate, actually, almost too aggressive. Beard on beard is not ideal. But I'll take it. My man. Thank you. I almost got him. I almost got him.

Thank you. I almost got him. More that was us after this short break. I bought myself a Lola Blanket a few months ago. Before they were even sponsors of this podcast. Before they were sponsors, they became sponsors of the podcast. I'm like, are we talking about my favorite blanket? Oh!

So we have a beautiful sort of like furry, fuzzy Lola Blanket. It stays in our little like TV room. It's super cozy. It's everybody's favorite blanket when we jump down there to watch a movie or a TV show as a family. It is a fan favorite in our house. I just found out. Lola's the world's number one blanket crafted with ultra soft, luxury faux fur, and a signature four-way stretch that sets it apart. It's machine washable.

It's double hem for durability. It stays flawless. There's no pilling, no shedding. Even after repeated washes, I will attest to that. It elevates the space, right? It does. Like it's one thing to throw a radial blank. on the couch. But if you got a blanket that shifts a room, right? Yeah. Unbelievably soft,

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One of the things that people love about this is us is that the homes on the show almost feel like characters, right? The Pearson House, cabin, the places that the family keeps coming back to. Yeah, growing up, we actually had a cabin in the Sierra Nevada Mountain. And near Lake Tahoe, just outside of Truckee. And we used to go there quite a bit for holidays and weekends. And it was a really magical place. It was there was no homework there.

There was no worries there. It was just fun and adventure. And it's a character in our family history. These are the places that matter because they hold memories. And when you think about travel, families are often looking for that same feeling, comfort, space, and somewhere they can actually be together even while they're away. Well said, sir. So when you are away, listing your space on Airbnb can be a way for you to share that kind of comfort with travelers coming to your area while earning extra cash. See, that is just a smart way to make use of your own space when you're not using it.

And with Airbnb's co-host network, you can get support from a vetted local co-host who has hosting experience. A co-host can help create your listing, manage reservations, message guests, and provide on-site support. they can even help with design and styling. That means your space can keep being useful while you are somewhere else making your own memories. So if you are ready to host, but you could use a little bit of help, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash hosts.

One of the things that people love about This Is Us is that the homes on the show almost feel like characters, right? The Pearson House, cabin, the places that the family keeps coming back to. Yeah, growing up, we actually had a cabin in, the Sierra Nevada Mountains near Lake Tahoe and just outside of Truckee and we used to go there

quite a bit for holidays and weekends and it was a really magical place there was there was no homework there there was no worries there it was just fun and adventure and it's a character in our family history. These are the places that matter because they hold memories

and when you think about travel families are often looking for that same feeling comfort space and somewhere they can actually be together even while they're away. Well said, sir. So when you are away, listing your space on Airbnb can be a way for you to share that kind of comfort with travelers coming to your area while earning extra cash.

See, that is just a smart way to make use of your own space when you're not using it. And with Airbnb's co-host network, you can get support from a vetted local co-host who has hosting experience. A co-host can help create your listing, manage reservations, message guests, and provide on some. support, they can even help with design and styling. That means your space can keep being useful while you are somewhere else making your own memories. So if you are ready to host, but you could use a little bit of help, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host.

Listen, I'm not even going to try to make you smile or laugh. That's not the thing. I'm going to tell you about how incredibly moved I am to be your friend and how your transparency as a human being is something that I think is worthy of emulation for all human beings. The way that you've talked about your addiction in the past, the way that you talk about how you're still moving through things or whatnot, I think you're one of the most beautiful people I've ever met in my life. And you don't have to smile at that.

You don't have to do anything. I just want you to receive it because I absolutely mean it. I love you. I love you too. So this game was just designed to make me look like a dick. Just to not smile and I get it.

That's it. You've, you've... I love you. I love you too, buddy. I love the way you play the game. Thank you. And I do receive that. Thank you.

I wholeheartedly. I appreciate you. What about you now? Mandy's still smiling. I still smiling. I just haven't stopped smiling. I think Mandy Moore is the heart and soul of This Is Us. I think the work that she did as Rebecca Pearson

is probably one of the greatest performances over six years of television that anybody has ever put down. I think she is undersung because people knew her as a singer first. And so sometimes they're like, is she really an actor? Watch the work. All you have to do is watch the work, experience how connected she is, Every moment on camera, this chick is a fucking beast.

And if you guys don't recognize it, fucking recognize. Love you. Oh, love you. Thank you. This is a wild game. Louser. I'm a loser. I'm a loser and a winner.

There you go. Yeah. There you go. Should we move on to the next? This game sucks. This game sucks, guys. I love this game. It was great.

This was great. Well, now I want to give a real compliment. I know. You do. So you didn't expect me to flip it. I tried to, I was like, I'm just going to go sincere. This game, this game was called Sterling Takes the High Road. And that's one.

Yeah, me. We're talking about success. And I'm curious for you guys. Have you ever had a working definition of what success means in your mind? When I, when this came up as the topic, I was like, I have no. idea how to talk about what they're talking about. Really? Yeah. Because you don't feel like you've It's ethereal. It's a hard. I'm so stuck on not getting to compliment both of you guys, but Did you want to? I mean, yeah. Sorry, we moved too fast. No, no, no. I just like, I don't know.

Is it weird now? No. No. I just feel. Yeah. I mean, for both of you, like, I echo what Sterling said, Chris. Like, there's something so profoundly human about your vulnerability and your generosity as a friend. You're the reason we're here. If it weren't for you, Chris, this podcast wouldn't exist. You are the muscle and the heart behind this whole operation. You do so much silently. You never ask for credit. You never ask for gratitude.

And there is, you deserve all of that. And you're just such a wise human. You're never afraid to like, you know, reveal every side of yourself, not just to us as your friends, but like the world at large. You're an unbelievably talented human. It is so such a joy to watch you do anything on camera always. It's a joy to watch you on stage where I feel like you really come alive in a way that like the camera doesn't get to capture. And you're just like one of my favorite people to be around. You make me laugh and you do too.

Like nobody else. And I feel so surprised and lucky that this opportunity for the three of us to pair up came about because I feel like as much as I knew you and loved you before, I know you in such a like profoundly holistic way that I wasn't expecting. And I'm really grateful for that. Yeah. That's very nice. Thank you. I smile for a couple. I think we all can smile.

Yeah, I'm smiling. It's hard to pay you a compliment, Sterling. It's hard to even begin to, like, dig into the treasure that you are as a human. It's like we all come across people who know you, who love you, and who have, you know, worked with you or even just, like, met you in passing. And they're like, I love Sterling. And it's so universal. Everybody feels the same way about you. You are the brightest light in any room.

You radiate a warmth. You radiate a curiosity that I find inspiring. I'm like, wow, that is such a great reminder to never stop learning, to never stop being open. And as someone who has found who can do anything, truly, you can do anything, you are everything. You are hilarious. You are the smartest person in every room. you knock us out with your vocabulary, your knowledge. You are truly what keeps this train running on this podcast as well.

But it's just like you just never cease to amaze me that you are, you find the time for everything. You find the time for your family. You find the time for friends. You find the time to watch every single television show somehow. You know about every movie. You have this encyclopedic version of everything. It's, you are, you're just a feat as a human and I love you and I feel so lucky that like our little corner of the world, our little six years of being together means that like I'm going to get to know you both for the rest of my life is the best gift I ever could have imagined. I love you many more.

I love you. This is a fun game. Thank you. Now I'll do a real one. Now it's a real one. The idea of doing this together. Yeah. is not haphazard, right? It's not slapdash.

It's very, from my part, I have always viewed both of you as two of the most self-realized people and artists that I've ever encountered. And that makes me feel alive. I love being around you. Likewise. And I love learning from you, both as parents and as people and as artists watching you work.

And to be able to sit down and have heartfelt conversation and also make jokes and be silly. And then stop and eat lunch and still be talking. And you know what I mean? And then it's a rare thing. So I'm just, I'm on. Every time we schedule another day of this, I'm like, I can't believe they're coming back for another day of this. It's incredible. I get to sit down with these two for another day of this.

And I just driving here, no matter what is happening, I am always so excited to be here and so excited to see you and to talk to you. Because I can be going through like the, I told Mandy on the way, like right before I walked in, it was like life was just. like, and I almost didn't care for the first time. I was like, but it's all right, because I'm going to do this. And then I'll get back to that. Yeah. And so I'm just every day, I'm honored that you've taken the time. Likewise, times a million.

And I just, I learned so much from you both. And so I'm very grateful for that. Namaste. Namaste. Namaste. What a nice little, because, because by the way, like, to me, this is success. Yeah. Like to me, every lovely word we all just said about each other, that is success.

That is legacy. Like that to me is a big part of what's most important to me is, you know, the people that I am lucky enough to get to work with and respect them regarding me well. And being able to learn from one another, learn from these collective shared experiences we're having. everyone has a different definition of what success is. And I know this sort of piggybacks on everything that we're going to be talking about in this episode. And I feel like the definition definitely ebbs and flows and it shifts and it evolves as we get older in the same way that our definitions of what love is, romantic love. But that's something that's always been constant to me is like there's so much that's out of your control.

the things that you can control, like, I don't know, is there's so much value in that to me and that is what I equate a lot of success to. This is Mandy specific because I think you are the most known of us for the longest period of time. Let's not even talk about success,

but let's talk about fame and how they're sort of in conjunction with success to a certain extent. What was it like to deal with fame? early. Does it, did it feel like, especially compared to the average teenager who's around you or whatnot? But I don't know, yeah, it's like I don't know anyone else's experience but my own. Well, tell me about that experience, but did you feel isolated in the experience or did you feel

welcomed in the experience? Both. Both. At different times. Yeah. I think I was aware that my situation was incredibly lucky. Sure. and other.

Yeah. And so I had gratitude and grief and sometimes for what I was missing out on. Sure. I was sad to not like have the regular high school and college experience because that was something I had always sort of imagined for myself and envisioned for myself. So grieving that while also being grateful for like, Oh, but I'm on a film set in Prague. Right.

And not at my high school graduation or at prom. Yeah. It's like to hold both of those things at the same time. Did you go junior or senior year? Did you get a prom? I went to homecoming junior year. You got to homecoming, okay. Or sophomore or something.

I think maybe it was sophomore. Did you win homecoming queen? No, no, no, no, no. I wasn't in school. No, I told you that was the one where I went back and like the girls were talking about me in the bathroom. Like in a rom-com. I was like peeing. I was in the stall.

I was in the stall and they were like, she really, she thinks so highly at herself. Like, I can't believe she would come back. She doesn't even go to school here anymore. Like, who does she think she is? And then did you kick the door open? Yeah. And walk out.

And do like a hair flip. Walk up to the mirror and put your lipstick on. And then you kiss the glass. And you're like, see you later, bitches. I should have. The movie version of me did that. This is very funny. The real life version waited in the stall

until they left. Yeah. Obviously. Obviously. Obviously. That had been my move. Yeah. I would, so I'll start with a beginning.

That happened to me a couple of nights ago accidentally. Are you serious? Well, not that. I had to wait in the store. I was at the Directors Guild and I, and I, uh, wandered in to the restroom. I'm in the stall. And then I hear high heels. And then I, and then I hear two ladies talking.

I'm gone. And I'm like, oh no. Oh, no, no, no, no. Oh, I'm in the... I'm in the wrong place. I'm in the women's restroom. Oh, dear. Oh, what's the play here, Sullivan?

What's the play here? So I hovered. I almost spoke that out of. Waited for silence. I was able to get out of there without being arrested. That was my fear, is that I was going to come out, so someone was going to scream. Wee, weo, we, yeah.

Chris Sullivan found lurking in the women's restroom at the director's guild. I've totally done that. I was on my phone and the entrances are right next to each other and I just like wandered in. Well, like the lettering wasn't clear on the outside of the restaurant

and I thought like, oh, well, this is a unisex restaurant. Yeah. And I was in the stall. And when I came out, it was nothing but women. Yeah. And I was just like, hey guys. What I'm saying is my experience the other night was exactly like your experience.

Exactly. Gotta wait it out. Gotta wait it out. Gotta wait it out. Gotta wait it out. I don't wait this one out. Success. Well, I, I just,

Okay. Back to you. Sure. Do you feel finding fame later in life, both of you actually? Yeah. How does that, maybe like what is the perception you had of what it meant to be famous versus the reality of your lived experience now for both of you? And your relationship to fame versus success, like what you were hoping for or dreaming about or did they ever go hand in hand?

Yeah. There is some sort of overlap between the two, but they're not the same thing. For me, when I first got out of grad school, I said, I had a conversation with God, and the conversation said, God, I paid all this money for this degree. Can I please make a living at doing the thing that I love doing? And paying the bills as an actor was what I defined success as being.

Yeah. And I've been successful. I've been successful in that way since I got out of school, right? I would say for me, a tipping point in the career was OJ followed by, this is us, followed by everything that come after it, right? There was a big turn between being a journeyman actor, right? And be like, oh, I remember that guy from this episode of Supernatural. He was on without a trace.

Oh, I remember he did A.R. back in the day. And then I said this. I remember. People know your name without Googling you. This is it. Yeah. When they refer to you specific, this is, and I knew, This was a definition of success for me.

If you don't call me the character name and you call me by my name. That's success. I remember thinking that. I remember thinking that, like, oh, people think that I'm Rowland from Armywives or I'm Randall or I'm this character. But when people say, are you Sterling K. Brown? It means it's completely different now. Yeah, yeah. It hits you in a whole other way.

You say, no, get away from me. I said leave me alone, ma'am. So that was also a part of it, but like, I think it's a much more sort of holistic thing and it has more to do with life in general than it does about the career specifically, because like going home and knowing that I'm going into the arms of a woman who's loving and looking forward to seeing me, who kids who are well provided for and are happy and are excited to go out into the world and make a contribution. Like, I feel like that's, when you're young,

you don't necessarily think, all you're thinking about is a career, probably. But like, by the time I got to 25, 26, I knew that the career was not the end all. I knew it was a part of a successful life, but it wasn't the only thing in a successful life. Like, I've wanted to be a dad since I was 16, 17 years old. I think because I had all the nieces and nephews and everything,

and I was like, ooh, children bring life. There's vitality whenever I'm in the presence of these beautiful, pure people that have like this curiosity and engagement with the world and they're seeing it with new eyes. Like that was something that was always going to be a part of the equation for me. So I think when that all came together, and especially, honestly, in my mind, I always had two kids in my head. Wow.

And Rye sort of like, she's like, how did you know this? And I was like, I don't know. I would have these lucid dreams back in the day of what it was going to look like. And it wasn't necessarily two boys, right? But it was two people like climbing on me and just like doing stuff. And I'm like, what are you doing? And they're like, I don't know. And I'm like, stop climbing on me.

But I always just made me happy. Like when you went to the zoo and you saw like the bear cubs, I was like, that's that shit right there. I was like, that's what I'm saying. Like I'm like this eternally youthful person. I think like being in the presence of youth and having youth to be able to shape and guide and mold and sort of like turn them into the kind of people that I want to hang out with someday. Yeah. It was part of it. Merriam Webster defines success as the accomplishment of a desired goal or the favorable outcome of an endeavor.

It is a highly personal concept that can range from achieving wealth, fame, and status to finding personal fulfillment, inner peace, and good health. Yeah. Yeah. So the idea of being successful is maybe too overarching of a term. Yeah. The phrase. Okay. Being successful.

Yeah. Having successes. Sure. Successes. I can relate to and identify. Yeah. That was a successful endeavor that I achieved this goal. So I succeeded in achieving that goal.

Yeah. But to be a success is a different. is a different thing, I think. Different concept. Especially now. What was the question? When you were young, what was the idea? Well, yeah, and this idea of fame and success.

Right. That sort of... I definitely think there are huge pros and cons to fame. Yeah. And I don't want to listen. I want to maintain relatability. So I want to share it in such a way that people aren't, You know, oh, don't cry for me, Argentina.

You know what I'm saying? There is... Also unrelatable, quoting Aviva. The access to... People want to be around you. Yeah. They want to invite you to gala's and things and to be on their shows, et cetera. And it's fun and it's cool and it's exciting, right?

Then there is the assumed knowledge of I know who this person is. is. And this person is here for my benefit. And I am, but not only for your benefit, I'm also just like a dude in life. And that gets forgotten sometimes when you're just out in public. Right? And you have to, I've had conversations about this recently. Like you have to draw these very firm boundaries about what you will allow and not allow. If you want to continue to be a person who is in communion with people. Right? Because my wife will ask me sometimes, you should get a gate. We should get a gate. And I was like, no, I don't. And it's not a safety thing per se. I don't like the idea of keeping myself at arm's length. Because I love people, right? But you can see how as people sort of like grow in their fame can become more isolated because it's hard to just be out amongst people and then receive you as a person. And you are just a person. Like at the end of the day, like that's what you are. And so like, people will be out and I say, oh my goodness, can't get this picture? And I'll say, no, but you can't get this hug. You can't get this handshake because right now I'm with my kids or right now I'm with my wife.

Right now I'm with really close friends that I haven't had a chance to catch up with in a while. I want to make sure they get the time that they deserve. And you know what? People are real cool. Yeah. They're like, once you sort of like lay it out for them in that way, they're like, you know what, completely get it. Thank you so much for your work and everything like that. Because I don't want to be someone who just stays in house.

Right. Yeah. Because you see, like, how that can happen. Yeah. Right. So that's why fame and success are sort of like, they run parallel sometimes. Yeah, they merge together at certain points, but they don't always have to. No, no, no, not at all. Yeah. Yeah. Are you about to add any question?

Oh, bother. What's your question? No. Oh, bother. Lost my tale again. Is there anything that you thought, like, once you make it to a certain thing that you felt like you made? It was the same. Like, when I was living in Chicago and I bought a condo. Yeah. And was paying for my mortgage on this condo.

Yes, sir. As a theater actor. Yeah, man. I was like, how about this? How about these? How about these boards? Well, I got it. I got it.

You know, the stuff like that, that has. has always been, it's easy because it's physical. Like, it's a physical thing that you can point to and be like, I pay for my housing with a thing that I do. Sure. But as I've gotten older, you know, I think it's more, it's evolved into, overarchingly realizing that, that I am successful if the people around me feel, like the fullest versions of themselves.

I like that. If that makes sense. It does. So that's been a big shift from like, you know, in my journals, I was like, if I get an academy award, that will be a thing that I can put on a shelf and point to and be like success. Yes. You know, and so there's all these like physical things.

Yeah. You know. Yeah. The car I want to drive. I got you. The whatever it is. I remember as a kid. even as a, you know, like teenager thinking, if I could have longevity, that is success.

Longevity in career? Yeah. Longivity and career. We're just talking in the professional realm. Yeah. That is success. Is there a person, like a tent pole that you would look at and be like a career like hers would be or his? I've said it so many times lately, but I loved Bet Midler.

Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. I loved. I still love. Still love. She's still with us. Thank God. But I mean, when I was a kid, my mom had this, like, tour book of hers that she went

and saw her, like, in concert. And I would flip through and see her and all her different costumes. But, like, I loved beaches. And to know that she made record. Oh. Oh, look at that. The tables have turned. And I shared it just because I knew.

Thank you. That makes me feel warm inside. We listened to two kinds of music in my mom's car growing up. The Beaches soundtrack? Yep. And what, wept? And Paul Simon. Wow.

Graceland and the Beaches Soundtrack? Literally, yes. Wow, those are two real. Did you ever know that you're my ear? Yeah, yeah. But I loved that she made music, was on Broadway. Like I remember Gypsy, like she had just done Gypsy. She was in movies, obviously.

Yeah. She did TV. She had a kid. She was married. Like, I was like, oh, she does everything. And she's also, like, very much an individual. Yeah. Like, she's not everyone's cup of fee.

And I was like, and she's been doing this since she was like, you know, in her 20s, like, playing with Barry Manolo. Like, I just thought that was so cool. I'm like, I want to do everything like her. And she's still doing that. Yeah. So people like that that I just was like, yeah. And Diane Keaton. Like there was actresses too that I was just like, well, people that have really like carved their own path.

That was that was really inspiring to me. But yeah, just longevity. I was like, I want to do this forever. Like for as long as I'm allowed, as long as I'm interested still. Yeah. And I feel like in many ways, like my definition of success, again in the professional realm, is still defined that way. Yeah. Because there's so much out of our conditions.

Was there ever anything else you were going to do? No. Nothing. No. Ever. From six on, I was like, I'm going to sing and act. I love it. You guys?

I didn't find acting until I did my first play freshman year of high school. I did Godspell. Same. Was in the ensemble. And I was like, ooh, this is fun. And this is a high that I can receive that I get on the football field in the basketball court. And nobody's hitting me. And that feels nice.

Yeah. And then I didn't have the... And there's girls. There's girls too. And then it wasn't until, you know, sophomore year college where I sort of like actually chose it as a pathway. So up until then, I had dreams of being like a football coach. I loved kids. Like I loved being...

Although the two times I've been a counselor, I was not asked back the next year because they told me that I played too much with the kids. Like a camp counselor? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. They told me to do like you.

Like you were one of the kids. Yeah, basically. Sterling, if you'd like to attend the camp, you're going to have to pay. Yeah. I'm not going to pay you. Right? That was the rap that I got there. But I knew I wanted to do something with kids, but it wasn't clear exactly what it was going to be.

Yeah. Something with sports or maybe even in the theater. But what about you? Besides tennis. I mean, yeah, there was, there was, you know, around 14, 15, there was the possibility of trying to play professionally. Okay. That's probably about the crossroads for most young men, 13, 14, 15, whether you're all in or you're all out.

Being a coach, I coached it, I would coach tennis during the summers at Stanford. Okay. And then there were brief little, like, foyeres into, I had looked up and actually sent an application into the FBI. I, because I loved the X-Files so much. Cute. Yeah. I love it. That's awesome.

I was like, I'd like to be a part of your ghost division. I was like, whatever it was. But I was like, that'd be interesting. And then I had a friend at my church who was a sheriff. And I'm like, oh, law enforcement. That's interesting. I thought about, I looked into that. It was like, one of those high school things were like, what do you want to be?

And you're like, I don't know. Well, how about this? And then, and then, uh, and then, uh, once, I think once high school, once I started doing plays, I was like, you know, how do I do this? Okay. And it wasn't even about like, because I was in Sacramento. I was like, I don't, there's no movies or no TV. Like, I'm not going to do that.

I'm going to do theater for the rest of my life. And then I found Chicago, which is like, oh, you can actually do theater. Yeah. For the rest of your life and own a house and put your kids through school. Sure. But then I thought, you know, speaking of success, I thought Broadway's the thing. Once I do that, that will be. That's the ticket.

That's the thing. And it was for a short time. And then you're like, well, yeah. We'll be right back with more. That was us. I bought myself a Lola Blanket a few months ago. Before they were even sponsors of this podcast. Before they were sponsors, they became sponsors of the podcast.

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Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola Blankets. One of the things that people love about this is us is that the homes on the show almost feel like characters, right? The Pearson House, cabin, the places that the family keeps coming back to. Yeah, growing up, we actually had a cabin. in the Sierra Nevada Mountains near Lake Tahoe and just outside of Truckee and we used to go there quite a bit

for holidays and weekends and it was a really magical place there was no homework there there was no worries there it was just fun and adventure and it's a character in our family history these are the places

that matter because they hold memories and when you think about travel families are often looking for that same feeling comfort space and somewhere they can actually be together even while they're away. Well said, sir. So when you are away, listing your space on Airbnb can be a way for you to share that kind of comfort with travelers coming to your area while earning extra cash.

See, that is just a smart way to make use of your own space when you're not using it. And with Airbnb's co-host network, you can get support from a vetted local co-host who has hosting experience. A co-host can help create your listing, manage reservations, message guests, provide on-site support. They can even help with design and styling. That means your space can keep being useful while you are somewhere else making your own memories. So if you are ready to host, but you could use a little bit of help, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. One of the things that people love about This Is Us is that the homes on the show almost feel like characters, right? The Pearson House, cabin, the places that the family keeps coming back to. Yeah, growing up, we actually had a

cabin in the Sierra Nevada Mountains near Lake Tahoe, just outside of Truckee. And we used to go there quite a bit for holidays and weekends. And it was a really magical place. It was there was no homework there. There was no worries there. It was just fun and adventure. And it's a character in our family history. These are the places that matter because they hold memories. And when you think about travel, families are often looking for that same feeling, comfort space, and somewhere they can actually actually be together even while they're away. Well said, sir. So when you are away, listing your space on Airbnb can be a way for you to share that

kind of comfort with travelers coming to your area while earning extra cash. See, that is just a smart way to make use of your own space when you're not using it. And with Airbnb's co-host network, you can get support from a vetted local co-host who has hosting experience. A co-host can help create your listing, manage reservations, message guests, and provide on-site support. They can even help with design and styling. That means your space can keep being useful

while you are somewhere else making your own memory. So if you are ready to host, but you could use a little bit of help, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash hosts. Okay, but speaking similarly to the question you just asked me, was there anybody in both of your lives who you sort of looked to to emulate, and you're like, that is,

that's my idea of success. That's what success looks like to me. I got five people in my head. But there's a very specific sort of five people because the first two just passed away not too long ago are Hackman and DeValle. I was always fascinated by the fact that they were roommates in New York City.

Wow, yeah. I was like, these two dudes, like, knew each other, and they went on to become like these people. I was like, that's insane, right? You know, I remember watching To Kill a Mockingbird. And I was like, that's his first movie, is Boo Radley? Like, Duvall's first role is like Boo Radley in the Kill a Mockingbird. I was like, are you kidding?

He was 35. I remember when he got his first film role. And I was like, all right, still got time. To know that people like hit a little bit later. Because sometimes when you're young, you're like, oh, if it hasn't happened, is it going to happen? That sort of thing, right? But I remember just two master craftsmen who like put in their time and work. They knew it. I don't know. There's something that just touched me.

And I have like these friends of mine, whether it's Andre Holland or Brian Kinrie and Terrell McCraney. And I was like, oh, this is, we may kind of be like them one day. Like people may talk about us the way that I'm thinking about Hackman and DeVall. Right. Okay. Then as a young black man, two biggest stars, I think at that time in entertainment outside of Michael Jackson, Eddie Murphy and Denzel Washington. Eddie Murphy in terms of comedy, Denzel Washington in terms of drama, whatnot. And it's like, oh man, like these brothers are huge. But it's also this feeling this weird thing is like, it was kind of a Highlander mentality with regards to brothers that they can be only one.

You know what I'm saying? I was like, I don't know if I can just be the one. You know, hopefully there'd be a little bit more space when you, when we get over. They used to be the state of things, right? It really did. Yeah. And I've heard them talk about that to a certain extent, right? Then the last person I mentioned is Don Cheeto.

Because I felt like he's got his wife and long-term partner, and he's got kids. He would do film, he'd do television. I saw him at the public theater do Top Dog Underdog with Jeffrey Wright, and I remember watching it just out of grad school and being like, that's it, that's it. And I remember seeing him do interviews talking about like, you know, I could go around and doing movies all the time and it'd be great,

but I would miss so much of my children's lives that I made conscious choices to be present for them so I can see this happen to. And I'm like, yeah. You can do all of that. That's it. That's the shit. And so, like, those five people, right? But, like, Don, towards the end really just being like, oh, man, there's balance here.

There's a thoughtfulness. Like, there's an intentionality to it that he created something that he wanted that could sustain not just his career, but his family around him as well. His universe. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, bud? Only Tom Hicks.

Hmm. I mean, those movies, one after the first. Those movies, one after the other, of just like your Forrest Gumps, your Philadelphia's, your Apollo 13s, you're all, and there's something about, and there remains to be something about him. That's, that's, you never catch the guy acting, right? So when I was growing up, I didn't really even understand that he was acting.

Yeah. It was just like, he's a guy. Yeah. In different situations. Yeah, who everyone seems to like, who seems to be a very likable person, and he's like the most special, unspecial person. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know how to say that without it sounding derogatory, but it's like...

They call him in every man is what... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And to have the opportunities to play all those different roles. And he was definitely like in our house and in my mind. Like, that's it.

Was bosom buddies part of your youth? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Maybe in reruns. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Let's check it. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I was like, I remember watching it. I was like, oh, the dude from bosom buddies. And then he was just like, you know, I feel like something similar happened. McCona had this like mini run of things when he turned 40. I was like, this dude just took some sort of magic acting pill because he's killing it. Like he like McCona from from a, he took like a decade off. Yeah, true detectors and then like the Dallas Byers Club. And I was like, oh, bro, he's killing it.

Yeah, right? Because he had to walk away, he had to walk away from his rom-com identity. Yeah. Hanks is a great one. I love Tom Hanks. Love Tom Hanks. The end of Captain Phillips, you were talking about somebody not acting? Sometimes, like, there's a few moments where I watch people.

And I think I've said this before and I was like, oh, that's a good choice. I like that choice. I would have made a choice similar. I would have made a choice different. I like that. Then there's a moment where you go, oh, no, he did that. Yeah. I don't know how I did that.

And that's one of those ins-I haven't seen the movie. Oh, boy. I mean, that's not surprising. You could just watch that last. YouTube, the last scene of Captain Phillips, and understand that a captain has been taken hostage on his ship and then just watch that scene. It's like, it's...

Stupid. It is Michael Jordan dunking from the free throw line. Stupid. You're just like, how? What the Never seen before Yeah Okay

I'm gonna do that in the car You should probably watch the movie I'm only saying that because it may add The context of it Because sometimes if you jumped You remember I showed you guys You remember I showed you guys the clip Of O Girl explaining death

Yes yes yes yes I've shared that with so many people Paula Pell Paul O'Pell Oh I forgot about the rally There will come a time 48 hours before you die. Yeah, so good.

Okay, I'm jumping around. So there are different tent poles for success for me. Like what you were talking about buying the condo, like using your wage off of your art to provide a life for yourself, right? Paying back my student loans was a moment where I was just like, oh boy, I didn't, I know, I think my brother's, I don't know my sister, I think my brother's still paying back student loans. My brother's 14 years older than me. Remember this, right?

they can get you. And kids coming out of college now, if you don't have a lot of help, oh boy. So that's a rest of your life. Paying that. Get in the condo with Ryan, right? But also, like,

my wedding was, like, one of the best days of my life. Like, success. Oh, bro. It felt so good. Yeah. To be surrounded by friends and family

of celebrating your love or what have you. I mean, I had a very, some of the feeling with the roast. Like, honestly, it was, this is success. Like the cultivation of relationships. You can tell the people, my, me roasting you was as good as marrying Ryan.

Hands down. That's what you can tell. That's basically what you're saying. That's basically what he was saying. Period. Yeah, right? Period. But is what you were saying earlier, Mandy,

there are these moments when you think of yourself in a particular way, and I think I'm this way or whatnot, but then you're able to see something in the reflection of the relationships that you have nurtured in life. And you're like, if these people love me, yeah, I'm doing something right. Correct. And it doesn't even feel like self-congratulatory. It's just like, no, I'm friends with dope-ass people. I must be dope in order to be with these people. Yes. You know what I'm

saying? That's right. Like, that's pretty fucking awesome too. Now, I will also go into this. There's a couple of other ones where friends of mine would say this when they happened. First time I was on Sesame Street. Sure. Oh, yeah. Friends were like, bro, you're on Sesame Street. You're on Sesame Street. You're like talking to Ernie? I was like, that was pretty cool. Yeah. Had the privilege of doing S&L. Yes.

That was another one where friends were like, All right, all right. Milestone. It's happened. Yeah. It's done, right? Like, I mean, I had a buddy sent me in Texas. He was like, fuck your Emmy.

You're on SNL. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But also, don't fuck David. Like, Emmy. Yeah, that's pretty cool. They're sharp.

You can't. You can't. They're very pointed. Yeah. It would hurt. Way too sharp. Yeah. So there are these moments,

but like, there's nothing that. feels like you're done. Because there is this other part. Like if you use that as like sort of the tent pole thing, then you also have to recognize that you're only as good as the last thing you've done. Yeah. Right?

And then you just go like, I think there's, instead of like a moment of arriving at something, there's a moment of appreciation. I was like, that was cool. It was cool to be recognized. It was cool to be this. Now I want to go do something else. Right. Right?

Because there's always something else to be done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not on to bigger and better. It's just on to the next. What's next?

Like you, Mandy, like, I don't want to stop doing this. I have this vision of myself at whatever age, like saying lines, and being, you know, one day I'll be the grandpa, like I've been the dad. And I'm loving every bit of it. Yeah. Being on set is my church. And I don't mean that to sound like sacrilegious to anything. anybody or anything like that. But like when the zone is happening.

Yeah. And the spirits are flowing. 100%. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's nothing more magical. There's a day in particular where I remember this. And it had nothing to do with me. It was the day and it'll come up in this season, season six,

where Mandy Moore is sort of explaining to her kids like what's about to go down and what she expects from them when it goes off. I remember getting up from the table and walking away. Like, you won't be able to get this on camera. I was just like, this is what I'm fucking here for, bro. This, this bro is acting so hard. I just do it over and over again. I was like, yeah.

Let's go. Awesome. Awesome. There were so many times during the course of our show that I felt not like that. But just like, I would leave and I'd be radiating like, oh, this is. how it's supposed to feel. Yeah. This is electric. This is magic. To succeed as an artist, right, for the longest time I was trying to figure out what it is, right? So we identify this passion, right? This passion for performing or for collaborating with other people or whatever the

thing is. And the passion leads us to a purpose as we get older. Maybe we identify our, what we do has a deeper purpose than maybe we first. identified. And there's, I was talking about this at a FYC event the other night, which is probably not the place to talk about it because nobody, an FYC event wants to hear about the oneness of everything. You feel the, I do. You could feel the room turn. They're like, oh, okay, the oneness of everything. But that that's what all art, every, every art form in any form is trying to do is trying to remind us of the oneness of everything. Yeah. And to give you, you a way into that oneness, whether it's through this family

or this character or a song lyric, to remind you of a universal truth, something that is true, not objectively, not subjectively, something that is true with a capital T. And we as actors from the inside of it know when it's happening. We can see when another actor has gone there and they're like, oh shit. and that's when you have to drop in and support as much as you can and participate as much as you can and not interrupt and not get in the way and lift and participate and for a moment it's like those moments in church where where everyone's singing really nicely today.

Spirit is moving baby. People are harmonizing. Wow. People are in rhythm. Yeah. Which is also why it feels so painful on those days when it doesn't feel that way. where you're like, oh my God, oh my God, we're missing the point today. Right.

Or whatever we're doing is not getting at any truth. Yeah. It doesn't have to be high art. Right. But as long as it gets it some kind of truth. Absolutely. Then we will have succeeded. Yes.

You know, and I think we've found on this podcast that our show succeeded in doing that in ways that we never even imagined. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. Looking back, how much of your definition of success, came from you versus what society told you success should be. And I'll say this.

Once I made the decision to become an artist, it became from me. It came from me. But before, when I was an economics major and I had the job at the Federal Reserve Bank, and I thought that money was the end-all, be-all, right? I was definitely following a track that I think was laid down for me, but not by me, just what was expected of me. As soon as at age 20, I was like, no, no, no, no, no, money's not that important. Right.

I got, and I had to, and it's not that I wanted to live destitute, or I had some sort of glamorized version of a starving artist. Like, I wanted to live, but it wasn't the end game. The end game wasn't the pursuit of finance. The end game was the pursuit of art, of joy, of that oneness that you're talking about, of purpose. And once you find that, then the other things are the windfall from it. Right? But if you're chasing the external without sort of finding the reason for it, it was an empty pursuit of money.

Right? And I'm sure people probably have that thing that they do, and they may have a lot of money, but they don't have the other thing that's like lighting them up from within, you know? Then there's this other thing that happens where I say, I thank God at age 20 I made it, because my brother is a brilliant barbecue artist. I think I've talked about this, like earlier on in the podcast,

and has this big pit and will cook his meat for like 16 hours over a day and it's just falling off the bone, delicious. And he's a pharmaceutical salesman because it was the practical thing to do. And he had responsibility, he had kids earlier or whatnot. He said, if I had to do it over again, I may have gone into this thing. I'm glad for me that I don't have that conversation with myself. I did the thing. I made the switch.

That's the greatest gift I've ever given to Sterling Brown. It's saying like, you know what? This might be dumb, but it feels right. Yeah. And I got to see where this goes. Otherwise, I'm going to be asking myself that question. That was probably my greatest success. Yeah.

Right. If we can identify our passions. our passion will eventually reveal to us our purpose. Yeah. And the people in my life who I deem a, a quote-unquote success, are people who obey their purpose above all else. Yes. Yes.

Yep. Above partner, above finance, above circumstance, above whatever it is. This is my purpose. Yeah. And I know that. and I will do anything to stay true to that first. Because if you're not true to that, then you can almost instantly be identified as inauthentic to yourself.

If you stand for nothing, what do you fall for? You're just waffling. That's right. That's right. Yeah. I didn't mean for Aaron to catch strays. I just like Hamilton on that. Sorry, Aaron.

When appropriate. When appropriate. Aaron, we didn't mean it. Call into the speak pipe. Yeah. Let us know what you're. What your thoughts are. So what do you want your children?

Ooh. How do you want them to relate to success? We had an interesting thing with Bear. Bear wants to be first. Okay. Wants to be first in line. Wants to be the first one walking in a door. Yeah.

He wants to be first. Okay. He wants to be the leader. Yeah. And Rachel reframed it for him in a way. that was instantly helpful for him. And she was essentially just saying, you know, being a leader doesn't necessarily mean

you're always in front. It means that everyone you are with arrives safely. And it was like a way for him to like, reprocess what that means for a five-year-old. So he wasn't always literally like knocking people over. He's a big boy. To be first.

Yeah. To be the winner. Yeah. To be a success. To be the champion. Whatever the, you know, it's like, and you can see it. It's kind of really, I don't know what the word is, in children's entertainment, where it's like, we got to win this race.

It's like every cartoon. It's like, whatever we do, we can't lose. You know? and it's a bunch of monster trucks, like, knocking each other over to, like, and so, like, Bear, bear's the same where he gets an arm going. It's like, I got a win. There's nothing to win. Yeah.

You know, the four. It's just going in to eat lunch or whatever. The four of us, the four of us walking into eat lunch. The first one inside wins. Oh, no, totally. Gus is like, I got upstairs first. I'm like, it's not a race to go to the bath. Is my friend?

Yeah, you did. You got upstairs first. So what is it mean? What is it? What is success? What do I want my kids to think about? I feel like there is a great joy in extending effort towards something that you enjoy doing. I want to see.

I feel like a lot of teenagers sometimes will go through this moment of like an extension of effort looks inherently uncool. Right. To try too hard to look thirsty. Yeah. Yeah. And I want everybody to work through that time and phase. Yes. Stay thirsty, my friends. You know what I'm saying?

Because there is, I feel like, and this is sort of just mincing terms to a little bit, but like I feel like work when it's its best is hard but not arduous. Like you have to put something into it, right? In order to get something out of it that is of something. value. But while you're putting that something into it, there's a certain joy just in the process of doing it. So I hope that they find joy in the process of whatever they're doing. Because I think that's a lot of what we're talking about is that it's not an end result. To get good at failing. You know what I'm saying? It is to learn through process that that is

everything. The process is it. Like you can ask me for another take and another take or whatnot. And I was like, there's no perfect take, right? There will be a take that I'm like, all right, that was a good one. I like that one. So I know if we don't get anything else, I know I got that one at least. But like, there's times where you can ask me I could do it over and over again. And then I'm like, all, we got to make the day. So that's solid too.

But like each time is an opportunity for me to do the thing that I love. Yeah. So it's like, there's, I try to resist the idea of being frustrated and be like, no, I signed up for this shit. This is the fun part, right? And so I want them to find something that they have an equivalent level of joy where whether anybody sees them doing it or not, they know they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. Like, I hope they don't have a lingering thought in their head about, like, is this it for me?

Like, is this what I... Like, I feel like what you said, Chris, when that revelation happens, it's almost inignorable. You're like, no, no, no, this is it. And you have to listen to that thing. and go. Yeah. I hope my kids also just are aware of creating their own idea of success or what success looks like or just how they define it individually

and to not feel burdened that they have to measure some version of success alongside me and their dad. You know, it's like I don't want them to, my husband and I talk about this a lot. That's a good one. I don't, I am incredibly lucky to have found the success that I have in my life. I am by no means there are people that are far more successful at what we all do than I am. But I don't want, I don't want my kids to look at what I do or what their father does and say like, oh, we were. just lucky.

I want them to realize the work that we put into it. But I don't want them to feel burdened by not achieving some perceived level that's equivalent to like where I've found myself or where Taylor has with whatever path they choose in life.

I mean, I'm not sure that either of the kids or any either. The boys, just because I know them a little more older than Lou. But I'm not sure either of them are are going to be artists, but if they choose to be, especially, I hope that they don't feel. That's a good point. You know what I mean?

Notaryity has anything to do with success. Well, sure. Or if for some reason they don't achieve whatever level of success they believe I've achieved that they've somehow failed or that I don't want them to feel like burdened by that. Sure. Sure. I have a question. It's not a hot take, but I want to ask for a clarification of terms and for definition.

what, because you used it twice, how do you define luck? What is luck? Because you said, I'm lucky twice. And I'm pushing back in the gentle way, but like, what is luck? How is it luck showed up in your life? I feel like it's, what did they say, the marriage of opportunity and preparation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I do feel that way.

Yeah. Like what sets me apart from any other success? I'm sorry, talented person out there. Sure. I happen to be in the right place at the right time. I am not negating that I haven't worked hard for it, that I, do you know what I mean? But I absolutely believe that a huge part of why I sit in this chair today has to do with luck. Yeah.

What do you think about luck? How do you define the same thing? Yeah. I used to talk about, you know, my acting career as. Just like we all show up to a sandwich shop and we all take a number. Okay. And, you know. Sometimes your number's called?

247. Geez. All right. Well, they just called 36. I guess I got to. You got to wait for my sandwich here. Yeah. In the meantime, I guess I'll think about what I want to order.

Right. The metaphor falls apart pretty quick. But it's about persistence. Yeah. You know, there are. There are people, you know, by my quote unquote, egotistical estimation, who are less talented than I am that are more successful. And there are people that I have encountered who are way more talented than I am. Yeah.

Who don't have the same notoriety. Yeah, yeah. Or that I have. Yeah. And so what's the difference? What's, it's, it is, there's a certain amount of preparation. There is a certain amount of training. Yeah.

And then when the opportunity arises, are you prepared? Right. You know, and there have been plenty of opportunities that have arisen that I've not been prepared for. Okay. And it didn't work out for me. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And for, for, the thing that I've said it in here before, but the thing that I think about when I get a role is like, every role that I do get has everything to do with me, and every role that I do not get has nothing to do with me. Sure. The things that need to align.

Yeah. For me. God, I really hope I don't look like the casting director's ex-husband. Or, you know what I mean? Sure. Or I hope the person they're partnering me with isn't five foot one. Yeah. Right.

You know what I mean? Like, there's all of these things that go in that are by chance. Yes. Like, not necessarily luck by the proper definition. But there's so many things that need to go right. Yeah. Do you take objection to that idea? No, no, I don't.

I think what I, my mom used to always, like, talk to me about luck, and she would have this thing about, I don't even know if mom's definition even works for me. I think I'm more sort of like in a quantum field, sort of image and reality place in my life. And where like the life that you see, the outpicturing of the life that we live, is just a reflection of the image that you already have in your head.

And so in that same sort of RAS way, you know, we find what we're looking for sort of thing. And I think for me, because success has never been attached to a particular achievement of something, but just the work itself, the work itself and the ability to make a living to live off of, right? I don't want to say like I do it for free, but the ability to make a living, but not necessarily have to have, you know, all the things in the world.

I feel like we find what we're looking for. And I feel like that clarity of thought that you had at age six leads to a certain life, right? Like nobody was going to tell you that it wasn't going to be so. You're like, this is what I'm going to do. And I think there is something about that clarity of thought and vision that creates its own life. if that makes sense. Sure. Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah. Because I think for most people, I believe, we allow the doubts to shroud that level of clarity to the point where it's like, maybe I didn't really think that. Maybe I wasn't actually, maybe that was never intended. You know what I'm saying? And they sort of like talk themselves out of it. It's easier to accept if we have some control. Do you know what I'm saying?

But I do think that there's something about a six-year-old girls like, this is it. There was something about a 20-year-old Brown was like, this is what we're going to do. Like, once that choice is made, I feel like that is part of the creation of luck. Right. Also. Okay.

I like that. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all I'm saying. There's ownership and the luck. Yeah. Well, the dedication to never-ending preparation. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, because it's not the end. Each audition is a new preparation. That's what it is. You know what I mean? That thought process is, is the beginning of something. It's not the end of something.

Sure. Do you know what I mean? I'll make it this way. Back in the day, when I'd be at home and be, well, pray for so-and-so. What are we praying for? Just pray that they, da-da-da-da. And then folks would sit and they would pray. And I think that there is extreme power in prayer.

But I feel like prayer is the beginning of something. If you're using prayers like the end of something, like whatever it is that you're doing is going to inspire some kind of, kind of action. And it is the action that comes from that prayer, which is the thing that you really need to pay attention to, because I feel like the prayer in and of itself,

if you're just sitting there and nothing else comes from it, then I don't know how authentically you really prayed. That's interesting. Interesting. Hot take. Hot take. No, no. Not so hard.

I've always been intrigued by the idea of, in the Midwest, South, even the church I grew up in, praying for other people. Uh-huh. Yeah. And especially when it's public. Yeah. I was like, what's going on here? And we pray for Daniel, that he gets another job,

that he gets his life together in front of, like, in front of people. Yeah. And let's hope he has a wife soon and some kids. Yeah, like, I've seen it happen. Okay. You have seen it happen where it's like people, Very specific. Putting their hopes on someone else in the form of prayer that's always,

that maybe has nothing to do with what you're talking about. It's just reminding me that the idea of connecting with that unity can be a very personal, but also telling thing. Again, I don't want to get to you. I want to talk about success. I get offline with you on this one. And the Lord said unto me. Offline with you on this one.

Let's talk about the end. The end of life. Well, one of the things that popped into my mind, I have the same feeling about a little bit of everything, Taylor's song. Ah. Okay. That song is the idea of success.

Oh. The message of that song. Or the song that I looked up, there's a song by the Abbot Brothers called No Hard Feelings. Okay. One of these songs that I was like, oh, that, if this, I'm just going to read the lyrics here,

when my body won't hold me anymore, and it finally sets me free, will I be ready? When my feet won't walk another mile and my lips give their last kiss goodbye, will my hands be steady? When I lay down my fears, my hopes and my doubts, the rings on my fingers, and the keys to my house, with no hard feelings.

and to live a life that amounts to no hard feelings when I leave it. Not from me to anyone else or from anyone else to me, those hard feelings. That's pretty succinct. The song is just right on the nose. You're like, wow, okay, there it is. Some of the questions in our format we're talking about, like, at the end, of your life, like, what would you want people to say about you? Or to, blah, blah, blah.

I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't, it doesn't matter to me almost what people say when I'm gone or when I, you know, at my funeral or whatever the thing is. But to leave the world with no hard feelings is an interesting concept. I like the concept. I always, when I think about it, Sterling Brown, Jr. And like so many, the nature of memory becomes more femoral as time passes.

And remembering specifics is hard to sort of remember, right? But the feeling that he left me with of being loved unconditionally is a feeling that won't go away. Right. Like, it's just, it's like, it's eternal, right? And I hope, my mom used to say this thing when I would go spend the night over somebody's house and I try to tell my kids and I hope they're doing something of it although I think we can all do better. I was like leave things better than you found.

Yes. You know what I'm saying? And she would say if you leave things better than you found them you'll always be asked back. That's it. That's pretty much what I try to do. Just try to leave it a little bit better than you found it. Actors who don't, and I'm sure you guys are in the same camp as me, I've heard this from certain people in the trailer who don't like hang up their clothes when you're done at the end of the day. And man, don't let people clean up shit for you. You know what I'm saying? That is your number one.

Here's my question, though, because I don't hang up some things. Something, if they need to be washed, you can lay them close next to the shoes so they can pick them up and do it. I fold and put everything in one spot. But I thought they was all getting taken off the hanger anyways. Sometimes I think they stay on the hanger.

I put things back on the hangar. There are certain things. There are certain things. In our industry, there are certain things in our industry that you never see anybody else do. Of course. And so you're like, what do we do here? And I was like, I just put everything here. If they gave me socks or underwear, I'm not putting them back on the hangar.

I've used them and they've been close to my body. Dirty, sweaty shirt? If it's dirty and sweaty, I may fold it up and put it on the floor. But sometimes I just hang it back. You put back underwear? Do you just take those home? I give them back. Oh, I take them home.

I wear them home. I'm like, I'm wearing underwear. You can buy some other underwear. Got it. You don't want to wash my dirty underwear. Ew. Yeah. I would.

I'd take it in some right. What? What did you say? I always take that home. Socks? No, always. Really? Undergar mitts?

Yes. Yeah, but your underwear probably fit differently than my underwear. Not a bra, but like underwear for sure. I'm like, that's intimate. I'm not. Yeah, yeah. Not underwear. It's not as close.

Not doing that. Yeah. Aren't they washing the clothes every night? But by the way, I usually, like, there's very few times. They only provide underwear if it's like a dress, like a certain, you know what I mean? Like a slip dress. Then they have the underwear. I think that this episode of this podcast has been a success.

I think it's been an absolute success. It is, you know what? The career, I think, is, success is about life is about, I don't know, I said it at the road. So like the relationships that you have, like when I think about the milestones that I've achieved and they've been numerous and I've been deeply appreciative and they're awesome. I'm not going to be able to take any of those awards with me.

I was going to say in the casket, but I'm going to be cremated, right? But I do know, I know that the love goes forward, right? Because I still feel Sterling Brown, I still feel Lurline Banks, who is Arlene Brown's mom. I still feel Andrew Jacob Dare, who's my buddy who passed away the year that we graduated from school. Like, I still feel their presence, right? And so I think obeying that thing, that's still small voice inside of you that is guiding you towards your own truth, right? Because he who can name the way, doesn't know the way. The Taoism is my path is different than yours, is different than yours, is different than yours.

And you got to listen, got to that thing, man, that says like, oh, this is for you. And whatever that thing is for you, man, the greatest gift you can give to yourself is to listen. That's it. That purpose. Yeah. Good convoy. That was us. Chat.

Chat. Oh, sorry. Chat was us, dog. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith.