That Was Us - If Jack Survived | "After the Fire" (417) with Pamela Adlon

Episode Date: January 20, 2026

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 4, Episode 17: After the Fire. While in therapy, Randall begins to imagine what life might have looked like if Jack had survived the house fire, revealing just how differently the Pearsons’ lives could have turned out. This week on the podcast we also have a very exciting guest join us in studio, the one and only Pamela Adlon! Pamela talks about her time playing Dr. Leigh on the show, what she remembers about working with Sterling in her scenes, fun memories from filming, her hilarious Oprah story, and so much more! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Make home the best part of life. Head to https://cozyearth.com and use our code TWU for up to 20% off. -Buy four cartons and get the fifth free, at https://davidprotein.com/thatwasus. David has officially launched nationwide at Walmart. Humans aren’t perfect, but David is. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:32 Discussion 00:49:21 Interview 01:30:31 Outro Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of that was us, we're diving into season four, episode 17, after the fire. While in therapy, Randall begins to imagine what life might have looked like if Jack had survived the house fire, revealing just how differently the Pearson's lives could have turned out. Gang. Final two. This episode scrambled my brain. How so? Just all of the different, I mean, it's not just different timelines. It's hypothetical scenarios.

Yeah. Timelines all happening in one mentally old person's brain. Yeah. This is interesting. This episode is probably the most upsetting to my wife. Why? We'll get to it. Okay.

Because it's not for the same reasons why I think it's upsetting to me. Yeah. But there's upsetting things that happen. I think it was upsetting for our audience, too. Sure. I'm telling you, it was upsetting to watch because it's just like, what? Why are we doing that? Because at first, at first it is not revealed that this is a therapy exercise.

Well, it does. It starts with Randall, like, it opens with Randall in the therapist's office talking about how he can't stop thinking about his conversation with Kevin since he mentioned it and how, and he wonders what life would have been like if his dad hadn't died. And then it does sort of seem like we go. to a vision of that. Kind of. Yeah, but without explanation, at first.

I'm telling you, like, because I had, we're in that foggy area of, it really blindsided me. Yeah. It's, like, scrambled me up. Yeah, because at this point, I don't think we've, like, heard a prompt yet from her, like, asking the questions. I think it starts to, that kind of, like, after we see one scenario sort of play out, mostly is when she's like, well, hold on. Right.

And then she starts to question things. So I can understand how it's a little like, wait, is that. this wish fulfillment, this is strange. What is the show doing? Yeah. Are we actually doing this? Are we, yeah, like. Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Because for me, I felt like it was a, we re-echoed what had happened at the end of 416. Yeah. With the top of 4-7, with Niles saying like that, so help me God, if you go in there, I'll come in there and grab you myself, right? And so that, that happens. Jack decides not to go in. Family's okay, right? Like, it begins with that.

He's had minimal smoke inhalation damage since he didn't go into the fire. Yeah, you see them coming to greet the kids at Miguel's. Yeah. In the same way that they went to Miguel's, like, because mom and dad went to the hospital to get his burn tended to. Yeah. And then this is interesting. So I want Mandy speak on this one. Like the idea of like things being put in perspective that life could have ended, you know, that there are things that I've been holding on to that, you know, I may have taken to the grave or whatnot.

It sort of is the prompt. Yes. Right? Let us keep in mind, even though the audience doesn't know this at this point necessarily, but in my mind, it's like, Randall's imagining of what would have happened. Right. Yes. Right. So I'm curious, like, for you guys in the playing, because I guess you can't play what's inside somebody else's head. You have to kind of play what's on page. The reality of, like, something's really there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Something's really happening.

Right. And so, yes, this life altering event prompts Rebecca to confess to Jack. She, in fact, knows William, saw William, has seen him since Randall's been in their family. Yeah, they've been dating. They've been having a relationship. And he wasn't well. Yeah. She sort of has to couch it in the fact that he was an addict. Yeah.

His reaction is one of just anger. Yeah. Well, no, not first, right? Not, not, but it is. He's upset. He's upset. And he says, like, you've known this. And then he looks at dad, and he's like, well, you, you,

You guys have known this? And he's like, your dad just found out like five minutes ago. Right? And he's like, you know what? I don't want to talk about it anymore. And he's like, I'm going to go meet him. And then Jack is like, come on, I'll take you. I'll help you.

Yeah. And he's like, all right. Cool. So they go meet William. Yeah. Right? Knock on the door and young, young Randall Seafus Jones opens. Yeah.

It's got the, got a little fro action going on and everything. and in this conversation that they have with each other, like, he welcomes him in. Welcomes him in, right? Jack is sort of clocking out a guy as he seems like a fairly nice guy, but it also seems like the nose is a little sniffy and there's a little shake, there's a quiver, that's going on there. But he was happy to meet his son and he's like, look, I actually have this thing that I never thought I'd be able to give to you or whatever, and it's a book of poems that says

poems for my son. Is that what it says? Yeah. And it's a beautiful sort of moment, right? In this timeline, he gets to learn that he was never not wanted. That is correct. Yes. Right. That is, in this fantasy.

Yes. Yes. William basically tells him about his mother and how he just felt so ill-equipped to handle a baby on his own. That's not what he ever wanted, but that Randall was never not wanted. He was very much a wanted baby. Yeah. Because the other part of the.

about the mom is that, you know, she wasn't addict, but then she got pregnant, she cleaned herself up, you know, and then you were born on old habits were hard to kick or whatnot. I didn't know the first thing about raising a child myself. I didn't feel equipped, but you were never not born. Yeah, right? Exactly. So he's riding back with his dad and he's saying like, you know, dad, can we go back next week? And he's like, I don't know, man. Like, I don't know if that's a good thing to do or not. And he's like, what do you mean? He's like, I kind of get the feeling that guy's still using and he's an addict and I don't know if it's the right environment for you to be in. And Randall says, but you're an addict.

Hmm. Which was a really a turn that like I'd forgotten about. Yeah. In terms of like, well, look, I don't judge you over like the worst part of yourself. So why would you judge him? So why are we judging him? And it becomes this wonderful thing with these two dads sort of go on this journey of healing together, going to, I don't know if AA and NA crossover or whatever. I guess that's, yeah.

Sure. And they go to meetings together and they sort of become clean. He becomes sort of like a fully enfranchised member of the family. Yeah, he's integrated into the family. Like he decides not to go to Howard because he's like, well, I just want to be close to you so we can spend more time or whatnot. And during this whole thing, Rebecca, right, when he goes off to college or whatnot, he's like, well, you sure you don't want me to ride with you? And he's like, well, you've only got room for like two in the car and it's full of boxes. Yeah, so mom has been fully kind of given a back seat in Randall's life.

Yeah. It's so interesting to see the shift. Like, in his mind, if dad had survived and all of this had sort of unfolded this way, Mom would have been persona non-grata. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She really... Punished forever. Yeah, kind of.

I mean, even Jack says, like, he'll come around, you know what I'm saying, just give it time. He still meets Beth. He said, we've got a roof rack. Yeah. He still meets Beth. They still come home for that sort of family dinner, like with everyone being home from college. Great echoes in this thing. Yeah.

From throughout the season. Great echoes. It's like these big milestone moments still happen. Yes. But Jack was just there. He was just there. She pulls out the hot sauce. He's a hot sauce.

Oh, give me that. Bring out over here. This is a great thing, right? Cornish hen was cooked correctly. Was cooked correctly. And any time. Finally. Yeah.

Finally. This is one thing in his fantasy. You know, that was a dream. All you ever wanted. That was a dream. It was a well-cooked Cornish game hen. Sorry. Rebecca was a lot of things, not a cook.

Every time she tries to chime in and contribute to anything that's happening. He shuts her down. Like, boom. Immediately. Yeah. And it takes Beth being like, hey man, can we talk-in- You're being a dick. Like, she called him a straight-up dick.

Like, you're being a dick. I bet you only get one of those on network television. For sure. Do you only get to say it twice? I bet you don't get to say it twice. Not in the same episode. You know what I mean? She tells him life is short, Randall.

It's too damn short, right? So they start talking about this story. I can't even really remember. It's something about pigs. And pigs? I don't remember. It's a family story that clearly has some sort of significance for everybody. For the Pearson's.

Yeah. Something with Kevin and Jack squealing and they were little kids or something. And it's something for their laughing and they're enjoying it. And he looks over and sees his mom. He's like, Mom, why don't you tell this part? You kind of tell it the best. So he gives her an inch. Give it an inch.

She'll gladly take it. Gobbles it up. Like, thank you. Comes in. Thank you for that. Sir. Thank you, son. Thank you for helping your poor mother in this time of need.

Totally. So then sort of it just goes on. He proposes to Beth, right? And then we get a chance to hear Jack's speech at the rehearsal dinner. Yep. Right? Jack and Rebecca and William at Tess's birth. Yep.

We see like everything, it's just like. It's not Rebecca just giving that little speech to the baby. Jack and William are both there. That's right. So it's, again, yeah, we're seeing these sort of famous to us kind of scenes of our show, of our series, but with the addition of these two gentlemen. It's cool. And this is what I love. This is, God bless Randall.

God bless him because it doesn't just extend to like, you know, what would have happened if you told this? It's like, now I get to make Christmas dinner with my dad because you told me and I got a chance to be around him for a number of time. And I can see that something's off. Something's going on. Something's going on with his stomach. What not? Oh, let's get in here. early, we got early detection of this cancer.

We saved the day again. Oh, my God. Wait, Taylor came in and was watching this party. He's like, oh, he saves him from his cancer night. Taylor's like, this is crazy. It's like, it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be. It's supposed to be very far-fetched.

Right? Then we jump from that. The family's together for like another holiday or whatnot. Mom can't find a phone. I'd have a moment with me and dad, because my dad's not going to miss this. And if my dad sees it and we see it and we see it together, We're going to do that. And that's when...

The therapist interjects. She's like, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's just stop right here. But I love that she's the like, audience and surrogate. She's like, oh, so you saved, you got him sober. You saved him from stomach cancer. And this is where, like, literally, I mean literally Pamela Adlon's voice is the perfect voice to chime in about.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah, totally. Let us also, like, take notice. of this, in this version, dad doesn't have any issues with substance abuse.

Yeah. Right? Or he's cleared it up, right? You know, it's all it's all dreaming. Water under the bridge, right? Okay. So she's like, dude, what are you talking about? Like, this is your version of what life would have been like if your dad had lived. And he's like, yeah.

And so he goes to commercial. And then he comes back, he's like, like, you asked me what my version was. This is it. This is. It's nose-colored, but it's my version. So then she goes, well, what scares you the most if your father had survived that night? So now we're going to take two.

So Vision two unfolds similarly, right? Except this time when Rebecca tells Jack about William, he is livid. You let our son's birth father and then lied about it for 17 years? Yeah. You were wrong. I can't even look at you right now.

I mean, like he goes deep. He cuts so deep. The Rebecca I know could never be this cruel. Yeah. Yeah, he's like. He sees Randall hearing the conversation. And she's like, Randall goes to be like, oh, my God. And he's like, I will take care of our son.

Does he say our son or my son? I can't remember. Our son. He says our son. Yeah. He says our son. It's better writing. No, you're right if he had said my son.

Yeah. Hot take. Rewrite. This is us rewrite. What? So the. experience of the scene. Curious, like...

I don't even really remember. Don't remember it. Okay. I don't. And I think at this point, like, Milo and I had so many of these, like, well, not so many, but over the course of the series, we'd had these kind of, like, heated scenes that, like, you know, it was like a fun color to, like, add to the mix. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, but, yeah, it was upsetting. It was upsetting because this is Rebecca's biggest regret in life, right? And so to have this like, this version fully fleshed out of like telling Jack and it's, it would also be her deepest fear, right? His reaction being something along these grounds and these lines that it was, gee, it was not fun, not fun to play that. You know, it's like, wow, the love of my life and the other love of my life, both hating me in equal measure for the same thing is like, is devastating.

All being imagined by the same person. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, he wouldn't have liked it either. Okay, they go to meet William. He tells him, like, you know, I was left at a fire station at a certain point in time. And he goes, I don't think I'm your son. And he goes, no.

No, not my son. I never had a kid, closed the door right in his face. No. And that, another possibility. Just watching that. That was a gut punch to Randall in a way that like, oh. So then, so Jack tells him, he's like that he has a father, right? Like, whatever happened there, like, you still have a father.

I'm here. And Randall says, instead of like sticking around, like, I think I'm going to go to Howard. I'll go early, you know. So that part of his life, the need to be close to family has sort of erased. Erased in this particular version of his reimagining. And something about this fraternity that he winds up pledging. There's like, they call him the divine nine. There's like of black African American fraternities and sororities.

and Omega Sci-Fi is my wife's brother a fraternity. She's a member of Delta Sigma Theta. So, like, they're brothers and sisters with Omega-Syphae, the purple and gold. And they're known for being very tough. The cues is what they call them, they call them cue dogs. And they'll... Tough in what way? A lot of NFL players are, like, cues.

They're known for being very jacked. Okay. Like just like probably the most soldierous, is that a word? Soldier-like, the most soldier-like of any of the other. Like the alphas are known to be brainy. Regimented. Regimented. The alphas are known to be very brainy.

The capers are known to be ladiesmen. They twirl these red and white canes and they're like very sort of day. But the cues are like, like, that's an important thing to sort of say like why he may have gravitated towards this fraternity in particular and this imagining of his life. Got it. There are nine, and you said divine nine, there are nine of these fraternities? Fraternities and sororities. So there's Omega-Sci, Kappa Alpha, Phi, Phi Beta Kappa, and Alpha, yeah, Alpha Phi Phi Alpha. Are these only at HBCUs or are they?

No. My wife pledged at Stanford. At Stanford. Yeah. Were you in a fraternity? No. Okay. I thought about pledging a fraternity for a moment, but I decided there wasn't enough people

who were interested in the fraternity that I was interested in. the time that I wanted to pledge, so I ultimately decided not to, right? Got it. But it is a big part of like black life even at a predominantly white institution. Yeah. That you were thinking about? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. So he ends up going to school here, and this becomes like a huge part of his life and his identity. You can tell. Yep. He comes home from college. They had that same dinner. There's no Beth, obviously.

So he's by himself. Yeah, and this dinner is quiet. It's awkward. Like in comparison to that first one where there's so much mur, and joy and everybody's just free flowing. It is, yeah. Yeah. You can hear like a dud.

What's those things, Carl? Tumbleweed. Tumbleweed. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, I can hear a tumbleweed. I heard that. They come through, they go tumblewomen. And it's interesting because you got Jack drinking.

Yeah. Right? There is no Beth. There's no Beth. Like you said. But Jack is, you can tell he is holding this information and what has transpired in their family over Rebecca. Yeah.

They are not close. No. Things are very frosty between them. Also, this is... The wardrobe's subtle change for Kevin and his decision to stay at home. Because he's working at Lundy now. Because he's working at Lundy and he's working with his dad.

And he's like at a button up. Like, I don't know. Like, it's a very sort of like, he's that dude. Yep. He's the dude who Randall thinks he is in regular life. Now it's Kevin is sort of occupying that space. Yep. And Randall is aloof.

Like, even though, like the way I was played it was just like, I'm here, like, I'll listen. I don't really have much to contribute, but like, and he gets up halfway through dinner and he's like, you know, I thought I could do it. I can't do it. Like, I got to go. Yeah. I got to get back to school. I'm leaving early. And mom's upset about it and dad's just sort of like trying to plead with him and he's gone. And I think he and Jack ultimately like blames you. Oh yeah. Like in the scene. He's like, You couldn't leave well enough and alone, something like that. In the mind of one man.

There you go. All the blame. There you go. Comes back. We go now to another rehearsal dinner. Not for Randall and Beth. It's for Kev and Sophie. And Jack has a drink in his hand as he's making the toast.

So it's festive, but it's like, oh, this is here, right? Works with that. It's a different version of Randall. Yeah, he was suave. Oh, yeah. Look at those earrings. He's got his earrings in. You know what I'm saying?

He's got the mustache sort of thing. He's a cube, right? And he's with a woman that we've never seen before. Yeah. This is the part where Ryan Michelle Baffey was like, all right, because it happens twice in this episode. And not even like the first one, she was like, all right, so he's dating this sister who.

And so there's a conversation that happens. He's like, look, he gives her a quick kiss and said, let me go, you know, say hi, what not. We can get out of here. And he goes to talk to Kevin. Show my face. Show my face. You go show my face.

That's what I say at, in industry events. Let me just go. I just need to let, they need to know that I was here. Not with your family, right? So he's with a TA, and he's like, yeah, it's nothing serious. Yeah, he's a professor, right? He's a professor. He won some teaching award.

He's doing well. Yeah. And he's like, you know, he's like, yeah, it looks like you're doing it. I was like, yeah, she's just a TA. It's nothing serious. He's like, it's never serious with you as a brother. Yeah. Ooh, who, who, who, who, who, who, right?

Then Kate rolls over. She's got baby. We don't see her husband. Yeah. Yeah, we do. At the end. Do we see? At the end.

At the end. At the end. At the end. At the end. Yeah, yeah. But there's this sort of, like, wonderful spirit of, like, we got this get together that we're going to do at the cabin. Like, you can make it and come through.

And he's like, you know, let me check my schedule. Right. I'm not sure. And, like, you feel the air. Just go out of the room. Because it's so delightful. about her, she's not in the drama. Right.

Right. She can bring something that like Kev, the drama exists between these two brothers. Right? But she's like, hey, come on, let's get together. Like, it would be great to see. Like, even at the end of the dinner scene, brother and sister, like, you don't have to go. Don't leave. Don't leave.

Don't go. Right? Then, like, Kev sort of has it out with him in this version of things where he says, Randall says he thinks he'll think about it. Kev calls him out. out surprised he actually came to his rehearsal dinner in the first place, right? And then Rebecca intervenes, right, and says, like, do we have to do this now? And then how does that, how does that go? Because does that, do I just leave or what? I do remember in that same scene, your girlfriend,

the TA is like, you are an enigma because, like, we've been together for, or I've known you for like a year and a half or whatever. You've never so much has mentioned these people. And now it's important for us to like be here at this wedding. She's like white people. Yeah. You have white family. You said, your dad is kind of a white zaddy, but maybe that's why you didn't mention it to me. But like the idea that Randall is so divorced from his family. Yeah. It's crazy. So then we see Randall at school grading some papers in his black muck turtleneck, I guess.

You know what I'm saying? With this chain, you guys. Oh, you got to wear that? I think I had to turn it around because I always wear it on this side. But with this chain, like on the outside. And he sees this box from William Hill. And it says that your father died from stomach cancer or whatnot, but he wanted you to have these things. And we see inside the box hat.

We see these newspaper clippings that he's been keeping up with Randall's life that Randall didn't know about. And we see this book of poems for my son, right? And then the next shot is Randall carrying the box outside of the office, whatnot, walking down the hall and dropping the box into the trash can without looking back. And Rye was like, come on, bro. Like, for real, for a real? Like, that's what's going on here? Like, and even for me, like, I was like, oh, because I remember Ken, who, no, no, who's our director on this episode? It was Roxanne Dawson.

I remember Roxanne. And I remember saying, like, she's like, you know what, maybe you just, like, take the box, you stand, you stand there with it for a moment and you decide to just put it in the trash can. And I said, well, what if I just don't stop? what if I just keep walking? And she's like, try it. And she's like, okay, that worked. Like, to just show that like, you know what, man, you had your chance. Like, there's the forgiveness doesn't exist inside of me.

No. You know what I'm saying? A hardened. Hard. Version. Very, very, very, very hard. Yeah. And that's when Pamela turns back in, right?

Well, uh... Well, no, she, Jack wants to have him home for Thanksgiving because he says your mom is sick. So wait. This is the fart. Okay. Where my wife is like, okay, okay. Because he's, he has another TA who comes who's at the house, like wrapped in a towel, right? Cubs fresh out of the shower.

She talks about how she just finished grading these papers. She's got great tomorrow, right? So he gives her another kiss and just like clas around the butt. And this is when Ryan calls nasty Randall. She's like, I don't like an old nasty-ass Randall kissing all these young ass women and shit. Like, no problems with it. He's like, oh, nasty, nasty-ass-ass Randall. I don't like this dude.

I don't like him either. Yeah. He's not nice. It's the dark side. It's the dark side. Yeah. It is. Randall's biggest fear.

Yeah. This is what this one is. What are you afraid of? You know what I'm saying? And then dad calls. Nasty assy ass. He's like, look, man, I was hoping you could come back for Thanksgiving this year. You should be with family, you know?

And he's like, Dad, we've already gone through this thing. And he goes, well, your mom's not doing it. doing well, Randall. And there's something that happens in that moment. They're like, you know, it is interesting. The perspective that you can get like, all right, I can be mad at you the whole time. And then I find out that like time could be limited. So even in this particular situation, the next thing we see is Randall coming home, mom opening the door, and they just sort of melt into each other.

Right? So even though it took a much long. longer inversion two. Six years, yeah. There's still some sort of reconciliation that ultimately- There is still ultimate forgiveness for mom. There's still ultimate forgiveness for mom, right? So now we're back in therapy.

Randall's like, I don't want to do this exercise no more. Yeah. Like you had me do it, I'm done. You're aware? Oh, so she asks him, she goes, you're aware that you don't control the outcomes of every situation in your life? And he goes, yeah, I know that, right? Very head sort of thing, not necessarily like here.

Yeah, I know that. What are you talking about? Who can control every situation in life? But he's like, how secretly I can try? I'm not trying. Doesn't mean I'm not going to try. You know what I'm saying? And she says, why are you so sure you could have stopped him when she's talking about...

Saving his dad? His dad. He's like, well, I could have gone to the hospital. Like, what if I had been in the hospital with him? What if I had insisted on going with my mom and dad? And my mom still left to go get that candy bar, make a phone call or whatever. And I had been in the hospital and noticed the signs of him having a heart attack. I could have stopped him.

And she's like, well, hold on. Didn't you say he died of a widowmaker heart attack? Yeah. There's no way. That's not even a thing. Like, do you know like a cardiac, you know, like therapy or whatever? Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

It's just like she had a counter for every defense that he had. Yeah. Yeah. He then later says like, he says, that's what I do. I fix things. And then later on he says, yeah, well, at least I could have spent. the last 20 years knowing that I tried. Right.

And I think that is like one of Randall's, like... His wound? Huge open, gaping wound. It's like, if I don't give it 100% towards everything, you know what I'm saying? Then I live with the idea that like, what else could I have done? Like, what else could I have done? Right? Whether it is justified or unjustified.

Like, it's in his head. That's how he's wired, right? Yeah. And she ultimately, there's a lot of good bars in this one. I got to give it up to who wrote this. It's those regrets. It's not even, you know, it's partially, you know, self-centered fantasizing.

It's partially, you know, that control, that almost OCD level. Of control, yeah. That's fueling all of this anxiety. But, like, there are those life regrets, those what-ifs that you're like, it doesn't even matter. I can't shake it. It's even worse that there's nothing I can do about it. Yeah.

Like, because if I could, I would. Right. You know what I mean? Like, there are certain things I have three or four. Yeah. That aren't like this level of like saving someone's life, but like, oh man, why did I go left when I could have gone right? Yeah. Because now that's never going to happen.

Like, it's never going to. Yeah. I've told you that story. I've told you a John Prine story. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's just like, what were you thinking? Yes, yeah.

Like, what were you thinking? And now it's just not going to happen. Wait, what is this? Maybe season one or two, I told this story. But it's just like I went, John Prine, who has some songs on our show. He's an old folk musician. Yes. Hero of my father.

Probably the musician I've seen live the most in my life. Okay. A dozen times I've seen him live. One of my favorites, right? And through the show, got to meet him, got to introduce my dad to him, all this hero stuff. And like he, his wife invited us to the, to the New Year's Eve show at the Grand Ole Opry. Rachel was pregnant. We're like, we'll have a baby moon in Nashville.

Yeah. At the Grand Ole Opry. And John Prime. As guests of John Prime. And then at the end of his show, we're sitting, sitting off to the side of the stage with all his friends and family. At the end of the show, his wife or somebody, and it was dark, I couldn't see. She's like, anybody who wants to go, go, go. I was like, what's happening?

Like go out on stage. Everyone went out on stage because I know this because I've seen his shows. Yeah. Everyone goes out on stage just saying Paradise for his closer. Okay. And Rachel was like, go, go, go. And I'm like, no, not me. They don't mean me.

If I go out there, if I go out there, someone is going to go, no, no. Not you. And that's going to be embarrassing. And I'm going to have to slink back into the wings. Yeah. And then halfway through, I'm sitting there. And it is a beautiful moment. I'm standing alone in the wings of the wings of the wings of the.

the grandel opera with my pregnant wife, who were cuddled up, it's New Year's Eve, beautiful. But then after it was over, I was like, why didn't I do that? Why didn't I? That was my chance. And six months later.

And six months later, he dies of COVID. Wow. And it's those moments of like, well, shit. Yeah. You know, it's not like I won't have a chance to sing on a big stage again, or like, it's just that very specific thing.

And that's the type of moment that somebody who has anxiety focuses on or can get latched onto. And something like the death of your father, you know, we're like... It's so big. It's so large. Why didn't I do anything? Yeah. I did nothing. Right.

Yeah. It's not taking into account the trauma of what the family lived through that night, escaping their house burning down. Like, there's so much in that, like, yeah, it's... Yes. It's a lot to unpack. There's something I wrote down here in response to our therapist where he says that because I tried with William. I think he feels more comfortable with William's passing even because he was able to give

some level of effort that he feels responsible for not having done with his dad. Right? And he talks about, I think I lost two fathers and that there's pain attached to that. And then she sort of pivots. And she says this whole exercise began with the disagreement with your brother over your mother's care, right? There's even like a mention of it. And he says, like she lied to me, but I've forgiven her.

You know, we've moved on. And she goes into this line of thing. And this got, I remember reading this and being like, what? She goes, why do you think you're in my office right now? Yeah. Right? And he's like, what do you mean? you come highly recommended.

And she's like, do you know how many black men that I get? When they have an option? When they have an option. And he's like not many. Like most black men don't choose me. But like I am the same race, gender, and probably around the same age as your mom was when your father died. Right.

And in both scenarios, you ultimately wind up redeeming her. But have you ever confronted her about the situation? Like, did you choose me possibly, right? handle because you have something unresolved that you need to work out with her. And you can see it even on my face like, oh, shit, you're blowing my mind right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of wonder, I know it's cinematic and it's good writing, but I wonder therapeutically if that's a move that a therapist would make.

Yeah, of calling that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, she calls that out, but then she does say, because he says, like, what do you think is, what advice are you proposing right now? And she says, I don't give advice. I'm a therapist. So I have a statement and a question, right? And the statement is in both of your scenarios, you ultimately redeem her.

The question is, have you actually ever confronted her about this whole thing, right? Which is an interesting way to put it. I've never heard it that concisely about, like, what a therapist is doing. Right. So then this is one of the most interesting parts of the show in this season. for me and how to set it up because he goes home. He sees his wife. He tells his wife, like, I think I have some like unresolved, you know, issues with mom

over withholding, you know, Williams' presence, right? Yeah. Like, shit, I could tell you that big dog. How much are paying this person? Yeah, yeah. And they have a moment of lightness and then just the sweetest kiss. And I was like, what's that? What's that for?

And she's like, I'm proud. of you, right? And you're like, man, Randall's about to like confront something that like, you know, he needs to confront and maybe there'll be some closure, some healing that he can receive from this whole thing. But then it cuts back and forth between the end of the therapy session and this phone call that he has with his mom, right? Now, in the therapy session, he's saying to the doctor, he's like, listen, a lot of the

stuff that you're saying right now makes a lot of sense. I've probably had some inkling in the back of my mind for a while. And I probably need to do something about it. But my mom doesn't have that much time, right? And I don't want to bring that back up. Like for me, like the priority right now is her being alive. And healthy. As healthy as she could be. Rather than me sort of like figuring out like these issues or frustration that I have right right he says like you know so and I'm doing this because we see you guys in your house having like a game night by the way let's talk about Pictionary. Let's talk about Mission to Mars. This, you got.

Taylor's like, what? Two lines? Hold on. Wait. You guys. Mission to Mars. You talk about how this, this, this, this, our writers craft a show. Like, you have something very, very serious happening. Like, like a therapy session, like a man on the edge of a breakthrough. And then you see like this jovial, just like the family gathering and everybody's enjoying life. Rebecca, enjoying being around her family. Exactly what she wants, right? This is exactly what she wants. She said she wants to spend her time doing.

And this dude, Tobias Damon, is playing pigeonary. And he's just drawn two lines up the thing in Michigan. And everybody's like, what, what is it? And the time goes up, he goes, mission to Mars. But it was like mission to Mars. Like there was like some gesture. As I was watching it, I was like, what was I doing here? I was like, did I show up?

And those were what was on the paper already? Did I draw that? Did they, was that in the script that Tobias just draws two lines? And I'm like, because one, I'm trying harder than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Toby is smarter than that. Yeah. Or he was just trying to make us laugh.

Like, I also. I think he's trying to get the clue. I also feel like I did a take where I drew, like, I drew, like, I drew, Mars and I drew a rocket that was too phallic. You know what I mean? Like I was like, you know, drawing essentially a testicles, a big penis, like going towards a ball. And they were like, that's not going to take two.

That's not going to work. Like I'm having memories of like me doing the two lines almost being like obstinate. Like I don't know this. Mission to Mars. It was great. It was so good. It took me out for a second. Yeah, yeah.

He's like, this doesn't make any sense. Even though it's not supposed to make sense. But your insistence afterwards, like, mission to Mars. Like, how did you guys not get that? How'd you miss that? Oh, no. Toby also has Alzheimer's. Toby's not doing well.

The perfect dictionary partner. That's what we learned in that particular moment. There's only flaw. In the midst of the joy, in the Friday, there's a phone call that Rebecca Gates. And it turns out to be from Randall. And Randall says to his therapist, cutting back and forth between the phone call, he said, look, I've already lost three parents. And I've beaten myself up for the two that I had in my life for, at least one that I could have done more for. But I have time now.

And I know I can do something for it. And I'm going to do whatever it takes to give her the most life that I can in this moment, right? Yeah, it was very funny. It was almost like a thank you very much for like all of this. Totally. But like I got it from here kind of. Like I have a game plan that you, I'm not even gonna tell you about because I know you would disagree with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So he gets on the phone. Sorry, I'm shaking. I'm shaking because it, this is, every once in a while you get these tasks that you, as a person, right, like, this is not good. What's happening. Yeah. Not okay. And as an actor, you're like, that you can't play.

that you can't you have to honor what this man is trying to do right and that is keep his mother alive by any means so he's talking to and he's like and a lot of the thrust of the conversation is about how he's been a good son yep you're been a good son and i've sort of like um forgiven or excuse things that could could have been hurtful or whatnot but you know chosen not to focus on those things and he says you know i don't ask for a lot yeah these are are all true statements. Instead of confronting Rebecca about the situation, he uses the situation as leverage.

Yeah. To get what he wants. To get what he wants. To rewrite history. To change what happened with both of his fathers. Yeah. Because in his mind, he's 100% clear. Like, she's going to live longer and a better life.

So before we just, to the whole thing, like, he says, I don't ask you for much, I need you to do this clinical trial. And he does it, like, tears, you know, like all. And it's even, it's interesting, like, in the playing of it, like, I believe what he's saying is true for him. And I believe that there is an error of desperation from it.

And he knows, it's against what she wants to do. But also knows that this is her Achilles heel. It's an Achilles heel. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry to bring that up. But for Rebecca, like, this is her deepest regret in life. And he knows this is, he knows exactly how to play these cards. He does. Nasty-assie-ass-Randle in real life, IRL.

Nasty-assie-S Randall. And he gets her. And he goes, I need you to say it. I need you to say that you're going to go to this clinical trial in St. Louis. It was a real, real horror movie. The way it's lit, you're lit like a villain? All by myself. You're lit like a villain in the dark.

In the dark. Calling in the, I need you to say it. Yeah. Say the words. And she does. And she does. Like quiet as can be with the mirth in the background. I'm like, mission to Mars.

And she just goes, okay. I'll do a clinical trial. I'll do a clinical trial. And that was it. I was telling Taylor, it was like, also not to like spoil the magic, but I was like, you realize when two actors are doing scenes like that, we're not talking to anybody? I was like, we're talking to an AD. He's like, what?

He's like, oh, there's never like, like, Sterling's already done his side and they play it. I'm like, really? Yeah. Rare. Ever. Well, you saw it. We saw it with Kevin and Sophie. The practical, like, inside and outside of the house.

Sure. That is so rare. Very rare. And that's what I was saying. And that's simply for the shot. It's not for a performance. But the fact that we had Milo's voice for that tape. Yeah.

That doesn't always happen. But that was magical. Yeah, that was. Yeah. But yeah, it was just somebody off camera going, I need you to say it. Yeah, exactly. The words?

Can you say the words? I will do the clinical trial. Yeah. Say it, Mom. I've been a good son. With a sweet AD, his job is not to be an actor. I've been a good son.

Stillman has a whistle to it. So sometimes when he's saying it, so I've been a good son. It's great. I love it. I'll say it too straight. I love Stilman. I love.

This is one of our first ADs. His name is Glenn Steelman. Also directed an episode of our show. Also directed an episode and it's also doing Paradise with me right now. And every once in a while, because first ADs have to run a tight ship. Sorry, just making sure we're good. And every once in a while Stillman will curse.

He's like, I need you guys to get this shit together and let's move. And I act like... Yeah, and that's when you know. And then I have an impersonation of Sam Jackson playing Glenn Stillman. And it's a lot of fun. I'm not going to go into the whole thing. Why not? Because it takes too long. I'm trying to stay on task.

Takes too long. We got time. We have 12 minutes. I'll do it later. I'll do it later. Because like the episode... He's not going to do it. I just want to say this.

And I'm curious to see like what the fact is. feedback was because I'm upset watching it. Like it was probably the most, well, between this and the next episode. Nasty ass, Randall. Yeah, it's an upsetting run. Nasty ass randong. I was like, oh, wow. I'm like, and then this is where we ended it going into the pandemic.

Yeah. Yeah, that's what we left people with. Yeah. That was intense. Yeah, we'll get into the next episode. We'll get into the next episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you want to rewatch it, you got tune in next week.

But we have a very special segment. We do. We're having a conversation live with my girl, who is an absolute right and a brilliant actor, beautiful human being. Pamela Adlin will be joining us. In the studio in the flesh. IRL people. So stick around, listen to a couple of these ads. We'll be right back with more.

That was us. More That was us after these words from our sponsors. There's a whole season of life. where your calendar is just kids' activities. There's tournaments, recitals, competitions, and suddenly you're traveling more weekends than you expected. Sterling, I feel like this is your life right now. This is my life.

I got a club soccer player. We go all over the place. Sometimes San Diego. We've gone to Vegas. Like, it gets real quick. I told you, my friend put it best. He said, when you have kids under the age of 10, that 90% of parenting is trying to find interesting places to eat your snacks.

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I got this co-host. No doubt. that can help me manage reservations, message guests, and be there on the ground, boots on the ground, so you're not trying to juggle at all from the bleachers. You guys, this is a life-changer, right? There's already enough things and people trying to reach you all the time

because you got your phone in your pocket, and all you want to do is be present. So the idea that somebody could handle that responsibility for you and you could make use of your space when families travel for those same activities, Staying in a home on Airbnb is often easier. Yes. The whole family can fit comfortably.

Everyone gets a real bed. You've got a kitchen and space to spread out instead of piling into one hotel room. Honestly, it is the only way we like to travel. But also, hosting can give you some extra cash towards that next trip or activity. Just a helpful boost while you're already on the road. If hosting appeals to you, but doing it alone doesn't. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. Do you guys know Chris Fleming, the comedian?

So I just saw him at Largo like three nights ago. He's an absolute genius. He is like a, he's like one of those freeway men. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The balloon man. Yes, yes, yeah. But he's like a ladyman because he's got with glasses.

Yes. Genius. Okay. So he said this is a lady man. He's a lady man. He would love him. But he was talking, he was like, this is how I feel about doing podcasts. And there's a picture of a snake being venomed in a glass, like all the venom.

And I was like. He's being milked. Yes, exactly. So when Sterling texted me, are you rolling? Yeah. Everybody, this is Pamela Adler. Pamela! She's coming in high.

When, do you guys use language here? Yes, whatever language do you like? When fucking Sterling texted me, he's like. like, yo sister, I'm like, oh, God. Oh, no. Don't say the P word. That already sounds like a podcast ask. It's such a podcast ask.

He said, he was like, will you come? Yeah. Not sister. I say sister a lot. Not family. I say sister a lot. He's my girl. Oh, yeah.

What did I say? Bam, bam. I was like, I cold chill went up my spine. Yeah. And the last podcast I did, Sam produced. Family trips. Are you serious? Yes.

Cool. And I was like, that was it. That was true. Hope all is well in your world. Wondering if you'd be open to being a guest in a heart. This is Us rewatch podcast. I didn't use sister in that particular thing. Yeah.

What did I say? You said, Hi, Sterling. Is Oprah going to be there and barrel through me to get to you? He told us this story. Please tell us this story. Please tell us this story. Please.

So, Pamela and I did. varieties actor actors on actors right um genius first of all like he chose me if anybody doesn't know who this woman is like shame why i don't i don't i think people know you i just want to just i mean like i just want to talk about like there's there's there's the voice overacting or whatnot like there's the writing that you do is a community this i you know i have uh Achilles 20 Achilles oh yeah that's why i was walking he put on something he put on his best shorts for you i put on my i wanted to show off the Good part of my leg. You missed the boot.

He had a walking booth for like two months. The crutches under the couch, yeah. But no, like, you talk about somebody who was equally parts hysterical, equal parts sexy? Yes. Which is why we've asked you here. You know what are you going to do? No, no. We talked about, all three of us were like in the last episode.

But like Chris was saying, he was like, dude, you want to talk about an acting crush or just like a crush crush? Yeah. Stop me guys. We all said it though. We all said it. I'm like, I would like some. Love you. Yeah, we love.

Love you. It's true. Like, he put on, listen, I'm not going to call him up. But like, he's, he's going to call me. He dressed up. He's going to call me out. This show, this is us has a way of populating our show with legends. Legends.

And it makes, it makes our world feel familiar to the audience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, why does this therapist feel like she's existed in my life for a long time? And it's because you have. You have. Love that. Yeah. You know?

That's cool. And we were really excited to ask you to come beyond because all three of us are kind of Pamela Adla. You guys, I think we all have that kind of thing that certain, I don't know. It's just like there is something that you can recognize in somebody where you like, oh, I want to, if I needed somebody to take me to the bathroom and hold my hair. that's what I call sex appeal right there but also there was crossover

because I had God bless the dead Ron Seafus he was on my show and we did an amazing and he played himself I just had him play Ron and I got

he got to use a little bit like of a salty kind of you know questionable thing I was like talk about my tits or something like that and he was like oh can we do that we were very close to the edge on that one I was like we do everything here it's all good and we had such a beautiful time it was it was actually incredible we shot at Western

costume and then I had him to do my I just did a podcast for the last season of better things So Ron came in and did my episode with me, and we chopped it up. He's an easy one to do that with. Wait, can I circle back to the Oprah of it all? Because I do, because I feel like the world has to hear the story. So you guys are doing the actors on actors. So Sterling chose me, like, my publicist, Kelly Bush Novak at IDPR, Total Queen. She said, you know, Sterling K. Brown, and I was like,

Yeah, because I wanted you to be in better things, but Lenny Kravitz ended up playing that part. It happens all the time. I get it. I lose that to him all the time. I know. Well, so, I mean, if he was in the game, you guys would be. He's Lenny Kravitz.

You know, we have different specialties. He does his thing, I do my thing. He's the Jewish version of you. Yeah. I don't think you realize. I've often heard that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. you guys would get on like a house on fire. But, oh, sorry. You're fine. There you go. This is us. A reference. A reference.

We love it. See, I think about what I'm doing before I do my homework. Yep. So anyway, I found out that Sterling chose me to do actors on acting so we would interview each other. And I was so honored. I was like, I can't believe anybody chose me. Like, they didn't get stuck with it.

me. Oh, come on. You know, but that's my, we all, sure, sure. Hello. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. I think we had to do photos first. Yeah. And we were in this studio and then we found out like, oh my God, you guys, Oprah's coming. Oprah. Yeah. She was interviewing like Ava DuVernay. They were interviewing each other for something. There was a buzz going on. And Oprah travels with like entrance music, right? You heard the music. It's not over a loudspeaker. There's a hum like a, like a Prius or a Tesla, you know? Like, you're like, is there music outside? Yeah. That's the car.

Yeah, Oprah's coming. Exactly. Oprah's coming. Yeah. Exactly. And so, we're my bees. Yeah. Sterling and I are taking, like, hot power couple pictures.

Yeah. Just don't even fucking understand. It's great. I love it. Like both of you peeking out from behind a tree. We're doing, like, our head shots from our childhood, whatever. Yeah. And then the door opens, and it's Oprah.

And I'm just like, uh, like my body. body. Sure. And she just goes right through me to Sterl. And I never even got to say hi to her. What? Thanks. Oprah. Awesome. She comes in and literally like, I don't even know what to do. This is my first time anything like this. All I hear is Sterling K. Brown. And I was like, oh. There it is. It was incredible. I have to say. She was like, she like held me lovingly. You know what I'm saying? Like she like, and she just got right up in my face. It was one of those. You're under the chairs. This shit is happening right now.

Like it wasn't absolutely awkward. And then after we were done, you were like, well, thanks, Oprah. I was like, oops. Miss? See you in Montefino. Yeah, exactly. It's Pamela. It was amazing.

Wee matanier. Yeah. Lou Lou Lou. Wee matanier. Sterling. Okay, I don't even remember the name of my character. What, Dr. Lee? That's right, you nailed it.

Oh, wow. Keep us on messaging. Well, no, wait, before you, let's not make it too crazy because this is one of the things that I always wanted to ask you about. And we talked a little bit, we talked a little bit about it while we were shooting because you, you're a creator, you are a writer. Would you say you're a writer first and foremost? Would you say you're a performer first and foremost? Like, in terms of how you identify within your artistry, like,

what do you call yourself? Because you do everything? But like, do you see yourself as one primarily over the other? Just like, I do it all. Are they all work together? I am, you know, as you know, I'm a single mom of three. And so you don't get to pick and choose. Yeah.

You've got to do the dishes. You've got to run the house and everything in between. So, you know, I feel like being, an actor first because that was the most attainable thing to me. And if this is helpful to the people who listen to your show, you always have to have a plan B and you can't just be myopic and have the one thing. Yeah. And so I'm very fortunate because I got to flex those muscles and build that within myself later on.

because I was purely an actor. I was just waiting for pilot season. Right. You know, I would be like, well, maybe... Something that doesn't exist anymore. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't that wild?

Completely. It's mind-boggling. Yeah, in a very short period of time, the industry changes in ways that we never would have anticipated when we started. No, it's always pilot season. That's exactly true. I was speaking to my daughter's boyfriend,

George, Rutledge, shout out. He lives in London. What of George? He's brilliant. he's a music manager and he works with Damon Albaran who's trying to make sure that artists get paid equitably

and we were just talking about how entertainment I said what are we going to do about Spotify and Gideon was like oh no mom I can't that's my entire life is woven into this thing and we were talking about

how entertainment is free now which is what everybody expects. Nobody expects to pay for their music or films or television or, you know, and I've always told my kids you've got to pay for travel, art, music, concerts, like that's what you save your money for. Restaurants, Spina. Right down the road, which is ridiculously amazing. Is this a restaurant?

Spina. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I never did a go. I know. I'll send you guys a list. Okay. Everybody's getting the list.

You're getting the list. You're getting a list. I feel like I am not one specific thing, especially since the industry is like exquisite corpseing itself and becoming something else. So, I mean, I love directing because I love actors. And I love writing and creating and adapting is a little bit harder for me, which is something that I've been doing because that's somebody else's thing. And, you know, my thing as a writer is the same for me as an actor, is the same for me as a

director. The feedback that I usually get is like, you know, but why are you doing it this way? People get afraid because I see things in a certain way and it just is easy. Yeah. And people can't trust because everything is starting to look exactly the same. Yeah. Including key art. Yeah.

Yeah. Like all the things that we loved so much. And like book covers. Every book cover, it's the same fauccaque pastel. With the same font or some variation of the same font. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the color.

Yeah. And the swirly, and I'm like, is it soylent green as people? Like, what is happening? Like, do we need to adjust to this? But you have a point of view and you trust it implicitly. Yes. And I think that's part of that thing that you're talking about. A lot of people, it's a copycat industry.

So you see something that works and you're like, well, let me do that other thing that works. And you're saying that like, yeah, but other shit works too. Right. Right. But that takes a certain level of trust. When did it take, when do you feel like you got to that? place. I got into my 50s. I mean, I had to wait a while. You ain't in your 50s. Stop it. Stop it, Mom. So just two years ago. I'm a sterling girlie.

I know, but when I got into my 50s is when I became a boss professionally. Yeah. I was already in my life. Sure. You know. The best of the world caught up. Exactly. Cool. And that wouldn't have happened. And if I, you know, you get certain windows in your life. Yeah. And you've got to recognize now it's time to be uncomfortable. I'm very good at being uncomfortable. I realized that for myself. A few years ago, I was like, oh, you know, I would go into things or go into a professional situation or a personal situation.

and I would steal myself. And I would say, you know, it's like being a monk. You know, those monks who used to look at the bent over man who's got all his muscles and his head. And they would concentrate and it would become a ball. Like, what am I? I'm talking about a real thing, right? They're sados, yeah. They're what?

Sadu's. I love that you know this. Chris knows everything. They focus. They dedicate their lives to discomfort. and turn discomfort into a meditation. So you just gave me a word for what I do. Because it's just like if you can be okay with that,

you know, how can you adapt yourself and not let it completely destroy you? So that is the way that I was able to kind of... Got to write this shit down. Right? Or we're recording it. We're recording it. Listen back to it. Yeah, exactly.

But that's, it was a... Thank you. It was a bar. I love you. But it's so that's what happened. I mean, that is what my career is now because now it's just bizarre. So like I'm adapting

an Argentinian film and I'm adapting a book. And I'm writing four things, which are mine. Yeah. So whenever somebody, like, asks me to do something, I'm like, I got to put my thing away. But you don't have to, like, I had dinner with a friend a couple years ago, and she was like, okay, I'm going to finish doing this one big project,

and then I'm going to write a book. And I'm like, but you need to be doing it now. You could do it now. Yeah. You have a phone. You talk into your phone. You do your thing. You write your notes.

You never forget to write anything down. Even if I'm in a situation where I'm recording something or I'm editing something or whatever, I write it down for myself. I pull it for myself. Because, you know, when you're at an event and somebody takes a picture of you and somebody that you really love or like and you're like, will you send me that? Yeah. Do you ever get that fucking picture? No, never, ever. You got to do it in a way that's like the way a doomsday prepper would do it.

You just, you gather your. Yeah. You have that ownership over it. Call up the instigators. This is Thundercloud, Newman Time. I was just listening to this Eddie Murphy documentary, and he was talking about like anytime he has an idea, he'll either just leave a voice memo or leave this thing.

And so, like, and then Arsenio was talking about, you go to Eddie's house, you'll see sheets of paper, you'll see things just like written everywhere. Yeah. Like he never stops creating. Yeah. And that's where you're just like listening to your instinct. Because that's what happens to me, you guys.

I think I have an idea. I was like, I couldn't turn that in anything. And you just let it go. Yeah. But you never know. So you just write the shit down. Oh, yeah. Just start collecting things.

Yeah. Yeah. But you, it can become a horde. Uh-huh. You don't want to get a digital hoard as well as physical hord. Yeah. So you want to, you want to curate it at a certain point. So after you collect everything, then you've got to put it in a document.

This goes to, you know, the Pearson movie. And this goes to like that. It's a Pearson movie. We can make a movie. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I mean, all of that is gold. So when you were asking me about myself and where I feel the more, comfortable or the trust.

I have learned that when I have an instinct about something, when I feel something, and I'm like, oh my God, this is giving me goosey's. Or this is a winner. I know it's going to work. Yeah. I trust. I got you.

But getting other people like. I'm on board. Yeah. I hear you. I feel like that is something that is developing within me. I feel like I have a very strong trust of myself as a thespian, but I'm trying to sort of extend that to being a storyteller and all the different aspects of storytelling. Even when my compatriots over here, they'll ask me to

sing from time to time. And I have this reflex that goes in my head, I am not a singer, right? Because I have been paid to sing or whatnot. But I actually know I have a decent voice. And I'm trying to learn. And I'm trying to learn how to have a greater level of free. And he's, this dude can blow too. Oh, no. Both of them are kind of ridiculous. We sat in an audience and watched him duet with Christian Chenowell.

But not, this is a larger point. Don't, don't embarrass it. Wait, I'm feeling Christmas album here for the three of you guys. Yes. I would do it. Yes. Come on. There's still time.

So here, this is what I'm working on. We have the slave bells. Is growing into that level of coming. in all the aspects of storytelling, storymaking, because it's a business, you know what I'm saying? Even pitching things and getting the people together, who's the right director for a project, who's the right writer to help you realize that vision?

Like, my confidence is beginning to grow and expand. And you just seem like any time I'm in a space with you, and I know you don't probably feel this way, but like the world kind of gravitates around you. Yeah. Like in a beautiful way. Like, it's not like you take the air out of a room. That's not true.

It's because you see me, Sterling. You see me. And, you know, and back at you. So, like, when I was doing those scenes with you, I didn't want to be in that room with you. You were scary. He is so in control. I have never...

I mean, I would have to go back and really try... Like, maybe Susan Terrell, who was this incredible actress who was like in Fat City like amazing classic and anyway there's certain times that you're in a room with somebody

and you're like oh this is like Daniel Day Lewis and my left foot level like that's the thing that he was doing that day and the thing and I was like I'm not qualified to be to be Dr. Lee

in this scene with Randall you know what I mean? No, no, that's absolutely untrue. That's completely in total. Oh, thank you. Yes, I mean, Sterling is... Your feelings are validate your feelings. I hear you, but...

But Sterling is brilliant, as are you. And it's like, you guys are so equally matched in these scenes together. That's why it works. Oh. Because he is so, he is so grounded, he's so assured and, A, knowing what therapy is going to be. And, like, what's in store for him and how he can handle it and how he can sort of bulldoze through somebody. And you just are there as this like mirror, as a wall.

Like, you don't let him pass go. You were so strong a partner that they didn't even have to show your face for the first. It's very true. And it was so helpful. And it was like this impending, like, you're hovering in the frame as they're shooting him. And you're like, who is this? Yeah, I know that voice. Person that they have set Randallman.

That they've set Randall against. How did he approach you to? come on to the show. Well, I mean, Fogelman was like, I don't know, I don't even know. How did he get my number? Wait a minute. How did it do that? I was in production at the time

and I was just like, okay. But yeah, he, Fogelman trusts. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the thing that I'm talking about. Yes, agree. You trust, you trust, you trust. You guys have a natural talent

that cannot be like you can't you can't fake it you just can't fake it you you I remember when I watched a couple of the episodes they sent me episodes because I was like I've never seen the show like I'm raising my kids

I'm doing my show you're busy please um you've seen them all now right we have some follow up questions I'm on my third rewatch. Oh, wow. You should join us as a permanent guest show. I'm sure. So I watched the first episode.

Okay. And I get the brick in my throat. And I'm like, oh, oh, God. Yeah. I don't want to see another episode. I just was like, oh, yeah. What is happening to my throat? How about that episode at television?

I mean, it is flawless. It's good one. That first episode. Yeah. Oh, my God. It killed me. And then I realized, oh, this is so interesting because we occupied a similar space in which, you know, I liked to do that to people. I wanted to take people on that ride.

Yeah. Absolutely. And not be afraid of like the throat punch and then just being gross, like the uncomfortable discomfort discomfort. Yeah. And all of that stuff. And you guys did it in a way like it was just, it was a. genius show. As was better things.

Yes, exactly. You're welcome. Thank you. I'm remembering like you're talking about, because we're dealing with inner generational dynamics or whatnot, like you have your daughters, but in that relationship with your mom,

Lord have more. Who's she? Celia Emery. Celia's a killer. She needs to be a dame and shit. She is amazing. Somebody needs to knight that bitch. And this is real, like your mom's British.

Yes. I am as well. Were you born? No, but... Okay. But both of your parents are? Got my papers. Dual citizen. Are you trying to come up with the next six strategy?

Is that what you're talking about? I did. You're like, yeah. I'm out anytime I need to be. Yeah. Great. Good for you. It's a very different.

Yeah, that's Celia's amazing. I tried to get in like just the most gentle amount of elder abuse in there that I could. It needs to be represented more on television. Yeah. Because that's a thing like there's. There's so much love that's there, even though there's a high level of dysfunction that exists. Like, you're able to capture both of those things at the same time, and it doesn't mean that one excludes the other. That's right.

They just sort of coexist with one another. I think that's what we're trying to find in this show as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome, man. I appreciate it.

This woman is... So, okay, we're not going to ask you too much about the show itself, right? Okay. But in terms of just, like, if there's anything that you recall in terms of, like, besides being afraid or whatnot, like, what I... We just finished watching 417. And, like, Randall's telling you this version of what he feels like. Right. His life would be like if his dad survived.

And it's like all roses and everything. You're like, wait a minute, bro. You think you would have saved, like, cancer from William if you had a chance to get in there. You think you would have caught, like, dementia or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In time to reverse that. Like, you're like, what's going on here? And then you ask him to, like, share, like, the worst version of what you think would happen.

But in ultimately, at the end of each of those versions, he winds up reconciling with his mom, even though he's deeply pissed off. And there's this moment when you're like, look, why do you, why do you think you're here? And he's like, well, you were highly recommended. And you're like, no, no, no, bro. You know how many brothers I get coming into this room looking for yours truly? Like, I'm a white woman, right? So I'm the same gender. I'm the same ethnicity. And I'm probably around the same age as your mom was when your dad passed away. Like, don't you see? Hello. Yeah. And I think that's what Chris is talking about. Like, if Randall's coming at you strong, you're like, no, bro, pay you.

attention. Like, look and see what's happening in front of your face. Like, and you may not remember anything other than being scared. No, I remember all of that. Yeah. Yeah, I thought, I thought that was cool because you were mad about your mom not telling you the truth. Right. Yeah. What was, which was that you were adopted or that I had a relationship with his birth father and I kept that relationship a secret. She kept that a secret. And I think because he wound up passing away so soon after we did meet each other, Like, there's time that I was taken away from me. Like, I could have been able to, like, spend more time. But the way that he frames it when he first comes into therapy is like, you know, I have anxiety, I have control issues.

I know these things. Like, I don't exactly know what it is that you can share with me because you don't know how to turn off your coffee pot. You don't know how to refill your cup holders. Oh, that's right. You got a dumb-ass picture with, like, balloons on it. You shot all this in one day, right? We shot all of four-six. in one day.

Yeah. But then she came back to do 417. Okay. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, I wasn't sure. The thing, after watching both of these episodes back to back, it is, it is, one, the only way that anyone was going to get to you. Yeah.

Like, there was no family member who was going to dissect you. Right. There was no, the only way for the audience to get in your head was going to be through this type of an outsider coming in. Yeah. And it would then have had to have been a therapist, right? Right. And the setup of it, now that we've seen both episodes, is such an incredible PSA for therapy? I was just going to say it's, you know, that's one thing that I would do with better things.

And I would call it putting kale in the chocolate shake. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sure. You know, because I'm like, we don't need to be so heavy-handed about everything, do we? Right. But I would also not want to lose the edge. Right. So Randall being so, I mean, he is like, he has got a rod straight up his spine. Yeah, he does.

He does. And he's like, and I'm like, okay, cool. But it was so fascinating because this is so relevant now to my life. Yeah. And I'm not sure if it's for, I think it is for everybody. that you're like, you have so much anger, you're holding on to stuff

from your childhood, from middle school, from, you know, old stories. You know, all your old relationships, whatever. It's like, how do you let it go? You're so sensitive

that you can't even say to somebody because I did say to somebody recently about something that seemed so, something that I would never hold on to can you let that go can you get over it what are you talking about this is when people are so wound up in their

things and for Randall for your character to be able to say oh I don't need to be like this and have your arms crossed for the rest of your life with this woman who you had this beautiful

beautiful parenting relationship with. So it's just, it's, it's, it's really fascinating. It's really nuanced. And if you want to keep like banging that bell and say, look what she did. Yeah. Okay. She did that. Yeah, shine the light on it.

We, generationally, and for like the last 10 years, we've had the luxury of self-reflection, right? The things like meditation and yoga. and therapy are coming in-vode are acceptable to discuss them, or at least maybe in our circle here in California, whatever the thing is. And there's a certain feeling now. It's like, okay, we've all identified our feelings. We've all identified these stories. You've been diagnosed. You're identified. You've been medicated, whatever you need,

whatever the thing is. So that doesn't mean that we get to just sit in it. What are the actionable steps that we take now? So what now? Yeah. All right. So you've identified your story. So what? That's it?

That's the definition. That's the work? No. Exactly. It's not. Some people... Now you have to... You know, some people can't...

You know, you don't have to... It's like this old school mentality and I'm older than everybody in this room. And we came from a time... A little bit. Black don't know. Tiny. We came from a time where we just... We're like, we need an apology.

We need to forgive to move on. It's not true. Yeah. Life's too short. Yeah. Look at Colorado or whatever latest body of water is drying up. Yeah. I don't have time for a written, embossed apology.

I'll take anything. Yeah. I will tell you something that is so powerful because we're talking about therapy and we're talking about being in a situation like if you can get in a war room with your friends or people that you respect you don't even have to like everybody

but you can spend time with somebody that you don't particularly like and find a way through which will enhance your life it's called Thanksgiving absolutely It happens every year. Once a year you get a chance to practice.

But there is, I mean, there is a heightened siloing that has taken effect. I think in part because of social media, your individual algorithm, you just have people reflecting back to you what you already think about something. So time spent with people who think differently than you is becoming minimized. Yeah. Oh my God. I didn't even think of it in relation to that. what I was talking about. I was talking about personal stuff.

Yeah. But you're exactly right. That's what is wrong with everything right now. Oh, yeah. There's no door open to another opinion. Dorothy Parker is like shivering in her grave right now. Yeah. Yeah.

It's different. It's all one big algorithm. Did you think about the representation as a black man being in therapy and sort of maybe the extra stigma that maybe sort of like went along with that? Do you know what I mean? That like there was maybe a little bit of that, like, woven in that was like, I mean, our show was always so good, I feel like at representing so many different things that like, again, and it's like specificity still were so general. But like, did you ever hear from anybody that like maybe, I don't know, I just thought of this? Like people coming up saying like, thanks for like opening the door to like therapy. I mean, I guess just men in general too.

Massive. Yeah, massive. And I'll say from like even from a black male perspective, like, and I think there is something, and it's interesting, there's something going on in the zeitgeist right now talking about black exceptionalism, black excellence, right? And it's a double-edged sword that, yes, you strive to be the best version of yourself to represent your community in a way that people find admirable, but there's also a level of exhaustion that can accompany that as well, meaning that if you are just, you know, okay at something, is that enough? there's this constant sort of reminder, even in waves, it's like you have to be twice as good to get just as far, et cetera.

So there is this thing that like if things aren't working out for you in your life, it is your responsibility to figure it out, right? Because it's not just about you. It's also like who's coming up behind you. Like if you fail,

that means it's going to be harder for whoever else comes up behind you. I think women probably have a very similar sort of feeling as well, right? And so, but that, all this shit It's like it's Erica Badu. It's a bag lady, you going to hurt your back. Dragging all them bags like that.

I mean, you're talking about somebody who's just carrying like a lot of stuff and doesn't, and normalizing it. As if like this is what is expected of you. This is what expected, you know, because there's so much generational trauma. Like I need to be happy that I'm not enslaved. I need to be happy that I have freedom, that I don't have to work with a three-fifths complex.

Like, shouldn't you be happy? Shouldn't you be okay? Shouldn't you be okay? You know what I'm saying? And like, there is space for being more than okay. And allowing yourself to admit that like, oh man, some of this shit is hard sometimes. Yeah. Right?

That is not weak. That's real. But I think for such a long time, you know what I'm saying? It's just like, there's so, the responsibility that I feel sometimes and I'm proud to occupy the space, space and simultaneously fatigued from time to time. Is that I do not have the benefit of just representing myself. Yeah. I feel that.

Like, I feel that, you know what I'm saying? As I walk through space, but I also go to therapy. Yeah. That's incredible. So, yeah. But I have gotten a lot of feedback, Mandy, from brothers who are like, bro. Yeah. Appreciate that.

Yeah. You know, that this is, that there's nothing wrong with asking for this help. It is not a weakness, for sure. It's not at least. Not at least. You tell them to thank Pamela Adler. Wow. She killed that, right?

This is, this is, it's amazing what you just said. Yeah, I mean, it's absolutely incredible. And I had a similar conversation with Lena Waite about that. Did you? Mm-hmm. Yeah. On her podcast or just didn't, because she did my show. Yeah, she did do your show.

She did our show, too. She did a podcast. Yes. Was she in the show? She was in the show. She had a small part, season three. Three? Yeah.

Two or three where she was over these dogs. She was working at a shelter. Yeah. Pet shelter. You know, she worked with Ron, Seifus Jones. What do they do? They were in the show. Yes.

The episode, I was directing the show. Yeah. And Ron was an actor in the show. and I gave him an adjustment and he goes, who the fuck? You're gonna give me, you're telling me how to do my character?

It was fucking great. It was absolutely incredible. And then Lena calls him out. But before we went and did, like we started our day, we had a big talk. Yeah. And, you know, she was the showrunner in my show.

Okay. She was the writer and the showrunner. And we talked to, about like would she hire a white woman to direct her show? We had a whole, we talked for an hour. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't have that much time to shoot in a day. Yeah. Yeah. It was important to have that conversation. And I've known Lena for years and I mean, I could cry right now. I love her so much. So, but it's, it's very profound what you said and, you know, things that she shared with me. And, you know, it was, I actually,

wrote, the dialogue that Lena had that day was something that Tracy Olman said to me. Okay. When I did her show, when I was a new mom, for the first time. So everything, everything gets recycled and upcycled in my life. Remind me, what did she say? What was the thing that Tracy Olman said to me? Because I was nervous and, like, I had a baby.

And I was playing this, like, you know, we were at this feminist rally. and the Tracy Olman show, like she did all these characters. Oh, yeah. She wrote the whole thing. Did she really? Oh, yeah. No writer's room?

She directed the whole fucking thing. She would be like, On Kai and like all these genius characters. And I'm watching this woman run everything. We were shooting at a park in Pasadena, and I was like, I had Bjork knots on my hair on my head, and I was wearing this, like, Calvin Klein underwear as a bikini top.

You look good. It was crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to do the thing. Yeah, yeah. I know you still do the thing, yeah. You still do it. But I remember her coming into the makeup trailer and looking at me and she said,

she saw my Bjork knots and she was like, oh, you're having a laugh. I love this. I love this. Like she loved that I was bringing something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then we went out to the park to shoot and it was like this rally. So she wanted a catwalk. and she was talking to the lead man, you know, how long it would take.

And then they said, well, if we did like a half moon, it would take half the time. And she would say, okay, okay, we're going to do that. And she said to me that she had kids. And at the end of the day, if she wasn't home to put her kids in bed at night, and she was away all the time, what is the point? and so that imprinted. It's what he said to us 30 minutes ago. Yeah.

Wow. I picked up that energy before I even came into this room. I know, babe. I know those little baby kings, they are going to remember. They will remember. Just you being there. Yeah.

You guys. That's it. That's good. That's right. Good night. Thank you so much. Brand beloved. VAR.

Ladies and gentlemen, that was Pamela Adlon. Thank you for gracing us with your presence. Thank you so much. You fucking rock. I'm honest. Wow. Love you. Oh, we love ending on a good...

Wow, that was really crazy. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da-da-da-da-dum. That was... us