That Was Us - Jack Damon Arrives | "The Waiting Room" (315)

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

On this week’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 3, Episode 15: The Waiting Room. The Pearsons camp out in a hospital waiting room, anxiously hoping for news about Kate and the baby. As time ticks on, tensions rise and conflicts resurface: Randall and Beth haven’t resolved their fight, Kevin struggles with his sobriety, Rebecca reflects on her own painful memories, and Miguel tries to keep the peace. Mandy, Chris, and Sterling laugh about Miguel’s Ranch vs. Chocolate game and discuss their hot takes, what they’re each like in a crisis, AND they hear from an expert in a very informative fan segment! Check out this resource from our fan segment guest, professor and researcher Carma L. Bylund, PhD.: https://healthycommunicationpractice.org/ That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - BAU, Artist at War opens only in theaters, for a limited run beginning September 26th. Go to https://www.baumovie.com/ to watch the trailer, read about Josef’s real-life journey, and find showtimes near you. You can also sign your organization up for group screenings. - Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at https://www.airbnb.com/host. - Message: To get 6 bottles of wine for $39.99, head to https://www.nakedwines.com/TWU and use code TWU for both the code AND PASSWORD. - Brought to you by Bombas, One Clothing Item Purchased = One Clothing Item DonatedHead over to https://bombas.com/ and use code TWU for 20% off your first purchase.Logo - Buy four cartons and get the fifth free, at https://davidprotein.com/thatwasus. You can also find David on Amazon and at local retailers—just use the store locator on their website. Humans aren’t perfect, but David is. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:01:50 Discussion 01:11:07 Fan Segment 01:23:46 Outro Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz, Rob Holysz & Jeph Porter Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards #thisisus #thatwasus Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of that was us, we're diving into season three, episode 15, the waiting room. When Kate is rushed to the hospital after her water breaks early in her pregnancy, the whole family gathers to support her. Tensions rise between the Pearson's after hours spent in the waiting room, and finally, a new member is welcomed. and to the family. I love movies about real-life heroes. People who stand up against unimaginable evil to protect others. And Bow, artist at war, gave me chills from the very first scene. Because this isn't just another Holocaust story.

It's a true story about survival, love, and how art can literally save lives. The protagonist, Joseph Bow, said, They can starve us, beat us, cages. But they could never kill our spirit. And he lived that. And the Plochhoff concentration camp, he used his art and skills as a forger to help prisoners escape. And he found Rebecca, the love of his life. Their secret wedding inside the camp was so defiant, so courageous.

It was later immortalized in Schindler's List. So if you connected with Jojo Rabbit or Schindler's List, you will be drawn into this, part thriller, part love story, and totally unforgettable. Bow, Artist at War, opens only in theaters for a limited run beginning September 26th. Go to bowmovie.com, B-A-U-Movie.com to watch the trailer, read about Joseph's real-life journey, and find showtimes near you. Bao, Artist at War, hit me so hard, and it's one of those rare films that stays with you. Gang, how are we doing? We are fantastic. How are you? I'm doing wonderfully, and this is excited to do it.

just delve into this episode because it's one of those things where every once in a while, Dan and our writers decide to sort of break up the format of having ABCD storylines that converge. And it still does that, but we're all basically in one room together. Together. For the totality of the episode. We have, Kotobi is in the operating room because 28 weeks, baby is coming. And so things are a little bit harried. So those two are away.

but their support group, their family, is there for them. So in that group, we got Randall, we got Kevin, we got Beth, we got Zoe, we got Rebecca, we got Miguel. And then we have somebody else come and join a little bit later, right? Yes. Okay. And I will say this episode is a favorite of mine, personally. I'd say it's in the top five of favorite episodes of the entire series. Becca Brunstetter, who was one of our writers who left after this season.

wrote this episode She's a playwright And this episode in particular Feels very much like a play Yeah Feels like a one-act play Yeah, that's right And it's

I remember shooting it We were just discussing this Do you remember shooting at Sterling? I do Do you remember Chris? Well, he was gone. I know, you were just here For a small fraction of it

But I do remember Just the day I got there I was like These people have been in this room For a long time Like, even the actors, like, I watched that bird loop for one day, and I'm like, that's got to stop. I have a question. Go.

Did we do a table read of this episode? No. We didn't do any table reads after 105. Why do I have this recollection of us reading this episode? Like, this was, maybe I'm totally wrong. Did you have a table read of this episode? I read everyone's lines. It's maybe just because of the play-ass part.

or something that's like ingrained in my memory. But I do remember Kevin Hooks, who directed this episode, who went on to direct several episodes of our show. This was his first, bringing us to the set for us to be able to kind of look at the logistics and how they wanted to shoot it and basically like what this waiting room set was going to look like. So I do remember having a little bit of time as a cast, like some of us went, maybe a little piece mailed and sort of looked at what the...

like what it all was going to sort of look like and how we wanted to shoot it. Which is odd because, you know, our show we would shoot 18 episodes a season and it's like once we started going and the train had left the station it was like, we just went from one episode to another to another to another to another.

There was no real like downtime. So this was a bit odd in that sense that like we even had any sort of I guess like the details of what a particular episode was going to be or what's going to look like or what little details we needed to know about.

Usually we just showed up on the day and, like, did the scene. But I think because there were four or five days of us shooting in this one location on this set that they made, like, this exception or made it a bigger deal or something. There was also the presence of Dan Fogelman more than normal.

Yeah, you're right. He was there a lot. And I was like, what are you doing here? It's a special episode. It's a special episode. It is. Yeah, he wanted to make sure it was executed. He doesn't give a lot of feedback to directors,

but every once in a while he would kick out a note, you know what I'm saying, and everybody listens, and you're like, okay, cool. There were some technical challenges on this episode, too, because the entire thing is essentially in a glass room. Yeah, a glass box. And when you're shooting, glass offers a lot of reflections. Yes, sir.

And so it was fun knowing that to kind of watch Yasu not only navigate the reflection, but also try to figure out all the different ways, he could shoot in the same room, whether it's jumping into like another room through blinds or whatever, whatever the thing was. So it didn't feel like a proscenium. Like you were experiencing different angles,

different depths, et cetera, et cetera. How long were you guys in that room? Four days, five days? I think we shot for like four days or something. And they would try to let the takes go a little bit longer or whatnot, so you just sort of felt like you're just sitting in it. And in those situations, you know, that when people are having their little asides,

essentially the scenes within the episode everybody else is background for like there's no like you can't actually hiding you can't do you're like you know how sometimes you're like am I going to be in this next part of the scene and you just kind of walk around the corner they did have doubles for John and I

they did have doubles so if like we were so old because if we were in the background you couldn't really see us or you just caught like the side of like someone's head or something at the end of the day because Because you refused. Because I refused to do background. Nope, I won't do background.

Tell them what happens to the makeup, like, at a certain point. Makeup just starts to sort of, like, decay on your face. You have to remember that we were showing up four hours before most people, right, to get through this hair and makeup. So let's say call time is 8 o'clock. That means we're there at 4. Was it 4 hours before? It was 3.5. So they give you a little bit of padding to get your.

dressed, have breakfast, whatever. So, so you're, you're there at the crack of Dawn. You want to get a breakfast burrito in there before. Yeah, you need a breakfast. People start gluing things to your face. Well, they're not making breakfast burritos at four, but once breakfast has arrived at seven for like the crew. Yeah, and you're ready. So, so yeah, so you're there, you know, three and a half, four hours before crew call going through like the works and having an insure. Having an insure. Sure, sipping my chocolate and sure. And the same with John. And so as the date goes on, you're, it, it just sort of starts to degrade a little bit. And, um, yeah.

And so by. Along with the performances. Exactly. Everybody just. By about hour 10. 11.12. You stand and start talking and like, yeah. If you.

Only no words. We only would leave if we were just in the background of a shot. You couldn't see this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, by like hour 10, 11, 12, when that makeup is starting to let your cheek is starting to come off. They're like, we got to let these. kids go because then it's another hour and a half to take it off. I even noticed there's

one moment in this episode where you eat something and you don't take a bite of it. You pull a little piece off with your finger and like slide it into your mouth. And I'm like, that's a choice on how to eat it on how to eat a donut. A 70-something year old woman's not going to be like chomping into a donut. But also very careful not to open the mouth too much. Protect the makeup. Yeah. Did you feel, does it pull if you stretch your face too much? Yeah, I'm not supposed to stretch my face too much. You don't want to like, so you've got like a layer of kind of glue all over your face sort of, right? That like kind of they get these deep set wrinkles going.

Then the actual prosthetic pieces are sort of like stickers, right? So the stickers go like, you know, around here. There's a ton that go around your eye. There's one on your forehead. It kind of depends at what juncture we find, Rebecca. But those stickers, that's what, like, you can't move too much because you don't want them to, like, pop or tear or something. Like, Jack, with a facial hair, anybody has to do with facial hair.

Like, if you smile too big, like, it just kind of like peels off. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got, like, the mesh underneath. So as soon as that donut came into play, Zoe from makeup probably got up from her chair. She was like, but, blah, blah, blah. She did that. That's exactly what she does.

But also, that feels Rebecca like, just a tiny, just a little snack. Oh, no, it totally worked. A nibble. It worked. Yeah. But you know, you knew the, you knew the background. She was sliding that food in. We should, we should go through this just in sequential order. There's no other way to do it. There's no other way to do it. Because everybody's in there together. Yeah, because this could also be the end of the episode. What could? Right now?

They're in the waiting. And then they, and then they were in the waiting room. It is. Now to the fan second. Thick with tension. A lot of tension. Everybody's waiting. Everybody's testing. They're exhausted. Yeah.

We come to find out it's been, what, 26 hours? 26 hours. We have the dynamic with Randall and Beth. After the pin in it dynamic. The pin in it is still sort of simmering right now. The pin is in it. And she's since joined him, flown across the country because Kate is in labor. Maybe not.

They're trying to keep the baby in. Yeah. And she's sort of missing things from work. Yeah. You know, he's like, thankful that she's there. And she's like, uh-huh, cool. Who's texting you at 4 a.m. Yeah.

It's 7 a.m. on the East Coast. That's right. He's trying to charge his phone. She's like, what do you need your phone for? He's like, it's work, you know. And it's like such small things. Little micro-o-enru-rushes. They are a couple stuff.

They are so palatable. You know what I mean? It's like, I was very uncomfortable there. Wait, and I love that Kevin was like, my battery's at 70%. And Randall's like, and he's like, so let it get the other 30%. Yeah. I was like, oh, Kevin's a full battery-charged guy. And then when he takes an Advil, and everyone, like, stops what they're doing and watches him.

Yeah. Well, because we find out later that everybody has said that Toby's told you that, like, we got to the hospital through an ambulance because your brother was drinking. Nobody's saying it out loud, but that's like Kevin's living with it, right? Zoe's sort of living with, like, how long has this been going on? Yeah. You know, when did it happen? But we'll go sequentially.

We'll go sequentially because I'm trying to think. I'm going to go through my notes and you tell me what resonates and what doesn't. Beth or somebody just kind of keeps clocking Rebecca also. She's just sort of been in one spot seated the whole time. Every time she sort of says something, it sort of comes out different. Like she notices the chairs at one point in time and how they look like bacteria. She says something before. The electrical outlets.

The electrical outlets look like little smart, like surprised faces. Yeah. Yeah, frozen mid-scream, which now you'll never unsee that. Never. As soon as they showed the outlet, I was like, yeah. Don't they, don't they, right? Oh, don't they? So the doctor comes in to give an update.

So we hear, and I think this is sort of good, 28 weeks is good. Yeah. In terms of like that you made it that far that you have like a viable, that you can live outside of the body, right? She could get an infection, right? What's that mean? Does she have an infection? He's like, listen, I'm just letting you know.

know this could happen. You know, Miguel starts looking up medical advice and what things could happen. He's like, look, can we just go back to the time when the doctors were the doctors and not everybody else? Yeah. Get off your phone. Yeah. He says, listen, get off your phone, be cool. The fact that I'm out here means that nothing crazy is going on back there. So just, you know, relax, right? And Kevin decides to, like, saddle up to the doctor and is like, listen, listen, I know you're great and all. But like, I have the means to have my sister really taken care of. So if, like, there's a moment where you could be humble enough to step aside and say, like, yeah, there's probably someone out there that could do a better job. Like, Kevin wants

him to do that. Yeah. And then Randall steps into it. He's like, hey, man, sorry, my brother's just concerned. He's not himself right now. So thank you for everything that you're doing, et cetera, et cetera. And I got to tell you, I want to smack both of them. Yeah. It's mortifying across the board. Both of them were terrible. Yes. Yes. In fact. I was like, bro, who are you, big man? Sort of stuff in there. I was like, yeah. Yeah, both of them were horrible, in my humble opinion.

I don't know if you guys have a take on it, but I was like, watching. And like, I saw that he was trying to do, right? I was like, hey, man, two grown people are talking. You can let them talk. You don't have to insert yourself into the conversation. Yeah. That is Sterling talking to Randall watching him on the TV. I mean, this whole episode is.

is an exercise in people inserting themselves where they shouldn't be in all different directions. I think that's also part of the episode is that like, when you have a confined space and you have nowhere else to go, how do you deal with each other, right? It's very Czechovian in that way. You know what I'm saying?

Somebody bring the Samovar. Like, that's from Chekhov. Anyway, so then. We start the Chocolate or Ranch game. Which I'd like to start right now. Yeah. We don't have to play it the way they play. I mean, I would like to,

to actually talk about what it does go on. What chocolate does go well with, or what ranch goes well with? Your favorite, your favorites. Ranch goes well with a lot of starches, right? Fries, obviously. You know what I'm saying? A lot of meats.

Pizza's my number one. Oh, yeah, pizza's not bad. That's not bad at all. I'll never forget. I'll never forget. The year was 1993. We were just post-soluble. soccer practice and the whole team went to Mountain Mike's pizza and Mountain Mike I don't know if I was just small or if the pizzas were actually that big huge huge pizzas slices the size of your head and they offered what's this what's this you say the pizza comes with two different sauces what were the two melted butter for my crust wow and

ranch dressing is a health food restaurant ranch dressing for what for the pizza you say pray tell and that day changed my life ranch dressing is number one condiment is it number one condiment numero uno i'll tell you what let me ask you if you're most versatile hot wings are you ranch or blue cheese ranch he's a ranch guy I'm blue cheese yeah blue cheese I do like the blue Don't get me wrong. Listen, blue cheese, if you're watching. I love blue cheese. You could still be a sponsor.

You could still, if blue cheese would like to sponsor the podcast. Big blue cheese, big dairy. If big dairy is watching. Right. Yeah. But, yeah, pizza's my number one for ranch. Preeze is number one. Man, do you have anything that you love to douse?

A condiment? No, I mean, I guess I would go with ranch. I'm not a huge condiment. Like, I'm not a hot sauce girl. I'm not a... Hold on. Wait, hold on. You don't like a sauce?

What kind of sauce? What's your favorite sauce? Barbecue sauce. Barbecue sauce? I'm asking. I'm asking. If you have a fritz. Let's say someone wants to give you a gift of a large bottle of sauce for a birthday or something.

And you're eating a French fry. Olive oil. Olive oil. A beautiful bottle of olive oil sounds better. That's not a condiment. I don't have a favorite condiment. It might be the classiest of condiments, actually. What do you put on your french fries?

Um, I catch up mayonnaise? No, ugh, never. How dare, first of all. Wait a minute, it's an aoli. Hot take. Hot take. But Aoli, like, has a little bit of, like, something extra in there.

Yeah, it's got some, like, garlic, it's got, just, like, straight marrow, like some helmonds or something, absolutely not. How about a, how about a, like a Japanese cupy? You know what? I'm a, I'm a, maybe a Dijon mustard girl. I love a mustard. A grainy mustard, a Dijon mustard. You like a lot of it. I like a mustard.

I like a mustard. Okay. So that's the thing that's occupying the tiny shelves in your fridge the most. Four or five different kinds of mustard probably. No, no. We're like a, I would say like, it's not really a condiment, but like we're a nut butter family. That's not a condiment. What is going on?

I know. It's funny. But cashew, sun butter. You like a spread. We like a spread. You like a sauce. You like a spread. I like a spread.

Like an apple butter? Sure. Okay. can't do nut butters, but you can do a sunflower. Yeah, sun butter, yeah, yeah. Sun butter. Bullshit. Is it good?

I was not to say. It's bullshit. But, you know, beggars can't be choosers. Gus loves a P.B. And so if he wants one at school, he's going to have a sun butter in J. So I got a S.B.S.B.N.J. Yeah, we do, we're almost an exclusive almond butter house. I know we're getting on a tangent.

Yeah. I'd go over almond butter over peanut, right? I think so. Yeah. Have you guys had the Hawaiian peanut butter? What is it? Like macadamia nut? Yeah, I was about to say.

They do have a macadamia nut butter. Oh, delicious. Maybe that's what you're getting for Christmas. There's this specific peanut butter from Hawaii that is coconut peanut butter. What? And it is two ingredients, peanuts and coconut. And it is, y'all, if you're a spread person, it's the mountaintop of spreads. Wow.

Really? Yeah, I'll get to, guess what y'all are getting for Christmas. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Okay, so not a song. See, I want to start a restaurant called Big Dippers, where it's just, it's a buffet of just dips, sauces.

And you order all the things to dip in it. It's all finger foods, and it's a buffet of sauces. What do you mean? Yeah, what, like barbecue sauce? What wouldn't be there? So check it out. At NYU on 2nd Avenue, we had this like Palm Freet's place that actually went up in fire and is there no longer. You don't say.

It's there no longer. But you just get these fries, and they had all these different aoles. So good. Go down, yeah. Oh, my God. It was awesome. It was awesome. I am a big barbecue sauce, too.

If you want to invest in big dippers, I'll invest in that. I'll take partners, and we can have a spread bar. Great for dessert. For dessert. Nutters, things like that. Yep, yep, yep. Fluffer nutter. Yeah, love it.

Do you want to say anything about chocolate, or did you just want to address the ranch? We can come back to chocolate. Copy that. Okay. More that was us after this short break. It is crazy how fast summer flies by. One minute, you're making Fourth of July plans, and the next, you're squeezing in those last few weekends before school or work gets busy again. We have a lot of travel planned for this summer, but I have promised my boys a trip to the Big Apple before they go back to school in the fall.

They're obsessed with the idea of going to the Natural History Museum. They've never been. And so that is on our bucket list. Yeah, it's that time where you're either trying to soak up every last bit of summer or starting to look ahead to the next adventure. And if you've got a trip coming up even later this year, it's the perfect time to think about hosting your home on Airbnb. While you're away, someone else could be enjoying your space,

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Give that room you keep saying needs a fresh coat of paint, a fresh coat of paint. Build it right, build it Rona. Conditions apply, details in store, and more offers at rona.com. We sell buckets, too. I love this game, like this Miguel game, though. It's a very funny part of the episode. It's also, I mean, you see Miguel just trying to, how can I play a part and be of value, service in this particular moment? Yep.

Right? It's like, these people need a distraction. They need a distraction, hands down. Kev admits to being hung over. Knows Toby's told everyone. Yeah. Then Zoe and Kev sort of get into like, what's up with the loss? How long you've been lying?

When did this start? I don't know. Kev's like, I'm sorry. I'm not going to lie anymore. I apologize, da-da-da. Madison comes. Yeah, with donuts. And it was really so, like, she breaks up the energy.

You know what I'm saying? In the great way. In the best way. And it's so wonderful because as an actor, you're stepping into, like, this tension. And a lot of people in general can pick up on social cues of like, oh, something's going on here. Yeah. Not Madison. That's right.

Madison is just like, hey, something's good about to happen, my friend. We're all here to support her, and I'm concerned, and you're concerned, and I'm just here to be of good cheer. Yes. You know? And we also do come to find out that she is there with a purpose. Kate has a plan. She has a plan.

And Madison is a good enough friend that she wants to help her see it through. So much has already been taken off the table and is out of her control. She's like, what can I do? Yes. But just seeing her show up with donuts and, like you said, Like, there is this levity, this change of energy. Yeah. They've been there for over a day altogether stuck in this waiting room that, like, it is such a welcome respite.

Do you remember her response to what? Yeah. Yeah. Toothpaste. Yeah. She gets in on the game. Yeah. Miguel's like, okay, tell us what food wouldn't be made better with chocolate or ranch.

And her response is like, no duh. Toothpaste. And he's like, that's not a food. Toothpaste is not a food. But he thought about it. for a second he's like no no no that doesn't count yeah and then didn't she throw another one out she did I can't remember what the other one was she maybe or was that so much that's you that's later that's later that was uh Randall yeah yeah but I love that Miguel's responses think about it

it says ranch think about it think about and then you do and you're like gross still yeah I love ranch what was there something else somebody wanted to say about that Madison intro this is a turning point for Madison yes but also I love that she said And it's down and immediately is like, how is Vietnam? Was it humid? It looked humid on Instagram. On Instagram. I was like, oh, girl. Yeah, it really, it really put a pin in when we were filming this too, but like the importance of Instagram. Yes. Yeah. Um, stepping into all of it. Yeah. Like, that was the big takeaway from, from all your time. Tell me about the humidity. And it's like, she just has no realization that she's in the middle of like, Zoe and Kevin are

discussing something very serious. Beth and Randall are at a break. point. Rebecca hasn't moved. Miguel's trying to keep things light. It'd be like, as Mandy's shooting a movie in Atlanta. How was Atlanta? Was there a lot of traffic? I've heard there's a lot of traffic. It's so trafficking there.

By the way, I just sort of, like, as I was watching it, there's a couple of moments. There's one when you guys got married where Kev goes, please don't let me have sex with that woman. And then just her being there in the midst of this stuff is like, these people have children together. Yeah. Yeah. Who would have ever?

Never seen that coming. And actually, looking back, you're like, of course. Yeah. Of course. Like, and as she's talking to him, the look on Zoe's face, she does not take her eyes off of her. She's like, really? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. She is clocking. Like, who are you? Why are you here? True documentary. But, like, this, her showing up, just her showing up feels like a turning point for the character. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, she's not just a job. right she's not just a sidebar sure like oh she's involved yeah like she wouldn't even yeah yeah like to even to even be here as as a as a whatever as a comedic relief yeah implies something about her importance yeah in kate's life that's a good point that maybe i didn't realize that's interesting that's interesting like she's at the graduation yeah yeah yeah but then she shows up here and you're like, okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Which I think as the episode plays on, Miguel is able to solidify. For sure. Randall and Beth, Cold War, is on and popping. Yeah, she gets a call from the studio about covering a class.

Right. And then she decides she's, you know. You can take that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, can I? Yeah. And then she comes back and is like, all right, well, let's just involve the whole family in this conversation about what's happening.

in our life. Yeah. And Kevin chimes in and is supportive of Beth. Doesn't go over well. By the way, there's one

having, right before that Beth opens up and she tells everybody that she's a dance teacher and Madison goes like, I love Misty Copeland. Yeah, I wrote that down too. Yeah.

Which is so good. Yeah. It's just like, I connect. Yeah. I know a Black Ballet dance a youth. I can contribute to this conversation. I guess I'm on Instagram

too much. But that is, why that's what prompts Kevin to be like, I'm sorry, and who are you? Why are you here? And you see her just deflate. Oh. I mean, like instantaneously.

It's so mean. It's really mean. Yeah. And unnecessary. It's really mean. Yeah. In this episode and in a couple of comments, there's just like the meanest things that have happened on this show.

Totally. Then Kev, she excuses herself. Kev excuses himself. And then we asked the question, did you, I asked Zoe, did you know he was drinking? again, and she's like, no. Then Rebecca mentions the chairs looking like bacteria. Yep.

She's out of it. Yep. Randall's like, so we're not going to talk about the relapse. Then the sister walks in on the phone. She's a grandmother. It looks like for the second time, I would have it very excited. She's not reading the room. Not reading the room.

She's not even paying attention to the room. She's on the phone. She's opening up her life. So good. She's opening those pretzels and just like chatting on the phone and eating her pretzels and everybody else is like... Yeah, Beth is about to... Taking a full two and a half minutes to open the pretzel bag the way an old person is wont to do with their hard candy or... Been there a couple of times.

And I'm going to tell you so, so this is a slight tangent, but this used to be one of my favorite things to do. Before Brown lived above the poverty line. I lived under the... And even a little bit living above the poverty line. line. There's a part of me that tries to go to movies and not I'll buy concessions because I was like, I can get stuff from other places. Yeah. That's less expensive. Yeah, yeah. And do my thing. And what you want, too. And what you want. Yeah. Exactly what you want. You try to open it up like before, like during the previews or what have you, during the trailer so that you can have it

ready to go. Like a bottle of ranch. Yeah. Like a bottle of rent. Ready to go at all time. So, so in Culver City, I used to, popcorn. Popcorn. I used to take my son to this Culpe City movie theater. And right next door to it, we used to love Chipotle. Guys, I would bring in the Chipotle. To the movies? Oh, yeah. I get a backpack and then I put it in a plastic bag and we do anything.

Sure. I go into the thing and we open it up and we start eating it. And I was like, this has a strong aroma. Yes. A distinct aroma. Didn't anticipate that. Everybody just kept looking back and I was like, hey. I'm eating Chipotle.

Yeah. And they were, after a while, they stopped looking back. Yeah, because they, I knew who it was. What can they do? Yeah. And they're like, that's, that's Academy Award nominee Sterling K. Brown. Hadn't had one yet. Eating.

Eating a. Felt bad. This happened. A chicken bowl. This was yesterday. This was yesterday at Superman. That's it. Just trying to.

Yeah. I thought you were. going to be like, I go to CVS, I get my nerds clusters, all of that. I didn't know that you were bringing a meal in. Straight up meals. It's a little different. Straight meals. Yeah.

Because Andrew likes hot food. He's always, Andrew doesn't snack. He likes hot food. He likes hot food. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's interesting. Amari snacks all day.

Okay. We were at, excuse, the circles, sisters on from, okay, Randall and Beth. Argument continues. Rebecca mentioned. Jack's least favorite pie, which brings us, was that pumpkin? Yeah, pumpkin. Yeah, his least favorite. Back to our pie.

We're always coming back to pie, aren't we? Well, because pie's where it's at. He hasn't had your mom's pie. That's right. Clearly. We're coming up on the holidays. Also, I'll say this. You're going to bring me that sweet potato.

I'm going to bring you sweet potato. And I just had a birthday for my son in which he didn't eat any of the cake. And he told his mom, straight, face, like, actually, I'm a pie guy. Oh. I was like, well, next time tell us before. Yeah, four days. Four days ago. We buy the cake.

Becca calls Randall selfish? Wait, Beth calls Randall selfish? I have Miguel answers for her. Beth and Randall are worried. Miguel tries to step in, right? Right, right, right, right. And Beth forces a donut on Rebecca. That's right.

That's right. That's right. Because Beth says, you don't have to answer for her. Yeah. And it's interesting. You see a couple of times throughout this episode where Miguel tries to intervene where either myself or Beth is trying to ask mom a question

and he's like, you know, guys don't, you know, da-da-da-da. And we're like, yo, did he just like, dad voice me or whatever? Not now, Randall. Talking to my mama, man. Yeah. I don't like that.

But do you guys realize now why he was doing that? Yes. Yes. Clearly. I'm building it up. Okay, got it. Got it, got it.

Like, I'm not an idiot, Mandy. Wait, why? We'll get there. We'll get there. Oh, my goodness. You used to know, but I forgot. Stay tuned. I wrote Beckett calls Randall selfish, but I think I meant Beth.

Yeah, I think Beth. I meant Beth because I said, all I want is for you to be happy. When you're happy, I'm happy. She says that's the most selfish thing. And then I actually had a moment, and this is a good moment, like, how long do you think it took you and Rachel, you and Taylor, me and Ryan, to learn how to fight fair. And I think we had this conversation with before. Because I thought, I was like, yo, clearly there's, like, intention on my part.

Like, this is me standing up for Randall. I was trying to do the right thing. Sure. And evidently, it wasn't coming across the way that Randall had intended it. But, like, I was like, yeah, what are you talking about? Like, I want your happiness. Like, let's figure it out together. Like, I know we're going through something right now.

But ultimately, what I want is for you to be happy, right? Did it come across? I'm curious from you guys because I feel like I'm close to the character in this moment. Did it come? Tell me how else it comes across.

It felt very fair to me. Okay. It's interesting because I feel like as an audience member you obviously see both sides. It's done such a fantastic job of seeing both people and sort of like

trying to find their footing and just the awkwardness and the tension that abounds from there. But I... Yeah. Yeah, I think just Beth feels that he is innately selfish by what he's asked of her. Yeah. I also think the writers have done an incredible job of painting you both into the same corner.

Like what you're asking is the only thing to ask. Yeah. Like there's, but it's also inappropriate. Yeah. And so it's like they are at an impasse that is, like, you're saying, perfectly, understandable on both sides. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I get what she's saying.

Yeah. Because it tiptoes, it tiptoes very close to happy wife, happy life. Territory. Sure, sure, sure, sure. Which is a little, still self-centered, you know, as far as like what you want out of the thing. And it's also a matter of like, what do I want for her, not what do you want for you? Yeah. Right, right, right.

How's it going to impact you and your life? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I also have here that Madison, after Miguel's sort of, he goes to the bathroom, right? He comes back and he sees her still standing there. And she explains that she really was supposed to be there and that Kate had a plan. She had a playlist. She had, Kate was, or Madison was supposed to take the first pictures for Instagram on her phone because she has portrait mode or whatever. Another thing that puts it in a time and place.

It was a brand new feature. And that she wanted Ruth Bader Ginsburg, they had been, you know, told the story about being out after a meeting and they went by this baby store. And, and Madison sort of implored her, like, you have to will this and tell the universe, like, you know this baby is coming and it's really happening. Let's buy something for the baby. And she bought this Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a little, like, plushy thing. Also, if you know Brunstetter at all, it's like, it felt like a very brunstetter. For sure. moment. Yeah. The Bader Ginsburg moment. All of it. All of it. We got to talk to her.

Oh, we do. I love her so much. To highlight what you were saying so, it sort of also cements Madison in Miguel territory, in terms of being somebody who is a part of this family, but always kind of has to sort of find their way in from slightly outside. And he tells her how, like, that there's probably not going to be a seat for you. Right. So you listen. you observe and you stand and he says i like standing yeah because i can can see everybody yeah i can you know hover i feel that i feel that way in rachel's family do you yeah because when they get

together it's a very specific dynamic yeah you know what that's mine i'll stand over here right you know i can i can observe yeah and and and attain once in a while and then and then do some dishes and you know I guess that's the way it is for a lot of born-in, you know, married-in people. I feel similar. I was just, but although at Ryan's recent family reunion, it's also just for me, it's a lot of pictures. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's a lot of pictures. And it's like, cool.

Okay. Yeah. I can do that. Yeah. We did the small business tour of Rachel's hometown when we were there just, just her dad. Have you met? My son-in-law? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, car dealerships and restaurants. Really? Yeah, yeah. That's hysterical. That's good. That's good. Kev's back. He's got a bottle of water that he's drinking, so he looks like he's in a better place.

Zoe asks, when did it start? He said at Nicky's. And she basically says, I just need to know that you're not lying to me. Like, that's a big trigger for her and doesn't want to have any part of it. Beth and Zoe have a conversation at the vending machine. She tells, Zoe tells Beth. you guys always seem to figure it out. You and Randall always figure it out.

Like we keep hearing that. You guys will figure it out. It's all good. And she's like, yeah, right? Zoe having a tough time with the lies, but Beth knows she wants to bounce. No judgment either way. And she's like, what if I decide to stay?

And she's like, hey, you're good. Either way. Which is sort of a surprising moment because it's like you think everything we've heard about Zoe is setting her up. She's like, I'm out. Like as soon as stuff goes south, I'm out. And she's seeing stuff go south.

And she's like, you know what? what if I decide to stay? And she's like, hmm, okay. Talking about what the baby's name will be. Everybody sort of assumes that it'll be the name that we don't speak, but the name is Jack. But like they said, they want to see the baby first, and we're not having any assumptions. Yeah, Rebecca jumps in. She was like, they want to meet him first.

They want to meet him first, right? Randall and Kev start sort of reminiscing on how she used to name these dolls. Kate used to name her dolls back in the day. says she's always destined to be a mom. Right, Mom? Rebecca is consumed. Counting chairs. With the odd number of chairs in the waiting room.

He's like, how strange is that? Miguel's like, hey, don't worry about it. Because he sees people want to follow up, and Miguel's like, don't worry about it, right? Randall asks about helping with the girls, asks Miguel and Mom whether they could help out with the girls. He's actively looking for creative ways to... solve the situation that they're in right now. Miguel winds up telling them they're like, we're actually thinking about moving to the West Coast

to be here closer to help Kate with the baby. And that was... Yeah, I was like, br-b-b-b-b-hmm. Yeah, Randall. I didn't take it well. As someone who loves Randall. I was like, I've had my mama the whole time. I stayed in Pittsburgh so I can have my mama the whole time.

And now you guys are just going to... Did you think about telling them about that? Like, what's going on? Like, things are changing. Yeah. Right? Like, this is, the thing that my stasis was right here. Was my mom, you know what I'm being here.

And now of a sudden it's, right? Kev steps in and be like, look, man, I know you think you have a monopoly on a mother, but, like, you don't. And then, oh. Yeah. So somebody chime in. I love it. It starts. This is when the big fight starts.

Yes. He's losing his mind. Yeah. He's so upset. Very upset. Does family dynamics like this? that informs location maybe more than I realize. Explain.

Well, Rachel and I, we have truly searches, you know, in other cities, real estate searches that pop up little houses in Portland or Nashville or New York. Yeah. Or like, and then you're like, okay. But, you know, if you do that, especially now that you have kids. Yeah. And you move away from mom and dad or brother. Right.

That's a whole thing. That's not just you moving anymore. Real talk. Real talk. And so it like informs the decision, I think, way more than I ever realized. I don't know if I'm going to, I get the flip for you. Whichever of my children has more children, that's where I'm moving. Got it.

Hands down. I know this. Interesting. Hands down. Has more children. or first or more. Or maybe I'll have two places in both wherever they live or hopefully I can convince them to live in the same place.

I'm getting all the grandchildren time I can't. Yeah. Yeah. And Ryan is like, agreed. Oh, great. You're on the same page. We're on the same page. Okay.

That's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you've just got to mold their minds to live in the same place. If they can do that and also, like, convince them of this little girl, Willow, that he met in preschool. great. And we look very much like those grandchildren to be with. Willow over here. Dad!

I'm 14! Down the road. A long ways down the road. The black grandma takes off in the middle of this. Oh, yeah. She's like, I'm out of here. Kev is going crazy over the TV, right, and his sister in the fact that he can't do

anything about it, right? He goes to talk to Dr. Monroe and then find out that Dr. Monroe went into emergency surgery, but we don't know with who or what have you. Zoe takes a sip or water just to sort of refresh herself. And she has

a strange reaction. She takes a sip of water and is like... She does have a strange reaction. You just clock, you just clock like very subtle, very subtle. She's sort of like, what? Why is that weird? Watching it back, too subtle for my taste.

Brandling cares... If you really did take a sip of... Yeah, yeah, yeah. In Randlin Caves Beef, there is maybe, if you hadn't left me with Nikki, arguments are spiral, which was a real BS sidestep. Yeah. But then, and then. A real addict move. Rebecca says, stop it.

And Mandy Moore just shuts it down. Yeah. And it also is one of those things where all the things that kind of seemed random that she was thinking about sort of come together. Yeah. many more what did you tell the people well things are spiraling out of control and um you know Kevin tells Randall that he's the hero dad he has to be the moral center always I mean it's just like to the point where Rebecca finally does have to intervene and it's like enough because this is not why we are here right and she goes into this soliloquy and

of every detail that she remembers from the waiting room the night that their house burned down. And she went to the hospital with Jack for the burn on his hand. And it's like the number of chairs, the color of the chairs, the little side conversations, the chairs were green,

and they reminded them of key lime pie, and then they sort of talking about their favorite pies. Yep, always back to pie. And Jack talked about how he hated pumpkin pie. And I mean, it was just all these little tidbits of the evening, and you realize, like, oh, this woman is like in the midst of this PTSD, it's real PTSD to be back with her daughter

and her grandson in harm's way. And not knowing what the outcome is going to be, it is like it's so visceral, it's so tangible, being right back in that place, feeling so helpless, knowing what the outcome was that time, and being a probably, a nervous, anxious wreck about what could potentially happen. And meanwhile, like, I think there's like, to me, it was like self-preservation for Rebecca. There's so much going on in

her mind. She's so fearful. What is she going to do? But just start to let her mind wander to that night. Obviously, she can't help it. But like, oh, that's funny. There were an even number of chairs in the waiting room before that night, now they're only 17 here. It's like trying to keep your mind occupied on something else other than the deep-seated fear of what could be. And I think like it for sure is also planting some sort of subliminal seeds of what is to come in terms of her brain and her memory and all of that. But of where we're going. But I think she has to sort of take the reins again and rein this family back in

and say, really, anything that doesn't have to do with Kate or the baby is like off the table right now, period, the end. And just as she sort of makes that point known, Toby Yatterson. Here comes Toby. We'll be right back with more. That was us. You know, that's that. moment in summer when you're finally in the groove, whether it's traveling, running around with your friends, or just enjoying the slower pace, and then something small can throw you off. You see,

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were you guys in those situations before we get to Toby like i've i've only realized with my kids having had to go to the urgent care several times with a very active young man yeah um that i get so calm and focused and i don't know if it's healthy like i don't know if it's the right way to be but it is the way i am which is very like all right here's what needs to happen yeah that sounds healthy and helpful i mean it's helpful it certainly works yeah i don't know if i don't know if i don't know if it means detached from the real emotion of the situation. I don't think so. I find myself similar.

But I also find myself oftentimes trying to do that Bruce Lee-like water thing because I know ride tends to elevate. So I try to balance the energy in the room. Bruce Lee like water. Tell the people. If you can tell that there's already somebody who's sort of like leading a group or whatnot, then you can lead in a different way. I don't need to be out in front.

I can sort of just support whatever is happening. amongst the consensus, right? If on the basketball team, there's a really good point guard, then you go and play underneath the basket. If nobody can handle the ball, then you try to dribble the ball and fill that role. Like, whatever role needs to be filled in that moment. Because water takes on...

The shape or size of whatever container it's in, right? And so, with the baby was born, when Andrew was born or whatnot, it happened at home. There was only just three hours and 23 minutes or whatnot. I could tell, like, my wife was a little nervous about the whole thing. I was like, well, me being nervous is not going to help her through this process. So why don't you just try to keep it together as best you can and believe for the best, right? And that was always, I was like, I just have to keep her calm.

She's doing all the work. If I can help her in any shape, form or fashion, maintain coolness through the process, then that's the best way I can be of service in this moment. That's interesting. Yeah. How are you? I think I tend to maybe be a bit more, not hysterical, but like, Sometimes the stress of the situation gets the better of me.

I think Taylor's a little cooler about things. But also then there have been situations I feel like the opposite. Like I feel like, I mean, that's what you hope for in a partnership, right? Is that kind of balance in Yen and Yang. Yes, ma'am. You kind of be what the other isn't in that moment. And there's definitely been moments where I'm like, okay, we got that when we were evacuating our house. When the fires were happening, I was like, I got the call.

We were leaving. I was with the baby. I had to go down stairs and tell Taylor he was with the boys. And I was just sort of like, here's what's happening. You get the kids in the car. I'm going to get the cats and find the dog. And then the power goes out and it got a little crazy. But I think in that moment, it was just sort of like I otherwise would have like looking back thought like I'd probably be super flustered.

But I wasn't. It was just sort of like, okay, here's what we're going to do. And Taylor was like, thank you because it set the tone for the kids. The kids were, like, we were like, okay, we're going to have an adventure and your PJs, like, get in the car. Like, here we go. We don't know where we're going, but we're leaving the house. And it was like, cool. So I think in those moments, hopefully, when it's really needed, I can kind of follow your lead, Chris Sullivan and be like, whew.

Yeah. It's interesting how we've reacted in those situations. Yeah. Because, yeah, you never know. There's sometimes when Rachel needs me to be more, show more concern. Sure. I think last says that of me all the time. Yeah, yeah.

It's like, like, there's a, there's an odd, I don't know if it's codependency or whatever, but it's, it's, it's, I'm stressed. I need you to show me that you know I'm stressed by being more stressed. Yeah. About this. Exactly. So I don't feel bad about being stressed. Right. And it's like, well, I don't know if that's going to be helpful.

I could try. But yeah, so here comes Toby. Here comes Toby. Yeah. To give an update. Yeah, man. I remember feeling really nervous. about this chunk of words.

Yeah. Because I read the episode and I'd, again, much like Madison, shown up on the fifth day being like, a lot of work's been done here. You know, like there's a lot of been going on. But a lot of work that was waiting for your work. Do you know what I mean? I was like, we're all waiting for you. It's just why it was like, and here it is.

And I remember. I remember being a little disappointed, but also relieved that one of the shots was a constant shot where like half of my dialogue was on the back of my head. I'm like, all right, well, that takes a little bit of the pressure off. But the information gets delivered. Yeah. That the baby is here.

It's premature. Emergency C-Section. Emergency C-section. Yeah. His heart rate started dropping, all that stuff. yeah but i wanted to come out with some sense of calm because he's here which randall keeps but he's here yeah he's here right but he's really he's really small and and and and to cap it off oh man it's so good i remember having i do you guys remember me having a really hard time delivering this line

because i thought it was so funny oh i got the giggles like bad this day. I kind of do. Do you remember? Now I do kind of remember. And it took me like four or five takes. Because it's so funny. It's so funny.

Like after everything that's happened, they've given Toby, which again, Brunster. His world has just like great. His world is shattered. And they've written him the funniest joke that he makes in the series. It's not just, it's, it's Miguel's reaction. It's Miguel's reaction. Yeah. It's like, she did?

He, like, he like prairie dogs up. He gets six inches taller. She did? Because Toby goes, and she's asked to, and this is what I couldn't get out straight-faced. And you can almost, it's barely, I barely get it out in the take they used. But she's asked to, I can't do it now. I can't do it. To see Miguel first.

And it's so funny. It's so funny that I couldn't, I couldn't get it. And also, the only way I got it was I couldn't look at any of you. I remember being like, okay, I definitely can't look at John. And so I'll look at John. And so I'll look over, I'll look over. I'll look over. over, I'll deliver it like maybe over this way. I'm like, can't deliver it to Randall and definitely can't deliver it to Kevin. Yeah. I think I ended up looking like at nobody, like at the birds. Yeah. I think she's asked to see Miguel first. And Miguel gets six inches taller.

She did? She did? Puppy dog face. Yeah. No. I got to go watch that again. No, I got, I can't, I was my attempt at some humor. But that was one of the most difficult moments for me on set because it was such a swing.

I love that. When people are like, what was the hardest part of the show? I thought it had to be so hard, right? Delivering a slam to Miguel after my premature child was just born. Just born. Yeah. That's not crying. Right. Trying not to laugh.

They don't have that day at acting school. Sure. Yeah. Sure. That day is not practiced. You go visit S&L and you just try not to break. That's it. Um, you asked, can somebody contact my parents?

And Miguel, of course, got the number saved. I got the numbers saved for a sort of occasion just like this. Kev tells, Tobs, hey, will you tell her I'm here? Tobs looks back. She knows. But also I'm like, I get the twin thing, but I'm like, this, like, innate selfishness. Like, let her know that I'm here. It's like, first of all, you fucking came in the ambulance with her.

Okay, she knows you're here. Yeah. But it was just sort of like, I, you're. Your resignation of like, bro, exactly, she know, she just had an, her organs are still open to the world. Like, can you take a beat? Yeah. And I remember, I remember, like, Toby's response, because Toby has a response to him, too, when he first gets to the hospital. And I remember, you know, at this stage, I'm three years, three years into my sobriety.

And I was like, I really want to play this. carefully, like, with how Toby responds to Kevin, knowing, like, because I don't think Toby would shame him for a relapse, but now is a hell of a time for a relapse, but he didn't know that they was about to have a baby, yeah, yeah, yeah. So just like the general, like, bro, not now was a tricky thing, but he was, he certainly helped it along with. this selfishness. It was interesting. I didn't, and you guys were right, like, and how you received it.

I didn't think of it that way. I thought of it about, like, that he didn't leave and that, like, you know, the family's there, but, like, he's her person in that way, at least before he got married, before she got married. And it's interesting, too, because you had beef with him before, and he's like, look, I'm supposed to be the person now. So, yeah, she knows you're here, but I've got to go back to be with my wife. It's just the sad, you know, nature of Kevin of, like, who am I if I'm not her person?

If I'm not here for her, who am I? I mean, he's at a real low point right now anyway because of the relapse. But, yeah, just that kind of irked me hearing that. Like, just like on your way out, let her know I'm here. Last bit of important information. Yeah, exactly. Like, read the room, dude. Like, what?

That's interesting. Okay, I got you. I got you. My favorite part, too, is this culmination of the game, of the chocolate ranch game. Which is really... Can't it is the culminate? It is the perfect button. Yeah.

Can't put chocolate on ranch. No, that doesn't go well together. No. But is ranch of food? Yeah, let me continue the game. There you go. Is it? It's a condiment.

It's a condiment. I mean, it's not a... I think ranch is not a food in the same way that toothpaste is not a food. Yeah. No, but you can eat ranch. You could. You can eat toothpaste. No, you can.

You get sick. But you get sick if you eat at ranch. Listen. Yeah, that's a good point. You make a lot of sense. It's just a little flaw in the game, but it is the perfect culmination to the game. Which favorite thing to put chocolate on? And don't say your wife.

I don't think I've ever put chocolate on my wife. Because my wife is chocolate. You know what I'm saying? She doesn't eat anymore. What is my favorite thing to put chocolate on? So, Amari has granola in the morning, and we'll have, like, different assortments of granola with the yogurt, with, with, frozen wild blueberries and they have to be frozen

and have to be wild because they pop like candy and the smaller blueberries are the wild ones and then you throw a little dark chocolate in there and maybe a little bit honey crisp apple

chopped up chop chop chop boom bo as a good well no wonder he doesn't want to make his own food yeah he made me breakfast you guys don't make food with love you guys

of course we do of course we do but our children are you know can't hold a fork you know so it's like But once they realize how good we are at making food,

Yeah, I'd probably need to make it less well. Make it with a little less love. Maybe with a little less love because I was like, he's like, I can't do it. And I was like, pour yourself a bowl of cereal. And he's like, okay, so we'll keep like Joe's O's or something for when dad can't do it. And then what's frustrating or would I have to get on the rental of me, it's like cereal all over the place.

I was like clean up after yourself. Yeah. Favorite cereal. We've never talked about this, have we? I just had a cereal thing on the movie and it just made me, it put cereal back in my life. I would at a point in my life until the roof of my mouth was wrecked.

Cap and Crunch. All you had to say was roof of my mouth. Yeah, roof of my mouth. That's your fave. That was... What is that flavor? I don't know. Corn.

Cap and Crunch. It's the taste of sweet corn. It's corn bread. Yeah. Yeah. It's sweet corn. That was the one. I think that as an adult, for a moment,

I got into crackling oat bran, but let me tell you, it is cracklin oat bran. Fibers. Don't overdo it. Okay. That's not a second bowl. You can't have a second bowl. I would eat the whole thing. Oh, wow.

Sterling, if you can't eat the whole box, I know. If you did that with anything, you'd have the same reaction. Your system would evacuate itself. Yeah. Listen. Anyway. Crackling, O'Brand. I mean, as a kid, I still can't believe the things I was eating for breakfast as a kid.

Two Pop-Tarts, a carnation instant breakfast, a bowl of Reese's pieces cereal. Oh, Reese's puffs? For sure. That was good. Get out of you. I have Jesus puffs. They're good. They're good.

Wait a minute. There was judgment. Oh, no. I'm like, okay. I mean, it doesn't feel too adulty, but like adult-adjacent. It's got oats. Sure. In the title.

Sure. And honey. And bunches. End of. Also, I don't know if how long. Just a straight up life cereal? That's my favorite. Life cereal.

Life cereal. Life cereal. I've never had it. I could eat it right now. With some raspberries? Oh, yes. Oh, berries. Yeah.

What's the flavor? Is this rice? It's cinnamony sugar? Well, they have cinnamon life. I'm just a plain life, girl. Plain life? It's like a honey sweetened sort of like what, like a checks almost like. Okay, okay, yeah, I got it.

Sweet checks. Yeah. That's way healthier than me. Like right now, like we hit bare naked with the cocoa nibs and everything like that. That's what he goes into his sort of thing, parfe. So that's mostly what we have. Have you guys tried the, and I guess this is a shout-out, Magic Spoon, if you're listening. Love Magic Spoon.

All right, clip it, send it. Magic Spoon, where you at? Come at the... What's Magic Spoon? Dude. What? You haven't had Magic Spoon? It's healthy versions of our favorite childhood cereals packed with protein.

Oh, yeah. Sterling, it's a game changer. Really? Yes. Cut the clip, send it to them. We love Magic Spoon in our house. Hey, Magic Spoon. You get the first one for free.

Come at me, bro. Anyways. It's delicious. I was good. I like that. Okay. Madison got something for Kate? Yeah.

She got the RBG and she gave it to, she gives it to you. She gives it to Miguel. No, she gives it to Miguel. That's right. And Miguel, essentially, you know, this is all part of, she's completed. She's found a way to help. Yeah. Yeah.

Thanks for putting up with this. Right, which he says right after you say to the nurse. Yeah. Which was such a brilliant piece of writing to show him observing and being a part of the family, including himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for putting up with us. Totally, totally. That he is a, he is part of us.

Yep, yep, yep. Randall's happy. You're keeping me up. Randall's, you guys, you guys, happy for the grandparents moving west. And she's like, yeah, I think Rebecca says, you guys are going to be all right or Miguel. And he's like, yeah, we got this. right uh kevin zoi i don't think i can do this without you zoe any of it right and zoi then tells beth that kev's water bottle was full of vodka yeah and to your point which is why i i wondered if in the edit

there was a stronger take i'm gonna say that but it gave it away when i was a kid yeah i was at my grandmother's house and there was always these sort of like tumblers you know those 32 ounce cups that you get... Silver ones? No, no, no. Plastic cups that you get from Church's chicken or whatever, like,

fast food place or whatnot. And somebody had like a church's cup out, and it was the middle of the summer and it was full of water, like ice water or something. And I come running in, I see this cup out there. I was like, I'll drink after anybody.

I don't care. Take it to the hell. Buh, full of gin. Full of gin. Gin, vodka, one of the two. I wasn't that well-versed at the time. But I was like, this is not water. So to your point,

it could have possible. been a strong attack. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you might have given it away. I did that in my college apartment one day. I woke up one day after a party and there was a bottle of water on a coffee table.

Yeah. Oh, thank gosh, some water. And it was more vodka. And I was like, who brought this? Oh, gross. Yeah. So maybe there were other takes, but you didn't want to give away the surprise. And it's also just sort of like, God, leave, man.

Like, she's talking about the lies and everything. the lies and everything. And you're saying, like, no more lies, et cetera. People are watching you like a hawk, you know, like, I got to say, and you can see Randall at the beginning being like, where's he going? Where do we need to watch? Do we need to be more concerned about this relapse, et cetera? He comes into the bottle of water and we're all sort of like relatively relieved. She keeps under the wraps, but it's just like, dude, come on, man. Yeah. Like, come on. And that's sort of where, well, the episode ends, I want to say, like we go to the back and we finally get a chance to see Kotobi together with she finally says

like I've been nervous to ask but I feel like I want to name him Jack is that okay and you you're like yeah you sort of just like Toby is in this space and I got to say you guys this so to the to the audience we did not have a real baby for this and I feel like it's important to say because the baby's so small but these dolls cost like tens of thousands of dollars and there was a puppeteer. There's a puppeteer. Hiding underneath the table. Sort of like moving the child.

And like when I, in the next episode, Beth and I get a chance to see it. I remember seeing that baby baby. And I was just like, whoa. Yeah, take your breath away. Oh, my gosh. I have friends who had twins that were born seven months or something like that. And they had to spend two months in the NICU. I had a friend who had a baby of five months.

Yeah. Four months in the NICU, like a pound if that, you know what I'm saying? And so it's like, it was the first time for me seeing a representative of what they must have been looking at with their child. And there was like a profound sense of empathy for Toby because, like, yeah, you see Kate is like loving on this baby and doing what she can or whatnot. And also understanding to show like I had this envisioned in my head. And now what I'm seeing is completely different than what I thought it was going to be. It's so scary. So terrifying.

Yeah. Very much so. But I just was wondering if the audience would thought for a second, no, that wasn't the baby. No, no, no, no. That was a doll. Oh, whatnot. And so you see, she says, like, will you hold hands with me? And she says, dad, you know, I just need you to take care of this baby and make sure that he's okay.

And I don't know why I'm looking up because I know you're everywhere and everything. But it's just this moment of prayer of just sort of like solicitation of the powers that be to like, please, please let this baby be okay. Yeah. And I'm sort of like, amen, A'Shea, Shalom. Yeah. Hallelujah.

Like, please let this baby be okay. Because we already had one miscarriage. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? In this family, we don't believe. And he's here. Let him just be okay. Let him be okay.

That's where it finishes. What else do we have in this happens? That's it. That's it. Let's do a fan segment. We'll take a break. We'll be right back with more. That was us.

for our favorite segment, our fan segment. In this episode, we saw tensions rise not only between the Pearson's, but between the family and the doctors too. Specifically, when Miguel tried to speak up about what he read on the internet. Today, we are going to talk to someone who has spent years studying exactly

why this kind of doctor-patient interaction matters so much. Joining us on the phone is professor and researcher, Karma L. Byland, Ph.D., who specializes in doctor-patient communication and how the internet is changing that dynamic. She is going to help us break down what she calls the stoplight model and why red light doctors might be doing more harm than good. All right.

Let's get into it. Hello, Dr. Byland. Hello, Mandy, Kristen Sterling. But we can call you karma, you say. Karma, yes, we'll call you karma. Is that correct? Please call me karma. Yes.

But I respect the title. Just so you know. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. that. So tell us about the stoplight model and what red light doctors are. Yeah, I'd love to. So overall, my research has really been focused on trying to improve communication and health care settings, right? This episode is a perfect example of how stressful health care settings can be. And one of the things that I've looked at over the years is how this online information impacts

doctor-patient communication and the doctor-patient relationship. When I share this with the medical students, I tell them that I actually remember the days before the Internet, so I'm sure they think I'm really old. The 1900s, yeah. Yes, the 1900s, is right. I think we underestimate sometimes what an impact the Internet really had on the doctor-patient relationship, and there's so much information out there, which can be great. It can educate, empower, support patients, but along with that comes challenges for physicians

and health care providers who, as we saw in this episode, can get frustrated with this idea of, you know, the doctor, Google. So my colleagues and I have studied this over the years to try to better understand what happens in these settings. And through that, we developed the stoplight typology. and the doctor in this episode is this perfect example of what we call the red light doctor, right? So this is the one who doesn't even acknowledge the question and just says, stay off the internet. Right.

Okay. You're saying that's bad? So our research actually shows that this red light response is really ineffective. If the goal from a doctor saying it is to keep people off the internet, it doesn't work. Most patients and family members still go online anyway, right? And we see that in this episode. Kevin says the exact same thing. I went on Google anyway.

Yeah. Yep. And you should have seen how excited I was when I watched that episode. I was like, this is my research. Come to life. So then what should that doctor's response have been? If that was an example of red light, you were talking about stoplight. What does stoplight look like?

Yeah. So in the stoplight model, so there's the red light, then there's the, yellow light, right? So we find that what some doctors do is use a cautious approach. They say, you know, I understand people like to go online, but you need to be careful if you do. And then we also find that there are doctors who use what we call the green light approach. And so the green light approach is when the doctor validates, you know, the patient's effort to learn more and answers their, their questions. And we've shown in our research that patients are obviously, it won't surprise you, they're more satisfied with the greenlight approach,

but there's better outcome. So like this doctor could have said something like, you know, when Miguel asked the question, he could have said something like, I know this can be really difficult to be waiting for answers. I can appreciate you'd want to look online for more information. And then just say what drug they administered, say we're monitoring for side effects. And then some doctors we find who use this approach, they actually take it a step further, which I really like and do what we call an information prescription. So they might say something like a great place to read more about this is, you know, the March of Dimes website or some other website.

And they refer them to a good quality website. And I think what this illustrates for me is I don't want to be dissing on doctors at all. I work with a lot of doctors and have doctors as family members. And I know this is really challenging. And I think that this red light approach often comes from a place of just wanting to protect the patient and family, right, from any undue, undue anxiety. And I really believe that most of the time that's where it's coming from. I just think, and I, whenever I talk about this with doctors or other clinicians, I just show them the data and say, this approach doesn't actually work. It's not doing what you want it to do.

Yeah. After all of this research and gathering all of this knowledge and information that you have, is it possible that the medical community could develop a website or form of communication that would be effective in communicating with patients? Is that what WebMD is supposed to be? Is that— I mean, I think it's what WebMD is supposed to be. I'm not sure if it is.

Sure. I mean, I think that there, you know, there are a lot of really great resources out there. I think it's hard to say there's just one good resource for everything, right? Because there's so many different types of physical illness and mental illness. So many types of health care, you know, health care situations people can have. What I really try to encourage clinicians to do and even patients to do is to, you know, for patients to ask doctors to say up front, you know, I'm somebody who really likes to go online. And could you recommend to me where you think, you know, is a good place that I could look for information about my, you know, about my condition or my family member's condition? Okay.

So that, again, that kind of, I think what happens a lot of times is doctors just wait for patients to bring it up and then they'll bring up a question that they've read rather than just, I think we just need to acknowledge up front. I mean, we know from the data, most people are going online. I mean, now with these AI tools, you can put in your symptoms and you can let chat GPT diagnose you, not that I'm saying that that's what you should do, but like, it's out there and it's happening, and I think it should just be what's assumed and what's expected. I think, karma, like, this is such a great point because I think in any situation, what people desire most is to be heard, right? And so the idea that you are acknowledging that they're trying to inform,

themselves in some form a way, and you can just help direct the information that they're finding is much better than just saying, like, please don't do that. In situations, yeah. You don't know better than that. And I think that idea of being spoken down to or dismissed readily is something that leads a lot of people like, well, maybe I just won't go in many situations. I'll just figure it out on my own because I know the doctor already thinks that they know what's going on in my body better than I do.

Right. You know, so. And karma, do you find that your research is factoring in now to, what doctors are potentially being taught in medical school? Like, is this becoming part of the curriculum moving forward of how to talk to patients? Well, it is at the University of Florida because I'm teaching it. I don't know if it is other places. But, I mean, I think it is.

I don't know for certain how it's being taught everywhere. But I think it's certainly, you know, recognized. And, I mean, you think about the generation who are now in medical school. I mean, you know, they've grown up with this. They have a different kind of approach to it than maybe some of our doctors who are practicing who've been around longer. And Sterling, just to your point, I wanted to say, you know, you're exactly right. And there's so much research to support that people want to be listened and heard and understood and how that makes such a difference. And we also, our research has also shown that when that red light gets used, guess what?

if they go online again, they're not going to talk to the doctor about it. And that can really lead to confusion, to misunderstanding, and even at worst, like poor patient outcomes with some sort of contraindication with medicine or something like that. Thank you. This is all so fascinating and so relevant, like you said, to this particular episode and just something I hadn't thought so much about, but now it's like, it makes so much sense. Yeah. Thank you so much for calling to speak with us. Oh, well, it's really been my pleasure. And if you don't mind, I just want to say one more thing to you guys.

In addition to being a professor, I'm also the mother of a theater kid. Uh-oh. Okay. So as the parent of a child whose dream is to be on stage and screen, one thing I have loved about your podcast is hearing you all talk about your experiences and especially about how your parents just unconditionally supported you. and believed in you, that's been really meaningful for me. Oh, come on, Dr. Violin. I know he's calling him, but I just got excited. I'm always to call you, doctor. We appreciate it.

That means the world to us. And what is your young person's name who has a desire to be on stage and screen? Well, her name is Madeline May Lincoln. Her first love is musical theater. She was just Tracy and Hairsprays. I mean, come on. Beauty. I love that.

Just you gave her the name of a Broadway story. Yeah, you really did. That name is bound to be in life. Tell Madeline, we look forward to seeing her on stage, and I can't wait to see her at work. All right. I will do that. You got it. Thank you so much for your time.

All right. Thank you, guys. Have a good day. That was a fruitful conversation. I recently was talking to someone who said that they sometimes don't believe in going to doctors because they just sort of make them feel that what's inside their body isn't real, you know, and like the idea of being heard, it means so much. There's all these statistics with regards to mortality rates for black moms and babies who are going through OBGYNs and

how they do much better with other black female doctors than with those that don't look like them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a real, this knee-jerk thing that can happen amongst a highly intelligent subset of the population to think that they always know better. You may, but you still got to listen. Sure. Rachel has worked with doctors in kind of medical adjacent capacities in several occasions. And the thing that she has learned is that doctors spend 12 years of their life learning about medicine. Right.

And nothing else. Right. They do not go to business school. Yeah. They do not have psychology classes. Sure. They might have lost some social skill abilities. And that's why the phrase bedside manner encompasses a lot of different things because they are hyper-intelligent when it comes to medicine where they have spent all their time.

But if you try to get a doctor to understand how to run a private practice and to market and to market and advertise but also speak to every kind of person that's going to come through their door, it takes a lot more ongoing education to master all those things. So it's nice to know that karma byland is out there helping them navigate those spaces. Absolutely, especially in Florida. Yes, we need it. Florida needs all the help people. Keep it in. Hey. I'm from Florida.

I can't say that. If you want to reach out to us, I'm guessing we've got a lot of emails from doctors now. That was us pod at gmail.com or... Doctors call us now at 412501-3028. What do you got to say for you? yourself. Guys, thank you for another lovely episode. We'll see you next week.

That Was Us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da da da da. That was us.