That Was Us - Jack's Secret | "Songbird Road: Part One" (311) with special guest Griffin Dunne

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

This week, a special guest joins us for the rewatch of Season 3, Episode 11: Songbird Road Part 1... Griffin Dunne AKA Nicky! Griffin chats with Mandy, Chris, and Sterling about what it was like landing the role of Nicky, how much This Is Us creator Dan Fogelman told Griffin about Nicky's arc for the rest of the series, and what it felt like for Griffin to delve into those deeply emotional places with his character. Plus, everyone discusses the storyline in this episode, including how Rebecca felt discovering Jack's lie, the tragic event that happened to Nicky in Vietnam, and how the Big Three feel finally finding their Uncle after all this time. That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: To get 6 bottles of wine for $39.99, head to NakedWines.com/TWU and use code TWU for both the code AND PASSWORD. Give your summer closet an upgrade with Quince. Go to quince.com/twu for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty-five -day returns. Buy four cartons and get the fifth free, at davidprotein.com/thatwasus Humans aren’t perfect, but David is. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:32 Discussion 01:21:54 Outro Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz, Rob Holysz & Jeph Porter Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards #thisisus #thatwasus #griffindunne Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of that was us, we are diving into season three, episode 11. Songbird Road Part 1. Jack pays a visit to Nikki in secret, one that the rest of the Pearson family won't discover until years later. And in Vietnam, we finally learn the tragic event that's been haunting Nikki

for decades. Good afternoon. Good morning. Good evening. Hello, friends. It's morning here in sunny, Southern California. It's very much overcast, but it's a lovely day because you guys are here. And I love you all. Oh, we love you.

somebody else here we have a very very special guest yes we do he is an actor a director a producer a writer an author yes most recently of his family memoir the friday afternoon club wow you might know him from american werewolf in london after hours come on um directing practical magic one of my faves childhood faves oh yeah um but you also know him as uh as nicky pierce Yeah. From This Is Us, please welcome our friend, Griffin Dunn. How are you? Hi, there we are. Hello. Hi. How are you? How are you? This is so right for a visual gag of seeing me for the first time and so long. Just fully nude and repose. I just love that. That's hilarious. You look good, man. How to hell are you? I'm really good.

I'm really, really good. I'm digging more. Did I love paradise? Oh, right? Thank you very much, man. I appreciate it. I just, I'm just riveting. I can't wait for a, see what the hell's going to go on.

Right? Thank you. Thank you. I don't know if Chris told you. I saw him in Soderberg's movie and he just killed it. Chris always killed. Everyone's crushing it. Chris kills.

How are things in New York? Things are hot, hot, East Village hot. Yeah. Like sexually? or weather-wise or what? I'm both. Yeah? Yes, it is, it's very hot outside.

Good. I like how it is. It's a hot time to be hot. Yeah. Last time we kind of saw each other as a group, we went to an event for your book that I have here. That's right. Are you still out promoting it or are you done with those rounds or it's an incredible story, man? Such a great book.

Thank you. You know, I, it just came. mountain paperback um this this week i believe okay and i am still um i'm still doing it it's it's it's such a different thing than uh uh things i promoted before because it is so personal and you know it's a one man sort of thing and to write a book that people actually read and and have an effect on uh i i'm just i'm just taking advantage of the moment so i'm i'm you know, going to conferences and talking about, you know, the domestic violence and the court system and victims' rights and all kind of stemming out of this book. It's led to just another

avenue in The Road of Life that's that I've just been writing ever since. I listened to the whole thing so I could have you in my ear. I love being there. You read his book? Right there in my earhole. I was so excited when I found out that you were going to be on this show. You are a member of the, in my mind, in my heart, this mythical, artistic, bohemian social class of the New York 70s that you were a mythical figure in my mind before you showed up on set. And I was so excited to meet you. And I think the first time we met, I saw you, I saw you at base camp, and I gave you a lift. You gave me a lift home in your hot, antique car.

I had the Cadillac at the time. And I saw Griffin, I'm like, where are you going? He's going to the Chateau. And I said, you want to ride? Cool. If I could say, one of the greatest moments of my life was cruising down Sunset Boulevard with Griffin Dunn, going to the Chateau Marmar. We fit right in. And every story I hear, every documentary, any podcast, anyone who had any kind of artistic or social importance of the last, you know, 40 or 50 years, they tell a story, I was at a cocktail party.

And the next part of that sentence is always with Griffin done. And I'm dead serious, man. Everywhere I turned, everywhere I turned, you were just in the mix. You were just there. So I'm very happy to see you today. I'm happy to see all you guys. I miss you terribly. It's so much fun.

So much fun. I love going to work every day. Right on. And today in episode 311, we meet officially. Yeah. Nikki Pearson. Yeah. Present day, Nicky.

Present day. Exactly. Present day Nick. Piers. Yeah. It was an interesting way to start work, like diving right in the deep end. with you guys, you know, at the lowest point in Uncle Nicky's life. Yeah, right.

And that was my first day. And on that set, and, you know, everybody came to play. I didn't know anyone, and which couldn't have been more perfect. Yes. You guys just, your character is the big three just to send it on my problem. On the trailer. Yeah. In the trailer, in my face.

have a couple of memories. It was, it was just, me, Justin, and Chrissy were there with Griffin done. And first day, like, barely had time for introductions or anything like that. And we're sort of just in the trailer. It's a very cramped space or what have you. And just kind of watching Griffin doing his thing. And, like, it was this wonderful synchronicity of actor and character. We were all like, what the hell does he do? But, like, in the best way possible, because we're like, I have no idea how to behave in this space right now. Like, you've made it so delightfully awkward in the best way possible, bro. That's awesome.

Yeah, it was perfect. It was good. I figured Uncle Nikki, you know, was alone and hadn't probably had a conversation with anybody in a long time except himself. Yeah. So we talked to himself a lot. And I just kept talking to myself while you guys were right there. off camera. Great.

Constantly all the way through and made it really weird. Wow. But it was a great way to get to know you guys as both characters and actors, you know. It was wonderful. That's fantastic. Of all the things that you've done creatively over the years is this is the longest you've spent on a TV show, right? As a character? Absolutely.

I was just waiting for someone to reel. that every pilot I've ever been on or even the first episodes of a season quickly gets canceled. And I was waiting for the connective thread to come back to me, but it hadn't. And you know, it really came out of the, out of the blue because, you know, I was kind of at a point where I was, I was burning out, I wouldn't say burning out on acting

because I wasn't doing that much acting. But when I was, it was so infrequent and descending into other people's shoots who had been working and then being the stranger for a week or so and then going away. And I wasn't really getting much out of it. And in the last gasp of trying to find some enthusiasm for this profession, I killed myself to get into, I took a checkoff, an acting class and just checkoff. that was taught by a visiting teacher from the Russian acting school,

or the Royal Russian acting school, but where Stanislausky learned. And he, through an interpreter, he taught Chekhov, which I'd never done on stage, and it was always a little daunted by. But I'd reached a certain point where suddenly I could read Chekhov and read these tragic funny characters and play a guy like Ivanov and to play Ivanov

and I understood what it was to be tragic and hilarious I just had I just hit that Chicobian age and and you know that was just to be

to be ridiculous and terribly sad and have your sadness look funny and all of a sudden Dan and and Kevin reached out out to me to play the ultimate Chikovian guy in Uncle Nicky. It was an unbelievable coincidence. Wow.

And I, and then I read the part. I went, this is like Ivanov. This is the guy who's with the Samovar who's going to lose his estate. You know, this is the, the downtrodden surf who's, you know, got a backache. You know, it just was like, I knew who this guy was. Yeah. Although I felt I was too young to play them. But that's the other way.

Well, they had to age you up. Look, they were great. They were great about aging people. Not enough makeup. We've all been through the aging process, some more gracefully than others. You did fine. You did fine. So the other funny thing is I'm looking, and I hadn't seen it a while, but I looked at the Nikki's intro in the two episodes.

And one of the characters says, you know, how old is he? and he's 70. I don't know why I missed that, but I was assumed I was, you know, like 70. Anyway, last week, not to be cloying. Well, a few days ago, I turned 70. Happy birthday. Thank you.

That's great-clowing of me. Make you wish me a happy birthday. But it was like, interesting. Now I'm old enough to play Nikki. Now you are. Now you are. Listen, I've felt the same way. We're all, I'm, Chris and, and,

Chrissy are actually the only people in the show, I think, were the ages that their characters are supposed to be. Oh, where it lined up? Because lined up. Like, when Chrissy was 36, when we started the show, with 36. I'm four years older than Randall, just playing a little bit. And then I was much older with a lot of bloat and gout and all kinds of stuff that happened with my fat suits.

It was interesting. It's all good. So in episode 311, we find, Jack has received this postcard from Clark Kent correct a.k.a. Nicky and he's he's if can we kind of kick it off with him

letting he's going on a mysterious kind of weekend trip right? Yeah he tells Rebecca that he has to he lies and says he has to go on a work trip right or that he's going to go he's visiting like a work buddy. Something like that. Yeah. And the big thing is he's been getting these cards at work for some time, but then he got a postcard sent to his house. Right. And once he saw it sent to his house, he's like, I got to have to do something about this. I got to put a stop to this. And at this point, as the audience, we know who these

postcards are coming from. We do. And we know that, that the all-powerful Jack has just lied to his wife. Yeah. And off he goes, off he goes to meet his brother in the, in the former, Timeline played by Michael Angerrano. Correct. And he essentially has the conversation about how he doesn't want him to reach out to the family anymore. Right. He definitely doesn't want him to reach out to him at home. And we see Michael Angerano essentially attempt to, to, Nikki, attempt to explain himself.

There's a couple of things I want to just add for texture. There is, before he leaves the house, it seems like Kev is having a little bit of a mood back in the past and doesn't want his dad to go. And they have a quick conversation, but we don't know exactly what's said between the two of them before he hits the road. And then as they're going, as Jack is driving to see Nicky, there's a flashback to when the two of them are kids. And they're talking about what kind of house Nikki wants to have. He's going to have a big boat and he's going to have two houses. It's going to be on the lake and it's going to be really awesome. And it's met then in the present or in the past with Jack coming up to this sort of dilapidated trailer.

Right, right, where ultimately his brother has been dwelling. Did you ever meet Michael and Gerrano? You guys know each other? Yeah, we'd actually work together and played father and son. Whoa. Are you serious? Yeah. What project was that?

By the way, that was not just casting, inspired, you know, doing research. That was just a coincidence. And we didn't have time to like, I'm going to do this and you're going to do that so we know. But that also lined up where some of our gestures, you know, copied each other. It was kind of eerie. Yeah. On this show or on the original project? On this is us, yeah.

What was the original project you guys did together? It was called Snow Angels. And it was based on a book, it had. Sam Rockwell was in it. So he did this movie, Snow Angels, that was so grim, and it had suicide and all sorts of horrible things. And then he goes off and does this hilarious weed movie with Seth Rogen. Yeah. And didn't even invite you.

Yeah. Invite you alone. But anyway, that's where I knew him from. Oh, wow. It's my small love. And we just, you know, it all happened very, very fast. But the only time we overlapped and shooting was in the makeup trailer.

Sure. And then we quickly took a picture of ourselves. Aw. Yeah. Nice. Oh, man, do you have that? Send me that photo. I do have it. Yeah, we'll put it up on Instagram.

Our listeners love to see that. All right, so young Nikki answers. Jack tells him, you can't write me at home anymore. Jack turns to leave. Nikki invites him to have a drink. He says, I don't drink. He's like, I got Nesquick, right? Nesquick, that was a nice...

It was a nice touch. Did anybody have that in their house growing up? Nesquick, no. Yeah, I did. You did? Carnation instant breakfast. You're going to love it in an instant. But yeah, that's...

But the Nesquick was something. They sit down. It's interesting. You see Milo sitting on the couch, but like not sitting back. Yeah, he's not comfortable. He's not comfortable. He's not planning on staying. No, no.

We're here for a hot second. and whatnot, Nikki's going ahead, mixing up the nest quick as he has a drink and a cigarette and gives Jack the Nesquick. Evidently, it's not the tastiest. It didn't look like it was the tastiest. It looked very thick and clumpy and not very well sort of like mixed together. You know what I'm saying? You can't even make Nesbook. Yep. He wound up telling his brother, he's like, you know, I had a house, but you know, this is much easier. Like, it's not hard to take care of. He gives Jack a picture of his platoon, right? sees the fellas there, whatnot.

And then Nikki starts scratching his elbow. He's got a bad habit. They start laughing for a second because things are sort of awkward. It's not as bad as mom's chili lasagna. And they start sort of just reminiscing and having a moment of connection. Of connection about the past. Well, you didn't think that that connection was going to happen at all, but they allowed themselves to slip into a moment of connection, which was nice.

There's this theme over these next few episodes about that, the power. of being able to reminisce yeah you know being able to have somebody in your life who who knew you when yeah or you know there's there's a power in in the same way that you you share these things griffin in your in your memoir to be able to to communicate them i yeah it was just it's it was a powerful kind of through line for these episodes you know uh it's sorry to bring it back to my birthday but uh people i did give a party and there were toast and it was my turn to toast myself i guess or thank people for coming and uh and it was that exact thing um i just i i thank the people or i i was i there were people there who were very much alive yeah you know

were my peers very much alive and knew every single person in the book right and of my family and And then there were the vast majority who didn't know any of this, didn't know any, you know, didn't know my family. And maybe they'd heard a few stories that I'd told over the years as friends. But there was a real distinction of like two different lives, you know, and that was, and that was reminiscent. And that's what, you know, that's what Milo's, you know, character had. You know, that was the one person who knew him when he was at that time in his life that he denied. We'll be right back with more. That was us. Hold on, everyone. Let's set the mood, right?

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That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash T-W-U to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash T-W-U. I think I've just gotten to this point in my life. it's, it's, I mean, it's midlife. It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, a realization, like these gatherings that you talk about, these birthday parties, these reunions, these, I mean, even funerals, graduate, whatever they are, whatever the gathering is, there's, they used to feel, you know, there's a point in my life, I don't need a birthday party. Yeah, I don't want to be celebrated. I don't, you know, I wouldn't have to celebrate. Now, it's like, can I get a group of people together who remind me that I exist?

Yeah. Can I get a group, can I get a group of people together who knew me when? Yeah. Who, because as I tip over into the second half of life, I start to, I feel like I'm drifting. Like, I feel like, like, I'm losing kind of a scope of, like, focus on who I am or what doing here or what I'm supposed to be doing here or any of these things. And so I don't know, there's just the importance of why it's important for them to find Nikki. Yeah. Why it's important. And I think we'll get into this in 312, but like the idea of, you know, siblings living the same

experience, but having two very, very different perceptions of like what happened in the past is really interesting and like you can't quite there's no other relationship that mimics that in quite the same way you know what i mean your lived history like only your siblings know yes you guys were having that collective experience and yeah it was just it's very looking at like you know kate's perspective of that sequin fight versus randall's perspective of the plate being smashed and yeah is really interesting but it's like jack has no other connection to his family right Like all he ever wanted was his own family, which he made. But there's no other connection to his like his origin story and something that like, life before and something that he, there's a lot of pain and there's no acknowledgement of that pain.

It's just been sort of, it's been compartmentalized and metastasized in another way. It's been put in a drawer and getting these postcards and then seeing his. brother in person, obviously, is going to flood his memory, like, so viscerally with, like, something that he's been trying to, like, quell for years, right? And forget about, essentially. I think it's also related to, which is why Kim O'Brien is the co-writer of this episode, who wrote the things that they carried, probably one of the greatest Vietnam books ever written.

You know, the compartmentalized that Jack is doing is also the way. war. Yeah. And his and his brother reminds him of the war, of death, of, of, of failure and drugs and where he could have gone himself. Sure. So it's a, I, I would just thought it was a, you know, very strong statement on, on how different people, in this case, siblings deal with PTSD.

Yeah. post-traumatic disorder. And, you know, that's a, that's one of the things the, when, you know, I'm stopped like, you know, in an airport or something like that, one of the, and I've been to the War Museum, the World War II Museum in New Orleans in particular, are veterans who stop me and stay with, you know, a little catch in their voice. how important it was to them to see someone like me represented. Really?

That reflected their, you know, their feelings, their experience. Yeah, that time period was such a traumatic abusing of a generation of young men in a way that's kind of unfathomable. Like we put them through these things and then offer them minimal. Yeah, or nothing in return as far as support or reintegration or therapy or any of those things. Or many times absolute hostility. Sure. Yeah, yeah. You know, I remember as a kid seeing a young guy carrying his duffel, you know, on his way to catch a plane or a bus or something.

It was a bus, actually. And kids, these little hippie twerps, you know, who, you know, probably got deferments or mommy and daddy to get them out of the draft. Bursing this kid, you know, it was like their age. Yeah. And even though I was like 13, I was, I was shamed for those little brats and felt so bad for that kid. Yeah. So these compartmentalizations become survival mechanisms. You know, people have to tuck it away and not address it because it's, it seems unaddressable.

Like, even if you started, as Nikki says in these first episodes, so I go to a meeting. Okay. Then what? Like, the problem seems so big. Insurmountable. Insurmountable. How would you even start to address any of this? Yeah.

Well, and, you know, to speak to this episode. Jack gets home after he leaves Nikki and tells this half-truth about what he saw. He's like, actually, I didn't go see a work friend. I saw an old war buddy, and we'd had a bit of a falling out. And Rebecca immediately sort of is shocked, but jumps on this and mentions the idea of therapy. And he completely brushes it off. And it's like, wow, this guy just like, it was a different time. It was a different era, a different generation.

like he doesn't want to acknowledge it speak about it it's like i told you all i need to say about it let me handle it and digest it in my own way and it just like it reminded me i was like oh yeah so like as all of us do to a certain extent like jack had his own secrets rebecca certainly had her secrets nicky had his secrets like everybody we keep secrets from those that we love sure but i was like yeah jack jack too there was just there was a certain part of him that he never ever revealed, even to those closest to him. Right. It's a second time, too, because it's right off of that sort of reminiscing that they

have that Nikki tries to broach Vietnam, and he's like, I can't go back. Nope. Like, I can't go back. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to talk about it. He says, it's good to see you, Nick. Nicky asks him, did I ruin your life? He goes, no, Nick, I have a good life.

And he shows a picture of his family. And he shows him a picture of his family. Then we know that when the big three come to see him, that he actually had seen them before. Well, he knew they existed. He knew they existed. He even goes, Randall's a different color. Yeah, that was great. He's a different color.

Which was wonderful. It was nice to know so that even though we're meeting him for the first time, he'd actually had some framework of who to expect, right? We as actors kind of get the information as it's rolled out to us sometimes, especially when we jump in. in the middle of a project episodically. Was there any kind of catching up given to you by Dan or anything backstory? Mostly with Kevin and then later with Tim O'Brien where the backstory, like with Tim was really just talking about the war,

which have always fascinated me, which I was just too young to be, had a draft card, but just too young to be, but was obsessed with it. So really the backstory of what, what my war experience might have been and where I would would have been and and with Kevin you know how long I'd been in this trailer um

uh you know who where I got it what you know why yeah I'm sure you didn't have time to get through two and a half right two and a half seasons of the show either did was Dan offering no no and I did not and I didn't realize until I was in it that the the seeds had already been planted about Uncle Nicky like in another season earlier season one

in season one that he was mentioned I didn't realize it went back that far I thought this was like I thought it was just something they thought up in the writer's room to do

you know for this season but in fact these mad scientists and already been talking about it's true yeah and at the end of season two is when when we got like the silhouette of him in his trailer, right? Yes. I believe you're right.

Yes. At the end of season two, we actually saw you. That's right. I believe so. Or if it wasn't the end of season two, it was maybe sometime in season three. Yeah. Or top of season three? Maybe top of season three.

But they had been dropping, you know, they had been dropping little breadcrumbs for the audience, essentially like, big character coming. Yeah. Big character coming. Stay tuned. Who will it be? Who will play him? Thank God I didn't know that. You killed it, bro.

You killed it. Yeah. Okay, so that timeline sort of finishes off a little bit. There's things that can dovetail back to it. But we catch up with the older Pearson's, or present-day Pearson's, whatever, discussing Nikki being alive. They know Dad didn't tell the full truth, and Randall and Kev are going to go meet Nicky, right? Rebecca is like, I'm good. She decides to opt out.

She doesn't want to go on this little road trip, but she supports her son's going to do it. Kate says she can't make it. She's, you know, on the other side of the country. She's pregnant. It's a lot. A lot of stuff going on, okay. Randall and Beth real quick have a scene where Beth's nervous about some interviews

that are coming up. Randall gives her a pep talk. It doesn't go quite right the first time, gives her another one. It goes a little bit better. But Randall's concerned on what if we get there and we don't find them. Like, he talks about how when he went to go find William, like he had all these things imagined in his head, but the one thing that scared him the most is like,

what if I got there and he just wasn't there? And he knew his brother was invested and was worried that that might be what would happen. Exactly. You also, Griffin, you're a documentarian. You did a documentary about your hand, Joan, Joan Didion. The center will not hold. In all of these investigations,

of your past, were there, I'm sure there were difficult conversations, or maybe not. I mean, what was that, were, was there a Nicholas Pearson in your life that you were pursuing to talk to or to interview or to get a hold of that was, that was tricky? It's so strange. I wrote Dan about this recently. something occurred to me in this past year that I'm playing a guy named Nicky my father's name is Nick he was an alcoholic who left Los Angeles broke and drunk and lived in a cabin isolated right right for and and lived in a cabin and and sobered up but the and the parallels and he was suicidal and that those parallels didn't really occur to me how it from my from my own particular

life although it's okay to say this because I have my brother's blessing and when I wrote the book I thought of my brother, who was at a, my younger brother by two years, who was struggling with mental health. And, you know, and all of us, you know, everyone in our family, and I mean extended family as well, has had bouts with alcohol or mental illness. And so I didn't have to look far. And I also, you know, as I said, I was fascinated by Vietnam and the terror of it, the injustice of it. And so I'd seen many documentaries about Vietnam, starting with hearts and minds, which won an Academy Award. But also John Houston was the first person to make a documentary. about PTSD.

That's not what they called it. They called it Shell shock. And he filmed people right after they'd returned home and they were in mental institutions and just put a camera and filmed a black and white

these interviews. And I looked at those a lot. Yeah. So there was a lot to pull from. Yeah. We've talked about it a lot in this podcast. Those parallels and similarities run kind of eerily through all of our experiences. Yeah, it's a little haunting sometimes.

Like, especially early on before we started injecting, before the writers got to know us and started injecting our actual lives into the characters here and there. Like, there are some spooky, spooky similarities for everybody involved. Yeah, it was, it was eerie. I'm just going to continue. Yeah, jump in. Love it. Don't let us interrupt. Kate decides to come.

She surprises her brothers. They all decide. All three of them are going on this road trip. Rebecca's watching as they leave, and there's an echo of Rebecca watching Jack as he leaves to go see Nikki as well in the past. Siblings are giving Randall crap. I think it's a favorite pastime of my brother and sister

to give Randall all kinds of grief. But can I tell you one thing that I was excited? excited to learn that Randall's a full-size candy bar guy on Halloween. Most definitely. I was like, that tracks. Most definitely. That is very on brand. We're not going to half-step anything.

No, no, no. Of course not. But it was just nice to give that confirmation. You give pennies? Is that what they say? Yeah, you give our pennies for... On Halloween. I'm like, come on, man, full-size.

Full-size. We mentioned your dad's brother would be 70. Randall's already faced some lies from his family or whatnot, so he's sort of non-phased, unfazed on what's going to happen, right? K-clocked at Mom seemed a little tweaked out by the whole thing. They come up on this old-ass trailer. No one's there.

Kevin's knocking. Randall's like, oh, man, I'm sorry. It doesn't look like it's going to happen. They're about to break and enter. They're about to, you know, he's just knocking on trying to turn around. And then there's like, is anybody even in here? Turn around. And there he is.

Here comes O'Griffon, man. Here comes Nicky in the flesh. And we're just like, oh, shit. The booze in a bag. You know what I'm saying? As it should be. Nobody knows what's in there. I can keep in my bag what I want in my bag.

And then we go to a commercial, we come back and we're all in there. And I think this was our first scene, was just being in the trailer. And I'm telling you guys, it was so wonderful. When someone is so generous as you were Griffin and just goes for it. And we're all there. You know, Chrissy Metz can't lie. Chrissy Metz is incapable. And I would look at her face, and Chrissy Metz was like, I don't know what's happening.

And me and Jessica were like, it's okay. Let's just stay out here together. It's going to be okay. We're part of a process. Get on board. I love it. This isn't a job. This isn't an experience.

This is an experience. It is. It was so good because he's just, he's like, looking under. He's like looking in the cabinets and trying to find stuff. And we're like, we have no idea. I was like, it's not that big, bro. Whatever you're looking for, it can't be that far away. He was committed.

It was like, it was a Stanislausky exercise. And like, this man is trying to find something. This is a real search that's happening right now. And we are just bearing witness. Yes. I love it. Oh, my God. You may be trying to have a conversation.

but Nikki has an action. Yeah. I love, though, the like, I'm Kevin, I'm Jack Pearson's son. Yes. I love that introduction. It's beautiful. It's pretty great. Because, well, even before, like, before we even get to the trailer, he goes, does Jack know you're here?

And we have to tell him that he's dead. And he's like, when did he pass? And, like, 1998. And it's sort of like hitting everybody at the same time. Like, this guy had no idea. that his brother has been dead for this amount of time. I'm curious, just for you and the interaction, and you're sort of thinking through it, Griffin,

like, what was that sort of just, like, receiving the information like, if you can recall at all? It's one of those moments that, you know, we've all faced as an actor of being, you know, delivered the bad news, and if you force it, it's going to look fake, and that would be the most humiliating thing ever. to be acting melodramatic yeah um so i i just sort of um i i tried not to plan anything right

and that which got me through a lot on this and where i would actually deliberately be unprepared i'd be prepared with the lines but i wouldn't have any particular mission and just sort of so i would just listen with each take i would just just, like, try to digest what I was hearing in a different way. And if it looked grief-stricken, then it looked grief-stricken. Or if it looked like that date doesn't line up. I thought he would have been dead by, you know, doing the math. You can look just as grief-stricken as, you know, being, oh, my God, you know, the reaction we have seen before.

But I could hide behind I could avoid a stereotype because Nikki's thought process was eccentric unlike anyone else So any reaction would have been within the realm of Nikki's truth Yeah, it was weird because you Not weird, but you watch that reaction

And it's so genius because it's like Is he sad? Did he expect it? Did he know? Like it just because you just sort of you watch yourself sort of like, hear the news, take it in, and you're like, how does he feel? Like, it's so fascinating. It is. I also think you've just unlocked an acting trick for me.

And I think doing mental math might apply to a lot of different scenarios. That would work for inquisitive. That would work for somber. Absolutely. If I just decided to do a literal math problem in my head. Yeah. Yeah, just think of the check amount and then add the tip. Add the tip.

Add the tip. Yeah, and then add the tip. 10%? 10%? No, 20%. 25. 25. So if I do 10, 10, and then 5.

Yeah. And then you, the intercut with a, you know, a funeral, a train going by. Yes, anything. A baby being held up in the delivery. room and it will be fascinating there's Stanislovsky I'm using it I'm using it there's Meisner there's Stanislovsky and then there's done internal math there's done internal math I'm done yeah how'd you do that I done it uh Nikki he starts to tell them about um what happened to him in Vietnam how you know he was a medic and he sort of got high on his own supply and he got

sort of taken home for psychiatric reasons, what have you. And then they ask him, why did Dad tell us you died there? And then Nikki says, he should have never come from me. And then we go back to the flashback. And this, this shit was pretty epic. I mean, because we'd already seen, we'd heard an explosion from before. And we saw Jack jump into the water to go swim to see what happens, right?

So now we go back to before that explosion, and Nikki's taking a nap, right? Eating a candy bar and this young Vietnamese boy, he is standing over him, just looking at him, right? And we know Nikki has sort of ambivalent feelings regarding the youth, the Vietnamese youth, who they could grow up to be, et cetera, et cetera. So you don't know exactly how he's going to relate to the boy.

Sure. But the boy is just innocent and pure and everything, right? But it's that attitude that makes this all feel dangerous. Very precarious, yes. Yes. Like, what way is this going to go? Nikki's got this kind of crazy laugh. Yeah.

This kind of maniacal laugh. Then he invites this kid to go fishing. Yeah. And you know that there's been an explosion and you know that Jack's jumped into the water. Yeah. So you're just starting to put these pieces. together of like, oh, goodness. But it looks like it's,

it looks like it's going okay. Sure. Right. He took the glasses off his face and he's like, hey, and then he gives him the candy bar and they have a little chuckle with each other. It takes his glasses, he's like, you want to go fishing, let's go. So they're going fishing. Then in the fishing boat,

we reveal a big old thing of grenades. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't think... This feels way too dangerous. I don't think we should go fishing with grenades He's a little boy. Yeah. It don't feel right. But he takes the grenade, throws it in the water, boom.

All the fish surface. Yeah. They're having a good time. They're like, all right, let's go get some more fish. Let's find another spot. Griffin, Dunn. Have you ever been grenade fishing? I have not.

Yeah, me neither. But you know, Tim told me this is based on a real incident that. Oh, geez. It happened in a platoon that he was in. Wow. He based that. It's not in the things they carried, but this is actually something that really, really happened. Wow.

Good gracious. You know, this is interesting, it's interesting that you said that because, okay, so the whole time this thing is happening, I'm thinking in my head, the kid made it. Like, I'm sure the kid made it. Like, you know, the way that things happen on network, television, et cetera, et cetera. It's like, we'll find a reveal, and the kid. hops up out of the water and da-da-da-da. And I was like, oh, the kid's going to make it, right? Yeah.

And so they go to do the next one, and they start sort of fighting over the grenade because it's like, the kid wants to do the grenade, and he's like, no, no, no, you shouldn't do the grenade. I'll do the grenade. The pin comes out, grenade slips out of their hands, and it falls into the boat. Yeah. I'm, like, the knot in my stomach is like this, right? And you see, Nicky was like, you know, jump. He's like, jump.

We don't have time. Nick goes over the boat, right? We hear the explosion. Then we flash back to what we'd seen before. Jack jumping into the water. The rest of his group pulls him into a boat and they go try to find him. They pull up Nicky or whatnot. And Jack is like, what did you do?

What did you do? And like, similar to what you just said in terms of mental math, Angerano must have already gone to the Duns, school acting, Jack, because the camera is right up on his face, and it's just confusion, calculation, loss, et cetera. And the whole time Brown's still going, the boy is alive, right? And what it ultimately would like sort of broke my chest wide open. And we talk, and he mentions it later, does Nikki, when that mom? Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. You want to talk about showing up for work on an episodic television show and to have to have to play that moment.

I was thinking of that. I was thinking of that when I rewatched it. I thought, what an interesting journey for that actress, which, because that was that section. You guys did go to Vietnam. Yeah. Not you, but that was not. So she would have been a, you know, presumably, you know, an actress. Sag Akrist.

Her name's Porter Duong. Yes, you're coming in for the day, and you are going to disembow yourself, and we need the shot within an hour. Yeah. Yeah. More, that was us, after this short break. You know that moment when you're at the airport or on set,

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You have to go there. And it made me, I've only been in the face of, like, Like, I've been in the face of that kind of grief on a couple of occasions. One in particular, a friend of mine found out that her husband had taken his life. And she came, because she's very close with Ryan, and she came to see Ryan to let her know what had happened. Like she found out over the phone. And she comes to the door to the house. and she's like, Sterling, he's gone.

Sterling, he's gone. And I'm like, who's gone? What happened? And she's like, she says her husband's name, he's gone. And what happened or whatnot? And I'm like, oh, my God, I hugged her. Her body was like a different color. And there's moments where she tried to hold her own breath

so that she could stop living. And I said, that's not going to work. You have to breathe. You have to keep breathing. And she would hold it to like as long as she could until she like couldn't anymore. And it was, it's something. You see, I've seen grief like after. You know what I'm saying?

Where you have a moment to process or what have you and sort of realize what is transpired. But this person was in the midst of sort of like. figuring out what life looked like now because they'd been married for almost 20 years. And it just sort of made, I don't know, there's something about seeing that woman just wail, just dropped her knees, just the pain, all of it, I don't know. I don't even know if I have anything more coherent to say. It just reminded me of what it is to be in the face of like unadulterated, loss grief you have that monologue about the Vietnamese women

is that in this episode or is that in the next time isn't this one I think it is just in talking about this particular incident in the present yeah in the present day and I just tried not to think of it as a monologue that's when you say for the first time or is it the second time I can't remember because we come back from the flashback because Jack is like I'm done I'm done that's it it's over what have you And then you just come back, it comes back to you and just like, I never got to tell them, right? Like that thing that we saw in the past where you tried to to go there, whatnot.

And it makes me, like, I know it's TV and I know there's got to be dramatic tension. And I was like, dog, just let me say one fucking thing. Like this wasn't an intention. Like Jack left that experience thinking that his brother was so. messed up, that he was capable of purposely taking the life of a child. Right. And that's the reason for... That explains the separation.

The separation. And this young man at that time is like, I just want to tell you, like, listen, I know you think a lot of bad things about me and I think a lot of bad things about myself, but this bad thing is not true. This bad thing is not one that I should be caring, you know? Yeah. yeah i don't know that that would have worked necessarily anyway you don't um i i think i mean it's it's sort of debatable because you know even nicky young nicky was a screw up and was a

uh and was far weaker than than his brother and and you know already was so so damaged and self-destructive and that Jack, you know, went to war to actually get him out. Yeah. And this is how he pays him back. You know, it's like when you're trying to help someone who can't help themselves, you really can't do anything about it. Right. And almost for your own sanity.

And this against the backdrop of a terrible violent war, sometimes you just got to, like, for your own survival, just go, I got to, you know, Yeah. Goodbye. I got to let you go so that I can go live my life. Sure. Because everywhere you come, every time you come into my life, you pull the pin on a

grenade and fuck it up. So I think there's a bit of that going on with Jack. Yeah. I hear you. I mean, you say something to the effect of your old man saw everything in black and white, no grays. He walked away from the first life. Yeah. And once Jack picked the direction, he never changed course.

And there's this sort of something that's replicated in the present and the past, where they're at the gas station, and there's a sign to Bradford, and there's a sign to Pittsburgh. And Jack thinks for a second of going back to his brother, and then he makes a right to Pittsburgh. And that's it. That's the last time you've seen his brother, right? And then I think at a certain point,

Oh, you ask, you ask later on after you tell this story. How he passed away, right? How did he pass away? Randall tells him about the fire and... The heart attack. The heart attack. And Nikki decides to call it a day after reliving all these wonderful memories. Yeah.

And the big three leave. Well, I had a really kind of interesting line, the last sign-off to Kevin. Yeah. So, like, you can't fix this, or you, I know you came here with a plan. You know, sorry to mess it. It was like a really good, tough, ironic Nikki line. It's a good line. It's worth mention.

And I want to mention this flashback now because it sort of plays into the decisions of father and son, right? There's the flashback I said when Jack was about to leave to go see Nikki the first time. he kev is little you know despondent and we go back to that conversation and kev winds up telling his dad like i you know i want to go with you like i like you better than all of them yeah and jack tells me he kept it to himself though he didn't say it out love i knew he didn't like me that much but i get for you that's new information yes geez but he winds up telling I say, hey, man, look, your dad gets a lot of things wrong, and this is something for you to remember because you can either repeat my mistakes or you can correct them, right? So the big three have

left. They're at the same filling station that Jack was at. Bill's Place. The Bill's Place. There you go. Randall's got snacks so that nobody's going to clown him on the way home. And Kev says, that's no way to live, huh? And I can't leave him like Dad did. and the three of them look at each other. And instead of going to Pits, going home, they go back to Bradford. They knock on the door, the door's open. And Nikki's just sort of sitting there, just sort of... You see the back of his head, yeah.

You see the back of his head. He's sort of unresponsive or what have you. And they walk around, as you see on the table, there is a revolver or a gun. I won't call a revolver, because I'm not sure if it is or not. But there's a handgun. Yes. Sitting on the table and we're like, okay, what's going on? Randall gently grabs the gun.

And then again, Nikki repeats to himself, I never got to tell him it was an accident. And then Kev puts his hand on Nikki's shoulder and Sterling cries. That's usually how these things end. It's usually how these things end. It usually ends in Sterling cries. I have like the teary face emoji. as a reminder to yourself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember when I was telling you the story and I had the big three in front of me and I think even off camera, yeah, you guys were off camera. It was on me and in the middle of my close-up, I'm looking at Sterling and he's got that Meryl Street one tier.

Yep, yep, yep. Face, face still. that tear, not just like that's another one falling behind it, behind it. But for my off camera. Yeah, that's darling. I, I've always wanted to cry like that.

Yeah, to be fair, Merrill Meryl got it from Sterling. Yeah, she did. Yeah, I wouldn't think so. Yeah, yeah. I was once, I once had a crying scene in a movie and I was sitting, you know, on the bathroom floor,

are leaning against a thing, and I'm, and I'm crying. And the way I cry in real life, you know, I hate this face. And the director comes up to me, and he goes, um, is there a way you can cry in a different different way you can't? Always what I got. This is it. What you know, I did? And he goes, well, is there a way, like, I just want that, I said, I know, you want

that one tear going down, right? Don't you? Yeah. I don't know how to do that. Yeah. Get somebody else. We had a joke on set that Sterling, Sterling could pick whichever I was closer to the camera.

Exactly. Are cameras over here? Okay, I got you. You guys want to know the secret. It's water in, water out, baby. That's all that. So are you still drinking it? Well, I remember you had a jug.

Yeah, a giant jug. For moonshine that was like, I think he went through two, three-dollar, Five gallons a day. I didn't have to make five gallons. I wish. I wish. I try to do a gallon.

Yeah. And then he just, he wouldn't let himself go to the bathroom. And it's got to leak out somewhere. It's got to come out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's coming here. That's all it is.

It was such a wonderful, I think, to have waited so long to have gotten a chance to meet you, Nikki, right, and Griffin. Yeah. But, like, I think you exceeded expectations on all fronts. Like, for me, as an actor, like, you're just a truly lovely, like, human being. Yeah. And so game, right, to just jump in and play.

And I think as an act, like, when people are willing to come to the sandbox and play, like, that's all you really hope for in the whole thing, right? And I think our audience was like, oh my goodness, we have a new member of the family. That's right. Instant, instant. Because, like, I think if truth be told, writers will see, if it doesn't go well, we'll phase out. You know what I'm saying? But it went exceptionally well.

And then for the next three and a half seasons, we had you to play with. It's friggin' awesome. When I think about the arc of, of Nikki, from that trailer to where he ended up to, it's just, tapering, tapering to health and sobriety, but most of all acceptance in finally finding a family. Family, yeah. I get goosebumps just thinking about it, you know? And I remember I would say,

I would say sometimes they go, well, could he, Nikki, have a slip where we cut to him and he's relapsed and he's drunk and he's thrown? He goes, and they would like laugh But I was kind of serious, but when I look at the actual art, it's so much more interesting than the expected, which was what my, you know, unimaginative idea was. They already thought of that and like, no, no, no, we're better than that. And it was just a careful, each episode that I was in, I was given another gift of love, of, of, that, you know, where a. Nikki was like resistant, resistant, resistant, less resistant.

Maybe you think, oh, oh, wow, that felt really good. Yeah. What, that, that hug, that whatever that connection was. I want more of that. I mean, it was, it was masterful writing. When you look at the two boys at Jack and Nicky as boys, and like you mentioned earlier, Nikki was weaker. Nikki was a screw up.

In the same way that men of Jack's generation, that were Jack's type, were strong, reserved, emotionally, kind of tucked away, that was not a generation that allowed, as you say, acceptance for the week. And Nikki was just trying, just had to survive long enough for a new generation to come along and say that, that's also, that is also okay. Acceptable. You know what I mean? The matter of fact, it's, yeah, the matter of fact, it's really interesting. As a matter of fact, that's, that, it's, you know, it's that time where you realize that the jocks, uh, from high school, uh, who, who, uh, you know, uh, got all the girls and, and, and everybody was making fun of the nerds.

Right. They'd be filling the gas state, fill in the gas tanks. Yes. for the nerds who had, you know, written the most incredible comic book or, you know, invented something or something, you know, and by imagination, you know, imagination was stronger than, you know, muscles. Yeah, that whole nerds thing, like faded out at the end of the 80s, early 90s. And society, as it develops, and therapy becomes more acceptable in things like yoga or meditation or whatever the thing is that acknowledges feeling, that acknowledges vulnerability,

that admires intelligence instead of beating it down or kicking it to the side, it's like all in this character. It's all in this show. You see this little boy. who, with glasses, who is trying to survive a household. Yeah, a bit more sensitive than his older brother. Trying to survive a father who doesn't acknowledge weakness, who goes through the war, and has put himself, has tucked himself away in this trailer to survive as best as he can

until a new generation literally knocks on the door and says, no, no, you're okay. It's really good. you're coming with us. You can be okay. And it just takes him, it takes him a while to, to believe it himself. It's a good episode. It's a very good episode. A good introduction. Thank you for joining us for this. Well, thank you. So good to wish I was in the room with you. Yeah. Next time you're in town. Let's do it. It's just so nice to connect again. We had the best, we had the best time making the show all together, guys. I miss our fam. If anybody, if you're watching us on YouTube, if anybody needs to know anything a little more about Griffin Dunn. In the background of his shot is gritty shitty New York

City are the words I can make out. And then there's an entire bookshelf of books and the only legible word is Hitler. And then and then he swings around, he swings around at one point and over his shoulder just says, I love Dick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. No, it's great. Which was a great show. Which is so perfect because it's a TV show, everyone. show. I remember. I remember. Is it, Griffin? Is it? Not only is it a TV show, it's one of my favorite TV shows of all time, and it stands the test of time. Go watch it. It's available on HBO.

You and Catherine Hahn and Kevin Bacon. Incredible show. But yeah, it was like the perfect backdrop for Griffin done. A Griffin in his natural habitat. That's where I love. Yeah, your man cave. You were talking a little bit about the overall arc of the character and sort of the path to redemption and health and whatnot. And I think it was also interesting because in 312, we see that Kev goes to sort of clean up your trailer.

And then going to clean up your trailer, he sees a bottle of whiskey in there. And we're wondering, like, newly sober himself, does he sort of partake? Does he not partake or whatnot? Mom is telling him how proud she is of him. And we'll deal more with it in the episode. But while Griffin is here, I think one of the beautiful things that happens is that Kev relapses. Like, you were talking about how cool it would be like if Uncle Nicky does. But then it's almost like Nikki is there to help this young man back to himself, right?

And is there anything that you remember about that sort of storyline about your time with Jennifer? Yeah, with Jen Morrison. With Jen Morrison and everything. Like just in terms of like the overall shape of the show for you, talk to us a little bit about. There was a meeting that the three of us went to. That's being an AA meeting. Yeah. And, you know, you never, it was another protective shell taken off, Nikki,

when he goes to this meeting with Jennifer and Kevin. at the meeting and again going against sort of stereotype people were telling a speaker is sharing something terribly personal and heartfelt and we get

the giggles and we have to actually run out you know laughing and it was just like it was a bonding moment you know and we but we were very serious

about the three of us are very serious about sobriety in a way it got across that the three of us were going to be okay that neither one of us were going to relapse yeah um uh even even though that we got the giggles in it it just i don't know it just sort of said something it said something about our commitment um uh but in a in an unexpected way it it made us like part of a community The only way I can describe it Also, I'm going to ask this question And tongue is slightly in cheek But, you know, because it's brown And it's how I do But did you know that Nikki had jungle fever

When he started the show And were you delighted to find out That the fever was, you know, for someone as delightful as Miss Vanessa Bell Calais? I loved her. I love the casting choice. I love the actress itself. We just, somehow, that's another thing.

We're thrown together, and we didn't even have to, like, have a lot of discussion. We just sort of, like, looked at each other. We knew each other were, and it just happened. You certainly didn't see a love interest coming. From this step, from 311 and 312, you didn't think, you know what, pretty soon this is going to be a love interest. Yeah, season six. That's what I see happening. Uh-huh.

Yeah. I can't believe that the show made me sign a nudity waiver, though. Yeah. That was just. I thought that was, it was both exciting and unexpected. Yeah. And totally unnecessary. Yeah.

Yeah. And I showed up to set, you know, in the bathroom and the bungee. It was the screen test in Dan's office that was awkward, though, right? That was the other thing. Why? Yeah. Why now? Is this necessary?

Why am I wearing a dance belt? Running and the string is running up the back. I love it. I love it. Did you know, Griffin, when you signed on to be a part of the show, that you would be going for, like, the entirety of the rest of the series? That's a good question, yeah. Or did you think, like, I'm going to do a few episodes?

Oh, yeah, but not like, oh, I'm going to be here for multiple seasons. And it was a, uh, uh, uh, And it was a big deal. Like, and also you don't know, because you're also, you know, thinking about your life, you know, if it doesn't happen. Right. And I could see enough to know, and had seen enough other shows, to know if he never came back, they would, you know,

come up with a storyline where you wouldn't be dwelling on it. Right. So it was debatable. I really didn't know. But when I found out, it was like, with real you know real uh they they were really excited to tell me and i was excited to get the news and then they told me like where it was going and uh and then my agent renegotiated the contract brains that's right as they should um let's uh set up a call yeah we can see that uh Nikki Pearson is

very important to the show. But I was delighted. And, you know, all of us, you know, you were around long before I arrived, but, you know, just thinking how we started in one place and then a thing called COVID came and then we shut down and then we're sitting in these little boxes with, you know, the plastic on the side and, you know,

in our own world. and but, but, you know, still, you know, really still communicating and still keeping our humor. And, you know,

we had to have be tested, as you remember, all the time. And it was a weekly thing. And, but I didn't work once for three weeks. So I, I always wanted to go to Wohaka. Now, I think we'd had the,

we'd had the vaccines, because I wouldn't have done it if we hadn't. But I don't think we'd have to go. I want to hear this. I don't know this story. And so I go to Oaxaca, which is not so easy, by the way. You, you know, it's a couple of plane strains and automobiles to get. And I finally get to this, Wajaka.

And I check into my little house the end. And it's an incredible town. And I had some numbers of people to look up. And I'm having the most amazing night number. on the back of a motorcycle tearing through town and going into this canteena and that and with artists and writers and all sorts of stuff having an amazing time.

And then next morning I wake up, phone wakes me up and it's the health person for the show saying, you didn't show up for your test today. I'm like, no, got to work for three weeks. I'm like, no, you have to be here for the test. I went, well, I'm not, I'm not, I'm, where are you?

I'm in San Diego. Yeah, which is what I should have said. Although, when I said Wohaka, I thought she was going to die. We heard, we heard this, and we were like, where the fuck is Griffith? I, and it was like, get on the phone. My manager calls, I just got a call from the legal department. You're going to be sued. You're going to be this.

Get on a plane. now, and which I did, and then I had to be quarantined. And then the whole production had to redo the schedule. Yes, it did. Around me. And so my first day back

after and I wasn't sure if everybody knew it, but I knew the minute, everybody, it's an outdoor shot and the whole crew's talking and I've been called to set and I'm talking, talking, I walk on a set, it goes

dead quiet like in one of those westerns where the stranger walks through the bar and tumbleweed and they're all staring at me and not with a nice expression no yeah and I go oh la everybody

and everybody breaks up and all was forgiven I did not ever know this story oh my God was I in trouble I think I heard like Steve beers walking around be like, Griffin Dunn just went to O'Haka in the middle of COVID. Oh, I love it. I am upset.

Oh, God. So I was there. I mean, it took like, it took about 18 to 19 hours to get there. Yeah. And I spent less than 18 to 19 hours in Oaxaca. Oh, wow. God bless you. I'm sorry.

Let's all go sometime. Yeah, let's all go. Yeah. I'm supposed to go to China next. Yeah, yeah. We lost Sterling. We lost him. He's gone. Okay. Thank you for making time for us.

Yeah, thank you, Gryl. There's a lot of fun. Love you. See ya. Bye. Bye. Bye. So that was another fantastic episode. Wow, we had Griffin.

We love him so much. That was awesome. What a character. What a character. What a great human. A legend. As they say. Yeah.

Every time I'm in his presence. We'll have to have him back at some point in time. He is the great, I mean, as evidence, he's the greatest storyteller. And like having, like going out and having a dinner with him, I remember distinctly like in Paso when we were shooting in Paso like at the last season. Yep. Going and having dinner. And he just holds court and tells, like you said, there is this, he is this mythical character. of, like, anything incredible that happened in, like, the late 70s.

He's in Andy Warhol's diary. Like, it's the stories he has, he's like, you know, when I was a kid, and he tells these crazy dinner parties, it's amazing. Even that Wahaka story, it's like, to have the creative clout in your own work, but in your lineage, to walk into a town. and just bring me your artists. Yeah. Bring me your writers. Bring me your finest creators. Your philosophers.

Yeah. Let us ride through the city on motorcycles. You know what I mean? He's the middle of COVID. Yep. He's like, oh, I have some time off. Just a quick international trip. Just a quick international trip in the middle of COVID.

Yeah. Not even like, I'm going to drive my car somewhere, like quietly and like do my thing and not tell anyone. It's like, yeah, like he said. Plains, trains, and automobiles to get where he was going. Next time we get him, hopefully we'll get him in person here at some point. Because I think he did that when we wrapped. When we wrapped the show, show, he's like, I'm going to drive. I'm going to drive back.

He did. I think you're right. And he spent like three weeks driving back, stopped in Marfa where they shot, I love Dick. And, like, just had all these artists and writers that he was meeting up with along the way. He is the guy very akin to like John Wirtis, where you just like, you meet people out in the world. They're like, oh, I know Griffin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

And he's friends with everyone. He's sort of like the de facto mayor of New York. You know what I mean? I feel that same way about Wirtes. Like here in L.A., you walk around places with him. Totally. Like, oh my God, you worked with Wartez. I'm like, yeah, what?

It happens for me, like, at least once a month. And you kind of feel like if you really dug deep, like you would get stories about Griffin Dunn from an unhoused person and Martin Scorsese. Totally. Like, that's the two. Oh, yeah, I shared a bottle of wine with Griffin Dunn. And then Martin Scorsese slept on his couch or something.

Just a mythic beast. And so much more to come with his character. And this next episode, in fact, is sort of the conclusion. It's part two of Songbird Road and Nikki's introduction. So more to come. But, gang, I love hanging with you guys. It's always a pleasure. That was Griffin done.

And that was us. That was us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da-da-da-da-dum. That was us.