That Was Us - Jennifer Morrison and Us | Cassidy Sharp

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

This week on That Was Us, we’re thrilled to be joined in studio by actor and director Jennifer Morrison, who brought Cassidy to life on This Is Us. Jennifer reflects on her journey from acting to directing, the challenges of transitioning from fantasy to grounded drama, and how This Is Us unexpectedly changed her life in a very real way. In this episode, Jennifer chats about: * Playing Cassidy across Seasons 4–6 and navigating her place within the Pearson family * The love quadrangle between Cassidy, Kevin, Zoe, and Nicky * Transitioning from Once Upon a Time to the grounded realism of This Is Us * Why she still had to audition for the role—and what that experience taught her * Her evolution from actor to director and why she feels she has more to contribute behind the camera * The intensity of shooting 100 scenes in 12 days * The challenges of proving herself as a director after years of acting * Her early experiences directing short films and her first feature, which sold to Netflix * Her time on House and the demanding pace of network television * Growing up in a marching band–focused household and how it shaped her work ethic * The surreal story of buying Dan Fogelman’s house after feeling an unexpected connection to it * What makes great writing so impactful for actors and why This Is Us scripts felt like a gift. And a friendly reminder, you can catch new episodes of That Was Us every Monday, a day early, exclusively on Hulu. Available on Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts on Tuesdays like usual!" That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: -With Shipt, it’s never just a delivery order – it’s shopped same day – in the same way you would. Use code "podcast" to get a year of Shipt for only $49 – HALF OFF the regular $99 price – at https://Shipt.com/offer. Terms apply ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a headgum podcast. Welcome to a very special episode of That Was Us. It's special for a lot of reasons. One, if you are watching now, you are seeing a solo Chris Sullivan introducing this episode. And you might think, well, wow, maybe Mandy is at home with a norovirus because living with three children under the age of six is a constant biohazard. And Sterling must be off in New York City. promoting the new season of paradise. But no, they are actually at home watching this episode of That Was Us on Hulu.

Yeah, they were like, we can't wait. It was released early because this episode is now available every Monday, one day early, exclusively on Hulu. Now, don't get me wrong. Nothing else is changing. These episodes are still available on Tuesdays anywhere you get your podcast. So don't worry about that. If you like it the way it is, you can have it the way it is.

So now I am here to introduce the episode on my own, which, you know, I kind of like. It's kind of nice. If you're watching, it's like masterpiece theater with Sully. And I can say whatever I want. I can throw to whoever I want. I could throw to Sterling and we could show you an empty shot of nobody sitting there. What do you think, Sterling? Ah, the best answer he's ever given.

No, but today's episode is also very special because we are interviewing Jen Morrison, the Jen Morrison, actor, director. And that's what we do on this podcast. If you're just joining us on Hulu, maybe for the first time, welcome to the family. We usually go through the episodes, you know, we talk about the themes, but sometimes we interview people from the show, whether it's actors, guests, stars, writers, creators, the creator of the show, Dan Fogelman, because a lot of our back catalog also available on Hulu. Go check them all out.

But today is Jen Morrison. It's an incredible interview. Welcome to That Was Us, a headgum podcast, now available exclusively, one day early on Mondays on Hulu. So we have another very, very special episode this go round. I'm excited that we're kind of, you know, peppering in our rewatch with a lot of our favorite cast members and crew members. And this lady is no exception. We've been trying to get her on the podcast for many moons now. A long time.

But she is very busy and she finally had like a hole in her schedule. Jennifer Morrison is joining us today. She plays Cassidy on our show. That's right. For the last two seasons, right? Part of the last three seasons, four, five, and six. I love quadrangle that is Cassidy, Zoe, Kevin, and Sophie. And Nikki.

And Nikki, throw him in there. There's just all sorts of things. Will they, won't they? How's it all gonna play out? And she comes in. You get a chance to see this from the conversation. She's just a dope human being, you know, who's been doing this thing.

for a long time has a lot of expertise and knowledge and passion and just a joie de vivre that is infectious. Yeah. And you get to hear the word inculcated. Inculcated, yeah. Inculcated from our friend's SKV over here. I love a new word. It's rare you hear a new word that you've never heard before.

Yeah, I haven't heard it either. You know what we'll have to do? We'll have to play scrabble sometimes. Okay. I don't think I want to. Stanford. Although I'd like to learn. His eyes just went like shark eyes when he said scrabble.

He says, you know what we should do? We should play Scrabble sometime. You have the voice change. Or not. It's fun. We'll learn new words. It's fun. We'll learn.

We'll learn new words. We'll learn. Well, so listen, I play on New York Times. They have this thing called crossplay, which is basically like Scrabble for people who have the Times app. And I get blasted all the time. Do you play with friends or the computer? Or random people.

But it's against one person? No. You can, like anybody else who has the app, they can say like, hey, find somebody who's in my same skill category. And then we have wonderful games. Like the old words with friends. Like the old words with friends. Same sort of.

But with strangers. Yeah. Words with strangers. Yeah. We'll put it to the side from now. And then we'll have Jennifer come in and you guys see a wonderful conversation. Am I right that you're a voice in Frozen too? Yes.

Yeah. I was like, I've seen it 14. thousand times and I was like that's Sterling. Yeah, that's Lieutenant Matisse for that ass. For that ass. For that ass. Is that one of the lines? Yeah, yeah. That's one of the lines from it. It's very Disney

at first. Let it know. For that ass. Oh, God. Oh, God. I've spent a last time watching Disney movies and Paw Patrol. This is our life. Chase is on the case, baby. Yeah, a rubble on the double.

No doubt. I just love me some Patrol. That was the jam. There are certain shows that I actually miss. I'm going to tell you the biggest one. Yeah. And I don't even know if you guys, you guys may have missed this one because of like the age of kids. Disney Jr. had my jam. It was called Little Lionstines. Oh, I love Little Weinstein.

It's great. It was going on a trip and our favorite rocket ship zooming through the sky. Luttleinstein's did-lid-lid-dli-doo. Climb aboard. Get ready to experience. There's so much to find Little Einstein. It's great. It's very good. It's got a lot of classical music. It's a lot of music.

Love. There's a conductor. There's like an instrument guru guy. There's a girl who always comes up with dances to everything. And they feature like a classical song like of every week or whatnot. And it's, oh. We got to get it back in the rotation. It was in the rotation for a long time.

It's worth it's worth introducing to your kids. You guys in particular would love Little Einstein's. Last night, I came back around to an episode of Bluey called Sleepy Time. Oh, my God. Sleepy Time is the... Deserves a Pulitzer Prize. I'm not... I'm not a peabody it deserves. Sterling, like, I...

You have to watch the seven-minute episode. It's an episode of a cartoon that deserves an Academy Award. I'll watch it during lunch. Oh, we like occasionally get little bits of Bluey, but she just, she's not quite, like, she isn't keyed into it. Like, she likes the characters two and a half. She likes the characters, but she hasn't, like, keyed in where, like, that's the thing she wants. She wants Paw Patrol and she wants Everest from Paul Patrol.

Okay, I got you. Everest is not in every episode. Not in every episode. You know what episode Everest is in? Season 5 episode 21. That's what you got to know as a pair. You have that one episode on Laserdisc. We have it on Blue Ray.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, my nephew, fell in love with this episode of Barney. That, like, any time we tried to change it to something else, like he would freak out and would just watch the same one over and over again. Kids, man. They're just trying to work something out. They're trying to work some shit out. All right, we're leaving all of this in.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to that was us. We have a very special episode. Would you like to introduce our guest? I will introduce our guests because you guys put me on the spot many moons ago and made me cold call our guests on speakerphone. And she answered. And she answered because she is an angel on this earth. and was like, hi, like, just thought we were going to chat because we're dear friends and we love

each other. But meanwhile, you guys were like, we have a question you should call Jen, and you picked up the phone, and we've been trying to get you on this podcast forever because you're the best, and we have so much to talk to you about, but it's Jen Morrison. My guys, so happy to be here. She got the monochrome memo. I did, yes. Blue, black, green.

If you're not watching this podcast and you're just listening, this is an error on your part. Yeah. You're missing out. We do have a color balance situation going on. We're Kitty Corner in our blues. She's in a green chair. You're in green. She's anchoring us in black.

Yeah, we're not Webby nominated for nothing. You had to throw that in. Yeah. By the time this air is voting will be. We've already won. By the time this airs. We're going to leave that in and see what happens. Sure.

That's not going to eat. We're coming for you, Amy Poehler. Hear me now. There you go. Sister, how are you? I'm good. It's so very good to see you. It's really good to see you guys.

For those who don't know, this woman doesn't just work in front of the camera. She works behind the camera with great regularity. Just got finished shooting a pilot for NBC in New York City featuring my boy John Beavers, who plays Uncle Billy, right? Billy Pace on Paradise. I had a great time there. Rest in peace. How did the shoot, girl? John Bieber is still alive.

John Bieber is alive. This is about an announcement. We're talking about Uncle Billy Pace on. on the show. Spoiler. There you. Hang on. Just to be clear.

Yes, thank you very much. John Beavers is a live remote. It looked great. It was really great. It was a really, it was a fast and crazy shoot. It was 100 scenes in 12 days. Yeah. But incredible cast, Emily Deschannel and John Beaver's

and a newer actress that we found named An Lee Bogan, who I love and I think is amazing. And yeah, it went really well. It was one of those nice situations where there were a lot of familiar faces for me because I've worked, I've directed a lot in New York, so a lot of the department heads were department heads I'd worked with before, which was really great. I had a great relationship with the cinematographer, which is always a huge win.

We just had our cinematographer a week or so ago. Yasu Tanita come in and talk to us about the art of cinematography. And then we'll get into the dance between the director and the cinematographer there. In terms of directing pilots, how many have you done? This is my fourth pilot. Man, you're bad ass. Nice work if you can get it. Yeah.

Do you derive, I'm sure we'll come through, and we'll go back to genesis of things, but in terms of the satisfaction one feels in front of the camera and behind the camera, can you compare and contrast how they sort of like... Fill your cup. Sate you. Yeah. Yeah. Totally differently.

It's similar but different. You know, I think as an actor, it's very satisfying for me to plug into the puzzle and to feel like I'm really figuring out how to solve that piece, you know, and just to like really be hyper focused on that one thing and do that. And as a director, though, it's different because it's not just that you have to look at the whole picture. It's, I sort of see it like it's my job to take care of everyone. You know, I've been on a lot of not, this is us was one of the most pleasant, loving,

unbelievable sets I'd ever been on, truly. And, I mean, there's just hands down, couldn't be more loving. But I, before that had been on a lot of sets that were not like that, you know, that we're necessarily terrible, but had complications where when you're special. spending 18, 19, 20 hours a day somewhere, you know, you're like, man, we get to do the coolest thing in the world. We should be able to really enjoy doing the coolest thing in the world. And you don't always have the infrastructure to support that, you know? And so when I'm in the director's seat, I feel like I have a lot more to contribute to that side of things, you know,

in terms of the decisions that get made, you know, if I'm directing the pilot, being able to be a part of choosing the department heads, being a part of choosing the cast, being a part of vetting, that process and trying to have an environment that feels like this is us when you go to work, you know. Comparing contrast, directing a pilot versus being a hired gun on a show. Yeah. So doing an episode of television feels a little bit more like being an actor, actually. Sure. Because your job is to assess what the show is visually, technically, tonally, energetically, and figure out how to do the very best version of that. Copy that.

And not fight it. In your voice. Well, not in your voice. Yeah. In their voice. Sure. But like whatever you're bringing to the table. Yeah, you want to do your best work in that world, right?

And so it's almost like, I guess it's more like looking at it like music. It's like you have to know if you're playing jazz, you're playing jazz. You have to know if you're playing classical music. You're playing classical music. Or if you're singing a pop song or singing a pop song. Yeah. You can't go to like the ballet and sing a pop song. Totally.

You know what I mean? Like it's so it's just. Doesn't work. Yeah, you have to, unless that's the tone, which is a whole other story. Sure. Yeah. So it's really about kind of figuring out how to execute this thing that already exists very, very well. Yeah. Whereas when you're setting up a pilot, you're putting all of that in motion. So I think the trickiest part of a pilot is trying to get inside the showrunner's heads and trying to guess exactly the tone that they had in their being when they were writing it.

Right. And that's hard because you can't fully get inside of someone's. You know, you can ask a million questions and you can assess based on the decisions that they're making and the information that they're giving you. But it's always a lot of trial and error of like, what is the energy? What is the vibe? You know, even the show that we were just shooting, it's like very serious things are going on, but we also want the audience to know we're taking care of them.

So finding that balance of music that's going to support the audience and music that's going to say, like, hey, we're going to figure this out in the end. You don't have to... Don't be too scared. Right, exactly. But then there's some show that. where you want to lean all the way into the horror, the terror. So it's just, it's sort of trying to navigate,

extracting information from a writer's mind and trying to turn that into a visual plan. Let me ask this, I'm going to let other people ask questions. But I find it really interesting in terms of just being a sort of male-dominated space in terms of directors or just film crews, et cetera. As a woman, is there anything that you feel like, like, do you feel like you get questioned more or otherwise? Do you feel like there's certain things you have to do to make sure people respect your authorit high?

You know what I'm saying? As Cartman would say, I'm just curious. I mean, I'll never. That's the great Cartman would say. Yes, to quote Cartman. I will never fully know because I've never not been a woman. Sure. So I don't know any different than being in my shoes.

Yeah. Right? What I do feel Maybe more than from a gender thing is like the actor transitioning to being a director thing I did feel like I kind of had to prove, reprove, reprove, reprove, reprove. I felt like I had to prove myself 10 times for someone else's one time. When did you make that transition first? I directed my first short film in 2016.

And then I did a bunch of music videos and I did this little pilot for Refinery 29, and then I put my feature together. So then I directed that in 2017 and sold that to Netflix in 2018. So all outside of never one of the shows that you were a long-time cast member on. No.

Okay. Yeah, I was, it's not like it's an awesome thing to get that opportunity, obviously, just to be in that seat, to be in the editor's bay, to, you know, to like understand every single step of the way. I was very aware that if I really wanted to establish myself as a filmmaker who could make features. You had to do it outside of that.

That's a tricky route. It's a tricky path. Yeah. Because there is an unspoken thing of like, oh, well, she was just gifted that because, you know, she was there for a long time. And we're just trying to sort of like throw her a bone kind of thing. So did you have those opportunities and you said, no, thank you? I wouldn't say it wasn't like. Or that you just didn't pursue them.

I didn't pursue it. You know, it wasn't like. I was offered those episodes and said, no, I just didn't ever go and ask for those episodes. I did use set as my film school. I mean, poor Yasu. I just followed him around asking him questions all the time. But I will never stop doing that as an actor. Now I'm always picking the DP's brains because every DP has a different approach and different tricks and different little things that they do.

Because before this is us, you spent many years on a show called Once Upon a Time and many years on a show called House. Both very successful. We'll be right back with more. That was us. You know, nothing in a cart is ever ordinary, gang, because no one's life is. Shoppers at ship don't just care about the order. They care about who ordered it. They're shopping for the moments we're about to create and the memories we're trying to keep alive. They know it's bigger than just an ingredient or item on a shopping list.

They shop same day in the same way you would. Come on. Listen. Give it to me. You guys, we had a very specific, uh, uh, recipe that Rachel was trying to put together, a family recipe that has way too many ingredients, very specific kind of potato, these type of things. So we put the order on, we got out our phones, real quick, got our phone, boom, shipped right there. Made an order. The shopper with shipped

communicated with us through the whole process. There were a bunch of kind of weird things that we needed. They got us every single one of those things. I love it. With shipped, it's never just a delivery order. It's shopped same day in the same way that you would. Use code podcast to get a year of shipped for only $49. That's half off the regular $99 price at shipped.com slash offer. That's shipt.com slash offer. Terms apply. You know, nothing in a cart is ever ordinary, gang, because no one's life is.

Shoppers at ship don't just care about the order. They care about who ordered it. The shopping for the moments we're about to create and the memories we're trying to keep alive. They know it's bigger than just an ingredient or item on a shopping list. They shop same day in the same way you would. Come on. Listen.

Give it to me. You guys, we had a very specific recipe that Rachel was trying to put together, a family recipe that has way too many ingredients, very specific kind of potato, these type of things. So we put the order on, we got out our phones real quick. Got our phone? Boom. Shipped right there. Made an order.

The shopper with shipped communicated with us through the local. whole process. There were a bunch of kind of weird things that we needed. They got us every single one of those things. I love it. With shipped, it's never just a delivery order. It's shopped same day in the same way that you would. Use code podcast to get a year of shipped for only $49. That's half off the regular $99 price at shipped.com slash offer. That's shtipt.com slash offer terms apply. Summer is coming. It is almost upon us. The kids are going to be out of school. My husband tours professionally for a living.

Yes, he does. So we are going to be following him on the road this summer. Oh, wow. He doesn't have like a full-blown tour, but he'll have tour dates here and there. And it is always, always easiest for us and preferred to stay in an Airbnb. Absolutely.

We need a kitchen. We need laundry. We need space. We need separate bedrooms. And all of that is only something that Airbnb can accommodate. Absolutely. I've been using Airbnb for years.

Yes, same. And I use it not only for family travel, but for work travel. And when I go back and forth to the same city over and over again for a project, what I'll do is I'll pick a different Airbnb every time and explore different neighborhoods of that city. I love that. What a great idea, man. Here's the thing to think about as well. While you guys are gone on these fantastic trips staying in Airbnb's, your house is just sitting there by itself.

It's a perfect opportunity to enlist the help of a co-coast. Yeah, because it can sound like a lot to put your house up to be. listed, but maybe you need a little help. Yes. And Airbnb has a co-host network that make it easy with all kinds of support. They can help you with booking guests, with communicating with guests,

anything that you need to make it go supposed to. Absolutely. Earn a little extra cash that helps you enjoy your time away and give somebody else an experience that they're looking forward to as well by sharing your home. And you can find out more, or you could find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host.

I did learn. I learned a ton, you know. And also, it was all of that paid off doing a network pilot now, because this is my first network pilot. I've done streaming up until this point. And it's different. It's a little different, you know. And I... Network versus streaming? Yeah. And I lived inside of network television for so long that it's so familiar to me that I was like, oh, no, I understand what this pace is. I understand what this energy is. I understand what we need to offer the audience every week, you know? And that's interesting. You're like going back to your roots in a way. Totally. Yeah. Totally.

I mean, there were a lot of similarities tonally in this piece to House. It has nothing to do with medicine, but tonally had a lot of similarities. House, do 22 or 24? How many do you do? The first season was wonky, so I don't remember. It was like, first we were picked up for 13, and they ordered the back nine at like the last minute. So I think the first season was 22. But then we did several seasons where there were 24.

and then kind of went back to 22 at some point. But, yeah, it was... Is that just, like, working year-round? Essentially, like, having, like, a month off? We've done, like, 18 episodes at our max are like, what's that like? 22 or 24? Well, House was just...

House was of a different time. I mean, it was... That was when it was, like, if you're not being abused in your hours on set, you aren't an actor. You know what I mean? Like, you aren't on a show. It was like we were rejoicing on an 18-hour day.

Rejoicing. And I'm not exaggerating. Like the very, are you ready for this? The very, very last day of the last episode of the season finale of House in season eight, I worked 21 hours. No. On two scenes. Maybe. I had to move two flights.

I kept having, I had a flight the next day to New York that I couldn't make. Incredible. So let's make it clear for folks what that means, all right? They are long days, but typically it's a 12-hour day, right? And then beyond- More or less. A little, well, so with hair and makeup, it's like 14 hours, right? If it goes beyond that, then there's like, you know, time and a half and it goes like a certain, how many hours past that, there's double time for the crew, right?

Yeah. But you, to maintain morale, one optimally, would love. to finish within that 12 to 14 hours. You know what I'm saying? And you're talking about an additional seven hours above a whole other workday. Like there's things also too like on Friday nights sometimes. You have to do night shoots. A Friday day.

You call it a Friday day. You know what I'm saying? And you're just like working until basically the sun comes up. They're cheap. You know, we would be driving home on Saturday at 4 p.m. Jeez. What? I don't think that's legal.

I don't think that used to be. Does your step up come through? I have no idea. I have no idea. People just slowly, like, nodding off at the wheel. Yeah, it's so dangerous. We had, yeah, we went through, I think, almost three whole different crews in the first season

because of these hours, yeah. It was a different time where it was just like you do whatever it takes. We were always in a glass box. Every set was four walls of glass. It was reflections in every direction. There were five or six people in every scene. There was so much coverage to get dealing with all those. reflections, you know, all the medical stuff.

You know, so it was, they were just, you know, there was stuff. But, yeah, because I think, I listen, it's all very foggy because I was clearly, I have very few memories from this time. Like, I watch episodes of House like, I wasn't there. I'm like, ha! Amazing. That's great. Jeez.

I'm sure there's PTSD. That's a lot. But I'm very proud of it. Absolutely. And also, like, I learned so much and there was something about the boot camp of it all. I did all that at the right age, right? I was a kid. So I started that show when I was 24 years old.

So playing a 32-year-old immunologist, I almost didn't go to the audition because I was like, who's hiring me for this? I also love that a lot of women wouldn't go in for playing older. You're like, I don't care. I don't care. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know. Whatever. But, you know, it was just a different time.

Now there's rules and laws and, you know, union rules where that just can't happen. There's no world where that could ever happen. All I remember is it was like every six hours, well, after the next six hours after lunch, they had to give you like a standing meal. But then every maybe three hours after that, they'd have to give you another standing meal. So it would always be like these weird, like buffet style. They brought in like pop-eyes or something. Yeah.

And then like chivalet. And three hours later, there'd be like pizza or there would be Thai food or there would be. Oh, my gosh. Just heartburn. Yeah. Totally. It's always bad. This is us is an eight-day shoot schedule.

So like, you know, Monday through Friday, then plus another three days, right? Every once in where we have to go over a little bit. Are you doing eight days for House? House was eight. Yeah, usually was like eight plus a ninth overlap day. Plus a ninth overlap day. So 24 episodes or whatnot. We shot about seven months to do 16 episodes.

18. To do 18 episodes, excuse me. So you're talking about. Like 10 months, yeah. How long was once? Yeah, yeah, no, we were doing 24 episodes right out of the gate. Once upon the time, how long was that one? Yeah, like 24 right out of it.

So I went... 24. Yeah, I mean, I really collectively spent 15 years on network television. In a trailer, yeah. In a trailer. In people's homes. Yeah, which was amazing. Here's the thing I didn't anticipate.

Weird little things they didn't anticipate. How often I was going to. to spend time in a porta potty. How often I was going to eat a meal off of plastic forks in a weird container. Delicious meals, though. The things you don't think about when you're like, I want to be an actor. Yeah. Yeah.

No, and I'm not, like, none of it is like complainworthy. It's more just kind of like, huh. Things you didn't consider. Yeah. They don't talk about this in school. Yeah. Because you come from the theater, right? Yes, I do.

Yeah, you grew up outside Chicago. Yes. in a suburb that I have also spent some time in Arlington Heights, right? And then you went to school at Loyola. Yes. For theater and English. Double major. Double major.

With your research. Yep. Yeah. And after you graduated, you stuck around Chicago for a while, right? No. I didn't actually. No. I left.

Yeah. I graduated a little early. Because you were too smart? Basically. I was just lucky to go to an amazing high school, to be honest. Where your parents were teachers. One of my parents were teachers. While you were there?

While I was there. Your university was like, you have to leave. I'm sorry. They're like, get out. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? To have your parents there? No, it was, well, it was good because my dad was one of the best teachers I've ever had. He's a really special, very special teacher.

Yeah. Complicated because you never escape sort of the gaze of your parents. Like I felt like until I went to college, I didn't really have a sense to figure out my own sense of self, just because you're, I don't even know if I realized it or not, but I just never was kind of on my own to figure things out. There was always someone there, you know.

Because my mom worked with my dad, because they ran a nationally competitive high school marching band, which that's for a whole other podcast. So they were there a lot and all the time. And, you know, it wasn't like they taught one class. It was like there was, you know, 200 kids in the band. Yeah. Were you in the band?

Of course I was in the band. Wait, wait, wait. I come from a marching band. Do we guess instrument? Marching band family? Are you percussionist or are you on the horns? I mean, I played an instrument. Which one are you guessing?

I'm going to say. God, I should know this. I'm going to say, I should play an instrument. I'm going to go with trumpet. That's a lot of trumpet in our family. No, clarinet. Clarenet. I wasn't going to say.

All right. All right. I love it. I love it. 200-person marching band. Did you guys do, like, my marching band experience also is like a cold. cultural thing? Like,

are there, is there aography that goes along? Yes, but it is. Did you stomp the yard? This is when I'm asking. It's not that. It's a different.

It's not drumline. It's not drumline. I love drumline. It's just, there's like different variations that are like this. Yes, this was very. Yes, Sterling.

That's exactly it. With a little roll step, little roll step with your feet. It's hard to, it's like an unbelievably massive sport. It's like millions and millions of kids participate. But there's an organization called Bands of America that has this whole organized competitive

system of regional competitions and you have to place at a certain place in the regional to be eligible for a national and then you go to nationals and there's prelims and there's finals. I mean, we went to finals at nationals when I was a sophomore, I think. And I think there were like 20,000 people in the stands. Like it's an unbelievably huge sport. You know, it's like, but it's very... If there's 200 kids, that's 400 parents. Yeah, but by the way, that's a small...

We were small. The big bands in Texas are 400 kids. Really? Yeah. And my brother went on to be the conductor of the Reagan high school band for many years, and he had 400 kids in his band. He's the guy who has to stand up on the crane. Well, yes, exactly.

That was my dad, and that was my brother. Yeah. And then he ended up kind of retiring from teaching early because he now designs marching band shows for all the top band. in the country. What? Yeah, the drill. It's called the drill,

which is the design of what's happening on the field all the way through. And then also the overall concept. I mean, it's not dissimilar to directing because you have to have like a thematic concept and then you arrange the music. He works with like people who work with Cirque de Soleil

and all this. He's brought in all these like really like, you know, avant-garde elements into these programs. So sometimes. Yes. Sometimes. Just stuff shooting out of tubas.

Yeah. It is a wild sport. And it's like all the parents, you know, there's the band parents too. And there's all these rules and regulations and you can lose tens of points if you step over the line at the wrong time. And you can't come on the field until you're invited. And, you know, there's all these things. And so you like line up and you're ready to go. And they'll say like, prospect high school, you might now take the field and competition.

And that's when you're like, that's your time starts. And you have 15 minutes all in to set the field, do the show, get off the field. And the last person's foot has to cross that line before those 15 minutes or you'll get more of a. deduction. So then you have parents waiting with like the timpani and the xylophones and the this and now the if there's pyrotechnics or there's props or there's and you've got parents ready to run out there and place all that and you've got the flag, the girls who are the color guard placing all their flags and meanwhile you're like the band is carefully quietly, you know, marching on to their first chart. It's called a chart in the drill. And you know, take the, you know, you take your first

position and often they will face the back of the field and do play like a warm up because you want to feel a sense of the acoustics in the space. Because sometimes there's huge echoes. Yeah, yeah. And often, you cannot play to what you hear. You have to play to what you're seeing with the conductor. So, like, if you're on the 10-yard line and the conductor's on the 50, and you're getting the reverb in the 10-yard line, you have to just trust your eyes.

And not your ears. Exactly. So for four years, you did this. For my whole life until eight. I basically did this until I was 18 years old because I was in a marching band family, you know? Right. Okay. Okay.

But I mean in college. Yes, I competed for four years. Got it, got it, got it. Incredible. There's a culture of discipline that you've been inculcated with. Yes, that is exactly the right way to say that. Inculcated, word of the day. You never heard it before? I loved it.

I loved it. I'm taking it. Thank you very much. But it's okay. Let's go to, we talked a bit about directing whatnot, but it did start off, theater, English or whatnot. What made you fall in love with performance, if you will, storytelling in whatever. shape form of that. I think, I think, because it was so young that I am not sure, but I think it was

that we, because my dad was the high school music teacher, he conducted the pit orchestras for the high school musicals. And it was always a very big deal that we would go and watch the high school musical, you know? And so I just, I remember we'd wear like our best little patent leather shoes, my sister and I, and we'd wear our nicest little dress and we'd get to put little candies in our purses. And we would go and we would watch the high school musical. And, and I'd just go. And we would watch the High school musical, and I just thought it was the most spectacular thing in the whole world. Oh, yeah. And I think that's kind of where it got in me, you know?

Like, I think that's where it started. Because my mom said I came home from kindergarten and said, well, I'm an actor. Why am I not in a play? Early. Yeah. And my mom was like, okay? And then to her credit, they figured out how to make it so I could audition for the second graders play, and I got a role.

It was like the children's version of The Hobbit. played Feely. And an orange t-shirt with a little piece of rope around the middle. That was my, and I remember my mom would wait in the wings. She'd be like, you're really tired in this scene. And I'd go out and be like, and then that's my marriage. And she's like, you're really excited in this scene. I got.

I'm like, you know. So, yeah, that was my first play when I was five. When you got to high school and did musicals, was your dad still the pit? Oh, yeah. What musicals did you do in high school? We did The King and I. We did, my Fair Lady was my senior year, and I played Eliza do a little one, which is my dream. I'm trying to think of, I have Hava and Fiddler on the roof.

Wow. Tradition. All the big. All the bigs. We did Godspell, Cabaret, Fiddler, West Side. Oh, wow. Those are good. Those are really good.

I was riff, wound the tomb, sperm the worm. That was good times. It's really good. So, yeah, you get it. Spirrne the worm. Did you know, since you. you were so young and kind of got the performing bug, when did you know that directing was something that might enter the picture as well?

I started, this is one of those things that hindsight is 2020, where I wouldn't have said it this way at the time, but looking back, I basically had sort of two paths that were burgeoning at the same time because I was directing a lot in high school. There was like a community theater that I was directing at. They had a mentorship program where you could be like mentored by a theater director, and you could, of course, you know, I just decided to direct the Who's Tommy when I was.

No big deal. 18. Yeah. I love that. I can dance and I can act and I can sing. So why not? You know, like a crazy person. Only at 18 are you dumb enough to think you can do these things?

But so I was already like, I did that. And then when I went to college, I directed a handful of things in the Black Box Theater in college. And I did a bunch of like, you know, directing courses. And then I got here. These things were always concurrent. Yeah. Yeah. So when I, even when I got.

out here, there was a little theater called the Black Dahlia that, Pico. Yeah, on Pico. Matt Shackman? Matt Shackman. Exactly. I was just going to say, you probably know Matt Shackman. Of course. So Matt had just, you know, come out of Yale and he had this theater company. And a friend of, I don't remember, like a friend of his was in the play and they were looking for someone to be in the play. And then I was in this play. I think I did sexual perversity in

Chicago for them. And then he realized I had directed a bunch of theater. And he's like, well, why don't you direct for me? So then I directed a couple of productions for him there. and then I booked house. And then I was on set for 21 hours a day. So it was like there was this thing happening, at least with theater. Sure. And then in my mind, I remember at the time being like, oh, no, I might not have time to go to film school. Like in my mind, I was always going to go to film school once I was out here, you know.

What brought you out here? Just that play? Just acting in general. I mean, I kind of knew that in my mind I already had. That was the next step. Because I had done a few films already from Chicago because I did my first film. when I was 13 called Intersection. Yeah.

With Richard, Sharon Stone and Olivia Dividovich. And I got that from my team. That's your first film with Stone and Gear? Yeah. Isn't that crazy? That's so crazy. With Mark Rydell directing and Bill Mo Zigman

as the cinematographer. You kidding me? Yeah. It's the first one. Isn't that wild? I was, I had no idea what I was doing. I remember leaving that sentence being like, I need to figure out how to do this.

So I feel very clueless. But that's the audacity of all of this. It's like directing. Who saw me? Like, it's all audacity. Like the idea that any of us, like, show up and like, I've got this. Yeah. No, it's nuts.

It's all bravado in some ways. I remember the first time somebody said back to one and I was like, all right. Yep. And I just watched whatever. I was like, oh, they want to go to the beginning? Yeah, yeah. Just say that. Do there again?

Yeah. There's so many things that no one teaches, though. Like, I wish there was more out there. Like, again, this is what I feel like I can contribute as a director is like. Like when I'm working with actors and actually communicating things to them and just saying like, hey, this is what's going on or this is why. Because I watch people melt down thinking that we're going again because they did something wrong and they have no idea that it's like a technical thing. Or we just want to go again because I know every time you do a complicated, you guys know this from directing, a semi-complicated move with a camera. It's fine the first time.

It's pretty good. The second time. It's great. The third time and the fourth time is exactly what you wanted it to be. So if you don't tell the actor that, they get to the fourth take and they're like, what am I doing? Yeah, right, right, right, right. And you're like, no, no, no. It's, this is not, you know, so just communicating that to people or telling people to young, you know, I did a pilot where I, there was like 17 kids who had never been in a show before and had to basically be their first acting coach.

And just saying, like, you got to be able to memorize with tons of distraction because so many things that are distracting are going to happen. And no one teaches you that. You know, it's like, everyone's like, well, I'm great when I'm alone in my room in silence. And it's like, someone's going to be picking at you, putting makeup on your face, talking to you, a boom's been in your face, an airplane's going to go overhead. The camera's going to sound noisy. There's going to be wind, rain, weather, it might be cold, and you're pretending it's hot. You know, it's like, so many elements that you have to consider. Yeah.

So, like, learn your lines with the music blasting and the television on and someone trying to call you, you know, like, to learn with distraction. It's great advice. Yeah. That's such great advice. So it's just, that's the. stuff that I get excited to offer because I just feel like the trial and error of all the things I had to learn on the fly through all these crazy adventures and just being like, how can I help you skip all this? How can I just get you to the end and make it better for you? Yeah, well, because you've gone through it too. So like when anytime somebody's gone through it, you have something like you understand what they're experiencing. Yassu was talking and he was talking about Ken Olin and the way that he talked to the actors and how he just sort of had an understanding of it. I think Yasu coming from behind that camera, Like, that was one of the things that he had to sort of learn how to do. You know what I'm saying?

It's talking to the actors, which is a lot of the directing process. Let me transition to This Is Us in a more specific way. How did it come to you? What did you know about the show before you were introduced to this crazy group of people? And what was the experience like? I mean, it was pretty traditional, actually. I knew that there was a character coming up that I could be right for. I got a call from my agents who were like, they're very interested, but Dan makes everybody read.

And I was like, yeah, of course. You know, like, I think nowadays everybody reads for everything. But back then, there was a little bit more of like, oh, you've been on shows forever, maybe it's an offer and all that stuff. But I also was looking at the character and thinking, I wouldn't assume I could do this based on my previous work. Sure. You know, like, it's one thing if it was like, we'd like you to play it. an immunologist doctor, I'd be like, well, you have a lot to take for that. 150 episodes to prove I can do that.

You know what I mean? There was really nothing in my, like, film history to prove I could do it. So wait, just so I'm clear, how many times did you've been asked to read at that point in time since having done, like, 300 episodes of television? That's a really good question. Maybe never. But you did it without, you just said, sure. Yeah, well, also, I mean, I admire Dan.

I mean, now I know him, but I didn't know him then. I admired him then. And I loved the show. I loved the show. And it was something that I felt like I was trying to rewatch a few episodes just knowing I was coming here and wanting to refresh just some of it. And I can't, I mean, I cry through all of it, partly just because it was such a great experience for me. but partly just because the energy of the show is just so human and vulnerable and emotional. And I felt like as I was watching the show, and way before I was even asked audition for the show,

my life got better from the show. I felt like I made better choices. I felt like I had empathy for certain circumstances or understandings of things in the relationships that I had because of the show. And so it was a very meaningful show to me. It was something that really moved me as a person. So it was a no-brainer. There was no conversation of will I or won't I read for it. It was like, yes, send the material and let me get working on it.

Oh, wow. And then it was very intimidating material because I had to learn a certain amount of Arabic. I don't remember. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what it was. Right. had to figure out how to find just a,

like a sturdier place in myself than what I was normally asked to do as an actor. Like, oftentimes we're asked, especially I think on television as women, to likeable. Yeah. Like, you need to be likable, so people want you in our living room.

I hear you. And there were really rough edges of this character where to do it right, I had to, unlearned that habit. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so that felt dangerous going into a room, trying that for the first time,

and also hoping that all these words came out of my mouth in the right way. Yeah. And also, you know, reading for someone who was really a hero to me. You know, it was just writing some stuff that I admired so much that it was, it's the last time I remember being, like, deeply nervous to do something. Dude, I want to acknowledge how wonderfully egoless that is to have done two TV shows, both of them over like six seasons, et cetera. Like, it's not regular for someone to be asked to read when you're at that place in your career.

You know that. Yeah, at that time. Yeah. You know that. And like, and then she just said, okay. Yeah. That speaks volumes about who Jen is. Massive.

Just as a human. It's like the work is what's important. And you're like, I like this, I think I can do this. Let me try. We actually just had Josh Einsen, our casting director in. And he raved about your audition. Just like how spectacular, how undeniable it was, like from the jump. It was just like, yeah, there is nobody else for this part.

Like just how dialed in you were that I was like, yeah. I mean, it's evident when we watched that first episode. like the fact that you were coming on to a show that sort of Artie was this well-oiled machine and Dan was flipping the structure in a way that like, you know, we had, I feel like we had challenged the audience. But sort of showed them over three seasons, like you're safe with us. So come on this journey. But to start the season premiere of a new season within a, entirely new deck of characters.

None of the original people from the show. And how everyone, like, leaving them for 42 minutes and 30 seconds wondering how these people figure into the story. Like, again, to be able to jump onto a show like that and be like, okay, I'm just going to trust the process and trust Dan and trust that the audience is like with us also says a lot about an actor too. You know what I mean? It's nice to hear.

I mean, honestly, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't know. Well, I know how to be on a set is like the bottom one. Sure. You feel, I say that as a director. You know what I mean? Like, because I feel that from someone from the instant I watch their tape. Like, can this person be on a set?

It doesn't mean that I can see 100 tapes of very talented people, but probably only three of them feel like they know how to be on a set. What does that mean how to be on a set in terms of what you mean by it? They know what back to one means. first and foremost. There's that. No, but it's like there's this unbelievably massive ecosystem that's moving and spinning so fast. Right.

And you have to be able to walk in and be right in its orbit without missing a step and without holding up the process. Gumbing up the gears. Yeah. I mean, I always say to people, when you step on a set, especially if you're a day player or you're a guest star, if no one talks to you, you've done a great job. because that means that you, like, no news is good news. It means you walked in, you did your job, you crushed the role. I mean, I as a director, try to go out of my way to go talk to all those people because I know they're all going, was it okay? Totally.

What am I doing? I'm flooding in space. I try really hard to track them down and make sure that, you know, we don't move on so fast. But there's just this massive, expensive machine that's spinning. And your talent is part of it. Right. But you have to be able to take your talent and then put it in this machine and make it all happen together. It's somebody who has that feeling of like plug and play.

Like I can take you, put you in this thing and you will function well without being overwhelmed by the circumstances. Right. Like, yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah. And so it's, I, because of that, it was like, it was exciting and it was exhilarating to step on set. But I also know how to be on a set. You know, like, I know how to not interrupt the ecosystem. I know how to figure out where my like.

Totally. My puzzle piece fits and go like, all right, I'm here. All right. Like, how do I help? How do I serve? But also execute at the highest level, Jen. Your performance is extraordinary. You are such a brilliant actor and it's like it's so evident from the second you're on screen.

It's so captivating. Like, I mean, we've all watched you again in house and once about a time. But it's like seeing you in a role like this, it is just like under, you're just like, who is this woman? How is she a part of the Pearson's? Like, who is she in the show? And like you said, I don't think she's unlikable, per se. But she does have a sturdiness.

She has to for her job, for survival. But also, like, we learn she's a mother. We learn that she has her own journeys with mental health and alcohol. There's so much wrapped up and you handle it so beautifully. It's not over the top. It's not melodramatic. it's like, but it also allows us a window into, obviously, this very, very specific situation that this woman is going through, but we're able to like, to fall in love with her in such a way that

we want to see her be okay. We want to see her on this journey with her son, hopefully reuniting with her husband. How is she factoring into Kevin's life and Nikki's life and all of this? And it's like you, you, like, you, the three of you guys become this like unlikely trio that we're all rooting for and we completely fall in love with and it's it's just so interesting you know like i mean i think that's a tough job though i mean i appreciate you know it's very kind to put it on me in anyway but no very good deflection it is the right like i okay how do i put this without it sounding wrong because i i really mean this in a way that's complimentary to both sides of what i'm saying but like i had just come off of six years of making magic and fairy tale

seem real. Do you know what I mean? And the craziness that comes with that. I mean, having to throw my hand out and go take that Frosty to a giant snowman and sell it. Do you know what I mean? And like sit in the hair and makeup trailer in the morning and try to figure out like how I was going to magic with my hands today. You know, like and like and just like a bent, like a crooked finger. And like justify it and feel it and mean it and believe it. And you know, and so I had come from that, which required so much mental gymnastics. No class for that either. No class for that.

If you're going to do magic, you've got to hire Shakespearean actors. You have to. And we all studied Shakespeare, almost all of us that came through that show, which I don't think they realized it, but it certainly wasn't an accident. And necessity. It sounds weird, but you have to be able to give yourself over to that. It's the same thing. Anyway, I'd come from those.

mental gymnastics where it was so much work for me to figure out how to make the day possibly real to myself. Sure. Because I have to believe it so that everybody else believes it. And then all of a sudden, I'm sitting with these scripts that were so rich and had been turned over so many times. And I couldn't even find a way to go against what was on the page because they had already turned over what it was and went against it and then wrote it that way. And you were like, oh my God, all I have to do is say what's on the page. Learn this. Yeah.

And like internalize it and say it. Yeah. It was, I felt like I was cheating. She's saying we were spoiled guys. We were. We were. We were. We were.

We were. We were. It was really, I mean, that is rare. Right? I mean, you're back in that world, so you get that rarity all over again. But like, and so are you? Oh, my gosh. Dan, I'm free.

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S-U-B-W, German-engineered for all. I remember meeting you at Dan's house, the night of the premiere. Yes. And I think that's maybe the first time a lot of us met you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I didn't work with anyone but can I. Right, right. We watched you on screen, and Dan was down in the front row on Twitter.

Like he was. Like he always was. Like through the episode. And he's like, people are losing. their minds, everybody. People are freaking out. People don't know what's happening. People are so pissed. Yeah, they're angry. Yeah. But then we knew. We stuck the landing. I mean, he stuck the landing, you stuck the landing, and we knew that we were going to be with Cassidy and these characters for a long time. Going in, how much of an expectation did you have about the length of your time on the show?

I only knew it was going to be for that season. I was pleasantly surprised that he found a way to drag me out to the end, you know, I was so happy there. It was such a great character and just a place I was so happy. But yeah, I knew at least for that season, but I didn't really know that it would go past that. So you had any interesting insight on either my man, Justin or Griffin, in terms of working with those two clowns. I love them. Which is why we originally called you, because there was a scene going on in a meeting. Oh, where we were laughing. Yeah. And we're like, there's something else. There's something else going on here. There was a real joke amongst them.

And you were like, I couldn't remember. For sure. But I also remember us kind of discussing this. Like, I remember us kind of being like, this doesn't work unless we're actually laughing. You know what I mean? Like we kind of were all a little bit intimidated by that fact. So we were aware of really trying to find that zone with each other, which is not that hard with Griffin around. I mean, it's true.

And Justin. Justin's very funny. He's very funny. Hysterical. But Griffin really, he brings the magic sauce. because he's just so unexpected. Like, I mean, every take is so alive because you've no idea

what's going to come out of his mouth, ever. Yeah. Like, I'd be like, I'd get a direction, you know, from whoever was directing. I'd be like, I mean, I'll try if it happens again. I have no idea. It's a gift.

It's a gift somebody who is like that sort of like unbothered by like what expectation should be. It's like, oh, God, I get a chance to be alive. You know what I'm saying? Because he's going to be just. But it makes everybody alive. Yes.

You know, I mean, it's like it gets you completely out of your preparation and just, you just have to listen and be and just go, you know? But yeah, no, we had so much fun. And we were always like the other three. You guys were, there was like the big three and then we were the other three. There's a few different configurations of threes throughout the course of the show, right? Like you, Sue and Miguel had like the little moment. Like you three, yeah, yeah.

We have threes. We have groups. Are there any particular episodes or experiences that stand out in your mind for one reason or another that you loved? Well, two stand out to me. One was just my very first episode, just dealing with, I mean, even just all of the military gear. And when we were shooting all that stuff, you know, in Afghanistan, it was, we were, I don't know, in Santa Clarita in a desert somewhere. and it was 110 degrees, and they kept having to change my clothes

because I was sweating through everything. So I was just, I mean, I'd never sweat so much that I was, like, ringing out my clothes, like actually ringing it out. But it was, it added to it. You know, like, when you look back, you're like, oh, that's what they would be going through. And I wasn't even carrying the real weapons.

I was carrying the lighter versions of the real weapons, and that was heavy, you know. I was noticing, I was rewatching the episode, and when I'm coming home in the, and I'm in my uniform, in the car, and I get out and I hug my kid, I can see bruises all the way down my arm. And I was like, oh, that's from. From the gun?

What I was carrying on the stuff and getting in a... I was like, those were actually bruises from the previous filming, you know? But so I remember all of that just feeling so different and so, again, like, alive in a new way than I'd ever experienced. And also, it's, I love feeling scared of things creatively and it's rare. Totally. And so everything about that whole sequence felt scary to me, and I had no idea how I was coming off. And it was exciting.

Hell yeah. It was very exciting. May I ask about that episode as well? Just like the moment of striking your son and that's sort of like dynamic between you, your husband, and him? And just like, what do you recall of that at all? Yeah. It was really, it's stuff like that's tough. That's the stuff where you really have to let go of yourself.

you know, because you can't, you can't put yourself in it, because if you feel like you would never do it, you won't. Yeah. And if I, if I let too much of myself judge that moment, then also wouldn't have been the right moment, you know? So there's like, I think, again, that's where the mental gymnastics comes in of like really trying to take yourself out of your body and put yourself somewhere else. Things we are asked to do, man. Yeah, absolutely. And again, I felt like I could really rest in the writing because when I thought about how upsetting, if I could keep my headspace, just repeating sort of my internal monologue, just repeating in my mind the people who died

because I couldn't keep my promises, the people who didn't get water because I didn't keep my promises, the people whose lives were being diminished to being $1,200. You know, like, if I could sort of keep myself there and forget that there was a child there, then I could just do something to make the frustration end that had nothing to do with a child being there. And then I could return to, oh, there's a child here. Yes. Great choice. That reads crystal clear.

Yeah. That's exactly what I have. Because, like, his reaction to you, I was like, man, she didn't do that on purpose. And like, oh, so good. That was really good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, and I, you know, I think that my husband in the moment, you know, the character

responded well because I think he, I felt like I saw that in his response. I felt like Nick, right? Yeah. that his response was like, I know you didn't mean it, but you still hurt him. Yeah, you can't. And like, that's the, that's the complexity of these things. You know, it's like, and it's also part of what I didn't realize

until playing this character and the sort of outpouring of people who reached out over it, it's like, it's so rare to see a female military person in a story. And certainly a female who's a veteran dealing with PTSD and having a child and being a mother. And like, it just, it just, I can't really point to another example of it. Yeah. You know, we see operatives, these, you know, we see zero dark 30 where the operative goes in or whatever, or Sicario or whatever. But it's like, this is a very different, you know, circumstance that just doesn't get explored that often. And the truth is, it doesn't matter if she meant to it or not, it happened.

True. And that truth is what's complicated to explore and figure out, you know. And I don't think she was probably someone who was too proud and too stubborn to go to a meeting unless something like that happened. Right. Thank you. I didn't mean to cut you off. But before you move to another episode, I just wanted to, that scene sticks out for me. Yeah.

Yeah. And then the other one was when we were at Kate's second wedding. Sorry. Sorry. Excuse me. Impossum, Robles. Yeah. But because...

I'm just glad it was in the last season. I know. I know. I know. Not too early. Yeah, yeah. No, just it would be... It was so much fun.

It was fun, but it was also, I just had this crazy reaction to her singing the song because I'm a fan, right? So, I mean, I'm on the show, but I love the show. I remember that. And the music is so, it just gets so in your bones and it's so, and it was like, I mean, I don't, I wasn't supposed to be emotional. Right. This is the only time I was truly not true to my character and I'm sure they cut around it

because I was sobbing. So I was so aware of the storyline of like, oh my gosh, is she going to be able to do it? Can she not? Like, I'm all worried about her mental state. And like if mom's going to be around to remember these things anymore and like the kids just being devastated. And so I'm so wrapped up in that as like an audience member.

And I'm sitting there. I'm supposed to be Cassidy, but I'm really kind of stuck in my head. And she starts singing this unbelievably gorgeous. just song live and I was just like, doing rehearsal. She did it during rehearsal and I was like, oh my God, what is happening here?

I know. Stupid. And I never stopped crying every time. Justin kept looking at me like, get it together. So upset. Steffin up soldier. I'm not sure Cassidy would be this upset.

And I was like, I'm really trying. Shh, shh, shh. I really, really trying. But it was also, I think, like, we were coming to the end of the show. It's such a bigger, I mean, the show itself was so special to me and meeting all of you guys and working with everyone and playing a character that's so dear to me and getting to place a character that's so beautifully written and work with Dan, all these things. But also that house that you met me in is now my house. Right. Isn't that crazy?

So I only thought Dan's house. I bought Dan's house. I did. I forgot. The other one really made it possible for us to do that. Like, he was incredibly generous in the way that that all went down. And it was that night we were standing in the living room, or sorry, in the kitchen, in that sort of space that I still struggle to know what to do with.

It's a little bit of an open space. The grand room? Yeah, yeah. Well, but it's like between the kitchen island and the family room area, there's, like, more space than should be there a little bit. I got to. Still working on that. Yeah.

But I was standing right there. And I went, and my husband looked at me and he said, what was that? I go, I feel memories here. Oh, Jen. I felt it. It was like this really overwhelming feeling. And I almost like could see memories in that house. And two years later, he and I were starting to think about starting a family.

And we knew that the house we were living in on a hill didn't make sense for kids. And we were going to, I was like, well, let's just start looking. you know, like let's, because it might take a while to figure out what we want to buy together. He had moved into my house. And he goes, you know, you should ask Dan if he ever sold that house. And I was like, he's never selling that house. He goes, oh, no, no, he told me that night that that was like an interim house that he had his eye on another house in the neighborhood. And I was like, really?

Huh. And I was like, is it weird to like email my boss and ask him if he sold his house? So I sent this email. I'm like, hey, so random. But did you guys ever sell your house? And he was like, oh, not random at all. literally moved out two days ago and we haven't, it's not on the market yet, but you can come see it if you want. And I was like, what are the chances of that timing? And Jerry remembering,

having happened to had that conversation with Dan that night, also remembering that I had that feeling of like having memories in that house. And, you know, Dan was like, well, come look at it. I was like, Dan, I'm looking at this on Redfin. And even if I sold everything I own, I can't, Yeah. I don't want to put you in that position. You know, you're like, I don't want to waste your time. He's like, just come look at the house. I was like, oh, my God.

He would never say that if he was, like, trying to make a killing on his house. And so we went, and, of course, we loved it as much or more than when we were there for that night. And he was like, I just want to break even. And he sold it to me for what he bought it for six years before. Wow. That is Dan to a team. Who does that, right? I mean, it was like, it was so crazy.

Oh, my God. I know. Fogerman, you old so-and-so. I know. You've old so-and-so. Betty's watching now. Out of here. Bet he's not.

Bet someone sends him this clip. Clip it. But anyway, my point is, it was, that moment felt big, right? Because we were coming to the end of something that meant so much to me, not just professionally and emotionally, but like I had my home because of this job. I had my child. in that home. I was starting a family there. We were, you know, it was just like such, it, it would, the show is so deeply a part of my soul from what I felt like I was learning from it,

watching it before I was on it, then being on it and feeling like it changed my life and just added so much beauty to my life. And, and then the friendships that have come out of that, you know, it's just like our friendship and, and knowing you guys and then getting close with Dan and Kate. And, you know, it's just like, it was like the couple. kept running over with that job. You know, it was just the gift that kept on giving. I also have had the good fortune, and I wish this for both of you,

but to work with Jen as a director. Because she is as incredible as she has as an actor. I would say like tenfold as a director. She is just... What did you do? Dr. Death. I did four episodes. Did you all all that to death? I did four.

The first four. She did the first four. So the pilot, essentially. And to be in her care is unlike anything I've ever experienced with a director. You are just, you are so perceptive. You do, like, hearing you talk about your experience as an actor and bringing that to said as a director, it's like, it's just like all these light bulbs bulbs went off in my head. I was like, oh, yeah. Like, you are so thoroughly prepared and organized and meticulous and kind. And like we would get our days. There was never stress.

Like you just knew that like it was a well oiled functioning machine being on set with Jen and that like everything was going to look amazing. Everything would have such a distinct point of view. Like I just like I it was the best experience I've ever had working with a director like period the end. I loved it. And I've like sung her praises to every. And I've like sung her praises to everybody. I'm like, have you worked a Jen as a drug? Like, I mean, and I know you obviously have gone on and done other incredible things. She actually just worked with Becca Brunstetter on her new show, five-star weekend with Jen Garner. I mean, so it's like speaking of the This Is Us like Uvra and World. But I hope that both of you get the good fortune of working with her in that

capacity. We almost did. We're close. With Dr. Death the first, first season. Yeah. And then that'll global pandemic fight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought that was so ironic, though, because it was like, I was supposed to be directing you and Dr. Death. And then the next episode I did of, this is us, you were directing. Yeah. So it was so funny that we flipped it.

Flip it. Yeah. Oh, dude. Yeah. So hearing you talk about your approach as a director, I'm like, oh, yeah, I've like, I've gotten to. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll read. I'll read.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will read. No. This was amazing. You're amazing. Oh, thank you. You're frigging rock star.

Yes. J.M. Thank you for joining us on our little podcast. That was us. Is there any way? I don't want to jump any questions. Were there any, like, fan questions that we didn't possibly get to? So that the fans can be sated with our presence.

I brought my little bracelet that the military advisor gave me, This is Us. Oh, James? Yeah, James. Reporta, yeah. It has the name. and information of the officer that he kind of used as inspiration for me for Cassidy. And so, anyway, I keep it in like a little, I have like a little box where it's on display at home, but I brought it today. You hold it up for your little camera.

To our camera right there? Wow. I dig it. Very cool. It's very sweet of him to. What a nice gift. Here's a fan question. They want to know, what do you have in common with Cassidy, if anything?

She's trickier for me because I think that she has demons that I don't have. But her moral compass while she was doing her job of really wanting to believe that what she promised she could follow through on, that's something that I really relate to. And again, it's kind of why I could make that moment work when my son ends up getting hurt. because I could put myself in that determination of just a disappointment that, you know, she's in an organization that says, you can promise these things and we will follow through. And then she promises it believing in it. And then that follow through doesn't come. And that's an awful feeling.

So I think that part of her I really related to and I also related to how damaging it would be if I had to be the person who couldn't make good on those promises. I got you. I think we asked most of these questions. I know the rest of them filming with Griffin and Justin. The difference between directing and acting. Mm-hmm. Why'd you want to become an actress?

What was it like coming from Once Upon a Time to this? We did it. We did it. We nailed it. We nailed it. We nailed it. This is why you're nominated for a webby. Best video podcast.

Currently in second place behind Amy Polar, Amy, we're coming for you. We've already come. We won. Sure. Yeah. That's right. It's weird. The vote is already in.

We want to. It's an honor just to be... This is awesome. You rock. We're going to finish the episode. Please, if you will, will you look into your camera. Will you tell them the name of the podcast? I'm Jennifer Morrison and this was us.

Wait a minute. For this is, this was us. Hold on. Go back to the reference. That was us. Keep it all in. It's all in. You keep it all in.

And take two. Back to one. Back to one. Back to one. Back to one. Back to one. And. That was us.

Yeah. Thank you for making the time in your ridiculously busy schedule. It was. It kind of works. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. That was us. That was a hate gum podcast.