That Was Us - Kate's Secret | "Honestly" with Writer Elan Mastai (504)

Episode Date: February 24, 2026

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 5, Episode 4: Honestly. This episode explores how patterns repeat across generations: from Kevin confronting childhood pressures and insecurities, to Randall stepping into mentorship and turning an uncomfortable moment into purpose, and Kate and Toby navigating the early steps of adoption. Plus, Mandy, Chris, and Sterling have fun in the studio chatting about sleep training, how their style has changed, and of course they also welcome 504 writer Elan Mastai to the podcast! Elan talks about how this show came into his life, what it was like moving from Canada to work on the show and how he dealt with that during Covid, and some of his most memorable and impactful moments writing for the show! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Find Unreal products anywhere cravings hit, including at Whole Foods, Target, Costco, and other grocery stores Visit https://UnrealSnacks.com/TWU to get $2 off a bag of Unreal. Terms and conditions apply. - Share a little extra love this February and wrap yourself, or someone you care about, in comfort that truly feels special. Head to https://cozyearth.com and use our code TWU for up to 20% off. And if you get a post-purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:32 Discussion 00:57:44 Interview 01:36:25 Outro Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of That Was Us, we're diving into Season 5, episode four, honestly. This episode explores how patterns repeat across generations. From Kevin confronting childhood pressures and insecurities to Randall stepping into mentorship and turning an uncomfortable moment into purpose. And Kate and Toby navigating the early steps of adoption. Can I ask you guys, did either of you guys sleep train your children? So if you want to get, I was going to wait until we got to like that part of the thing, but... Well, it kind of comes right up with Jack and Rebecca.

So, okay, Jack and Rebecca having a tough time getting sleep. Because evidently Kevin just won't, right, fall asleep. He has not learned how to self-soothe. Okay. Which will be the theme of his life. Yeah. He soothes with other things. Self-soothing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trying to figure out how to do that. Here's a, so you're asking the question. I have a, here's the anecdote. So Andrew. We believed in sort of like co- Who is your eldest? He's my eldest son, who is now 14 years old.

Now we went to, remember, we went to midwifery care. And like went to like all the birth classes, et cetera, through... You did the home birth? You did the home birth? Midwifery. It's not so bad. It really is. There's something that feels good about it rolling off the tongue.

Yeah. So they talk about co-bedding, co-sleeping, etc. Skin-on-Skin contact, like, you know, bonding with your child. You know, why would you put your child away? This is our thing, right? So we have a bassinet next to the bed. But so normally, so if Rye wants to feed or whatever, she can pull him out.

He's right there. Do a side latch. Bada bada bada boom. It's good to go, right? So then eventually we start to move him into his crib. And it's not a joyous transition. In his own room. In his own room.

Got it. In his own room. and he would cry or whatnot. And Ryan would be like he's crying. And I would be like, I know. I said, eventually, if he's going to sleep in the bed, like we kind of have to let him do it. And they talked us through, like, you know,

maybe you give him five minutes and then you go in there and let him know that everything's okay. And then eventually six minutes. And, you know, baby steps. Yeah, yeah. Is a baby, right? Anytime she heard him cry, she had an incredibly visceral reaction.

Sure. And I'm curious for you guys, you were just a mom just now? Like, did you just have Gus? No, not yet. Not yet in the show. So life, so art is preceding life in terms of this timeline, right? But you just had.

Yes. Bear. So I say like, right, we got to work on it. Like, we're not going to get any sleep at some point in time. Like, we got to try, right? Like, I think people, I think fathers are always sort of talking about this push towards independence. Yeah. Right?

And mothers are trying to take care of like, but, this is what's happening now. I need to tend to what's happening now. So I said, Ryan, I will sit in the room with him, but you have to go away. I can tell that this is hard for you. I will sit here with him and let him know that I'm there. So my man, Andrew Jason Sterling Brown, is in this crib.

I lay him down in the crib and dim the lights or whatnot. And he's like, what's going on? And by what's going on, I mean, my man is grabbing these things like he is incarcerated. looking through the screen, he was like, why won't you come get me? In baby language, which comes out,

right? And I was like, I'm right, daddy's right here, man. Right? And then Ryan keeps budging, barging into the room. I was like, Ryan, not helping.

I need you to go. Ryan leaves the house, goes outside, walks around to the window. And it's just staring through and it's just like, my baby, my baby,

I'm so sorry. Oh, my God. This would have been a great, scene in our actual show. If all the babies weren't on the second level of this house. Were you upstairs? We were upstairs. If you had appeared at the second level,

second story window, that would have been a whole new story, but that'd have been good. But it was, and the episode sort of like highlighted for me this idea that like, they need both of them. I think both of these episodes together, 503 and 504, is sort of like, you see Rebecca just being like, Look, man, like what's without being said, it's like, this child is a part of me. This child grew inside of me.

When it hurts, when he hurts, I hurt. I hurt. Yeah. Right? Versus like dad being like, I know. Yeah. But at a certain point, like, he has to be able to work through that hurt. Right.

And nobody's wrong. No. You know what I'm saying? Like both moms and dads, that balance. That balance is important. So for you guys, as you like, now that you're like, how did you do? You guys sleep trained? We did.

Yeah. I don't want to speak too far out of school, but we used the same sleep trainer that Dan and Kate used. Okay. And it was a wild experience because it was, it was pandemic. Yeah. It was bringing another person into the house. Oh, yeah. And this lady came, she's very talented.

Yeah. Was she like the British woman from ABC back in the day? Kind of. Okay. A little Mary Poppins-ish. You know, shut up with her bag and was like, I have everything under control, but she is not English. She's from Arizona. And so she drove from Arizona.

Oh, wow. Because she'd want to fly. And she goes, whatever, I come and I help, but it's a minimum of five days or whatever. So she's staying in our house. Oh, wow. We were done sleep training beer after the first night. and she was she just like stayed because you had that minimum of five nights and after the third night we're like I think you could go because she was just she would just and she was totally fine just in

the guest room never leaving the guest room having like door dashed food deliver and oh wow and then but what is it about the first night like he got it he just got it he just locked in like I got it oh you want me to sleep but but it was it was it was a lot of it was a lot of the first night like like he got it was it was a lot of A lot of pain, like, she was essentially, she was essentially the door blocker. Yeah. She was like, what she did teach us is the difference between between a baby that's trying to self-soothe by crying and a baby that is dysregulated. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And that is past the point of regulation. You need to go in. But then she showed us these techniques. And it was interesting because all we did was watch on the camera. Yeah. Which, thinking about like old school. being, even now I think about like not being able to like look at a monitor.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, same. Like parents. It's all I do all night. Yeah. Yeah, parents being like, what's going on in there? Yeah, I hope everything's okay. I don't hear anything. Like, are you joking me? How did they do it? How did they live? How did they sleep? I would never. And here we all are. I know. Totally. Totally. Totally. We survived. And so we, she helped us out and Think about that, though, when we were watching this back, I was like, oh, I had no point of reference for, like, how hard this really is. Yeah. Because they didn't have children yet. So it was just like this theory floating around of like, oh, yeah, I bet it's, I bet it's so hard when you're being crazy. You want to go in that. You know what I mean? And now I'm like, oh, shit. I know exactly what this is like. Yeah. We sleep trained Gus, same. It was like he got it, I think the first, he definitely got it like the first night. Maybe we made it up to like 10 minutes or something, but he eventually fell asleep.

And I know it is a very controversial thing. There are people who are pro-sleep training and again, sleep training. For our family, it was the greatest thing we could have done. Gus and Ozzy both are incredible sleepers, and I feel like it gave them the foundation for everything. They all have sleep regressions and whatnot, but like they have always been great at sleeping. as mom versus dad was there a different sort of like temperament Yes it's way harder

You have that invisible tether Yeah as a mom Right To your baby Right Who was inside your body And it is just like It's impossible to like

You know when they need something Before they even voice it Right so it's like So hearing them Have to learn how to sue themselves It's so hard And I totally respect and understand how for some parents and some mothers in particular, it's just a bridge too far. They just cannot take hearing their baby cry.

Because it is like it was a cup, it was an hour or an hour and a half of just like pure unadulterated. Like you feel this like electrical charge in your body of like this feels so unnatural. But I know I'm doing the right thing. I'm trusting that this is the right thing. And it ended up being wonderful. And then we didn't even have to sleep train Lou because she's a perfect angel baby. And she was like, I got this.

Oh, you need me to sleep? I think it's the same for If I had no recollection that we're ever having a problem. Well, girls are superior. Yeah. Yeah. Until they hit 12 and 13. Sure.

You pay your taxes early with boys. You pay your taxes later on with girls. God bless Lou. God bless Lou. But I can absolutely relate to Rebecca. Yeah, yeah, yeah. the connection between your kid and the ache and the pain of hearing your child need you and the compulsion to go and help them and stopping yourself.

Like I remember those like that initial first like five, you know, I think you wait like five minutes, right? You let them cry it out for five minutes before you go in and you spend a minute in there and you sue them and you let them know that you're there and they know how to sleep and you're in the next. room or whatever it is. But I remember those first five minutes and I'm like, like, uh, like weeping and Taylor and I like squeezing hands. Like it was

horrific and it only lasted for, you know, an hour or something tops, but, and then it was great. And then we never had to deal with that again. But I can tell you, but though, it's good to hear from you because I witnessed Ryan, Michelle, go through a very similar sort of experience.

And I think I had not the most compassion for, for her experience vis-a-vis mine. More or less than Jack Pearson. Because Jack was trying to hold a line, but he was also pretty compassionate about it. He did. If I ever put my body between Ryan Michelle and her children,

I don't think I'd still have a body. She's like, bro, you're not blocking the door. You know what I'm saying? I don't care how loving you. I was like, I need you to move so I can get to my child. You know what I'm saying? But like it is a different experience. Like that connection, that tether is real.

Yes. And for nine months before we even get a chance to participate in what father, motherhood begins for you. Immediately. You know what I'm saying? And there's understanding. There's understanding that I could have had and hopefully people who watch the show will have with each other.

Because it goes both ways too, because he had, Jack is saying like, look, at a certain he has to be able to do certain things for himself, right? So it's all about balance, who needs, who your kids need at what time. Like, if they want to play, if they want a challenge or something like, they usually come to me. And they're like, if they want to be taken care of, right, they're not usually asking me for band-aids and for ointment and stuff. They're like, mom, I was like, I do know where the stuff is and I know how to apply it, but I'm not the dude they're coming to.

And I think for her, for Ryan, she'll be like, I can have to, have fun, but they ain't coming to her for that. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's, it's interesting. And it's interesting to watch Jack and Rebecca sort of toggle back and forth between this. Like, Rebecca is like, I can't do this. I don't want to do this. I want to get in this room. Yeah. And Jack sort of, like you said, lovingly holds her at bay until the very end of the episode we see Jack about to give in. Like, I can't hear him cry like this. She's right. This is insufferable. We need to, like, I don't know how we're going to get power. this juncture, but, and he's about to open the door just as Kevin...

Stop's crying. He's trying. He figures it out. He figured it out. It's good. So let's do Kevin, let's do Kevin present day then. Do you want to do the teens, maybe, like the... Let's talk about the 13-year-olds.

Kevin's trying to bulk up. Kev's trying to bulk up. My man is like eating 50 eggs, his coach totally... He said, I got to do it. And then Jack makes a reference to... Nobody can eat 50 eggs. Yeah, it makes a reference to Cool Hand Luke. Yeah.

Real quick. Oh, goodness. Have you seen Cool Hand Luke? No. No, no. It is a good movie. No, no, I'm sure. But it was also,

Jack Pearson turning to a room of teenagers being like, you guys haven't seen Cool Hand Luke? Yeah. Like, no. That's like him turning to me. What? You ever seen this movie?

No. So he's balking up. What is going on with Kate and? and Randall in this time period here. Is anything going on with him? Or is it really just focusing on Kev? It's kind of focusing on Kev.

It's focused on Kev because he's sort of burning the candles on both ends. He's trying to get his body together and he's also trying to like memorize the playbook, which depending on what offense you're playing in can be immense. Yeah. And so they winds up taking them to practice. Jack goes to pick him up.

And the coach, isn't the coach on Friday Night Lights? Isn't he the older brother? Isn't he Tim's on Friday Night Lights? He plays the older brother to Taylor Kitch. George Eads. Yeah. Wait. George Eads.

Is that right? We're looking at up. Oh, wait. No, George Eads is. CSI. C S. Wow. Totally different. CSI.

Apologies. He reminded me of the older brother here. Friday night crime scene investigation. I watch out you. That was George. CSI High School football. But he was great. He was like this day,

a very sort of like, you know, adult men, you know what I'm saying? Like these kids, they're trying to figure it out. Da-da-da-da. You give me a boy's got potential, but he doesn't know the playbook. Yeah. And he's like, I can't recommend him

for this spot at football camp unless he's... I got kids who are, putting in work on this like seven days a week. And Jack was like, oh, he's like, he'll put in the work, right? It turns out playing quarterback takes some book smarts. Takes some ability to study. There you go.

There you go. So we get home. And he's like, well, let's go work on the thing with Jigger. And Rebecca's like, he just got home. He's tired. He's exhausted, right? He's like, yeah, it'd be all right. And he's like, Kev's like, look, I don't want to do this anymore.

I want to play football. I'm just going to quit. Yeah, it's too much. Too much. Dude, you're not going to quit. Now I'm curious because I have gone through this a little bit with, I know you guys are a little bit younger, but have you and your partner discussed, like,

if you put your child in something, what agency they have to step out, tap out, or to finish or tap out once they've finished? Like, you have any thoughts on this? Because it's a conversation that you will ultimately have to have. Rachel and I have actually had a full on conversation about competitive sports. Period. Okay, because you guys were both competitive athletes. Yes, and what it did to us mentally and our relationships to our bodies. Nobody had a positive relationship. Not really. Not particularly. Was it at your direction, though? Was it like, I love tennis, I'm good at tennis. I want to do this? Or was it fueled by family pushing you? In a way. It was, it was, it was, I'm good at tennis. So that makes it easier to participate in.

like I'm good at this. But there was some unspoken pressure about the amount of time and money and that has been put towards this thing. And it's like, you know, it's like one of those good money after bad type things where you're like, well, I've been playing for this long. Oh, now I got a scholarship to college. Okay, well, now that's money. Now I'm getting paid to play this. You played through Loyola? Okay.

Just through freshman year. Okay. And then ended up quitting. But it was more about like there's a real, For she and I, there's a point where you have to figure out the cost benefit of dedicating your young life and body to an activity that is going to have long-term consequences. Because if you're doing this just for something to do. Yeah. And go find another hobby.

Go do something else. Like, like, or if you're going to have, if we're going to have to look at our kids and be like, listen, I know you want to be a professional basketball player. Right. But you're just not going to be. Sure. Like, I don't know what to say. Like eventually the system will weed you out. But also, like, what can, it's so complicated for us.

And it's so complicated, especially when somebody says, because even as a five-year-old bear is like, I don't want to do this anymore. Right. Okay. Well, do you not want to do it because you don't want to do it or you do not. want to do it because it's challenging you. You're frustrated, yeah. And trying to like navigate which is which. What's a fixed mindset?

What's a growth mindset? Right. What is I'm just purely tired. Yeah. Because I want to listen to my children. Yeah. But you also can't put all of your faith in the opinion of a five-year-old. They're still children.

Like, where's this coming from? It takes a lot of interpretation. More, that was us. After this short time. break. I don't know about you, but candy nostalgia is very real for me. The stuff you grew up eating somehow sticks with you forever. Come on, man. There's Halloween, Easter, Valentine's Day. There was always that one candy you hope to get and the ones you trade away immediately. Yeah. What do you hope to get? I like a recess. I like a peanut butter M&M. Like it's peanut butter

and chocolate. A peanut butter and chocolate is my like, I'll die on that hill. and chocolate. Yeah, we all are on the same book? Absolutely. Yeah, the trades were serious. You had to know the value system, the ups and downs, right? Oh, yeah. And that is why I love our new sponsor, Unreal. So they have taken those nostalgic chocolate classics, and they have reinvented them with only the good stuff. So simple ingredients, way less sugar, and somehow they still taste amazing.

That's the key right there, Mandy Moore. Unreal is committed to making chocolate that's better for you without sacrificing taste. They spend over a decade proving that you don't need overly processed sugar for something to be truly delicious. And the taste really holds up. Yeah. It's unreal. The dark chocolate peanut butter cups. I like that.

This is what I'm talking about. The dark chocolate coconut bars. The caramel peanut nugget bars. How do you say nugget? Nooget. Nugget. They hit that same nostalgic craving just without the junk. I love the peanut butter cups.

That's it. Yeah. Those are my favorite. Yeah. Period, the end. They're better than the classic, in my opinion. Because you're using dark chocolate. You're using dark chocolate, and it doesn't have any of the bad stuff in there.

So everything Unreal makes is fair trade certified, gluten-free, non-GMO, and kosher. No artificial preservatives, flavors, or colors, and almost everything they make is vegan, too. You can find Unreal wherever cravings hit, including Whole Foods, Target, Costco, and other grocery stores. Oh, and as a special offer for our listeners, visit unreal snacks.com slash TWU to get $2 off a bag of unreal. Terms and conditions apply. There's a point in adult life, which we see a lot on the show, when you're constantly coming and going. Work trips, school breaks, long weekends that turn into full weeks. You know, this year is particularly special for me and my wife.

I'm turning 50 years old. I have a 20-year wedding anniversary, so I am already on the lookout for how I need to celebrate these momentous occasions. We're planning a couple of trips pretty far out. We're planning on going to Portland to hang out with some family friends,

maybe out to the East Coast to work on a movie, and I want to bring the whole family with me, and we may be looking at Airbnb our place for the L.A. Olympics. We are starting to think about spring break. We're already sort of looking into the future and thinking about summer plans. All of this is made so much easier with the one travel essential we require, which is Airbnb. And during those stretches, your home is just sitting empty waiting for your return.

Hosting your home on Airbnb can fit naturally into that rhythm and is a practical way to make use of your space. Airbnb's co-host network makes hosting easier than ever, connecting you with experience local hosts who can help keep everything running smoothly while you're away. A co-host can help manage reservations, message guests, provide design and styling, and even be there on the ground so the stay runs smoothly. Hosting can also bring in

a little extra cash that helps offset travel or makes those trips feel more manageable. It's a way to share your space while you're off making memories somewhere else. If you're ready to host but want a little extra peace of mind, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host.

I, so I never to the level of you or Rachel, I played basketball, played football, ultimate Frisbee, a little track, etc. And I think for me, it is the commitment, because you guys, those are two individual sports, even though you could say that there's a team aspect to gymnastics, but you're out there performing on a solo basis. There is the accountability to a group of people that you've made a promise to. Yeah. Right? And sort of that is a lesson that I think has served me throughout life. Because I think there's really no difference between a team and a cast. Like they're the same things.

You guys are out there for a common purpose and you have, you depend on each other. Right. So the idea of just saying like, I'm tapping out is like, could you imagine if like any of us just be like, I can't make it today, guys? Yeah. I just, I'm not feeling it. Yeah. Ah, come on, bro. If you're sick, that's when we have the conversation is like, are you hurt or are you in? If you are hurt, you go out there and play.

If you are injured, you go take care of yourself because you physically cannot do it. And then in terms of just what does it mean to finish what you start, right? And you don't want to be diabolical and you don't want to be sort of dogmatic and just sort of like make things unfun. But if your child is the person that said that they wanted to do something, right? then sometimes they do need help to see their commitment through to the end. Right. Yeah. I'm following your lead here, Big Dog.

You know what I'm saying? It's not dad pushing something on you or whatnot. You said, I want to do this. Part of wanting to do this entails that. Yeah. I can't count. I mean, how many times have I heard I don't want to go to school, you know, and then at the end of the day, I've had such a good time. It's so, you know what I mean?

So it's like. You don't want to go to school. I don't want to go to jail. So see you. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to figure itself out. So what, so talk to me, though.

Kev overhears, like we were saying, right? He sent him upstairs. Rebecca and Jack have a bit of an argument. She's like, I wish you would have talked to me before you just start doing stuff. The boy does not want to play this anymore. I'm going upstairs and telling them that he doesn't have to do it. And he's like, I strongly, what was the word?

He said that. I strongly suggest a urge that you don't. It was something like that. It's right here. of it, I am strongly asking you, what is, oh, I am strongly asking you not to do that. He said that. Dude, there's so many fights that would happen between Baffa and Brown that magically did not happen between no, but that was, I mean, that was extremely, uh, woke in the 1990s.

It was. It was back. For the 1990s? Yes. What a, what a compassionate way for a father to speak. Like, honestly asking you. Not to do that. Because for Jack Pearson, that was, that was like, I'm not trying to pick a fight.

Like the language that he had available for him is like, I'm not trying to pick a fight. But I do see like this kid right now is not used to pushing through things. Right. That was what he's trying to say. And you were trying to say, well, why does he have to push through anything? He's not enjoying himself, right? I want him to be happy now. Right? And I think that's oftentimes what happens between moms and dads, right?

So unbeknownst to them, poor guy standing in the stairwell and he's listening to this. And he's like, my dad thinks that I'm soft. And I had like, ooh, yeah. Couldn't imagine. Yeah, yeah. It's a rough one for it. For your dad for like the dude in your life who you think is just everything? on a pedestal, yeah. To think that you are just like not cutting the mustard?

Yeah. So my man goes into his bedroom and he'd already talked, he'd been making fun of Randall earlier. Randall tried to help him. Who suggested flashcards? There's this moment where you see Kev going to the bedroom and Randall is studying. And he's like, will you show me what you're doing with all these colored cards, right? And he's like, I know you're setting up some sort of joke or whatever.

So I'm not going to fall for it. I'm just throwing my stuff. He's doing this thing. And Kev sits down. down next to him, he goes, no, I'm serious, man. I need your help. And that was, I was like, I don't know if Kevin Pearson has said that to Randall Pearson.

I felt like a first. Well, and this is the excellent writing of the This Is Us team addressing the difference between the version of masculinity, the idea of masculinity that we were raised with. Yeah. And what it truly means to be a man.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like, it used to be that binary. Hard and soft. Right. You're either hard and a man or soft and not. Yeah.

And what Jack is identifying as softness, it's actually a young man who is embarrassed. Right. Who is nervous, who is doubtful. and who doesn't know how to express those things, right? Which is vulnerability, which we've all heard Ms. Briné Brown discuss, you know, modern masculinity involving not bravery, but vulnerability. The willingness to do something that scares you anyways, or the ability to express yourself.

So when he gets up there to talk to his brother and he says, I need your help. I mean, that's masculine. That's masculinity. Totally. Yes. Totally. It hit like a ton of break.

And the next thing you see is that his brother is helping him through with the cards. And mom was about to go upstairs to tell him that, like, he doesn't have to do it. And then she bore witness to two brothers who historically don't always get along like peas in a pod. Working together. Working together, giving each other high fives. And she's like, oh, goes back downstairs, tells her husband, she's like, you know what, man, maybe you had something to it. Like, I was about to go up there. I saw these dudes high fiving each other.

and things are working out. And even dad was like, they high-fived each other. They weren't really slapping each other? You know what I'm saying? They weren't in a fight? That was really, that was one of my, are you sure they weren't trying to slap each other in the head? That's a good one.

And then to echo sort of like the sleep training with what was happening with the 13-year-olds, like now you see Kev has sort of taken the mantle from his brother and is working on the cards by himself. Is soothing himself. Yeah. He's laying in bed. Embarrassed in front of his car. coach because he couldn't pull the thing off.

Yeah. You know, anxious about knowing what he needs to know. And he's found a way by asking for help. Totally. To self-soothe. Yeah. And to get himself where he needs to be. Yeah, to remedy that.

Yeah. It's beautiful. So I actually, can we go into present-day care? Yes. Yeah. Because he has gotten this new. Oh, wow. Film.

This new film. Not a movie. A film. A film. A film. Guys. This guy's good. Can I say something?

Yeah. This triggered Brown a little bit. Oh, has this happened? Not necessarily that it's happened. Yeah. But that attitude, that's sort of like, I don't know how I would deal with. That attitude is a little schmoo in the back of my head

that I think everybody feels towards me. You know what I mean? Like they never express it. I've never had this situation, but it's almost like this guy was a personification, of the actor's nightmare. Totally. That's what I'm talking about.

That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, this director. Let's tell them what's happening. Kev has booked this movie. It's with a three-name. Film. Film. His book, this film.

Like, Foster something, something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely gave him a three-name, a triple name. Charles Foster Kane. Like, it's something like that, right? Jordan Martin Foster. Which had to be, Foster. I want to know the writers

if they took those three names. names from other like all tours like Jordan Peel, Foster. Martin Scorsese. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and Martin Scorsese. I don't know. Who knows? But like he goes into still middle COVID meets his co-star played by Jamie Chang.

Very cool. And then the director comes in. He lavishes praise. And it's like I couldn't have done, I told the studio if we couldn't get you for the movie. I wasn't going to do it. I wasn't going to do it. Just goes on. and on and Kev and leaves Kev standing there like okay like doesn't even say hi like like

it's intentional yeah it's intentional so awful so they decide that they they jump into the script they dive in they start the scene scene seems like it's going pretty well um there's this whole part about like what she says like honestly and he goes honestly or just to be honest you know usually when people say that they're about to tell you me something that's not the truth. They're about to lie, right? And so every time they get there, Foster, or we're not sure what to call them, at this time. Interrupts them. Interrupts them.

And then goes, Jamie Chung, you were great. That was wonderful. You give me everything, but everything that I need. And let's just take it back. So he looks at it for a second, but doesn't give him anything. So like this happened like three or four times where he just would do the scene from the beginning. And when they get to the same spot, Kevin is a good sport about it. He would, he would just stop.

He's like, can we go take it back a couple of lines? And you see Kev sort of like, all right. And then eventually he's like, you know, what do you mean? You keep interrupting me every time. And he said, I wish I didn't have to. Listen, I have my own issues with Caucasian people to begin with. But that dude would have got a knuckle sandwich. Oh.

Open-faced? No, no, no. No, no. No, a knuckle. Let me tell you something. This is the open-faced sandwich. Yeah. He's got a knuckle.

I don't think I've been, thankfully, I have not had this experience. And you guys tell me if you had one where you just got little to nothing from a director, where, and they seemed content not to give you anything, but for you to live inside of your head wondering, What is it that I'm not giving them that keeps making them stop? I've never had that. Now, I've heard of people doing lots and lots of takes. I've actually heard a story relatively recently, Mandy Moore, and we'll talk about later, where actors are sort of getting put through the paces and not giving any information as to what's...

That's mean. Yeah. That's mean. And as I... Like, this may be a sort of insider of baseball, and I just want to sort of clarify to people, Like if you've never been in that situation, because some people would be like, oh, well, you just want to do it again.

I don't know. No, dude, tell me what's happening. Yeah. Tell me why. Otherwise, let me finish the whole deadgum scene. Yeah. And then come at me with something. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. I didn't like it. You need communication. That is the top line. That's the word you're talking about. Like, I just want communication. I don't want someone to come and pat me on the back and be like, that was great.

Like, I don't need that. Yeah. But I want to know that you are getting what you're need. And if you're not, tell me what you need. Tell me what you want me to do differently. It's the directors that just do take after take after take after take after take and don't tell you why. There's no communication. So you as an actor are like floating out in the water like, hello? Yeah. Anybody? Is it for camera? Is it a background actor? Is it a we just lighting? Like what needs to change? Just let me know. Just say that's much. Like,

oh, we had a background actor that took the wrong cue or something, we're going to go from the top again. Yeah. Great. Like, I just want to know, like, am I, because if I'm not giving you what you need, I want to remedy that. Totally.

Give me the chance to do that. So Kev is waiting outside of stages 30, 31 of Paramount Lot, which is where we would shoot our show in the actuality. And he's waiting for the director to come out. Director comes out and he's like, hey, man, I just want to know, like, do I call you Foster or call you, by your other two names, et cetera, and my man takes his mask off,

and he's like, you waited out here to ask me that? Like, just like, not giving them much at all. And he's like, I was just wondering, like, you know, what could I do to, you know, make it better? Like, I want to give you what you want, basically, is what he's talking about. And he says something to the effect of, like, I learned today that you are a good actor, right? Right?

And he said, but you could be great. And today is the day that you decide whether or not this is the closest you come to greatness, or you actually decide to put in that way. Come back tomorrow. And he says, I'll see you tomorrow. That's just, he decided to see you tomorrow. And you see Kev go home with his script, with his color cards, working over, like, just intentions, beats, whatever it is that he's working on. He's like, you ain't going to break me, dog.

Now, he wouldn't break me either, but I hate that he has. to get to that point through that, douchey directors, baby. And shout out to the actor, because he did a good job. He did a good job. He was the obstacle that he was meant to be to further my man in his progress. Because I think sometimes comfort stands in the way of evolution. Right? And all the things that we think about in terms of even in the past,

in terms of what we want for our children is to make them feel good. And sometimes allowing them in a safe space to be uncomfortable is the thing that allows them to become the next best version of themselves. Right. So I like the storyline. I like seeing Kevin as a baby and Kevin, who we never actually see, but then the teenager,

and then Justin sort of being like, you know what? People thought I was soft at one point in time. Like I heard my dad tell me that one, not tell me, but tell you that to my mom. I'm gonna show y'all what softest. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Like the dude who's been underestimated or whatnot. I was like, I got a little bit more to me than what y'all think, right? I dig it. Yeah. I dig it. Really good. Who should we go to know? Randall?

What's going to? Modern day? What's happening? He decides he's going to allow Malik to. Yes. Oh, wow. To shadow his work day. This is like some pre-shower, Paradise Shower, Episode 3, Randall, Sterling vibes.

that gave Dan the idea for Paradise. Oh, that's right. That's right. I did hear that. I did hear it. There is such joy that I derive in messing with lyric as Randall messing with Dajia, the idea of spending all day with her boyfriend and just like, what's going on in her mind? What is he going to tell him?

What is he going to, he better not be doing it. And I can see like on her face, she's like, you are way having way too much fun with this. And the truth of the matter was. It was the actor was having too much fun. All. And so everybody. Sterling. Randall.

That's right. Especially when Randall gets that. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Yeah. Diabolical. It's good time. Malik comes. He's like six minutes late.

Randall messes with them a little bit, but doesn't give him too much of a hard time. They go to the office and Malik's falling asleep, having a little brief with Jay Wan, figuring out what we to do for the rest of the day. Jay Wan's got to leave. And normally I do this. It was a riveting briefing. It was riveting. Yeah.

Yeah, no. And by riveting, not riveting. Yeah. You do a live stream. I do a live stream every day, just sort of like updating people with what's happening and how they can get involved and et cetera, et cetera. Jay Juan can't do it? I say, Malik, can you, like, just all you got to do is press play or turn it along and stop forward and start after I say this certain line and Malik knows the line.

He's like, get the heck out of here. Randall does his thing, and he's talking about his connection to the community and how these are the people of his father's people. I'm William Hill's son, and because of that, you guys are my people as well. I'm doing this for William Hill. I'm doing this for William Hill, right? Meanwhile, Malik is distracted. Malik in the other room. Talking to his mom, evidently, his daughter doesn't have something.

I don't know if it's formula or something, but he's just trying to put out fires to make sure that his daughter's being taken care of and that his mom isn't feeling overwhelmed. by giving to that, right? He finishes it, he knows he's going to go for a jog after he's finished with the thing. He says the line, gives a little bit of beat, starts to change his clothes, right? Malik does not turn off the live broadcast because he is distracted.

And Randall begins to get changed. He has a little song for folding his shirt, which I missed, which is really... Meanwhile, as we have found earlier in this scene that Malik has accidentally admitted that Deja watches the live broadcast every day. Which he was not supposed to talk about her. He wasn't supposed to say anything.

He wasn't supposed to say anything. And Deja is watching the feed unfold as Randall is. And she's like, oh no. Undressing and doing a little shimmy and shake. Also, that was the slowest undress of all time. I'm like, dude, why we're going out for a jog, I'd be like, Let me tell you something.

There are different takes, different things. I think it was, is this Ken? Is this Ken the director? I think it's Ken. Yeah, Ken was like, slow it down. He was slow it way down. He said, Sterrell, we're going to need a look because we're going to have to cut back to this footage, whatever,

so if you could find a way to sort of embellish it, make it last. I was like, okay. We're going to have to cut back to this. So if you could slow it way down. For the audience. For the audience. And that's a good. exactly what it was.

I was like, all right, this feels like a little much, guys, but all right, do a little thing. Why is he dancing? I don't know what that is, but that's not dancing. Sometimes you got a shimmy. Listen, because now that I have a stylist and you have these things on the red carpet or whatnot, let me, let me, so this is true story.

True story. Please, be honest. As a child, Brown was a fan of the sag, right? Would wear things only with like 36 in the waist. Brown's waist not 36, probably around like a 30, something like that. See, oh, you liked the pants sacking. I need to breathe in these extremities.

Now when you get like the stylist on you or whatnot, you get- You get holler like putting clothes on you. Yeah. They like best of snug. Yeah. So then your boy actually has to shimmy out a little way. I got a shimmy out.

Well, normally it just sort of drops down from my wardrobe. Yes. But now that I'm like wearing clothes. that fit. I used to always laugh at women. I was like, why y'all are easy? Why you wear stuff? Because women wear stuff that fit. I'm now wearing clothes that fit and I have to shimmy a little bit more than I'm constantly. You want stuff that hugs your body. I suppose. But the live stream has gone out to the entire city of Philadelphia. Anyone that's watching. Anyone that's watching. And we want to skip ahead when J-Wan calls? And just follow this through. No, because that's the... So before that,

There's just sort of a conversation between Malik and Randall going like, look, bro, you asked me to be here. You know, you were late, you fall in the sleep. You had one thing I ask you to do and you can't get it done, right? Count. And he said, listen, Mr. Pearson, you know, I'm sorry. I'm deeply apologetic. You know, like how early I had to wake up in order to get to you six minutes late? I had to wake up at 4.30.

I have to get all my daughter's meals ready for the day so my mom doesn't have to deal with that. And my daughter wakes up at six. So I start that so that it's all taken care of. And then I got to catch the bus to you, you know. And I do care about this a great deal. It's just that like I have to put this child first, right? And Randall says that like, I understand what you're saying. I appreciate that.

But I don't want you to make your dreams small. right? Like you should make your dreams big not in spite of your daughter but because for your daughter right? And I think that Randall, part of him in his mind, he makes mention of this in one episode, is it this one or earlier where he says like this part of his own story is putting his dreams

on hold to make sure to take care of everybody. And he's trying to impart on Malik like I don't want Malik to do the same thing like what I did. And I love that Malik's like oh no, my heart. My dreams are plenty big, dude. I'm gonna go to an Ivy League school and I'm gonna major in business.

And then I'm gonna go to culinary school and I'm gonna open like the only like three-star Michelin restaurant like all of Philly. I said, all right, bro, you're doing all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's cool, it's cool. So, okay, that's that. We go home, my wife is like greets me at the door and she starts doing like this little shimmy, shimmy, cocoa pop sort of thing.

I'm like, hey, man, I'm not ready to laugh about it just yet. I would be horrified. Like, I'm going to be honest with you. Like, if this happened to me, it was not intentional, and they saw me acting a damn fool, oh, that's embarrassing. Yeah, yeah. He doesn't even know the worst of it yet. No.

No, it doesn't. No. So he, they all make peace with it, et cetera. But so then Jay Wong calls him and he's like, you look, you normally get about five, thousand views on these things. Yeah. This one's going kind of viral. He's like,

viral how? He's like, it's like, it's around 100,000. And it's not just like in the city, but it's going to go like country nationwide, right? You're a meme. He's a meme. He's meme.

He sees him, he looks at his memes and everything at one point in time. I have a couple of those that like, like, memed out. And it's kind of like, oh, wow. Flattering. It's sweet. That's cool.

Like my son, every once in a while, my son gets teased with memes of me. Oh. And I was like, Oh, boy, the boy didn't ask for this. The boy. Turns out, we zoom and we see there's somebody who's actually watching the thing that's gone national. And it keeps rewinding back, not just the sort of undressing part, but listening to this clip about, you know, I did this for William Hill.

Yeah. Did this from William Hill. And we pan out and we see, it's that Vietnamese granddaddy from the last episode. That had pictures of him and laurel. the Lord. He's like, oh, snap. I know that name. It is like, and I got to tell you, this, this was a great Trojan horse because I completely forgot. Me too. Like how the dots get connected and how he found it. Yeah. Like, I was like, that was, I never, I did not see it coming. I just thought it was about me and Malik and responsibility and dreams, et cetera. And then in my

finds a way to do. That was good. Yeah. It was really good. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Where are we I think Toby and Kate are the storyline that's left, and they're still in their process of trying to be excited about this adoption process. Yes, sir. You're too excited. Yeah. Teppering their expectations. Don't mess it up.

Until the ink is dry. No false steps. Right. And Kate heads off to an ultrasound. Yep. With Ellie. Because only one person can go. Ellie?

Ellie. Ellie. Yeah. Ellie. During the COVID times. During the COVID times, one person can go. We decided that you said that you were going to name the base. Where did Chloe come from?

Chloe. It was just, Kate said it. It was just the name. Yeah, she was just like, oh, baby Chloe. Yeah, it's just clear that's the name they've been talking about. I like the name. I like the name. Yeah.

It's a good name. Okay. First name, baby, middle name, Chloe. Um. Baby Chloe. Yeah. Baby Chloe Damon. And she goes with her to the ultrasound.

And they talk about how tasty, uh, how tasty, uh, ultrasound, gel looks that's your I don't I don't I don't echo that I get I get ultrasounds on my foot yeah all the time I was like this stuff looks gross anyway yeah I mean I can understand it it's a texture thing right if if a gel is is interesting to anybody maybe to each their own now teach their own fine not for me you guys don't like that sound can't say that one is that good for the listeners it's the end too they're like When they get a good squirt. Yeah.

And then they're doing it. And Kate, and Kate uses the name Chloe. Yeah. During the ultrasound. Inadvertently, it sort of just falls out of her mouth. And you can see Ellie's face drop. Yeah. And Kate thinks, oh-oh, I've done something.

I've made a mistake. Well, because they're gonna go, you're on the Zoom. You're looking at the baby. Everybody's excited. Like, would you like to grab a bite to eat after this? Like, I'd love to grab a bite to eat. And like, look at baby Chloe. And then Ellie's face falls.

Also, shout out to Ellie. And like, this is one of the things that I wondered. I was like, will we be able to communicate what we need to with masks on our face? Oh, yeah, just with her eyes. And it was clear. Yeah. Like everything was clear, you know. And I remember having that wonder, it's like,

oh, will people be able to ascertain what's happening if we have our mask on? Played. Yeah. Yeah. have a conversation out in the parking lot about about that and Kate is trying to ascertain what the issue might be I think I dropped the ball when I said Chloe did I do something wrong yeah right Ellie winds up saying like listen you have the right to name the baby whatever you want to but like my husband and I have been together like we've known each other since the 10th grade and I wondered

like he didn't ask me out immediately and I remember I was trying to make a move we went to the beach I took off my shirt I had on my cute little bikini top and my dude is just staring at my chest and I was like, hey, I know I got some, whatever. And he's like, you don't have like a big hairy mole on your, was that, is that what birth mark or something? In the shape of South America? In the shape of South America? And she's like, what are you talking about? So evidently, like, his lab partner in chemistry class or whatever had been giving him false information about Ms. Ellie and that young lady's name was Chloe. Was Chloe. Which is a big part of the baby naming process, right? One partner throws out a name and your.

You're like, oh, I have a bad association with that name. No, yeah. Chloe kicked me in the crotch and junior high school. Can't do that. No, Chloe. Off the list. Can't be Chloe. Yeah.

Whatever the thing is. You know, it's something, I don't exactly remember how this whole thing plays out. Like, the storyline. Well, she says, you know. You mean in future episodes. In future episodes. Yeah. And I kind of don't either.

I don't want to know. I don't remember. Like, do you remember? Yeah. You remember because it's your story. Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, yeah. Well, I mean, yeah.

Well, I remember plenty. I don't remember plenty about what my storylines were. Because the thing is, like, we know that they, who are you? We know that they, oh, wait, is the daughter in the future, is her name Chloe? Did they mention her name? No, no, it's not. Her name's not Chloe. It's not Chloe.

It's Haley. Yeah. So we don't know now if we decide to change the name or if this thing falls apart. But they leave, but they leave this. On a good note, because she says basically, you know, like I hope, you're not having second thoughts about this. And Ellie's like, I am having second thoughts about everything in my life, but knowing that this baby is for you guys.

And she said, you should be able to name this baby whatever you want. Yeah. But does it have to be Chloe? But yeah. Guys, big story point. For a moment, Ellie thought about whether she should have an abortion. Yes. Yes.

Yes. She mentions that at one point, she was like, should I even continue this pregnancy? Yes. And she says, I hope you don't think less of me and Kate's like I would never judge you. Yeah. And that's where she goes the second, you know, I've had second thoughts about everything in my life, but this baby and knowing that this baby is yours. Right.

And so later that night when Kate is talking to Toby, she says, you know, there's something that I need to talk to you about that I haven't shared with. My parents and my brothers. Yeah. Nobody. And in the flashback, we, we. She talks about her, her, I'm sorry, Sterling, her relationship with Mark. I understand.

And how awful it was. And we flashed back to that time where you were going. To New York. To visit Kevin during his showcase. And she decided to stay home. She stayed home, yeah. Because? She stayed home because I think she had a sneaking suspicion.

She hadn't had her period that potentially she might be pregnant. Yeah. And she was correct. She had the protest. She goes to the bathroom. Last thing we see is a big old positive sign on that thing. And then it cuts back to the two of you talking to each other. And we recognize that, oh, my goodness, Kate must have had an abortion at some point.

Either lost or we don't know all the particulars, but there was a baby that was she was with child that ultimately did not. That nobody has ever known about. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a big one. And I'll tell you this. I was in the writer's room. when they were talking about this

and whether or not this was a storyline that they wanted to broach and like, you know, do you think America would be, you know, okay, dealing with Kate having an abortion and whatnot? And then I remember, I think it was Elizabeth saying, it was like, I don't care if they're okay with it or not. This is part of life, and it's a part of life that I think our show is uniquely equipped to address.

And the idea that we would not talk about it says to make people comfortable, she's like, no. And I was like, all right, Burger. That's right, you, girl. That's how we do. That's what this show does. Yeah, man. It's good.

That's the show. That's the episode. Yeah. So, bit of a cliffhanger. Yeah. And we're going to get to do a little special segment here at the end. Yeah. And talk to one of our writers.

Oh, we are. We're talking to Elon? Yeah, we're going to talk to Yilan. Oh, snap. Let's give them some ads. And we'll be back with more. That was us right after this. More That Was Us after these words from our sponsors.

This time of year, I always feel that shift where the pace slows down a little. The holidays are behind us, the year's underway, and you start paying attention to the small things that make you and your home feel good. It's less about big gestures and more about everyday comfort. How you wind down at night, how you start your mornings,

and what helps you actually feel rested. That's why this episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. Their whole mission is about elevating everyday moments through better materials and thoughtful design. And it really shows in the pieces you use the most. You guys, I've said this before, but I was a cozy earth fan before they became a sponsor of our podcast.

Talk to us. I found their sheets a couple years ago and was just immediately obsessed and addicted. Yeah, agreed. Yeah. The first set of sheets I've ever been like, I've got to get to bed. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. They're pajamas? Oh, that's next level. That was an introduction to me via the podcast. When we talk about bamboo, are sheets made out of? Yes.

Yes. Yes, Sterling, and they are very soft. I need to get in their very soft. I wear their sheets as pajamas if you catch my drift. Come on, big dog. Toga, toga. For me, it's the way cozy earthpieces instantly make you feel calmer. Slipping into their pajamas, I do have the pajamas,

or climbing into bed with fresh sheets, I need the sheets, actually helps me slow down at the end of the day. The quality is what really stands out for me. Everything feels soft and intentional, and it really holds up. up over time. It's comfort that feels considered, not just cozy for one season. Yeah, I've, I've been a fan for a long time. Their sheets have lasted for many, many seasons. And now their pajamas are a new introduction to me. And the channel cuddle blanket? You guys, is one of those things you grab. I grab it without, I grab it without thinking. It's the heavy. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I do have that. Yes. I have that

blanket. Oh, my gosh. Couch time. Yeah. Early mornings, late nights. It just makes those quiet moments feel better. I'm up early. Guys, my alarm is set for 5 a.m. All right? You 5 a.m? Yes. And I get up there.

Wait, like pre-children? Like you get up before the kids? Yes. Just to have a little you time. Just have a little me time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have my coffee. I do a little writing.

I do a little whatever I need to do. I make some lunches. And then out-toddell's a little toddler who wants a little cuddle. Sure. Under that cozy channel cuddle blanket. Oh my goodness. So fuzzy. So cute. I love it.

That is what I appreciate about Cozy Earth. It turns simple moments at home into something that actually feels restorative. They also make it easy to try with a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty. So you can really live with it and see how it fits into your routine. Share a little extra love this February and wrap yourself or someone you care about in comfort that truly feels special. Head to CozyEarth.com and use our code TWU for up to 20% of. off. And if you get a post-purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about cozy earth right here. Celebrate everyday love with comfort that makes the little moments count.

At Desjardin Insurance, we know that when you're a building contractor, your company's foundation needs to be strong. That's why our agents go the extra mile to understand your business and provide tailored solutions for all its unique needs. You put your heart into your company. So, We put our heart into making sure it's protected. Get insurance that's really big on care. Find an agent today at Dejardin.com slash business coverage. We are so excited because today we have the writer of episode 504 is here with us. Yes, Elan Mestai is joining us on Zoom to break down the episode and share some behind-the-scenes stories with us.

Let's jump right in and bring on Eland. How are you? Very well. So nice to see. I mean, it's nice to see two out of the three of you. Oh, no. Oh, no. Who can you not see?

Oh, no, I'm, I was, that was joking. That was a, I was a, oh, I see. No, no, no. Now I get it. And I know who it is. Yeah. I thought you might. It's, it's, it's mad.

Delightful to see all of you. I could just sit this one out. Where did we find you in this beautiful. apartment. Oh, this is my, this is my house in Toronto where I live. Right on, bro. What have you been? No. It's been a few years since last we've seen you. How is life? How are you doing? Like, what's popping? Did you move back to Toronto? Did you always? Yeah. Okay.

After the show ended, yeah, we relocated back to Toronto. I mean, I moved to L.A. with my family to do this show. And then afterwards we moved back. Yeah, my wife works in, my wife is an executive at the, at the CBC, which is like the Canadian BBC. So, yeah, so we came back here. And most of the work I do these days is remote. So I was kind of able to do it from wherever. And then I obviously come down whenever I need to.

I love it. Nice. You're one of the few people I've met from, are you from Toronto, Toronto, Toronto? I'm actually, I'm from Vancouver. From Vancouver. Because I'm about to say, because a lot of people, if I say Toronto, if I say Toronto, in Toronto, they say it's Toronto. Yeah, you gotta drop the tea.

Yeah, the second tea. Drop the hard tea. There you go. They do it politely though. Yes, it's Toronto. Yeah, people say Toronto. Toronto. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I just had to get that. There you go. Now you guys can fit in. We just got finished talking about 504. A lovely episode of television, setting up a lot of things regarding the future of the show, starting to get into Laurel's story a little bit. bit. Kev's sort of evolution in terms of who the kind of man that he wants to be as he's moving into fatherhood, et cetera. Great episode. Oh, also the introduction of a little backstory for

Kate, right? And things that transpired between her and Mark that we're just finding out. Everybody's just finding out in this episode. Talk to us a little bit about you and the writers breaking the episode and putting it down pen to paper. And maybe a little bit of how you first were brought on to the show. For sure. And yeah, and then I guess maybe more specifically this episode. Sure. Well, you know, like all these kind of things, there's a bit of a longer story, but the short

version of it is Jess Rosenthal. Yeah. Who is Dan's producing partner. Him and I had a general meeting years before This Is Us. He'd read a script I wrote or maybe he'd seen a movie that I did, What If? Is this film that I did. Yeah. And just met and had a lovely conversation.

I mean, he's just like a great dude. Yeah. And, you know, for people who aren't in the business, like a general meeting is just when you're meeting somebody. And it's like what it sounds like, you're not trying to sell them anything. They're not hiring. You just get a chance to meet. And it's actually kind of like a nice thing where it's not transactional. You're just trying to see if you guys hit it off.

You sure each other. And so, you know, we just kind of kept in touch. You know, I had a novel published this book I wrote called All Our Wrong Todays. And he sent me a lovely note about it when he read it. And when Dan Fogelman's movie Life itself premiered at the Toronto Film Festival, I got invited. So we just kind of kept in touch over the years. But I didn't really have any, like, designs on joining the writing team for This Is Us. Because, I mean, you know, so like 2019, season three, I mean, it's like the biggest show on TV.

And, you know, any TV writer in America would, like, you know, be thrilled to join this team, but I am neither a TV writer nor an American. So I just, you know, it wasn't something I was like planning on. Yeah. But one day, you know, February of 2019, you know, I'm in Toronto. It's like Ice Planet Hoth, like it's horrible, right? It's just like, you know, it's like so cold and windy. And my wife and I went to go see a play because a friend of ours was in it. And at intermission, I checked my phone and there's like a bunch of missed calls for my agent, which is like a little weird. I wasn't working at anything that was urgent. But they got a call from Jess Rosenthal saying, you know, that he, they're losing a writer who'd been with the show from the beginning.

And he kind of had a feeling about me and Dan and Isaac and Elizabeth. And he knows it was like a long shot, but would I ever consider coming to L.A. and joining the team. And the answer was yes, I would. And so, you know, I came down. He said it's currently 72 degrees here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, there was like any land. shaped hole in the wall of the theater. No, I mean, but I came down and met with everybody and just loved the way that they, you know, I was a fan of the show. Like, my wife and I watched it every week. You know, so I knew I was up on everything that was going on. Oh, cool. And in fact, I literally remember the R&B episode, season three, was the day, the night before

my meeting with Isaac and Elizabeth. And then I met with Dan as well. And so I was like, you know, I walked in. I was like, I was really glad that I knew. that they didn't get divorced before I walked into my meeting. And so, yeah, and so, you know, we joined the show. So I joined the show and, you know, moved to L.A. I came first, and then my wife and kids joined me, and we lived there while we worked on the,

on the show. And, yeah, it became, I mean, it was interesting because, of course, you know, like a wife and kids moving to a new city because the husband just took this kind of really exciting new job, of course, was incredibly relevant at the top of season four because that's exactly what happened to Randall and Beth in the girls. And that was sort of more, and so right away in the room, I was advocating like, let's make this messy because it's not easy to change up your life that way. And then, of course, you know, Chris, this might be familiar to you, somebody getting this really incredible job that takes

them to another city and their wife has to decide if she's going to leave the job she loves and move their kids and move away from her parents and her support network and come to this new city. And all the challenges of that and how that can put pressure on a marriage became very much part of Cotobie's story as well. And that was more the negative side of it. Yeah. And you must have made that move also at the top of a

worldwide pandemic? Or before, right before. Right before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a year before. A year before. Yeah, in season five, which was my second season on the show,

it was the pandemic year. And this episode, talking about writing it was, So we shot this episode. It was the last of our first block. So we were like the first show back in COVID. And we were still figuring out how do you safely make a television show under the circumstances? And I'm sure you guys have, you know, like flashbacks to like looking out in everybody's in hazmat suits as you're trying to act.

And this was the last. So 504 was the last episode of the very first block. And, you know, the episodes were taking longer to shoot. They were more complicated. They were more expensive trying to do it safe. So this one was at the very end. And I don't know if you guys remember this, but we shot this episode. I looked it up because I had the notes from when we made it.

We shot it from like October 29th to November 6th, which also spanned the U.S. presidential election, which happened in the middle of this episode. And I don't know if you guys remember, we didn't know who won in 2020. Right, right. And that was happening while we were shooting. And we wrapped this episode on November 6th. And normally we have five to six weeks to cut the episode. We were so pushed on schedule.

This episode aired on November 17th, 11 days after we wrapped. Wait, what? Yeah. Yeah, it was crazy. Holy cow, Ann, I don't remember that. Yeah, it was wild. And the post team, particularly the woman who edited, Lysan Ho, who edited this. Like, I mean, it's insane.

Like, I think it's, like, I'm very proud of the episode, and I think we all did a wonderful job. But, like, it was made under, like, probably the most intense time pressure of any episode in the history of the show to get it on, on television. I did not know that. You will also be the first writer that we speak to

who experienced the backyard tent writer's room. Oh, yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah. Well, so, I mean, actually, I didn't experience the tent. Sort of. So I had to come back from, I had gone to Canada during the hiatus and had to come back.

And so I actually hadn't come back yet. And so I was exactly like this. And because, you know, with the vaccines and everything, it took me a beat to get back. And so they started the tent and they piped me in on video. And so I was like this, and it was way bigger than the screen you're looking at now. I was like the Wizard of Oz. Like they had this great screen in my head.

Incredible. And all I could see was everybody over the course of the first couple days because it was boiling hot. Yeah. And then they were piping in AC. And so the AC was like being in a wind. tunnel and everybody was either alternately melting or freezing and then there was an attack of mosquitoes and so i was watching everybody like on video like kind of doing this all the time and like slapping themselves while we're also trying to break possibly like the most complex

season premiere in the history of the show yeah it was um it was a lot um you know but you know you had the best seat in the house though oh yeah and i mean i was constantly i would like you know just like open a cool drink and just drink it and watch everybody. Literally like you'd watch over the course, people were sweating. Did you ever make it to the backyard tent or by the time you got there, the tent was sort of passed? By the time I returned, it was decided that the tent had been a noble experiment, but that ultimately we were not going to continue.

Yeah, you kept suspiciously delaying your return. I can't make it. The borders are closed. Yes. I can't say I was like in a giant rite. to be in the tent. I mean, I think, you know, it was like it was an experience. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. So this episode deals with a lot of complex themes. I'm speaking most specifically to Kate and Mark and the introduction of, you know, this potential abortion or miscarriage or something. We don't know exactly what happened. We do know there is a positive pregnancy test. We know that the baby is not in Kate's life. Maybe she gave the baby up for a time.

You know, like, we don't know the full, we don't have the full understanding of what the situation is. And Sterling said that he was actually in the room when this was sort of talked about. And Elizabeth Berger sort of advocating for like our show has never shied away from having these sorts of difficult conversations. Like, why would we start now? This is a, just matter of fact, like this is a part of. so many women's lives and stories. And, you know, I think our show is best suited to tell this story in a thoughtful, respectful way, as I think we handle every subject matter.

So I'm curious if you want to speak to, like, how you felt, you know, because this is, it is very tricky territory to wade into these waters. Yeah. And we had, you know, as Sterling noted, we had robust debates about exactly how to handle it. But my feeling was like once, I was all for it, first of all, because I agree with Elizabeth, like, this, you know, what makes this show special? I mean, and particularly this season where we're going full on into COVID and George Floyd's murder and Black Lives Matter and so many other complex issues. And, you know, Randall as a character is holding his siblings feet to the fire in a way he never has before about their history. And we're dealing with Alzheimer's and we're dealing with a lot of stuff.

Like why, you know, we're in a unique position. People, these characters are beloved and we have never shied away from anything. Let's not shy away from this. This is a part of a lot of people's lives. And what I liked about it was I thought it was also very powerful for Kate, you know, to have held onto this her whole life and finally want to talk about it. As a writer, you know, what was nice about it was, you know, I had this kind of lovely story about her going, you know, being invited to the ultrasound and, you know,

Ellie, played by Annie Funk, has this, you know, monologue about the name and how sure she is. And there's this great little moment that, you know, Toby has, talking about the melted wax baby. And it feels like you're kind of like classic feel-good, Kate and Toby, not super heavy story lies. Right. And then, but part of that is, you know,

one of the things we talked about in the writer's room all the time was weaponizing expectation, right? So there's what the audience thinks is, happening and how sometimes you give them what they think is going to happen. My wife and I talk about that all the time too. And sometimes you're coming at you sometimes you're weaponizing that expectation and that was one of these episodes and as a writer you know you have that like you we have like a giant bomb that we were about to drop in their relationships and in the audience's understanding of Kate's history. This is like a becomes a profound part of her story. Oh yeah.

For sure. And so it's just trying to get it right and you know obviously based on me trying to listen to the women in the room and make sure that I was being... For the people just listening, you're a man. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Then maybe you're not watching this podcast on YouTube. And if not, why not?

Exactly. That's what we say all the time. But, you know, so it was just making sure that, you know, and part of the decision also was we knew this was the last episode right before we were going to have a little break over the holidays. America was going to have to wait for two months to find out what. happened. And so we also debated, does she say the word abortion in this episode, or do we wait till the next episode? And that we went back and forth, and I believe we even shot, we shot different

versions of it. And we decided, let's just take it right up to the line. And then we'll wait, because we wanted to have the full conversation. Yeah. In the next episode. We had not spend a month break after this episode. Yeah, we didn't come back until January. We didn't come back to January to find out about like this whole storyline with Randall and whether or not he was going to find out about his birth mother, what had happened to his birth mother, was she alive, was she dead? And, you know, all this stuff with, with Kate and Toby and the history with Mark. No, we made America wait for two months. Wow.

Yeah, okay. Wow. I know. Alain, I'm so glad that you remember this because I, we talk about this a lot that like four and five are for some reason just like super grainy to us. Like one, two, and three, we pretty much remember six is, it was a little more recent, but like four, seasons four and five just, they're surprises. They're a revelation to rewatch.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, of course, because, you know, I was joining the show. I started at four and five. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no. So, but it's really funny because I had, you know, I'm joining. So I was on four or five, six.

So I was there for the second half. I'm like the second half club. Yeah. And but for me, you know, you're stepping in and like, nobody takes you aside and says, this is how we make the show. Like, there's like a little bit of that, but you really hit the ground running. And so, you know, I was often feeling like I'm, you know,

in the writer's room. I'm on set with this incredible crew, with this incredible cast. And everybody is, like, really in the groove. And I just have to, like, pay very close attention, really, like, you know, see how this is being done and get up to speed as fast as possible because, you know, nobody sitting at home is like,

well, you know, I mean, it was his first episode or whatever. This was an episode, right? Like, there's an expectation of continuing. I like, you know, I didn't help make the show the number one show on TV, but at least I didn't help ruin it. It stayed. Go down. You kept it there.

That's true. What we're about to say? Timeline-wise, I know you are a novelist and a screenwriter. This wasn't your first TV writing job. Was it? It was. It was my first. It was.

That's amazing. Yeah. I hadn't. Yeah, no, I mean, I'd written movies before, novels, short stories. but I hadn't been in a TV writer's room. That's why, I mean, when I got the call, would you consider this? I really genuinely thought it was a bit of a long shot because I loved the show as a fan.

But just like, like, you know, the Golden State Warriors aren't going to call me to come play for them even though I'm a basketball fan. Like I just, you know, it seemed kind of unlikely. But, you know, but fortunately I hit it off with Isaac and Elizabeth and with Dan and kind of, you know, was able to join. And, you know, like, I really did genuinely, like, I loved the show. And, you know, you sit at home being like, well, you know, it was one of those shows where I didn't, as I said, like, I wasn't expecting to come right for it. But as soon as the door opened, I like showed up on the first day in the writer's room with a notebook full of ideas.

Of course you did. Ready to go. Yeah. And I was excited. And there was questions that I had that I had wondered as a viewer that I wanted answers and the opportunity to actually be at the table helping to figure out those answers was really exciting. But you know, you had that, like, in this episode, you know, Kevin is rehearsing for this movie. Right. Yes.

The sort of mercurial director, you know, Jordan Martin Foster. And, you know, there's this thing in that in the movie, or, you know, there's this thing, you know, they do the rehearsal, it doesn't go well. And they had this conversation afterwards about greatness and about, you know, this idea that, you know, that kind of like plays out in the past that Jack wants his sons to know he sees. greatness in them. And I love that there was a little bit of ambivalence there. Is Jack correct? Is his approach right? Is Rebecca's approach right? You know, yes, of course, like, he wants to inspire his kids, but when does that pressure become, like, create a host of other problems? Yeah, that's right there to see it through. And so I thought that there was an interesting kind of questioning it. Like, we often are like, you know, we often kind of come down on the side of,

yes, this was the right thing to do. And I like that there was a little bit of ambivalence in this episode about like, you know, is this actually working as a parent? You know, but part of, part of, you know, this episode was I had to decide as the writer, like, is Jordan Martin Foster, like, good at his job? Like, is he, like, he's really hard on Kevin and he's kind of like a dick. And for the record, for anybody who watches this episode, this is not how to get a great performance. Not at all.

No. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thanks for clarifying. I mean, it was funny. when we did this because I, you know, so many people in the crew up to and including Ken Olin were like, who is this based on because I've worked with this guy? Like, and, you know, like, everybody had a story about somebody. Even Ken had a story. And you were like, this is based on you, Ken.

You know, it was really, I mean, it is actually based on somebody that I worked with. I mean, in part, But, you know, one of the funny things is, like, they're actually doing, you know, they're actually doing, like, a scene. And I had to, like, make a decision about how good I think he has at his job. And I notice you guys have some pages in front of you. Yes. Yeah, what is this? Oh, we're about to do a poll. Why don't you turn it over?

What is? The glass eye. Written by Jordan. This is a rehearsal draft. So to give the audience a sense of how deep we go, because when we were shooting the rehearsal scene, they actually have. had to, like, read out a scene. We were going to see the script. You know, we liked to move the cameras around.

We didn't know how much of the script we were going to see. Ken Olin, who directed this episode, wanted to, like, you know, have the freedom that they could turn pages. If the audience, like, if we can see it on camera, if the audience is wily enough to freeze frame to go in close, we didn't want to break the illusion. So I literally wrote. You wrote a scene. Wow.

I had to write a four to five-page scene of the movie. So in case it appeared on screen. You have to write a title, and I love the title. The glass eye. It's so dumb. It's so delightful. I love it. So I don't know if you guys want to have a little experiment here,

but you guys want to do a cold livery? Incredible. Incredible. He's epic. Are you reading stage direction? I'll read stage direction. Okay, okay. Who's Jonas and who's sage?

I don't need to be sage just because it's written as a woman. You have to be sage. No, no, you're sage. You have to be Jones. No, no, no. I'm going to read stage directions. Okay. Let's read the stage directions.

Okay, let's bring it to life. You guys good? Yeah. Yeah. All right, Interior Police Station interview room day. Jonas opens the door, thumbing through messages on his cell. Sage sits at the table working hard to look unimpressed. He takes the chair on the other side of the table, puts away his cell, and finally looks at her, sizing up his new client.

You got yourself into some trouble. I didn't get myself into anything. Then why'd they call me? To be honest, I have. I have no idea. To be honest? Yeah. See, the thing is, when someone says to be honest or if I'm being honest or honestly,

that usually means they're about to lie to you. Sage is about to respond, but she stops and considers this. I guess I was lying. Or at least not being completely honest. Is there a difference? Well, you're the lawyer. You tell me. Jonas doesn't exactly smile, but his mouth wants to.

The thing is, I sit a question. across a lot of tables just like this from a lot of people just like you. Not like me. People like you at tables like this are almost always lying. But there are all kinds of lies. Lies of self-delusion, lies of self-importance, lies of self-preservation, even lies of self-sacrifice. Those are tricky because it's a deliberate lie for a greater truth. So, to be honest, I don't believe you.

To be honest, I don't trust you. To be honest, I know you're lying. Until you're ready to tell me the truth, to be honest, we're done here. Mandy, you're giving me everything that I could hope for more. Chris. And... Christopher. Let's...

So the scene goes on from there, obviously. I continued on, like, several pages. Dude, this is crazy what you have to do in order to make, oh, I love it. Is the name Jordan Martin Foster an amalgamation of other filmmakers? I just got obsessed with the idea that he has three first names and three last names. Oh, they're all right. They are both first and last names. You know, but I mean, one of the things that's really funny about this is I had to make a decision,

and so I'll throw it out to you. Yeah. Do you think he's a good writer-director based on these pages? I don't know what it is yet, you know what I mean? I will say, I don't think he's a good director simply by what you brought up, like, the way he's trying to elicit a quote-unquote great performance from Kevin. We were talking about, like, communication is everything from a director. It's like as an actor, as a collaborator, you want to hear, not that it's good or passable or whatnot, just that you're doing what the director wants or it's in line with what he's thinking or to just be scientific. and to give Kevin nothing is,

the line that you drop was like, you know, I'm trying to do it, but you just keep interrupting me. And my man says, I wish I didn't have to, like the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. And I was like, oh, bro, bro. Yeah, your heckles stand up. Like, oh, I don't like this. I would hurt you.

And this is the thing. I mean, you know, he makes the cardinal mistake, which he destroys trust immediately. Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's an interesting thing because, you know, we talked a lot about this. And so, you know, when I was writing these pages, it's like you do have to drill down. And I just like, how good do I think he is? Do I think he's, you know, and you're trying to like set that tone.

But it is interesting thing on a show like this because as in the writer's room, like we are pouring so much of our personal lives. I mean, we often joke that we saved tens of thousands of dollars in therapy just by working on this show. Yeah. But you know, you're also like you're putting, you know, like elements of your life. Like in this episode, there's, you know, I love the runner of Jack and Rebecca sleep training Kevin in the past. That was so much fun to write. As a side note, at one point, we talked for probably like 10 minutes.

We talked about like, should this just be the episode? Should we do a bottle episode, which is just like the two of them trapped in this room? Yeah. Like, you know, who's afraid of Virginia Woolf while the baby screams in the other room? And we ultimately decided that in the middle of COVID, America could not handle an hour of a screening baby on network television. That's good. That's good. You know, but that was like literally based on, you know, my experience with my wife, sleep training our first daughter.

And, you know, just like how that sound, what it does to you, to hear that sound of your child, like in distress in the next room and wanting to help them but not being sure of. comforting them is... Ultimately the right move, yeah. And it is hard. And Mandy, I love... I thought you brought like these little colors to Rebecca that we didn't... You often didn't get to play in that... You know, in that moment, I was just like, it was so delightful.

Oh, thanks. But, you know, as the writers, you're like taking something from your own life and then you hand it over to the rest of the room, right? And everybody contributes. And you hand it over to the cast. You handed over to the crew. And then eventually you handed over to the audience. And it's this fascinating experience of...

vulnerability, and yet at the same time, you are hiding behind all these layers of all these other professionals doing their very best to make it, you know, to make it as good as possible. Yeah. I would say what I'll say about these pages before because I don't want to get away from it. I think they fit very well with the director that we saw and that they are ambiguous. That's what I would call them. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, they are purposefully indirect. You know, and I think that him as a director was purposefully indirect.

Like, he seems like the kind of person that delights in keeping people on edge. At least my brother Kevin Pearson. And it's also the lesson, if Kevin is going to learn a lesson from this man, it means something different if he's the world's greatest director versus if he's a mediocre director. So it's almost better if we're not quite sure which it is. Yeah. because the lesson's more important.

Right. And like the story with Kate and Toby, we set all this up, but actually the payoff to this is the conversation he has in the car with Kate about the comment Randall made about his acting at the end of season four in that form.

And it's like, and then you're like, oh, actually, there was a moment where we were going to make this director. We were going to go in a slightly different director and he was going to be like a young, talented black director, like a Ryan Coogler. And it was going to be, and we talked about like, is that too much for Kevin, right? And we ultimately decided it was.

That would have been a lot. Yes, absolutely. I mean, these are the conversations you have in the room where you try stuff good and you decide how far you want to go. But I love that we were able to, you know, that you're watching it. And yes, it is about all the things it seems that it's about. But then when you have that conversation with Kate, there's actually a deeper layer that maybe the audience didn't put together.

And then you're like, okay. Just reference it. This isn't because we actually missed that in recapping the episode. Kevin says something about, he's like, I just got to make sure I'm not so tired. Right? And Kate Clocks and he's like, isn't that the same word that Randall used when he was describing your acting? He's like, I'm not even talking about that right now. But clearly he is.

But each of them, like, and Kevin and 503 also makes mentions, like, I got all this stuff that I'm working through the stuff with my brother that I haven't even addressed yet. Like two episodes in a row. Like, even just four episodes in a row, we have a bit of a cold war that has been transpiring between these brothers where they decide that they are in each other's lives and a part of it, but like even in the text messages that they think they're gonna be bigger and it just winds up being like heard the news, congrats,

and wants to say something bigger and it just turns out to be thanks. Like, Randall hasn't talked about it, but we've heard Kevin make mention of it a couple of times now that like, I got stuff with my brother that I'm still don't know exactly how to work through. Yeah. And we, in the room, we were constantly like, you know, we love these characters.

And so, you know, you, but, you know, part of writing is when you love a character, you have to torture them. Yeah. So that, you know, like, that's how you, how they, how they, how the audience finds out who they really are is when you like, you know, when you torture them. But we were constantly like, we just want these two guys to come to make up. But, you know, it was so fascinating to see what came out of them, but keeping them apart. Yeah, man. It was fun. And then, of course, this was also the episode where we did the viral video.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that was a tough one because those videos are hard to, it's hard to get a viral moment right. Yeah. And I don't know if you remember. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the recap. I don't know if you remember this, Randall, or sorry, Randall. I don't know if you remember this Sterling.

I answered all of them. We shot it. And then we shot it again. We messed it up. Oh, yeah. Oh, he remembers. And we had to shoot it again. I do.

And it was like, we were under like this intense, time pressure, as I mentioned. And it was so like, I remember just being like so frustrated. You mentioned it a couple episodes ago because a man prepares a certain way to go shirtless on television. And then they spring this on you. Then they sprung it on me that I had to reshoot it. Yeah.

Oh, boy. Yeah. And it's like, you know, as the, I mean, it's because, you know, obviously you guys know, like what a bunch of pros our crew were. And it's like, everybody was like so mortified that we got this. Do you remember what had happened? Why? Why did you have to reshoot it?

Like something happened with the film. I know exactly what happened. Stowing was too fat in the first one, right? Come on. Everybody said, he can do better. No. We know what happened was we were, we wanted to get, we, the way we shot it was with an actual webcam streaming it.

Yeah. And we had so, like, I can't even tell you how many conversations we had about whether the webcam footage would be broadcast quality. Okay. And we were assured it would be. And it was not. It was, it was like, we just like, it was not usable. So we ended up reshoot.

it with a proper camera and then doing a treatment on it. And but you know, and so it was, so it was one of those things where also because of the, I mean, it was really a victim of how tight we were. Remember, 11 days. Yeah. Like we were very tight. And so it was just one of those things. And the crew was exhausted.

And, you know, you were an incredibly, you were a real pro Sterling for coming back and doing it again because it's always hard. I asked a lot of questions. I was like, what's happening? Yep. I did this before. As you should.

Yeah. This is, I guess that's when we all almost lost Yasu, huh? Yeah. Yeah, we almost had to let him go. Maybe. But I will tell you, you know, we talked a lot about it because getting a viral video right is really hard.

You see them on TV all the time and that you're like, that would never go viral. And, you know, it was interesting because it's real, it's a comedy set piece. We don't really always do comedy. We don't really do that on this show that often. So it had to be designed in a certain way. But I will just, as a personal story, you know, that was a tough time in the world. world. I know my wife was getting really like how long COVID was stretching out and the effects it was having on our kids. She was like in a really like a down headspace. And it was really rough.

And I remember we sat down and watched this episode when it aired. And when Randall started stripping on camera, she started laughing so hard. I hadn't heard her laugh like that in like I felt like months. And she was just like crying with laughter. And I was like, This is why I wrote that scene was to watch my wife, who had been having a bit of a rough patch, like, have that. And I heard from so many people. I got so many messages just like, I needed that laughter so hard. And it was like, it was a big,

it was actually like a big stretch for us because we didn't usually go that hard on the comedy. Yeah. And I heard from so many people what a, like, relief that moment was. And of course, like all the other big moments in this episode, there's the payoff at the end where it turns out to be the thing that hooks into his discovery of Laurel. But just knowing that people had that kind of sense of relief and that sense of, you know, just like everybody, even if we were all potted off in our homes, that everybody

was united for just a minute and laughter kind of made it feel very worthwhile. I love that. Here, here. You are such a delight to talk to. I feel like if you're ever out in Los Angeles and we can chat with you for like a whole episode. It would, there's just so much to talk about. You're so insightful. Do you even want to come back to do us anywhere? I don't blame you.

I don't blame you. Stay put. No, no. I have to come down for work often. We'll ask you again in February. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. When it's frigid and you want a break and you're in L.A., well, let us know next time you're in L.A.

You can pop in and we can have a full. And likewise, if any of you're shooting up in Toronto and you want to somebody to take you up for dinner. I'll be up for the film festival. I look you up. man, that would be fun. I'd be delighted. Is there anything that you're working on at present

that you want to tout and let people know about? Yeah, I mean, like, sadly, I have to be a little bit coy, but I have, I'm writing a movie for, I'm writing a big kind of sci-fi movie for one of the studios based on a short story of mine. Yeah, we like to call them films. They're films. A big film.

Thank you. Thank you. It's going to be a Jordan Martin Foster joint. And I'm actually, you know, I mean, not to make it too, you know, like too personally autobiographical. I'm actually gearing up to direct my first feature. Nice. And so, yeah, so it's based on one of my scripts,

and we are just kind of, you know, putting it all together to shoot the summer. You'll let us know when casting starts? This was actually, sorry, I just, so didn't they tell you this was the casting meeting? Oh, wow. That call, read was to audition, Sally. And two of us got the job. Yeah. Two out of three of you got the job.

You guys have fun. The movie is called the glass eye. That would be. That would be amazing. That would be the coolest story ever. That would be like, you know, that we actually, like, let's actually make the movie. Sadly, for the fans, they don't get season seven, but they do get the glass eye. They get the glass eye, what you've been waiting for.

They get the glass eye to get Hill. Backside of an Egg. What was the play? The play, the backside of the play. Oh, yeah. And the M. Night Chamelon movie Stairs to Nowhere. I feel like the titles always give me such joy.

And the cruise and the cruise alternate title for the war movie, War Lama. That's right. And they had War Lama shirts, didn't they? Oh, my goodness. Anyway. I'm down. Let's make them all. Okay, great.

Thank you so much. Thanks, Lan. Thank you so much. Friggin. Oh, my God. My pleasure. I've really, I've been enjoying the podcast so much. I've been listening.

Like, for me, because I missed the first three seasons, actually hearing you guys talk about the first three seasons, was so much fun. Oh, thanks so much. Because it's like you're telling all these stories about the experience. I wasn't there. I was just watching the show.

And then obviously once you've caught up to season four, you know, there's obviously the stuff I was involved in it. Mandy, I texted you this. Like it's so, it gives me so much joy because you guys have the same debates in that room that we had in the writing. That's so interesting. Like I'm constantly hearing you guys debating

like, you know, like I remember when you guys talked about 408, which was my first episode on the show. You guys are talking about like avocado gate. And like did, like, you're like, you know, and all three, I mean, this whole show is about a bunch of characters who carry about each other very deeply trying to do the right thing. Yeah. In situations where the right thing isn't always clear what it is. And so, and so listening to you guys debate the same, you're having the same kinds of like

really thoughtful, you know, emotionally literate debates that we were trying to have in the room when we were figuring out what to happen is, is a lot of fun. So anyways, as both a participant and a fan of the show, thank you for it. It's so much fun. Thanks, Lynn. That means a lot. Thank you. Thank you for your time, too.

We appreciate it. Great to see you. Good to see you guys, too. Enjoy it, you guys. Take care, brother. That was great. Dude, that was awesome. One of the best guests we've ever had in my opinion.

He was wonderful. Like, it's so interesting to come in like halfway through and like sort of not be a part of the first half, but sort of help to finish it off. But so insightful. I really meant that. I was like, if you're here, I just feel like he'd be a wonderful. He had so much to say he had such great memories of things that I'm like, wow, I feel like we've had other writers here. Not as good?

Not as good. No, no, I feel like we've had other writers. Well, we only have Isaac and Elizabeth in person, but like to bring more writers. We need to bring more writers in because I just, I feel like they are the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hands down. They shed beautiful light on things. Share the show, like, subscribe, comment, send us a message at SpeakPipe.

dot com slash that was us or that was us at gmail that was us pod at gmail.com yeah talk to us we'll talk to you that was us baby here we go that was us is filmed at rabbit grin studios and produced by rabbit grin productions music by taylor goldsmith and griffing goldsmith da da da da da da da da da da um da um that was us