That Was Us - Kevin and Madison Call Off Their Wedding | "The Adirondacks" with Chris Geere (516)

Episode Date: June 30, 2026

This week on That Was Us, we’re breaking down This Is Us Season 5, Episode 16: “The Adirondacks,” with special guest Chris Geere AKA Phillip! What begins as Kevin and Madison’s wedding day quickly becomes one of the most emotional turning points of the series, as long-buried fears, hard truths, and questions about what love really means come to the surface. As some relationships move forward, others are forced to confront whether love alone is enough. In this episode, the hosts chat about: * The realities of co-parenting and finding a path forward after a relationship changes * The shocking flash-forward that reveals Kate’s future husband * And a special interview with Chris Geere, who joins the podcast to discuss playing Phillip, navigating fan reactions, joining This Is Us during COVID, and learning that his character would eventually change the course of Kate’s story They also break down the episode, including: * Madison’s childhood flashbacks and the experiences that shaped her self-worth * Madison asking Kevin the question he can’t answer: “Are you in love with me?” * Toby accepting a job that will take him away from home several days a week * Phillip refusing Kate’s resignation and encouraging her to continue pursuing her passion for teaching * Deja learning about Malik’s college acceptances—including Harvard—and what it could mean for their future * Beth helping Tess alter her bridesmaid dress so she can feel more comfortable being herself * Rebecca finally apologizing to Randall for keeping his birth parents from him * Rebecca asking Kevin to build the house Jack always dreamed of building for the family * The unforgettable final flash-forward revealing Kate and Phillip’s wedding, Randall’s rising political future, and the next chapter for the Pearson family And a friendly reminder, you can catch new episodes of That Was Us every Monday, a day early, exclusively on Hulu. Available on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts on Tuesdays like usual! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to https://Quince.com/twu for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a headgum podcast. On today's episode of That Was Us, we are diving into season five, episode 16, the Adirondacks. In this season five finale, as Kevin and Madison's wedding day arrives, long-buried doubts, family truths, and questions about what love really looks like come to the surface. While some relationships grow stronger, others are forced to confront whether love alone is really enough. What up, gang? I hated everything about this episode. Are you finishing a cookie over there? I was looking at my heart.

Hey, guys. Yeah, Mandy got to kicking off the intro thinking that we were ready. Meanwhile, I'm like, oh, God. Guys, we just watched this episode. Yeah. I watched it last night. Season five. Me too. Me too.

Like, there's this thing that happens at the end of the episode sometimes. It's very sad. And I guess, like, maybe the sadness is, something that leaves people on the hook for to see like, how do you. This is us. It's like, enjoy your hiatus. Have a great summer. Have a good summer.

We'll see you next fall. And here's the thing, like the whole time I'm watching it, because I know what's going to happen. And I'm sort of finding myself, I was like, oh, could it have gone another way? Could it, is there any way that this could have been? But I think it had to be what it has to be. Like drama requires conflict, right? You know, and here with it.

And sometimes people would be like, oh, I wish they would just. get along. And you say that, but then it would be a boring show. It would be. You know? It would be. Then it just becomes, I don't know, HGTV. But there is something about, like, so we get some backstory in this episode, and we'll go through it all in one time, but like, we have a couple of flashbacks for Madison, right? That sort of like give her... Eluminate a bit of a... The bigger picture as to her relationship with her parents. Yeah, because there's a mom and a dad, and then there's also... an ex-boyfriend.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. We see the mom leaving in one flashback. See the mom leaving. We see the dad telling Madison, like, don't be picky with, you know, like, are you going to the school dance? Like, just go with whoever's, yeah, whoever wants to take you. Yeah.

Go in that direction. And then the ex-boyfriend kind of breaking up with her and being like, we're really just meant to be friends and her feeling otherwise. It's just like rejection. After rejection, after rejection. Of like, and the story being, you are not good enough. You have no value to all three of these people. This just continues to be the story that I'm sure she tells herself.

And it sort of coincides with her wedding day, with like what should be the most, you know, important day of her life thus far, minus probably having the children. The children. But joyful, yeah. Yeah. And I think it's sort of illuminating the doubts, the deep-seated doubts.

Yeah. Yeah. That a lesser-evolved human would probably not think to have. Yeah. And it just made me not to, I mean, sorry, we're like taking off now with a bullet, but like it made me really realize

and think back to the evolution of this character in particular. And we even see in this particular episode, so the day this ex-boyfriend and this flashback breaks up with her, she immediately starts binging, going on like a binge. And then it sort of leads her into being in this recovery group for overeaters anonymous or whatever we're saying. Yep. Where she ends up meeting Kate.

And to think back on who that woman was when we first met her in the pilot and how we all kind of like rolled her eyes as the collective. in the room did. Like, what is this woman have any business doing in this room with us? To where she is in this particular episode is really astounding. And as a testament to Kate as an actress and the writing and where they've sort of allowed this character to grow that we all, you know, love her and are rooting for her and by extension are rooting for her and Kevin and their family to sort of see themselves into this next chapter of their lives. It's just like, Like, wow, I'm not sure that Dan necessarily knew where this character was going at the beginning of the show.

But it's like, but we've all, we're all along for the ride. And I just think they've done such a, they did such a tremendous job of making us really care for and root for this woman and see ourselves to a certain extent in her as well. Agreed. Agreed. First of all, I'd love that, you know, Dan gave his wife something to do. It's very cool. Hell yeah. And she like steps up to the plate in such a major way.

She's so great in the show. She does wonderfully. I just found myself sort of like experiencing the show from her perspective, right? Because normally I'm with the Pearson's and what they're going through. And of course, there's things that we'll have to talk about there. And obviously my brother, who I love and want to see flourish and rise. But this was really her story because it was told from her perspective, I think. And appropriately so because we've been clocking this whole season.

Anytime he talks about Madison, he talks about the love he has for the life that they've created, for this family that they're building, for all these things, but it's never about her. Right, and that's what makes it so uncomfortable. Yeah. From the gig, because we've seen it coming for the last few episodes.

And like I said, I hated everything about this episode. At every turn, I'm just like, no, I did none of this. I don't like any of this. I don't like how any of this. of this feels. Literally none of this feel. Usually, in this is a, one of it feels good. Something feels good.

And just nothing in this episode feels good. Now, I'm going through my purse, like an old grandmother, looking for my energy. And the interesting part, we see, the episode is kicked off with Justin practicing some kind of speech. Yeah. Right? In front of a mirror.

From the princess bride. Yeah. marriage, which I've presided over exactly one wedding and did that bit. Did you really? Yeah, back in the early odds. I've done one wedding. But we see him preparing this speech. And then early on in the episode, we also see Madison saying no movie quotes, no jokes.

Yeah, Improv Kevin is not invited. Correct. Improv Kevin is not invited as they are beginning to plan this day. So I was like, oh, he is defying? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He's defying her. Yeah.

Her wishes. He's going out on a limb. And it's also just to him keeping, it clearly seems like he's keeping things at arm's length. Yeah. With comedy again. Sure. The same way he did in the previous episode when they asked about the, where they see each other. Yeah.

Yeah. A trick question. Yeah. I never want to grow old. She knows that about me. She knows that about me because we are in love with the idea of a family. Yeah. Yeah.

So, okay, let's just go right to the heart of it. We'll do Kevin Madison and then we'll backtrack through other things. Let me see. Jack putting the board. No, that's not. Kevin is freaking out about all the wedding details. All the details. He's sort of like the groomzilla.

He wants everything to be perfect. Uncle Nikki is there documenting everything with the iPad. He's ridiculous. With a full-size iPad. With a full-size iPad. It's like, you give the old man some technology. He's like, stop. We have a videographer and he's like, no, no, you're going to want this.

You're going to want this. Every little detail. Exactly. I even love right in that scene, too, at the very end of it, Madison sort of gives him a cutsy chance to, like, duck out. You know what she says something about all the women in my family wound up with Veracose veins. And da-da-da-da-da-da. So, he's like, no, I'm sticking around, that sort of thing. I gave Rachel that chance.

We had a conversation before we got married about. like the reality. Was it a cutesy or was it like? No, it was real. It was real. It was, well, it was a real like, I have full, come to full terms with what the life of an actor is going to be like. Sure.

And so if somebody else is going to participate in that, like. You need to be fully aware. Fully aware. Yeah. Feast, famine. Yeah. Ups, downs, in town, out of town. Me either.

Over town, you know, all these things. And, yeah. My wife took, the only thing I remember saying to me, we were already married. No, no, we weren't. Too late. No, we weren't married. But she talked to me about alternate streams of income. Like she made it, like after I had tested for five pilots in L.A., and she's like, you may want to think about alternate streams of income.

And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, you know, you got to find a way to make money. I was like, I'm going to make money through acting. And she's like, yeah, but it doesn't seem like it's working out for you. I said, I just tested for five pilots. And she's like, yeah, but she didn't book any. And that's a silver lining and a gray cloud. coming together to marry each other.

A silver lining and a gray cloud. It worked out. It did work out. So yeah, how did it, how did, what did you do for money? I've never done anything other than. Not going to. I've never done anything other than. So I guess I'll just do movies.

You mean, no choice. You mean, you mean, I guess I'll start a voiceover career. They, Sully, and John made a joke. People have been asking about clips from the roast. Once I get it from the videographer, I'll try to put something out there, right? But one of the jokes that they made with me was that, like, you know, their supporting actors, they only refer, I only refer to them by their numbers, six and eight, et cetera.

And they're like, you know, Sterling has no idea what that's like. Oh, it's like the roles that you do in movies. That was a really good job. That was a good job. Thank you. Thank you, sir. It's a bit of inside baseball. those for those who aren't in the industry,

film and television are two totally different, can be two totally different worlds. And to be a lead in both worlds is, which you are, of course. I'm not, but I'm back one day. No, you are. What do you mean? I mean, the joke, well, you're, but you're,

let's put it this way, your Oscar nomination was for supporting a category. So, sit down. Anyway, anyway. Let's keep going here. So things aren't, you know, going, oh, no, he's nervous. He just wants everything to go perfectly or what have you. They wind up going to the venue.

He bought the whole thing out. Uncle Nicky's like, how rich are you? He's like, it's easier this way in the middle of COVID. And it does make you wonder like, how rich is this guy? He's doing well for himself, right? The family gets there. I kind of have to do this. I know.

Like you have to like get in there with everybody. It's all, our show is all connected. I don't want to talk about any of it. Let's talk about something else. What other shows are we talk about? You love in. Widows Bay. Widows Bay.

I mean, y'all got to get on the train. All right, we'll get on it. Get on the Widows Bay train. You know what? Let's just stop doing this and watch the first episode. Oh my God. Because I hate this episode. Where you stop saying that?

What's your hot take, Chris? Go for it. I'm just saying. No, no, go with your hot take. There's, I don't feel, I don't like, none of this makes me feel good. Every scene in this, in this episode, it's like, no. And as we get to the end of this episode, it's just, it's just the, we're getting too close to things being over.

Oh, is that maybe what it is? That's part of it. That is part of it. There is, okay, hold on. There's a scene that makes me feel good. I'm going to tell you about it, but it's not in this storyline. So I just want to go through this. It's probably not even in this episode.

It is in this episode. God bless America. The Pearson's arrived from the East Coast. Pearson's arrived from the East Coast. Randall, Beth, the girls. Yes, Miguel. Well, you guys are already on the West Coast. Yeah.

But we all get to the venue together. Kev's there. He's very excited for things to go a certain way. Mom and Randall have a little bit of something because mom wants to talk to Randall about his trip to New Orleans. Randall's like, anytime you want to talk about it, it's cool. But he's not rushing. into it, and she's like, won't let them go on this particular.

In the last episode, Beth says, if you want to know about his trip, just ask. Just ask him. Just ask them, right? So we get to outside. Because the altar is collapsed. The altar has collapsed. The wedding planet comes in. We got a little bit of a problem.

Now, the altar was designed by Madison. This was sort of her thing. It's falling apart. They're trying to do what they can to fix it. So the boys come in through. You got Nikki. You got Miguel. You got Tobias.

You got Randall. Everyone's contributing in their own life. Everybody's outside contributing and doing this thing. I thought this scene was cute. It was cute. Okay. Not often do we get to see these five gentlemen together in this capacity. It's very nice.

And these days, I will say, the shooting of it was a lot of fun because we ended up at these venues that are beautiful and we're just hanging out in these beautiful places all day long. And it's Ken with his head in his hands. Just like so stressed out about everything. Have you guys ever seen Ken? his like diagrams

of like stick figures yeah yeah he has like the shot list with like the stick figures it's the cutest thing

in the world he's like a he's like a second grader who's trying to coach NFL football yeah he's like

then you're gonna go here and then you'll go there stick figure A with like arrows and X's and yeah so we're out there doing this thing we get two

tombstone references one in this one. And I can tell. These are usually my favorite things. Like, Randall had to do Rain Man. I was like, I'm going to watch Rain Man. Did you watch a little bit of Tombstone just to prime? You're good.

It lives in you. Tombstone, heat, get ready for this, curveball. The Lion King. Oh, okay. You know them all. Were the three movies in my, like, college apartment, room in four, that were just on a loop. Wow.

Those three. On a loop. The Lion King got thrown in like pretty regularly. Yeah, not. Because I just can't wait to be king. But Tombstone, we used to be able to do, I used to be able to do that whole whole movie front to back. Could you read? So you didn't need to rewatch it for this particular scene.

Okay. I knew exactly. And a hot take, Val Kilmer in Tombstone, greatest film performance of all times. by any actor. That's a very hot take. Yeah. It's not true. I haven't seen it, so I don't know.

Oh, no, no. You got to see this one. This is one that you have to see because it's not even about pop culture or anything. He's right. It is a great performance. I will say greatest performance, that's impossible. For a long time, the one that inspired me to want to be an actor, if I could do what Richard Burton did and who's afraid of Virginia Woolf.

Wolf. Yeah. Then I was like, then I can have a career. Well, that's the educated man's choice. Val Kilmer in Tombstone. I'm your Huckleberry. I'm your Huckleberry. He's great.

The college man's choice. When he does this thing, because there's people, everybody wants to, like, challenge him because he's like the fastest gun in the West and he's like Doc Holiday, but he's always drugged. What's, is it? Is it opium? He's drunk. He's high on opium.

He's drunk. He's a famous doctor. Yeah. And he is. dying of leukemia. He dying of leukemia. So he's kind of waned and pale and he's always just sort of like, you know, misty was sweating and everything. And one time he like takes like a cup, it's like a mug and he starts like spinning it like he's like about the fights. And it's it's fucking awesome. It's fucking awesome. Wow. So you win now? I'm in.

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Because Kev has some experience with that. Kev's like it didn't go great for me, wound up divorcing my wife, etc. So that's not good. He's like, okay, I won't bring it up now because you know, you got other things to deal with, even though you did. Not something I'm going to talk to you about on your wedding day. There's a little bit of tension between Miguel and Nikki. Because he's like, I normally hire people to do this stuff now. That was really good line.

He's like, he's like, yeah, when I'm renovating my Nomadland trailer, I'll ask your advice, Nicky. I mean, talk about a reference that 10 years from now, nobody's going to understand. Totally. And I love that Nikki was like, what's Nomadland? That's the hottest movie that was out at that month. Well, because it was a... It was a Oscar.

Yeah. And it involved... Trailer. The trailers. People who lived in trailers. It was... It's very specific reference. It is a specific reference, but it did work for them.

Keff said so too, he said, you'd actually find the movie quite funny, right? You find the joke funny. Randall comes running in, his intent and keep him in his brother from getting too much son because he knows what can happen to white people if they do. He was running around with his umbrella, et cetera. Yeah. Nikki had a gift for... Kevin.

It was too Adirondon. Cheers. You're going to talk about, and he's like, you have a U-Haul because, yeah, this is the only way to get it back. Yeah. Yeah. You're creating work for the people. Yeah. On their wedding day, he's like, oh, and can you tip the guys?

Because I don't have any cats. Yeah. Yeah, really good. And Kevin was like, I need air. And they're like, you're outside. He's like, no, I need indoor. I need inside air. Randall quit following me.

Yeah, that was funny. Things are not going according to plan, right? But, like, that's the sort of the external manifestation of what's sort of happening. internally from Madison, because we already talked about the flashbacks, the dad, are the mom leaving? We didn't know her mom was British, sort of to the man are born,

and she says, I simply can't deal with it anymore. I've tried everything that I can, and I'm sorry. I hope you find a better man than I did. I hope you find a better man than I did. Okay, okay, mom. Right? Dad, the next thing we see from him is just saying like, look, why are you being picky about this whole prompt thing?

Just be happy that you found somebody who wants to go with you, just do your thing. And each time we cut back to this woman, in her wedding dress, contemplating this next huge step in her life, you're like, am I doing the right thing? Filing through her core memories. Then we go to the boyfriend who's like, listen, I don't see it going any further.

And she tries to sort of argue with him. And he's like, hey, after I said what I just said, why would you even try? Like, and I actually found that an act of generosity. Yeah. And a very strange way. He's like saying, I don't want to be with you. I don't see where it's going to go.

And if you're going to keep fighting, the end of the conversation. Right. Which is the coldest shutdown I've seen in a long time. It is, but let me. He's like, wait a minute. Why are we still talking? It was like, really?

It was cold, but it also like there was a sort of, you know, generous spirit to it. Of course, but it was like the WWE of like, no, no, no, I just broke up with you. Yeah. That is over. That's it. Okay. Here's a question to you from that thing. Because I was thinking about this, I was watching it.

Number one, have you broken up with someone? And if you've broken up with someone, do you feel like you did it in a kind way? Yes and no. You've done both. Yeah. You've done both. Well, now tell me, the one that you thought was kind,

tell me what that entailed. I mean, I think I've talked about it on here where a girl that I was dating, we both kind of looked at each other and we're like, at the same time, we're like, nah. Right? we were both just like we're just are we just friends and and she was like

I think so okay so it's mutual it was okay it was I think that the like maybe two times I've done it in my life it wasn't mutual but I tried to do as much of the this isn't personal this is just a certain I'm in in my life

like just trying to to keep the onus on you. The optics on this aren't good. I do not like confrontation at all. So I'm like, how can I? Do you do it in person? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Jesus. I don't know. I wasn't there. Yes, Chris. I wasn't there. Have you? That's what we find out I was. Here's the better. Did you do it in person? No, Chris. I texted you. Here's the better question. I'm sorry, Chris. Here's the better question. Have you ever been broken up with kindly? No. See, that's the thing. The experience of the person who's being I don't think it's possible.

That's what I was, that's what I'm trying to get to is like, yeah. I thought that I've been tried to be kind before, but I don't know if the person who was being broken up with experienced it that way. Yeah. I broke up, I tried to break up kindly with my, the last girlfriend I had in high school.

I think I told you this too, where it's like, I, you know, we're going off to college. Yeah. What are we gonna, you know? Yeah. Let's, let's stop. Let's break this off here while it's still, why we, well, it's still good.

and then we ended up going to the same college. They're like, well, showed up right for, oh, you didn't know. Oh, hi. Nobody had accepted things yet. Like, we hadn't, and it was like, okay, same college. Well, Godspeed, good luck. Oh, dear.

All right. Four years. Four years, okay. So I've been broken up with and I've broken up. And I think I've tried to be. kind, but I don't know if it was ever received that way. And I think the time that I was broken up with, like, it was a situation where the woman stopped talking to me.

And I had to actually say, like, I think you're no longer interested in this relationship, but having a tough time articulating it. And she goes, yeah. And I was like, I would rather you actually just said something than just withdrawing all your physical and emotional presence. But technically, you broke up with you. Yeah, and I didn't like it. No, that sounds awful.

I didn't like it at all. That sounds like the worst version. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's just my quick tangent. I'm curious. So after that, and like you said, we see the segue into her meeting Kate, going to Overeaters, Anonymous, et cetera. But I think that was the catalyst that sort of led her to go and confront her fiancé.

And she really just sits him down. And he's like, whoa, well, she comes into her. Oh, no, she comes into his room. Yeah, and he's like, am I supposed to be singing you in your wedding dress? Yeah. She basically... Throws it down. Do you...

Are you in love with me? Are you in love with me? The distinction. The distinction we've talked about. Yeah. Right? Not do you love me? Not do you love the idea of this family?

Yeah. And that's basically he goes on to say all of the different iterations except. He kind of deflects and talks about how much he loves their family. Yeah. And she's like, you know, I have fallen in love with you. I have fallen in love with you. And, you know, she also tells him that, like, somehow she's just gone through her life gratefully accepting whatever scraps that anybody wants to throw her way.

Yes, it was a good line. Yeah, yeah. She's gone through life gratefully accepting whatever scraps anyone would give her. Yeah. And basically how easy it would be because his family has given her the first, like, semblance of a family that she's ever really had in her life. Yeah. Yep.

And you can just tell where this is going. And the whole time I'm watching the scene, I'm going, I know he doesn't feel this way about her, but I was still hoping that he could find a way to do it. Yeah. I was still hoping that he could be like, that's crazy. Of course I'm in love with you. Yeah. Like I, and he just couldn't.

And he was trying to explain it away and trying to rationalize how beautiful their life was. and this family that they've made, and he's like, it will grow, it can grow. And that's on the writers. I'm putting that on the writers. Because they could have made him in love with her. Here's the thing. God damn it.

Here's the thing. I know, but it's better. I'm going to say this. It's better that he's not. It is better in this particular case. I think about this with regards to truth and kindness and when those two things are in concert with one another and when they're not.

where truth means like there needs to be a certain cruelty. I actually found what he was saying to be the kindest, most truthful version. And I was very thankful that he didn't lie to get her to do something that she felt was not right. Yeah, that would have been deceptive. That would have been the recipe for disaster, right? Yeah. Because I think back to this, we had a situation that you guys know about where, someone in our circle from this show got, did not get married, but was going to.

And I think about like how heartbreaking that was, but I was like, I'm so happy it happened before the vows were exchanged. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like it's, and it sucks and it's awful. And like even Kevin saying, please don't do this. Like, I'll make it work. I will soldier my way through this thing.

Don't make me say something that's not true. Like, we'll find it. Right. Right. I've heard people say that the, that the, you know, whatever they say, that 50, 50% of marriages end in divorce and end within, you know, the first year of marriage. Yeah. That those people know.

The minute they're walking down the aisle. Before. Well before, yeah. Well before. But it's too embarrassing. It's too inconvenient. It's too scary to like, you've already invited people. You've already booked things.

You've already, like, people are here. In this case, everyone's here. Yeah. So the, the braver. of this character. The bravery, and I texted Kate as well. I was just like, you guys absolutely destroyed me in that scene. They both were so exceptional.

It's such a special moment. And like it was so simple. It was so present. And I think the juxtaposition of like wanting this for her and for him, for them, for their family. Like not letting that override. the truth of the moment, which you're right, was super generous of Kevin in a way of like, and he says as much to his mom after he's like, I couldn't lie to her. Right.

I could not lie to her. And it's like, that's a stand-up human. Absolutely. And it's a stand-up human from her perspective as well going, not going through with it. Right. As she says as much, like, it could have been so easy just to walk into this life that like miraculously was sort of just laid in front of me. And he's so easy to fall in love with.

But she's like, basically, thank you. You were the one that has helped me realize my own value. There you go. And what I want and what I deserve. And I deserve for someone to be in love with me. And she does. And, you know, we do see next season, like she does eventually find that. We don't know their story.

Boyler. Jesus. Whatever. Like, I'm not, I'm not, she does end up somewhere with someone who clearly was in love with her, is in love with her. And she has that. And it's like, yes, that is truly what everybody deserves. I'm also, in terms of the show, like, I find none of us are in this boat and none of us hopefully never will be. I think co-parenting and not being in the same household seems like one of the trickiest things.

that exists in the world. And I think that, like, it's nice to see an example of, like, I think these guys can pull it off successfully. There's love there. There's no bitterness underneath it or whatnot because the people that suffer in the situation are probably the kids more than anybody else. Like, when I see it, when I see people have to do it,

and there's apps that you have to use to make sure that, like, you know, the lawyers know that I said this on this day and da-da-da-da, it all gets recorded and switched over. shit ain't easy. That doesn't sound fun at all. So I'm wishing them the best and I'm wishing all of us the best. That's all to anybody.

No, no, no, no. So that's the culmination of that. Is Madison understanding and standing on business with regards to her own worth and saying, you know what, maybe this is not our path? We'll go back a little bit. Let's go Cotoby-wise. They're getting ready to go to the wedding. It's all excited.

Toby's also excited to share some. Good news. Got a job offer. Got that motherfucking job offer. Yeah, gonna be gone 50% of the time. I'm gone. Three of the five days. Three out of the five days, right?

And there's a little bit of a pause on Kate's being like, ooh, you know, I'm not sure. And you're like, listen, I need the job. And you're like, well, we've been making it work, you know, we've been making it. You're like, no, no, no, no. It's beyond just the money. I need the job. I need this job. Yeah.

I mean, I like our kids. but. She was like, let me digest that for a second. I like our, I love our kids, but. I mean our messed up children

are fine and all, but daddy needs some worky time. If you catch my drift. Was it tough for you having it come out of your mouth? Yes. Especially as like a new, new parent.

Yeah. I was always hard to deliver it with a straight face. What do you think? I mean, I like our kids, but. Listen, is it, is it an, I get that you have a specific, it's not a but, it's an and.

And, it's understandable. Sure. Sure. A hundred percent. Kids are annoying as shit. You know what I mean. No, that's not it. You know what I mean.

You know. You tell the people. Don't try to incriminate me on this podcast. This is not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is, and Ryan and I have this conversation all the time. both love being parents, both love our children. Yes.

And there are still other things that we wish to contribute to in life that give us fulfillment as well. That's right. Yeah. It's important. That's what I think to buy us. That's right. That's all he was saying, Kate.

God damn it. It is important to honor that as well. Yes. It makes you a better person and a better parent and better everything. Honor and cherish. Yeah. Until death do us part. Kate.

It's the like direct eye contacted to the camera that really gets me. Just evil Krasinski the camera. Yeah, exactly. Kate. At this point then, so she, after this, she calls up Philip and says like, I'm going to withdraw my, well, I'm going to quit. My husband's about to take a job and we're going to need daycare, going to be at home, etc. And he's like, you know what? I really didn't want to hire you for this job, right?

I was very much against it. But it turns out you're really good at it. You're really good at it. And the students love you. You're talented. You know what I'm saying? And so you know what? My answer is no. Yeah. Resignation rejected. And once in a while, your jokes are kind of funny. That's right. Yeah. But can you really do that? Can you reject a resignation? I've seen it on TV a couple of times. On TV? TV loves it. TV loves it. I'm like, is that a real thing?

Because can someone just come back and go, no, but I'm resigning? They can, but it does give her a moment. It does give her a moment. Don't you understand how the world works now? I never got a resignation. It does give her a moment to reconsider. Sure. Of course, that is the idea.

Which is basically all of that easy. I unresign you. You don't resign. You don't resign until, until. I say you resign. You know who else says that is Justin Hartley? That's yes. And yes. It's one of the many things they have in common.

Dead. Oh, dead. He does have to watch it. It's just ahead, Justin. Oh, man. Better be watching. Hope you're watching early on Hulu. Come on. Day early on Hulu, folks. I know this used to be an audio format, but get into 2026.

We're on bid you, baby. I cannot. Truly cannot. So then there is the conversation between the two of them. But is it precipitated before, does Kate have a flashback? Oh, she has a flashback to the wedding, right? To your wedding and just sort of like the exchanging of vows. Yeah.

And that sort of thing. Me with food poisoning. Yeah. I forgot that. I'm a pale Toby in those scenes. I spent all day in the fetal position in my trailer. All right, you're up. In that suit, in that suit.

Unfurling. Do you remember what she ate? I don't. It was something from the breakfast. Okay. From the breakfast truck. Food poisoning is the worst. Try it in a fat suit.

It's worse? Try getting to the restroom real quick in a fat suit. And a taxi. And a tuxedo. And in a trailer and in a canyon. With no reception. Yeah, with no reception. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that happened to you. He's a, it's not easy being green. Not easy being green. So then, so here's my question. Listen, they have the conversation. Yeah. Saying like, you know, you say I'm going to quit the job, right? You know, I don't want to be away from my family.

And she says, no. No, you need this, right? I see that you need this and you're going to take that job. And I'm not going to quit my job either. We're going to figure it out. And you're like, how is this going to work? And you're like, you know, we figure this shit out, right? My question, like, as somebody's been married for 20 years,

and like, I have gone through distance in the relationship. When we were, I was doing Army wives, working in Charleston, South Carolina, right now had the six-week rule. And like, through experience, I was like, too long. That's too long, right? You start to become too accustomed to being. accustomed to being single people who are married, but the married part almost feels like it's in quotation marks and it's not, you know, sharing a life.

Rachel and I have lived apart for six weeks while being in the same house. You know what I mean? Marriage is hard, shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So I'm wondering, like, as you guys, because it's hard when you know the writings on the wall,

Right? Like where you, but I wonder how audience. These guys don't know that the writing is on the wall. The couple doesn't. Yeah. The audience does. Well, the audience has an idea, but they don't know for sure. No, that's true.

That's true. The only thing that we have seen is that you and the future showing up at my mother's house. Without a wedding ring? And without Kate. Yeah, maybe you did have a ring on. Without Kate? Because the thoughts at the time. Old Man River in his bed by himself?

Yeah. What is it? Randall? I'll be right there. Wait, I just need to stop real quick for a bucket of sidewalk chalk. Getting out of this bed is too low. He's like four years older. That's what I said.

Wait, wait, when you first showed up to the house, I was like, hey, tell me you get to see. Hey, Randall. And I was like, hey, man, you can't be too much older than that. I'm still talking like this. Hey, my friend. It's been a hard seven years. But we've seen in seven years. You clearly work out more than I do.

Early onset. You injecting peptides? What are you doing? Osteoarthritis. Oh, my God. Did you? The sidewalk chalk really did me. It got me.

That took me out. I'll be right there. I just need to Google sidewalk chalk. His tears go by. Oh, man. But there's a sense of optimism in that people are willing to work it out, right? That's what it is. Yeah, there's a sense of optimism.

And there's also, I mean, maybe me just knowing what's coming is just like, just because all of these things are right, doesn't make it right. Doesn't, you know what I mean? That's what I was thinking in my head, too. I was like, just because, you know. Well, she says, and then she goes on, you know, he throws. out another tombstone quote and she catches it, where other people haven't been catching his quotes. She catches it.

Oh, these two know each other really well. And he says, I love you. And she, because I know the movie quotes. And he says, no, this is for many other reasons than that. And I think that that's the, that is the compassionate part of this story that the, that Dan and the writers have decided to tell, is that even if all of these things are true. It doesn't necessarily mean that this is the right place for them.

That's what's, I think that's what's saddest of all. It's a much sadder story because when someone does something wrong, it's pretty undeniable. Yeah, it's clean cut. It's easy to point at it and go, oh, okay, well, that's the rupture. And it's sad and that sucks, but it's understandable why two. people would split and not stay together after something like that. But in this particular case, when you're like, there was so much good. And yet it still wasn't right. It still wasn't enough is a scarier prospect. Do you think if a different decision had been made at any point? Do you think

we are saying that it could have been salvaged if there was better planning? Or are we saying that like these two people were meant for each other for this season in their lives, and that season is complete. I think the latter. The latter. Because I love the optimism of both of them going like, no, I'm going to still work. You're going to take that job, and we're going to figure it out. I mean, I feel like that's what I would do in that situation.

It sounds daunting, and we have two kids, and living apart sounds impossible to wrap your brain around, and yet let's try it. And if it doesn't work, then we figure out what the next step is. I just get divorced. Well, no, we figure out. You know what? You don't make this work? No, you keep your job.

I'll keep my job. We just don't keep the marriage. Great. Period. Done. Deal. Let's go to the family now. Okay. So with my family, my daughter feels like a Tess is in a bit of a mood.

I'm not quite understanding why she's... Has been for a season and a half. Has been for quite some time, right? Dacia, we just find out that Malik got in the three or four schools in the Philadelphia area, still waiting to care about U-Pen. Later on in the episode, we find out that he got in the U-Pen, so it's four-for-four, and then Malik tells her it's actually five-for-five. He got into...

I applied to Harvard, and I got into Harvard. And if we remember, Malik's baby mama lives in Boston, right? I don't know if you guys clocked that part. I didn't remember that part. She lives in Boston and she'd been coming to visit the daughter or whatnot. But now he's going to possibly be in Boston in close proximity to her. That's what you're reading on days. That's a wicked person.

It's not just that he's gone, but he's going to be with her. Yeah. Okay. Over there. That's what happens there. We talk to Tess is sort of like the whole time hanging out with grandparents. A grandparents are very cute, by the way. They need hugs.

It gets a little weird, but it's also very, very funny. It's so dumb. He's so dumb. Grandpa must have dogs. But we fast... But also, really, for a second, I was like, oh, this context is actually really helpful. Right. This is grandpa.

Yeah. And these children have never known. That's it. Another grandpa. Yeah. That's correct. Which is, you don't get to see him in that context very often. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We get to the wedding venue. Tess is still sort of in the mood. You see mom trying, like, you know, because she mentioned Malik, and she also mentions Alex, who's the valedictorian. Of their class. And Tess is like, yeah. Your significant other is Mechel, too.

Yeah. Not just the one that got into UPenn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they get to place. And after just a couple other beats, they're just seeing Tess down in dumps, Beth is like, sis, what's going on? Like, what is happening?

What can I do? And she's like, I feel like everybody wants me to be this version of myself that I'm not. Because she's wearing the wedding dress. Yeah, the wedding planner gave her like a bridesmaid dress. But she's just not feeling. She's like, I don't want to wear this. It doesn't feel like me. And she's like, let's see if we can't fix it up.

And we were talking about this off camera. The TV move. TV magic. Wait a second. But wait, I have an idea. Yeah. And they look at each other. Right now, Chris is holding Mandy's sweater.

They know because they're watching on Hulu a day early. Hmm. Come with me. And magically. Magically. A sewing machine has been procured. And a montage. Sweating.

We don't even have a montage at this one. No, no, but sweat coming down on Beth's forehead. Just working to a song. Everyone's watching. Yeah. Just see what she will do. Yep. Through the sewing machine.

There's like scissors and like, And like fabric is just flying. Fabric is flying. Well, it's pretty much like that because whatever she's concocted for Tess is an entirely different. Entirely different. Like, how? It's got a black t-shirt top attached to it or whatnot. Yeah, but suddenly the embroidered part from the dress.

Coolots or something down to the below. Well, it's become like a poodle skirt or something? I don't know. Yeah, cooots. Yeah. Isn't that what they're called? Strait, that's what kids like these days. Like, you know what?

Nobody will let me wear coolots these days. I don't know if that's the right word. I don't want to be saying something. No, you're right. It's cool. You're not offensive. I just want to say the word as much as possible. If you give me a second.

Teenage girls right now just, just got to get into a pair of cul-lats. Oh, God. Mom! He was starting to stand. This guy's gone on one. I don't want to be in a dress. I just want to be in a pair of cul-lats. It's definitely not Kulats, though.

It's not Kool-Az. 100%. It's just a skirt. But that gives her sense of satisfaction. I might be so puffy that they come together in the middle. This idea that I can express myself. Palazzo pants. Just how simple palazzo I would accept.

Here's a tangent, and I'm curious where you guys are with this because I remember when Andrew was younger, we would sometimes buy two pairs of tennis shoes, the same tennis shoe, but he would like, one would be a red pair and a green. and we would let him wear, he wanted to wear one red and one green. Hot. And I was like, it's all good. I love it.

But I'd go to St. Louis and they'd be like, you let the boy wear mismatched shoes? I was like, yeah. And they're like, huh, you let him do whatever he wants? I was like, no. You know what I mean? But you know what I mean? But like, I have no qualms with him wearing like these, so I was just like. You let other people tell you how to raise your kids?

Nope. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. It became a sort of thing. I'm curious that you guys have. any sort of individualistic expression

that's starting to come through with your kids and their style choices. Bear, bear is all about pink and rainbows. I love it. I love that too. Wants to be covered in them. Okay. And so, neat.

He wears rainbows. Yeah. Yeah, okay, does. Yeah, I loves it. Yes. Not there yet. Everybody's sort of like, wears what you want. What I pick out for them.

The biggest argument is. But they're also, they're dressed. Oh, that's sweet. Are they ice-coasts? They got this. They're starting to like want to dress themselves. Okay. Which is very cute.

Yeah. And I can also tell when dad dresses. I'm like, oh, okay. No one can you tell. How can you tell? Oh, I could just, I'm like that green and that green. Don't go it again. Yeah, you can't wear open toes with a polozo.

With a polo or a cul-at. Or a cul-at. And like, who put them in the cul-laws today? Is that a mule heel? You want to hear argument day that happens about two or three times a year in the brown house is picture day. where mom picks all the clothes, and they're like, no. Do we have to?

And I try to find some middle ground to make everybody happy. And the answer is, bro, you have to. Yeah, you have to. Please, I have to go to sleep with this woman. Yeah, please wear these clothes. And then as soon as you can bring another pair of clothes after the picture is done. Yeah. They don't like collars.

They don't like buttons. You know what I'm saying? And she wants little soldiers. And now she's fine, with Andrew, she's finally sort of yielded. Yeah. right he's he's almost 15 years old with amari still like because he's still cute and everything like she'll try but he's starting to sort of like we're coming up on our annual struggle what's it's not it's not picture day picture day kindergarten do it do what you're going to do

but we we go to see rachel's family for fourth of july that's when the whole family gets together yep and they always have like a couple hours one morning where like a professional photographer comes to the house or whatever okay and the whole family does the midwestern thing of... Dressing alike. Or in like a same... Coordinating. Same color.

Like the three daughters will send out a color scheme to all the families. Totally. I'm from the Midwest. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, and it's like four people peeking around a tree

or whatever the photo is. You've all seen the photo. Oh, we've seen the photos. Somebody listening to this podcast right now is looking up on the wall at a full five-person family peeking around. a big oak tree. They're in orange, brown and green. Yeah. And peek it and

finding it's laughing. Yeah. And trying to get our two kids to do it is just like, we get really great photos from it because what you end, what we end up getting is like really candid, like tumultuous, like brooding. Like this photo, like look at this photo. Like this photo, like this photo is, is Rachel consoling like two children who don't, who don't want to take a picture, but it's the best picture I've ever seen. It's a good picture. You know what I mean? It's so good. But yeah, it will be a full like full thing.

I don't know. How did I get to that one? I got to that from the show. Oh, because she was wearing her cul-lats. Because she was wearing her cul-lats, right? So she's not good, right? Sure. Whatever is. The last part of that. Whatever moves this thing along. Whatever. The last part of that is Rebecca

and Randall. And mom wanting to speak to Randall about New Orleans and he's like sure anytime so she finally cornice him oh he's blithely making a rap song up down the hallway just blithely just having me and randall rattle p rapping about his free time you know what I'm saying that's what I was like this guy is bored what's he going to get into rapping about free time it's so dumb it's so dumb and so dumb and and and here's here's mom from around a big oak tree. Want to talk now?

Is now a good time? Let's get a coffee and catch up. I haven't cried yet today. Want to talk? Totally. It's such an interesting thing because, man, I'm curious, like, from your perspective, because there's two things happening at the same time. We start talking about my birth mom and, you know, meeting.

Yeah, meeting high and everything. And she starts sort of crying. And for Randall, it's like, this isn't about you. This is me sharing a story. Was this one of those moments where you were, like, disagreeing with what the character was doing or something? No, because I ultimately knew what it was rooted in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But as a viewer, I was like, geez.

Jesus Christ. It's a white woman's teeth. I'm like, let him have this moment, ma'am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You interrupted his brilliant rap for this. Jesus. Like, as an audience member, not remembering where this episode went, I was just like, oh, and not everything's about you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a little, there was a little bit of that feeling of like, where is this going? Because I don't love that she's just like, he's showing her pictures and she immediately is crying. It's like, well, that's not fair. He did love, I just, I just want to hear about your trip. Oh, okay. Well, here's just a photo. You kind of.

It was. It was. It was. And he was like, oh. I was like, uh, ma'am. He gets saved by his, uh, man, uh, best man duties. Kev's got an emergency and then we'd go outside and the scene that we already talked about transpires. So, uh, Randall's outside. He's like putting decorations around a tree or something like that. And there she is again. Hey, sorry about that. Uh, I'm fine now. I'm fine. I'm fine. I just want to do it. But this is a- Tell you why I was crying.

This is also, when you're talking about, like, this left me feeling cleansed. Yes. This scene fell out. And I'll let you speak to it. Because I literally wrote. No, no, I wrote down, I was like, I wrote down like, Mandy Moore, you better fucking act. Like, that's what I wrote. Sweet.

And she's true. She better dead. She did. She killed that shit. You're sweet. I forgot all about this scene. Yeah. The only thing I remember about, I have two anecdotes.

Well, I'll get to the other anecdote later. Okay. But I remember this shooting this. part of the episode because it was when Gus visited one day and I have a picture of you holding Gus. Yes, I remember that too. Which I'll have to show Gus because now he's, he thinks that I just host a podcast, which, no, shame in that, obviously. I mean, we all do jobs beyond that. Now on head gum. Now on head gum and Hulu. A day early. But he's very, he's very interested now in what, like, who I work with. And so, so.

Sometimes when we're listening to a podcast in the car or a song or something, our podcast will come on like kind of afterwards. And he's like, is that Sterling? Is that Chris? Like, he's just, anyway. So I think he'll be very excited to see a baby picture of him with you. Anyway. So I remember that.

But this scene I totally forgot, like I forgot about. And I, as an audience member, I was like, oh, this feels really good. And really appropriate. and for an episode which I think we can all admit feels a little uneven and clunky sometimes. I don't know about that. Oh, I guess I'm alone in my hot take. That's a odd thing to say, Mandy. And Christopher Sullivan just said, get the fur!

Under the bus. I will stand behind saying there are parts of this episode that feel uncharacteristically kind of clunky. Agreed. This was a highlight for me. As an audience member. Agreed. Seeing this. Some might call it a lifesaver.

A very necessary conversation to happen and transpire between these two people at a very important time. I mean, I think Rebecca is very aware of the ticking clock. And I think there is relief in her knowing that this favorite human of hers got to have this experience, something that she knows. she partially robbed from him. And so this long overdue apology was really nice to witness. Yeah. She says something to the fact that I never gave you a reason or I never, I never apologized or I never gave you a reason.

Oh, I wrote so much down here. Tell me what you wrote down, because I'm curious. Randall and Rebecca, I've never really given you an explanation, have I? And then I said, Mandy Moore, you're so good. Oh. So sweet. And I don't know, like, I'm trying to remember what the record, the reason is, or an explanation is, but it was also in it. You were saying, like, at no point have I ever given you the space to actually talk about what's missing?

Yes. Right? Like, at one point in time. So the backdrop of this one, I guess we'll have to go through this too, is that mom and dad are arguing in the past. Oh, yeah. Over the dynasty episode, right? That Jack taped over. An alley that he just blithely taped over.

It was a silly marital spat, but it happened in front of the kids so much so that it sort of jolted them into like, are mom and dad okay? Are they going to get divorced? Kids are standing there like children of the corn and like, are you guys going to get divorced? And like, yo, parents argue all the time. But we love each other very, very much. And then that devolves into another argument like while you're doing it. Because he says something about a silly TV show and you're like silly da-da-da-da. And so you're like, y'all need to get married like right.

right now. Yeah. And you do. We have like a sweet little family wedding. Yeah. Where we kind of like all marry each other. Yeah. Like it's just sweetly like we're going to be a family forever.

Yeah. But it's interesting because like you got we were watching or in the past you guys were watching the video I think and you say like at one point I saw you looking at the video and like in my mind I was wondering if he was thinking about his parents like knowing that we are his parents but his birth parents. And I still never questioned. I still never brought it up and I never allowed you this space

to bring it up either. Yeah, she explains why she did what she did and how she kept it from him. And, you know, she also, there's no real explanation and she's been lit off the hook far too many times. Talks about the family wedding

looking back at Jack and Rebecca. And in her mind, she's like, I rationalized it because they were addicts. Yeah. And still, I never gave you the form to talk about it, ashamed of how I hid things. And the fact that it's way too late, but I need to say that I'm sorry because you were my entire world. And then I loved this.

Like, if I cry, it's because I know what I robbed from my favorite person, not because I'm jealous or hurt. And I loved that. It was like, because Randall is a rescuer as well. Yeah. And I think she's like, no, no, let me cry. and know where my tears are emanating from. I'm not jealous or hurt. When you talk about your mom and I'm crying up

and having coffee with you, it's because I know how deeply wounded you are, the trauma of robbing you from the experience of potentially knowing this person and knowing your father. And that is on me. And so then she's like, so please tell me about your mother.

And he makes the decision. and says my birth mother, which I was like... Yeah, that was good shit. It was good. It was good shit. Made me happy. And then, I mean, you can speak to this, but you start telling her about this trip and how it... Just unlocked a part of me that I didn't even know it was there.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, and I feel very similar to, like, having done Skipgate's show, finding your roots and whatnot, this connective thread. And sure, I could probably trace it back further as Randall could have probably traced things back further, but like knowing that your beginning doesn't start at the fire station, but like there's actually something that's rooted, that's real, that like contributes in terms of nature and nurture the nature part of me, like I have a more intimate understanding of,

makes me feel like I know myself a little bit more fully, right? So I think it's pretty cool. So that's, that's, I think that was a highlight. Mandy Moore, you're a highlight. You're always a highlight, Sterling. Namaste. And then we have the Pearson family coming together at the end. Mom and her three kids and just sort of consoling Kev and sort of figuring out where they go from here.

Yeah, I love this scene. I think this scene was a redemptive part of the episode for me as well. Yeah. I just because I was like, oh, this is important. Like as we are buckling up for this last season. knowing that Rebecca does not have time on her side, the fact that, like, at the end of the day, it's still the four of them together, connected, and they need each other now more than ever. I really loved, again, that Kevin was like, I couldn't lie. For what it's worth, I'd marry you.

It's very sweet. Creepy. It's very sweet. I like it. But I love that she admits, like, in these situations, like, I used to be able to figure in your father so easily and what he would say and how he would fit in and what he would do. But it's getting harder in time, maybe with the disease, maybe with the fact that he's been gone for as long as he's been gone. The kids, charming. He wouldn't leave your side.

He wouldn't leave cats. And he wouldn't let you drink. He wouldn't let you drink. And he lets folks know that that's, don't worry. I'm good. Yeah, like, I'm good. Yeah. And, you know, Kate also says you need to stay.

busy because you're best when you're busy. That's right. And then Rebecca, this is the part that I love. She was like, I want you to build me that house, Kevin. Like the house that your father always wanted to build because the cabin was like so healing for me being there was like that was my happy place essentially. And I think like that's this, that's what we're meant to be doing right now. Like let's build a house that we all can be in together.

Yeah. Because what's more important than that? Yeah. And he's like, yeah. I love that he so easily was like, okay. Okay. That Callio song comes in hard at the end of this. It was like, this is a...

It's dramatic. It's a dramatic move for our show. We slam back to the beginning of where we had where Kevin in the tuxedo doing his whole marriage thing, thinking at first that he was working on his vows. Yeah. But now it's like, but he didn't get married. Yeah. And so he goes to like the next room and we see Madison and Beth. and him being like asking for...

But first we see... Uncle Nicky walked down the hallways like, sorry, had to get stockings for the wife. And you're like, the wife! I think I missed that when the star, yes, yes. And the magazine. We saw a picture of Randall in New York magazine that said like a star is born.

Up and comer. And just Kevin says so much, like, hey, nice article or whatever. Just read your article and, you know, you make some cute little comment or whatever. We're like, okay, so we're definitely somewhere in the future. What the This Is Us is happening? Not too distant future.

They walk into this hotel room. The women make a fuss. Like, no, no, no, no, no. You got to get out. You can't see. But it's Madison and Beth. Yeah. Right.

So you're like, well, this is not their wedding. Obviously, they didn't get married. Right. So who's getting married? No boys allowed. We see Kate walk out in her wedding dress. You can do the joke. This is the last time I'm doing this.

That's right. And you're like, Kate's. This episode sucks. And then Kevin leaves the room again, and we see... We see Philip coming out of a bedside. And he goes, you don't mind if I make a few British jokes, you know, on your behalf or whatever. And Philip says, if you can't take the piss out of your future... If you can't take the piss out of your new brother-in-law, who can you take the piss out of?

Right? That's what he says. As the demon barber of Fleet Street. Yeah. Yeah. We're going. Get in. Gov.

That's what he says. If you're not watching this podcast, you're truly missing out on the most delightful. That's the end of the episode. And that's the end. We would just leave an audience hanging. It's not the end of this episode because now we're going to get a chance to talk. To the demon,

to the demon barber fleets street himself. We're going to have a visit from Chris Geer. From Chris Geer. The lovely Chris Geer. The most delightful. Stick around. We'll be right back. So this week's episode ended with one of the biggest surprises of the entire series.

A flash forward revealing that Kate eventually marries Phillips. It's crazy. Crazy. So we thought who better to talk to than the man himself? Today we're sitting down with actor Chris Gier. Gear to hear about his experience on This Is Us and bringing Philip to life. Yeah, let's get into our conversation with Chris. Is it going to be a little tension?

No, no, no. It's bad. It's much. You know, and find out, you know, what it's like stepping into one of these shows in kind of the most unexpected of storylines, shall we? Indeed. Indeed. Chris, gear. Chris, can you hear me? Those.

Ah, you are. Well, this is lovely, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, my God. Goodness. It's good to say. Hi, guys. Hi, friends.

Hi, friends. Oh, this is wonderful. Look at your setup. Yeah, we got a whole thing, man. Situation here. This is, that was us. Yeah. It's gorgeous.

Are you in L.A., though? We are in L.A. Where are you right now? I'm in not so sunny Manchester. Okay. Do you live in Manchester year round? Like, is that home right now? We do, yeah.

It's home at the moment. I'm hoping to go out soon. especially because you've got the soccer World Cup coming up. That is true. Sterling's pumped. I'm very excited. You're speaking his language. Very excited.

It is going to be crazy. I didn't realize, but it's going to be on for like six weeks. Yeah. It's long. I didn't either. It's all over the country. Yeah. And even a couple of games, I believe, in Mexico as well.

And Vancouver. And Vancouver as well? Yeah, so it's all North America. Yeah. You were in Los Angeles, though. When did you go back to the UK? We went back, we kind of made the decision when my son was about to start senior school. Oh, okay.

So he's 13 now. So we were like, it's such a long commitment and we didn't know whether we were going to be staying or going and everything. So to put him in a school in L.A. seemed a bit of a risk. So we came back and then I got a couple of jobs over here and it kind of just kept me here for a bit. The social and political climate here in the U.S. wasn't involved. Oh, God. Didn't feel... It's not much better.

It's not much better here. Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. The world is burning collectively. Yes, it is. It is. Okay, good, good, good, good, good to know.

You know what I started? I was asking, before we get into, like, your specifics with Philip and the show, this is us, a micro, and then we'll go back up to the macro. I remember talking to Chris when we were going through the whole story. of the dissolving of Cotoby and the beginnings of what do we call fate, Philip Cate. You like that? It was fate. That's not too bad. You came up with that at the wedding scene, actually, because Cephillip didn't really...

It doesn't flow quite in the same way. Yeah. But what... So I guess we're going to ask this question about, like, what's it like stepping into sort of this very unexpected storyline? what kind of feedback you got from folks. But I wanted to start with Chris, because Chris, I remember having... Sullivan, excuse me, because you guys are both names.

Sully, I should say, was like, things are weird. It's tough. It's tough for me. Because it was a crossfade, right? Yeah. It wasn't a clean break. It wasn't like our marriage ended

and this new storyline started. Yeah. It was like because the way our show works bouncing through time. Totally. It was this crossfade. Do you know what was really interesting? I watched your last episode.

where Philip comes in for the first time. Yeah. And you said, Sully, at the time that both you and Chrissy knew what was going to happen. Yeah. So in the audition, I didn't. Oh, wow. And Dan Fogelman had no idea that I was a super fan of the show. Oh, wow.

So when we were running the scenes, and they would, Chrissy, or the first audition was just me and the casting director. And then the recall, the kind of screen test effectively. was on the Paramount lot in the Pearson's house. Wow. Just outside, which was incredible, you know, daunting, but incredible. And so it was Dan Fogelman and the casting director and Chrissy. And we were just reading the scenes from the school, doing the, at the deaf school.

So they had nothing to do with a romantic storyline whatsoever. Yeah. And we were doing those scenes. And I remember the dialogue was hard. He was, Philip was being, like you said, a bit of a prick. Yeah. And I was like, he's not very nice, this guy, is he? And Dan said, Dan said, you're not going to like my next note.

I want you to make him meaner. And I was like, oh, come on. People are going to hate this guy. And then Dan goes, you're going to hate me even more now. He actually is partly. during the breakup of Cotoby. And my inner actor, my inner actor, my inner actor was like, yeah, stay professional,

just nod and go, yes, yeah, that's an interesting storyline. But the fan in me went, no! What? And there was a tiny part of me, it was like, I can't be a, I can't be a part of this. This is awful. Really?

And, you know, this was the most kind of heralded, heralded relationship in on TV at the time. It was like and so to be respond like part a part of that was was crazy. And I thought I thought, oh no, oh no. A, I'm going to be hated. Were you hated? Did you, did you receive? What kind of feedback from the world did you get?

Nothing negative at all, which is like a big, which was really nice. Apart from my neighbor, who is also, my neighbor in Manchester, who is a huge fan as well of the show. And I hadn't seen, I'd been in L.A. for probably six months and came back and I was greeted with boo.

Every morning as you leave the house. Every morning. She wanted to get his paper. Oh, my God. She's like, I hate this Philip guy. I was like, yeah, I'm trying to find ways to like him as well. That's incredible. This is amazing.

Okay, so this is, I'm glad you got to share that thing. Because I remember, I remember just being like, there'd be times, especially in the last season, where we'd all be together. I gathered for the wedding and, like, Sully was not there. And it's like, oh, wow, it is. It is strange. And I think, did we meet in the makeup trailer maybe for the first time where we just kind of looked at each other and we're like, well, here we are. Yeah. Yeah, here we are.

And luckily you had your beautiful son with you at the time, who was pretty young, actually. Yeah, yeah. And that kind of broke the ice a little bit because I was meeting you, but I was also meeting him. Yeah. So it was like, hey, buddy, while slightly looking up and going, like, hi.

Well, this has to go well, nothing bad's going to happen while he's holding up in the same. That's an asshole in front of his babies. Yeah, exactly. But funnily enough, that same day that I was in, I wasn't shooting. I was just having a makeup test with Zoe. And I went in and the first thing Zoe said was, oh, there is the new Miguel. And I went, what do you mean?

She went, well, now you're the most hated. Well, I mean, just like it is. The new Miguel. But I have to caveat this with the fact that everyone was so supportive of brilliant. And do you know, we had to, you know, Sally, we had to do that photo shoot with you, me and Chrissy. Yeah. That was, that was helpful. What was this?

What was this? It was, we were all gathered. I don't remember what it was for. Maybe Entertainment Weekly? It was kind of, yeah, Entertainment Weekly. And it was the solo shots, but they wanted something fun with the three of us. Yeah. And there was something fun.

I was looking, looking for pockets. of opportunity to break the ice with everything. Yeah. But it was really like that that photo shoot was like early, early on. I remember that now. Yeah, yeah. Way before we started filming anything. I think Chrissy felt more awkward than anybody.

Sure. She did. Yeah. That's very Chrissy though. This is, this is. So like Chrissy's energy takes on whatever and she can't hide anything. Like you want to play poker with Chrissy because you know exactly where you stand. And she'll tell you firsthand.

He's like, I don't necessarily want to feel everything. I just can't help but feel everything. So like the dissolution of this, the coming together that, like, it's not just like Kate that's going through it. It's Chrissy. Yeah, she's feeling it all too. Yeah, for sure. Totally.

There was a role there to play to be supportive to the situation. Yeah. As well as do justice to the storyline because I think all of us, I was relatively new, but all of us were super sad towards the end of the show anyway. Yeah. You had all those feelings. Plus, you had the huge storylines going on with Rebecca and this breakup. Yeah.

And I said to Chrissy at one point that I said, please talk to me about anything. If you're feeling kind of weird about anything. And she told me all the time, she said, I've got this energy here, this kind of bucket full of tears that are ready to come out. And I don't know when they will. And I said, well, I think, you know, everyone's feeling like that. And it's okay if you want to have a cry. Yeah.

Yeah. It was a super emotional time. But amazing. I mean, that wedding that you were talking about selling with everyone there, everyone was there. Apart from Sully. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

We shot in. I was not invited. You, well, I was. Well, and then we also shot. their wedding. Uh-huh. Kate and Phillips' wedding. Didn't that's what I'm talking about.

Oh, I thought you were talking about Pasa Robles. That wasn't Pasa Robles. I thought it. Yeah. Oh, gosh, yes. Of course, sorry. I was like mixing. I get confused.

There's too many weddings on the show. I understand. We just watched Kevin's. This is right. Wedding. Near wedding. Not come to fruition. Correct, correct.

Also, real quick, just the people who live there call it Pasarobles. Oh, maybe it's Pasoobles. And I think. you're mispronouncing the name of your city. Well, I think it's Paso Robles. Yeah. And there's sort of an anglicizing that happens. Of the Robles. Give it

give it the Robles. I mean, listen. I think it deserves the Robles. That's... This is a very white history of taking the Spanish and the Native American names and saying them, however we want. I want it. Passer Robles. I'll tell you what was quite surreal about that. If you remember, we all

stayed in the hotel that we were filming. That is correct. So my my bedroom was literally, you'd open up the balcony and you'd be on set. You'd be getting, you'd go out for your morning coffee and get miced up at the same time. Oh my gosh. Okay, so wait, let me go back a little bit because you talked about being a fan of the show, which I did not know. Like, so you had been watching the whole time and when the opportunity to come up on the show came to you, you were like actively watching or did you catch up once you?

you got the audition sort of thing. I had a meeting on the Paramount lot with the casting director when you guys were shooting season one. Oh, wow. Wow. Really? And I saw the signs because Mandy and I had actually screen tested for something years and years ago. And I was like, oh, I wonder if I'll bump into her.

Wait, what did we screen test for? We screen tested for the family thing that you did with Sean Levy. Okay, a TV pilot. TV pilot. Really? Really? Okay. And that was probably, I don't know, 12 years ago.

Yeah, a long time ago. And I thought, this is us. And I'd read that Mandy was in it, and I wondered whether I'd bump into her. And then I was going, oh, she probably won't remember me anyway. Let's go. And then the show came on TV. My wife and I totally hooked from day one. So we start watching that.

Then I moved to America when I'm doing You're the Worst and Modern Family at the same time. And we moved to L.A. And it was just pre-COVID. And I started doing this manifestation thing, right? Which is, I'm quite big on anyway. I went really deep on it. I listened to Mandy's back catalogue hundreds of times. I had try my best, Los Angeles on repeat, which is great.

I had a picture of a topless Justin Hartley on my fridge. Yeah, but that's all of us. That's all of us. That's all of us. That's fair. Because he's a hunk. Yeah. And I started, like, hoping for this opportunity.

Then, funnily enough, just before the audition, I was doing an episode of hacks, you know, the series HACS on HBO. I was doing an episode of that, which was on the Paramount lot. Yeah. And I finished that day and then got the email. about the audition for This Is Us. And so the following week, I'd finished HACS, and I went back to the lot to have the audition,

and it went from there. Wow. And then I knew that, because Philip was only in a couple of episodes in one season, and then the full next season. Right. It was such a whirlwind, and just, when you guys asked me on the show,

I said, I had a wonderful time kind of reminiscing about how it all came into place. Yeah. Just wonderful, really. That is so cool. Well manifested. Yeah. That's a good reminder to all of us.

Have you done that with like many other jobs in terms of just like, just reminded myself, I need to put more naked pictures of men on my fridge. Yeah. I'll send you some. I'll send you some. So we'll do it. That's nice. So from the experience, from beginning to end, tell me the things that's

stick out the most for you. The jumping back in time was a really interesting thing to do. Yeah. Because you have to make decisions, really. Yeah. About how you are in that point. I'd come from such a place of Philip was in, was such a knob.

Right. That how could I then go from someone who would actually be a good partner to Kate? what is it that makes him endearing whatsoever. And I always trusted the writing, because the writing was just insane. And I trusted, and Dan said to me, there's going to be an opportunity for Philip to redeem himself in an episode. And you don't hear it, obviously, but the accent helps.

Does it? Yeah. And as much of a knob as you want to be, there's so much forgiveness. in the American heart for the British accent. For the charm of a British accent. It can sting and at the same time, it's like, well, he must know what he's talking about.

And tell me more. I mean, you could see the redemption sort of begins in this last episode of season five where he says, like, I didn't want you to have this job. Yeah. Like, I was completely and totally against it. But you're really good at it. And you're really good at it.

So it's like this sort of charming like, so I do not accept your resignation. Yep. Goodbye. Yeah. You know, it was just like, oh, okay. And she was sort of like, what? And as you touched on as well, another kind of like spoke in the wheel, as it were,

was that I was behind a mask as well. Yeah. So you only got this much to convey all this stuff. Yeah. That was frustrating. I mean, the whole... You don't like acting with a mask on? It's not your favorite?

Oh, my God. That was frustrating because my, as an actor, my first week or so is all about getting to know everyone and introducing yourself and all this. And we were, do you remember, we were in little points? Yeah, you didn't like your little plexiglass, uh, life-sized action figure box. Yeah. Right. And we're getting, we're getting calls to go and get swabbed at 6 a.m.

And we may wave to each other before we go and do that. And yeah, it was just a bizarre time. But it was, it was, uh, as soon as it kind of weaned off a bit and we got to pass a robles, as you say. That was brilliant. And I got to have an opportunity to have a one-on-one scene with you, Sully, which was wonderful. And the one-on-one scene with you, Sterling, which I loved as well. So it was great.

The writers just, they just know what's going on. Yeah, they nailed it. But before all of this, before this is us, you had done, what, five years on a BBC show called Waterloo Road. Is that correct? And so you had already been established. And even going further back, we were, we were reading the bio. Your first play. The first play with the Royal Shakespeare Company, Allswell.

With Judy Dench. With Judy. Come on, bro. Yeah. Come on. That was insane. I was lucky enough to do Stephen Colbert a couple of years ago. And he was talking about his first theater thing as well.

And how nerve-wracking that is, even though I had one. online. So, you know, there's only so many ways that I can mess that. Almost worse, though. That's almost worse. So much pressure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. And you're like, it's coming up. It's coming up. Here it comes. And you go, how do you should do that do that? Yeah. So, but having Judy there was a real, I was only 21, I think. So I used to, I was a right swat. I used to go and sit in the wings and watch her. She was just magical. So that kind of thing. Why not? Yeah, it was a real kind of great start.

I haven't actually done any theater since. I was like, right, I'm out. That's right. You've done one play? Yeah. One line and one play with Judy Dench. One line in one play. Done.

So I think I might, yeah, I think I might go down that route again. Because it is amazing. It's such a different discipline, isn't it? Yeah. To the TV and film world. It's been 10 years since my last play, and I feel myself itching to maybe the two of you need to talk about something. Let's get off. Why didn't you come to the West End?

Oh, or a West end? Let's do it. I'm down. I'm down. I love that. True West. Love two brothers. I've played brothers to white people before.

I have no problems. I'd watch that. Yeah. Incredible. Oh, dude. Thank you. Wait. No, no.

No, no. This is fantastic. Easy. Yeah. Is there anything else that like when you think about your time on the show, like, anything that sort of comes to mind, something that you loved or something, a funny story, like anything. I know we're sort of jumping in time to the sixth season

because that's really where you came alive. Your characters sort of worked the most. The onset stuff was so kind of powerful. I found myself getting quite emotional in scenes when Philip wouldn't. And that was quite interesting because I could see the heartbreak in in kate and as an audience member and fan i was like i hate this yeah and quite often i would i would be told to to to rain in the emotion to to kind of you need to be more stoic here

this guy don't be afraid the only time in the history of this is us yeah yeah don't be emotional don't be against yeah don't be yeah don't be afraid to be unemotional yeah and that was that was really tricky. And a lot of the stuff was just Chrissy and I for a long time. Yeah. So meeting it, meeting everyone else was, was a real joy, actually. I love that. And do you remember, this is quite a funny story, but when we, when we were doing the wedding

stuff, it was someone's idea to do this dance. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the TikTok stuff went viral. Yeah. We did the wobble. Yeah. We did the wobble. Yeah.

We did the wobble. Yeah. And that was interesting. because I remember doing the wide shots for the wedding scene, and, you know, I wasn't saying anything at the time, but all I could think of was, is it left then right? Or is it right, right, left? The important thing.

That was probably one of our most viral things that we put out there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was pretty fun. It was a lot of fun. It was freaking awesome, dude. That was the best part, I think, of the show, were those moments where we all could be together.

Yes. There was just this collective energy. that pulsated through, like, all of us just sort of getting to be around one another and for a special occasion because it was really reserved for, like, holidays or a wedding, some sort of celebration or party or something. And it was just, it was always the best. My favorite thing was always, like, at Paso Robles, like, we were there with everybody else who was at the resort and they would see folks together and they'd get very excited or whatnot.

And I always wanted to say, well, here's the guy who made the show. Because Dan gets to move through. The world. With like nobody's seeing anything. I was like, no, no, no, you guys want to give some love. Give it to this guy. Give it to this dude right there. And then Dan just pulls his hat down further.

And he just disappears even more. You know, and makes some like self-deprecating dirt. All right, well then meet Kate's new husband. This is Chris. Exactly. Gear, thank you for making time for us. Is there anything that people can catch you in coming up or that's out now? Where they can see, catch you on socials?

I have a couple of things. that are soon to be released, that are not yet released, but keep an eye on the old socials. Which are? Yeah. Yeah, where can we find you? Which are at C-W gear. At C-W-G-E-E-R-E-E-E.

G-E-E-E-R-E. Yeah, follow me. Oh, that's lovely. Guys, it's been awesome. Oh, you're the best. I miss you. You're the best, too. It's so good to see you.

The best to you. Oh, you're the best guys. Thanks, Chris. Thank you. Good to see you. Bye, bye, guys. Have a wonderful day. You too.

You too, man. Dude, gear's a good guy. Yes. Such a great guy. Yes. I know it must have been so strange for you because like here's this person that is coming in to occupy the space that you have filled. It was. It was weird.

I didn't think. I didn't expect it to be weird. Yeah. And then it was. Yeah. The same thing sort of happens to me or like I heard Sue express. this one time when Randall was going through like the different versions of life with his therapist and she saw him with other women.

Like Sue were kind of like, why are you kissing his other women? Yeah. I'm, you're one. That I'm, this is my space, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, it was an interesting, interesting experience that I hadn't really thought about in a very long time. That's the end of this season. Yes. Of not, I don't know if we have the seasons of the pod.

But it's the end of the season five of this show, which means we have one season left, 18 episodes left. 18 episodes, bada bada boom. We know things are going to be happening. We know that we're going to see the dissolution of a marriage. Yes. Right? Yes. We know, I know that Mandy Moore directs her first episode in season six.

And don't you? Me as well. Christopher also Christopher Joseph directs his first episode. But I was saying yours in particular because it focuses on. The disillusion of Katobi, right? Yes. So, like, as an audience member, a pure audience member, I wanted to like, are you fascinated?

Are you saddened? Are you, like, a little bit of both as you're waiting in this hiatus for season six? Because you know you're going to see it, but you don't want to see it? You know what I'm saying? Like, all this stuff? I felt like, yeah, like it was really buckling up

to be brutal. We also know, listen, it's also season six, and we've been telling the audience for a long time, even though people are probably silently hoping that it goes beyond, but we know. This is the end. So we also know that all the flash forwards that we've seen at this point in time, it's like, oh, this is, we're going to see that as well. We have seen you in the bed, right?

So we know basically that like we are at Rebecca's deathbed. So like I can only imagine, like, there's one thing as a cast member knowing all this stuff, But like as the audience who is waiting and whatnot, you're waiting. I don't think there's hope that she's not going to pass away. I think you know that part. Yeah, you've seen her in the bed. She's 122.

Yeah, it's also like, this is just what life is. This is what life is. But what I like about what the show does is, is while we're not afraid to deal in the dark parts of life, but we also don't keep the light. out either. That's right. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that's I think the beauty of the show and its own sort of life goes like the beauty of Dan's ethos. It really is. That's right. Listen, you're on the land right now. I'm on paradise right now. My man has created a post apocalyptic world, but hope is still

central to the show. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You're going to deal with the NFL and I'm sure it's going to be gritty and like hitting and a completely different way. But it's still Dan. And the heart of who he is is like constant, I think, in whatever he creates. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. So, gang, thank you. So off we go.

Thank you for this time. We'll see you guys in a little bit. Shall I say it? May I? If you don't mind? Please. That was us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions.

Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da-da-da-da-dum. That was... That was us. That was a hate gum podcast.