That Was Us - Kevin Does The Right Thing | "The Guitar Man" with Ryan Michelle Bathe (608)

Episode Date: October 20, 2026

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 6, Episode 8: “The Guitar Man.” Sterling K. Brown and co-host Ryan Michelle Bathe are joined in studio by the episode’s co-writer, Jake Schnesel, to discuss the making of the episode. As Kevin takes his twin babies to the family cabin on his own, he struggles with his confidence as a father. Meanwhile, Cassidy experiences an unexpected trauma response, and Nicky helps Kevin understand that sometimes the best thing you can do for someone is simply be there. In this episode, the hosts chat about: * Jake Schnesel’s journey from assistant to writer, and how Dan Fogelman encouraged him to pursue his own writing career * The differences between writing for a drama like This Is Us and a comedy-mystery like Only Murders in the Building * The pressures and fears of working in a comedy writers’ room * Parental guilt, grand gestures, and a fan’s special trip with her daughter to see the hosts live * Ryan’s hilarious mispronunciations and Sterling’s stories about her language mishaps They also break down the episode, including: * Kevin taking his twins to the cabin alone and learning to sit with the discomfort of being a new parent * Cassidy’s PTSD-related car accident after what seemed like an otherwise good day with her son * Nicky sharing his own experience with trauma and teaching Kevin that he doesn’t need to fix everything for Cassidy * The Pearson siblings saying goodbye to their childhood home at the pool, as Kevin grapples with feeling like he doesn’t belong in the deep end * Kevin discovering a new sense of purpose through building homes for veterans and connecting with his father’s legacy * Justin Hartley’s voice memo reflecting on Kevin’s journey and his experience working with Milo Ventimiglia as director And a friendly reminder, you can catch new episodes of That Was Us every Monday, a day early, exclusively on Hulu. Available on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts on Tuesdays like usual! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Thanks to Article for sponsoring this podcast! Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit https://www.article.com/discount/twu and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. - Shop now at https://Fabletics.com/THATWASUS to get 70–80% off everything when you sign up as a new VIP. Take a quick style quiz and be sure to select THATWASUS when prompted to unlock this offer. Don’t wait to start checking everyone off your list. - Machine Washable Rugs, Made Better. For a limited time only, our listeners get 10% off + free shipping at tumbleliving.com/THATWASUS #Tumble #ad ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a headgum podcast. On today's episode of that was us, we're diving into season six, episode eight, the guitar man. Kevin heads to the cabin with the twins and finds himself confronting what it really means to be there for someone in crisis. Meanwhile, flashbacks to Kevin's childhood revealed just how long he's been questioning whether he belongs in the deep end. Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at nofrills.ca.

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Consumer Reports top-rated subcompact SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer Reports is not indoors products or services. SKB here. I'm not flying solo, but I am flying without my brother and sister in arms, Christopher Joseph Sullivan and Amanda Lee Moore. But in their stead, we have two very, very special guests. Number one, the co-writer of Episode 608,

former assistant to Dan Fogelman, former assistant to Steve Beards, who was our line producer, then to Dan Fogerman, who was our showrunner, got into the writer's room, worked his way up, and now this is the second episode

that you wrote on the show? Third, yeah. Third episode that you wrote on the show, my friend, a truly wonderful human being, Mr. Jake Schnessel. How you doing, brother? I'm great, man.

It's so good to see you. And unless I forget, I also have the other half of my real life R&B, right? The woman who is my help meet, who makes life so full, so wonderful, so joyful, she makes us late just a little bit. But she always comes through hard.

Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for Ryan Michelle Bathay. I'm like, y'all rule. Whatever. Always there when you call. There you go. Always all time. There you guys. How you doing, Bert?

Okay. Once again, my apologies to anyone and everyone who's listening who was impacted by my tardiness. Thank you for waiting. Listen. And thank you for waiting. Akuna Matata. You guys are probably listening to the podcast, but if you're checking us out a day early on Hulu, the bird looks good. The bird looks good.

She came with a nice little fit today. I brought a frock. She's got, it's a beautiful frock. Your skin is, skin is looking good. Hair is all, like, like you look cute. Thank you very much, Derek. I know, you're really holding down that Mandy Moore spot because Mandy Moore always comes in looking cute. That was my inspiration.

Yes, I was like, I cannot let Amanda, Mandy Moore, sorry, I said her name that you said, because we have a cousin named Amanda Lee as well. But I could not let Mandy Moore down with the cuteness factor. I know I have not. I haven't quite gotten there because she is truly the cutest ever. Yeah. But I'm bringing my own brand of that. So you're doing that. And don't let's not act like Chris Sullivan is not an adorable human being either.

Sully is real cute. He's always wearing his quints. They check out and support our sponsors or have you. But like Jake is rocking the hat, which Sully oftentimes rocks as well. So it's like you guys are perfect proxies for my regular co-host. Jake, I want to catch up with you real quick. Now, I was telling folks, like, I've known Jake since the beginning of This Is Us, but he was really Dan's assistant. But you were saying, like, first, Steve Beer's assistant.

Yeah. Right? To, like, track us through the progress and how you wound up in the writer's room. Because Dan would tell me, he's like, he's a really talented writer and he's doing stuff. But, like, when did he finally say, like, when you got your chance to go into the room and be a part of the crew? So in terms of the writing, it was, I mean, it's all credit to Dan where, like, I was so. nervous through most of that job and just like trying to stay on top of it and we're always like running between the room and post and it and set and wherever we were and like didn't really

take the time to write until eventually he turned me as like Jake give me a script what do you like and he he really challenged me really and reminded it and reminded me like this is the career path that you want I know that right now you're my assistant but you got to write you got to keep on writing. So then I like started really making the time to do that and then I finally you know worked up the nerves to give him something and he took me out for a drink to talk about it and he said, do you want to write the season five premiere with me? It's like yes, yes Dan, I do. Oh my God. Let it be said, season five right is COVID and it is sort of like the

show sort of determining like are we going to to address what's going on in the world. Are we going to address Black Lives Matter, et cetera? Or are we just going to do tangential things? So talk to me about that being the episode where you get to pop the writing cherry, so to speak. Like, were you nervous? Like, was it a conversation amongst the writers

in terms of like, how do we pull in what's happening in the world versus how much do we leave out? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot. So initially we wrote the episode and COVID hadn't happened yet. Like, Dan, I remember specifically, we were on set. the end of season four, it was the day you and Justin had the big blowout, like, you, the Randall Kevin had the big blowout.

And Dan, like, kind of sent me off to go do my pass on the outline that we had for that episode. And I wrote it and I sent it. And then it's got to be, like, 45 minutes after I sent this thing to Dan, the NBA got COVID. That's right. And so I'm sitting there and I'm already an anxious person. I'm like, is he going to read it? Is he going to read it?

Oh, my God, he hates it. And then eventually I get in even back from day, I'm like, and I think this COVID thing might stick around for a bit. We think we might have to address some things. And then it became this very, you know, much bigger room conversation as everything changed in the world. You know, as COVID happened and as with George Floyd and everything, like the whole room really came in in this beautiful way to have these really hard conversations. And I know you've talked a bit about that on on this podcast. We have indeed.

about what all of it meant and what the responsible way of addressing it was. And so it turned into this, you know, eventually turned into two episodes. But it was really, as a human, it was this great moment where I think I became smarter by having these conversations with knowledgeable people about everything that was happening. And as a writer, I learned how to rewrite. Yeah. And pivot. Pivot. Was it?

Okay, wait, home. Before I jumped too far ahead, tell me about the spec that you gave to him for him to read, for him to sort of like invite you in. So I've given him, he's read a bunch of my stuff now, but he spec that it gave him then

was this show about this real woman named Allison Steele, who was a, she was the first real woman on FM radio at the height of at the height of rock and roll. So we're talking late 60s, early 70s. She's a celebrity.

She's dated Sinatra. And Jimmy Hendrix wrote Nightbird flying about her. Oh, shit. And, but she was, I mean, she was called the Nightbird because she can only be on at night because they didn't trust a woman with daytime sponsors. Oh, wow. Really?

Yeah. I would have thought the reverse, but okay. Right. Yeah, that's interesting. Because the bird is on during. the day and night. Well, no, you think night, you think nighttime, prime time, but I guess radio is slightly different.

I'm talking like graveyard shift. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Yeah, three in the morning. But she was a real tastemaker. She found Jefferson Airplane and everyone. And she had this real, like, celebrity about her in this high-flying lifestyle.

And what nobody really knew about her was that she was also a single mother. And she was balancing these two worlds. And I was raised by a single mother. So it's a story actually that came to me through one of, I think you've been privy to a Steve Beers story or two about music. Yeah. Beers has lots of stories. Beers is also 97 years old. And so he's been around the business since it's beginning.

So it's pretty amazing. He's not 97. I'm just kidding. But, yeah, he mentioned her name to me once. And I was like, boy, that's interesting. And I started researching this woman. And I eventually wrote this thing. and gave it to Dan.

And then, but to Dan's credit, like, you know, so then we wrote this thing together, but he didn't stop pushing me to write things. Yeah. And then he eventually, like, really, like, sat me down. And I come from a little bit of a, I had an interesting upbringing. Okay. I had a, you know, me, three sisters, single mom, dad in prison for, from time I was six into my late 20s. Your mom have four kids.

Four kids, yeah. By herself. Yeah. Pops incarcerated. Yeah. And are you the baby, the middle? I'm the third. Okay.

I'm the third. I'm today years old learning this. I do not know this. It's, you know, it's something that like I'm both open about, but I also don't talk about that much. Okay. And eventually, it was like, dude, you got to write the pilot. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, you're right.

I do. So, like, he was the best. best mentor in the world because he was totally inviting and just let you, you know, from day one was willing to hear your thoughts on things and invite you to post and all this stuff. But also like, we'll give you that kick in the butt when you need it. Sure. So yeah. Wow. Will you tell everybody what your job for the past, you know, five or six years has been just so that they get an idea of how things have sort of played played out? Yeah, I, so when this is us ended, I went to go work on only murders in the building. Right, right. So another, another thing under the Dan umbrella. Yeah.

And that's, I thought it was going to be a more different vibe in, you know, in the room than it actually, that it actually is. So it's just, you know, mystery and comedy and all that, but also, like, fan and, like, there's a real heart to it. And that's, I remember going in there and thinking, I don't. Am I going to be able to do this? Am I going to be able to tell jokes with these people? And I immediately, you know, some of the writers who were so brilliant, started telling jokes. I was like, no, I can't tell jokes.

But what I can do is pitch to the heart and pitch to the mystery. Yeah. And then maybe I'll learn how to be funny by osmosis. Has it happened? Yeah, I think so. I think I get a, I see some jokes I'm proud of. What was this? Can I ask?

What was the scariest part about the transomases? between this is us and only murders, as a writer for you walking into that room. Oh, getting fired. Ah, okay. I just thought I was gonna get fired every day. Yeah. But you know what?

I feel like, isn't that, like, even at a table read for a comedy versus a drama, you hear about people at comedy table reads losing their jobs a lot. You hear. You hear. They lose, if you can't land the joke, like, folks will be like, oh, maybe we need to

kind of like recast this thing with you know what I'm saying? Dude, for like eight years of my life in pilot season, it was always, they fired so and so and such and such, girl, get your bags packed. Like, I have actually gotten jobs because this didn't work or this person didn't work and they had to re-rower. I mean, like, you know, it's a whole thing. An interesting thing from the outside,

because they think that like the drama is the more sort of like, how do you carry around all that weight and everything? It's like, drama sets tend to be like way chiller. for sure. Then a comedy set. I don't know if that's the case for only murders as well, but like oftentimes, especially like on a multi-cam sitcom, it's like, all right, they're not getting this. And then so the writers get together and they start talking about different ideas for,

like, how to rework the joke or whatnot and trying to rework it. And if it doesn't work, then at a certain point, sometimes people, 86 skidoo. But that's not a here north either. Let us talk about the episode before we dive into the detail. of it or whatnot as the writer. You, K Falls, did this together. Kev, one of our senior writers, he also was on pitch.

Kev, back in the day, was on the West Ring. Dope-ass human being. Talk to me about the partnership with him in terms of bringing this particular story to life. I mean, Kevin's just, Kevin's the easiest guy in the world to work with.

He's a cool people. Yeah, he's like, I think he knew I was nervous, and he met me there, and he made it comfortable. Okay. And he was just very like, he was very deferential. He never saw me as an assistant who happened to be writing the episode with him, but very much just be me from the beginning as this is my co-writer.

Yeah. And it was very egalitarian the way that we approached it. Yeah. And I think the other part of the episode that was, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention, was how big a part Jim Leporto was. Okay. You know, and I don't know if you guys have talked, have you talked to Jim? I don't we haven't talked to Jim on the podcast no we have yeah so much of this because of

Cassidy's story in the episode like was really mining PTSD yeah talking to him about like the realities of what Cassidy and Nikki went through yeah um so we'd just be on the phone with him constantly um and it was really I mean it was so again it was one of those moments where it was so helpful for the episode and the writing of it and also as a human I think made me better and more well-rounded because you just understand this stuff, which hopefully came around in the writing. You know, we had, I remember many rooms, you know, many, many rooms because we had those three episodes in this lot that were all kind of tied together. I was just looking through my email, these master docs we had, trying to make sure that

every episode wasn't stepping on the other one's toes in that past timeline. But we were really talking, like having these more difficult conversations in this episode, too, about, you know, about trauma, about suicide, about like really trying to make sure that we address these things responsibly. Yeah. And I think we did. And for something with, yeah, for an episode that deals with such heavy topics, I think we had a lot of fun doing it.

More, that was us after this short break. Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low, no frills price. This is delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at no frills.ca. The new Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid is the most fuel efficient cross trek yet. That means less time filling your tank and more time filling your day. More court time. More ride time.

More lake time. More camp time. More go time. The new 27 Subaru Cross Trek Hybrid. Consumer reports top rated subcompact. SUV. Stop by your local Subaru dealership or visit Subaru.ca to learn more. Consumer reports that's not indoors products or services. Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at nofrills.ca. Can I ask a question? So what do you put

first. When you have such a responsibility, like you said, to the subject matter and to, you know, because at the end of the episode, you know, they have the little tag at the end if you need help. And, you know, so as a viewer, you're very much left with the, you're left with what she's had to deal with, the heaviness of it. And, and then that crack,

that there might be a little bit of hope because it is, there is that crack and the light comes in. And at the same time, you still have to be like, like you said, there's all of these other episodes. You know, it's still, this is us of it all, right, which is the timelines. Do you feel like you have to go, you know what, I can't think about this one or this one. I have to just think about this and then, you know, fix it in post. Or are you the type of writer that you're constantly balancing both of those responsibilities? In terms of the timelines?

In terms of your writing process. I think she's telling me, if I may, like, tone-wise, are you worried about something feeling too heavy and overpowering the rest of the episode? No, it's like, because you have such, like you said, you have the master document of the timelines and making sure it's not, you know, overlapping. And I'm saying, like, do you let that go in favor of,

like, I just have to speak to the heart of this and then someone else can figure it out? Or do you hold both of those things at the same time? In the writing of it, I think we first write the story and then we go back and see now where do we need to trim back and around so that we can honor the other episodes and make sure that everyone

to say what to tell theirs. Yeah. So definitely write first and then figure it out afterwards. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's important because sometimes I feel like people who, I mean, people who are going to be listening to this

are going to be wondering what, how to, like how to write. Right. What should I do? And sometimes I think that that helps give a little bit of a peek into your process. Yeah, and I think that's just a good writing note

in general, just write the thing. Yeah. Then go fix it and address what's wrong or what needs to come out. But if you first put it all out there. That's a great note because it's not easy. I guess someone who will write things from time to time, there's this weird pressure that I think novices have. And I'm concerned about it is to get it right the first time.

Yeah, you want it to be perfect the second it hits that page. Do you know what I'm saying? And that's just not the process. Like you even said, it's like, you know, I learned how to rewrite, right? Like, writing is rewriting. Like, over and over again, as a producer sometimes, I'm like, how many drafts of this pilot do I have to read? More.

More. There's going to be more and more. And I feel like that's something that's important to put out to would-be creative. It's like, it's not going to be exactly what you want it to be necessarily the first time out. Or second. Or second or third. Like, don't allow that to keep you from putting pen to paper and writing the story. Right.

That's the part that I think is. Yeah. You never know what it's going to. I remember in college, on USC, and we had this little script library. Yeah. We go to, and I picked up the first draft of Goodwill Hunting. Yeah. And it was Robin Williams' character wasn't really in it.

It was really just the Scarsguard feed. Yeah. And he was kind of after a book deal. mini driver didn't come in until like page 80 it was it was centered around the FBI trying to get will to come help solve this bomb threat or it's it's i'm sure i'm sure i'm batching all of this but i remember seeing how different it was and that has stuck with me over the years as what you put down is not the finished product something will reveal itself in the writing and maybe you'll find something on the next pass and yeah this is okay that's fascinating that's crazy but i wanted to ask you

Before we get into like the nitty-gritty episode, because you watched the episode with me last night. As a matter of fact, full disclosure, we watch 607 and 608. Now we're waiting, we're doing this out of order because I want to do 607 with Chris and with Mandy because she's such a central part of that episode. Very much so.

But we didn't want to jump out of order and have it out of context in our minds, right? What sticks out to you from 608? I'm curious, just as an audience member and somebody who you were going to talk about it today, the things that pop in particular from the episode. As a fan of the show, there's so many layers. You know, there's just so many layers.

And the first thing that pops out is them in that pool. You know, and how many times did I say, oh, my God, that's a beautiful shot? Oh, my God, that's a beautiful shot. You said it a lot. Shout out to Yasser, yes. But yes, yes. I mean, always and forever, right?

But them sitting around in that pool and just the idea that we're never, like, I didn't even think we were going to get or needed closure from the pool. Right, like the pool figures. You first pop in at the pool. I first pop into the pool. That's right.

But then the idea that, like, we get as audience members and they get to say goodbye to the pool, and I didn't even know that was something we should do. Do you know what I mean? Who knew? You knew. Y'all, somebody knew, Dan knew.

It was a foundational thing. It was a foundational thing, but I don't know that we realize as audience members how foundational it is until we see it play in such a beautiful way for all three of them. And they get to sit there and they get to say goodbye to each other and then or goodbye to the pool. And it does feel like in some way each other because there is this separation that does start to happen with the three of them at that point. But that was just and just him, the irony of someone. saying, I am not a deep person and not realizing that someone who's not a deep person wouldn't know that they were a deep person. You know what I mean?

I'm just like, oh, my God, this poor little, this poor guy, you know. And it's one of the reasons why we continue to fall in love with, I mean, we fall in love with all of them, but one of the reasons why we continue to fall in love with Kevin. And then to see his own arc of like, you think it's hubris at first, him wanting to get on this plane with these twins, right? That's what it feels like. It feels like complete and total hubris. But then at the end, when you realize, again, another full circle moment he's on the plane.

It's like it wasn't hubris. Like he truly needed to do this for his own growth and depth, right? And then, you know, not even knowing. Usually when someone is having PTSD or is on the edge of something, when we see Cassie at the, you know, Cassidy, she's. She's very much in control. First time we see her in the episode. Well, not the first time, but like, we see her in the episode,

and she's like, it was a foundation poor, like, made a mistake. Like, you know, get off my bat, you know, and she's, you're like, this is a woman very much in control, you know, and you have no idea that she's such on the precipice of, you know, falling apart, which is, isn't that, like what it looks like. Yeah, you so often don't. And then it takes, you know, Uncle Nikki to kind of break it down. And so those are the two things I think that stand out for me the most is like that. Just the image of them in the pool and then watching Cassidy, surprisingly for the audience, do this.

I don't want to say breakdown because it sounds, that's not the word, but like, it's this. You know, it's a beautiful, it's not beautiful. It's beautiful because obviously it comes, it comes from. such a beautiful place, I think, in the writing of it, and the fact that she's okay, but it's like she's on a path. And it's just this very difficult uncovering of how much she's had to cover. There's a nakedness in terms of her willingness to share in that moment. Yeah, that we never see of her because she's so. So first, shout out to Jennifer Morrison, who was extraordinary in the episode, right?

And I think what, similar to what you're saying, Bird, what sort of struck me is that she had a good day. Like she was really sort of full on, like, getting a chance to be there with her son, the whole, all these friends around and they're playing board games and they were enjoying themselves. And she sort of starts off this monologue after the accident and the bed talking about, like, you know, going to sleep has been hard for me. You know, it's something that I brought back, and sometimes I go for a drive. And on this particular day, like, the day was good, and she wanted to keep going. But then as she got tired, she's like, oh, could, it basically she's saying, like, it could just end right now. Yeah, yeah. Like, I felt the fatigue coming.

I didn't do anything to stop it. And instead, like, I actually just pushed on to the gas. Because if it ended right here, I got the sense that, like, you know, maybe that's not a bad ending. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, you guys wrote it.

But like, I think that the sort of the idea that someone could go from having a good day and that a good day in its own sort of way could be like a good end, right? Was like, oh. And Nikki, going back from this, and I guess we'll speak on this more esoterically. Normally we go like beat by beat, but it's really a Kevin and Cassidy episode, so we can sort of just address Kevin and Cassidy. And right now we'll start with Cassidy. Uncle Nicky says before, like, Kev's like, well, you know, she'll be okay.

Like, he was on the phone. He found out that she was in an accident or what have you. And as they're going, like, maybe it won't be that bad. And Uncle Nicky's like, bro, whatever position of privilege that you've had to deal with the things that you've had to deal with, what she's dealing with is different. You have not seen combat. You have not, she's dealt in human intelligence, which means making promises to people that you can sometimes fulfill, but mostly cannot. That was so beautifully written on your, but also so hard to hear, so hard to hear.

Right. And that, like, people like her, you don't see it coming, right? Like, now it's interesting because as I was watching the episode, when she asked to sit down in that chair, she was like, can I sit here? Like, I knew immediately, like, as like from someone, from paradise or whatnot, like, I don't want to sit with my back to any opening, right? But, like, she is, like, in a place where it's supposed to be calm and peaceful and sort of, like, at rest. She's like, I'm not at rest, right? I need to sit so I can see everything, right? I clocked it.

And then Uncle Nikki says, like, that's not by happenstance. You know what I'm saying? And so that. For Kevin, in terms of bridging these two stories, it's like, he's sort of been of the mind. I think Randall has this sometimes saying, like, you know, we're the same. Like, Kev's like, what she's going through. I've gone through and we've bonded through these things. And like, yes and no, Ken, right?

Like, you may not be able to fully comprehend what this woman has gone through, right? Like, I have a fuller, Nikki, I, Nikki have a fuller comprehension because, bro, when you came and saw me, I had a gun sitting on the death. on like ready to go. Yeah. And then he said, and it was 50 years. 50. Yeah.

That was the thing that like stopped my heart in that episode, one of the things, one of the many things. I'm surprised I'm still alive. Um, I heard stop so many times. But it did, you know, you're just like, and he says it and he's like, and that was 50 years after. Yeah.

And you're just like, well, dang, you know. Yeah. And it's, it's what I, what I really liked about Kev in this. I think Kevin Randall are very similar. in this way. And I'm gonna connect this to 607 in this way in that like, Rebecca didn't choose either one of them to have the final word.

She chose her daughter. And I think both Kev and Randall have this tendency, and maybe this is just men to want to fix and have difficulties just sort of being present. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Nicky says like, hey man, you ain't gotta help, you ain't gotta do a bunch of stuff.

Just be, right? Like me, just be. And it's really interesting, like, to dovetail into Kev now, and we can take it back from there. The conversation that he has with the dude in the waiting room is sort of, like, priceless and, like, I've had this feeling. You got to tell me, because he articulates something about, have you ever had the feeling that you're, like,

you're, like, starring in a movie that nobody else. is watching, right? And that Kev's sort of like the center of his own movie. And this desire to be the kind of person that does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Not because somebody's watching you do it, not because you're performing virtuosity or whatnot, but because I just am authentically at my core, I do the right thing, right? And then he starts to like sort of spin and be like, but how do I know I'm doing the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing. You know what I'm saying? Like he can't sort of like stop his

head. And the dude in the waiting room who Ryan and I were trying to decide whether it was a yarmaca or actual hair because his hair, poor guy. I wish you hadn't. We couldn't tell, sir. I think it was your hair. He says, man, I'm just waiting for my wife. But and can we just talk about that moment? Because I do have a question about that moment. I, okay, so every show teaches you how to be an audience member of that particular show, right? You learn at a certain point. Okay. You have the wise old owl situation going on, right?

Like, I think the wise old aisle has happened at this point, right? Oh, you're talking about with William? Right. Right. So the idea that he pours his heart out. And whoever played that the actor is so good because the listening, can I just, to be able to listen as an actor is the most important part of being. an actor and also the most underrated part of being an actor.

Huh? He's very... But you had to listen to know, get the timing of that. Thank you. So, kudos to you. Um, but you know what I'm saying? And the way that he's just so, he's listening. And is this going to be a this is us moment where he says something incredibly profound,

right? And the fact that you guys, like, that he didn't, like, if you played against, you kind of, like, played against that. Because I think the audience, as an audience member, I'm leaning in. And waiting for him to say, like, well, you know. Yeah. Stand up and get a page long. Yeah, right.

When you have wallpaper, you make paper dolls, you know, or whatever. And you're like, that's genius. He's going to rip off his face and he's Dr. Kay. Right, right, right, right, right, right. You're like waiting because you've been taught how to like watch this show. And he's like, and you play against type in such a beautiful way. And he's just like, I'm just waiting them away. So what was that?

What I love about that, too, is like it both subverts the expectation that, you know, it's going to be one of those wise old owl moments, but also what he says, you know, I'm just waiting for my wife, to me was dead on. I'm going to be the guy who does the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing. The right thing is to go and show up and be there and wait for the people that you love. And the guy is doing the right thing. Yeah. And I thought that was, which ultimately is kind of what Kevin goes in and does, right?

be like, I'm just going to come in here, Cassidy, and I'm going to just sit here beside you. And I'm not going to try to force help down your throat because I don't necessarily know what you're doing, or I can't relate to what you're going through. But I can just, I can be a body beside you. Totally. Yeah.

It was beautiful. It was. He says exactly that to her and holds to it. At first of all, I was like, is he, who watching your kids? But he explained that. He's like, you know, Edie and Nicky are watching a kid than I think so. And Matt, he's okay. He was concerned about you.

You know what I'm saying? But, like, he's feeling good knowing that you're okay and that you're recovering, right? Because I will tell you, shout out to Zoe Hay and the makeup crew, because as soon as Ryan, Michelle Bathay, saw Jennifer Morrison in that hospital bed. She was like, damn. Like, I mean, like, it was clear. Yeah. that something dramatic had transpired.

You know what I'm saying? And we were happy that she was okay. Her performance of it, again, like it was so understated and full. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It was full. Like in terms of just like, you know, I'm not sure exactly how it gets better.

But to Kev's credit, what and I was like, I'm not here to fix it. Yeah. I think it's something that like I try to remind myself of from time to time as well. Because there is this desire, this tendency. Oh, me and Ryan have these conversations. If you just had this thought or if you like maybe consider this or that. And sometimes you're like, Negro, I just need you to just take the information.

Sometimes I just need a sounding board. Yeah. You know? Sometimes in articulating the dark things, we unburden ourselves just by somebody listening to us. and feeling heard and seen. And maybe that's a path forward in and of itself, right? So I'm saying that if anybody else has typical male inclinations like your boy, maybe that's something that we can remind ourselves of from time to time, right?

I want to talk a little bit about, before we get into like Kev's sort of major arc, I love to tease Fogelman about not using black music on the show. But we actually have... Sterling. We have a dance. We have a dance between Edy and Nikki, which is very, very cute. And, gosh, is a shout. Vanessa Bell Calloway is fine as cat hair, man.

It makes you wonder, like, how the heck did Nikki? I'm like, he must be really charming. He must be really charming, was what I was about to say, to pull that sister, because she bad, man. She is. She's also our neighbor. Fun fact. And she is stunning. Can I tell two quick stories really quickly?

How quick? Very quickly. My mother is an actor. And she was living in New York. In like the early 80s. And my mom told me a story that she was doing the Broadway show, the Lena Horn show. And she said that there was a period of like two and a half weeks where she would come into the dressing room and everybody was talking. about, did you see that girl? I saw this girl in audition. She's the most beautiful girl in the

world. Like the most beautiful girl. And everybody for like, like, and it was Vanessa, it was Vanessa Bell. She wasn't Calvade. And she's, and my mother was like when she landed in New York for her, like to, you know, start her career, it caused such a sensation because she was so beautiful. And my mother was like, and I remember when I finally got to see her myself, Vanessa Bell. She was like, and everybody was right. They, she was like, she was like, they didn't oversell it. Like, she was like, she told me she was like, she was, it was like watching a living doll baby. Yeah. Just like come to life.

She was so beautiful and perfect and could dance her ass off. And she's like, and Vanessa could dance, honey. Vanessa could dance. And so that's my Vanessa Bell. Now Calloway is one of the most beautiful women in the world stories. The second story is when I finally did move to New York with my mother, she had this piano. And the very first song she taught me the chords to was that. song.

Oh. Are you serious? Baby. I would play that. That was the first thing she taught me. It was very cute. And good stories, Bird. And short and sweet.

The other thing I wanted to tie in is like so it doesn't get glossed over. I do feel like there was something that we're playing at in terms of like, is Cassidy the person that Kevin winds up with? In terms of like from the beginning, like going to the construction site, having a little like bickering sort of moment. them in the kitchen sort of like having a moment, then like the dance that happens between Nikki and Edie and then like Kev sort of like throwing a glance

over towards Cassidy or what have you. Now ultimately I feel like we end the episode in a decidedly platonic way. Yeah. Kev sort of like, you know, giving her son back to her father or whatnot, the father giving him a Kurt nod and Kev saying like, yeah, we're good. But like we're still one

in the overall arc of things, because we've gone to the future, right? We know that he's got two blonde children. Now we know who bore him those two blonde children being Madison. We also sort of like from a couple of episodes prior, and I know you kind of playing in the dark here, Bert, I'm going to catch you up here. But like, Adam, is that his name? What's Madison's boyfriends? The actor is Adam, but the Elijah.

Yes, Elijah kind of comes up to Kevin and is like, hey, look, man. Like, I plan on being here for a minute, right? So, like, if you're, like, biding time thinking that I'm going to slip up and go somewhere, like I'm lucky to have somebody like Madison. I know I'm punching above my weight, which is what Madison felt about Kevin, that she was punching above her weight or whatnot. But Kev sort of looks at him as, like, you know, note taken, right? Like, not trying to step in, not trying to beat anything, but, like, all right, you care about her,

and I'm happy that she has somebody that cares about her. Do you feel like at this point in time now is Sophie the only person left? Or we're still sort of playing with the Cassidy Kev thing? It's a good question. I remember in writing this not feeling like we were playing to the Cassidy romance. Okay. Like it felt and maybe other people feel differently. But I remember feeling like this episode was a little bit more about Kevin taking.

in the backseat, this wasn't about Kevin's love life anymore. This wasn't about Kevin trying to fix things. It was about Kevin learning to, learn to stand back and not be the center of things. And I think like in that sweet dance sequence, which by the way, that music cue was, my memory, it's all Milo. Milo threw that record on. Really? Yeah. Who's the director, Milo Svintamilia is the director of this episode. Well done.

Well done, sorry. See you, see you? No, but Milo put black music in the show. I knew it wasn't Dan. Thank you, Marlowe. Why do you have to throw Dan under the bus? I got a show called Paradise. I could not get a shoday drop in my damn show. Anyway, let's go.

Can we get a sharday drop here? Let's, please. Please, let's drop some shod in here. Please. Okay, so that was Milo. That was all Milo. That was Milo. Was you familiar with the song, or did you have something in line when you wrote it?

He had asked about some songs, and I sent him something that I thought was awesome. And I think he had this in his mind. He's just like, no, no, no, no, I know we're going to use. Okay, good. Yeah, okay. Okay. It was perfect.

It was. It was. Going back to Kev then. And we can frame it around the pool. And if I miss anything that you think of, Bird, you let me know. Because you see me, I'm taking notes and everything, but then they sort of get metabolized a little bit. We start at the pool and Kev wanting to jump off the diving board in. to the deep end. Metaphor. Because Cap don't know how to swim. No, he does not. And refused

lessons. Like, I don't know if people caught that line because she said, you had a choice and you did not want to go. Hey, your brother went. He can swim. You know what I'm saying? Black people. I was going to say playing against stereotype. No, he's stereotypes. Brown, well, not brown, but Randall's like, I will go and hit a somersault because I know how to swim. You remember in that episode when he was in the bottom of the pool? And he almost drowned. And everybody was like taking care of Randall and taking care of Kate. And he's like, is everybody going to come take care of me?

All right. So Jack is like, let me help this kid learn how to swim. So you got him kicking across the pool. He's like, I already know how to do it. It's like, all right, look. You see these kids? They're jumping off the thing. They're swimming to the edge.

If you can come from right here and swim to the edge, then I'll let you go ahead and go into the deep end. So he lets him go. Man starts swimming. A little skinny body just going down. Down, down, down. And this is a point that I want to bring up because Rebecca was like, Jack.

He's like, I'm here. And she's like, Jack! He's like, give a second. And she's like, you're all scared. He's like, he's a little boy. And he's going to be a man one day, right? Do you feel this tension oftentimes as, as a mom and a dad, where you are sort of catering to the current needs of your child.

And in my mind, I'm like looking to the future desires of the kid. Do you ever feel that in between? Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Because I feel like this is like almost a perfect Jack Rebecca moment. You used to get very upset with me when Andrew was younger about letting him walk on the sidewalk and not being like right next to him. And I would tell him, I'd say, Andrew, when you get to the stop sign, stop. And daddy and wait for daddy to catch up, right?

And so like, anytime you saw him walking ahead of me too far, she's like, are you just going to let him go? I said, yeah, but I'm not, I'll catch up to him. And he's like, he's very far ahead of you. I was like, I know. But I'm, I already told him what he needs to do, et cetera. I don't know. I'm listening. This is, this is it.

Oh, like, wait, okay. No, this is it. It's just this idea that, like, eventually the boy will have to cross the street. Eventually, he'll have to walk by himself. But I feel like sometimes you're watching, like, what's happening in that moment being like, why are you letting him so far away? And I'm like, I have to give him a little bit more of a tether each time before he becomes untethered. Otherwise, he's not going to know what to do when everybody else does.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I guess I can't help but flash to Australia which is a whole other conversation but that's why... But that's not even... That wasn't on me. Are you serious? All right, wait, wait, wait. I tell you what.

We can table this for laughter. I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. I'll have a sidebar, but I want to finish the episode first. We can come back to this. Yes, as I will say this In having a boy child, especially a boy child that showed very early, that he was, his name means man warrior. Andrew. Andrew means man warrior. And very early on, it was clear that he was going to live up to his name. Meaning that he was, if there's a spectrum, he was very much on the spectrum of like, boy, man, truck.

You know what I mean? So I realized very early on that I was going to have to play a little bit more, work very hard to have that balance between a child that I have to protect it, you know, two, three, four, but also giving you as much room as you needed to have to raise a man. Only because it was specific to that particular child. Okay. And I knew that there were going to be things that I was going to have to either fall back on or just, you know, be a little bit more let you take the lead on. Because I think, you know, if it were up to me, I'd probably wrap them in bubble wrap and, you know, just he'd probably still be in bubble wrap at the house if it were up to me, both of my kids, you know.

Until they're 50. And then it's like at 50, I think you can do this, right? Yeah, you can move next door. You can add, I truly want to go to college with them. Like, you know, Andrew has gotten to the point where I'm like, you know, you're good. You can go by yourself. But I definitely think that there was something in my brain that made me think about that and what that was like to have.

Like when you guys wrote it, you know, one day he's going to be a man. And Jack could see some things that maybe Rebecca couldn't or not couldn't, But you know what I'm saying? Like he had a, that's, you know, in raising his son. More that was us after these words from our sponsors. Unlock unlimited free grocery delivery with PC Express Pass. Shop online and get the same low No Frills prices delivered. Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month.

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Get your first year of PC Express Pass for just $2.50 a month. Learn more at no frills.ca. So after he gets out of the pool, after Kevin gets out of the pool, and he's sitting. Dad, driving and drowned it at me. That was also very. Was that something that had either happened or like did it? It was so,

it was so beautifully written. Was that, did that come from your life experience? No. No, and that was like before I had kids. Really? Like,

this wasn't something that I could, I don't remember that's seen specifically, but I'm going to guess that was a K-Fa-Fa- Who had done this dance before. Okay, okay, okay. But that's just, threw him back to, what's the season one, when Kevin comes out of the pool, like, you know, you're too busy paying attention.

Randall, because he's to adopt it, and Kate is this, and where's Kevin? Oh, yeah, he's dead. Yeah, that's a great line. Parker was so good. It was good. It was really good. That actually has stayed with me a lot. Every time I go to a pool, I'm like, is there a Kevin in the pool dying?

But she sort of talks to him about, like, you know, dad tried to kill me, your dad didn't try to kill you. Dad's just trying to get you ready. for what's to come, right? You know? And she, does she make the analogy about like, you know, the Legos and trying to build the house and like building the roof before the foundation is there?

Like, you have to, it seems as if like, Kav is somebody who kind of is in his mind wants to skip steps. He wants to build the plane while also trying to fly it. Right, he just wants to be the thing already. He wants it like that, you know what I'm saying? But like he, I think, through this episode, we're saying, they're like,

oh, you actually kind of have to move through all these things before you can actually get to that. It has to be lived. It has to be earned to a certain extent, right? Right. But I could also see as a kid living, especially Kevin living in this duality, where in some ways, Kevin is the height of privilege, right?

You guys play with that a lot during the show. The fact that he's so gorgeous and he's tall and he's the captain of the football team and he's got the girl and he's this and he's, that and he doesn't really need his parents because he's this and da-da-da-da-da. But at the same time, you know, he's also the one that, you know, she's the girl and he's adopted and I'm dead. He also lives with this interior life of feeling not enough.

Yeah. You know, while living overlooked. Overlooked. While living in a world that says, dude, you got everything. Even though on paper he's the one who should feel like the king. Right. Between the three of that. He just likes himself deeply and, yeah.

Very much, though, which is, I think, a tension that you guys play with very well. And there's a lot of resolution in this particular episode about that tension. Yeah. You know, where it's like he does sit with, and I'm calling it privilege in this moment, but like he does sit with what Nikki says, which is like, you actually don't know what she's going through because you've never lived this. And then you're accepting that. And accepting that by the end.

He just accepts it, you know? Is it in this episode or is it in previous ones? He talks about, he uses the word solid, how my dad. Yeah, by the pool. Yeah, it was solid. My dad was solid. Maybe I just want to be like that. Move back here, pound nails.

That's right. Put a roof over their head. Yeah, yeah, he does. And it's, so wait, we go to the pool with the kids. And he talks about all I ever wanted to do was, like, touch the bottom of this. strain as they're laying down in the bottom of the pool. Oh, you mean the kids when they get, when they're a high school, older, teenage, college age, college age, one went to college.

That's me. Good for you, babes. Thank you. Thank you very much. In every lifetime. In every lifetime, Randall Sterling goes to college. It's true. But, but any touches it, he's like, ah, it didn't really do exactly what I was hoping that it would do.

and he's talking about how he's not, I don't belong here. This is really good writing. Like, it got me. And Logan, Logan always gets me too. Like I think Logan as young Kev because he kind of has to live through the crappier parts of brothers' sort of life until he becomes a more fully realized person. Logan kills it. He really does. He really does.

He gives you a sad sack of like, the episode starts with a, or is this the one before? No, it's before when he's like, you know, yep, my wife left me. I cheated. He's drinking. You know what I'm saying? And there's a whole thing about food. I'll talk about this already. Yes.

Because now I'm talking about six or six years. But I know what I'm going to talk. I know that I've already talked about. Okay. But this idea of wanting to be solid and to be not thinking that he's deep, thinking that he's shallow, right? And what you said before, that, like, it takes like a fairly shallow people don't talk about not being shallow. Yeah, right? Yeah, very much so.

Or not being deep. And the way that the whole thing ends is like, you know, he gives his sister credit if she could just get out of her own way. Like, you belong here. Randall, you're the brainiac. Like, you clearly belong here, what have you. And the way that that whole sort of section culminates when, at first, he wants to spend the night there and then, like, bro, we're not going to let you sleep in the deadgum dirty-ass pool. Like, it's time to go or whatnot.

And his sister goes like, bro, you're going to be fine, essentially. Like, you're going to have to go through some stuff, but you're going to be fine. And his mom echoed that in the past saying, like, you're just like your dad. Yeah. He's like, I'm not anything like him. And it's like, no, bro, you're kind of just like him. You just can't see it yet, you know? And it is a wonderful sort of reminder.

I don't know if you guys have this experience, but the show reminds me of this all the time of the rose-colored glasses through which we see our parents and the pedestal that we place them on at a certain point in our lives. And then we get old enough to realize, are they people? Yeah. And we love them. And, like, they did do great.

and they did not do everything right. And like sometimes it's like the graces in recognizing that they didn't do everything right and that that's okay. And I still love them. Because then it gives you space to be like, all right, I messed that one up, but I get a chance to try again. You know what I'm saying? Like you kind of have to dispel the pedestal

in order to allow everyone their fullness of humanity so that you can actually allow yourself. Like, I'm not trying to live up to dad anymore at a certain point. I am trying to be who he was, but who he was was not perfect, and I'm not perfect either, and I'm okay. Does that make sense?

Do you feel what I'm coming from? Yeah, I mean, especially since I had kids and realizing, like, wait a minute, would they let me do this? I get to care of a kid. Then it's like, oh yeah, I don't, then you start to realize that parents are people, and you're trying

your best, and you're going to screw up sometimes, and you hope that the screw ups are in, that normal standard deviation where they don't need too much help that boards. But like, yeah, and I think that's like coming to terms with the fact that Kevin want for Kevin wanted to be this thing and understanding like that perfect pie in the sky vision of himself. That's that's not it's not real. Right. Like it's a you you have your faults and that's okay. And looking at his father like and understanding I can break down the superhero a little bit and not love him any less.

Right. Oh, that's so beautiful. Well said. I think it's gorgeously encapsulated in sort of the bookends of Kevin on the plane with the kids. So at first when he's about to go and everybody is looking at him like he's crazy because he wants to take his kids to the cabin for two weeks by himself. And they're like, why don't you just take the nanny? And he's like, no, I want to do this by myself. And they're like, all right.

But you could make it easier on yourself. And he's playing the guitar for him and they won't go to sleep in the beginning. and Kate says, like, you just need to parent with confidence, bro. Right? And he's like, oh, is that a thing? I didn't know. You know what I'm saying? And so when you see him on the plane the first time, and I've had this experience,

they weren't quite this young and they weren't twins, right? But taking the boys on the plane as a dude, I will say. I don't know if you've had this experience yet because you have two young babies right now. Moms are not nice to single dads. They assume you don't know what the blank you're doing. Oh, daddy, are you okay? Hey, Daddy, Daddy, do you need help? Oh, Daddy.

Daddy, did he have a blowout? Daddy, you have a change of clothes? Oh, Daddy, can you make it, Dad? You know what? I need you to get out of my motherfucking face. I had a situation, Ryan, where I got on the plane. And this is like, if you ever have this, I had a change of clothes for everybody, right?

My man gets on the plane, blows it out. And I was like, you know what, I'm cool. I got another change of clothes. to the bathroom by the bing, by the boom, I have a little plastic bag, tie that up, m'rump, ain't going to smell it up for everybody, you know what I'm saying, da-da-da, within the hour blows that shit out again. Like got nothing. Oh, daddy.

Not the voice, darling. Oh, this woman, oh. She sounds like a 1920. Right. This is dead on. I wanted to squeeze the life. I was so curious when this was. I was like, where was I?

So then, you were gone. I had to do it by myself. So I had them naked or what have you. I had another diaper. I had another diaper, right? I always had another diaper, but I didn't put any more clothes. I just kind of held them.

Oh, Daddy, you don't have any more clothes for the baby. Sterling. Ryan Michelle. No, that voice travels to everyone who is, everyone who ever witnesses a dad doing something by themselves. The voice just enters. This woman, I was like, this woman, I was black. Like, you're not, she wasn't offering any assistance.

It was all criticism. It was all criticism veiled like, oh, I'm here to help you, Daddy. Kiss my black ass. How old are your, how old are your kids? Wait, let me finish. Oh, wait, oh, sorry. There's four. Daddy.

Because, my, the point. Oh. There's a point. The point is that, like, he is operating in a space of, like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, is this what I'm supposed to be doing? Like, he's sort of like off balance, right? And I think in his mind, he has like, if my dad were, in my mind, if my dad had these three kids, they'd all be quiet,

and they'd all be like laughing and da-da-da-da-da. And what I love about it is that at the end of the episode, babies are still crying, but he's walking down the aisle, he's bouncing or whatnot, right? Like he's comfortable within the discomfort. Whereas like the discomfort at the beginning made it seem like it was a reflection on like, am I good enough? And now it's like, I know I'm good enough. This is just something I'm going to move through.

Right, right, right, right. Because then you have the woman coming here, you're good. And he's like, I'm getting there. You know? Shout out to Justin. Yeah. Love my brother. Love the performance from my brother.

We got to let Jake go in a second. Is there anything that you would love to say about the episode? as you re-watched and or recall your experience with it? I mean, you know, one thing I was just thinking as you were talking about Milo in the pool was, and I don't think this occurred to me writing it, maybe it did. But as he's saying to Rebecca, like, he's going to be a man one day. And he's always so dead set on preparing these kids and preparing these kids. And given everything that he had seen in his life and all the death that he had been around,

similar to Cassidy and Nikki, you wonder if he had this sense that, you know, one day, and it may be very soon, I'm not going to be here to teach these kids these things. And if somewhere inside his subconscious that existed, just this feeling of like, this is all going to be taken away at some point. Yeah. I am not forever for these kids. I have that feeling.

Yeah. And I don't have a feeling like a premonition that it's like going to be one day soon, but I know I will be gone. at a certain point in time, and there's this desire to pass on any and everything that I have that I think could be of value. Yes. You know what I'm saying? So I don't know if it was a premonition of like in terms of like the timeline,

but I think as a dad is like, not gonna be here forever. I'm not gonna be in the pool holding you up, right? Like at some point in time, you have to figure out how to swim. Yeah. Or you're gonna drown. Yeah. You know? So.

I think you bring up a really good point though. Like on some level, when people do leave us before their time, whatever that is, I often wonder, did they know? I always have that question, you know, because certain things, sometimes they'll say certain things. And of course, it's easy to, right? You can write that story in your head afterwards. Of course. But you're right. There is so often that thing of, boy, that was a poignant last thing that you said to me.

Right. Yeah. So yeah, I feel like we're on the same pages where that's concern. And you guys didn't have to write it because it's just there, you know, that there might be something in his, the psyche of the Jack that we've all come to know and love that is like, you know, or even at the very least, just like you said with the death that he's had. Jack does live, even when we first meet him as though he's on some sort of borrowed time anyway, you know. And I think we understand that with Nikki and. everything that he went through. And I also wonder if it's something,

we don't understand it because we live in a very different time where we have a very different. Modern medicine is very different. We eat very differently. But I would imagine someone who grew up in the 60s and 70s seeing people just kind of dropped out of a heart attack. Oh, he smoked all his life. And people just lived very differently.

So I often wonder, too, if that was something in his psyche where he just saw people not live to be 50. Whereas we're like, I feel like we live in a time. And fish living in L.A. Is being 50? No, no, just dropping. Yeah. Just heart attack, boom.

Yeah. Yeah. It scares that out of me. But it's terrible. You're right. He had seen so much death probably just in his normal life, in ordinary circumstances of people just dropping dead. and then in extraordinary circumstances in war,

then how could he not be wary of death coming around the corner? Right. Yeah. We have to let you go. But this is the one thing that I feel like we need to finish the episode with, is Kev going to the construction site, talking to the workers, recognizing the value of the vets and their expertise in building his chrome or whatnot. Right.

And then sort of like getting to the sketchbook and sort of remembering his dad, remembering his dad's sketches and sort of like the big three homes and sort of talking to Nikki and Cassidy about hiring more people and like what if we built more homes and sort of this idea that like I get a chance to carry my father with me. You got to go? I got to go. Sorry, guys.

Listen, that was Jake Sennel, co-writer of episode 608. Thank you brother for joining us. It's so great to see you. Good to see you guys. Jake, good dude. Beautiful dude. Beautiful dude. And him, listening to him tell that story about Fogelman sort of pushing him and making sure

he didn't become a career assistant or anything because writing was what he ultimately wanted to do, pushing him the writer's story. Like, that is a story you'll hear from Fogelman over and over again. We were at a cast dinner for Paradise the other day. And somebody was talking and they said, that Foggeman said, if you'll be loyal to me, I'll be loyal to you. And so a young man who started off as his assistant, you know, shuttling, you know, folks around on the golf car from here and there, wound up getting into the writer's room,

writing three episodes of This Is Us, writing the season five premiere with Dan and Kay, and now has been on only murders for the past five years. It's really, really cool to see. Like, Fogerman doesn't like too much attention for being a good dude, but as his people say, and I like to borrow, the word, you're mensch, dude. You're a real mensch, and I appreciate you. So I'm glad that he told the story because I do think that hearing those things is really important to developing the next generation of writers. Yeah. Or anybody, really. Sure. Mentorship is the only way that we get

the next generation of really anything, especially people in the artistic field, I believe. You know, I believe that it takes somebody who says, I think you can do this thing to, really bring out that thing in a person, you know, whether it's, you know, I had a, I didn't go this route, but I had a professor in, in college, who told me, I didn't get into something for a master's program, something, because it was, it doesn't matter why, but, you know, he just took the time. It was five minutes out of his life, but it, I remember it forever because he was like, if this is something that you want to do, I think you have a talent and a drive to do it. And if you need my support, just let me know because I will support you.

Who was the professor? I don't remember his name. No, and it was because it was, like I said, it was a very last minute type of situation. I was in this class with graduate students. I don't even remember how I got in it. It was one of those like, you know, one of those things where you weren't supposed to be there. This thing happened and blah, blah, blah. And I was kind of, I was the only undergraduate in this class.

And, you know, it was a master's level class. And, you know, he was like, I need you to know that you did rise to the occasion. He's like, I don't think you think that because, you know, the other master's degree students were not the most pleasant of people because they were, you know, they were trying to get their study on. They were like, why we got to deal with this, like, you know, kid here. But that's the point. It's like somebody has to deal with the kid here. Somebody has to say, yeah, I know. This is a kid.

You're driving a cart, but just remember, get that script in on time. Right. It takes somebody who says, I can deal with this kid here. And so I just, I hope that that's something that someone who's in a position of power can maybe, maybe do, you know. Before we get to, I love that story and I agree with you 110%. Sam, can we hear Brother Hartley's voice note? Okay. Wow.

I remember a lot about this episode. I remember Milo directing it, doing a fantastic, wonderful job. I remember a beautiful script. I remember it being very daunting. I remember there being, the story that was being told about Kevin where he didn't quite know who he was. He's trying to figure out who he was, and this was sort of the pinnacle of that.

And he's going to take a leap and do something that is not performative. It's more or less just take. you to leave it, it's me. The hospital scene where Cassidy got injured and Kevin is waiting for her. Before that happened, he's in the parking lot and he's talking to his uncle Nikki and he really doesn't know what to do and Nikki's just as lost, but at least he has this information to give him. Sort of be yourself without telling him to be himself. Kevin ends up going back into the hospital waiting room, spends the night there. Not really knowing why, I think, and just sort of feeling a calling to be there. You didn't have anywhere else to be. And he sort of felt this need to be with this woman

in her time of need, even though she wasn't in the waiting room. She's in the hospital room, but he wanted to be in the hospital building with her. The next morning, he has a really brief conversation. It wasn't even really a conversation. It was more sort of a monologue to this guy that was just waiting for his wife. In fact, I think that's what his line was. I'm just here waiting for my wife. And I think in that in that moment, he realized that he just just, just just being there, being him, being himself was enough and it's okay. And you don't need all the answers and you don't have to try to be somebody else. And you don't have to try to live up to somebody else's expectations or the ghost of anyone else.

You could just be yourself and that's enough. As long as if you're your full self, that's enough. It's a really beautiful episode. Like I said, directed by Milo in a beautiful way and written just gorgeous words for years on that show. We were all lucky to be part of that. But yeah, that's a very memorable episode. Guitar Man. I love that one.

That's my brother. My brother from another mother, Mr. Justin Hartley. Sterling, you're so cute. I love how even after, you guys, like, even after all these years, he still refers to them as my mom, my brother, my sister, my brother-in-law. Like, they're really your family. It's very, very, very, very cute. Even when I talk about how it still hurts my heart that I was like, I don't think that he,

I don't think Kevin ever really loved Randall. And he's like, don't you say that about my brother, my brother, love me. Like, we actually have had actual arguments about how I feel like. You know how it is like you get to say about your family,

what you want to say, but like other people don't get to say. But I'm actually in real life your wife. Like I would have thought that like that would have superseded. And so, I mean, as much as you guys put your heart and soul into it, he's not actually your brother. My brother is my brother. Actually your wife. My brother is my brother. You don't get to say that.

Well, I would think that I could comment on a show. But he just really echoed everything that we were talking about, you know, leading up to that is feeling enough in and of yourself, right? this idea that you have to be something outside of yourself in order to be considered worthy, right? I think this is, I think all the big three, most people in life at some point in time have this question of, am I enough? Right. Whether it's Randall being a transracial adoptee, whether it's my sister working through her own sort of issues with regards to food, right? Even Kev, the person who on paper, like Jake said, seems like he should have it all. Right?

He's got the looks. He's in the bubble. He's got the career. He's got the money. And even still, he's asking himself, am I enough? And this soldier, and this was a bit of a hodge of sorts for him to sort of like be able to make this trip and sort of prove to himself that he was enough. You know what I'm saying? And it did not go anywhere near where he expected it to be.

go. But it was exactly what it needed to be in order for him to come back feeling that. And this idea too that like, you know, like the acting thing is something that I'm, we had this conversation in the writer's room before. Dan would ask me, he's like, do you think Kev is a good actor? And I said, yeah, I think Kev is a good actor. I just don't think he loves acting. Right? Like, I think that like people can be good at something and not feel like, deeply passionate about it. Like, I think it's a means to an end. Like, I think it affords him a life that he sort of enjoys.

And I think he sort of likes fame to a certain extent. But I say that to say that, like, this attachment, like, once he's seeing the house being built, once he's seeing the people that he has the opportunity to employ and give sort of agency in life after, like, a lot of veterans will come back home and try to figure out what's the next part of my life. Like, I've been trained for this particular thing. Now that that thing is no longer applicable, what do my skills allow me right now?

I think the combination of those two things, seeing his dad's drawings, right, just sort of like, there's this recall of like, you know what? I can do this. Like, I can do this. And not only I can do this, but like, I'm actually excited by the prospect of doing this thing that my dad started. If my dad had the time,

I bet you he would have. And I'm going to tell you, as a son of a father, who I feel like had particular love for certain things, like my dad loved boxing, my dad loved football, my dad loved entertainment. If you will notice most of the things that I watch when I'm like, go off into the corner of the house, and I'm by myself, and I'm watching a boxing match,

or I'm watching a football match, or I'm watching a movie or a TV show or whatnot, Like, I don't think it's accidental that I wound up doing this thing because there's a very strong part of me that feels like, you know what? Sterling Brown is on my back. Like, he's there. I feel him acutely because, like, I would sit on his lap and watch. And we would watch together. And we would have these moments of just connection, right?

But I do think that like the acting thing for Kev was a means to an end that allowed him a certain level of wealth that like, I can do this business. Like when he gets to design the thing that his dad was for like big three homes or whatnot, like it's, I think it's a really cool thing of a jigger. So we didn't get the chance to finish that with Jake, but I'm finishing it with you. because if you had any thoughts about it in terms of that whole thing. You just said a lot.

I'm just like processing all of it. I know. This is the broadcast. We talk about it. No, no, no, no, no. No, no, no. I know, but it's, it's, it's, there's a lot to process in that.

You, because it's like, is Kev a good actor? Like, what, what is, is Kev like just a, a true late bloomer in the sense that everything that has led him up to this moment has just been to lead him to this moment. These were the steps that he had to go through to get to this place. Right. And is there that delayed adulthood and prolonged adolescence when you lose someone who is so incredibly important to you at such a crucial time? Like, I've often thought that Kevin has been stuck at the moment of the trauma.

And in a way that the other two are not because they have other traumas to work through. And it's like, yeah, Kevin has that. I'm kind of sort of a classic middle child, even though I don't know what his birth order is really, truly. He's supposed to be the oldest, but everybody knows Randall's the oldest. Yes, he's the class. And in a way, he's like the classic middle child, right? And, you know, you think about, he does feel more so than the other two frozen in time in that moment. And his life just seems like a loop and a loop and a loop.

loop and a loop and a loop before he can kind of break out. And he needs to go through the career stuff. He needs to find Nikki. I feel like Nikki was so much a part of his story in a way that it wasn't for for for for for for for for for randall. You know, again, Randall has his own traumas said that he has to work through. So I yeah, when I think about is Kevin a good actor, I think that I think I think the answer is yes. I think the answer is yes, but I also think the answer is so much of Kevin's life is a means to and in to get him to where he can finally be an adult. And it just takes him a lot longer because he's stuck at that arrested development, that moment, right? And they say that about trauma.

They say, and it's interesting because we talked about in the episode Cassidy and her PTSD, right? And she's stuck at that moment, right? Or the collection of those moments of trauma where she's in. an active war zone and she's stuck in that loop. And for her, it's a little bit later in her development as a human being. But they say that about traumas that you get stuck there and you can't get out until you get out, whatever it is that it's time or whatever that gets you out of that loop. And so I think about that where Kevin is concerned because losing that his father and not being able to have those moments of coming, like you said, taking someone off of a pedestal,

seeing that person for who they are. He never really gets that in real life with his dad. He has to imagine that. He has to do that. I can never pronounce the word, posthumously. Postumously. Postumously.

What did you just say? What the hell did you just say? Nothing. What the fuck was that? What? Darling, you can't curse. Wait, it's no podcast. Wait.

Wait, wait, hon. Do you remember what? what I just said? Because I would love for you to say, no, no, but I need you to say it your way. Come back to the microphone. Please. Oh, my God. Well, what the hell?

What the hell? Are you serious? Wait, okay. We're going to have to take a break in a second, but we're going to come back with our fan segment. But maybe before, after a fan segment, I'm going to give you my favorite Ryan Michelle, Vefay story. About pronunciation.

This just may have passed it. This man past it. Stick it around. We'll be right back. Just like we saw with Kevin and the twins in this episode, traveling with kids for the first time can be a little chaotic. So we ask you to send us your stories about your first trips with your kids. We're excited to read this email from one of our listeners who shares a story that connects back to the pod.

Here we go. I'm going to start. This is an email from Kelly. Hello to my favorite podcasters. That's me and Chris and many. I love that. Thank you. I wanted to chime in on the traveling with kids topic. The first trip we took with our daughter in 2006

was from Virginia to Delaware when she was just a few months old and we ended up in the ER because she had pneumonia. It was terrifying. The other trip I remember vividly was when our son was a baby and we were traveling a few hours to North Carolina, Carolina, and I think he cried the whole time. I don't know how we all survive. Now that my kids are 20 and 15, I've thankfully gotten to the point where I can laugh about the many painful and trying moments when they were kids, but man, in the moment, it's just awful.

Right. Fair. My son still hates being in the car, but my daughter is quite the traveler. She's often driving hours up and down the East Coast for concerts, and we actually traveled across the country to see your live show. Oh! Look at that! Okay, Mama and Daughter! When she brought it up last fall, I thought it was a little bit crazy to think about traveling from Virginia to L.A.

just a few weeks after the holidays. But her birthday is January 16th, so I started thinking about it. And then she said, Mom, it's like you'd be taking me to see Rapunzel for my birthday. And after that, I knew I had to figure out how to make it happen, and I'm so glad I did. She has an attached picture frame that she gave her for Christmas when. She surprised her with the trip. I see it.

It was a quick few days and a lot of traveling, but we had a blast and made some great memories. But of course, no matter what age your kids are, there's always something you end up feeling guilty about. And with that trip, I still feel like I missed an opportunity to make a bigger deal out of Before the trip, I kept thinking about making t-shirts for us that said, from VA to LA, but then thought that was corny. We even met one of the producers handing out the hot takes cards, and still, I just played it cool like we hadn't traveled across the whole damn country just to be in the same room as you all.

I think I love her. I think I must have still been jet-lagged. Then, Chris told his story about regretting not singing with John Prine, who coincidentally is one of my dad's favorite musicians, and it keeps weighing on me. I can't help but think that I missed an opportunity for an epic Pearson-level grand gesture. Overall, the trip was incredible.

Thank you for creating this podcast and deciding to do the live show. Also, all three of you seem like the most genuinely wonderful people, and it's fun to see how much you love being a part of something that has meant so much to so many of us, wishing you all the best, Kelly. Kelly, we wish you all the best. There's her picture right there.

Once Upon a Time, this was you, and soon this will be us. Oh, come on. And that's Rapunzel. You can see how long the hair is. It's a good. I love it. And there we are at the live podcast. Do you know for certain that's them in the circle?

Yeah. Is that? Come on, guys. That's fantastic. Look at it. Oh, that's cute. I hope that you can alleviate whatever feelings of guilt you have for not having done more because you did a lot.

A lot. And if you had had a grand gesture, you wouldn't have this moment where we can do a grand gesture to you. So maybe you deserved a grand gesture to you. So here it is, because you're awesome and you're an amazing mom, and you're really funny,

and, like, you're not corny at all. It would have been a little corny, but fun corny. Let me tell you something. It's hard not to appear corny to the teenager, right? I'm hoping once she turns 20, because that's how old her daughter was when they made this trip.

I'm hoping she gets a little. little bit more grace. But like if we did anything, if we presented our child with any kind of t-shirt, he'd be like, uh, okay. We could give our child a million dollars in cash, and he would find a way to be like, I mean, like, so lame. Like, no one uses cash. You only, you only give a million? Like, why don't you just put it on my phone? Like, cash is dirty. Like, like, like, like, like, who does that? Like, fucking boomers? He didn't, he wouldn't say that. He didn't, he wouldn't call us boomers, though. He will call us boomers from time to time. Yeah. But he'd be like, why would I, why would I carry on this much cash? I can't even fit in in my pocket.

Like, what I'm supposed to do with this? You want to give me a wallet. Talk about helpless. That's what he would do with a million dollars and guys. But no, I am so excited that they got a chance to do this. I think any opportunity, honestly, like, to be in a car with someone who wants to be in a car with you that is your child. Yeah, yeah. Can you imagine just, like, hours on end and they want to be there?

What a joy. You got a great daughter. You got to. You clearly are a fantastic mother. I wish you guys all the best. And to the 15-year-old boy, because we have on. of those two, he'll get there. He might already be there.

The point is that I hope you keep rolling on. Just keep on rolling because I find a lot of inspiration in people who I find, I'm reading this story and I'm like, this is incredible, this is incredible. And then you're like, I should have done more. And I'm like, wow, you did so much. You did enough. You did more than enough. And so I just, I take my hat off to you, sis.

We're wishing you all the best, Kelly. Ryan Michelle. Yes. You co-hosted with me. I did. You did an exceptional job. As usual, I get off to a rocky start, don't I? But you finish strong, woman!

I keep everybody's the heart in their throat and she's going to be it. I'm like, I'm getting his toe's down. I'm on 17 different highways. Let's make this time. Ryan, for your participation. Take it a hat. For your excellence, for your love, you get a chance to look into your camera. I do.

It's my favorite part. And you get to tell them the name of the podcast. Can I just also say, I'm a huge fan. Of the podcast? I'm a fan of not only the podcast. Yes. Not only Chris Sullivan. Yes.

Not only Mandy Moore. Oh my goodness. But you as well. You're nice to me on camera? I mean, it doesn't happen very often, but you're one of my favorite actors. I love you too, Ben. You are, one of my favorite actors ever. I learn a lot from you.

As a human, as an actor, and it's an honor, always. You stop, you don't go make me cry. I love you too. That was us. Yeah, you're like, that's what it does, but use it for something else. No, do not record this, Todd. We go, I'm going to make it impossible. We went to a store.

We were at the Century City Mall. We were. We were at the Century City Mall. We were walking outside of Macy's or something like that. Stop it. Stop it. Share this. Share with the world. And there was a huge sale that was going on, right?

Like mammoth, sale, if you will. And actually, the word that they used to describe the sale was spelled B-E-H-E-M-O-T-H. And this negress looks at the sign. She looks at the sign and she goes, Behem off? And I said, what? What did you say? And she said, is that not the word? Not who you're going to go to hell and burn.

You can watch new episodes of That Was Us a day early on Hulu, and our entire back catalog is also on Hulu. And since This Is Us is also on Hulu, it's kind of the perfect setup. Guys, it makes it easy. Watch This Is Us, then watch That Was Us all on Hulu. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da da da-da-da-dum.

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