That Was Us - Kevin & Randall Reconcile | "Brotherly Love" (513)

Episode Date: May 26, 2026

This week on That Was Us, we’re breaking down This Is Us Season 5, Episode 13: “Brotherly Love.” As Kevin travels to Philadelphia to finally confront the unresolved tension between himself and Randall, the episode explores race, identity, jealousy, and the complicated realities of growing up as brothers who experienced the same childhood very differently. In this episode, the hosts chat about: * The meaning behind Philadelphia being called the “City of Brotherly Love” * What real apologies and amends actually look like * Thoughtlessness vs. overt racism and how those conversations show up in everyday life * Choreographing fights, drunk acting, and Milo’s performance as intoxicated Jack * Personal stories about early adulthood struggles, cheap meals, and figuring life out in your twenties They also break down the episode, including: * Young Randall imagining his “ghost kingdom” parents * Jack taking Kevin and Randall to a taping of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood * Kevin’s resentment over Randall receiving “special treatment” as a child * Kevin and Randall’s drunken spring break trip and explosive cab fight in college * Randall explaining the emotional complexity of growing up Black in a white family * Their argument about gratitude, adoption, and feeling like an outsider in your own home * Kevin finally acknowledging his jealousy and Randall’s lived experience as a Black man And a friendly reminder, you can catch new episodes of That Was Us every Monday, a day early, exclusively on Hulu. Available on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts on Tuesdays like usual!" That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a headgum podcast. On today's episode of That Was Us, we are diving into season five, episode 13, brotherly love. Kevin travels to Philadelphia to talk things through with Randall, as the brothers confront longstanding tensions and the ways race shaped their childhood. Through flashbacks from their younger years, we see the moments that deeply affected Randall's experience growing up. This episode is brought to you by FedEx. These days, the power must be. isn't having a big metallic credit card to drop on the check at a corporate launch.

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Why is Philadelphia called the city of brotherly? Does anybody know? Do you? I don't. I was hoping somebody would tell me. Sam, take a look. Is it? Because it's also like a very tough city.

Right, right. Philly fans are like, they go hard. Okay, Philadelphia is nicknamed the city of brotherly love because founder William Penn chose the name from the Greek words, Philio, love, and Adelphos, brother. Oh, all right, well, there you go. Pretty cut and dress.

I. Philos Adelphos. There you go. Philadelphia. It's literal. It's literal. It's literal. It's literal.

Okay. All right. So there we go. This episode, guys, I forgot about how, well, I forgot about it, but also like just how how nuanced it was. I was like, okay. It like starts at one stage and then you peel back the layers of the onion. And we just went like deeper and deeper.

and I love that Randall sort of like, he didn't even really hold Kevin's feet to the fire, but he was just sort of like, okay. Yeah. Like was not willing to accept this apology that Kevin flew across the country to sort of give him because Kevin's apology, without him even sort of really recognizing it,

was just sort of right on the surface. Yeah. And it was interesting to me. I was like, oh, how, does this episode evolve? Right. Like, how do these brothers eventually get there? And it is a really beautiful thing to witness.

Yeah. Through these flashbacks as well. Yeah. Of, like, Kevin really coming to recognize his ingrained, you know, biases. Yeah. And without, you know, and I remember, like, little bits and pieces of this episode. I obviously, like... You had a baby.

Well, I had a baby, but no, I love... Mr. Rogers. You grew up watching Mr. Rogers. And I remember, I was like, I'm so glad that us being a Pittsburgh show and having children, like, I'm so happy that somehow that, like, was sort of woven into the show at some point in time.

So I do remember that and less about what was actually said between Kevin and Randall present days. So let's break it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you going to say anything, Chris? I mean, overarching, we could talk about it as we go with the overarching theme of it. you know, the idea of what you were saying about Randall not holding his feet to the flames

kind of becomes the point of the whole conversation, right? Is that holding each other's feet to the flames is not how this gets healed. Yeah. You have to have the realization that your feet are burning. Yeah. I hear you. The acknowledgement, the accountability. Yeah.

This is not about punishment or retribution or any of those things. Sure. It has to be about self-realization. Yeah. And you guys kick it off in tremendous awkward fashion. Yeah. I mean, the way it's edited and performed and written of just like talking over each other. Yeah, man.

We know we're here for a certain thing. you want some water? Yeah. The entrance of you two is just like, it is the fastest amount and the highest amount of tension that has been built in this show. It was pretty quick.

It's in the first 60 seconds of this episode. Well, and this episode actually like starts out with this, like, I guess we come to realize it's a dream sequence. Correct. But they're in the Pearson household. Yeah. There's a mom, beautiful African-American woman at the stove cooking in the same fashion that Rebecca does.

And then a sweet, goofy dad who comes in who has a mustache just like Jack. It has a lot to say about the weather for some reason. He has a lot to say about the weather. Like, there's a snowstorm coming in. And they're talking to their child who's sitting at the table, who, when the camera finally, like, reveals him, we find is young Randall. It's like five-year-old Randall. Gosh. So sweet.

Karan. Karan. Oh, man, I miss those. I would love to see how big those kids are now. Oh, that would be, did Karan do? Those, that age group just melted my heart. Well, he was at the, it was the end of the show, and they were like five, six. So yeah, they're probably 10 now.

Yeah, 10, 11, but like. He did pair that. Sweeties. He did? Oh, nice. He played young Xavier with his dad in episode 103 when he was a pilot. Okay, I haven't gotten to 103 yet. We've just watched one and two.

103? 103. You've seen the first season. Oh, oh. He did? That was Quran? I think so. I might have made that up, but I think so.

Wait, wait, wait, 103. Sorry, I'm on two. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. Anyway, the most adorable. But we'll sort of get into maybe more of this flashback, but you're kind of like,

huh, where is this going? Like, how does this fit in with this particular episode? Right. We're just a little confused, like, this must be some sort of fantasy that Randall has, but who are these people? Right. They're not people we've ever seen before. Nope. It's explained later in the episode.

Standard Fogelman Fair. Yeah, standard. Let's do the, let's do in time, like, the youngest to oldest sort of thing, because I think, like, each one builds upon the next. Yeah, so the Jack and Rebecca, of course, there's no. Rebecca and Kate are mysteriously on a girls weekend. It's girls weekend. Wonder, wonder why that was. I wonder who's having a baby.

I wonder who's on maternity leave. But, yeah, so they're on a girls' weekend. Jack has been invited by someone at work to see a... The boys are watching Mr. Rogers at home. And he turns off the TV. They're understandably... Dad, we're watching that. Why did you do that?

My house every night. And he's like, what's better... Let me tell you something that's better than watching an episode is being there live to watch an episode. being filmed right here in Pittsburgh. And so they go to the taping of Mr. Rogers. There's a gentleman who's sort of like trying to get everyone in order, give them their passes and figure out where they're going to sit on the floor. And, you know, Jack gives his name.

He looks on his little clipboard, Jack Pearson, you know, plus two. He gives a little pass to Kevin. And then he goes to give a pass to another little white girl that's standing next to Jack. And Jack's like, oh, sorry. Actually, these are both my kids. Right. And the guy's like, feels terrible. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

Like, of course. I'm sorry that I just assumed they give passes to Randall. You know, Jack is sort of making sure Randall's comfortable. He likes his seat. Like, trying to make sure that he feels special since he was very notably looked over. He was overlooked. He's like, so, man, we're going to get your special seat so you can see Mr. Rogers. Yeah.

And, like, you got to give props to. my man Kaz in this situation. Who plays Little Kevin. So this is K. O. Yegoon's second episode, I believe, that she's done after doing, you know, Laurel's episode. And the look on his face, I was like, my man tapped into something. Yeah. Then I was like, I'll this dude's getting special treatment.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? He's like, how come he gets specials? Why are we going so far in this direction of like making sure that everything is catered to for Randall. All he did was give the past to the wrong person. Yeah. That could happen to anybody.

You know what I'm saying? There was a bunch of subtle little cues, too, like, from, to Randall from Jack. Because Jack says to the man, oh, it's okay. This happens all the time. Right. Just like these little things. And this episode really made it clear to me that the trauma does not come from being made to feel special or being made to feel less.

than, but simply by being made to feel others. Singled out. Othered. You've used it several times in the episode. And it's not always like the deep cuts, it's the tiny little slices that accumulate overtime. Oh, it's okay. It happens all the time.

Yeah. Just absorbing that as a five-year-old. Right. Over and over and over again every day. Kevin is, you know, they watch the taping. Kevin is sort of being fussy and acting out. little bit and he runs off and Jack is like knows that obviously Randall's a good listener and is like can you just stay put just stay right here I got to go get your brother whatever and Jack runs off

and Randall's left to his own devices and sort of finds himself wandering on the set the magical Mr. Rogers set of like the castle right or the the now I'm forgetting it's been a while Make a belief? Yes, of course. But, and one of the puppets, like, comes out, Mr. Rogers, like, comes out and starts talking to Randall. It's kind of awesome. As Daniel.

Yeah. Tiger. Was it the Daniel? It's not Daniel Tiger, but it's probably a predecessor. I don't think we probably could have gotten the rights. I think it was supposed to be Daniel. Got it, got it. Right.

Daniel striped. And they start saying, like, I can't remember the whole thing, but they said, like, do you like to use your imagination? Right? And Randall's, like, conspiratorily, he said, you know, I have imaginary parents. And he's like, yeah, man, that's, you know. That's okay. That's okay.

That's okay. I want to know who was doing the puppet work. Yeah, who was doing the voice. Because it was great. It was really good. It's also really cool how they shot it because like when Mr. Rogers walked out, they had it all sort of like blurred in the background or whatever. Yeah, you saw the sweater.

You know what I'm saying? You know who he was. You're like, okay, I know who it is. Yeah. Tall white guy. He's really nice. I like him. Yeah.

But there's, even before the. that part happened like when Kev sort of like hits Randall because he knows that Randall has a special seat. Yeah. And they're sitting right next to each other. Right. And Randall is like into the show like the best thing. And Kev's like, I want Randall's seat. He's like, hey, but you can see just the same thing as Randall. Like Randall, you can see right? And he's like, yeah. And Kev's like, no, man, this dude's seat is better than mine. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And wanting to go to the playground. Simply because dad was like, it is a special seat. Yeah.

And so there's that moment of them having, he has that conversation with the puppet or what have you, talking about the imaginary parents. And then we'll tie it back into the beginning of the episode too. But is there anything else that happens in that timeline? No. No, that's totally. They come home from the show.

Okay. So then this one was the most intriguing for me to watch, was watching Logan and Niles. Yeah. Yeah. And I say this because I don't know if Logan gets the credit that he deserves for the unevolved Kevin. Yeah.

Right. Right? Because he's wonderful. He's really, really good. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't want to understate that. We love Logan, yeah. He's able to simultaneously, like, there's a dickishness undergirded by love.

Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's happy to have his brother out there, but also can't help, but just sort of like take small little digs. Like there's constant fresh prints references, you know, or you're not even fresh prints. You're more like Carlton, et cetera.

Just teasing him about being a nerd and sort of model you're in, which is I wasn't model you're in. It is very nerdy. It's also a great excuse not to go to school for the day. We never had to take a trip. But we would get like one day off. What is model UN? It's model United Nations.

And you are, what do you do there? Like you represent a different country? You represent different countries and you sort of talk about global politics and like how to solve things. You break down. Are there accents? Do we get to do accents? That feels like a bridge too far. That I might stick with Mandy on that.

Yeah. I mean, if I'm representing Ireland, I don't get to. Sure. I'm not talking about. If you're representing Jamaica, what did you think? What did you think I meant? It can go whole not the way. It feels like a real hairy, precarious situation.

There are plenty of white accents that are fun to do. There are delightful white accents. I'm saying like- But I guess you're opening a whole can of words for people. If you start doing non-white accents, it's like, what is Chris doing right? Yeah. I didn't say non-white accents.

You racist? I just think that it would be best. Hot take. Hot take, racists. I think it's best to just stick with your own accent. There you go. Because no telling what country you're assigned this year versus next year, whatever. I'm sure there's like...

It's assigned to you. They give you the country and then you have to sort of like do a little bit of studying on this country's economics and global politics. And then you represent them in the United States. In the general assembly. In the general assembly. Got it. Go Randall. So they're...

Answerly. And teasing or whatnot. Thank you. What country were you? Several different countries. It happened every year. It would happen every year. But I'm trying to remember who.

I can't even remember. Okay. A long time ago. It was a long time ago. You'd remember it if there were accents. You know, it's a good point. It's a good point. I appreciate that.

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It's my first day of work and I need to make a big impression. Were you just checking me out? No. It's too bad. I see at least 15 ladies I need to talk to you before my beta block and wears off. My coworkers don't take me seriously. It's not a human. It's just a piece of meat. Someone bring a gurney. There's this, uh, Kev's like, so, he's like, are we gonna, are we gonna party tonight?

And Randall, like, you do, partying is not necessarily Randall's thing. No. But he's out there visiting his brother, his brother clearly wants to do it. He's like, all right, man, come on, let's make it happen. So they pretty game- These boys get drunk. Yeah. Cool.

Okay. So they're college age, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they're at 21. It's spring break. They need fake IDs. They need fake IDs to do that.

Kevin brings out, what is it? It's like some sort of jug of vodka. What is that? This is probably seems like smearing off or pop off even. Pop off even. Back in those days, it would be a plastic jug. Yeah. Of generic, what they call charcoal filtered vodka.

Yeah. Like rubbing alcohol? Like, ugh. Yeah, yeah. A step of that. I was just like, wait. A step above rubbing alcohol, but you would keep it in the freezer. Yeah.

Uh-huh. Because the only way it was even slightly palatable was for it to be ice cold. Had to be cold. Got it, got it. Did you go through any period like this man anymore? No. No. You're about to, and we bring out a jug of vodka.

I have very vocally, I've said it publicly, like, I've never been hung over. And I've been drunk maybe twice. in my life. Maybe. Maybe. It's never called to you. It was never called to me. And never, never anything beyond alcohol. No. More, yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've done an edible. Cocaine doesn't give you a hangover? I've never done hard drugs, just an edible. Although, I would like to do mushrooms, guys. I really, like a little mushroom trip somewhere sounds real delightful, like with some friends. Just somewhere. Yeah. I would love to do that. This is not a, I am just a control freak.

Not passing judgment on anything or anyone. Rachel's the same. I'm just a little bit more. I'm too like tightly wound to really let it go. So the bird is similar, although I was with her the first time that she did what I call over K, okay, which is overcrunk. Are you okay? Yeah, we were freshmen. at the University of Stanford.

And what drove her to is that she's very angry with some other women. She had felt wronged by someone. Okay. And so she drank out of anger, which is never, like alcohol just kind of, for my experience, just sort of further cements the feeling that you already have. Just takes it further in that direction. So the bird is, you know, like, going to town in her head and then out loud about like,

I can't believe these heifers, da, dot, da. Until she just sort of like hit the wall. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, and it happened like, hey, has anybody seen, anybody seen Rye? And I'm like, I don't know, she was just talking to somebody about something, da-da-da-da. So I start going through the halls of the dorm.

I said, hey, Rye. And then I opened the girls' bathroom. And I said, hey, Rai, you in there? I was like, is anybody else in this girl's bathroom besides Ryan Michelle Bethay? There's no other response that I go in. She's sitting on the floor of the bathroom. Now, the bird is a fastidious person.

She don't sit on the floors of bathrooms. I was like, oh, it's bad. When done. So I come sit next to her. It's like Darden and Marsha. I just come sit next to her and just try to keep her company. And she's like, why did I do this? I was like, I don't know, man.

You went pretty hard. And for somebody who used to go hard in high school, right, I was like, oh, a lot of these kids are doing this for the first time. Let me hold their hands and see if I can help it through. And she just yacked all over herself. Like as she was holding my hand, she just yacked over her. And I was like, all right, come on. Now let's lean to the side.

Yeah, at least get it in the toilet. Let's try not to pour directly over yourself and do that sort of thing. But that was what started her in her journey. And you've talked a little bit about your journey. Yeah, yeah. And you need to step away from it, too. It was just like, it was interesting to see the boys doing their thing. Yeah, this was a color on Randall we'd never seen before.

He was, like, really living it up. They were jumping on the couch. They were laughing. And it's like, I can recognize Nile's actual, like, real laughter. He has a very distinct laugh. And it's so joyful. It's very contagious when you hear him laugh. It's like your laugh.

And so it was fun to, like, hear them really laughing. I was like, oh, I wonder what they were like actually joking around about to get themselves all, like, worked up and pretending that they were drunk. And I thought that Niles did a, like, a stellar drunk. It's not easy. To do drunk acting. To do drunk acting. Yeah. They did great. I would say, like, in terms of the pantheon of the show, Milo Ventimilia. Does some A plus plus plus drunk acting. I was like, hey, man, somebody slips, something inside. Like, is he, did we go, they call it, like, I've heard people say this, like, they're

going hot or, like, where people, like, actors will put stuff in their bottles to actually do it. Oh, wow. Some people do that. Going hot? Going hot. Are we going hot? I've never heard that.

Yeah. And they, like, actually, like, throw a little something in there, like, big with the Russians, like Russian actors. I've had, like, Russian directors when I was in grad school, say, like, if there's a drinking scene, it's like, well, why don't you try? That's terrible, right? I'm not going to start. Why don't you?

See? See? Yeah. Let me do the Russian out. You do it, please. We'll want you throw a little bit. There it is. Yay!

And I was like, no, I don't know if I can do that eight shows a week, bro. So let me just see if I can go inside my head here and figure it out. Yeah, Milo's, though, because Jack is so sort of like locked up. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's a brooding, dark drunk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because most people when they're, when they are drunk, are trying to appear

not drunk. Yeah. Right. So acting drunk is is an actor who is supposed to be drunk pretending they're not. Yeah. That's good ones. Yes. When the good acting. There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you just made me think of a question that I know, oh goodness. That was a good thought that you triggered inside of my head, Christopher, and it had to do. With drunk acting. Yeah. Russians. Russians? White Russians. It's a good drink. It is a good drink. I have had to white Russian. You like milk in it?

I don't like milk and alcohol. Like I said, I had to walk away from it. There was a lot of... Yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. I'm inappropriate. I got it. Yeah, combinations going on.

So after they, like, they're pregame. And Randall's eventually like, so, man, are we actually going out or are we going to stay in here the whole time? Like, what's the deal? It's like, yeah, no, man, there's a party. We're going to go. So they go... Oh.

Kev gives him a fake ID. He says, yeah, I got fake IDs for us. So he has this idea of a brother who looks like he's about a year younger than me. Yeah. He's like, what? This guy's pushing 40. Yeah. He doesn't look anything like me.

He's black, you're black? Like, what's the big deal, right? Yeah, there it is. There's one. And there's a lovely clocking on Nile's face of like, ah, man. Like, all right, like, I, the, you try to find the silver lining in things because first of all, these two days. dudes love each other. Yeah, their family.

Like their shared experience. And even though they don't always get along like peas in the pot, he's like, all right. I don't think he's not trying. This is an interesting thing. I've thought about this in terms of, because Randall says this later in the present day with regards to intention or whatnot. Like I do, as I have navigated this world and the, I'll be 50 when this episode comes out.

And I always say to myself, when I encounter people that do things that I find, you mildly questionable. I was like, all right, so-and-so's not trying to do that, right? Their intention and how it affected me are two different things. And I try to like have grace for it. Yeah. And then if it's something becomes repeated or what have you, then I may say something. Yeah.

So like when I was in high school, there's a guy, his name is Bill. I won't say Bill's last name, because he's, I think he's a good guy. I like him. He used to do this drawing of a picture and he's a picture. and he would call this picture Leroy. And he'd draw like a black guy who had very full lips and a large nose and like a big afro or whatnot. And he's like, hey man, isn't this funny?

And he'd just make a point to show me the picture. And I remember being like, ah, yeah, yeah. Funny, right? And then he'd show like all the other people, and they all be cracking up like, oh my god, this is so good. And I remember just like going like, all right, right. I have choices in this matter. Like, I can quote-unquote rock the boat and say something about like,

like, this might be mildly offensive, bro, because I don't know, like, what's the spirit? Like, what are you trying to engender? Are you just drawing a caricature of a black person? Yeah, for a particular reason. Yeah, and oftentimes I found myself just being quiet. Just wanting to get through. Like, if I don't say anything, maybe they will move,

through it with expediency and we can get on to something else. Yeah. Right? I kind of felt like that's, I felt like Randall in that moment was like, all right, let me just leave it alone and we can get to the party. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And there's, man, like hindsight is 2020 because like you could say like, oh man,

if I had taken that opportunity, but sometimes you just want to keep it moving. Yeah. You know, in this way. So that's just reminded me of that. They get into the cab. Cav wants some music. The music seems a little low key. He's like, hey, man, we're going to a party, not a funeral.

Can we find something else? Cab driver is like, all right, this kid flips him around. He's like, no, no, no, no, something else. Not until he gets to Biggie. He's like, yeah. That's what I'm talking about. And Randall and the cab driver both is like, all right, man. That's cool.

Yeah, let's just keep going. You like Biggie? You relate to my man, Christopher Wallace. Let's go ahead and listen to some Christopher Wallace. But, oh, man, Logan just keeps knocking. The knocking on the window is so aggressive and annoying. And, yeah, he keeps knocking on the window. You know, when he was asking the cab driver to change the music,

hey, excuse me, hey, excuse me, which is like, it's so demeaning, so patronizing, it's so entitled. Yeah. Regardless, whoever's driving the cab, but in this particular case, it happens to be an African-American man who's driving the cab. and him and Niles kind of keep making eyeballs at each other. And you can tell that, like, Niles, you know, Randall wants to, like, sink into his sea.

He wants to disappear. He's so mortified at the way that his brother is treating this cab driver. Yeah. He eventually says something. He says, yeah. Hey, I'm sorry about him. My brother's drunk. Yeah.

Yeah. And... Which starts the conflict. Did they start, like... Yeah, they start, like, roughhousing. Rough housing in the back of the cab and the cab. And the cab drivers are like, hey, man, y'all can't do this. You got to get out of my cap, right?

So a cab driver pulls over, they get out. And these cats are about to squabble up. Yeah. Like, they square off with each other. And then they do. And as I was watching, I was like, all these cats are going at it, man. Yeah. I love that the cab driver's like, they're going to fight.

Oh, yeah, they're going to fight and he like drives off. Like, not my problem anymore. And I was because Justin and I have one fight in New York City. But it was like, all right, we're 40 now. So I'm going to turn you this. way and then you're going to turn this way and then you're going to put your hand here I was like yeah that word is Seth Myers

is going to be there yeah he's like we ain't going to hurt ourselves but I was looking at the I was looking at the young kids doing and I was like oh these kids are going out yeah I'm sure they were given the assignment and they were excited about it totally

totally and at the end of it he's like hey dude I got an audition tomorrow you hit me in the phone so Kevin Well, it's just like the perfect ending for his, his, the demonstration of his narcissism. Sure. Yeah. Right.

Like, even, even through this. It's like, ah, my face is my fortune. The self-centered thinking. Yeah. And then he can't find his keys and he starts looking through the bushes where they were fighting. It's like, aye, y, yike, Kevin. Ultimately, his keys were in his pocket. Yeah, of course.

Good, good. where every drunk person keeps their keys in their pocket. They're walking back. Where am I? Where are my keys? They're walking back into the apartment. And they have sort of like a moment of peace. And Kev says, hey, man, I was a dick, you know, to the cab driver.

It was my bad. And Randall's like, no, I guess I was a little something or what have you. Maybe I was overly sensitive, et cetera. And what I love about the character of Kevin in all these incarnations is you see him trying. Yeah. Like it's never a moment of him just like, like he's like, you know what, man, things have actually been kind of hard out here for me.

Yeah. Like I've had a few auditions and that haven't been a lot. I've been sort of bombing all of them. I'm going to bomb that tomorrow. And there's something that you. There's something he said earlier in the episode. Was this in the car? Was this earlier?

I had to drink just to get myself ready to, like, hang out with you. Yeah. That was earlier, right? Was that in this one? No, it was in this one? But I'm saying, was it earlier before they left the... Or was it in this? I think it was in the cab.

Was it in the cab? I believe so, because I think it was at a moment of just sort of like with them fighting and him being like, I had to drink to... Yeah, I may be drunk, but I had to drink. to like hang out with you kind of thing. And both of them said something similarly. Like like, you know what? Like I didn't know what I was going to be getting into in terms of hanging out with you,

but I was just going to find a way to make it through this whole thing. And was there, is there a button on this time? Well, there's one little thing that we didn't bring up. Please. That basically when they were starting to drink, Randall points out like, like, you've lived here for how long? And like, this is how like, you know, sparsely dexterously. decorated your apartment is like, what did you get that painting like off the street too? And

Kevin sort of like deflects a little bit like, ha ha. And then at the end of this whole, you know, of the episode, Kevin sort of basically admits like the painting that you were making fun of is actually mine. Yeah. Like I, this is what I do. It's like an exercise, my acting teacher told me about and we immediately flashed back to episode five, season one. And it's like, oh, wow, this is where it started from. Yeah. This is this exercise. his acting coach gave him to sort of get into character and like paint all of his feelings or whatever and and you know randall i think more of the button on this timeline is just sort of like if you squint it kind of looks like a jackson pilot and another button which goes to one of my

favorite jim gaffigan jokes it's the hot pocket oh yeah hot pocket Apaka. Have you heard Gaffigandah? No. Oh, yeah. Oh, Mandy. We'll have to watch it in the break. It's fantastic.

I mean, 90% of Jim Gaffigan's comedy is food-based, but his hot pocket bit is what is classic. It's what made him famous. Really? Yeah. Oh, wow. It's brilliant. And it makes me, it did remind you.

I was like, man, we ate such. When you have no money, you make do with what you got. He's like, well, if you weren't coming. got some hot pockets. It's like, all right? And you see them biting to the hot pocket. And there's explosion of heat. Yeah. Disgusting. Yeah. Scalting cheese. Yeah. That's it. Man. It was good times. That was the button on that one. What we used to eat. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. What we used to eat. I'm like a toast. My mom let me have like a Pop-Tart for breakfast. Sister, have we not, have we done this before? Yeah, I think we have done this. We have. Okay.

You almost sent me down that road again. Can we do it again? Two pop tarts? Yeah, two pop tarts to go to school? Yeah, never in the toaster. Never, just cold. Just cold. Just cold.

Just cold. Strawberry frosted, obviously. No. No, never. It's the best. No, strawberry frosting. What are you? I don't think we got frosted. I think we got the healthy ones. have mentioned this before or not. My mom would sometimes go to Aldi's. Do you guys have all these? Yeah, yeah. There are all these out here. So we would go to all these to get like the off brand sort of thing. And so one day I would go into the kitchen. I'm like, mom, where the potts? And she goes, they're in the cabinet. And I open the cabinet and there's these things called toastums. You're like, that's not a pop tart? I was like, this don't look like a pop-tarts.

So you try to eat or whatnot. And there's, you just let it out. I'm like, I can't eat this crap. And she's like, what's wrong? It's just terrible. It's the equivalent of eating a red delicious apple when you expect a honey crisp. I was like, this is terrible. How bad a toaster pastry has to be for a teenager to spit it out. When we were right out of college, a bunch of roommates packed into an apartment over like Fairfax and Pico.

And right by your old. That's where I was, yeah. When the Mobeda Meaty Meat Burger was still there. Yeah. On the corner, the Spike Lee restaurant. And we used to take. get 40 bucks a person once a month and go to the 99 cent store on Wilshire. Yeah. Because they had a frozen food section. Did they really? Yeah. And we would get those 12-inch

Celeste pizzas. Sure. And like a, like you would open the freezer and there wouldn't be any space other than frozen pizzas. Yes. And we would just eat those and and- For breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Yeah. And they had mac and cheese boxes for 99 cents. And so the cupboard was all that. And then the mac and cheese was just like, and what condiment can you put in it? To change it up. Make it a little different. Barbecue sauce.

What do we have? Packets. We get the packets from wherever we could. And there would be a drawer of packets for seasoning. That was our seasoning drawer. Your condiment. A cupboard of mac and a freezer full of frozen pizza. No, no ramen?

Like cup of noodle? Why didn't we have any cup of noodle? No, we didn't do cup of noodles. Interesting. I had a lot of oatmeal for breakfast. Yeah. There's a lot of oatmeal. Like if I wanted to go crazy, I would get myself some crackling oat brand.

Oh, that was like a big. It was delicious. And kept you regular. Very much so. Yeah. I was telling my son, I was telling my son today, when I lived in Brooklyn, I said I couldn't afford weights, right? So what I would do is I get Gatorade and I drink it.

I get like the big 32 ounces. and I would fill them up with change. Oh, with coins. And so I would do curls with my, like, gatorade bottles of change. It took you seven years to fill up two. Basically. And my son looked at me like, who were you? Like, what kind of life did you live?

That's the most, I was like, when you look back on it, like, it builds character. It was fun. Yes. Oh, I was going to say you were probably so happy. I was blissful moment. Blissful times in life. Yeah. You were like living your dream, working towards your dream.

Like that's, yeah. Of course. Okay. So that's their time there. And then let's get to the real meat of the episode. This is, this was like, like there's things that I remember. And then there's things that I will sort of came back to me and watching it because it is a very layered conversation. And it is, like, I think Kev comes with like great intention.

Like, not good intentions. Like, he wants to clear the air between him and his brother. Yeah. Like, he's like, you're my best man. I want to stand up and I don't want there to be anything between us when that happens, right? The only hard part is he doesn't know how. Yeah. He doesn't know how.

He is a, he's a, I mean, he's a recovering addict. He's a narcissist. Yeah. And everything is filtered through his perspective. His perspective on things. Yeah. But he thinks he's saying the right thing. He's trying.

He says, you know, I'm not blind. He's trying. You are a black kid in a white family. It must have not been easy being the only black kid in your school. I remember back to prom with Allison and her father. And he was a racist asshole. Like, I wish that I had done more to protect you in that moment. I'm sorry you felt alone.

Like, from the bottom of my heart. Yeah. I'm so sorry. Yeah. And he says there's a few is. like if you ever felt alone, or if his childhood wasn't what he wanted it to be, or if ever I played a part in making him feel bad or whatnot,

I'm deeply sorry, right? Yeah. And Randall says, that's like, that's a very kind sentiment. You got a serious case of the ifs. Yeah, it's a serious case of the ifs. And he goes, you seem annoyed. He's like, I'm trying not to be. You know, like it's...

If? Yeah. If. But it was like, I... What I enjoyed so much, and I hope the audience did too, is like, all right, they may be missing each other, but the intention is there. And I think it's being received with the intention that it's, you know what I'm saying? It's like, all right, I'm trying, I don't want to be.

I don't even know what I expected out of this whole thing, but like, I'm listening. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And I may need a second to sort of digest what you think is like a full apology, but I don't know exactly if it's landing that way for me. So he asked for a moment, I'm gonna go grab some mayor. And then Kev follows him outside.

He's like, hey, man, I just said, just give me a second. And he's like, no, dude, we've given each other too many seconds. Like, and I was like, I'm not mad at Kev. Like, I appreciated Kim staying in the fight. Like, not disengaging. Turning towards from him. You know what I'm saying?

Totally. He was like, like, what? He wanted to know, like, what did I do wrong, essentially? Like, have this conversation with me. Yeah. What do you want for me, man? I'm not a mind reader, which I think is something I've said to Ryan, Michelle Bathay. We've just celebrated 20 years of marriage.

I probably said it many, many times. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. But I appreciate him saying that too because it's saying like Randall, if you're not receiving from this bid for connection what you need, then I need you to tell me what it is. Yeah. Right. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, that's fair.

Right? Yes, it's fair, but Kevin still hasn't come far enough, in my opinion. Viewing this amends process, right? Like the idea of making amends is not just, I'm sorry. Yeah. It's a multi-level understanding. Exploration of, yeah. He hasn't done any work past, I don't want things to be awkward.

Yeah. You know what I mean? There's no excavating. It's like his feelings were hurt. He says his childhood was hard. Yeah. I guess I could, yeah, I could understand that. It must have been hard to be a black child in a white family.

A school being the only black boy. And there's a difference. And that should sort of like that kind of sums it up, right? Like that kind of wraps it up with a bow. That's what you were looking for. But there's a difference between sympathy and empathy. Yes. Yeah.

And the immense process is not just identifying wrongs that you have been a part of, apologizing for those wrongs, making it clear that you are aware that you have remorse or regret for those wrongs. But then it is part of the process. Am I missing anything? Right. Is there anything I'm missing? Okay. But the final process is what can I do? what can I do?

Is there anything I can do? To make amends for these wrongs. And moving forward. Yeah, moving forward. But he hasn't gotten there and he needs his, he's asking his brother to help him get there, which is maybe not the best, it's not the best, it's not the best way to get the result he's looking for. Well, because, okay, a couple of times through the episode, like Kev will say, you know,

I think we just saw things differently. And we saw that with the young ones as kids. Like, like, Kev's perspective is like, you're getting special treatment. All the time. You know what I'm saying? Almost because you're black to a certain extent. And like, I get sort of overlooked sometimes.

And when they're out on the stoop, he goes, your childhood, Randall, It was glorious, right? Like, you're always getting singled out or whatnot. And Randall says, like, I never wanted that. I wanted to blend in, but I always had to stand out. Because I didn't have any other choice, right? Right.

And then he winds up talking to Kev about his own, his racial blind spots. Kev's racial blind spots. Like, there's a thoughtlessness that would happen frequently and willfully in the dark. And they've realized that they get to. locked out, right? Did I say that already? No, no. This is what happens. They realize they get locked out because Kev is waiting for a phone call from Robert De Niro because he walked out a set before to see if they can reshoot the stuff. He's always looking at his phone or what have you, but he's left his phone inside.

Left his phone inside to follow him out and then the phone rings, they go to go back in, the door is locked, right? So they're kind of S-O-L. And after a moment, Randall takes a walk. He's like, do you want to get back into the house or not? They walk to Miss, what's her name? I forget. Our neighbor, Miss Palms, walk on Miss Palms' door. And interesting last name did you choose? Yeah.

Palms, yeah. Never met a Palms. Oh, neither. No, neither have I. Okay, that was good one. He says, he says, because I don't think, he says, you called me a racist. Kev says to Randall, he's like, I didn't say that.

Yeah. You said that. Yeah. Right? Like I told you you had racial blind spots. And it's interesting because this is a very nuanced and beautiful conversation that I think needs to be highlighted. A lot of times when folks think of racism, they think about taking a cross and sticking it in someone's yard and setting it on fire or like the willful, destructive behavior to hurt another human being based upon their ethnicity, race, etc. Right. There's this other thing that happens that is just sort of like an unconscious idea that like,

what I am is regular and anything that's not me is other. Is other. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's racism of the left. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

It's Democratic versus Republican racism. Yes. And it's interesting. It's like, it was almost. almost an easier thing to combat when it was so stark. Yeah, glaring. You know what I'm saying? If I'm sitting down at a bench in a diner

and someone pushes me off the table or whatnot, not to say that I ever want to have to go through that or want anybody to go through that, but it's like, okay, I can point to it and say like, clearly, if you took a picture of that and put it in the paper, you'd be like, okay, that's recognizable. I can see it. These other things that transpire,

the microaggressions, et cetera, the unconscious bias, it's harder to sort of like articulate and show to people because they're like, oh, you call that race? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. The confusing part about it or the frustrating part about it is that overt racism, violent racism, is thoughtful. Huh.

Yes. And the other is thoughtless. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's easier to identify. I've had conversations. I shot, one of the early, early films I shot in Texas. Yeah.

Was in a racist part of Texas. Yeah. Okay. You're in a town that, yeah. But I was literally in a town where the, the, the hardware store had KKK on the signage. Yeah. Like, like, overt. Got you.

And the film starred two black men, directed by a black man, written by a black man. And we were these outsiders who showed up in this town. And it was a fraught situation. Yeah, man. And I got into a conversation with a couple of young white kids in this town about racism. Yeah. And about how they were raised and about how they were raised and about how they, the black kids that they went to high school with were raised.

Yeah. To fear each other. Right. To not trust each other. Yeah. And so that's just the way it was. But it was thoughtful. Right.

It was intentional. It was overt. Yeah. And their parents were overt about it. And so it was easy to talk about. Like it was easier to recognize, obviously, yeah. For me to have a conversation with them about it versus this conversation that you're trying to have with your brother, about his thoughtlessness.

Yeah. Yeah. In many ways, way more frustrating. Yeah. All right. This may go off the rails. While I was working on a TV show, have I told you guys this?

Okay. Tell me if I've told you a story. There's a backdoor pilot that was being sort of developed for the show. And all the producers who normally aren't there for the table reads were there for this table read. And it was going to be like a buddy cop thing, a black woman and a white woman. we're spinning off from our show to start like a Cagney and Lacey sort of thing, right?

And evidently doing the table read, like they, things were going slow. So one of our main producers says in the middle of the table read, it goes, freeze or the n-knit's it. Right? And everybody at the table read was like, what? Whoa. And so then they just decided to keep reading the script. All right? They kept, they keep reading the script.

This wasn't in the script? This was not in the script. This was just like a comment? This is a non-secular thrown out by one of the main producers, right? And so they keep reading or whatever, and my man devils down. Freeze and it gets it. And everybody's like, I don't know what's happening right now. Which is a quote from...

This is a quote from Blazing Saddles. Right. Okay. So everybody's like, they finish reading the table read. Everything goes all right. And then my man pulls up on his phone and he pulls up the clip. He's like, guys, you're not remembering this? Like, let me show you the clip.

And so he plays the clip form. Oh my God. And then the women said like, no, we heard it the first two times. And we didn't think it was funny then and we don't think it's funny now. So would you stop? So I'm not in this table reading. I'm in every episode of the show, except for this one. So friends of mine come up to me afterwards and like, dude, weirdest shit.

I never believe what just happened? What just happened? And so this producer, after it all goes down, winds up. up calling me. And I think he had to call like every black person he knew and be like, I'm really sorry. I never intended to offend anyone. I was just quoting the movie. Like, things seemed kind of slow and I just wanted to add a little levity to it and everything. And I said to him, I said, you know what? I appreciate your phone call. He said, he told me he wasn't racist or whatnot. And he said, I don't think you think you're racist. But I do think and know that you

are thoughtless and that maybe you should consider your words deeply before you decide to just like throw them out like that. Right? And it was this, it was like a perfect sort of like what we're talking about in terms of like thoughtlessness and thoughtfulness. Right. You know, because I was like, I don't think he's trying to hurt anybody, but like read the room. There's also a degree of privilege that I think that he felt like he was in a position where he could and sort of like I get away You know what I'm saying? I run this show sort of thing. That of that.

And like there is like privilege from Kev's position too. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's it's such a, when someone says something is racist, it can mean a few different things. But it can mean at its root that like the things that you say and the way that you move has an effect on me that makes me feel. smaller than what I think I should show up in the world as.

And like, I just want you to consider it from my perspective. I think that's the real thing. And I think, like, when I meet, and I mean this sincerely, when I meet white men, Chris, that actually actively think about things from other people's perspectives, it's so joyful to be in the presence of because I feel like white men in particular, and this is not an assault. They just don't have to. Right.

Right. Like the world is sort of created. For them. It's how I go. Yeah. Women have to consider a thing from a male's perspective all the time. Black folks from a white perspective, gay folks from a straight perspective. It's just like you have to have a certain double consciousness when it's not constructed for you.

Right. So that when folks do it, they're just like, oh, man, that's somebody I can spend time with. Like there's a real sort of effort there. And so I think we get there with Kev through this. episode. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Oh, so as they're walking back to the house or whatnot, Kev said something and maybe, oh, it was often something Ms. Palm said about you guys being raised very well. Yeah. You must have really nice parents. You must have really nice parents. And Kev gives them a look like, yes. Yes. What she said. You know what I'm saying? I think our

parents are awesome, right? And out of that comes this conversation by like, dude, I feel like you're sounding kind of I can't remember what it was that Randall said that sparked that from Kev. And Randall said this conversation is like, dude, I am very grateful. But he winds up bringing up there are times in which I imagine what my birth parents would have been like and what life would have been like if I was with them. And he's like, you sounded ungrateful. And he's like, you don't realize that the idea that I can only express one thing is a prison into itself.

Right. I have lots of feelings. And I never was given, like, the space to express all of those feelings. Gratitude, probably being chief amongst them. But there's still other things, like, a sense of loss. He says, like, do you ever think about, he said, you said the worst day of your life was when they brought me home to your family or whatever. Do you ever think that I lost something to? Like, I lost a relationship with Laurel and William that could have been, et cetera.

And Kev is like, oh. And it's interesting because, like, in this particular. moment as audience, I was like, I see both. Yeah. I see both. Like I see that like for Kev is like, mom and dad loved you as best, if not better than me. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, how much more could you have wanted given how much love you received from them?

And it's like, but I still like- Lots of things can be true. Lots of things can be true. All at the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's complicated.

This episode made me think a lot about the feelings of children. Yeah. Right? And how children, when their world feels out of control, the only thing that they can control is their inner world, right? Yeah. It's on a therapeutic level. And so children will make a situation their fault. or more because well if if if then i can change me i can i can be better i can yeah i can be in control

of of of of that but the idea of allowing a child to express themselves and to express the the the vast breadth of their emotional world yeah and make it a safe place for them to do that is important yeah right we are currently living in in the parental world of that being the most important. The then resistance I had to that in my parenting or in my relationship to specifically my son, who is having a lot of big feelings currently, is how do I give him space to explore all of these feelings

without letting him solidify the idea that feelings are facts? Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? I do. This is a little bit of a tangent, but I was like, it was something I was thinking about where I'm like, if we give every feeling this five-year-old has equal weight, of course he's going to feel insane.

Yeah. Because his emotions are all over the place. And as he's feeling them, he's a little presence machine, like he only lives in the moment. He thinks this is it now forever. Yeah. This feeling is factual. Right.

No, it's real. it's something you're experiencing, but it is not a truth. Right. Yeah. Right. And so the process of that felt antithetical to the current world of, of quote unquote, gentle parenting or, or,

but it seems like it would have to be a balance as we are learning with everything. Yeah. You want to validate and not, and also say, like, there's still a way in which, like, you, Mommy, that we need to speak to each other. than a respectful way. Yeah. Right. Like I want to give you the space to feel what you feel, but you also have to be respectful to mommy and daddy. Yeah. And that those two things don't contradict one another. Right. Yeah. You can do both. I understand you're having a tough time right now, and that must have been a very difficult thing for you to have to go to. And that's still,

you can feel that, but you also have to make sure that the way that you talk to mommy, daddy, and EFA is with respect and kindness. Yeah. Yeah. And they'll go, okay. They you. I'll take it. They will. Clip that for me. Like honestly, like honestly, like it's, because I've gone, I've had that conversation with, with the big boy and with the little one is like, yeah, dude, I understand it. Like, Daddy was not on time for school today, and I know that set plans back, but Daddy had other things that he had to do as well. And I'm deeply sorry. And I know that you were frustrated. But even in your frustration, yelling at Daddy is not acceptable.

Yeah, it's not okay. You know what I'm saying? And the thing that Randall is asking for in this, in Kevin's understanding, is, listen, man, I know that these feelings I have are not facts, but they are still true. Sure. And they can all be true. And I need to be able to express all of them without fear of being othered. Yeah.

They get, so to just piggyback right on to that, they get into the house and Kev asks him, he goes, do you really wish you would never adopt it? And Redo says, it's not that simple. and they they were cab winds up going through this whole thing saying like look i i get that life was different for you than it was for me wasn't easy but i just don't see it in the same way that you do and so randall winds up talking about you remember that picture that you had like do you still paint yeah do you still paint what not because i want to try to paint you a picture and he starts to describe going to therapy for the transracial adoptees and this whole concept of a ghost kingdom, right? And the ghost kingdoms are an imaginary life if you were never

adopted. And he would say that there would be these two people who he would imagine be his mom and dad. There's the librarian from the local library who's a black lady. And there's the dude who used to do the weather. The meteorologist. Meteorologists from like our local news. He said, there were only two black people that I saw on a consistent basis, right? So I imagine what it would be like if they were my parents. And even in my imaginary life, right, I could never lean into it fully because there was a certain level of guilt that I had for imagining someone else other than you guys. So like, they would be there and then you guys would be right around the corner. That got me. Yeah. That really got me. I was like, this poor little boy couldn't even escape into his own fantasy

because he was like because I loved you guys too much. It's like, oh, the torture, the unknown torture. Because not knowing that like, because what he found in the therapy was they're like, oh, everybody does this? Like all of us go through this whole thing, but not knowing that, thinking that it was just me. And it was like, oh, am I allowed to do that?

Like that's... Yeah, the shame, the guilt, like... Yeah. Yeah. So, hold on. Goodness gracious. I took a lot of notes on this. So did I. Well, it was hard because it was like, then Randall said this,

then Kevin said that, and then Randall countered with this. I mean, it was, the writing of this episode, there was not a syllable wasted. Yeah. Yeah, it was really well. And so in this moment, Kev says to him, after Randall sort of explains this Ghost Kingdom thing to him, because I think Kev is actually even touched that, like,

even in the dream part, like he's still connected to it. And he says, you are my brother and I love you. And you're the only brother that I'll ever have, right? And there's this beautiful, just sort of relaxing. And Randall says, like, you know, he said the thing about dad would never be proud of you. And he's like, that's not true. Like, dad would be proud of you. And I think I think I consciously.

took a page out of Jack Pearson's book when I put my hand on his cheek. Yeah. Because I was like, I felt like, oh, this is a good, this is a good man. I should put my hand on stuff. I was like, that's an echo. You know what I'm saying?

And he said, I'm proud of you. You know, and it was, they had a moment. Oh, and then they hugged and I wrote, we needed it. Yeah. Exclamation. Yeah.

Exclamation point. As the audience. Yeah. It was beautiful. So then at the end of the episode, Kev's on the phone. De Niro is happy. Everything is good there. Kev asks about the Ghost Kingdom. And Randall says he still goes there in his dreams occasionally,

and it's still the same two people, and it's still you guys or whatnot. He goes, maybe I'm stuck or something. I'm not 100% sure. It's a lot, right? And at a certain moment, like Kev goes to say something, and then Randall turns to him, he says, the rest of the world can't say the ugly thing.

but we have to. And there's something about that thing that hit me in terms of just like the structure of our show. And I'll tell you what I mean. Like there's this thing that happens every once in a while where I can walk into a room. This has had much more when I was younger. And I was like, they was just talking about black people.

You could feel it. You know what I'm saying? Like there's this thing that was just happening and I walked into the room and like, all right, what's up, Carol? And I was like, what's up? You know what I was saying? And I was like, I ain't even go say nothing about it,

but you could just feel like the energy sort of shifted away. Yeah. But it's this beautiful thing from people who are family, who love each other at the core, that can, like, say things that probably in other circumstances you wouldn't feel like you had the permission or the space to actually do. And I feel like the show is this invitation that we said this before, Chris, just because it's awkward or difficult doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.

Yeah. Conversation, God, happened. If real healing is possible, you've got to sort of, like, say it. And Kev says, He admits to his brother that his being black was something that he had to deal with. And he was probably more jealous than he should have been. And I tried to take you down a peg. Yeah.

Like unconsciously. Yeah. And it was just like, I think that was what he, I was waiting for. Yeah. Like, there's things that you, like, feel, right? You just have to, the admission of it. Yeah. Well, because he's like, you are not just,

my smart successful brother, you are my black, smart successful brother. It's the acknowledgement of like the thing that would normally be said. Right. Because it's not the polite thing. Sure. Well, the thoughtless version. Like, thoughtless. Back in the 90s of like, I don't see color. Yeah. Well, that's not the point either. But that's not real. That's not true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, if black is not included in the description of me as your brother, then you're not paying attention. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's funny because, like, if I remember correctly, and I don't know how it is for you guys. You can speak to this for a second. I don't plan. I get a lot of people tease me. I don't plan these like sort of emotional tear moments, right? you just sort of listen to what somebody's saying or you're saying what you're saying

and you just allow whatever happens to happen. And there was something about receiving from a white man that I loved this admission of like, you know what, man, you being black was part of like why I did some of the things that I did. And I don't even know if he had to say, he didn't say I'm sorry in it. He just said what was.

Yes. And I was like, it was powerful. It smacked it in the most beautiful way, right? Family comes in. They get Uncle Kevin time. And it's sort of like it's over. It's like the admission, the conversation, like all of it. It's sort of like it's been not wrapped up in a bow, but it's like it's an ellipsis.

It's like, okay, this is an ongoing continuing. evolving relationship, but it was sort of like he gets whisked into the room in the way that Beth sort of mentioned. She's like, we're leaving in the beginning of the episode because if the girl see Uncle Kevin, like they're going to just co-opt his time and you guys won't get to have this conversation. And that's exactly what happened at the end when they came in. And there's the closure, the coda of it is Randall's sleep at night.

He drifts off to sleep and in his ghost kingdom instead of the. meteorologist and the librarian is Laurel and William and he sleeps with like a little bit of a smile on his face I loved it and that was that chef's kiss I was trying to think about what that meant yeah as far as what what what transpired here yeah that that allowed him to change the story go ahead no please What's your to know? What's your take? Well, it didn't occur to me until just now. Go for it.

Because I was trying to think about it last night. And the idea of, you're right, he didn't apologize. He just acknowledged what was. Right. Right. And that is a huge oversight in a lot of people's healing processes. Like, it says something about how difficult a conversation like this is to have, how complicated it is emotionally and spiritually. Because even in a well-thought-out room of

our city's greatest writers, it takes a 45 minutes of awkward relationship. Sure. To get to the real nut of it. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's not a conversation that just happens. Right. It's an evolution, right? And the things that happened are written. They've been done. They cannot be done done. They have to be acknowledged. And then the amends or what is happening now is moving forward, things will be different. Right. Yeah. There will be a thoughtfulness to the relationship, right? Which allows for the traumatized person to start reworking the story. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Like, he's been gasped. slit for 40 years.

Right. You know? Yeah. Like, by being told by the people around, no, you should be grateful. Sure. No, you had a great childhood. Yeah. No, your parents were perfect.

Like all of these things. You're like, I'm not arguing that. Right. I'm not arguing that. There's more to the story. But stop gaslighting me on how I feel. You can't argue with how I feel. Yeah.

Do you think that's what it was? That allowed him the sort of freedom to dream? Yeah. Like, well, so now it's not, there's no guilt associated with this kingdom. Right. You know, there's a pure sort of like, man, I actually know who my mom and dad are. Like, I don't have to imagine different people in the scenario. Like, there's a joy that can be experienced without anything else.

Like, because for such a long time, it was a, it was both things happening at the same time, trying to meld something together that didn't fit authentically. Right. And now it's like, when I go to this place, I can just feel the joy of being in this place. And when I wake up, I can feel the joy of being home. Yeah. You know, like that's, yeah. Yeah. The guilt doesn't factor in.

I don't have to imagine my family there as well. Yeah. I don't have to hold both of those things anymore. Right. It's a good episode. I saw David, David Kromer's production of Our Town in New York when it was running. And it was this really kind of bleak production. House lights were on. There was no nothing.

It was all in the round. Actors were barely in costume. It was like all happening around. And then at the very end, you start to smell bacon. You're like, is someone cooking something? Okay. And in the last 60 seconds, when the character goes home, these curtains open up and there's this kitchen

and there's this perfect family moment that was just like, devised. Like, every person in the theater just buckles, like, full emotion, literally moved, like, moved, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's how the end of this episode was for me. Really? Yeah. To see the three of them together,

and probably the last time we see those two acts, Yeah, maybe. Yeah. In our series, playing your parents. It was like a, I was like, in a way that they've never been before. You're like, this is, this is the, this is the happy ending. Right.

Yeah, man. It's not even the ending of the series. That's a great episode. What are we doing? What's, oh, the emotional support hotline. Are you about to wreck us? Lord have mercy. Guys, we're about to do our emotional support hotline.

I can only imagine coming off of this episode, what our producer is. what our producers have found. So stick around. We'll be back with more. That was us. One of our favorite parts of doing this podcast is hearing from all of you and the ways this is us has connected to your real lives. Today, we get to talk to one very sweet listener named Taylor.

Taylor shared such a thoughtful story about how the show helped her better understand herself, her relationships, and even the kind of family she hopes to build. So we thought it would be really special to give her a call so she could tell her story in her own words. Shall we? Yeah, let's call. Let's give Taylor call. Hi, could we please speak to Taylor?

This is T. Hi, Taylor, this is Mandy Moore. Like we were calling her on her house phone. Yeah, exactly. And we might have gotten her mom. And Christopher Sullivan and Sterling Brown. B. How are you doing today, Taylor? Yes. Hi, Mandy, Kristen. Sterling, I'm a huge fan. Thank you so much for calling.

Thank you so much. Thanks for reaching out to us. This is a new one for us because normally we will read an email or something beforehand and get a glimpse of what the story is, but we wanted to hear it fresh. Our producers kept it from us. So in your own time, in your own words, feel free to share. Oh, wow. Gosh, you know, I wrote this letter to you guys about a year ago. because I'm a little late to the This Is Us party. Okay. I'm a physician and I've been in training for like the past 10 years.

So I tend to miss major cultural moments and I catch up like five, 10 years later where I can just binge it when it comes on streaming. So I happened to binge This Is Us right before my husband and I got married. And it was such an impactful show to me because there are just so many parallels that I felt. drawn to the different characters. You know, for one, I'm extremely close with my siblings. We unfortunately lost both of our parents at different times. And we kind of are, we have, I'm the oldest of five. Two are from the same set of parents as me, and then two are half siblings that I love

is full. And, you know, when we grew up together, we, I kind of took on the rest of, responsible eldest, and I identified mostly as a Randall. So that was a lot of what my letter was about was essentially how, I think, watching the show back and seeing Randall's perfectionist tendencies and some of his overbearing nature and how he cares for his family, even though he means well, he truly, like, wants what's best for his family, but it's all kind of centered around what he thinks is best and that everybody else is in the dark. in terms of what's best for them.

I relate to that so heavily. And I think it was therapeutic in a way for me to watch that and to have those conversations with my siblings. Because I would say the biggest difference with us is that there's a little bit of a hierarchy because I am the oldest. So I think that we don't get into the same emotional battles that Randall gets into with his siblings because they're all kind of the same age. Yeah. But it definitely pushed some important conversations in my family. And I just wanted to thank you guys for this incredible show that you created that means so much to all of us and start so many powerful conversations. Thank you, Taylor.

Yeah. Thank you so much. What kind of, wait, what kind of doctor are you? I'm a breast surgeon, so breast cancer. Okay. Well, thank you for what you do. Amen. So there's reason that you missed the train, you were busy saving people's lives. So that's completely understandable.

What then was it that sort of led you to the show? Yeah, like what is it that said like, you know what? Maybe I want to check this thing out. You know, people have been recommending it to me for years because I'm just such an empath. I mean, I ended up in the right field. So everyone has told me from when it was on air that I would love this show. But, you know, they're like, oh, it's at this time on this network. and I never actually catch it at that time.

So it was something that was always in the back of my head. And I think it was, I know that it's on Hulu now, but it was on Netflix and it was leaving soon. So it kept popping up as something I should watch. So it was just one of those days where I had time to start a new show. And it was really special to us because my husband and I, I don't know how you guys are with your marriages, but we have very few mutual shows.

Sure. Like there's lots of my show and his show, and this was like an hour show that we would be so excited to watch together. And it was literally like right before we got married. So I say in my letter it was like premarital counseling because we were watching all the characters go through these trials and tribulations in life. And it was provoking all these important conversations between us. So it was such a special time in my life. And I'll always kind of think of the show and how it reflects that period of time.

So the conversations were between you and your husband, not so much like you and your family necessarily because you guys were watching the show together. Right. It was mostly my husband and I have been pushing my siblings to watch the show and they've seen a couple episodes and they do love it, but they're intimidated by the sixth season. Sure.

Understandable. Sure. It's a huge commitment. It's a big emotional arc. How many episodes is it all together? 106, 106, yeah. Something like that. Yeah, it's a big commitment.

We appreciate you soldiering through. Was there anything that you remember in terms of conversations with your husband that the show sparked that come to mind immediately? Yeah, you know, something that I talked about in my letter that was probably the most impactful for me personally with Randall's journey was his experience with anxiety and panic attacks because it was something I never really had growing up. I had like one or two that come to mind, but one that actually happened to me in my training was when I was in the ICU. And at the time, my dad was being cared for in the ICU. I was his power of attorney and like managing medical decisions. And it was very similar to Randalls where I kind of had like just this moment of shutting down

because I was at my absolute capacity. And I looked at my husband and like, that is exactly what happened that day. And I wasn't something. that I was otherwise able to put into words because I'm usually such a high functioning person. Yeah. So that was probably one of the more meaningful conversations that we had. Dude.

So how long have you been married now? So we've been married a little over a year. Congratulations. Our anniversary was October 19. Okay. Wait. I'm so going to ask questions, but I'm not, I'm trying, because there's anonymity and we're trying to maintain things.

I don't want to, like, narrow you down into, like, a part of the world. Like what hospital is, and then everybody's like, I know who she is. Is there, is there, what I'm going to ask? Now, Chris has something. Ask Taylor something. You guys can ask, and I'll just do my best to navigate the answer. But you're totally right because, you know, like, with patients, I try to keep my role completely separate so they can just think of me as their doctor. Of course.

So, like, I was talking to the producers. I'm like, I would have loved to FaceTime you guys, but it's probably smart. for me to just be on the phone. Understandable considering your job. We get it. We get it. Fantastic. We were just, we just got finished doing episode 513.

Yeah. I don't know if you remember this episode or not, but it sort of deals with the brothers, Kevin and Randall coming back into each other's lives, what have you? Have you had any sort of things that you've navigated with your siblings that caused friction that you guys had to have some repair?

air over. Yeah, you know, I did rewatch the episode knowing that this was something that you guys were going to talk about when you called me. Because I'm, I'm such a nerd. I was so excited to have a deep conversation with you guys because it doesn't mean so much to me. Yeah. So I, I would say that a point that my siblings and I kind of frequently go through that I think is very interesting about that episode is that you can grow up in the same house and have completely different experiences. And I feel like that episode was just showcasing how difficult it is to have that conversation to try and make someone that grew up in the same household as you understand the point of view of how you grew up and how you interpreted things.

Yeah. Because Kevin and Randall's stories are totally different. Their experiences are totally different. And I think part of the frustration, and Randall, from my understanding, like he held out for so long in expressing these things because he wanted to maintain the perfect family unit. And for like end of season four, like most of season five, I feel like it's kind of Randall's period where he becomes very introspective. And he almost rebels against that narrative. And he is really trying to rebuild himself because he recognized that that probably wasn't

the healthiest way to go about it. And my siblings and I have definitely had many conversations where just different things in our family, we remember it completely. differently. As a responsible eldest, when I was very young, like, the differences in our age groups are three and five years apart for the two siblings I grew up with. And I, we were like latchkey kids and I would make them dinner. And my brother has like the fondest memory of it where he was like, oh, no, you used to make the best pizza. And it was literally like bagels with like red sauce and like cheese and pepperoni's that I would put on top of it. And for me, it's like this very dark memory because I was trying my best to figure out how to care for these two kids with what we had.

But for him, he's like, what? No, those were like some of the most fun times. We would go on adventures. You would make Taylor's pizza. So even just like little things like that, our experiences in the same event are just so entirely different. You're relating it to it for someone who is like an authority and responsible for like nourishment. and he's relating to it from the same, like, dude, I never had pizza like this. My sister made the coolest thing.

Yeah. Like, you came, dude, you had a lot on your plate at a very early age. Yeah. It's understandable. Everyone has very interesting life stories, for sure. I think that that honestly is the best part about being in medicine is I say all the time, it's like, you know, humans of Newark, but in my office. I just, I love hearing about everybody's life stories.

Well, you are in the right field and we're all lucky for it. Your patients are lucky for it. Absolutely, man. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your life with us. Yeah, thank you for sharing your story and your life. And we're so glad that the show found you when it found you and that it was appropriate and relevant and made such an impact.

And it just, it means, it means so much. Yeah. Thanks for the letter. Next time we'll have our producer. We'll read the letter beforehand if you wanted to, but we thought it would be fun if we just. kind of talk to you on the fly. No, it's okay, because I read it back, and it's a long letter.

So honestly, you might not make it through. I couldn't believe that this was happening now. But it was such an honor to talk with you guys and to share my story and to just talk about how incredible this piece of art that you've created is. So thank you. Dr. Taylor, you rock. Yeah, Dr. Taylor. Thank you.

We appreciate you. Thank you so much. so much. Enjoy your day, ma'am. We'll talk to you later. I appreciate you guys too. Bye. Take care. Bye. Bye. That's sweet. So sweet. That was cool.

An excellent reminder to send us a letter. Yeah, right? We will read it. We will read it. It might take us a minute, but we'll get there. It might take us a year, but we'll read it. That was us pod at gmail.com. That's right. Or you can text us at speakpipe, right? Something like that. No, not text, call, whatever. Yeah, speakpipe.com slash that was us.

Yeah, hit us up. Let's those going on. You know what else I love what he said, honestly, is that, and this happens a bit where folks will say, I didn't watch it when it was on the air. People will hit you with something like, I don't watch network TV. They'll start off with something like that,

but then I heard about the show from enough people that it's there. And the thing that I love is that, like, when you are ready or when it's supposed to come into your life. It will. It'll be waiting for you. It's waiting for you. Yeah. And we'll be waiting for it.

We'll be right here. We'll be right here. And then you can find this podcast. Yeah, that's right. And we'll be there to guide you through lovingly as well. Absolutely. And you can tell the people who are just finding the show about the podcast. There you go.

We'll just grow this family together. Let's do it. And maybe eventually you'll be able to watch this podcast along with the show. Who knows? That's what I'm going. Crazier things have happened. Crazier things have happened. What's the sign us off?

That was us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions, music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da da-da-da-dum. That was us. That was a hate gum podcast.