That Was Us - Kevin & Sophie Get Married | "Flip a Coin" (404) with writer Julia Brownell

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 4, Episode 4: Flip a Coin. Kate and Toby adjust to life with baby Jack while Beth prepares for the opening of her dance studio. In the past, Rebecca goes to Parents’ Weekend at Randall’s college, Kate gets a job at a record store, and Kevin...gets married! Mandy, Chris, and Sterling chat more about this cliffhanger in next week's episode too...so tune in! They also discuss the changing landscape of TV after This Is Us, learning to ask for help, and, with the help of our special guest, writer Julia Brownell, what in the world "getting bricked" meant in the writer's room! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Go to https://OmahaSteaks.com to get 50% off sitewide during their Red-Hot Sale Event. And use Promo Code TWU at checkout for an extra $35 off. Minimum purchase may apply. See site for details. A big thanks to our advertiser, Omaha Steaks! - Brought to you by Bombas, One Clothing Item Purchased = One Clothing Item DonatedHead over to https://bombas.com/ and use code TWU for 20% off your first purchase. - Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long-lasting staples from Quince. Go to https://www.quince.com/twu for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:32 Discussion 01:02:15 Interview 01:25:53 Outro ------------------------- Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz, Rob Holysz & Jeph Porter Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of That Was Us, we are diving into season four, episode four, flip a coin. Kate and Toby take baby Jack to his first music class while Beth prepares for the opening of her dance studio. In the past, Rebecca goes to parents weekend at Randall's College, where she meets Beth's mom for the first time, and Kate gets a job at a restaurant. record store. Hello, hello, friends. What's going on, Mandy Moore? What's going on? Get a wide shot of our man.

Whoa, that's got to be some abs are engaged. He's got like a Marvel Universe level boot. It does look like Tony Stark designed it and I can just sort of like levitate with it, but I can't. Is that ice water that can flow through there? What is it? It's just air. To create compression because, okay, so it's It's a partially ruptured Achilles tendon.

Partially. Partially ruptured, which is, which means I don't have to have surgery. Great. Okay. It will heal on its own. But so the tear between the Achilles, you know here, so when you point your foot down, it closes the gap between it. So it can heal, which is why you're out of space. So you start with a 30 degree decline, right?

And then over time, like three, four weeks, you go a little until you finally get flat. Got it. Got it. Once you get flat, you can start weight-bearing rehab and exercise, right? So, guys, let me tell you something. This is a journey and humility. We were wondering. Oh, gang.

Because I think the last time we were together. Yeah. We talked about your ACL. Stirling, Kay Brown was talking about what you should and should not do after a certain age on your legs. Was that really? Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about basketball.

We were talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Movements. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Because I don't know the story here, but tell us, tell us about this journey that you're on. Journey into humility. My youngest son's basketball coach invited me out for, like, guys 40 and up who are playing basketball. I go. I was like, I play. I still play. I still have a great time. But this game was against, like, some high school kids who wanted to challenge the coaches.

And I was like, I'm down for anything. You know what I'm saying? So I get out there. I wore myself up everything. Chris, Mandy, your boy was cooking with Crisco. I had like 16 points. I was killing these kids. Yeah, that's how this happens.

That's how this happens. I take a step to drive around this kid, and I go down. And it felt like somebody stomped on the back of my heel with spikes. Like, boom, right? And I said, who stepped on my foot? Who the hell stepped on my foot? right and they're like i don't think anybody stepped on my foot i can feel it just admit it and say sorry i was just really i just needed somebody to tell me that they did it and i also kind of knew

if nobody stepped on my foot this is not good yeah so i was kind of like hoping please somebody tell me yeah yeah yeah was that what that pain was it was like i just crumpled yeah crumpled and so like I have a little bit of PTSD. Like, when I watch football or anything, basketball, a knee injury, because I've had the knee injury twice. As soon as it happens, I'm like, ah. And then early in the season, in the football season, the season, I saw somebody go down without getting touched.

And I was like, I knew, like instantaneously. It's like either what they call a high calf spread or an Achilles sort of thing. But, okay, things that I'm learning in this season. Yes. How to ask for help. Yeah. I don't like it. It's not a comfortable feeling.

I'm used to doing all these things myself, right? Taking a shower or a bath takes a long time. That's why you smell the way you do. That's exactly why I smell. You have to cover the boot. Look, there's only certain, into the wide shot, there's only a few shorts I can wear to get over the boot. So you're going to see these unless I buy some new shorts.

We're going to buy new shorts. I never buy shorts. No, and we'll work these things. We're going into fall. Let's face it. We don't need any more shorts. But it's all right. I'm fine.

You know what I'm saying? But your lucky wide-leg pants are still kind of in. That's just true. Asking for help, learning how to not get mad when people don't anticipate my needs. I have this feeling of like, people should know. Yeah. Yeah. I have that feeling when I'm not injured.

I hear you. Why doesn't everybody know that I am incapable? of most things. And just offer their help. Especially emotionally. And just like, you know, preemptively, just sort of like do it or whatnot. And a friend of mine told me, she goes, you're getting a sense of what it's like to be pregnant to a certain extent.

Where you look outwardly like you should be able to do all the things that you want to be able to do. But there's a part of you that knows you can't do it all. And then there's a part of you that knows you have to ask for help, but you don't want to ask for help because it's like, I don't want a burden and all these sort of things. And I was just like, oh, wow. Is that, do you co-sign that? I co-sign that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, okay, that is an interesting thing. And I'm just being still, right? Like, you cannot move as fast and you have to take your time. And sort of learning how to take your time and seeing what God, what the universe has in store for me in this season is something that I enter with curiosity, sometimes frustration. And then I try to remind myself that, like, this two shall pass. And you just sort of take it one day at a time. Wow.

That's that. That is very profound. Are you recognizing any attachment or panic around the idea of exercising as hard as you might normally? So, no, the exercising part is fine. It is the playing. It is, because I like to play. I like the flag football pickup or the basketball or to go out there and play soccer with my kids. And I think actually as I am on the precipice, I'll be 49 and a half.

Like, by the time this episode comes out, I'll be 49 and a half. So I'm just a few months away from that half point, right, for me, because I'm going to go three figures. It's just the idea that I have to give things up. Sure. It's tough, dude. You mean give things up forever? I don't know, Mandy. Yeah.

I don't know. I think you have to remain open and see how things are. At least there has to be a level of caution that maybe you haven't approached your movement choices before. Sure. That I think will be interesting to see where you land when you're healed. How long is the healing process? So to get back to 100. It takes about 12 months, right?

I'll be in this boot for six to eight weeks, and then I can start weight-bearing activity, and then it's all about the rehab. Yeah. And I've done this twice with this leg, and the rehab is everything. And you can tell you posted something on your Instagram one time, where you saw Sterling Brown's measurements on this is us. And he's like, oh, proof that Sterling Brown's not perfect. And it was my thigh circumference. And one thigh is big.

How long ago did I post this? It was a while. But I remember looking at it. And I was like, yeah, dude, because like, run my leg. It was in the costume department. In the costume department. Can you tell? Yeah.

It's much smaller. Yeah. It's much. And so there's atrophy that even starts now. Like, if you push on this, like it springs right back. If you push on that, it takes a little bit longer. Chris is going to get over. If you want to.

It takes a little bit long. And this is just after about. two weeks. Wow, that's wild. So imagine what that's going to look like in another eight weeks or something. Yeah. Well, thank goodness you're okay. I'm okay. And there's no surgery required because that feels like... And it's the left leg. I can still drive. The right foot. We were talking about that. I was like, how is he getting here today? Right foot is totally fine. You know what I'm saying? I drove my son to San Diego this weekend for a soccer tournament. I figured out how to hang my left foot out of a bathtub to wash myself.

It was very exciting. So bath over shower right now? Every once in a while I have to take this off and wash my foot because it gets grody. Yeah, yeah, yep, yep. So I try to do that every few days. But besides that, there's also a big plastic thing that you pull over the top and then you can sit in the shower in the geriatric bench. Oh, it's humbling. It's so humbling.

Oh, gang. Sitting on the bench. Just live into it, man. Yeah. And yes, it's humbling, but when you get to sit down in a shower, it's kind of great. Oh, yeah, I suppose so, sir. You're like, wow, I'm sitting in the shower. Why haven't I always done this?

Oh, God. Oh, wow. Now the mic is broken. No, it's back. It's back. Thank you for asking. I appreciate it. And it does mean a tremendous amount because sometimes I'd recognize that I exude an outward exterior of strength, right?

Whether it's my body or just sort of being a positive person and wanting to focus on what's right, right? And it's nice to be checked on because maintaining that air is more difficult right now. and the truth of the matter is I'm in a place of acceptance that I am not the same person I am the same person in key or whatnot but like in terms of ability

current ability to do things for self it's different it's different it's not forever right but for right now you need help yeah so thanks for asking

I appreciate it I will come over and help you bathe whenever if you need so before we get to the episode I want to put it out there I appreciate it. Okay. I receive it with open arms.

And it makes sense because we have a level of connection now. Yeah. Uh-huh. So, Sally came over to the house a month, a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago. A few weeks ago. Him, Cassandra Freeman and her husband and child, Sally of Rache and his two beautiful children. And we just had a little cue day.

Went swimming. Went swimming. Yeah. Kicked it. Had a great time, right? So first, like, real just sort of like, kick at time, we're Bair and Eva. Eva's so chill. I so chill.

This young lady can like occupy her time and just be content, right? Yeah. In fact, she would prefer it. Just let me be. Gotcha. Gotcha. So her brother, literally and figuratively, he takes up space. Yeah.

He's the biggest five-year-old I've ever seen. Yeah. Hands out. Yeah. And Bear's favorite dad is any dad but me. Like, I'm in this jokingly, but also, he meets a dad. Yeah. Especially a fun, playful dad.

Sure, sure. And it's like I'm not even at the, I'm not even in the pool anymore. Oh. Like Sterling and Bear. We're like BFF? Yes. Yeah, to the point I know you're getting to. And I'll let you get to it.

Get to it. But we were playing all kinds of swim. games. We were, yeah, diving for stuff in the pool. We got to a point where he, at first he said he didn't feel comfortable getting launched, like thrown up in. But then after a second, he's like, you know what, let's do it like, we'll start off with like baby throws, right? So me and Saul were throwing them back and forth, right? And so we would sort of take him sideways and throw him. And he would critique Selle. Yeah, yeah. Sterling, perfect. Yeah, just like that. And then I'd throw him back, and he's like, a little higher.

Not to the side, like notes every time for me. Oh, Dad. And then Sterling. Then every time I throw him, he'd say, that's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about. Just like that. I'm just, I can't win. Which is also fine.

I love it. I love that he connects with it. He can swim like a fish, though. Like, he can go down to the bottom of the pool. We have 10 feet on the end. He would go grab a rock off the bottom. His dad would hold his hand to make sure he could get it all the way down. It's very sweet, very cool.

Okay, we get out of the pool. We're about to go eat food or whatnot. And my man was in a state of undress going from trunks to like his other stuff. And he comes up to me and he goes upies, right? While he's naked? Yeah. Okay. And I was like, you know, I don't know if this is permissible.

It is. It's a moment where you're like checking. You know what I'm looking around. Is this okay? I'm not sure. And he's like, up. I was like, yeah, I had no clothes, I said, Naked Uppies. Right?

He goes, Naked Uppies. Naked Uppies. And I was like, you look like you're nine. He's a mask. He's so giant. He's five years old. But he's only five. And I was like, you know what, bro?

I ain't scared. Naked Uppies. Like, if you want to do naked uppies. Sterling looks at me and Bear looks at me, and I say, that's up to you, Sterling. I mean, I don't, yeah, I'm fine. So Brown picks him up, puts him on his hip. I got a cup full of cheek right here. Yeah, yeah.

And his anatomy's just. right up on here. And I was like, and this is how we go. Yeah. This is how we do. Oh, does it, did it like bring you back though? It was fantastic. I love babies.

Brown loves the kids, man. We had a wonderful time. And it was, it was great. Yeah. So I had to just share that story. Naked uppies forever. Oh, so cute. And what did your son say?

What am I say? Omar was like, I guess my dad does naked uppies with other people's kids now or something like. He was like fully like. Calling you out. It sounds right. There was a moment for everybody who adjusted Ryan was like, oh my goodness. Yeah.

We're doing it. Okay. Okay. This episode game. Let's get into the episode. Cool, cool. 15 minutes later. Please and thank you.

I was just saying to you guys, this next like string of episodes still live in that fuzzy area of like, where are we? What are we doing? We're in the trailer in Bradford with Nikki and Kevin. And we're, I barely remember work. with, you know, the icon that is Felicia Rashad. Sure. We don't remember the directors, like, directing us in these episodes.

Like, it just is a very hazy. We're in the full middle ground. Full middle ground. I remember, so we're going to go over 404 through 406 in this sitting, right? I remember 406 because of... The golf. I had to take lessons for that, right? And I also remember working with Miss Felicia because she's so generous of...

of a Thespian and generous is like, you know, however Mama C is supposed to make you feel, she's like, I'm going to make you feel that, right? And so she had, there's things between Randall and Mama C that were wonderful. And I was like, oh, you're trying to punk a brother. Okay, I see what's going on here. But there are things like there's, in this episode in particular, and I wrote it because it's Kate's storyline. And I literally, I said, oh, and this is where we meet the doucheback. That's, that was my note. Not to give anything. take away to everybody. But I was like, I

hate this dude so much. Instantly. Not the actor. The actor is great. A great guy. The character. Oh! Yeah. I can't not project into the future, like as soon as I saw him. Yeah. His little mustache. Should we just start with that storyline? Let's just start with that storyline.

Go into it. Go ahead. Because it's, it's, it's parent day at college, right? Yeah. And you're off, you're off to go meet. Visit Randall School. Randall. Yeah, it's Parents Weekend.

And you've invited Kate or assumed Kate was going to come. No. She wants to stay home and, like, she's eating ice cream and her pajamas, not interested. She's got a day planned for herself. She was going to go to the record store to buy some CDs, I guess, that they lost in the fire. And that is where she, she's looking for Nirvana. And that's where she meets Mark, who's, like, the manager, I guess, of the store. Something like that.

A young man who's the manager of the record store, and he ends up offering her a job after they sort of have like a conversation about music. Yeah. It turns out she knows about music and he's sort of impressed by her knowledge, and there's a little bit of a flirtation, but nothing crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And gives her a job, and she feels pretty cool about herself, and that's cool.

What's my man's name? His name is Mark, but his name is Austin, the actor. He's good-ass actor. He's great. He's fantastic. He was also on Euphoria at the time playing a very different character. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so he got a chance to come on to our show a different color. We should get him on. Well done. Yeah, he's fantastic. Austin Abrams, I believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was very, very good. Really lovely guy.

And so that's the whole of that storyline is that she tells you that she got a job later. Yeah, when I come back from the weekend. When you come back from the weekend. So you go to visit Randall back in the day and you're talking to him about everything that's going on in life, et cetera. You also, is this the episode where you tell Kate at the beginning? we need to get out of here? Is that the next episode? It's this episode, but it's the end.

Basically, when she tells me, she tells me that she picked up some music for me at the record store, which was very sweet. She got me a Carol King record. Nice of her to think of Mom. Yeah. And I think that sort of jogs this idea, I'm sure also not coincidentally,

like her conversation with Carol, with Mama C, at Parents' Weekend. I think all of that sort of spurned on this idea of like, it is, time to sort of start thinking about this next chapter. I think she looks at Carol who has her work. She just has purpose. And I think Rebecca sort of confides in her. Like I feel like at any moment someone looks at me the wrong way and I could just break. And I think she admires the strength that Carol sort of projects. And anyway, I think this just gets her thinking. There's no,

like, no one's going to give me like a guidebook on like what my next. step should be. Like, I can't, I can't wait for, like, a sign. I think I just have to, like, you know, make the effort myself. And so she comes home and tells Kate basically, like, I think it's time for us to get a real house. Like, this apartment has done its job, but, like, it's time for us to be thinking about our future. There's also a nice little directorial moment where the dancing is a cut to you and Milo dancing as you're listening to the Carol Kane song. And then you invite her to dance. And it's like, we need joy. We need joy. We need light. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like that idea of life is going to go on. I mean, we talk about it and

I believe the next episode sort of Rebecca makes reference of like, we need to be able to have moments of joy and talking about Jack and talking about that period of our life and not just feeling sad about it. Yeah. I think this is like the precursor to that and just the first initial baby step into like, we're allowed to move on and not feel like any sort of guilt around it. He would want this for us. For sure. But it's a really beautiful storyline and a nice point of connection for Rebecca and Kate. I feel like there's never enough of that for them.

And I love when there's just those sweet, just a sweet little pop between the two of them. Yeah. We'll be right back with more. That was us. Fall always feels like a reset. Schools back in session, works in full swing, but I still want to make time for the little getaways. I am so excited to figure out some fun getaway, maybe apple picking, some sort of cozy little cabin with the kids.

Like, right now it's all about making those memories and sometimes traveling can be very stressful with the family, but it's always worth it. My kids talk about the trips that we take forever. Ever. You're making memories. You're making memories, and it's so worth it. Yeah. You know, when I travel, I love booking a stay on Airbnb. It feels personal. You get space to spread out, cook meals together, and just really settle in. And while you're away, your home could be working for you, too. You can host your home on Airbnb and let someone else enjoy it while you're gone. It could be a couple in town for the weekend or family visiting nearby. People are looking for places just like yours.

Just like yours, Mandy. That way, it's not just a trip for you. It's a win-win. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. You know, with the holidays coming up, I've already started thinking about meal planning and what I want stocked in my freezer.

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you know that that that leads up to all that of you guys sitting down in the in the lunchroom you know that randals randall keeps looking over at beth obviously mom any attention yeah and mom catches on real quick and they they join they join them to sit down and there's all kinds of like great character uh relationship stuff going on between randall and beth there he he inexplicably until later takes a lemon and puts it on her tray you notice is that and then they have to get to class and you two sit to talk right right and i remember watching this episode and and and being like this is kind of an iconic moment between felicia rachad yeah who is america's mom right right yeah and what by my estimation and and it might just be because i was on the show or but tell me if i'm if

i'm wrong here but like the landscape of television changed while we were making this show Mm-hmm. Sure. In what way? In what way do you mean? In the way that television is consumed, in the way that it is produced, in the way that stories get told. Yeah. And literally, probably around this episode.

Sure. Like, is, I mean, this is when I started to realize, like, oh, it doesn't matter if we do 100 episodes. There's not going to be any syndication of this show. Yeah. That doesn't matter anymore. Like, this is not the Cosby show. Right.

You know what I mean? That's interesting. It would have been 10 years earlier. Sure. So what we have is, by my estimation, Felicia being America's mom, there's no other kind of television mom who was like that present in everyone's world. And the last great television mom. It's Rebecca Pearson, Panza. No.

No, like that's true. Because unless something radical, I mean, we were one of the last long-running, dramatic, hour-long. family drama on network yeah on network yeah and that's i don't know seeing you two sit together it like hit me i'm like wow there they are the two the two both moms yeah that's cool wow talking about their their loss and how they process it that is quite some company to be in but yeah right yeah i i love that yeah it did make me ask this one question when you were talking she was talking about like how do you how do you pull she You found out that her husband had passed away, too, because you'd been talking about Jack and what have you.

And she's like, my husband passed away too. And, like, how do you get through it when I? I have this job and these kids that I care about and just sort of like purpose that funnels through that or what have you. And the question that I had for the first time ever, what do you do? Do you have a... No. She never had a job. How do we move into another house after...

I'm guessing insurance money. Like life insurance, and insurance from that home burning down. Life insurance and, yeah, geez. And did you, do you ever, like, do you ever have a job? Yes, I think she does later. I'm trying to remember exactly the last few years, have been a blur. But yes, I believe she does get a job after this. Okay, yeah.

Professional baddie? I mean, they called she could do it. Just a pro mom. I mean, really she had to keep the ship right in for the kids. after. And if it's like what happened with my pops, what I remember is I got Social Security up until I was 21. So like all three kids would probably get Social Security up until 21.

And then like you would get it up until they were 18 or something like that. Sure. Right. But like my mom would just use like to pay the bills because that's, that's how we just pay the bills like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think where they, the house they move into in this episode after this is like is lovely. but it wasn't what they had.

Sure, right. But also, she didn't need that anymore. She didn't have three kids at home. And so I just think it's like a, you just manage your expectations a little bit. But yeah, she didn't get a job until later, until after this. I got you. It's interesting to talk about purpose, right? Yeah.

And the way that, like, purpose is the most important thing. Yeah. By my estimation, in people's life. Yeah, it's the driver of. Right? You can identify your passions in life, and they will, if guide you to your purpose, if you're paying attention, and you should obey your purpose above all else. I remember reading a book early on in Rachel and I's courtship that was about kind of healthy, healthy relationship. And it's like, I mean, even above your romantic relationship, like, because if you are not obeying your purpose, then there's, you become.

untethered and inauthentic in a way and it doesn't mean that your purpose is not to be you know an actor like there's what is there what is there in acting that is your purpose whether it's to connect or to heal

or to be a storyteller because there's a thousand ways you can be a storyteller if that is your purpose and acting is one way that you can do that or writing songs or whatever it is But I think it's so fascinating to watch these two moms talk about the power of purpose. Right, the power of purpose and how she, she has always held on, Mama C, has always held on to hers in a way that was almost a little detrimental, like a little too tight in the ignorance of, you know, Beth or her child's mourning or whatever. But to have, you know, triplets and to be like, well, this is it.

Like, this is my purpose to keep them alive at first and then safe and all these things. And now they're all growing up and gone. And now what do we do? Yeah. How do we figure out what the next chapter is? What the next, like, bit of her purpose is. Yeah. So what do you say?

Do we talk about music class? Let's talk about music class. So it's a great, it's a great kind of, opposites, right? The photo negative of Rebecca, who is kind of at the end of her parental journey as far as all of her children being out and growing and establishing themselves in the adult world on one way or another. And then you've got Kate and Toby who are brand new. Just starting. Could not have more challenges in front of them. And they are off to a music class with baby Jack. with his visual impairment

That's correct And it is stressful And there's now a minivan We've cast a minivan Yep Casting department got them a minivan Right on My first minivan

And there's all the gear And there's all the There's the stuffies and the bottles And the snacks and the strollers And the things and the bupah And off they go But the tensions are now Like

Even if even if things are being taken care of and they and they it's been established yeah that Kate and Toby who maybe don't do so well personally or as a couple with stress having a child it's such a great idea are now in it yeah yeah and they're off to something as simple as a music class which even even with a child Without visual impairment can be a challenging endeavor. You guys go to this class. You're a little bit late because you forget. What's the plushy?

Monkey, monkey, right? So there's a little bit of argument over like, how could you forget monkey? You're like, you know, things happen. We could have gone with Monkey 2. No, Monkey 2 is not the same thing. Or other monkey, other monkey, I think is what we call. Finally get to the class. You're a little bit behind.

everybody's there. The teacher comes in and just starts playing. Hey, we got somebody new in the class. Just gets right up in his face and he's playing. The sweetest can be, baby just cries, freaking out. And she's like, sorry, you just startled him. He's blind. And she feels like crap.

Had no idea. Parents should have given her heads up on that one. When you sign the kid up for class. First of all, nobody wants a ukulele that close to their face, let alone a blind infant. Yeah, it was a lot. Yeah, a lot going on. And also, talk to me a little bit for you guys because we've all had to live with kids on stage.

There's no faking it when the baby is crying. Like, it's just like, oh. And even when the baby's supposed to be crying for the scene, it's just like, oh, I hate that the baby is crying. Yeah, it's stressful for everyone. And so they head out from the music, from the music class. And I think we get, if I, if I, like, their real first fight. It's a good fight.

Because you bring up, like, you know. Like the tone is different. Like, they've had disagreements in the past. Yeah. But this car is like, okay. No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, you know the shift.

Yeah. Where it's like you go for disagreement to fighting. Yes. Yeah. There's an argument over, I said it was an argument over too much. simulai. You were like, why would you not tell them? She's like, well, it says, like, accepts kids of all abilities and everything. And you understand that it's coming from a place of like, I want them to be able to do. Yeah. Anything and everything that every other kid does. Absolutely.

Yeah. It comes from that place. And it's like, where I am right now with this foot is like, I can do a lot of things. And then certain things just take more time and they'll have to wait a little bit longer for me to do those things, but there are things that you have to accept. There's a reality, and we'll get into it in the upcoming episodes, too, where it's like a father or a parent can't just decide that their kid is going to be normal, like, or accepted, or they're going to get to do things the way they want them, whatever the definition is. Yeah. And everything has to be taken into consideration.

Yeah. And they end up going to the beach. That's right. Yeah. That's right. ends on a sweet note. Yeah. And that was, that was a nice day. We were down in Long Beach and we took that little cutie down to the water. A little dip. We got to dip his little toes in the water. Yeah, no ice cubes. No ice cubes. Just joy. But yeah, you could see like, this is where when we

talked to Blake Stadnick earlier, he was talking about, there was maybe a storyline of Jack being a surfer. Right. And this was the initial, like, him connected to the ocean. We should ask Julia about that actually. Yes. We'll chat with her later if that was... Because I definitely remember somebody saying to me at some point that you and Jack might surf together. And I'm like...

The two of them? No. Toby. I'm like, okay? Okay. I guess I'll have to learn... No, thank you. Yeah.

I guess maybe he doesn't surf? That is the beautiful thing about this profession, though, is because it's like, oh, so you're going to surf in the next episode, and you're like, I am? I am. So you call or you do whatever you have to back channels. I guess I got to learn how to serve. How to make me surf? Hello, how to make me surf?

Let's talk about Kevin Nicky. Oh, yeah. All right. We start off there going to an A meeting. This odd couple. And they find out, Kevin just found out some news that they're canceling the manning. Yeah. And he has a lot of feelings around it, unexpectedly.

More than I think he expected to have about it, right? Yeah. They go to the meeting, right? Yep. And they realize that they're five hours early or something like that. Something like that, right? Yeah, yeah, there's no meeting at that time. Yeah. And they went into Cassidy. Cassidy pops.

He's very upset that there's, like, she's clearly in need of a meeting at that moment. They're still talking about divorce. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so Kevin's like, well, let's go kill some time. And he's like, I'm an actor. This is what I do for.

Which is, unless you have this job. It was way funnier to me than probably most of the people watching it. Yeah. I can't remember the famous actor who said it, but it was like, they don't pay me to act. They pay me to sit around and wait. There's that, but there's a lot of hours waiting. There's also just time between jobs, right?

Like, you may get a nice chunk of change for a gig, but you don't know when the next gig is going to come. Sure. So half of it is just like sort of filling your time with things that keep you occupied, right? So they go camper shop. What did you say? I said, give you purpose. yes something that gives you purpose in between yeah something fulfilling they go

camper shopping yeah because uh kevin mentioned at the topic episode like maybe you get a new one maybe let me fix it up or something's like i got all this Hollywood douchebag money that's right yeah let me do something nice with it god bless this guy I love Kevin Pearson so much um so they're shopping for the camper uh they wound up he's talking about the manny again he has a flashback where the baby won't stop crying probably because they're right There's lots of little flashbacks woven into his storyline. Yes. Like, with him and Kate specifically at the filming of the pilot for the mani, right?

Correct. Like, I think there's a lot that sort of is heavily weighted on this chapter of his life and what it's signified, right? He tells Kate more or less, like, I started acting after dad died, essentially. Like, this was a choice that, and getting this pilot and subsequently everything it brought into my world, like, changed every. changed everything moving forward, changed his personal relationships, his financial relationship, like, everything. So I think there's a lot, there's just a lot that this sort of like unexpectedly brings up for him. He even says in that flashback, you're right, man. He's talking to his sister. He's like, I don't even know if I like this. Yeah. This was just something I did. Which I've had these moments. These check-in. Well, these check-ins. It's like, you know, you can get on an autopilot. You're like, well, this is what I do. And then I just saw that's what I keep doing. And there was a big upheaval in our acting group of friends back in New York because a friend of mine had this moment where he was doing an off-Broadway play and he was like, had this moment with an older actor who could barely pay his rent and he'd want a Tony, but he was doing this thing and he, you know, blah, and he had this moment. It's like, do I want to keep doing this? And his answer was no. And he applied to a bunch of colleges because he never went to college.

He went straight from high school into acting and ended up getting into Stanford and going on a full ride. Because for the last two years, he'd been an actor in New York and below the poverty level by paycheck. And so they paid for everything. And it caused all of our friends to be like, do I want to do this? Interesting. What is this? Like, how, okay. And the answer was yes.

Like, yes, this is, yes, this is what I want to do. do. And this is, but it's a valuable pursuit of thought process. To ask yourself that question. To be like, am I doing this because? It's all I've ever known? Yeah. Right. Or it's because I want to do. It's the same thing with beliefs. You know, people. Sure. Do I believe this because I believe it? Right. Or because that's the way I was raised. Totally. Or it was what I was given, what I was handed. Yeah. So it's a really interesting thought moment in the show. Yeah. I mean, because he's, even said, she asks him, do you want this pilot to go or not?

He's like, no. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. And then, like, back to work, right? Yeah. And what happened, okay, so it sort of interweaves back and forth with the present-day thing. Because they get to, he's talking to Cassidy about the state of her marriage and, you know, having been in war and how difficult things must be. And she kind of says, like, don't try to relate to me, bro.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. You got thought on that one? They're in the dealers. they're in the dealer's office, right? Because even though Uncle Nicky said, I don't want, I don't want your money,

I don't want your trailer. He's so wants to buy him on anyway. He's like, all right, I'm going to buy one anyways. Sure. And so they're in the store. That's right. Store? They're in the store.

In the store. Looking for an art, recreational vehicle. Yeah. And they're having this conversation all while he's being, you know, everywhere they turn on this day that the man he's being canceled. somebody's like, The manny, the manny, I love it. Can I get a photo?

Can you talk to my wife? Can I, yeah. Gina, the dealer's wife comes in and she's like, oh my God, it's you. And he's like, hey, Justin's sort of like his dealing with fame, the way he has Kevin deal with fame. Like, it's perfect. It is perfect. It's perfect. And I'll tell you why it's perfect.

And this is the most sweet and delightful thing. People come and they see you. And they're caught off guard. And they make a face that you know that they rarely make in life. And it's a face of just like shock and awe and wonder and like, this is an opportunity. And he just smiled. He's like, he sees the look.

Let's skip past the awkwardness. Yeah. He just meets them right there. It's me. He meets them right there. Yeah. We should get a photo. Yeah.

And you see, look, another thing, people fumble with their phone all the time. that I'm not used to this. You know what? Hey, look at this. Long arms. Yeah. Boom. Yeah.

There you go. Yep. He is. It's like he's made for it. It's like he's made for the moment. And then Cassidy sees you like, you have a really weird life. Yeah. Right.

And it's funny because it's only when my friends of mine who aren't in the business, when we're out and an interaction like that happens to me, they'll be like, how do you do that? And you just go like, you just do it. Yeah. It's just part of your life. And it's not even, it doesn't occur as much of an inconvenience to me as it does to my friends. Right. My friends will be like, dude. That's so weird.

Do you guys, do you feel me on this? Is that something anybody's clocked? Sure, sometimes. You've been doing this since you were 12. Well, I know. But I mean, but sometimes, yeah, I feel like it is more of an inconvenience sometimes for people around me that aren't necessarily used to that. Like, my husband, like, they get it. My children are a little confused.

by it, which is strange. Obviously, I mean, I'm like, I don't, they're like, why was that man talking to you? Or, I don't really know how to answer that. You don't? No. What have you come up with so far? I was like, oh, it's just a friend of mine, or, you know what I? I'd just, like, try to brush it off

and, like. Mommy's the shit. Hold on. Hold on. How should I? Bear, Bear asked me the same question, and I'd tell Bear, your dad's medium famous. Oh, that's right. Medium famous. How has he accepted that?

He doesn't know what it means. Yeah. But he's like, I'm like, you know, when I go off do my acting, some people watch it. Oh, okay. Yeah. That's, yeah, Gus just, like, there's no computing what I do. He knows what dad does. He knows what dad does.

He knows what dad does. He's like, he does the guitar solos. Like, he's very excited about that. But, like, me, there's, when I, when he knows that I go to work, it is just an enigma. Like, he has no clue what I do. Have you? you ever play it like Tangled or Cali or any of the stuff for him? Doesn't understand.

I was like, doesn't that sound like mom? He's like, kind of. Which is fine. Still got hope with Lou. Maybe she'll care. It's one of the most grounding things, though, because every once in all, you're like, oh, man, I got a billboard here. That's cool.

That's pretty cool. And then my kids go, and I say, hey, guys, look at dad. Dad's on the billboard. And they're like, we've seen it. Yep. Okay. Moving on. I think it's cool.

You know what? It's what it's supposed to be. You should find a board near your house and just for one of their birthdays, just put them up on a billboard. I should. Who has a billboard? That's not a bad idea. Hey, you guys, look at that. You're up on a billboard.

That's a really good idea. That's a really good, Sondland. More that was us after this short break. Gang, here's the truth. I'm picky about the basics, right? Sox, T's, underwear. The stuff you wear every day needs to be good. And that's why I love Bambas.

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Go to quince.com slash T-W-U for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash T-W-U to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash T-W-U. We're doing a cab and. Well, Nikki tells them what his trailer was sort of originally for. When they're on their way back from the dealership, he sort of regales them with this story of this woman, Sally, who sounds like the unrequited love of his life. And that he, before the war, before the draft, like, they were dating each other. They had plans to sort of drive cross-country, and that's what he got the trailer for.

So he buys this trailer, he goes to her house. and she wasn't home she wasn't home i knocked she wasn't home and kevin was like okay did you like wait a little bit he was like no he kind of just took it as a sign of like it wasn't meant to be like what the he's a strange bird yeah nicky pearson like you could have self-sabotage try it again seems right though it does like he's like oh well i guess she's not home like like off he drives in his trailer and parks it on like is this even his land? Like, whose land is this? Like, it feels like if you turn the camera around, he's, like, under, like, a freeway

overpass or something. Totally. So you just parked it here in the bushes and hoped no one would notice? Yeah, no one tells you to move. So that's, that is a good story because that sets up things that are hitherto come, right? Yeah. They get to the meeting.

And basically, I wrote in this particular moment, if anybody remembers anything else, Cassidy tries to apologize for making her, her man. crack or whatnot, and they have a point of connection. Like, even though I don't understand what it's like to be in war or whatever, I do understand what divorces and wanting things to work out in that relationship. And he asked her, like, do you want to, do you want to stay married or do you not want to? And she's like, I want to. And he's like, well, let's get your husband back, right?

He's offering to be a wingman. Like, I'm going to see what I can do to make that come through. All to bring this full circle, being of service. He's continuing to be of service. Yes. For someone else, outside of himself. Yeah. Yeah.

Keep yourself busy. And this all ends with him sort of talking about the manny and what worked about the manny and what ultimately helped the baby stop crying and the show sort of work was that it wasn't a joke to him. There was like a deep sense of sincerity. And it's interesting because I feel like you could say the same thing about Kevin, just in general, right?

Totally. Like you may think, you know who this guy, is he's painted a very fully realized picture of himself he's handsome and funny and talented and all the things but like underneath it all is it is a deep well of wisdom and a whole lot of sincerity totally yeah I said I wrote like he became a real person and that the man he became a real person like for Kevin and for you know in the character yeah and then one more level out for Justin for yeah like Justin is the same yeah very much and there's a line that court he goes oh okay we

Go with sweet instead of funny, which was... Oh, the showrunner, yeah. The showrunner, makes that little comment, right? And then Kevin, this storyline ends with him buying a trailer. Totally. For himself. Yeah, that's for me. And parking it right next to Nicky.

Yeah. So they're going to be neighbors. It's going to keep an eye on it. They're going to be buddies for a while. Can't keep an eye on. This is very sweet. I love it. Okay.

Then there's Beth. And Beth is about to open her dance studio. Yes. Very excited. Very nervous. You know, and you know, not used to see. and Beth be sort of nervous. Part of the reason that we think that she may be having some nerves

is because her mom is coming up to bear witness to the opening of the studio as well. And she admits that, like, you know, mom gets me a little bit off center. He's like, well, I got her. Yeah. And to be fair, from what we've seen in Mama, see, she gets a lot of people off center.

She's intimidating. She's intimidating. She's a force, yeah. She is so wonderful, by the way. Her play purpose just won the Tony for Best New Play. on Broadway, and we have some friends who are in the show, and she was the director. Wonderful show.

If you get a chance to check it out, started in Steppenwolf, it's on Broadway now. Anyway, that's just my slot. Plug for that. Dance studio, Mama C, is coming into Dajia. She's asking if she can hang out with friends. Randall joyfully teases her. Would one of these friends be a young man named Malik?

And she's like, well, he did ask me, but it's a whole group of people. We're all hanging out together. And she's like, well, he's like, he's okay. You're okay? And Beth's like, we got to meet him first. I'm like, yeah, that's what I said. It's so good.

It's the answering at the same time. Yeah, that's all right. I mean, we have to meet him first. Yeah, we got to meet him first, right? So we see Mama C, and she's just giving grief, like, from jump. Like, the looks that she just cut you to the core, right? And Randall's just trying to, like, take the pressure off of his wife. Like, maybe we give her some grace today.

It's got a lot on the mind. That's be cool. Are you telling me how to talk to my? my daughter, never do that. This is another dynamic of these, like, you know, Toby trying to marry Kate and navigate her relationship with Kevin, or when you're trying to become someone's new person, and their old person is still very present in their life,

which cannot be ignored and negated. No. But there has to be some new territory. The states, the lines have to be redrawn. Sure. The maps have to be written on. That is true. Yeah, yeah. They go inside of the dance studio and something is putrid. Awful. Just awful. It was a lot of fun to play that and like just look at everybody's faces as we were all taking in the smell. Turns out there, we think that there's like a family or possibly. Stop saying family. Yeah, that was so funny.

Maybe even a family of dead rats. Stop saying family. Yeah. That whole thing. That guy was great. He was great. Yeah, it's so much fun, all that whole thing. And in the midst of everybody trying to discover what the smell is inside, Malik comes, right? And again, there's, I don't know how you guys feel about this. And, Mandy, you probably got a chance to do it the most. I love young actors. And I don't know what it is that I just so much enjoy about them.

Like, there is a newness and sort of, like, authenticity. that like sometimes over time you can sort of learn tricks and so the tricks sort of give you a level of polish or whatnot but sort of you're like maybe slightly above it and not just in the pocket but when you meet a good young actor

whether it's lyric or Asante or whatnot and they're just in the pocket and it's real, it's such a wonderful like play. Yeah, it's joyful. Yeah. There's nothing jaded or too polished or precious about anything. Yeah. So cool. Yes. So the young man is like comes in and...

Same way Felicia feels about working with you. Maybe. Maybe. That would be very sweet. Just in control. Just tugging you around. But we're having a conversation and he's like, I got this, right? And he's making a wonderful impression.

Like very, like, good, strong handshake. Eye contact. You know, talks about what he's doing in school, et cetera. And he goes, listen, my wife and I have our reservations. Like, we're new here. Daj is new here. You're a young man who's a couple of years older. But the first impression you made was a good one.

Yeah. And I appreciate you coming down to say hello, right? He goes, I get it, man. Look, if my daughter was to bring some dude home, like, I don't know what I would do. And I'm like, tell me about it. He's like, no, for real. The other day of my daughter made this look. Yeah, he had this little flirty look.

And he's like, yo, bro, when you talk about your daughter? Is this theoretical? Like a metaphor, like a metaphor. And then the air goes out, he's like, oh, I thought, I thought she told you. No, no, I have a daughter. She's six months old. She's six months old. Da-da-da-da.

And you, listen, the look that Randall made is probably the same look that Brown would make in that situation. Like, yo, this is a lot. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, and you could see days just be like, oh, man, I probably should. said something for it um and then bet caps it yeah it's not a family apostles baby it's just when they give her buttons she's so good she's the best she's the best button ever she's like 50 yards

away it's not a it's not a family apostles it's just one it's the smile yeah of the like celebration of like okay total joy and as an actor you know that they've set up a camera and they've set up a camera and they pointed it at that doorway. And Susan Colette you're watching it's just standing off screen and she's going to do it three times in a row. She's going to jump out and say it and then hop back

and then jump out and say it again. And the joy on her face, she's like a Muppet, like popping out of a window. Totally. Like a laugh-in character. I was about to say laughing. I was not to say the same thing. Great butt.

So then we go. Beth and Randall were talking and it was like, no, we got to put an end to this, right? That's basically where they've reached. We can't be hanging out with a boy who's older and has a kid. That's not right, right? And then Mama C is like, well, you can't bring people here today. Right?

Like, the place is still stinking. The guy says it's still going to take a couple of weeks to get the smell out. You can't go through the wall. You'd have to go through the wall and now jack it up, right? Beth is sad. She's like, oh, dude, I got people coming. And Randall's like, you know what? We'll figure it out.

Mama C looks at him and he's like, bro, what are you talking about? Yeah, let's reschedule. Let's reschedule for another week. He says we are going to figure it out. He says we are. And like, he puts his big boy pants on it. He's like, look, my wife said she wants to do something. So we're going to make that thing happen.

You said stand around. Like back up. And then he, and then also, because he needed to, he's like, listen, I apologize for the tone. It was great. Yeah. But the message. The immediate apology. Yeah.

The content stands. Right. So basically, what you see is they decide to move it outside. Right. They start taking everything from me. inside, outside, decorating the parking lot and everything. And it looks like this may work out, right? All the

folks are here. Beth is greeting them. She said, let me give you guys a little routine dance. Demo. It was so cute. So cute. So cute. Real good. I was like, I would take dance lessons from her. I love Sue. Doing the little dress. Yeah, yeah. It was so...

And the smile. Like, it's the smile at the same time. It makes you so joyful. So Mama C and Rand have a moment, you know, like, look, I know you never liked me, and I'm sorry about this, but I'm glad things are working on. She's like, I, you're wrong. Like, I had a bad first impression in terms of just what she said, like, this is a family

and grieving. This is what she said in the episode to her daughter. Right. Before. She's like, listen, it's probably best that things don't work out between the two. This family is broken. This family is broken. And you need strength.

This is this episode. Yeah, this episode. This is all same episode. Yeah. So let me go back to that storyline, too, because. This family is broken. They're still in the midst of grieving. We've moved on.

You've got to let him move on, et cetera. She goes, she, Bethany in the past, goes to Randall's dorm room and says, you brought me a lemon. Why did you do that? She said, well, when we went out on the date, I had a Coke with Lemon. And I saw you had the Coke, but you didn't have a lemon. So I figured you needed it. She walks over to him and kisses my man sweetly on the lips. Let me tell you, I'm not Niles Fitch, but if I were Niles Fitch, that would be one of the greatest days of my life.

Because a woman who was about four or five years older than me. It's obligated to kiss you. It's scripted. It's in the script. According to the look on his face, it was. Yeah, it was the greatest. I felt that fully. It was awesome.

And also, nothing sends a daughter straight to a boy's dorm room quicker. than a mom saying... Leave him alone. You should leave him. Probably, you're right. Don't see that, man. Okay. And here I go.

I said this episode really is about the power of little decisions. So those little things, right? Yeah. If Randall hadn't gotten her the lemon, maybe she would have left him alone. Maybe she would have not come back and given him that kiss and that just opened that door completely. Yeah.

If, you know, Kate hadn't... had come with mom to parents' weekend and didn't get the job. That maybe would have ended a little bit better. We'll get into that storyline a little bit more. But it's like it's just the power of these little tiny micro decisions. Services. Yeah, that we make in life and what it sort of leads us to that I feel like is across the board. It's Kevin helping Cassidy figure out her marriage and like win her husband back.

Do you know what I mean? It's Kevin buying this trailer and moving next to. to Uncle Nicky and living in Bradford for the foreseeable future. It's all these little, you know, having that conversation with Carol that, like, kind of pushed Rebecca to come home and say, like, okay, we got to move. Sure. We need to start this next season of our life. A new chapter.

Yeah. Like, all, so I just, I'm interested to maybe talk to Julia and see, like, Julia. Julia, who? Julia who is the writer of this episode? Brownell? Brownell? Brownell? Okay, I just call her Jules.

Jules. Jules. We're on the first syllable. Jules B. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like she's a VJ. But I'm curious, like, what their thinking was with this particular episode and, like, yeah, what goes into the writer's room brainstorm for these sorts of things and, like, plotting out the season. Yeah, let's talk to her.

Let's do it. Thoroughly entertaining. We'll be right back with Julia Rinal. After these messages. We'll be right back. I'm not the first time. We can hear you. F, yeah.

I'm glad to see you, too. It's good to see you, too. How the hell are you, Jules? I'm great. I saw you looking so handsome at the Emmys with your cast, though. Thank you very much. You know, I'm familiar with injuries. Yeah.

I do. So, wait, Jules is a marathoner. And I remember when we were doing the show, I was like, yeah, I run. I average, like, around an eight. minute mile or something like that. I do all right. And you're like, I'm like, what do you run, Jules? And she's like, I'm around a 720.

And I'm like, jeez. Never mind. Yeah. Never mind. I take it back. Is that a sports injury, Sterling, or a life injury? You know it's a sports injury. They're the same. Yeah. They're the same. Sports is my life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

In our mind, we're still in our 20s, but our bodies don't think that. Tell me about it. I was saying to Mandy before Sterling got here that if if I looked in the mirror every morning and saw Sterling K. Brown, I would think that I could do anything, too. Thank you very much. Yeah, it's true. Very sweet. Very sweet. I would be out leaping through the air, jumping for joy. Can I do, I'm going to do a proper intro. I'm going to do like, ladies gentlemen, we are talking to Julia Brown. Now, one of the writers from This Is Us, she is originally from, what if I did it? Like, she is originally from New Jersey. Today, she's, She is a marathon runner, a mom of two, and a writer, producer, and playwright.

She is a two-time Emmy-nominated writer and was a writer, co-executive producer on This Is Us. She has been a writer-producer on other shows, including parenthood, hung, smash, The Path, and many more. And she is here with us today. Thanks for having me. Hi. You look so well. Where in the world are you? Well, so we moved yesterday.

I live in Silver Lake, but we moved. into a rental because we're renovating, which I hear is super fun. Totally. And we'll ruin my marriage at all. No, no. It'll come in on time and on budget. Under budget, probably. Under budget, probably.

Yeah, yeah. I'm just psyched to not be, feel horrible every day. But it's going to, it had to happen. It had to happen. Good. And you didn't have to move any kids or anything. So. No, no, no, that tire in the middle of the moving process.

No, no. That would never happen. They didn't ball. I miss my home and I shouted, you're lucky to have the home. Yeah, yeah, good, good. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's, everything's going smoothly.

It sounds like an episode of television. There you go. Um, we are, are obviously talking about, uh, uh, currently episode 404, but I wanted to ask first off, right off the bat that you started writing as a playwright. Yeah, I did. I did know that jobs. My parents. went to grad school for playwriting and my parents my dad got his MBA and he was like well I paid for

it because I I'm going to pay it back with my job and I was like I don't know if I'm going to be all paying back we'll see yeah playwriting for sure is it would at least be a longer road possibly to to paying it back how did that how did that kick things off yeah how did you segue from playwright to television writer movie writer so I was living in New York and I was hellbent against moving to Los Angeles, but I had a play that won a national playwriting award for the best playing grad school, and they gave it a full production in Atlanta. And through that, I signed with one of the big agencies. You know, we have those. And they said to me, do you want to be a film and television writer? And I said, sure. She shakes her head, no. Yeah, they're just handing. They're handing

those out, right? I always, I, when I was in grad school for playwriting, I, I always felt like I was getting told my writing was too funny and too sort of quippy. And, you know, those were in the day, this was in the early odds. So it was like, Susan Laurie Parks and Sarah Rule and these very lyrical playwrights and my writing was always just much more naturalistic. Okay. So it felt like a really good transition. And then they were like, well, you're going to have to move to L.A. and I said, I will never move to L.A.

That was 17 years ago. Yeah. And here we are. It's so funny that an agent would say, hey, I know you like playwriting, but would you think about writing for film and television? Yeah. You could write screenplays too. Maybe a screenplays. Literally anything other than plays.

Yeah. Would you like to write anything other than plays for their 10%? It's the monetization of art. For their 10%. By the way, I love, I mean, I had a play that was at Lincoln Center, and I sat in my house for two years working on it by myself. And like, the amazing thing about being a television writer is you are collaborating all the time.

It's like a team. And that, I mean, there was never more true than on This Is Us. We had a huge staff of writers. But, like, I love that so much. And when I'm not in a writer's room, I'm so lonely just staring at my computer by myself. Will you tell us about that process? Like, how did this is us come into your world and your orbit? And then subsequently, like, what was the process?

Like, bring us into the writer's room because I think we're, I mean, Sterling's well aware. he visited you guys quite often. Andy, you did bring by some vegan cookies. Yes, I did. And I, or gluten-free maybe. And I still think about those cookies. So it's good for writers. But, yeah, tell us how it all happened for you.

Yeah, so I had worked with Isaac and Elizabeth, our co-show owners before on a couple of shows. And they actually were in undergrad at the same time as in grad school at NYU. So I knew them from that. Oh, wow. I knew that Isaac was going to become a mogul at the age of, like, 19. He was already, like, full specs of shows, and I was just learning. But we became friends, and they asked me sort of in the middle of season two if I'd like to join.

And I just had my second child. So I had not watched This Is Us yet. So I sat with my four-month-old and watched, like, all of the episodes. I slept. And I was like, well, now I have to go right on this show. And I'm not ready to go back to work. And then my first day in the writer's room was in January of 2018, and it was a couple weeks before the Super Bowl episode.

So with the crock pot. So I just remember walking. A slow cooker. With the slow cooker. Sorry, the generic slow cooker. Yeah. So I remember I walked into the writer's room, and I was the only one starting that day.

and the walls were just surrounded with timelines, like all around the walls, like 1998, you know, 2008. And I was just like, oh, God, I've made a horrible mistake. They got to go back home. But, you know, you pick it up really quickly. And it was really exciting to be there for the sort of excitement of the Super Bowl and like everyone was on Twitter and, you know. But what we did, so I came on in the middle of the second season, but we're actually almost breaking our third season. So what we would do is we basically sit down and we say,

okay, what are the big storylines we want to tell for each of our main characters in the third season? And so for that season, it was, okay, like we're going to tell the story of Jack and Rebecca dating in the very, in the 1972 timeline. We're going to tell the story of Randall running for city council and maybe how that affects his marriage. We're going to sell the story of Kate and Toby trying to have a baby and going through the IVF process. And we're going to tell a story of Kevin sort of reconnecting with his father through Vietnam, through his studies of Vietnam.

So in the third season, we knew going in, okay, those are the big ideas we want to go through. and then we basically just sit there and talk. And I think that's like what the most surprising thing to anyone about a writer's room is that like, we just sit there and talk. Like, you know, and if, you know, Dan Folgerman and Elizabeth and Isaac are our showrunners, so they ultimately make the story decisions, but everybody's throwing stuff out there. And sometimes they're not in the room. And I remember we had, for the Vietnam year, we had Tim O'Brien.

the novelist, visit us weeks. And the first morning, I think he was, like, stunned. He was like, how do you guys make any decisions? You just talk at each other. You just debate. But it's such a passionate group of writers. And the thing about Dan that is really great is he is always best idea wins. It's not, oh, I'm the showrunner.

I say what goes. He always wants to hear everyone's, viewpoint. And if there's a storyline that someone's like, hey, I don't think we should do that because he really wants to hear it. And sometimes I think he would even like, he likes to poke at that part, you know, because he likes to discover like, why don't we want to do it? I remember going into season six, we had, we were talking about maybe Beth having another baby as, you know, a later in life mother. And the working moms in the room were so riled up about it. So sometimes come in and be like, so I think we're going to do that best storyline.

And then we're all just like off to the races. So that is the really unique and cool part of the writer's room that I think like, I think 30 Rock depicts it actually pretty well. Yeah, sure. Hard to know unless you're inside it. Was there a certain idea or storyline that you personally were championing or were any of the episodes that you ended up being assigned to? too. I assume that's how it gets broken down, right? That you were, you know, actively trying to

put yourself on? I love to write a rom-com. So anytime there was like two people meeting and just being cute with each other, like I always wanted to write that. So in this scene, it's like the record store scene with young. And, and, you know, later, I think it's season. I don't even remember what season, but Mandy, you're doing speed dating. and you meet that guy. So I love writing that kind of thing. And I always wanted to do that. Of course, I'm a mom.

So I always wanted to do the mom stuff. I was always trying to get Randall to run more. That was your doing. Look how that worked out. Yeah, look how that worked out. Exactly. It's not from running. It's not from running.

Yeah, I'm fine. Now, all of his tendons are degenerating. I was a big champion of the two. Toby losing weight storyline and what that did to the marriage. God bless you. God bless you. I remember pitching it and we were all like, huh, what would that look like? And we found that it just like opened up more.

You know, I think it was also so unique about this show was that because we had so many timelines, there's so many sort of mysteries that we have to unravel. So the stories just came out of that. You know, it's like, oh, like, it's. In season one, we said that Kevin got married at 19. Like, what's it been there? You know? Better sew that up.

Yeah. And then in season four, we get to resolve that. Or like, there was a whole chunk of Kate's life in her 20s that we felt was sort of unaccounted for because I think in the pilot, we kind of say she's just become her brother's assistant or recently. So we're like, hey, what was she doing then? And that's when the idea for her storyline with Mark came out. Yeah.

So that's like such a cool thing about working on a show that just encompasses so much time that's really unique to it. Yeah. There was a brief, speaking of little storylines and little nods, we spoke to Blake Stadnick a couple of episodes ago. And he was talking about how when he first came on that there was some talk about Jack being a surfer. Instead of a musician? Yes. At the end, we take Baby Jack to the ocean, and we were wondering if that was maybe that... The beginnings of...

The beginnings of his connection to the ocean. I was just looking back in the notes of season four and, like, before I spoke to you guys, and it was a total landmine of stuff that totally happened and stuff that totally didn't happen. But one of them was like, Jack's a surfer. Like, can we in episode 401, which was the episode where we saw Jack Damon, like, can we have a surfboard in his house? which I don't remember if we actually did. I don't remember either. I thought he said there was one.

I think that was one of the things that came up. Blake was like there was a surfboard in his apartment because, yeah. But then there's other storylines that, like, totally go nowhere. Like, I remember very early on in the writer's room. And again, I was like had a new baby, was dealing with postpartum stuff. And we were just talking about Kevin getting bricked for, like, the whole day. Like, like, a brick just rick falling on him from an overpass. and we were talking about having a traumatic brain injury and like I was like at all people we knew that I'd gotten bricked and I was just like wait is this phrase this phrase getting something else in modern parlance what is that you know this I don't know it I've never heard of it

what does getting brick mean to you something is it getting smashed no it means it means if a man is if a man is bricked up his penis is He's packing? He's not only packing, but he is currently in a state of of firmness. Okay. Two messes. So when you when you just said it now, I was like, what? Happened to Kevin?

We did not talk about that story. No, no. At some point, Kevin was going to have a traumatic brain injury? We talked about that. We talked there's so much because, you know, you have this time and you're like, what would happen? But, you know, Rebecca's Alzheimer's was something we talked about so much. And considering, and I'm sure you know that, Mandy.

Like, part of us was, we were just like, is it too sad? Is it going to be to watch? Is it going to be too sad? Like, we started that storyline. Yes. Yes. It's a definitive, yes. I stopped watching this show after season five.

Like, sad. But, you know, so those decisions are all so. So I guess we decided brick to. Too sad. Too sad. Alzheimer's. Allsems. Okay.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. But we talked about for Randall's character, like all that. So many, so many ideas. So many what ifs, yeah. Yeah, so many what ifs, exactly. Talk to me a little bit about the, in the room pitching like your ideas.

For you as a writer, is it a, do you have to learn sort of non-attachment? Are you always a little sort of sad if and when your idea kind of gets shut down? or you're like, ah, it's the way to cookie crumbles, like, talk. Like, what is it, like, putting it out there? It's really, you really, like, if you know it's a good pitch, you, like, kind of sit there waiting for a lull in the conversation, you know, to bring it up, and you're just like, and then someone else puts you something similar, and you're like, David Falls, why?

Yeah. You know, so it's, so, because everybody, there's no raising hands, you know? You're all sort of sitting there, you wait, and then you're, and then, like, maybe someone makes a joke that, like, takes it completely off the course and you're like, but what about my pitch? But yeah, so much of learning to be a writer in a writer's room is getting

really passionate about your ideas. Yeah. And then if the room, if the tide's not flowing that way, you're like, okay, well, I'm getting on board of this idea. Okay. But if you know it's good, how many times will you bring it back up? Yeah. So that's like, so there's all

these like phrases that you like don't, you say in a writer's room and one of them is not to repitch, you know, which is like, not to... But I'm about, which means I'm about to repitch. Exactly, exactly. Not to repitch my own idea, but... Yeah.

So that's like one of the like, oh, God, there they go. The same fucking thing about the brick, you know? Julia really wanted to hit him in the head with a brick. He's like, but listen, the brick comes flying in. Not to repitch. But my favorite... Brick to brick transition, and then we have like... There you go.

A brick flying through the screen and then he goes to the next run. Both the Brick's journey. Yeah. We open the episode with a brick flying, but we don't see where it's going. And we don't come back to the brick landing until the end of the episode. I love when they say, all right, the bad pitch is. Yes, exactly. That's my favorite one.

So it takes the pressure off it having to be good from the beginning. So the bad version of this is, and then they, like, give this really thought-out idea about what they want to. They're like, that's not the bad version. That is your version. One than I heard from the first time in this room was I'm going to pitch this in duck, which is like, I'm going to pitch something that I know is going to be controversial. And then look out for the brick. You know?

Like, maybe I'm going to pitch this in duck. Maybe Randall and Beth should get divorced. Yes. You know, like that kind of thing. Did anybody ever pitch that? We weren't allowed. It wasn't allowed. I don't think so.

You know, let me tell you something. He told me. He told me from the beginning. Off the table. He said, this is the couple that stays together. That's what he said. Yeah. Because Jack and Rebecca had their shit, had, you know, such a rough time.

Yeah, sure. And sorry, until we took the fault. Let's face it. I told everybody early on, I was like, even before I was told, I'm like, if anyone's getting divorced. You have the look at the first hub. You have the real look of our first husband. You have the look of the first husband. Absolutely.

I don't know how to take that. Yeah, I do. I do. Yes. Listen. You've got real. first husband energy. Yeah, yeah. It's in my special skills on my resume. You'd be a great whole parent. Oh, yeah. Very reliable. Jules has a wonderful sense of humor, right?

And she's very playful by nature. So it was funny. I was in the room this one time, and she was making a joke about one of the other writers. And I knew it was funny. The joke did not land with the other writer in that way, right? And it was a moment where Dan, if you ever been around Dan, when he gets uncomfortable? Yes. Yeah. How red? Dan turns, beat. Yeah.

Red. Like, I mean, just, like, straight out of the ground, like, oh, it's a fresh beat. His whole face is gone. And, like, he's the boss. And, like, he's trying to take a choice. Like, all right, guys, I'm sure nobody meant anything by it or whatever. And I'm sitting there. And I'm just like, oh, it's about to go down.

So how does repair happen in those moments? Good question. Great question, Mandy. Hasn't When there's conflict in a writer's room Your apology Because you know Which I gave

You definitely apologize The writer's room It's so vulnerable You know Especially on a show like this is us Like you're talking You know You're talking about the death of your parent

You're talking about your weight struggles You're talking about so much And I think like on a show As heavy as this is us sort of the banter and the joking is a really important part of it. Yeah. But of course, sometimes that can cross the line. And like, to me, probably wrongly, that's like where he went out when you just like pull the line.

Yeah. But it's sometimes you miss. Sometimes you miss. And, you know, I've been in comedy writers rooms where that has happened probably more often. And I think like a drama room, it's, there is a sensitive part. You have to learn, like, this is funny, my sister, my biological sister and I, I cannot joke with. My sister takes everything literally. And she's like, you know, I see how you play with people or whatnot.

And that's great for those people. She's like, but you cannot do that with me. And I have to just be like, okay. I mean, you know, you just have to honor that because she, it doesn't, it never lands the way that I hope that it would. And so I know why even try to enter into that for it in the first place. So you got to know your audience. You know your audience. Yeah, and you probably learn from that Sterling, and that's why you're so successful.

And I mean, well, keep poking the bear, yeah. You kicked it with us. This has been a delight. Well, you'll have to come back, please and thank you. What have you been up to since the show has been over? Where can folks catch up with you? Like, tell us what's going on post-TIU. So I wrote on the Amazon Prime series L, which is a prequel to Legally Blonde.

Oh, fine. It's really fun. It's so it's, it's, it's, it's L. Woods in high school. So it's really fun. And it was just so fun to take on that character. Hell yeah. I'm writing on another Netflix show right now, which is an adaptation of Dan Brown's newest book.

You know, the Da Vinci Code. Yeah, totally different sort of wrote for me with Carlton Cuse. And then I have a pilot with Bill that I co-wrote with Bill Simmons that we're just hoping gets the green light. Is it pop culture? Is it sports? Like, what is it? Well, the tricky part is it's football. I hear you.

Because Fogelman has a show about football right now. Starring, Mandy Bernard from the White Lotus is producing, and it's in the green light room at Amazon at the moment. So fingers crossed. There's a room for more than more. Yes, of course. Yes, always, always. If there's more than one cop show, there could be a lot of football show.

I also think you got Simmons attached to it. That's a strong sort of thing. How is he as a role? writing partner. He's amazing. Like we like he knows so much but he's also such a fan of pop culture that he understands how television works as well. So like we've gotten to do things like I was like I wanted to have a super bowl. I wanted to have like we had a legendary Super Bowl and I wanted to have like a crazy play that like that like was remembered from that Super Bowl. Right. So we just sat and watched like he was like sent me YouTube clips and he was like this was in 1974 when the

bubble you know what I mean? It's like having access to someone's brain like that for for a pilot it has been amazing that's pretty cool so rad dude you've been kicking it you've been killing it also of you guys come on we're doing all right we're doing all right on a little podcast thank you for joining us jul's it was so funny i'm going to hit you up about the rom-com because a good rom-com is necessary for your boy let's let's make it happen i want to do it i'm going to close this laptop and start writing it right now okay deal we love you thank you for coming bye bye thanks guys Thank you, Julie. Great to see you.

Thank you, see you all. Killer episode. Always, bro. I love chatting with Julia. You're awesome. You're welcome. That episode was great. It was.

I don't like to pat ourselves on the back too much. We kind of mark that shit. Yeah. Yeah, this is a free show. We also spent a good 20 minutes talking about Sterling's injury in the beginning. We did. Thank you. guys for humoring us. I appreciate that. It's a little behind the scenes. IRL BTS. There you go. You know.

Wow. I'm coughed up guys. You know what? We are. I'm caffeinated. Amped. Yeah. Amped up. Let go. Let go. Yeah. And as a reminder that this is a free show, please support our sponsors. Like, subscribe. Take a favorite, take a favorite episode. Maybe this is it. Maybe this is your favorite episode of all time. Send it to a friend. Be like, are you listening to this show? Why not? I still get comments from people like, well, I didn't know you guys were doing a podcast. You guys are rewatching the show and recounting the episodes for everyone. I say, indeed. And fair enough, a little bit of that is on us. We'll spread the words best we can.

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Smash it. Prick it. We'll see you next week. See you next week. That was us. Boom. Brick it. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions.

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