That Was Us - Laurel's Story | "Birth Mother" with Writer Kay Oyegun (506)

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 5, Episode 6: Birth Mother. This episode uncovers the long-buried story of Randall’s birth mother, Laurel. Randall and Beth’s journey to New Orleans reveals inherited grief, unfinished love, and through Hai’s retelling of his love story with Laurel, Randall releases the pain he’s carried his entire life. Plus, we're also joined by one of the writers of this episode, Kay Oyegun! Kay breaks down the writer's room experience on This Is Us, how they broke down important storylines, what it was like discovering Laurel's backstory, how she came to write for this show originally, and so much more! This is a Headgum podcast. Follow Headgum on Twitter, Instagram, and Tiktok. Advertise on That Was Us via Gumball.fm. That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Try Shipt free for 14 Days - Download the app or visit https://Shipt.com. Terms apply -Thanks to Article for sponsoring this podcast! Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit https://www.article.com/discount/twu and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. - You can also find Unreal products anywhere cravings hit, including at Whole Foods, Target, Costco, and other grocery stores Visit https://Unrealsnacks.com/TWU to get $2 off a bag of Unreal. Terms and conditions apply. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:42 Discussion 00:43:19 Interview 01:20:28 Outro Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a headgum podcast. On today's episode of That Was Us, we're diving into season 5, episode 6, birth mother. This episode uncovers the long-buried story of Randall's birth mother, Laurel. Randall and Beth's journey to New Orleans reveals inherited grief, unfinished love, and through High's retelling of his love story with Laurel, Randall releases the pain he's carried his entire life. One plus one equals more of the greatest stories. Hulu on Disney Plus

Stories about Our survivors Watch this is cool The most dangerous planet Family Retribution Murder Prophecy

Beer and propane The ultimate soldier Chicago All right The best of the best stories Now with even more from Hulu Amazing Have it all with

Blue on Disney Plus Sally, Mandy How's it going game How well how you guys This is a special episode This is a really beautiful episode of television We're going to get a chance later on in this episode to talk to the writer-director,

which rarely happens for an episode of television. Correct. Right? Kay O'Yegu, who is one of my favorite, favorite, favorite people who's been with our show from beginning to end. From the beginning. About to be one of everybody's. Yeah, she's so special. She's absolutely wonderful.

And sort of like, this episode, because it's one of those things that I don't think a lot of people saw coming, because if Randall is functioning as audience with regards to his story, like everybody knows that like Randall's mom died after childbirth or whatnot. You know, his dad took him to the, was overwhelmed because he was using as well, took him to the fire station, and that's when life begins.

Yes. But at the beginning of this season, we learned. At the end of episode one of this season. Yeah, it's 501. We saw that. We see, we gotta love a good, hard, deep breath from death into blackout. Do you know what I'm saying?

It's just like, you're down. The gash. And now I'm not. And you're like, oh, snap, crackle, pop. Rice Krispies? That is Rice Krispies. Thank you very much. And this episode opens with Beth and Randall in New Orleans.

So it's kind of like a direct jump from their conversation and episode 505 with hi. Yeah. Where he's like, you know, I would love to show you where she lived and what she loved like here in New Orleans. And they kind of are like, what's stopping us? Let's make it happen. Let's go. I also have to say. just on a personal note, I don't know how you guys feel.

It's one of my favorite cities in the United States. Oh, same. Period. There's no place that has the same sort of historical significance. Pride in culture, music, architecture, food, food, dance. Like, it has its own unique stamp, unlike any other city. The only major city in the country that I have never been to. What?

Can you believe it? I'm about to. It feels like I should have lived there for five or six years. Yes. Correct. Like it, I know. Can we go there? Let's go there. Family vacations. Yes. Christopher James Sullivan. I like it. I know. What's your middle name? Joseph. Christopher Joseph. Christopher Joseph. Christopher Joseph. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. It's crazy to me. It's crazy to me. It's crazy to me. It's your city. Like also just like we need to go on just like a foody bin.

I know. One of the great foodie places. Oh, yeah, maybe the in the country, I think. Quite possibly. Maybe we do a live show there. Maybe. Let's see how this one goes. Well, the first one always was great. Oh, oh, sorry. Sorry. Spoiler alert, we're doing it this weekend. It was amazing. Amazing.

No, that truly is amazing to me. I know. It shocks me, too. It shocks me too. And honestly, one of the great sadnesses was because we'd already gone so many different places during the course of the show, right? Whether it's Vietnam, D.C. for young Randall to visit Howard University,

Las Vegas for us. New York, like we're going to Nola. Pittsburgh. We didn't go to Pittsburgh. We didn't go to. We never actually did. We never did.

We didn't go to Philadelphia. Maybe we do a live show there. Yeah. Well, the first two are already wonderful. The first two are wonderful. I also pitched Dan the idea of the Pearson's having a family vacation. I'm like, look, modern family, they went to Hawaii. Why can't we go to Hawaii?

It's not a bad idea. I think the closest thing that came to that was, Kate's was the pool. Wedding. Yeah. Pasa. Possa Robles. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, sure. It was fun, but I was like, no, no, we need like a Pearson family, like the quintessential family vacation. I'm like, the Grand Canyon, like Niagara Falls. Yeah, the cat skills. Yes. But the part that we didn't get a chance to go to New Orleans because we were in the middle of COVID, so we had to shoot outside of California for, outside of L.A. for New Orleans. It all worked. It worked.

It worked. It worked. I bought it. It was all great. Just wish we could have gone to that wonderful city. Of course. Who wants to start? How do we're...

So this episode opens with Beth and Randall and them recounting the last time they were here for their fifth anniversary. That's right. They had absence. They had a good time. They had a great time. They made sweet love for... Six hours. She said five and he's like, excuse me.

Don't short shrift your boy. Yeah. Which is impressive but also unnecessary. Is it? Does that feel... Too long. Excess? Too long.

That feels like... the right amount of time. 90 minutes? Yeah. You better get a fist bump. Give me a fist bump. You know what I mean?

Like, like, like, six hours feels like, like, like, like, like, cramping? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dehydration? You know, you're going to make sure everything is, yeah, I understand what I'm saying.

I understand what I'm saying. I mean, we knew R&B were special. We, we have a good time. We have a good time. Anyhow. Anyhow. They go to visit hi, and he basically welcomed.

them in and says this house, this land was your mother's, and now it is yours. Yeah. Which again is just sort of like, wow, I can't, what, like, what Randall must be trying to wrap his head around in this moment, like so much information. Tons. Tons and tons. And he basically starts to tell her the story of his mother that she was a Dubois and they were a very distinguished family.

Yeah. And like all of this was theirs. That on the bank, you know, and we go back to the flashbacks. And it's similar to what you said, so, in terms of, like, the population of this is us from, like, TV history. Like, Chi McBride is, I said, Chi or Chi or Chi or Chi. I made this thing, please, sir, forgive me if I mispronounce your name, because I know you're from Chicago, but I don't think you say shy. I think you say chai, biscuits and gravy. Anyway, Mr. McBride.

He had a show on the U.P.N. that was like a big deal for a minute and then went away because he was like this historical butler time traveling. It was a really big deal because black people were like, is this the story we need to be telling? And then as like somebody in the industry

is like, hey man, a job's a job. And you're trying to find the difference between like what's it? Shy. For Chicago. Shy time. And so, but he's somebody who's been a staple. Kalita Smith, who plays Laurel's mom,

was on the Bernie. Mac show. Then her aunt is a famous Juilliard woman, Lisa Gay Hamilton, who won her Emmy for the practice. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah, yeah. So there's like all these people that are populating. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty, pretty cool. And you get this sense that Laurel is a bit of a fish out of water within her own family. Sure. Like there is an observed and proper way of representing this family. You know what I'm saying? A family of means. To a certain degree.

To a certain degree. But when mom and dad like turned their head, her brother Jackson, right? I think so. Jackson. Yeah. Was in on it. And was protective of her and also like kind of her like guardian was like, you go do you. Yeah.

I can, you know, maintain my peas and cues here and sort of cover for you as best I can. Because she would love to go visit her favorite aunt, who's played by Lisa Gay, who was also a similar kind of. spirit. Like, when I see you, I see someone, some people like to dot their eyes and cross their T's before they do anything else. And other people like to just dive in, you know, to life, feed first and just, their head first, and just see what happens. And she's like, how do you know? Because I'm the same way. Right. So she's got somebody in her life who gets her while everybody else is sort of trying to observe convention, right? Through the course of this relationship, We also, this is one thing that always gets me.

And it gets me because it's real and it's, it's emblematic, and it's seen on TV and film a lot. Because her relationship with her brother is a beautiful one, and he protects her. Even though he doesn't listen to the same music as her, he listens to Mahalia Jackson, and she's looking at things that are more secular, et cetera. And then he goes off to the war to fight.

And then the two dudes, in uniform at the door. Yeah. Classic. Every time. And it's every time because it's real. And you know, like, it's not good news. You don't have to say anything. I think I did Army wives, and we had to do that, like, a few times on the show.

And every time it did it, I was like, ah, shit. Right? Because her brother was her dude. She had two people. She had her brother and her aunt, right? And now she's lost one of her people, right? I think she then goes and has, like, another conversation with her aunt about, sorry, this is a weird question as I caught myself.

Do you guys say aunt or aunt? Yes, correct. What do you say? Usually aunt? Ant. Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I would make the choice as Randall to say aunt as well. Right.

Because he was raised by white people. Yes. And I find that white people say aunt. Say aunt. Yeah. And I say aunt. It looks like how it's aunt. It should be aunt.

But my white family members who are from the East Coast. They say aunt? Yeah. You want to get real black? Sometimes you say ain't. Hey, you're very. I love that. There's options.

There's options in it. That's St. Louis. There may be St. Louis. I was working with a first AD the other day, and they were blowing in smoke for this commercial thing, McGigger, and she said that we're wafting the smoke, and I said, excuse me, I said, what was that word again? She said, wafting.

I was like, that's one way. That's one way of saying it. Yeah. That's how it's spelled. I've said wafting. I'm sorry, do you go rafting? Do we eat a waffling? Huh? I mean, that's why the English language is so hard to learn.

It is a very difficult language. It doesn't make any sense. There's no consistency whatsoever. I apologize for the digression. But so what happens ultimately, like she spends time with her aunt, Lord have mercy. Aunt! She spends time with Aunt May.

She calls her Aunt May. She calls her Aunt May. Aunt May has a farmer's market. She sells her vegetables at the farmer's market. et cetera. And no, no, no. Sorry. Jumped ahead of myself. Trying to help her relieve her grief. She doesn't know how to do it. And this is sort of an interesting thing in terms of the introduction of ritual and how you can

give yourself some sort of formalized process, an outlet of like having that grief. And it was about going into the water. Sometimes I just go into the water and I let it out, right? She says something that I was like, that's it. That's everything right there. She said, God can take away the pain, but you have to let it go. Which I was like, that's it. Like, that's it.

Whatever, however you formulate that in your personal experience, that's it. Yeah. And it's beautiful too, because you see that the water and these two women are connected. When she's the youngest version, she's about to go. I was about to go for swim, you want to come with me, and you see her out in the water with her, aren't holding her up in the water. And this is, I'm sure you guys are vaguely familiar. Black women, hair, water, it's a thing.

Sure. It's a thing. It's a reason why oftentimes they try to stay out of the water because when I go into this water, this means hours of stuff that I have to do, especially if you are accustomed in a family like the Dubois of maintaining straight hair as an idea of a standardized, A method of showing beauty and wealth and the short-up. And that's why when she goes to the waterway and comes back, we see an old girl with her hair just like out.

And then the hot comb and like, ooh, I'm going to tell you something. I see my little cousins who are girls have to get their head down. I was like, I'm so glad I'm a dude. Because if I need to, I can just cut this crap off and just start over again. You know what I'm saying? Like it's a whole thing. Yeah. So she goes back into the water and you can,

hear her riddley, she sort of yells and screams for the first time. And there's a lightness that I think she's able to attain by virtue of allowing that scream to happen. Next thing we know, we see them is at the farmer's market. Is this when it happens? And we see for the first time? He jumps in the water. Is that happened first? Yeah. That happens first. Yeah. Because he, my timeline is all mixed up because I divided it initially and then it was just like it all, because Haie is telling the story, it sort of all blends together between the past and present. I got you, I got you.

But you're right. We see her again as like Jennifer version, like out in the water. Young Laurel. Young Laurel, enjoying the water, what have you. And now we know we have this Vietnamese cat who has come from Vietnam because they said that New Orleans, the temperature, the environment is very similar. So there's a big Vietnamese population there. And so he's doing this fisherman thing, doing this thing.

And he sees someone in the water and he thinks that... He hears them screaming? Maybe she's drowning. Yeah, so my man... Let me tell you, like, if you're going to fall in love with the Vietnamese, man, I was like, I get it. My man took off his shirt and he's like, I'm going. I'm going in there. I'm going to save him.

Captain, save him right now. Goes in there. And she's like, what are you doing? I'm not drowning. I'm not drowning. I'm not drowning. And he's like, I'm trying to help you out. You're thrashing around screaming in the water.

What's the person's supposed to do? You know what I'm saying? Like, pardon me for jumping to conclusions. More that was us after this short break. This episode is brought to you by Article. If you listen to this show, then you are well aware. And if you watch this show, you're more aware. You are very well aware that all of this furniture is Article.

Article. Article has made it easy for us to design the space for the podcast. And they can make it easy for you to set up a kind of long, lasting home with a kind of curated vibe. Yeah, they curate a range of mid-century, modern and coastal and Scandy-inspired pieces that shine, and they pair seamlessly with other article products. You can mix and match. Yeah, that's right.

You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Take one thing from one area, from another, put it all together. Boom. We've ordered a bunch of stuff off of the website, not only for the podcast, but for our home. And you kind of can't go wrong. Yeah. Like you can pick anything, and it all goes, even if they're different styles.

But everything, regardless of what you get, is top quality. The consistency of the quality across the board is top-notch. And if you have a question or you need help with your design choices, Article has a customer care team that is available seven days a week. They offer knowledgeable support and even free interior design help. It's fast. It's affordable. Shipping and assembly.

It's all good, man. I'm happy. They have support for your shipping. They have support for assembly. There's a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. All right. The article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, you guys can visit article.com slash TWU, and the discount will automatically be applied at checkout.

I'm going to say it one more time, y'all. That's article.com slash TWU for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. As a father of a five-year-old and a three-year-old, these days sometimes are long. So you want to know how I treat myself at the end of every day? I sit down on the couch with my beautiful wife, a nice cold beverage, and something sweet to eat. A little sweet treat? A little sweet treat. What's your favorite sweet treat these days?

And what I have been getting recently, I crack open a bag of my unreal dark chocolate peanut butter cups. Yes, sir. The best. And I have one, maybe two, if I've been a real good boy. Come on. You deserve it. You deserve it. It's a daily.

I look forward to it. Yeah. Unreal is on a mission to undiress. junk the world, starting with chocolate. So our vision for the future is a world where all food is 100% real. And they are committed to making products with way less sugar and simple, real ingredients. But they'll never make anything that doesn't truly taste delicious. I can attest, we all can attest to it.

Everything Unreal makes is fair trade certified, gluten-free, non-GMO, and kosher. All right? Unreal. Unreal. Unreal. You can also find Unreal products anywhere. Cravings hit, including at Whole Foods, Target, Costco, and other grocery stores. As a special offer for our listeners, visit unreal snacks.com slash TWU to get $2 off a bag of Unreal. Terms and conditions apply.

This episode is brought to you by article. If you listen to this show, then you are well aware. And if you watch this show, you're more aware. You are very well aware that all of this furniture is our show. article. Article has made it easy for us to design the space for the podcast, and they can make it easy for you to set up a kind of long-lasting home with a kind of curated vibe. Yeah, they curate a range of mid-century, modern and coastal and Scandy-inspired pieces

that shine, and they pair seamlessly with other article products. You can mix and match. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? That's kind of the whole point. Take one thing from one area, from another, put it all together, boom. We've ordered a bunch of stuff off of the website. site, not only for the podcast, but for our home. And you kind of can't go wrong. Like you can pick anything, and it all goes, even if they're different styles. But everything, regardless of what

you get, is top quality. The consistency of the quality across the board is top notch. And if you have a question or you need help with your design choices, article has a customer care team that is available seven days a week. They offer knowledgeable support and even free interior design help. It's fast. It's affordable. Shipping and the assembly. It's all good, man. I'm happy. They have support for your shipping. They have support for assembly. There's a 30-day satisfaction guarantee.

All right. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, you guys can visit article.com slash TWU, and the discount will automatically be applied at checkout. I'm going to say it one more time, y'all. That's article.com slash TWU for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. I've been looking ahead of my calendar and realizing how much spring travel sneaks up on you, especially because February is a short month.

Sneaky, sneaky. It's not always a big vacation. Sometimes it's work, family visits, or just getting out of town for a few days. I know I got to do some traveling for the season two premiere of Paradise. Lots of travel there for promotion, et cetera, et cetera. We are getting ready for spring break. It's going to be here before you know it. And you better bet that I'll be.

I am going to be counting on Airbnb to help us find the best place with a washer and dryer and a kitchen and bathrooms and bathtubs and all the things that you need when you're traveling with three children. Yeah, we're trying to get up to the mountains with the kids with all this fresh snow, go up to Lake Arrowhead, and we have been delaying our booking. But luckily, Airbnb has plenty of options for us to investigate. And while you're off on those trips, your home is usually just sitting empty. That's where hosting your home on Airbnb can be a smart, practical way to make the most of your space. And now hosting is easier than ever with Airbnb's co-host network, where you can hire a local co-host who already has hosting experience to help handle things while you're away. A co-host can help manage reservations, message guests, and be there in person, so everything runs smoothly.

And when you're traveling as a family, the last thing you want is to be distracted by what's happening back home. Having a trusted co-host means you can actually be. present on your trip, focused on your family, knowing your home and your guests are in good hands. With a co-host, you have peace of mind knowing someone local has eyes on your home and your guests, so you can relax, unplug, and enjoy being away. If you've considered hosting, but maybe need some help, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. As a father of a five-year-old and a three-year-old, these days sometimes are long. So you want to know how I treat myself at the end of every day? down on the couch with my beautiful wife, a nice cold beverage, and something sweet to eat.

A little sweet treat? A little sweet treat? What's your favorite sweet treat these days? What I have been getting recently? Yeah. I crack open a bag of my unreal dark chocolate peanut butter cups. Yes, sir. The best.

And I have one, maybe two, if I've been a real good boy. Come on. You deserve it. You deserve it. It's a daily. I look forward to it. Yeah. Unreal is on a mission to unjunk the world.

starting with chocolate. So our vision for the future is a world where all food is 100% real. And they are committed to making products with way less sugar and simple, real ingredients. But they'll never make anything

that doesn't truly taste delicious. I can attest, we all can attest to it. Everything Unreal makes is fair trade certified, gluten-free, non-GMO, and kosher. All right? Unreal. Unreal. Delicious, man. You can also find Unreal products anywhere

cravings hit, including at Whole Foods, Target, Costco, and other grocery stores. As a special offer for our listeners, visit unreal snacks.com slash TWU to get $2 off a bag of of unreal. Terms and conditions apply. Next thing we see them at the farmer's market. And this, if you clock Lisa Gay Hamilton's face, when they see each other because they see each other outside of the water and it's sort of like this like,

oh, I like what I see and I like what I see too. And Lisa Gay is like, huh? Like what's good? You know what I say? She said, oh, here we go. She had the best. Look, it was priceless.

So Laurel goes over and she says, hey, you're the guy from the boat. And then I think she understands like he doesn't speak English, right? And so it's this beautiful, I love when people have to work to communicate. Yeah, and like just still down

just the very core of what they're trying to communicate. You know what I'm saying? One of the best nights Rachel and I have ever had together as a couple. I had a buddy. We were in Rome. We were there by ourselves. And my buddy says, you should meet up with my cousin and his girlfriend.

We said, great. We meet up with his, we're on Vespas. We meet up with his cousin and his girlfriend. Yeah. neither one of them speak any English. Bono Schada. He speaks Italian. She speaks Spanish.

She's Spanish. Okay. So he is speaking Italian to her. She is speaking to me and Spanish, which I speak enough of to get. Sure. And we ate pizza and ate tiramisu and drank wine for like five hours. Road around the city to different spots. This is great.

And just it took us, it took us 20, 30 minutes. to get through two or three sentences. Yeah. And nobody cared. And it was just what it was going to be. I love that. And it was just like the most romantic, like bizarre pairing of people. I love that.

But I love that. The tension, right? Yes. You have to work for it. You got to work for it, man. And when it's worth working through, it doesn't matter. Yeah, you have the patience. So you see them working through. Like she said, I wasn't drowning.

She does a whole thing about, oh, no, she does the whole thing about cooking. She's like, I don't cook. She's like, right. I can't cook. You know, we do. die. And so he just says simply, it's like, well, I cook. You eat. You eat. And the next thing we see is them, I didn't know they was going to do it like a fireside, eat out by the lake. But I say, that's how we're going to do it.

Yeah. And it's just like they're dancing and the vibe. And it's just like, oh, I'm falling in love. This makes sense. It feels good. Now, unbeknownst to us, it seems as if like, um, pronounced, unbeknownst. Benounced, bonounced? How do you, I do, I do benounced. I do benounced. Benoanced. You did benounced. All right. Moving on. There it is.

Glad that was clarified. There's a lot of them. I'm saying we're on this kick. Yes, we are. Yes, we are. Stick with it. This is good. I think this is going to be coming to a sentence.

Unbeknownst. To us, Laurel has a boyfriend. Yeah. She has a boyfriend. In this segment of potato potato. Marcus? Is it Marcus? Something like that.

Marshall. I had Marr. I had the Marr. You got it. You and Marr. And Marr. Marshall went to Laurel's

father and they work together at the bank. Correct. And he's going to propose to her. He's going to propose. But like, it's funny because I think even was it before the proposal or after you let me know, like we see Marshall one time. He seems like a good young man. Yes. About as square as he can be. And there's no chemistry. Chemistry at all whatsoever. And like the side is like we see them like in bed. We see hi and Laurel in bed together. And it's just like she tells him for the first time in Vietnamese like, I love you. And he says it back to her. And she's like, what's that mean? He goes, I love you

too. And it's like, okay. So those two things are happening at the same time. Next thing, you know, she comes home. Oh, dad, he's like, where have you been? He's like, you know, my studies. I got to keep up with stuff. My girlfriend's house. Yeah. You know, she's like, yeah, well, Marshall says he hasn't seen much of you either. You know, he got a promotion at the bank, and he asked for your hand in marriage, and I said yes. And so if he comes over tonight and he proposes, I expect you to say yes. Right. So there's not options, which I think the writers necessarily had to do because she's in a rock and a hard place. If she stays now, because she goes too high and says, look, I got to go. If I stay here, I'm going to live a life fundamentally that's not mine.

It's his and I don't want it. And I want my life, basically. So let's leave together. And he's like, I got my parents here. You know what I'm an obligation to that? I have an obligation. like I can't really leave them, but you can stay with me. And she's like, no, I can't have my cake and eat it to in this situation.

So they have to leave each other's lives, right? And it's funny because in the midst of all this, like you said, Mandy, we're like, hi is telling Randall and Beth the whole story. He's like, so that's when he met my dad. Like, Randall's all good on the past part, but he's like, I need to know, like, how, like two things like how did she die like if it didn't happen in this particular session and now that she lived or whatnot why didn't she find me how come find me yeah right so yeah you're you're offended you're like I'm not look I wasn't looking for the notebook right like a love story yeah I'm glad she had that

but like let's get to the real meat of it yeah so so he says like so that's where she met my dad and everything like that but that's what I need to know and so why didn't she reach out to me he goes because she went to jail yeah and you see like rand sort of like something that never even went through his head as a possibility. Right? It was about sort of like his neglect that he felt from her, not anything that she could have possibly endured that would have led to her absence, right? And then it's sort of like he settled in because he said, Randall, this is, it's not the notebook. Like, let me tell you what happened, right? So like almost like after she's revived,

they take it to the hospital, you know, and she's recovering. But even in the midst of the recovery, the police presence is there. The murmurs from the nurses, like, well, that child is probably good. I'm glad that he doesn't have to deal with this woman as a mother, et cetera. Like the sort of, what you were saying? Self pity. Shame. There's the pity, but like the idea, like the conclusions that we automatically jump to

about who someone is because what they are going through at a present. Right. Right? We feel like they've always been that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so she, they do take her to jail. And then what is the reason why she can't stay even in Pittsburgh?

That ultimately she has to go. Too full. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The prisons were overcrowded. So she was sent to California. And so she goes to jail in California. Yeah. Which we still do now.

Like, you forget that a certain person who overdoses, who has to go to the hospital, who is then, when they wake up and are finally detoxed or are met by the police. Right. instead of help. Right. Or someone who attempts suicide. Yeah.

And who lives. And then is, you know, that's illegal. Is it? Yeah. Yes. It's illegal? Yes. And so, like, there are these things that are, like, the people who are, who need the most help.

Are just put into this system, a punitive system. Yeah. And so she gets sent off to California, which is, obviously, thousands of miles away. How many years? How many years was she? Five years. Five. five years.

Five years for, like, was it, was it possession? Was it use? Possession. Five years. Yeah. So then after five years, she's left with, like, where do I go? Yeah. Who do I call?

Who do I call? Yeah. Start my life over with, where? And she goes back to her aunt and doesn't even tell her parents. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And you see her having these conversations with her aunt about, like, Like, can I even go fine, my son?

Like, I failed, you know, just sort of feeling all kinds of shame, just coding everything. And I'm trying to remember what Aunt May says to her. She ultimately, she doesn't go find her, and she doesn't tell her parents. And I think maybe she doesn't say anything that, like, convinces her to do anything other than what she's doing. But interestingly enough, going back to the farmer's market with her aunt, She winds up seeing Hi for the first time since incarceration.

And he just sort of waves. And she waves back. And then Beth cuts into the story and be like, wait, all y'all did was wave after all the sexual tension. And I was like, hey, man, I want to hear about my wife. Because my mama does want the notebook. Beth does want the notebook. She does want the notebook. And I'm like, I don't need to hear about my mama making sweet love to this dude.

But I was married and his wife was pregnant at that point. Married, pregnant was in a different place in his life. But they would just sort of see each other, you know, throughout time. They grew them a little mustache, you know what I'm saying? They say hi, she said hi. Then we ultimately transitioned to Vienne. And who plays the eldest version of Laurel? Of Laurel.

I'll tell you a little story about her because she was absolutely wonderful, on guests. There was a lot of guests on this one. Her last name is Gibb because she's Marla Gibbs' daughter. Oh, wow. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. And when you see it again, you'll look at it and be like,

Oh, I see it. Yeah, yeah. You'll see it. So Angela Gibbs. We transitioned from Jennifer to Angela, and we transitioned from whoever the young stud is, who plays yike, to Vienne. And eventually she stops coming to the farmer's market. And he knows something is up.

He knows something is up. His wife has passed away. Yeah. His kids have grown up. He goes to visit her at her home. and she's got her hair wrapped in a scarf and she's been going through cancer and he's like, what are you going to do?

How's the chemo going? She's like, we're past that, right? Like, they say it's very aggressive. It's going to come when it comes and I'm just going to try to make the most of the little bit of time that I have left. And we have an echo of the first time that they spoke to each other and says,

well, you know, you eat, I'll cook. And they were blessed with two more years. Together, yeah. Two years where he learned this whole story. Where he learns this whole story. It's like she's clearly knows that the end is coming for her and is ready and willing and able to sort of share all of her with someone. I think that was probably like a huge relief and release for her. Absolutely.

So I found that interesting that that's how he was recounting this story. Agreed. And I'd say for Randall in terms of, of what Haas telling him, there's not a day that your mom didn't think about you. Like, whether she was in prison or out, like, she loved you fully. And to know that he was spoken of. Because I think for such a long time, Randall just felt like he was an afterthought, unworthy of love. Like, I left at a fire station, no one came to find me, that sort of thing. Like, in his mind, he, it sort of reminds me in a very interesting way about like African Americans, blacks in America, and lawyer, a lot of us say that

our story begins with the institution of chattel slavery. Like, that's where it sort of starts. And I feel like that's sort of like where Randall's up. But then there's a rich history of life and ancestry that extends before that, where there is no incarceration, there is no slavery, that there is freedom or whatnot, that like, I think a lot of people sort of yearn to know that specificity because you can speak to other folks of the diaspora or either people from the motherland. And, like, I've had people come up to me and be like, what tribe are you from? And I'm like, I'm from the St. Louis tribe. They're like, no, no, no, no. Before that. What tribe are you from, right? You know, and I was like, I don't know. I don't know. And I feel like,

Randall hearing, listening, knowing that he comes from a place of love and wanting, is sort of the fulfillment of that. Of knowing his tribe. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's really cool. They finish telling the story very simply. And when it's all done, Hise says it gives them the keys. He said, these are yours. And he's like, you sure you don't want it?

It's like, no, I'm good. I'll see your breakfast in the morning. And I got it, like, the moment between Beth and Randall, she's like, how you doing? She's like, she's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What a loaded question. Beth comes in and it's like, this is a lot in one episode, huh? Yeah.

And he's like, you know what? I just, like, found out my birth mother story and got a farmhouse and learned about, like, her love. Got an uncle, lost an uncle. You know, got an uncle. lost and his uncle learned about her love story to Vietnamese fishermen or whatnot. And it's just like, that's how I'm doing. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

And they go to the hotel and he's having a tough time falling asleep. And she's knocked out and he says, I'm going to go for a drive if you wake up. And he goes back to the house. And I think he's just sort of looking for the spirits. That's kind of like how I would like. Sure. Like if anything in Keir wants to speak to me or what have you, like, I'm open. I'm open to hearing it.

And then he steps outside of the house and he walks to the water that has meant so much to his mother. And even Hyatt's told us, like, sometimes I feel like I can hear it laughing. Right? He had told us that before. And so Randall's like, you know what? Why not? Like, unlike my mama, I don't want my clothes to be all wet because Randall is very orderly. Yes.

And so he takes... Hold him up. You see all you say, bro. I just gonna toss them down. No, no, yeah. Only character in the show that would fold his clothes before a skinny dip. He folds them up and walks into that cold-ass water.

They didn't pump any warm water in there for you. So it was a real lake. So we had two different things in terms of shooting. There's the real lake that we had to shoot for that shot. The wide, yeah. Then we had a tank where me and the two ladies would have the actual scene. And that was warm. That was warm.

And it was interesting because you hear her laugh. And then you turn and they see each other. And listen, this is interesting because I've lived a long time without my dad. And I say this all the time, which is the most reassuring that I can tell people who experience loss. And it may be empty in the immediate, but in the long term, these words will reverberate, I believe. They don't go away. Sure. They really don't go away.

Like that physical shell is one thing, right? And you may miss that particular version. Yeah. But that soul, that essence, that thing is eternal. Yeah. It cannot be destroyed. Yeah. And, like, it was such a joy to do that because, like, I feel like I have that all the time.

I feel like Sterling Brown is always sort of saying, like, man, I can't believe you doing this stuff, man. Like the dude, we love TV so much. People watch Barney Miller love boat fantasy, all the stuff like that. Like the fact that I'm doing this right now. Oh, he'd get such a kick out of it. Not he would. He is. He does.

Yeah. He actively does, you know. And so it was such to be led through that. And now I'm remembering. Remember when Jennifer came? Because I wasn't remembering the exact moment. When she's like, I wanted to put my hand on her face. Yeah, I saw that.

Right? And you see my hand sort of like put her hand on my face. Oh, man. That moment was so beautiful. It really was. It really was, man. And so we have this moment, this release, this sense of completion and closure in terms of his story. And the next shot you see of R&B driving back to the airport or driving.

I don't know if they were driving home or driving to the airport. Noticably lighter. Just. It's just floating almost. I think you should have still been naked. That's probably, that was my hot take. That's what was missing. Smash cut to you, dripping wet, naked in the car, just smiling.

Smiling. Life is good. And her just being like, something's different about you. There is a sense of completion, right? Like, you cannot get closer to the truth. Like, you cannot get any closer. What a gift you've been given by this man who basically says, I just wanted to add this, that he waited a long time to be able to do this for Laurel.

And I just like, again, this man, this little like guardian angel man who came into your life for this very purpose to give you this gift. And then just like, it's like, here's the keys. Live a happy, fulfilled life now that I'm giving you this piece of your history. It's like, yeah, it just was remarkable to me. I loved like, the shot in the water of the two of you. of the version of Laurel just before she passed. And then the younger version, like, the juxtaposition of that, it's just gorgeous.

I'll tell you one thing, though, for a first-time director or whatnot, Kay, who was absolutely wonderful. I don't know how many times I had to scream in that water. But there was a point where I was like, all right, now, you don't get about one more take. And we're done. For Brown's voice is just all the way gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You got to let them know that that's coming. You know what I'm saying? We had Jennifer in here a couple episodes ago, but now having like rewatched this episode so recently, she's great. She is extraordinary. She's wonderful. Extraordinary. And again, when you get cast on this show, thinking that you are, you know, a day player perhaps,

you have a few lines in one episode and you're grateful for that and you just never think you're ever coming back. to be called upon three years later. That crazy? Is that crazy? To have that first episode, right, in 501, and for the episode to have ended the way that it did, and then to be brought back on a few episodes later for an episode that is entirely based around you

to step into those shoes with such like confidence and grace And like, you can't take your eyes off of her. She just, like, she imbued this woman with such humanity and gave us all, again, this more fully realized picture of a woman who lived a real life and for us to be able to, like, leave feeling, like, so filled by all that we did not know. It's just like, kudos to her for what she did.

and, you know, VN, all of the actors. An entire life in 42 minutes. In 42 minutes. An entire life. Sometimes I was looking at, I look at the iPad as I'm watching. I was like, man, this is full. How do you get all this shit in it? Yeah.

Yeah. So I just had to mention that because I just, we had her in here, and it was so wonderful to see her, and we had seen her a little bit in 501, but now to have this, the whole picture of this entire episode. You killed it, Jennifer. Yeah, Jennifer was just unbelievable. Job well done. The only thing that I need to finish off with is that there is an inspiration on Randall's part to reconnect with his brother. Yeah.

Just so we can, I'm going to give you a little segue for that 507. Yeah. Yes, please. Please. There's a phone. He calls his brother just feeling ready to bury the past, to move forward with this new lightness. God can take it away, but you have to let it go. Right. And Kev says, hey, man, I would love to talk to you right now, but actually tonight is a bad time. Madison has gone into labor. I'm stuck in Vancouver. I cannot get to her or whatnot.

I'm kind of freaking out over here, so you have to excuse me. I'll hit you back when I can. And I think we kind of see Randall and Beth make a decision to, maybe they just drove to California for now. I actually have to watch the episode. I know I'm there. I know I'm there.

I just don't know how we got there. How we got there. I don't remember either. But that's how that episode. And where are your kids? They old enough. They can watch themselves. They can watch this.

We got a guest. We got K.O. Yegoon coming in to represent for this episode because it's really hers. Director of this episode. An OG writer. Yeah. So if you are a fan in the show, you are a fan of Kay's. And you just don't necessarily know it yet because she is one of the heartbeats of This Is Us. She's that chick.

So we're going to do a few ads right on. We'll be back with a little bit more. That was Us. More that was us after these words from our sponsors. I've been looking ahead of my calendar and realizing how much spring travel sneaks up on you, especially because February is a short month. Sneaky, sneaky. It's not always a big vacation.

Sometimes it's work, family visits, or just getting out of town for a few days. I know I got to do some traveling for the season two premiere of Paradise. Lots of travel there for promotion, et cetera. We are getting ready for spring break. It's going to be here before you know it. And you better bet that I am going to be counting on Airbnb to help us find the best place with a washer and dryer and a kitchen and bathrooms and bathtubs and all the things that you need when you're traveling with three children. Yeah, we're trying to get up to the mountains with the kids with all this fresh snow, go up to Lake Arrowhead, and we have been delaying our booking. But luckily, Airbnb has plenty of options for us to investigate. And while you're off on those trips, your home is usually just sitting empty. That's where hosting your home on Airbnb can be a smart, practical way to make the most of your space.

And now hosting is easier than ever with Airbnb's co-host network, where you can hire a local co-host who already has hosting experience to help handle things while you're away. A co-host can help manage reservations, message guests, and be there in person, so everything runs smoothly. And when you're traveling as a family, the last thing you want is to be distracted by what's happening back home. Having a trusted co-host means you can actually be present on your trip, focused on your family, knowing your home and your guests are in good hands. With a co-host, you have peace of mind knowing someone local has eyes on your home and your guests, so you can relax, unplug, and enjoy being away.

If you've considered hosting but maybe need some help, find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. When was the last time your shopping delivery service really delivered? Right? Because showing up with almond milk after you ordered oat milk is kind of crazy, guys. For sure, I mean, really? I'm putting it in your hands. Yeah. To make a one-to-one swap if they don't have what I've asked for.

It's personal. It is something that a lot of places will take for granted, but with shipped, like you have one-on-one connection with a shopper. I have found that shoppers with shipped are there are no ordinary shoppers people. Yeah. Because they know that no order is ordinary. Yeah, they see between the list. They under say, see between the list. They know exactly what you're trying to accomplish.

Yeah. I've been using it for a long time. Like, it just simplifies my life. I got two kids. They got extracurricular activities. Everybody's running around. Me and my wife, we got things to do. Sometimes we need to have someone that we trust, bring the things that we.

neat. I want to cook French toast for my kids on the weekend, right? My holla is specific. You cannot be getting a random holla. Don't be bringing me other bread other than my hollah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. No, we're making French toast. But you guys, so shoppers with shipped communicate with you through text as they shop your order same day from all your favorite stores. I'm talking, Target. Yeah, PetSmart. Michaels. Albertson. I mean, all of them.

Yeah. Support the podcast. Let them know that we sent you. Try shipped free. for 14 days. Download the app or visit ship.com. That's s-h-i-p-t-com. Terms Apply. When was the last time your shopping delivery service really delivered? Right. Because showing up with almond milk after you ordered oat milk is kind of crazy, guys. For sure, I mean, really? I'm putting it in your hands to make a one-to-one swap if they don't have what I've asked for. It's personal. It is something that a lot of places will take for granted, but with shipped, like you have one-on-one connection with a shopper. I have found that shoppers with shipped are, there are no ordinary shoppers, people, because they know that no order is ordinary. Yeah, they see between the list.

They under, they see between the list, they know exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Yeah, I've been using it for a long time. Like, it just simplifies my life. I got two kids. They got extracurricular activities. Everybody's running around. around. Me and my wife, we got things to do. Sometimes we need to have someone that we trust, bring the things that we need. I want to cook French toast for my kids on the weekend, right? My holla is specific. You cannot be getting a random holla. Don't be bringing me other bread other than my white bread. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. No, we're making French toast. But you guys, so shoppers with ship communicate with you through text as they shop your order same day from all

your favorite stores. I'm talking, Target. Yeah, pet smart. My goals. My goals. Albertson. All of them. All of them. Support the podcast. Let them know that we sent you. Try shipped free for 14 days. Download the app or visit ship.com.

That's shipt.com. Terms apply. We are so excited because today we are being joined by one of the writers and the director behind episode 506, birth mother. Kay Oyegun is here to talk to us via Zoom about crafting Laurel's story and expanding Randall's origin. She is also going to break down

the emotional weight of bringing this long hidden chapter of the Pearson family history to light. Let's jump right in and welcome Kaye to the podcast. Kay O'yego! Kay! Hey! Ha ha ha ha!

Oh my goodness. Hello, hello, beautiful people. It's so good to see you. You guys, hello. Hi, Sally. How are you? Hey, S. KB. Honey, I am so good.

I'm so good. It's so good to see you guys in this weird thing. You're a producer explained. Your producer explained it. So I'm looking at your. You know how this goes. The back of my head. You're looking at us looking at you.

And there you are and now you can see me, but then I can't see you. So I got to look back the other way. We'll figure this out at some point. It's all good. It's all good. Hi, my love. Hello. How the heck are you, sister?

I'm so good. It's so good to hear your voice, sir. It is. Oh, my God. So just where everybody knows, Kay is one of the OGs. She's like one of the lifers. Yeah. Who was there from Jump Street to the end.

I mean, we've been talking about her for five seasons of the podcast. When we're going to get Keo Yegan on the show. And I personally refer to her as like the heart of the Black Pearson's. I feel like a lot of the storyline. that came through, Kay was deeply protective of and made sure that, like, something rich was and nuanced was always present. And, like, we always said, like, Dan always had at least a couple of black people. It would be Kay was always, Kay was always there.

And then there'd be some other people that come in and out. Other people come in and out, right? But, like, there'd be these moments where, like, Dan would come up to you after something and be like, man, I never knew so much about black women's hair. And, like, thank God. He knew about sick pillowcases and everything else. That's K. O. Yego right there, baby. You understand what I'm saying?

It's really funny. Kay moved in the middle of the show, not towards the end. Towards the end. You got married. I got married. And I moved to Nigeria. But I came back to shoot stuff. To shoot stuff.

But basically she could be living in Nigeria because she lives in Palmdale, which is. How did it? Here, it's like in the mountains. It's so pretty, you guys. The air is amazing. I'm teasing. Palmdale's about 70 miles away from L.A. So I'm teasing, but I'm not teasing at the same time.

It really is 70 miles away, guys. But it doesn't feel like anything anymore. It's like an hour and 15-minute drive. Yeah. Of no traffic. Oh, that's doable. It's fine. That's so doable in L.A.

With no traffic. Yeah. With no traffic. My nanny bought a home in Palmdale, too, because there's one of the few places where she could actually afford to go. And so she gets to come either later in the day or later at night because when there is traffic, it's untenable. Yeah. It's, yeah.

Yeah. She might as well fly in from New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you got to like plan your day properly. You got to plan your day. You got to plan your day. That's fine. Yeah.

And like set a bunch of stuff. I did have to get an Airbnb for a project I just did in L.A., but that's okay. That's smart. That's all good. That's living. That's living right there. You'd have to do the same thing if you were in Nigeria. Here's my question.

We're going to start with this first. Kay, you again, tell us, before we get into 506 and anything, because I don't know when's the next time we're going to get you, and you are important part of the fabric of the show. Depends on traffic. How did this is us first come to you in your life? Yeah, it was the most boring, uneventful story as far as like, you get us. Yes, I was on a show. Queen Sugar. I was on Queen Sugar at the time, and we were wrapping up our first season.

And so I was there, full season there. And then the show, we opened them, or not sure what they were going to do with the second season and all that kind of stuff. And so I was like, the only person who wasn't an EP on the show. So I was like, I got to go work again because everyone else is upper level. And we were five people in the room. Everyone else was upper level. And then myself. And so I was like, I got to go work.

You guys can, like, wait and see all that stuff, but I can't. And so I had a script go into Fox. They sent it over to pitch. I met with Kevin Falls. And my meeting with Kevin went really, really well because he was show running pitch. And then my second meeting was with Dan. And Dan, in the middle of the meeting, we were talking, and we just really got along. And he had just had a loss.

I was dealing with a couple of things. And we just had a really honest conversation. And I'm not a very, I'm not like a small talker. Like, I like to go there. You get in it. Yeah. And so, yeah. And so that's what happened.

And so we went there. And so we talked a lot about loss. We talked a lot about faith. We talked a lot about growing. We talked a lot about the fabric of things. He asked a lot of really interesting questions, which was like, what do you think episode two should be? What do you think the show looks like? And so a lot of those formative questions.

And then in the middle of the, funny enough, I told him the first five minutes of our meeting was like pitch related. And I was very honest with him. I was like, I love the script. I understand how to craft that character. but I've only ever watched two baseball games in my life. And so I will happily, and he laughed and he was like, we got the baseball figured out. It's like other things that we're looking for. And then 10 minutes of the conversation, as we were talking about like our lives,

he literally said, have you read 36? Like in the conversation about pitch, he asked me, have you read 36? And thank God I'd read all the pilots for that season. I read 36, which was what This Is Us was called before. And I loved it so much. And so in my pitch meeting, we started talking about 36. We started talking about This Is Us. And so the meeting was lovely and wonderful.

I got in my car and my agent called me and said, Dan wants you to start on Monday. And so it was just sort of like, it was the day of the meeting that it was like, yeah, it was like I was leaving out from Paramount because, yeah, because he was over in that area. And so my drive back, my agent called me. It was just like, hey, he wants you in the room. So I was like, praise God.

Like, let's go. So I left. Which room? Pitch or 36? 36. 36. It was 36. So he wanted me, no, he wanted me in 36 room.

And so I literally, I left Queen Sugar on a Friday on like June, maybe first. And I started This Is Us on June 4th. And so it was literally I left from one job right into another. I was very, very grateful, very grateful. So there was no, it was like a weekend between jobs. Wow. And is this, this is 2016. So our show had been picked up when we were just getting ready to start shooting.

Yeah. Because I remember we started in like July, like mid-late July or whatever. Yep. Golly, that is so crazy. This is amazing. Yeah, yeah. So then, all right, let's see. How can we like segue up into five?

Like tell me something about being that one of those representatives in the room. And like the sort of because our show doesn't shy. away from anything. Like, we talk about race, we talk about culture, et cetera. Like, were the conversations like always easy? Where they sometimes fraught? Like, and in terms of the environment that Dan fostered for people to express themselves, I want to know a little bit about that as well. I think truly, truly, and the evolution of the show is not hard to track, I don't think. The first season, because Dan was overseeing both shows, pitch and This Is Us, they had different showrunners in the show. And so his primary, he wasn't the one that was primarily in the room.

And Isaac and Elizabeth hadn't matriculated to co-showrunner status at that point. And so the first season, there was a lot of growing pains, if that makes sense. And there were a lot of things that I, and this is something that I'm so grateful that the audience never had to experience, like never had to experience or no or anything like that. But in the room where the sausage is made, There are a lot of conversations that went on that it was pretty easy to see early on what needed to happen. And I think that's where that protectiveness came from. It wasn't something that I came in seeking to do, to be honest, when you come into a new show and you're surrounded by the smartest, kindest people in the world, you're not really like looking for like, what's my, you know what's my spot. But it's just one of those things where I remember very, there were two instances early on that I was like, oh, I have a sense of,

what I can help with through the course of the show and other things ended up happening. But there was one in particular, second week, because the first week, we talked about ourselves. We didn't even talk about the characters. We had all the boards up, some of the boards. It was like 15% of the boards were up.

We built them out over the course of the first season. But we talked a lot about ourselves. All of, they were, we were seven in the room at the time. We were seven in the room. The first season was the smallest amount of people that we ever had on the show. And it was very robust. And we realized, I think Dan doubled the number in the second, or not doubled, but he increased the number significantly because by the time we got to, like, episode 16, 17 and 18, we were like, we were like, we were like, we were like, three people were breaking stories.

We were like writing outlines and like everyone was tag teaming on stuff. But the second week of the show, I remember Dan was like, hey, go like come up with pitches and ideas for William and Randall's relationship, right? And so we all like went, we were all super like impressed with our ideas and everybody came back with all this stuff. And we all pitched him around the table. And Dan has like the best poker face because he's actually like a legitimately good listener. Like he's an amazing listener. And so he listened to all our pitches. People were like William is a grifter.

He's got like, you know, he's got another family. There were all of these crazy ideas. And so we all pitched them to him. And Dan sat there. He listened and he nodded. And then he was like, this was like literally verbathing. He was like, what if he's just a father who had a really rough life and, like, genuinely wants to get to know his son?

And all of us in the room were like, oh, okay, okay. Let me go ahead. All right, all right. Everybody was looking for drama. Yeah, yeah, everybody was looking for drama. Exactly. We all, yeah. And it was just sort of like, I remember in that moment, which again, I'm so grateful it was

second week, I was like, oh, that's what this show is. Yeah. I was like, oh, that's what the show is. is so now your mind is starting to kind of orient towards these kinds of stories. And then the other moment that was really pivotal, there was an episode four in first season when Randall has a conversation with William in the, like a clothing store. And he has this kind of like explanation of himself to his father, who he feels judged by. The reason that conversation happened almost word for word was because there was a particular, hmm, how do I say this diplomatic?

There was a conversation in the room that required that conversation to happen. Sure. If that makes sense. Yes, it does. There was a concern that what does Randall, this wealthy black man, have to worry about? Right. Have to be bothered about. Right.

And that was sort of like having, it was causing story issues. Uh-huh. And it was just sort of one of those things where there was an inability to kind of get underneath him and understand his life and his perspective because, on paper, here is this affluent black man with his family. So there was no understanding necessarily of the depth of what he could be going through. So my staff writer self sitting there listening to all of this, I remember getting very, I don't want to say frustrated, but I remember being like, okay, just say something.

And so I said it to set it out loud all the things that are in that speech. And Dan happened to be sort of like shadowing the room that day. And he, after finished saying it and just sort of like he would feel this and he would be looking at that guy standing there. And he would feel like I walked through all. I said it out loud in like a frustrated monologue. And Dan looked over to like Laura Kahnar, who was our script, our writer's assistant. He was like, did you get that? That was sort of like what ended up being that monologue in the show.

And so it was just sort of things like that that. kept that sort of happened organically that first season, that it was just sort of like, oh, there's an arena that, like, requires, like a comfortable nature of a bit of, of conversation.

And it was something that, it was something that from then on, Dan made room for it at all times. Like, it was just something that he just, he wanted to, and he and I are very close, and so we talk offline about all kinds of stuff.

Yeah. All the time. Yeah. And so it was, It was never a goal. It just kind of became something like that. And I was always very amused, and I would make fun of him that, like, when he made a black son in this white family, he didn't know initially that he was making a black show.

And so he finds that to be crazy. But that's what he ended up doing in a way. Yeah. So, okay. Do you guys have questions? No, no. I'm just so fascinating. It's incredible.

We've talked about our writer's room so many. times and about how specific our show is. Like, if you wrote down the specifics of our show on paper, people would be like, this isn't real. This can't be real. And every single bit of it is like ripped from the headlines, as it were. Like this is the writer's vulnerability and their ability to challenge each other, allowed the characters to challenge each other, which pushed our audience to challenge themselves in their own lives. And it ended up being this beautiful symbiosis that people really liked for six seasons. Folks connected to it, man, in a real beautiful way.

And I can say by going into that writer's room and bearing witness to the nature and level of conversations that transpired in there and the sort of rawness, like it was not, like, K right now is being the most politic I've ever seen her. True. She's on camera. She's on camera. We all can't. What's you doing?

So the nature of like what happens inside there is like they go there. They go there in a really way. Right. And I was like, next question. Yeah. Next question. And it's awesome. Mr. Brown, next question. It's awesome.

Next question is we're talking about this evolution of having like this show within a show that focuses on this black family. So like we're sort of reaching a pinnacle of it with regards to Laurel's story. So I'm curious for you. because for the longest time, I was like, oh, thinking the same thing as the character, she passed away after delivering Randall or whatnot, overdose, et cetera, et cetera.

At what point in time did you guys build out the idea that maybe there's more to this story, right? Because I don't think it was from the beginning, but somewhere in between the beginning and five, this sort of germinate. Talk to us about that. I'll tell you, it was kind of from the beginning in one sense. Okay.

There was a version of her story in season one that I remember, I remember it was so sad and it was so dark that we all kind of collectively were like, this is poverty porn. Like, we're gonna move away from this. And so there was a version of her

that existed in season one that like we all just kind of pulled out. So we kept it sort of in the back pocket. Okay, okay. We knew that we were going there as season four was kind of with therapy and discussing motherhood. and sort of like Randall and his mothers

and sort of where the origin of his problems were, we had such an amazing opportunity with Rebecca to sort of explore that relationship. But then one of the things Dan was curious about was sort of an origin that is kind of, he's talked to his two dads, he's talked to his one mom, but there is one other mom that like exists out there

that, like, he was so curious about doing justice too. And so he held that in the back pocket. I remember in the between season four and five, Dan had written episode 501. And because over the, during hiatus, we would all, there were a group of us that would talk and share pictures and scripts and stuff.

And so he shared 501 and in 501 at the end of it, Laurel woke up. And so at the end of your OG 501, Laurel woke up at the end of 501. And it was like a very like, oh my gosh, oh my goodness, crazy like ending. And it was just, it was just sort of,

which was awesome. So Dan wanted to go there. He wanted to explore it. He wanted to sort of dive into it. And so in the process of doing that, he was very taken by New Orleans and the world of New Orleans. And I had come from Queen Sugar. And so I had lived in New Orleans for a little bit and shot in New Orleans. And so there was sort of, there were realities there that just sort of allowed for high to be created, a Vietnamese community, which not a lot of people know exists in New Orleans.

And so all of, and Dan is always, he will always be drawn to what's true, but also what's expected in the truth. And so when he found out there was a Vietnamese community, he was like that. I want to do that version of something. Okay. And so, yeah, so there was always a desire to do a laurel something. But I think we, we, like, we wanted to. We didn't know, as the writers, we didn't know how, but Dan figured out how.

For you and Ebony and crafting sort of this iconic. Ebony is the, Ebony is the other writer. Ebony's free in this episode. She co-wrote this episode and she's not feeling well, so she wasn't able to join us, but she don't come on. Give her our love we'll have on at some point in time, I'm sure. But in terms of like what was important to you guys in Laurel's story? Because you're dealing with a blank canvas, basically, because we only know what the audience slash Randall has been told. So you have all of this stuff to explore.

What was most important to you guys to get across in terms of bringing her story to life? Yeah. When we break special episodes in the show, we know what the season is, well, when we broke special episodes in the show, we know what the season looked like. And then we would sort of section off people. So the breaking of this particular episode, it was myself, Ebony, Vera and Julia Brunel. That's Black, yeah. So we got pulled into a special room and we called ourselves like the little women. Like we wrote like little women on the door and we were the little women. And so I think what we wanted to. to do in that room, what we endeavor to do, big picture for Laurel's story is we knew that the edict was get Randall back to Kevin by the end of the episode. And then the other thing was Dan was really drawn to a love story. And that was something that he was really, really taken by and moved by. And so in the little women room, we just, we broke a love story. We broke a love story, broke the beats of a love story. We walked through the love story. And so that was kind of the big picture.

And so we pitched out the love story. And so that, That's what you do in those spaces. Whenever you have a special episode, you break it in a small group, you pitch it out to everyone, including Dan. He signs off on it. And whoever the writer is goes off and now puts the meat on the bone, so to speak. And you directed this episode as well. So, and this was your first time directing? Yeah.

And first time directing on our show, obviously, in the middle of COVID, which made things, I'm sure, all the crazier. So much fun. Was this something you always were. sort of plotting and like how did that come about? And also then how special was it to direct this particular episode helping sort of put this story on the small screen? You know, it's so funny. I am the least ambitious person you could meet, which is a very odd to say. Truly, truly, it never occurred to me. It never occurred to me that like, oh, I'm just, I'm already grateful to be writing in the room. Like, it's like, I'm already where I want to be. I'm already thrilled and happy

to be there every day and like do anything and everything that that I can to sort of like, you know, service the vision and all of that. So it wasn't my idea at all. It was actually Dan. Dan was like, and he was very clear about it. He was very much as sort of like, you know, I've watched you. It was like he always does like Star Wars conversations with me. It was like, I've watched you grow and like very like, you know, all this stuff. And just sort of like, I think you're ready kind of thing to fly and all of that. And I was very grateful. So I literally, he, that was a desire that he had. He told me during the kind of close to the end of our hiatus.

He was like, I want you to direct this year and all of that. And so I was like, okay. So I didn't say no because, look, you're not going to give me a blessing. I'm going to say no. But it's just like, I was also like, oh, how? You know what I mean? But I also, I, the benefit of doing that in this show was just sort of, you're already such a part of the stew of making the project.

And like the other episode. like you're, you have autonomy over the words. And, you know, a lot of our directors just got handed scripts. They had thoughts and notes, but we weren't required necessarily to take them. But in this situation, I had the, like, right? But it's like, in this situation, I had, like, the opportunity to kind of just be like, I get to write what I want to see. So it's just like I get to sort of, you know, it's like if I, and Dan again was so receptive.

There were so many things because he wanted it to feel. ethereal. And so I sort of, you know, was like pitching him like a water baptism kind of like area. And he was like super into it. And there were just so many things that he was open to exploring and allowing to happen. And we have the best crew in the world. Gary Frucoff, who is our production designer on the show. Funny enough, he was my production designer on Queen Sugar. So it's like, we knew each other way back when and came on the first day on the success. We were like, hey. Like it was just like, it was like, oh. okay, so we worked so closely together,

and we already knew a lot of the similar kinds of stuff. And so we knew the kind of place we wanted. We knew the kind of house we wanted Maida have. We knew what kind of sort of, you know, elements of New Orleans that we wanted to bring. We shot it in like, you know, San Bernardino or something. We did, but we were going to do New Orleans, but it was COVID that kept us from going.

Yeah. COVID was so intense during that period. And during shooting, both Jennifer, who played, who played Laurel and Sue who got COVID in the middle of our shoot. And so it was just sort of like, but it was good. We thank God. We thank God. Yeah, everybody was okay.

Also, you don't want to be getting in a lake in New Orleans. It wasn't much better in California. There's no alligators in California. Facts. Yeah, yeah. There's no. I don't think I would have got naked in New Orleans, Jack. I can't have it.

Coming for your boy. We would have had, you know, a situation set up for you. You would have had a program. You would have had the scuba divers. You would have had it. I'm going to tell you this. It was so cold that night. And I, they said, and Kay was like, so, so SKB, like, I need you to take your clothes off.

And they're thing. I said, okay. You didn't know that beforehand? Wasn't 100% sure. Like, it was really. We weren't sure. But we talked about it. Yeah.

We talked about it. Maybe it was a tidy, whitey situation. I was like that. They didn't mention it to. anybody else. Maybe not. By the way, Sterling, just, it's Dan said. She was very diplomatic.

And she was like, look, I just can be like, you do I do what you want to do. But I was like, sister's directing her first episode. Brown going to help sister out. But Brown would say, hey, tell me when we cutting so I can walk my black ass out this water. Right on out. Don't just have it be going or whatnot. And she said, I'm probably going to cut before you even get to this far. And you know how directors do it?

They say, uh-huh. Brun's just walking out. Yep, yep, yep. head is almost in the water. I was like, thought you was going to call, cut! And they're like,

it just looked so good, that's okay, I'm sorry, I'm like, okay. Freezing. But it was one of those, I'm so grateful that you did it, Sterley,

and I am. And it was something where we weren't sure as far as, like, NBC rules, basically of nudity and all of that stuff. So we had talked about in the meetings. I'd written it as he was like in underwear. But I expressed the vision, right? And so there was a vulnerability,

a birth, and stuff. And so he knew, yeah, he knew what my desires were. And he was very kind. Don't worry too much about it. They gave him all kinds of awards for it. You know what I mean? He got all kinds of awards. Yeah. He's fine. For showing that touch. We're doing all right. Give in America what they want. Were you, in terms of the directing process, were you ultimately, like, happy? Were you overwhelmed? Were you a little bit of everything throughout the process? Like, how did it feel being behind the help? You know, we have, again, the best team on the planet. We have the best team on the planet. Our crew was just remarkable. And so I felt very

supported every step of the way. One of the things that people don't realize is because Yasu, usually on shows, like there's like an alternating DP situation. We have one D.P. We have one D.P. We have one D.P for the whole show. And so Yasu rarely ever gets an opportunity to prep. And so that's something that people don't necessarily think about when they're watching a show, that your director and your D.P usually prep together. But in this situation, Yasu is shooting the other episode while you're prepping. And so that was something that was really tricky, but I would send him, like, pictures and images and, like, terrible stick figure drawings and all of this stuff

to just be like for the big stuff, for the things that I really wanted, like I saw in my head that shot of Laurel in the white gown, the back of her, lit by the moon. Like, I saw that in my, like, I was like, no matter what I do in this episode, I have to get that shot. And so things like that. So I drew that in a stick figure. And I was like, yeah.

Yasu, this is something that we need to get. And so make this happen. And so there were like priority lists that we would sort of talk about. And so I didn't feel. And also, look, I pray about everything. And so I didn't walk into anything feeling nervous because I was like, Lord, if you brought me here, you'll bring me through it. It's a prayer warrior. And so that was something that I never felt that level of nervousness.

And I also felt very supported by everyone around. And so you guys killed it performance wise. the crew killed it behind the scenes. And so I was so grateful. And we are so many new people on the show. Jennifer had never, who played Laurel, had never, you know, done as much acting work as she did on this episode at the center. And so we had a lot of late night conversations. We had a lot of just sort of walking through things.

And it was always a very safe set. I remember everyone was always very kind about keeping noise levels down, allowing for her to kind of go there, allowing for takes for her to go there. because there was a lot of sort of wrenching that she had to do in this episode. And I was just so grateful. Chai McBride was amazing. I'm just like there were so, at Lisa Hamilton, like, there were so many people that came to play that I was just sort of like, where they do that at. Like, it was just the coolest thing ever.

We talked to Vien Hong in the last episode, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was so wonderful. He was just so, so good. Yeah. Like, he was remarkable.

He was remarkable. Two things that I thought were really well done in terms of, the writing was the question that Randall had, which I think the audience has, is like, all right, if she were alive, then how come she didn't reach out to your boy? Like, how come, like, there's all this time that sort of existed between the time and when she actually passed away and that I've been alive, the idea that she didn't come through. And when, when High says that she went to jail, like, there's this moment, like on Randall's

face and me watching around to be like, something I didn't even consider. And it made me think about like how masterful I started juxtapose like the addiction of Kevin with the addiction of Laurel and how those two things played out in life. And I was like, who got punished? That shit feels real. And I just wanted to know like, I mean, I'm sure that was a big concern for you guys too and just like sort of coming to that decision and like how did it all come together? with that because I felt like if you dropped the ball there and people were left feeling like,

ah, she could have done better. No, like, it was like, no, there was nothing else that could have really happened. And then also the idea of shame and feeling like, you know, I've been gone for such a long time. How do I just reintroduce myself after this seeming abandonment? I just want to hear your thoughts about that as a writer. I mean, again, we have so many conversations in the room. And one of the things that we wanted to do, especially in that time period, those were all based on articles that we had read. Yeah. That there was an over-policing in particular communities for drug, you know, addiction,

for carrying, for possession, all of that. And that was something that five years, we even, like, reached out to some folks because we were so diligent. Everybody was watching our show with, like, a fine-tooth comb sometimes. It was just, we had to make sure that we got these things sort of, not even sort of, right. And that was the truth. That was the truth. There was a heftier sentence for a lot of black and brown folks during that.

that period, still, but during that period for sure. And so it was something that we wanted to be honest to. And I think in crafting her story, we also wanted to account for that amount of time. So if this person died in 2015, what could actually cause them to sort of not move heaven and earth to find their kid? You know what I mean? And I think putting that area there, it was not only shamed from her family and not even sort of being able to go back to that environment, but also carrying that shame within

herself and not really knowing how to let that go. And so I think that was something that we talked about at length and the kind of person Laurel was who would be able to sort of shoulder that. Because there are some people who have gone to prison for a long time. And when they get out, they're back to, you know, they're about that business. But it's like for someone like Laurel, we wanted to walk through the reel of this kind of girl who kind of felt like the world was her oyster in a way. But when she realizes that it's not, now what happens? It's like there's a real fear that kind of lives with her in a way for the rest of her life, that she managed to find joy and light in different places,

but it kind of hung over her for a while. Yeah. This is the other thing I wanted to mention real quick. And then I'm sorry, I talk it a lot, but it just means a lot to me because as I was rewatching the episode, I was so profoundly moved. And I just want to talk a little bit about the love story. And Vien said this, like, how moved he was to see, like,

the two people who are often saying, seen as two groups that are seen as least attractive or appealing, et cetera, in terms of black women and Asian men finding love within one another, right? Like, how important that that was for you as well. Because I am oftentimes left with this feeling of like, black women, I think are the most frequently misunderstood slash dismissed group of people in these United States. They're often told that they are too much, that they are difficult, that they are, this, that, and the other, because I don't know. I don't know exactly why, and maybe you have a thought on that cane, if you want to articulate it, please feel free to do so.

But to see someone be front and center, a black woman, not overly sexualized, but being allowed to be romantic and have an Asian male love interest as well. And it was sexy. And it was sweet. Like, and it was, like, they got a meat cute, you know what I'm saying? Like, he thought she was drowning. Like, he thought she was drowning. And then he can't speak English and whatnot. And she don't know nothing.

He still cooks for her. You know what I'm saying? And he said, you eat. I cook. And then we got a chance to have an echo when they finally came back to each other's lives. Like, shit was beautiful. We don't get that kind of beauty with great frequency. Jill, I'm just curious if you want to articulate on any of the shit that I just said,

I'm just spouting off at the line. Beautifully said, Sterling, beautifully said, exactly why you said that is why we did it. We had a lot of those conversations in the room. And I remember when we were first talking about it and we were first talking about it sort of big picture, there was the kind of, you know, is it Pocahontas? Like there was like a kind of like there were references that were used in the room of the kind of man that he would be. And I remember that feeling. And we sort of, again, our room was always very open. and Dan always created this environment for people to have different opinions.

I remember that feeling like, haven't we seen that before? Like, you know what I mean? Like this, like, it would be like this like very like swarthy white guy. Like we were going to change the dynamics before we landed on what we ended up landing on. It was going to be like a John Smith kind of guy. To be completely honest, like that's what the OG version, you know, was going to look like. And it was one that just felt very played. It felt very uninteresting.

It felt very explored, frankly. And so that conversation came up where we were like, I mean, a Vietnamese-speaking group of people on camera on a network television show is just not something that typically happens, period. And so it was something that we were just sort of like, oh, how can we not only explore that, but also create us like a leading man out of that. And just sort of, you know, and dig into that. Again, an environment that Dan always allows, you know, for these kinds of things to happen is something that he's. was so into. I think even he was the one that sort of like, when it was voiced the John Smith version, he was the one that kind of felt like, eh, I don't really want to see that. I don't really want to do that. And so we had to kind of figure out what was a different way in.

Yeah. And so I, that was something. I never, I understand the stigmas that are around black women. I don't take them on because I was born in the skin. You know what I mean? I was born in the skin and I've never had a different point of view. So all my hands, leading people are black women. So it was just sort of like, it never occurs to me that that is not the case. You know what I mean? That's sort of the lens with which I see, you know? And so therein lies the fact that I am aware of it. And that's part of the reason why I enjoy being in situations where there's a level of underestimation. There is a level of a need to clarify. I love it. I've never been in an all black room. Like I have so many friends who

gravitate towards all black writer's rooms and they just like love it there and they're like I'm not going anywhere high five you know I'm not doing it I'm like put me put me in a room with like where it's just like two of us and we have to like stand on business in that environment because we're going to stand on business in that environment and I love it and so I never feel I yeah I don't know yeah I think that's sort of the point of view because it's like somebody has to be there somebody has to do it and do it with grace do it with humor do it with understanding because it was never a fight. You know what I mean?

It was always a conversation. It's like I'm also very open to be wrong. I don't have a, I'm not a monolith. I like what I like. You know what I mean? And so it's just sort of like I'm not out here trying to represent everybody. But I definitely know that like if there is a humanizing of someone, we're going to find it. You know what I'm going to go there.

We're going to go there. We're going to figure it out. Listen, it's been, I can't believe we took to this long. We've got to have to come back for like a whole episode. It would. I don't know if you can make it from Palmdale, but if you can grace us. from up north. It's not in space.

Okay. It's just. We'll meet you. We'll meet you halfway. We're east of the 101. We're east of the 101. We're east of the 101. We're not too far.

There you go. Kay Oyegoon, I speak for all of us. We love you. We love you. I love you. I miss you. Next time come in studio and do a whole episode. Yeah, come in studio and like break down a whole episode.

Done and done. Thanks, Kay. Love you guys. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da da da-da-da-dum. That was us. That was a hate gum podcast.