That Was Us - Playing The Game | "The Club" (406)

Episode Date: October 21, 2025

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 4, Episode 6: The Club. Randall struggles to navigate his identity and get Jack to understand his perspective. Kate and Toby make time to work on their marriage, while Kevin spends time with Cassidy and Nicky as his Uncle’s court date draws near. Mandy, Chris, and Sterling also chat about intimacy after having kids, finding that connection with your partner, filming vulnerable scenes, the effect of hurtful comments online, and so much more. That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit https://www.article.com/twu and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout - Restore your peace of mind with Harbor: the only baby monitor designed to never fail you. Use code TWU or go to https://harbor.co/twu for $50 off - This episode is sponsored by/brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://betterhelp.com/TWU and get on your way to being your best self. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00 – 👋 Welcome Back 02:02 – 💑 New Parents, New Challenges 06:10 – 🔥 Kate & Toby’s “Get the Spark Back” Montage 10:30 – 🙈 Behind the Scenes: Filming the Hotel Scene 14:54 – 🧠 Marriage, Empathy & Emotional Honesty 20:00 – ⛳ Jack & Rebecca at the Country Club 31:48 – 👦 Randall Meets Mr. Lawrence 35:40 – 👁 “If You Don’t See Color…” 45:28 – 🏌️‍♂️ Lessons on Golf, Life & Legacy 53:22 – 💔 Kevin, Cassidy & Uncle Nicky in the Woods 01:00:08 – ❤️ Love, Connection & Grace in Parenthood 01:02:58 – 💬 Fan Segment: Perpetua’s Story of Belonging Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of That Was Us, we're diving into season four, episode six, The Clurb. Randall struggles to navigate his identity and get Jack to understand his perspective. Kate and Toby make time to work on their marriage, while Kevin spends time with Cassidy and Nikki as his uncle's court date draws. near. Oh boy. Hello, friends. What's going on? Here we are.

Hello. About to get in tune. Hello. Nailed it. And that was another good episode of that was us. They tricked me. This is 406. Yes.

We're talking about the club. Talking a lot about it. There's a lot of exciting things. But before we get to the club, I want to talk about what life is like for married people after they have a baby. You want to get right to it? Because that's where this episode starts. That's what this episode starts.

Let's get right to it. So talk to me a little bit about Cottoe. We start with a little Cotobie's sex tage. Yes. Sex montage throughout the years. Finally. Finally. Finally a Kate and Toby sex montage.

But also like acknowledging how horny Toby is. He's been Randy from the jump. Yeah. A real problem. Yeah. Problematic almost. It's not problem. I think being hot for your partner is a beautiful thing.

Yes. It's great. Yes. Correct. You know what I'm saying? You interpreting that in what way? What's the negative part of that? All the jokes early on about, you know, Toby pulling up a dolphin sex video on their first day, you know, him.

What a smooth move. But maybe that's his thing. I have pornography on his camera. Yeah. He doesn't go to porn hub. And again, I'm saying there's a problem. You're saying there's not? It's a different topic.

Oh, man. But they've had this child. Yeah. And the sexuality has fizzled. Things that have started. to wane a little bit. And I'm curious before me, you go, God, so somebody framed it this way.

I don't know if you guys have ever heard this, that like it actually takes like 12 months, really, to sort of grow a baby. But the first nine months or so happened to be inside of a mother's body and the last three months because, like, most other mammals, they come out and they walk in.

They're keeping up with everybody, et cetera, et cetera, except for us, we're not that good. Right. We're weak. We can't roll over anything like that. So it's like, you're still acting. sort of growing a baby, you know, you can say outside the womb, right? But for dads, right?

Now, this is like the moment where we're going to have, like, empathy for moms and dads who are new parents, right? Moms are now, their bodies have a function that up into this point, it did not, right? Like, I have to feed this child, right? And this is what my body is for, right? It's the primary purpose for this right now, whereas husbands are like, I thought it was for this fun thing that we used to do and share with one of them and grow close and connect, et cetera, et cetera.

Yeah. And both things can be true, although the primary is the primary, because this baby can't do anything for itself. Yeah. And you have to necessarily learn how to take a back seat. And the empathy for dads is we still love you. Yeah. And you're still human.

We still want to connect. We still want to be with you and share that specialness that we once had with each other. Totally. So like, does one have to end because something else begins? So I'm curious from a mom's perspective, insight, thoughts, because I'll say this, when it came up to six weeks, because everybody knows six weeks is you got to heal. Yeah, you got to heal. Take time. You can't just be forcing yourself up on nobody.

But I remember when Sterling Brown said to Ryan Michelle Bette, he said, you know, it's been six weeks. And she said, and I was like, well. You didn't have to tell her. A little alarm went off on your phone. Yeah, it was like, da-de-de-de-de-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-gong, gong, gong, gong, we're going to get a-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h. And she was like, what's that alarm for? Right. I was like, oh, it's my six-week alarm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Get to take this boot off soon. Anyway, do you have any thoughts? I mean, my thoughts are just, like, I absolutely have empathy for dads.

Yeah. And also recognize that, like, for, in my experience, It was the furthest thing from my mind. Yep. It is you are just your chemically in brand new territory, hormonally, all the things. It's like you are just, and with each subsequent child, even though you know what to expect. Yeah. It's still coming.

It is like it is just not top of mind. Yep. But also recognizing that that form of intimacy is consequential. It is essential to keep that connection alive and figuring out how to navigate that together. So everybody's needs are being met is important because it's like you need to be in partnership. Yes. As parents, as a couple, like all of it's all, so it's all important. But it's all valid.

Everyone's going to feel differently. And it's like there's a different timeline for everybody when you get back to that place. But it's important to get back to that place. And in this episode when Toby's like, it's been. nine months in like 23 days or something like that yeah yeah yeah the question is how do you do it nine months in 23 days that's right how do you do it I love that we all wrote it down how do you do it the answer is nobody knows I think but I think you do it I think you do it and I mean that sincerely like you just have to do it rip the band-aid type of thing

that's what I kept saying yeah yeah like even if it It's not something that you're, like, excited about or what. It's like, I think you just have to, like, show your body again. Like, this is what we do. This is, yeah. Right, right, right, right. Here is my body broken for you. Yeah, essentially.

All right. So now take it into Cotelbe Forrest, Big Dog. Like, what was going on for you guys navigating this particular storyline? Yeah. I mean, it was, it was the frustrations, you know, it was, it was, it was. It was the beginning of the end, like the very early beginnings at the end for Kate and Toby, right? We knew. You think it starts?

No, we knew. At this point, we knew. Oh, they told you. That this is where we were heading. Oh, really? You and you and Chrissy knew? Oh, dang. And so it definitely created a different vibe.

Did it really? Yeah. Yeah, because the sadness or whatever, you know, because Chrissy Metz has all these feelings that she is. She can't help and not. She can't help but. Yeah. I bet you'd be like, oh. Oh, Chris.

Yeah, but also not, like, yeah, like trying to, like, not do that. And so it was just, it was, it would make those moments really actually awkward, you know, and uncomfortable and like, you know, yeah, it was just, it was all the, it just started to get uncomfortable. But also, like, it is so hard to be a new parent. It is. It is so physically, emotionally, soul-taxing in every way in ways you never could have imagined. And so watching this, it's like it's just this instant reminder of like everyone's exhausted. They're like hanging on by a thread. Yep.

The least little thing like sets you off. Yeah. And there is some semblance of that that translated into the acting of it too because we were first time parents on TV. Like first time with a baby for some of the. baby actor. Yeah. So everything was complicated by the crying or the baby. And their schedule.

They can only work for like two hours a day. And the stress of having to take care of this person while you're delivering wines and like all these things. And so there was a little bit of that that translated over to from the first time parents into the actual performance of it. It's, it is, I'm so happy that like we get a chance to visit this episode as parents. Like, I'm so, like, like, we've done it then, I was like, oh, guys, there's so many things. And now, yeah, just look in your eyes and you're like, we get it.

We get it. Yeah. Right? And because the montage ends with, like, promise will always be hot for each other. And you're like, oh, that's so sweet. What a sweet and thoughtful sentiment. Like, that's the ultimate what you want. And then it smash cuts to a baby crying.

Yeah. And there's nothing that, like, an aphrodisiac. Yeah, it's that same thing, too, of, like, you parents look at, like, kids that are wild and running around And it's like, it's never going to be like that for me. Our kids are not going to be like that. Yeah. It's a lie you have to tell yourself. To Kate saying, not if you paid me in gold.

There you go. There you go. So then we go, Cotov's trying to get rid of some clothes that don't fit anymore. Yeah. And this was such a wonderfully nuanced thing. Totally. Because it wasn't like on the nose, like outspoken whatnot. But like, she's like, you're going to get rid of those pants.

Those are your favorite pants. Why are you getting rid of them? Yeah. Right? And I'm wondering if there's more in the script that possibly went away, but I'm curious. And you're like, well, like, I don't fit them anymore. Like, you know, I don't need them, so I just get rid of them. And she's, like, makes a thing out of it.

Like, don't get rid of those. That's a, you know. And you have, like, a clocking of it. And then that's when you tell her, like, you know, I tell you what, something that hasn't been happening around this house for the past nine months and 23 days. And, like, we need to connect. Yeah. We need to do something. Like, listen, your mom.

your stepdadder out here like let's put them to good use let's find some time for just the two of us and let's do this thing baby let's make it do what it do you know what I'm saying it's just like all right daddy I'll make it do what it do

so then Kate she's getting she's getting her sexy back like we see her she's got a nice little negligee on or whatnot she comes out of this bathroom we're in a hotel I believe there's rose petals leading to a felt Tobias

like who is ret to go, right? He disroves, you know what I'm saying? I love the clipping of the hair. There was no clipping of the hair in this episode. There's no clipping that was full, that was full hair? So as soon as this episode came on, I was like, oh, no, not this episode. Why? Why?

Because something in the schedule was shifted, and when I showed up to work that day, I was like, oh no. today's the day for this scene where I'm shirtless and I haven't trimmed my chest hair I haven't shaved my back like listen I know

listen you got listen listen I understand I get it but also like it was sure we're all allowed to have our things it was full magnum PI like unaddressed all natural listen there are men like Taylor Goldsmith

who see that and feel represented, you know? Is he full? He's full. I mean, he was like, he has like a little bit of a beard right now. He's like, he's like, I wish I could grow a cool guy beard, but I just grow like uncle beard. Like it's just like thick. Yeah. No, he needs to come over. He like 16, he could like just grow a beard like that. We need to shape it. We need to, we need to, we need to, we need to, we need to, we need to, just a topiary his face. Topiary his face. We can shape it and do a, yes. This is a wonderful palette his beard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agreed. I agree. It's incredible. I've got some photos of the last time he shaved his beard.

Remember the big one? And I was like, he was like, he was like, he said like progress photos to Chris of like shaving the beard down. He's like, I'm going to shave. I'm like, no, shave it. Yeah. You've got to do the thing. Yeah. He shaved this one and gave himself the big civil war. Yeah. Mutton chops. Yeah. And that, yeah, yeah, it was great. It was great. To your point, though, so, because I don't want to minimize that anytime you have to take your clothes off on camera. I was panicking too because I, and this is, I did not have clippers in my, in my, in my, in my, this is now I have clippers in my dressing room.

Keep them there just in case. I keep them there. Stay ready and I felt too embarrassed to go into the hair and makeup trailer and be like, hey, do you mind? Really? Season four? Yeah. You weren't like Zoe. Come on.

No, no, no. But after that, I did have somebody in a makeup trailer, shave my back once because I was like, oh, shit. Today, do you mind giving me? He hit this real quick. Yeah, and I will say, I and part of it is seeing it I'm like come on bro give it a little shape but another part of it is and this is this is the old world of social media but I did catch a social media comment from somebody about the episode with the um the vomiting emoji come on and and it sticks it sticks you don't want it to stick

But it sticks. Oh, that is silly about body hair. Like, come on. Anyways. I know. I wasn't enjoying. So may that be a lesson to all of us out there? There's a PSA, man.

Like, we're people. Humans. Everyone is a person, as it turns out. We're just people. And sometimes folks think because we're on camera or what have you that like we're above something. We see those comments. We see the comments. And like, please believe.

That's coming from somebody who doesn't read comments. Listen, but we are probably most critical of ourselves in you. So then if you say something, just be nice. Like think about it. Like if you were on camera and you had to do the same thing, what types of things would you like to hear? And if you don't have something nice to say, keep it in. Yeah, I know.

Like, I'm not trying to be mean, but like we're just people. And for every negative comment that you hear, You need to hear about 10, 12, 15 in order to offset that one. That's just why they tell actors, don't read the reviews. Yeah. Because the only ones you're going to remember are the ones that are bad. Right. You know what I'm saying?

So, like, you think you're doing something fun or cute in the anonymous sort of sanctity of your home. It's like, we're still people. So I just want to say, like, I feel like I take good care of myself and I try to be in shape. But, like, I don't like to eat before I take my shirt off. Right. You know what I'm saying? Let's shoot this thing as early as possible. let me know so I can eat food.

Because when I eat food, I get a little bloat. You know what I'm saying? And I'm just trying to give you the sexiest version of Brown that I got. People, man, I'm sorry you had to see that. That's all right. It's okay. But it's also the perfect kind of like set up for the two of them where it's just like they're in this bedroom.

Yeah. And they're trying to like get it going. Yeah. And it's not going. And it turns out that like we think he's stoked and ready. And what I thought was a post-coital scene for a second, it turns out that there was... He had a failure to launch.

He had a tough time. You know what I'm saying? Getting the sailor to salute. Nine. Eight. Reset. Reset the clock. Seven.

Seven. Eight. Nine. Ten. Eleven. And he's sort of just laying out. I was like, what was the initial reason

that you give for the failure to launch? A lot on your mind. Got a lot of my mind. You know, and she's like, okay, that's cool. She gets up. to go do something, and you say, it was the pants. And she's like, what do you mean?

And what did you mean about that, sir? It was just, it was the, what do you mean by me keeping the pants? Do you not have faith that I will keep the weight off? Or are you hoping that I don't? Why are we keeping these pants that don't fit? Yeah. This doesn't make any sense to me. And then there was an added sort of thing, and I knew you would take it personally,

if you thought I didn't, and that just kind of made it worse. Yeah. Right? The reverse side of it is, you know, it was, it was something that he was assuming. He was assuming all these things instead of just talking about it. Right, right, right, right, right. You know, he just takes the pants, throws him back in the closet, which is also a Chris Sullivan thing. Fine, I'll just keep them.

I throw in towels all the time, and it's not healthy. But it's like, great, yeah, keeping the pants. pants, good. Keep the pants, happy. Can we be done talking about this? Moving on. Yeah. Okay. Another lesson I've learned from Tobias. More. That was us after this short break. There's something about crisp fall weekends. Football on TV, cozy meals, trips to see friends. Exactly. An Airbnb is my go-to when looking for a perfect.

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because before she recommends, like, How about we watch a little Turner classic movies? And you're like, oh, yeah, TCM always does it. So we're watching a little north by northwest. And at the end of it, the train is going into the tunnel. And Tobs has a quip. Which is penis and vagina. Right?

That's what they mean. Even the train is getting some. Even the tunnels. Oh, sorry, the tunnels. Or the train depending on your perspective. Yes. Even the tunnel and the train are considering, considering, other.

Yeah. And so they go back. Yeah. Oh yeah. I know what you're thinking. Even the tunnel is getting late. That's what it is. And she asks, are you still attracted to me?

Like that's not she, like, because I think that like your massive weight loss and like she just had a baby, you know what I'm saying? Like having those two things happen simultaneously because she asked before, like, can we like turn the lights down or whatnot? And so the idea of being seen by you, right? by you right now doesn't feel like the easiest thing right right she asks him this once they're back home right this is in the living room yeah yeah and and I think what proceeds in the next two or three lines is two or three of the hardest lines of dialogue that I had in the entire give it to me I don't even remember what they were but it was all of his hypersexualized poetry about his

loins it was good but it was like all right how do you deliver these how do you you you did it How do you drop in and just... But you know what? You made it look easy if it was difficult because you were just sort of reaffirming to your wife that I will always think that you are desirable. Yes. I will always want to be with you in the most, like,

it's not just your mind, it's not just your heart. It is you. All of you are something that I crave, right? And you did it in a poetic and beautiful way, but in unabashedly, like, never doubt the way that I feel about you. is not going anywhere. And I think that's one of the greatest gifts

that you can give to your wife, especially right after that, baby. Yes. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So you give yourself some crap. You found it and it played. I just remember when they came up.

I was like, oh, I remember this day. Remember this day. And this language. And it was not just like flowery, but it was like complicated. It was like alliteration. And I do remember having a hard time getting it out and us getting into a little bit of the giggles over.

Gotcha. All the loin talk. There was a lot of lusty loinloin talk. Lusty loins and alliteration. Yeah. And then she, because they come home, before that happens, things are a little icy, et cetera, and she goes into the bedroom, she comes back out,

and she's got some scissors, and she's cutting the pants up. Turns out it's the wrong pair of pants, but you understand what she was coming from. You know what I'm saying? and you guys are able to find that thing. Yeah. Is that where that ends?

Yeah. They decide to go get it on. I'm happy. That makes me happy. Listen, I'm going to tell you something. God, and you guys speak to it, that time right after the baby, Joe, that's just tough. You know what I'm saying? You are tired, you are taxed.

You're like, how come they're not doing this? How come you're not doing this or whatnot? Like, it is learning to have grace for one another and for yourself in that time is me. is massive. There's too many couples that break up. I know. In that period of time. Our therapist told us...

I remember. Two years. Yeah. Just in the first two years, don't do anything or say anything stupid. Yeah. Just let it be. Right.

Because those first two years are like the levels of divorce in the first two years of a newborn. Yeah. Like through the roof. Sure. Because everyone's... You think everything's broken. You think nothing is repairable.

You're in the you don't know who this person is. How it's going to be forever. What did you do? Who'd you partner up with your parent? And it was difficult for us with Bear because we were going through that also during the pandemic. Right. So on top of being new parents, we were like in each other's face 24 hours a day. What are you doing here?

No, no, what are you doing? I guess I can't leave. I guess I'll go in the other room and then I'll come back to this room at 2 o'clock for our 2 o'clock argument that we have in this room about the same thing every day. But it was easier with IFA to just be like, oh, here we are again. Okay. Just let it be. Gotcha. Just you're there, I'm here, and that's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can figure this out. It's also fine if you just are over there. Totally. And I'm over here. Sure. Let's just let that be until we can get some sleep. Amen. Sleep, sleep does a lot. Just take it easy in those first 24 months. Let it be.

Take a break. I'm breathing for all the new parents. Take a breath. Pause. We've been there. We all are. We've been there. Man, you want to talk a little bit about Jack and Rebecca back in the gay?

Yeah, I know. What's tricky about this episode is I had to write present past and past. Yeah. Just because we have Jack and Rebecca during their courtship. Sure. And then we have Jack and Rebecca when the kids are 12, 11. Yeah. So Jack and Rebecca are hot and.

heavy and just sort of, I think, like, the mirror to Kate and Toby. And I think Rebecca tells Jack that he wants to do something. Anyway, she's like, oh, yes, and I have to go to brunch. I got to go ahead and brunch with my mom. With my mom. And then he's like, well, that's a mood killer. Yeah, exactly. You know, you invite him to come along and he's like, I don't know if your parents are

like that into me. He doesn't tell you, though. Well, he had told you, did he tell you about the dad? No, no, no, no, no. But he just sort of hinted, like, I don't think your parents really approve of me. Right. I don't. I'll drop you off over there.

Right. And he says something like, there's no such thing as a free lunch or something. I don't know. He made some comment about, yeah. You guys go to the Malones. Dad invites Jack to golf. Jack tries to politely pass. No, thanks.

And Rebecca's like, this could be a good way for you guys to, like, get to know each other. Yeah, I'll go. Can he re-sings say. He rethinks it and agrees to go play golf. He agrees to go. And then they wind up going to the club. The clurb. Lots of people at the club in this episode.

The country club. Yeah. Country, country club. They are at the club and it turns out there's a dress coat for the club. And Mr. Malone is very nice. He's like, look, man, we got to get you in proper gear so we can get you out here on this course. And he's like, oh, it's okay. I don't need anything. He's like, no, it's my treat.

He's like, don't sweat it. I think there's, throughout this episode, there is this sort of common theme of, like, Jack learning to receive and being comfortable with that. And I don't ever think he actually gets to a place of comfort in that storyline. But maybe he learned something that he can sort of pass on to his son. So next thing, you know, they need a fourth, right? Jack's wearing clothes that are very unjack, right? And he feels and looks like a fish out of water, right? his golf game is so-so.

But I will say that dad is always trying to make him feel included. Absolutely. You know what I'm saying? He's talking to his buddies about like, oh, he's got a buddy who's in construction and does things. And he's like, well, maybe you should meet with Jack and you guys can do stuff. And he's like, no, that's okay. Like every time. Jack sort of shuts him down.

Every time Jack sort of shuts him down. And you see him start to have a couple cocktails on the course, too. He feels incredibly uncomfortable, and it's like every time we see him, there's another gin and tonic in his hands. Yes. Notices how much he drank. Jack says he's fine. Doesn't know how to receive help. And he says, Mr. Malone, I see it all so clearly.

Question, do you see it for yourself? So they're talking about, do you see yourself here? He's like, when my daughter gets married, right, she'll do it at our church. And then we'll have a reception, and the reception will be here. and I can see myself having the dance and doing all these things with her, et cetera. And my question to you is, do you see yourself here, right? And Jack is three sheets. And I got to give credit to Ventimilia who does not drink.

He played, he landed it. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was like, bro, your impression is awful. You're making a terrible impression right now. Yeah. I was like, just say thank you. Very considerative you to do that.

But, like, his sort of macho is frustrating. That default is very frustrating. Very, very frustrating, right? And he's like, well, I'm glad, you know, I'm the one who drove. It looks like, yeah, he's like, no, I'll be fine. You know? And so, and he tells him this whole thing about, I see it happening to you. So they wind up getting back to the house.

And Jack's like, you know what, I'm going to marry your daughter. And we're going to have a family and have lots of kids and everything like that. And the question is, do you see yourself there? and right before, then comes in Rebecca and he falls, right? Did he stumble? Well, he's walking up the front steps and dad follows in and says,

you know, you'd never be good enough for her. And he turns around. Say it again! Yeah, yeah, he turns around and like prompts him like, say it again, and you're like, oh shit, is Jack going to beat up Rebecca's dad? Hey, man, can I say so? Fuck is wrong with this dude.

Yeah. Dude, who are you talking to the woman that you love and you ought to be? Like, you know, an old man? It's the power of alcohol. Yeah, yeah. But also, but also her dad says, there he is. Yeah, he does.

That's right. Which puts a little bent on all of the other, like, inclusion type stuff where you're like, he also is fully aware of Jack's type. He was fully waiting. He was waiting for this moment and for him to, to reveal himself. And pushing him, you should get a better job. You know, you should, maybe you should talk to this guy.

You know, like pushing him, because he knows it makes him uncomfortable. Yeah. He knows the golf makes him uncomfortable. Yeah. Because they were just going to go hit some balls at the driving range. Right. That's right. And then he accepts a foursome.

Yeah. He knows that's going to up the uncomfortability. Right. And he's just trying to push this guy to his limit, trying to push him and push him and push him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Just go. Hey, you. Not good enough. Jack is about to. wall up him when Rebecca is like Jack dad like with and and then he falls and then he sort of stumbles and Rebecca's like we should get you home like you're not you're not okay yeah and she just sort of like take lovingly takes Jack and like kind of breezes past her dad yeah

like I think she knows like loves her dad but also knows like her dad is yeah a tough customer just like her mom yeah they're not they're not easy people to be around so good Good storyline. Those two scenes, it was interesting to see Jack be, I don't even know if submissive is the right word, but like uncomfortable to the point of like he did not know what to do. What to get to say. Do you know what I'm saying? Like he normally has an answer or fix or work around or something. But like that's that whole episode. He was just like. Shut down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like he turned to alcohol and that in turn. and just shut everything now. There was no momentum. So to sort of pivot to the present pass, to the more present pass, we have...

Randall needs to go to school early to see Mr. Lawrence. Yep. So Mr. Lawrence is the African-American teacher at school that Randall's been talking a lot about. They've been connecting. He wants to go to school early so they could spend some time. I think he's assigned him a book to read and just sort of like to... I think he's been sort of like what we understand is sort of serving as a stopgap to give him a sense of identity and culture that he may not have been receiving within his household.

His family, yeah. Right? Yep. He doesn't really realize that he's not receiving it. This is true. In his household. That's right. Until this moment.

There you go. His dad drops him off. And he's like, you know, I'm Randall's dad. And he's like, oh, you see a look on his face. dawning of like, yeah, one of these things is not like the other. You, sir, are Caucasian. And he's meeting Mr. Lawrence for the first time, too, because I don't think he knew that Mr. Lawrence was African-American.

No, I don't think anybody had any knowledge of who the other was. So now both of them are having, like, oh, I get it. Oh, it makes sense. An aha moment. This is why Randall's talking about Mr. Lawrence so much. And Mr. Lawrence realizing why Randall is so attached to everything he has to offer. Yeah. And he's a little, I wrote, Jack may be a little intimidated.

Yeah. You know, in terms of like, I think there's this idea, we probably feel it as parents just in general, but more acutely in this particular thing, am I everything that I need to be for my kids? Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Jack and Randall, watching Tiger Woods at home. and dad invites him to go do a round of golf because Mr. Lawrence says this. Mr. Lawrence says that. Mr. Lawrence says the Tiger Woods is going to be the next so-and-so. He says, I could be like the next, but we'll get into that a little bit later. But Mr. Lawrence is coming up a lot.

He's like, oh, you're watching Tiger Woods? Let's go golfing together. Let's go golfing together. Let's go golfing together. He's like, yeah, sure, that'd be great, right? Short story, just side note, went to Stanford University along with Tiger Woods, who was also in my class. Turns out he did not graduate, not smart enough, I think.

No, not at all. He turned pro. Hot take. He turned pro because he was the greatest golfer of his generation and made the... Of all time? I said, of his generation, some people will dispute of all time because there's some Nicholas people, there's some Palmer people. Does he not have the most?

I don't know all the numbers. So he had an historic run. What Tiger Woods was like one of the greatest runs of all time. Then something happened. And then he did not have his meeting. Got it. Yeah. So Jack's curious and whatnot.

So they go out to the golf course, and we see him on the putting green, and they're both pretty good putters, right? We see them both sort of drop their puts, and they're having conversation. Again, Mr. Lawrence is coming up. He's a, you know, Tiger Woods is breaking down all kinds of barriers, just like Jackie Robinson. He says, I'm breaking down barriers at school. Like, I'm the first black kid who ever be on the debate team. And he's like, oh, really? I didn't know that, man. Congratulations. And it's either in this part or the next one is where they are talking. And Jack is sort of saying, like, I understand kind of what it's like to feel on the outside. Like, you know, country code. Yeah, I never felt accepted at a country club. I never felt accepted at a country club like this. And Randall sort of looks at him like, okay, right? And he's like, what, buddy? Like, what's going on, you know? And I don't know if it's in this one or in the next one. But he said, dad,

In the next scene, yeah. In the next scene, still on the golf course or what have you, Jack says something to the effect that he doesn't see color. Like, I just see. Well, Randall says, like, I think there's a difference in what we're trying to say. Yeah. Like, you're talking about how you never felt uncomfortable, or you never felt comfortable being on the course,

and I would have not been allowed on the course at all. Yeah. And then that's when Jack says, like, with you, I see my son. I don't see color. Yeah. And Randall says, well, then you don't see me, Dad. Right. That this was, because this is the first time, like, so chronologically, this would be the first time that this conversation would have happened.

But in the narrative of the show, outside of the monument of Vietnam, like, Jack sort of tells him again, like, I understand what it's like to feel like an outsider, right? And to come back from the war and not be sort of received, et cetera. And I have to applaud him for a timid. to find points of commonality. And I think what Randall was ultimately looking for is that, like, yes, but at the end of the day, you're never going to quite understand what it's like inside my skin. Yeah. He's looking for that acknowledgement that we were talking about last episode, where it's like,

I don't need you to understand. Right. I need you to acknowledge that you can't understand. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, like, there's also a conversation. conversation between, I don't know if this is at the end of this or not, when Jack and you guys are talking about, because Randall also asks him, how come we stop going to the dojo? Right? Like, he's like, because you didn't want to. You said you weren't into that, into martial arts that much. He's like, yeah, but you don't let me stop soccer. You're not letting me stop this golf thing, but you let me stop that. Right. And you're like, as an audience, as a black audience member, I was like, well, Jack, how are you going to answer this? You know what I mean?

And even Jack, you see later on, goes to his wife. It's like, did we let that go too easily? Yeah. You know? Is there something, was there something about it that made us feel threatened? Uncomfortable. Uncomfortable? Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? And like, wow, what an amazing and interesting conversation that you have to have with yourself parenting a black child and not being black? Like, and I applaud the show for showing it, right? Because these are things. things that you would have no reason to think about until you had to think about. And I think it's just like the nature of the world. I had a friend of mine tell me one time, and we were on Armywives at the time.

He's like, why you always talk about, you know, black and white, dude? Like, why does everything that you say has to do like, well, as a black man, as a black, da-da-da-da. It's like, why can't we just be people? And I was like, dude, I see where you're coming from. And you're very, very sweet and very, very thoughtful. But I don't have a choice. And I think that's what it is. when you live in this world, right, as a minority, as a disenfranchised, I don't know exactly the word, marginalized person, you have to understand your perspective and the majority perspective, right?

So women understand what it's like to live in a man's world, right, because they make the rules. If you're black, you understand what's like to live in a white world. If you are LGBTQ plus, you understand what it's like to live in a heteronormative world because you have to. that unless you actively say to yourself as somebody who is on top of that sort of hierarchy, I wonder what it must be like to be like this person. There's no reason for you to. Like, an empathy is a skill that is practiced. Like, you have to, like, actively engage, right?

And so what I enjoyed about this is that, like, you see the Pearson's being like, oh, shit. Like, these are important questions and things that we have sort of, like, been blind to that we ought to sort of come up with answers. I wrote that. I was like, you see two parents grappling with, what did I write? Yeah, with their responsibility and honoring. Yeah. Randall. Right?

Yeah. So the couple of things happened at the end of episode, which are really cool in this storyline, is that, um, dad takes him back to school. He says to Mr. Lawrence is like, hey, man, if my son is coming to you with, like, big questions or something, I'd appreciate a heads up. I think it was a heads up or something. Yeah, simple heads up to his parents. Simple heads up. Got it. Right?

In a very sort of like... Pointed way. Yeah. Like, okay, sure. It's all simple. I, you know, that. He goes, like, you know what? Why don't you come to the house?

We'll have you and your wife over for dinner. And it's a challenge that's sort of being laid down in the midst of the invitation. It's like, yeah, I'll come. No problem. Right? It's like, you want to do this? We can do this. And both men, you can see, have, like, are sort of like, digging their heels into the ground

within the name of civility. Right. Right? And then there's the part about talking to his son about the game of golf itself before we even get to it. He's like, listen, I missed out on this whole thing. But this is the sport where business and deals get made. And you are going to be an important man. So sometimes you have to play it up to the level of competition. Sometimes you have to play down to the level of competition. But you need to know how to function within this milieu because this is where shit happens. Which is an important thing, I think, to remember as we go through the other storylines in this episode, like that sort of weaves into some of these other storylines that, to me, was a big, like, oh, I didn't see this coming. Yeah, it was a big shock. It was a big shock. I was like, oh, I totally forgot about this. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a really beautiful, like, lesson that dad is imparting on his child. Totally. More that was us after these words from our sponsors. Parenting is hard enough. The last thing you need is a baby monitor that makes it harder. We've all had those that disconnect or crash or make you pay extra for features you thought were included. That is why Harbor is such a relief.

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And I was dating Ryan at the time, and I was sort of just confused and bewildered as to how to make this relationship thing work. And he wound up telling me, he said, listen, you're clearly a very capable person, and you've had a lot of success in your life. And the way in which you've navigated life to this point has been beneficial for you. So there's no need for you to abandon it. However, there are other people who are here as well that have navigated life in a very different way that have had the same level of success. you trying something else does not diminish you. You're not going to lose anything if you try something different. So just sort of finding the common ground between you and your soon-to-be wife,

he did not know, I did not know what not, but I had to learn something else. And he gave me a perspective that I would not have had without professional help. Forever grateful. Better help has been helping people find that kind of support for over 12 years, connecting more than 5 million people worldwide with licensed therapists, With over 30,000 professionals on the platform, their matching process makes it easier to find the right fit. And if it's not the right match, you can switch at any time. This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward.

If you are ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off your first month at BetterHelp.com slash T-WU. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P-com slash T-W-U This episode is brought to you by Peloton A new era of fitness is here Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus

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Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go. the new Peloton cross-training tread plus at OnePeloton.C.A. Should we jump to... Yes. Okay, we'll jump to Randall. We are in city council. Randall is talking to J-Wan about how I keep sort of mucking it up with councilmen. I can't remember his name, elder black councilman. and so he's trying to figure out how to approach him

to sort of ask forgiveness and see if he can sort of start talking about his... Wilkins. Wilkins, thank you. Wilkinson. He wants to pass like a food desert grocery store. Correct. Bill and... Yeah.

Yeah, give people healthy options for the food in the neighborhood, right? Randall's trying to get something he wants. Yes. From this councilman. Yeah. Without playing their games. Right. Right.

So he comes up to him and says, gentleman like it would be great if we could you know reconnect whatever he's like listen man i want to talk to you about any of that stuff you keep blowing us off etc they're talking about golf right randall over here's i'm talking about golf he's like look i have an end at one of the premier courses in the area so if you guys want to go check it out and he's like you would have an end right he's like oh yeah i'm the carpet bagger who's all fancy and et cetera it's like listen the office stands if you want to play i can help you out and they're like well how about now and you see randle just be like oh dude this is not my

my game, you know, necessarily, but sure, if you want to do it, let's go. Like, we need a fourth, so that he's invited now that he's in a golf foursum, right? They go to the club and it's, Randall's got all the gear, right? As opposed to Jack crew, wasn't that like, I got the cap, he's got the sweater vest. He knows how to, like, he looks the part. Yeah. Cannot golf. It looks like to save his life.

Terrible. It almost looks like lawn bowling or something. Yeah. And so they make fun of him, and he takes it, square on the chin, right? After a few bad shots in a row or whatnot, at a certain point, counsel is like, hey, man, you just need to slow down. Be easy on your back swing, be easy on your follow through, and see what happens. And you see Randall take his time, comes with the shot, boom, drops on a green. He says, you know what, man, slowing down helps a lot.

Thank you very much, councilman, right? He keeps walking on. I think he hits like another shot and he starts to, the councilman starts to find favor. He's giving them some coaching. He gives him another, like on his putt or something. He's like, oh, man, that was really helpful. I appreciate it. So at one point where he was not sitting next to councilman Wilkinson at an now point,

he's moved the person. I was like, Randall, come on, ride with me, right? So they're riding together. The golf day finishes much better than it starts. They're in the club. they're having a few drinks or whatnot. Randall has to pay up because he lost some money because they were gambling on the holes.

He's like, glad it wasn't as bad as it could have possibly been. Counselman, thank you for helping me out, save me some cash. They talk about what brought them to the game in the first place. Counselman's dad would paint the house of a golf pro in exchange for lessons. Other people just watching Tiger Woods. Somebody's aunt taught him how to play. And so everybody has an affinity to this game, right?

And Randall seems to be a little bit on the outside of that whole thing. But the councilman says to him like, hey, listen, man, you want to talk about your food, desert, whatnot? Like, come on to the house or to the office and I'll talk to. And he's like, thanks, man, I appreciate it. So they're walking back to the cars. Mission accomplished. Mission accomplished. We're walking back to the cars.

Everybody's saying good night, anything like that. And I get, I get, I'm a hold off. I'm not going to let it go. But it did get me. It got me too. Oh, it really got me. Did her? Yeah.

When you start to put the pieces together, right? Yeah. Yeah. And like you see Jack with Little Lonnie with Little Randall and they're like he's explaining all of this. You either have to play up or play down like all business is handled on the golf course or whatever. And then you see.

Mouse Fitz. Thank you. I got you. Then you see Niles and he's like continuing the tradition of he's at the, the what is it? Like, I don't know what? Driving range. He's at the driving range.

Because at the very beginning. He says, I've only played once. Like once. I've only played once. I've only played once. And so you think you're watching the one time he played with his dad. Yeah. It's a game of not white men can't jump, but black men can't golf.

And I'll just play into that for it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's the game he's playing. And then? And then it turns out that Randall can, like, play. It's a good golfer. He's a really good golfer.

And you see all these practice swings or whatnot. And then you see Randall just go back. He unbuttoned. like he he almost like ircled up on purpose like he buttoned the top buttoned you see him know how to wear it you know what I'm saying he totally on buttons and he's just swinging and he's just enjoying himself yeah and it's effortless and easy and fun and like it and then the last one where he turns because it like in earlier earlier in the episode is like he seems to like the water because he keeps hitting the hazards or whatnot and that's the way it was back in the day

Like father like son. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lonnie was hitting it into the water until he could finally get it over and whatnot. And he says, this one's for you, pop. And he turns and he hits a shot and it drops right into the water. And then he takes the club and he puts it into his thing and walks off. Yeah, it got me too. Yeah.

Yeah. I was like, I didn't expect that. I completely forgot about that twist. Yeah, me too. It was really, took a couple of lessons. Like, because they were like, Sterling, can you play? And I was like, I can have a good swing from time to time. But I took a couple of lessons and just started to really enjoy it.

Yeah. And just sort of like, there's the Zen. You know, they always talk about golf and just sort of being in the moment. It's a great sport for being in the moment. It's just a ball right there on the ground, you know. And you want to overhit it initially. You want to muscle it. You want to do all these things.

But like the club does all the work. And all you have to do is just keep your head down. Let that follow through happen. and just let it do what it's meant to do naturally. It was such a joy. It was to pay honor to Jack in that way. Like, it was sort of like anytime anything happens with dads, it's just, you know, brown is all sort of like together or whatnot.

But it was truly, truly beautiful. So that was a great storyline. I agree. Are either of you guys golfers? Like not a golfer, but I will go out and play. I'm better with an iron than I am a wood. And so maybe with my kids, I may learn how to take a few more lessons and do it. Are you good?

I'm better with wood. Are you really? I am a golfer. Okay. I'm not kind of, I don't currently golf. I grew up golfing. Oh, wow. Okay.

My grandmother taught me and my dad and my brother how to play. Your grandmother? Really? She was this incredible golfer, golfed. almost every day when she still could. And she had this, like, abbreviated arthritis stroke that she would 150 yards straight down the middle every time. Really?

You know, just 150 yards, straight down, always down the middle, always down the middle, always down the middle. And she taught us how to play, and I played a lot growing up, and then moved to Chicago or New York and just, like, didn't keep up with it. I play now once in a while. Okay.

But I don't tell enough people that I play. So people are always going golfing. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, I'd like to go golf at that. I guess I should probably tell them that I was like going to go one day. This is a PSA right now. Invite Sally to your golf game. For anyone listening.

Any one. Yeah. We'll go to Penmar. It was great. And play with Huartis. Okay. I bet Huertis is good. I bet he's good.

Because he's good at everything. He's good at everything. He's that dude. Shall we talk about Kev and Nikki and Cassidy? Yes. They're really cute together. This is a lot of fun. This little threesome.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where am I with this? Kevin Nicky. Kev is stalking Zoe online, right? He's just sort of like looking at her Instagram or whatnot. It seems like she's dating this dude or whatnot.

He shows it to Uncle Nicky's like, oh yeah, they're definitely knocking boots, et cetera. And Kev winds up saying for the first time, like, everything here sucks. That's my problem. So the woods are starting to get to him just a little bit, right? He thought he wanted the simple life. It turns out that the simple life is a little too simple for our boy, right? Yeah. But he's sticking around, was this new information?

I don't think we knew this before. Sticking around for Nikki's court hearing. Did we know that before? Not specifically. Not specifically. But we knew he had one coming up and hadn't, Kevin's the one who paid his bond, right? Yes. Which technically means he's responsible.

Yeah, okay. I guess so. For him showing up. Sure. Possibly. I'll go with that. I think. Sure.

And also, I think. like you said, the codependent version of him. He's keeping himself busy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What did he say? It's for a good cause. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not a cause. I'm a person.

It was just like a little peek inside Kevin's brain. He's around by there. He's getting a little tired of the place, and they're getting a little sort of fed up with each other too. Kevin Cassidy, they're at the gym. Kev's doing pull-ups, looking strong, et cetera. and she can. Let me tell you something. If a woman, this is, this is pure ego, pure machismo, comes up and spots me. Like, here you go, big guy. No, you got it. You're like, what? I was doing

just fine, thank you. And she's like, boom. And he turns around and looks at it. He's like, oh, shit. He's like, you need help with the pull-ups? And she's like, no. And old Jen Morrison is like, I got this, baby. Don't even worry. Yeah. How many you need me to do? I'm just. camera. You see my back muscles? Cool. It was great. Kevin is impressed as one of the gym employees promptly delivers him his usual protein shake order.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bench side, which is unusual and platious. Nobody comes to you, but it's Kevin Pearson, you know what I'm saying, so he's the man. And Cassidy points out that she wrote her number on the cup. She did indeed. Oh, yeah, look at that. Look at that. As if that doesn't happen to him every day.

Yeah. She said something about the state of the divorce in this conversation, but I can't remember exactly what she said. But, you know, clearly things aren't great. It started out, she went and talked with them. It started out good, and then it got heated, and she lost her temper. Gotcha. That's right.

Okay. Then now we see, is Kev on a date? He goes on a date. Yeah, yeah, yeah. After he says, I'm not going to use this number because it is not advisable per the recovery. I will add that they, Cassidy and Kevin Warren. chatting about I think he brings up the fact that he just broke up with someone and she's dating somebody else and why did they break up and he was like because I wanted kids and she didn't

she was like you want kids like it's I think that was like a total revelation for her very surprised so I'll just put that because I feel like that's relevant to agree which also she makes good points about like you don't you're not acting like you want kids yeah you're out in the middle of the woods with your uncle helping him with his sobriety living in a trailer. Yeah. You're not getting any younger. Yeah.

And so then the next thing we see, he winds up going on the date with Red, right? Yeah. And it seems like they're sort of hitting it off, sort of, you know, flirtatious or whatnot. The date continues, and he's talking about, you know, I don't see myself in a small town. I don't know what really is going on here.

And she's like, well, there's not a lot to do here except for... Do drugs and have sex. Yeah, yeah. And she's like, I don't do drugs. And you're like, oh, shit. That's very... forward young lady he's like all i do is knock these boots and and he's like well am i going to knock these boots or not right um so it turns out they're about to go back to the new trailer and a little

balsh gucuh wow wow except cassidy is there waiting for him and she's like sorry i thought you'd be alone and it turns out he sends red home right oh this is where she they talk about how it went with her husband, right? Is this where she's there? Well, it still is, I don't think. Yes. Talking about an argument with her husband, Ryan. You might be right.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, this is where it happens. Not at the gym. Not at the gym. Not at the gym. Not at the gym. All good.

And so sends her away, talking about that argument, right? And it looks like, are they about to knock boots? Like, they're getting all of in each other's face and et cetera. And then it turns out the kiss, it's a nice little kiss. She breaks it off. And she's like, like sorry got go something like that right she goes to walk away she goes to walk away so we're like oh man I thought boots was about to get knocked yeah just turns out to be a kiss right so then later in

the episode how do you knock boots so it's it's it's the motion that you make it's usually happens from like you from your feet back missionaire yeah yeah yeah yeah got it okay it's a missionary thing it's like because okay no okay sorry I asked is that cool sorry for that visual that's cool Uh, Kevin Nicky. So, yeah, you put two boots, one on each hand. And you just knock up. And you just bang your elbows together. No, no, no, it's on her feet.

Was I not clear? Kevin finds Uncle Nicky, like, raiding his refrigerator. He's raiding his refrigerator. He's making a sandwich. Yeah, and it's middle of the night. It's Kev's shirt off or whatnot, looks like he was asleep. He's like, could you knock or something like that? It's like, no, what did Nikki say?

You got cold cuts. Yeah. It's only a certain generation that refers to it as fresh cold cuts. Yeah. It was appropriate. Yeah. Cold cuts. And it turns out he goes back to the bedroom part of the trailer. And there's a naked Cassidy in bed covered up in sheets. And they did knock boots.

I like a good reader. Or at least slap toes. I like a misdirect. I really do. I enjoy it so much. Nobody does it better than this is up. Because I was like, I thought I called it. I was like, they're about to hit. And it's like, oh, she left.

They did it. Yeah. Yeah. You were right. What you were feeling. Careful. Careful on the boot. I feel like this sets us up.

You know, we're like, what, a third of the way through the season now? Yeah. And so it's interesting. Like the track that is being laid for the rest of the season and where things are going is, you know. Yeah. Exciting. It is. Thrilling.

Tittalating, as they say. There's, um, I, I, I, I, Because I remember a couple of things that are coming up, right? Like this dinner with Mr. Lawrence, I think, is a friend. I remember. I don't. Oh, I do. I mean, I remember there was a dinner, but I don't remember what it was about.

You're a part of it. It gets heated. There's some fun that's coming that way. Like, no more golf. Like, that was just a one-off sort of thing, but a really beautiful thing in terms of his father trying to give him something that he didn't have for himself, which I thought was really, really cool. The Cotoby was just the piano.

That came in, but the piano is cool. No, no. It was the sex. It was the sex. It was the sex. It was the sex. And we talked a lot about sex. Which I referred to as the piano. There you go. Toby and the piano. It is one of those things that you have to be, what is it?

If you're not on the same page, you've got to be at least in the same chapter. Like, because like you said, Mandy, it's like it's a part that is easily overlooked when there are other things that are seemingly more important, but it is important. Oh, it's very important. Right? And sometimes we have a way of reducing it as if it's just recreation. But connection, intimacy, like that is crucial. Foundational. Foundational even.

And it's like, yes. But these kids are the most important thing. And yes, one of the most important things that you can give you. children are a loving, connected mother and father. Parents. Parents. Yeah. Dad, dad, mom, two people. If you like frouples or quads, I don't care. A loving, a loving, caring thruple. There you go. Whatever the loving, that's more parents. Whatever the situation is. Whatever the loving, caring nature of the union is, because we are modeling what love looks like for them. Yes. Right? And you don't want to model neglect. No. You know what I'm saying? Sure. On

On either side of them... If you love someone, treat them this way. There you go. There you go. A good reminder. Yeah. It's a good episode. It's a good episode.

I enjoyed it. We took a break from a doucheback, but he will come back strong. Oh, he'll be back. Fear not. They always do. They always do, shabag. We're going to take a quick break. Be back with the fan segment.

Stay tuned for more. That was us. It's time for one of our favorite parts of the show, our fan segments. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So to all of our listeners who've been sending beautiful emails and voicemails, thank you. And also, it is really hard to pick just one. I know. Today, our listener, Perpetua, said that she's been watching,

This is us since the very beginning. Our producers read her email where she shared a heartfelt story about why Jack and Randall's relationship has always been so meaningful to her. and what her own experience has been like searching for belonging. Listen, we can't wait to hear from her directly. You know what I think we should just do? I think we should give her a call and hear her story. How about that, gang?

Agreed. Let's do it. Bring her up. Bring her up, producers. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello.

That did not go well. Sorry. Is that how we say your name? That is how you say my name. What a beautiful name. Girl. Thank you. How are you?

I'm doing really well. Just in case you didn't know. This is Sterling Brown. And Christopher Sullivan. And Mandy Moore. Yeah, we don't want to just randomly take it for granted that you knew who we were. So we should introduce ourselves. And we've been meaning to call you about your car's warranty.

Okay, perpetual. How are you today? I'm doing well. I'm enjoying the first day of fall. Yes, you are. Happy solstice, everyone. Where are we, where are you in the? the world today?

I am in Boston, so I get to enjoy the really quintessential fall. Heck, yeah. Good for you. I'm so jealous. That sounds delightful. Listen, we hear that in episode 406, known as the Clurb, that you have a particular sort of connection between the storyline regarding Jack and Randall. And we were wondering if you could speak to that connection here on our podcast.

Yeah, I'd love to. So I find the relationship that Randall and Jack shared to be really beautiful. And I love the depth that their relationship has and the depth that you and Milo brought to each character and all the other actors who played Randall because I think that the things that make them different are also juxtaposed against what they share in common. and it allows them to keep seeing each other and growing. So in this episode, I loved to see Jack take Landl to the golf course and introduce him to something that was kind of a vehicle for opening some more doors in his life because lots of important decisions can often be made on a golf course. And he was, Jack was also trying to relate to Randall and some of the insecurities that he felt.

And when he fell short, he didn't leave it there. He was willing to repair that moment and recognize that he didn't see Randall for a moment and try again. And it gave Randall, you know, this really awesome tool that he could keep in his back procket to save for a rainy day. I just love that. Like, it's a minor twist, but it still it's toughs my heart every time. And I feel like, it feels like all the characters are just like real people. And it just makes me think how wonderful it would have been to have more of those moments with Jack and Randall if Jack has survived the fire. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. You boiled that down quite well. I'm curious for

for you in terms of your point of connection. Are you feeling more like Jack? Are you feeling more like Randall? Are you feeling a little bit like both of them? I think I feel more like Randall. Randall was somebody who was always trying to find where he belonged. And sometimes even in his family, you know, for obvious reasons, like his skin color, but also just his personality, you know, that he wasn't always fitting in with what Kate and Kevin were up to.

Sure. You don't say it. Also, him just being a lot. Yeah. You know, for, you know. So, you know, you see that throughout the whole series, all these different ways he's trying to fit in and also make a difference and make his mark.

And I'm not an adoptee. I grew up within my biological family. But my parents are immigrants from the Caribbean, from Haiti. And so it meant that I think the challenge that many kids of immigrants will experience is that of wondering how much to fit in to assimilate and how much of their own cultures and ethnicities they hold on to and pass on. So sometimes I would find myself struggling two worlds and bringing too much of one world into one space and then too much of the other into another. and that was just how I was received and therefore that's how I felt and it I'm you know in my mid-30s now and I feel like I am finally starting to embrace all of the things that made me mean

even if some of it was like you know didn't feel totally acceptable to one group or to another And as Randall goes on that journey, too, like, I can't spoil it for all the people who are watching in real time. But especially in season five and six, you know, he gets to really confront his own personal history and kind of integrate all of that into his life and stop feeling like he's lost and start feeling more like he belongs to himself. And that's how I'm starting to feel, too. Wow. Good for you, Perpetra. You're making me smile, girl. Yeah, same, same.

And that's such like a beautiful distillation of the show and being able to relate it back to your own life. Like, wow. Was there any sort of, do you feel like it's just a matter of time and acceptance? Did you have any sort of inciting incident? It's like, you know what, instead of compartmentalizing myself in such a way or being something for someone else's benefit, I need to be me in order to have full,

access to the happiness and joy that I think I'm allowed in this world? Was there something that happened, or do you feel like something that naturally is occurring over time? Yeah. I think it was both. Okay. For one, around the time that the show premiered, I met my husband. Yeah, you did.

Come on now. We were just, we rolled in the same spaces. We met at church. We have a picture of you guys up right now. What is your husband's name? name? His name is Matt. Hi, Matt.

You guys are such a beautiful couple. Look at those smiles. Oh my gosh. It's such a good picture. Gorgeous. Okay. So you met during the show at church. You and Matt.

Yeah. And I think we both share this trait of being very reserved with the truest parts of ourselves waiting for like the right people to share that with and when I was fortunate enough to get a glimpse I felt like I really wanted to have the chance to reciprocate with him so we set off on the long journey of will they won't day and finally got together but yes will they did and we got married last year after being together for about seven years And especially in our first year of marriage, it's been like just constantly remembering that the gift that it is to have somebody in your life who sees you and wants to and is not afraid to admit when they have fallen short in that, just like with Jack and Randall. And it's also giving me the opportunity to learn that because sometimes I would think I was like really good at doing that.

And then learn in the moment that I needed to be a little better about accepting when I didn't see him fully and apologizing and being willing to start over. I assimilated into a lot of white culture when I was young. And some people think, oh, it's inevitable that you were going to marry a white husband. But I think the type of person that he is, no matter who that full belongs to, that's what would have made the time. difference and I'm just really glad it was Matt. Yes, you can tell them to kiss your ass. I didn't marry. I'm married Matt. That's my dude, man. Congratulations. Wow. Yeah, congrats. What an evolved human you are perpetual. I feel like, can I just like call you for life advice? Because you seem to have so much figured out. That's pretty like, I don't have anything to say. What am I going to say?

I will also add, like, if you want to put a little stank on when people say like, oh, you've assimilated to white culture or whatnot, you could tell them to kiss your black ass. And then now it's sort of like, give him a little point counterpoint. Don't get it twisted, homie. Dude, thank you so much for emailing and thank you for making time to talk to us today. Thank you for sharing your story. Yeah. Touch us. You're a beautiful soul. And thank you for everything. Thank you for being you. And the best of luck to you and Matt and your journey in love. You guys are beautiful.

I can't wait to hear more from you. Hopefully you'll hit us back later as life progresses. Thanks. It's been a pleasure to chat with you. I love listening to the podcast. And I can't wait for the step. We appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you. You have a blessed rest of the day. You too. Thank you. Bye. What a lovely human she is. I mean, what else is there to say? Yeah, I know. It's like sometimes you just get to observe and listen. There you go. You heard it. You heard her. Early 30s or whatnot. She's, she's ahead of me. Yeah, she's an old soul. For sure. She's doing well. It's been another wonderful episode of that. That was us with you two beautiful people, guys.

I love spending time with you guys. It's always a pleasure. Guys, listen, to our listeners, to our viewers here on YouTube and Spotify, Spotify, you know what, subscribe, tell a friend. Support our sponsors. That's a big one. That's how we pay for all. That's how we keep to ship right it as it were.

You know what I'm saying? So if you got a chance, please do that. It's our joy to be here and to share. show with you and just to share life with you and for me personally to share life with you guys. Yeah, I love you all very much. It's a big love affair going on here. And I hope you guys feel it as we speak it into existence. So, why don't you look at your camera? Tell the name of the show, Big Doc. That was us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions.

Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. da-da-dum that was us