That Was Us - Rebecca Confronts Nicky | "Songbird Road: Part Two" (312)

Episode Date: July 29, 2025

This week, we pick up where we left off, chatting about Season 3, Episode 12: Songbird Road Part 2! Rebecca arrives in town to confront Nicky and see for herself the secret Jack kept hidden all those years. Kevin does everything he can to help Nicky move forward while still struggling with his own mental health. Meanwhile, Kate and Randall recall some childhood memories with Jack very differently. On the podcast, Mandy, Chris, and Sterling explore how our brains store and reshape memories, unpack family dynamics, discuss who the fun parent in the group is, and so much more. Plus, we have a very special fan segment with Larry Meyers, who shares the incredible work done by Operation Delta Dog. That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - Every summer has a story—hosting on Airbnb could be part of someone else's. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. - Get a free can of OLIPOP: Buy any 2 cans of Olipop in store, and Olipop will pay you back for one Works on any flavor, any retailer URL: drinkolipop.com/TWU OLIPOP is sold online (drinkolipop.com + Amazon) and available in almost 50,000 retailers nationwide, including Costco, Walmart, Target, Publix, Whole Foods, Kroger and HEB. - For a limited time only, get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping when you head to Smalls.com/TWU. - Brought to you by Bombas, One Clothing Item Purchased = One Clothing Item Donated Head over to Bombas.com and use code TWU for 20% off your first purchase. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00 Intro 00:00:32 Discussion 01:00:53 Fan Segment 01:26:53 Wrap Up 01:28:04 Outro Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz, Rob Holysz & Jeph Porter Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of That Was Us, we're diving into season three, episode 12, Songbird Road, part two. While Kevin continues to try to get Nikki the help he needs, Rebecca tries to come to terms with everything Jack never told her. Meanwhile, Kate and Randall recall differing memories of their childhood. All right, all right. Here we go. What's going on, y'all. Hi. Here we go.

We did the 3-Eleven. We got at a wonderful time with our man Griffin done. And so this is sort of just a continuation from one to the next. We've lost Chris already. He's so uninterested. Chris is getting a little shot of caffeine. He felt himself going down. That's all right, you guys.

He felt himself going down. Maybe a future sponsor, we'll see. Pump up. Let's see, let's see if we approve. Oh, you guys. See, I won't, we're talking to them. I hope they come on as a sponsor. Okay.

It's one of my favorite supplements. Really? It's just straight, like, what is the drink? The drink is called Magic Mind. Oh, I've heard of Magic Mind. Sharper Mind, nice calm energy. Okay. Yeah, Ashwaganda.

Gotcha. Green tea, macha, things like that. You know what I mean? Yes, sir. Very, very good. I need some magic. Mind in my life. Oh, come on, Magic Mind.

Where are we at? Speaking of which, right? So we left off with the big three just coming back into Uncle Nicky's trailer at the end of 3-11. With the gun on the table or whatnot. Randall sort of took the gun away or whatnot. Kevin calmly places his hand on Nikki. And now he's like, listen, you're going to go with us.

We're going to take you to the hotel with us, right? And they get to the hotel and Nikki, like, immediately. immediately starts doing like strange stuff. He closes the curtains. He's looking, you know, in different corridors. We don't know exactly what he's looking for. But like, I guess we don't have to. It's mental math.

It's the done method. That's right. The done method. If you listen to the last episode, you'll know what we're talking about. He's doing long division. Yeah. Fractions. So they go out into the hallway.

They do a little kibbts. And then, again, one of my favorite things, because Kev starts to talk immediately. And Randall's like, uh-uh. Is that scripted or is that, do you guys set that up in the blocking? I thought the same thing. Because I was like, that's an odd thing to write in a script.

I don't know. I can't remember. Yeah, to me, I was like Sterling must have flagged. Like, this is, we're right outside the door. We have to go down the hall. You had to. Yeah. Yeah.

We got to move down. So we moved five feet. Yeah. Yeah. And then continue the conversation. Yeah. But Kev is determined to get help for his uncle. He's going to call his mom.

They, nobody else wants to call mom. I think everybody could sense Rebecca's sort of like trepidation with this. new person being introduced in her life that she could have known, but never had an opportunity to know? And the realization that Jack lied for her? Didn't tell the truth. I always like to say Jack didn't tell the truth. I don't know.

I'm going to call it what it is. It's a lie. Can't say Jack lies. How dare you. Hot take. It's a hot take. It's a hot take. And you'll see, like, everybody is upset about it, right?

And the healthiest way possible, because it makes sense to be upset that he didn't get a chance to get the full truth and or being lied to. As soon as there's a little crack, you start to wonder, well, if that's, if we didn't know about that, what else don't we know about? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep, yep. So it turns out,

Kev winds up staying up all night, right? Doing research on, on different programs, vet programs that they could possibly get Nikki back into to try to get them some help. Yeah, because they're in over their head. I mean, he clearly has a problem with alcohol. There's some sort of other mental health issues that are factoring in his,

as well, his living situation, maybe there's a bit of, like, agoraphobia. Like, he just, he seems to be uneasy and uncomfortable, like, outside of his, his trailer, right? Like, his personal space and around other people. Yeah. So, yeah, it's, like, Kevin very kindly is, like, stayed up. Like, this is his mission is to sort of get Uncle Nikki set up. Yeah. They have a little bit of a conversation.

Turns out he talked to Mom last night, and Mom's sort of unclear. He's unclear in how Mom's feeling. about the whole thing. They're all, Nikki comes down. They sort of go hush and just sort of make him comfortable. And I always love, I love it when Rebecca shows up right before they introduce it, the introduction of the title sequence. She's like, so here I am.

Yeah. And when Mandy shows up, like, it's always just like, she knows. She's like, yeah, I'm here now. Yeah. Really? We can start the show. Roll credit. Roll credit.

It's my favorite. You do know how to button. You know how to hit that button. You really, really do. You have enormous presence. Oh, thanks. You know that, though. Oh, she got a huge presence.

I think Rebecca has, like, there is a weight and authority, especially, like, with her children, with her family, like, she has had to be the glue for 20 years. for her children. And so I feel like in this particular situation when like everyone is being thrown through a loop and she's kind of like everyone's knocked off their access a little bit. I feel like she's really good at rising to the occasion and just sort of like being present, staking her claim showing up. Who played her?

Who played Rebecca Pearson? That's right. Just check her. She gets a little bit of a presence from Mandy. That is not. Not me. That is not how I show up in the world. I feel you. But that's how you show up as Rebecca Pierce.

It's fun to like to like own that a little bit. Like she's very unafraid of like filling those shoes. What are we doing, bitches? Yeah, kind of. To your point. I did a round table recently with some really wonderful actors. One of my heroes is a young woman by the name of Alison Janie. And she was talking about how she loves playing these strong characters or whatever.

Because it's like, because it's not me. Right? I was like, you look like any room you walk into. And she's like, guys. it's acting. So I understand what you're saying, but it's Allison Janney. But it's Allison Janney.

She's six foot four. She's awesome. So the first thing that you ask is like, did you know about us? Right? When we come back and he says yes. Yeah, because Rebecca's face when she shows up, you're like, what?

It was one of, it's another one of those faces, your face when you get the phone call for the election. Like, what is she thinking? Is it anger? Is it? What is it? What is it? Yeah.

What is it? Well, she also says immediately, like, you have his eyes. That's right. Like, and how spooky that must be. Like, this person who I thought was dead, is alive, and they're here, and my husband lied about this, and why did he lie, and why was... There is so much swirling around, but then to see someone who is family, and, you know, beyond knowing his dad who passed away, knowing him for a brief blitz,

for a brief blip of time, like, to not know Jack's family at all, like, is, this is so, it's just, like, stirring. It's really, I, I just can't imagine everything that she's sort of cycling through at that given moment. So, yeah, I love that she sort of, like, called, that, like, stops her in her tracks. Like, wow, on top of everything, I can recognize my husband and you, too. Yeah. Quick question.

This is just, did you ever meet? His mom, no. You never met mom. No. I mean, not on camera. I imagined we had some sort of, like, surface relationship with her because when she does pass away in, gosh, was it the final season or the fifth season? I think it's the final season.

Is it fine, yeah. Yeah, six season. I think, like, it was alluded to that, like, there was definitely an estrangement, like some sort of, like, distance between them. Right, right, right. So in my mind, I always just assumed, like, his family was kind of off limits, you know? Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. there's so many flashbacks that happen in this episode that it's kind of hard to like jump and then they inform exactly what's happening like in the next time so do we just go through it in order or do you feel like we address one thing in order yeah we can go through it in order sure it's a little different for us yeah just as the episode sort of progressed exactly okay hear people in their cars do what you want it's your podcast it's our podcast guys okay so there's a flash to jack and

Rebecca, back in the day, they're laying in bed, Jack can't sleep, but still won't talk about it. Like, you see Rebecca trying to find a way to sort of get in there, and he just sort of shuts it down. But there's this thing, he's supposed to take Kev to get a card by John Smiley signed, his rookie card, and she's like, listen, hey, you're clearly not in the mental space to do it. I will take Kev, all good. She's like, you sure, sure, all good. Yeah, he wants a day. Also, probably the most vulnerable thing a man of that time could ask for. And definitely Jack.

Yeah. Like, this is not like him to sort of rally and like push through it. I'm not going to therapy. I'm not talking to you about it. But I need a day. But I need a day. Yeah. Yeah.

I need a day to pump some weights like push. I'm like, what? He's out of the garage, like pumping iron. I mean, at some point. That's his day. That's his day. To be fair, we've seen, we've seen him's body. Yeah.

At some point, you had to. show us where the weights were. He had to do something. Where are these weights? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like this man. Yeah. Where is the workout equipment? Yeah, exactly. It's, okay. Randall's workout is mostly plyometrics. Yes. And body weight. Yes. It must be because we don't see evidence that treadmill's out of the bedroom now, as it were. So we're running on the road. That's what's happening. So next morning, Kate's like, where's my gift? Because I guess evidently most of the time when he goes, Has this been established, like, snow globes for Kate when you go out of town?

The only snow globe I remember was Randall at the hospital. With Christmas. For Christmas? Well, I guess they're trying to make that come back around again. I think, because it hit for me. Every time my dad went on a trip, he brought pins from the Hard Rock Cafe back. Cute. That's awesome, man.

Because at that time, they were in every major city. My dad was an airline captain, and so when he would go on big international trips to, like, new places. Like, I remember once he went to Paris and he brought me back like a little trio of disgusting perfumes, but I was like so excited. So yeah, it's like I, when parents- You smelled gross for two years. Oh, yeah. I like, I remember I was like, no, this isn't for me, but I'm going to save it and like put it on display in my room. So yeah, that idea of like parents going out of town and giving you a gift. Well, I guess it also just sort of, he's so distracted and the things that he normally does.

He's not doing right now. Yes. Right. Okay. Didn't bring it back. Kev's anxious to get his card signed and is not looking forward to going with mom. Like, this is, I had this sort of very acute feeling of empathy for Ryan Michelle Bathay as I was watching Rebecca go through this because I have two boys who I adore and love. And if I say, like, we're about to go do something.

And they're like, oh, okay, cool, let's go do it. And then if I can't do it because I have to come to a podcast or I have to go to work, et cetera, and then like, mom will do it. The visible, like, letdown? Yeah. I was like, fellas, she's a really good person. She's also right there. Yeah.

You're not helping me out in the room. I know this is my future. I already see it. You think so? Oh, I'm not the fun parent. Not at all? No. Did you think you would be?

No, I knew I wasn't going to be. I thought I was going to be. And I am not. You're not the fun parent? Can you believe I'm not the fun parent? I cannot believe that. Can you believe it? That's a real hot thing.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. I think that's according to you. I bet you if I ask the kids, they might say something different. No, I'm the one with boundaries. I make boundaries. Listen, guys, I make boundaries too. Yeah. I'm a lot of fun.

This is my point. I need to fun it up. I need to find it up to. My patience. My patience is too short. I'm just not like naturally inclined to like, hey, when Gus is like, okay, I'm an allosaurus and you're a pleasiosaurus. I'm like, nah, no, no, no, no. I mean, I will, but I'll do that for like three minutes and then my, like, fun meter runs out.

I am always a unicorn. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like, how about I go make dinner? Like, I'm better at, like, I'm like, I'll make the doctor's appointments. I'll wake up early, make breakfast. Like, I'm way better at that sort of structure. And dad can roll around with you and be Captain America. And, like, I'm, you know what I mean? And that's where the sort of, is it serotonin, oxytocin?

The rush, I think, by and large, for moms comes from caregiving. Yeah. And the rush for dads, by and large, comes from play. But I'm in the same boat with you. Really? Yeah, but I am also the lady in my relationship. So it works out. I am too.

I am too. I have more feminine energy. Really? I got a little bit of both. I'm not going to let's cut that for Rachel. No, Rachel knows. We've had enough couples therapy. We've talked about it last night.

My wife and I have a similar story. We've talked about this offline. We digress. Anyway, I digress. Okay. So we're back with Rebecca and the adult three. And they're remembering that weekend. And you're saying like he was acting so strangely.

Yeah. Right? Kevin wants to get him to this vet. center, but Kate has doctor's appointments. Randall's wife just lost her job. I'm about to start this new job and I don't know if I really have time for it. And Kev is like, yo, you drop anything to go for anyone else. For anybody else. And now we find like our actual uncle and you just don't have time for it. He's in his feelings. And we see it and like, you know, Kate and Randall just sit there and let him say it. And then he he apologizes immediately. But like, we haven't seen Kev

want something before like this like this yeah you know would you say we have i mean like even in his career i would go into the writer's room and they would talk about kevin and they're like do you think kevin's a good actor i say yeah i actually think kevin's a very good actor yeah i just don't think he necessarily loves acting right like i think that there's a difference between people who are good at something and they love that thing and i think kev is somebody who's in search of what does he wish to give his life to? What purpose energy? Absolutely. And this is like the start of that for him as a human being of like this, maybe this is my purpose. I don't think he realizes that obviously at this juncture. But it's like, but he recognizes that this is a new feeling of like

wanting to be of service. They've found this person. They didn't know existed. Like how it's impossible to think that everybody wouldn't just like clear the decks. to figure this out together to like help this person to like aid them to figure out what their next step is and but it's also understandable that like Randall and Kate like this isn't what they signed up for they didn't life is still lifeing very real for both of them and Kevin just so happens to have a bit more of a you know empty plate sure in that it's also a real addict move like early an early recovery addict move is to be like all in it's a little codependent right like like like wanting to something for this person that they have not said that they want for themselves. And if I can't do it, who else will do it sort of? And this hyper focus, but it's also matched up with, in early sobriety, being of service is a big thing, all right? Right. You know, to take the focus off of yourself.

But yeah, it's a little, I mean, it's dramatic. It's a dramatic TV show. It's a little, but it is also a little manic on Kevin's part. It's like up all night. We're here. I'm doing this. I'm all in. Sure.

You just met the guy. Yeah. You know what I mean? You don't know anything about him. Yeah. More that was us after these words from our sponsors. Do you know what summer always reminds me of? What?

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That's why they have a dedicated small business advice hub on their website to provide tips and insights on business banking to entrepreneurs. No matter the stage of business you're in, visit td.com slash small business advice to find out more or to match with a TD small business banking account manager. So this begins sort of like a little sub thing of Randall and Kate driving back home. And they're sort of reminiscing on things. And Kate's just sort of trying to wrap her mind around the fact that there's a family member that they didn't know about that they could have known about. And Randall says to her, just because dad kept something from us doesn't mean. you didn't know him. But I can only imagine with something that massive,

that that feeling is fairly natural. You know, like what else did I not know? Right. I think Randall again is more at ease with it because he didn't know about a birth father that was around or whatnot and sort of had to deal with that thing already. And now Kate is actively trying to be like,

oh man, that must have been a massive mind. Right, right. You know what I mean? Yeah. But they make this decision. they make this, they're remembering the sequin fight that they had when they were kids and they're missing the old house and like it turns out, I guess, geographically, we have to pass the old house in terms of getting back to New Jersey or whatnot. So they decide to go and stop by, right? Even though it doesn't exist anymore.

Even though the house doesn't exist. Yeah, because Randall's like, the yard's there, the street's there, like, let's just, let's go see it. And this is, this will lead to having, I don't know if you guys know this one, but I'm going to tell you. I'll tell it to you in a second. Yeah. There's a little story from the show in a second. So I decided to go see the old lot. But back in the day, Jack, Kate, and Randall, Kate's doing an arts project.

Jack is checked out. He's like, I don't, like, what are you talking about the allosaurus and everything? Jack's is like, I don't have the mental bandwidth to do this right now. He goes to sit on the porch. And this was a lovely. Shout out to Lonnie in this episode. There's a couple of things that are really, really choice. But one of them is like, he sees his dad as bothered.

He goes out onto the porch. He goes, hey, dad. And he just puts his head on his shoulder. And there are some moments in life, right? When you need connection, but I don't need too much else other than that. And like for a little kid to read the room like that, I was like, right on, Randall. He's always had that emotional intelligence. Yeah.

It's beautiful. Okay. So now we're back to Kev, Rebecca, and Nikki. Present. Sorry. You're, like, thank you for being on it because I did segment it out. So I'm just like, I'm going to let Sterling drive this car because I don't know where we are. It's all good.

Okay. And if you want to chime in with anything else. Oh, I will. I will. I just, uh. Okay. Kev Rebecca and Nikki. Nikki's looking around.

Oh, they're at the vet center. Yeah. They're at the vet center. Nicky's looking around. And I do love, like, Griffin said this before. Like, there's no overplaying of anything, but there's always. always just like, why am I here? It's like, yeah, this looks great.

It looks good for you, looks good for me. I don't, I don't need it. I was fine where I was. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Perfectly fine. He says, I'm a drunk. I can't leave my trailer without getting the shakes.

And he tries to warn Kevin, you know, and Kev sort of gets upset and excuses himself. Kevin, Rebecca, have a conversation. He's frustrated. And they both talk about just being mad at dad, right? And just the necessity of being able to verbalize it, right? I think it's interesting for the audience who has loved Jack and now we're finding out all this other stuff about him because I'm wondering if we're functioning,

son and wife are functioning as audience to a certain extent. I wonder if the audience got mad at Jack. But I don't know if they did or not. Like I wonder like if you set them up at the beginning and he's just superman. Let us know in the comments. Let us know in the comments because that's a really curious question

because he's so larger than life or whatnot. Do they get upset with this new information that they're finding out? Or they're just like, oh, it's Jack? Yeah. He gets a pass. I'm guessing he gets a pass. You expect him the latter?

I'm guessing people. Like if Jack, that's what Jack decided, that's probably what was best. Cut to Rebecca, keeping a secret. Now listen here, ladies. You witch. There was a bit of a double standard but also, I mean,

it's not apples to apples, let's be honest. Fair enough, fair enough. To be fair, Mandy, these are not apples at all. These are human beings, okay? Correct. Ruud. That was rude. Let's see.

There's a flashback to Kevin Rebecca. All right? They're waiting in line to get the smiley card, rookie card sign. Rebecca's hungry. She's like, we should go get some need. And he's like, no, I want to stay here, get the thing signed. She's like, look, this is not a, like, this is what's going to happen.

Yeah. My man drops to the ground. Yeah. My 10-year-old self got triggered. I'm like, that's not how, as it was why, I'm like, that's not how this works. You don't go. You don't go and then get back in line because the line's always going to be here. It's like, there's a 10-year-old party.

And there's a parent in me. It's like, I told you this is what we're going to do. Same. That also triggered me. I was like, who was that me? I definitely had that tone where it was like, a little slight bend down. I'm sorry. Who are you talking to, sir? Yeah. It wasn't a request. Yeah, what I said was. We're going to get some lunch and we'll come back. Yeah. Yeah.

Kudos to you for not like causing a scene in the middle of the place. How can I resolve this? All right. You stay. I'll go get lunch. Yeah. Here's just a different to highlight different times. Oh, yeah. I would never leave my 10-year-old. Would you leave your 10? That's the question that I was about to have. Never. I don't care if I'm going next door. Yeah. No.

I'll give you so because my kids are a little bit older. I wish. I wish we didn't. I got almost 14, almost 10. Because I have the almost 14, I can leave them for a little bit of time. But even after two hours, right, I get a lot of text from Andrew. Where are you guys? When are you coming back? What's going on? So there's about two hours is about the way.

window that is coming now in public because i also have the 14 year old i'm okay sort of the amari would not be by himself but that's a big difference between amari being the youngest because even if they were the same age kev has a level of independence and you talk about it a little bit later in terms of like he's always sort of been the one that's a little bit trickier to figure out right um because he seems so together right and he's both of those things at the same time. He's like, no, I'm going to do this thing that I said I'm going to do, but it doesn't mean that I don't also need something from people as well. Does that make sense? Yes. Yeah. He's a fascinating character. He really is.

I love him. I absolutely love him. Okay. Back to driving with Nikki. Then there's a flat, wait, nope, sorry. Yeah, see. Wrong on brown. It's confusing. Rebecca's ready to have a conversation with Nikki. Yeah. That's the thing that we have. I think it's time for the two of us to talk. And then we jump to this Indian family. Yeah. Yes. You're like, who are these people?

How do they factor in? Was there more story to them? This is what I'm about to tell you. Please. Yeah, there was, there had to be something cut out. This is where Brown has an anecdote about This Is Us, right? Hot take. Dan had a germ of an idea for a while that he could continue the show, but in continuing the show, he would

take the life of a new family that lived in the same place and explored from there. Is that why that father was such a famous actor? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, how did they get this guy to do two scenes in our show? So for a few seconds, there's this idea that, like, it would be like a spinoff of sorts. Sure. But it's because they occupied the same space geographically and then just sort of exploring their story.

He was going to call it that was us. He probably was going to call it that was. We beat them to the punch. We beat them to the punch. But like it was, the family was really cool. Because it felt like a bit of a head fake. It felt like, oh, these people must be. This is us has done this before.

They've shown us new people and they're consequential in some fashion. Yeah. And they don't really end up in the episode. It's like, oh, yeah, no, they just live there. They just live in that house. That was it. Okay. Interesting.

There was the possibility of it turning into something up. I want to know next time we talk to Dan, what the next scene with that family was going to be. Like, what was your next move? Well, because you had the daughter who is she newly divorced or, like, she estranged from her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's going through something with her husband or whatnot.

You got the young girl. And she comes to the door with Randall and Kate. Randall trying to be his most gracious self, which is completely awkward and weird. And she just closes the door. I ain't got time for this crap. Now it's not a good time. Now it's not a good time.

So there's that. now go to oh going back in time this is Jack and Randall I don't think we should do this anymore but we'll do it to explore it for this one time okay just to see how it goes it's confusing it's confusing but then we won't do it

ever again so sorry to all this we could flip it right now and finish this storyline yeah we'll finish this storyline because this I think this episode in particular too there was a lot of different storylines and that was all I mean the way you're describing it was like this scene and then this timeline, and then back to this timeline,

and then back. Most of our episodes are structured in a slightly easier to follow rhythm. This one was like, oh, wow, oh, wow. It was a little whiplashy. It bounced the light. It was hard for me to actually so stratify it in that way. And the theme is it's all of this stuff living underneath, right?

So whether it's Jack's darkness or Kevin's consideration, like this whole bit, whatever the thing, it's like, there's, we all have another level that maybe we don't show everybody. Yeah. So, okay, let's continue with Kate and Randall. Yes. Because then we can just sort of follow it from back and forth. So after the door has been slammed in their face. Yeah. They go sit in the car. They go sit in the car. They're having a conversation.

Yeah. And do they talk about the sequin fight or do they wait until they're invited back into the house, invited into the house by the little girl? I think they talk about, they may mention it briefly in the car and then they talk about it more because she goes, this is where it happened, right? Because the living room and the dining room. were sort of flipped in the house from where they were before. And she's looking and she's like, this is where it happened.

This is where the sequin fight happened, right? And Randall's like, I don't know if that's exactly how it went down, right? Like, I don't think it was as good of memory. It wasn't a good memory. It was a bad memory. As you think, right? Remember the dish? The dish, the plate, the broken plate.

And you flash back and they were allowed to go order pizza for the first time. Yeah. This is the other money. I'm an adult and I'd like to order a pizza. That was another great. A great Lonnie moment. That brother, a little pee came out, Jack. I'm telling you, a little trickle of urine, because I laughed real hard.

He was like, I'm an adult. And they start cracking up with each other. And then McKinsey, before he was like, we get together our own pizza. And before that, he goes to see his dad, and he's, like, he said, pumping iron, lifting weights or whatnot. And he's like, I ain't got time for this. If you guys want to order pizza, go ahead and do it. And you could see on Lonnie's face. He was like, what?

You want us order pizza? Now, can I ask a pizza delivery now ubiquitous? Yeah. how we all get pizza. Did that happen when we were kids? Pizza delivery? When did pizza delivery start? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I had it back. Definitely back. This was like, what, 92? I definitely know we had it as kids. Yes. Our parents did not. No, no, no.

So somewhere in between. Right. Pizza delivery became a thing. Because when she said, we get to get her own pizza, I remember the excitement. Oh, yeah. It's delight. Of having pizza delivered. Oh, bro.

My mom would give life. And I'm just wondering when that. Who was the first? When did it start? When did somebody go? The historical context of pizza delivery. Because I do remember going to the hut and sitting down with like the sort of misted cups. It was a sit-down restaurant.

You know what I'm saying? You went to a pizza parlor. Right? They had the salad bar with like the covering or whatnot. Very fancy for pizza, by the way. Oh, you get to be a parlor. Yeah. you're not a restaurant we're a parlor shakies the hut was shakies with the buffet and the jojo potatoes right but then I and then the hut was something special the hut was like a family night out also personal pan pizza shout out personal pan pizza

read enough books over the summer book it book it program book it program book it program get those first way what year did companies start delivering pizza pizza pizza delivery began in italy post world war two and game popularity in the U.S. by 1943. So they did have pizza delivered. That's what this says. That's what cookist.com says. They could have had pizza delivered. I don't believe it. But anyway, I'll get back to you. Maybe in certain corners of the country.

But that feels like a tall order of her. Yeah. There's this excitement they have. She's like, holy crap. He does this thing. They get the pizza. And he is the dad comes in. He's like, what's going on? I got like one of every thing that everybody likes in the family.

I think I would call it like Pearson Pizza, et cetera. They were in the middle of doing the art project, but there's like sequins all over the place. Like the house is a mess. Yeah, they're making Valentine's. There's nothing worse than walking into your home and expecting it to look one way. And it not looking that way?

Yeah. And Jack is feeling all of that. Like, what the hell? I told you not to make a mess. I told you all this. Get out of my face. He starts to clean up. He goes to the kitchen.

so mad. We hear the plate. Bam, right? The kids walk up, go into the kitchen, they look on the floor, shattered dish everywhere, right? He says, you know, slipped as I was trying to put it into the sink. It said, and we all have those moments, man. Like, I, I, I, okay, this is not me, because I actually don't think I do have these moments. There was a guy I knew. Let me tell the story about a friend of mine. Andrew was three or four years old. I was in the bedroom and I heard like this slamming in the kitchen like a pot hitting like a wall or something like that. I was like, what's going on? So I get up out of the kitchen, out of my bedroom, I walk to the kitchen.

I was like, hey, what's going on? What happened? What was that? And Andrew at three or four was like, he's just looking there like stone face. I was like, AJB, he's like, um, okay, so I was watching TV. And then I saw a pot hit the back kitchen door. And then I saw Mom standing there. And that's what I saw.

And that's what I saw. He's four. He's like, I'm not throwing anybody under the bus. Like, you asked me, I'm going to answer the question as matter of factual as possible. I love that he didn't incriminate a single person. Nope, that's what I saw. Here are the facts and just the facts. And then I saw Mom.

That was it It was amazing But we all We'll have those moments Those moments are understandable Of course We never see Jack In this way

Ever I mean like He rarely is rattled He definitely never loses his temper And so this is To see him like this with his family With his kids Needing a day

And then like being so angry It's like yeah Clearly this experiencing his brother has really just, like, thrown him through. Strow him completely off. And it's funny because then we go back to the Indian family and they're both having these two different remembrances of the past. And then the Indian family is very kind of like,

I guess, you guys should probably. Yeah, we've got plans. We got stuff going on. So they go back outside and they're standing there. And Kate's like, I just like not remember our childhood. at all, that I misremember all of it, like, no, it's not that. Like, he did a good job of sort of, what's the, there's a line. I can't remember it exactly.

Do you have it? We all have bad days as parents, and we hope that the good outweighs the bad, hope the good stuff sticks. Yeah. Like, something to that end. Something to that effect, right? And because we do find out it was also the day of the sequin fight. Yeah. Right.

He comes back from the kitchen, he's like, you know, dad is, Dad's a little tired of having a bad day. And I'm sorry. Like, and I think that's the beautiful thing about it. And that's a thing that probably a lot of our generation above us didn't necessarily do, recognizing the necessity and the power of apologizing. Right. And acknowledging.

You know what I'm saying? Repair. It was a beautiful moment of repair. Yeah. And then, again, he's like, something's happening with my hand. He's, first of all, he compliments the pizza. He's like, pizza is delicious. It's great.

We should call it something. We should call it Pearson Pearson. That's right. Right? And then what's up with these sequins and like, I don't know what just happened? Just tosses the sequence. It's like something's wrong with my hand. It's all reminiscent of the claw from my...

Yeah. Here comes goofy guy. You know what I'm saying? And they just start tossing sequences to where Randall goes, Sequin fight? And a sequin fight ensues. And there's joy and mirth and merriment. Also, pause.

I don't think a sequin fight is safe. I'm funny. They're small. I know. There's a real disclaimer. They're very sharp. And I'm going to say like, listen, Jack, I appreciate where you went with that one. But to all parents today, in 2025, don't have a sequin fight.

Don't throw sequins at your small children. Yeah. Period. Okay. Period. Well, also it's like you don't want them to eat them. You don't want to eat them. We don't want them to hit their eyeballs, scratch their eyes.

You could block up like an earhole or something. You don't want to go. Oh, the nose. No, no. No, no nose on that one. There you go. I didn't even think about that hole. Oh.

Didn't even think about that hole. Think about those holes. There you go. Jeez. All that stuff. Anyway, then we can, there is this beautiful moment that ties into Jack and, excuse me, Kevin and Rebecca's storyline. Rebecca winds up coming back with the food while Kevin is in line and she sees him talking to Smiley. You seem like a very nice young man, by the way.

Yeah. Like, I like the casting. Yeah. I was like, you look like a clean-cut guy who just loves baseball. Yeah, easy to root for you. Very easy to root for you. His name? His name's listening.

And so you quietly observe the conversation happen and whatnot. And then Kev says he has to go to the bathroom before they hit the road. And you're like, yeah, go to the bathroom. I'll see you when you get back. But he doesn't tell me what they talked about. When I asked him, I'm like, what were you guys talking about? Like I saw them having a, they were chatting. They were having a full-on conversation.

He's like, nothing. I just had him sign my baseball card and that was it. I got to go to the bathroom. right so rebecca takes the lead and the chance she sees this baseball player on his way out and she's like sorry you you actually just signed something for my kid like can i ask like what were you guys talking about yeah and he's like oh well he was just telling me he heard that i might be traded to Milwaukee yeah and he did some research and was was had a bunch of different pool halls uh in Milwaukee that i could shoot pool at yeah and he also like

gave me the name of a couple of karate studios in Milwaukee. Thank you for that. Sorry. No, no, it was perfect. Karate. Because on the back of his rookie card, it had like all of his hobbies and the things that he, his interest, the things he enjoys. And, you know, John Smiley made a mention, like, you, what a, like, thoughtful young boy, like, good kid that you've raised there or something. And I think you just see Rebecca clocking that, like, wow.

This guy does constantly surprise me when I least expect it. Like, that's not the Kevin that I get to see on a daily basis and to know that he's out in the world participating in life and being kind to a stranger, someone that he admires like that. Yeah. It's just, as a parent, I'm sure that just, like, kind of blows your mind a little bit. Yeah.

Yeah, all of these themes about the shift in perspective, right, a little moment like that that, like, can change your entire perspective on your son. or a lack of truth on your dead father's part that can shift your perspective on him. The stories that we tell ourselves about our lives in the form of memory. Yeah, man. Some of which are accurate.

But I heard this great NPR interview I've really just gone into podcast mode here. Let me tell you about an NPR interview that I heard. Every time you remember something, it degrades a little. Oh. So every time you have a memory, you remember something. It becomes a little bit shifted each time. Yeah.

So the stories that we tell ourselves about what is true may or may not be true. And the things that the things that, the things. that are truly traumatizing things like PTSD these actual experiences that Nikki's going through this this woman's scream that he can't get out of his head these are real things sure right and it's just fascinating that two children can be in the same room living the same life in the same family and have two opposite memories yeah of how that played out yeah I've heard our there are therapists that every child is born into a different family

yeah i've heard that when you have siblings yeah if you're the first you're in a you're you're born to parents who have never parent before right if you're the second you're born into a family that already has one kid and so there are these minute perspective changes that that can like be miles apart even though you're standing right next to each other yeah and it's interesting to kind of work back through those things and and sometimes you get the confirmation and other times you are like my mom now she's getting to an age where she'll bring up something i'm like i have no recollection of that yeah and that sounds important or i'll have a vivid memory of something from when i was four and she'll bring it up and it's exactly as i remember it

which is equally as crazy yeah you know it's true it's fascinating the way that the way that it all plays out you just made me think about um like Like, Sterling Brown Jr., my dad, and like the nature of memory with regards to it, because I was 10. So it's been like almost 40 years. Wow. Almost 40 years. And there's these things that I hold on to, like, as tightly as I can. But almost when I hold onto it tight, it's like, is that what it was?

And more than events, I can remember feeling. Right. Like how I felt in his presence, you know. And I find interestingly enough that it's enough that I was like, I really enjoyed being in his presence. And that's cool. Because then sometimes I'll be like, oh, did this happen? Like I remember things like we would play Monopoly And anytime I thought I had him bankrupted

He would reach into his shirt pocket And pull out all these like $100 bills like the yell I was like oh my dad's an asshole But like a really great asshole I thought I had him And he's like oh yeah I can get I can I can pay for that You do stuff like that It's hilarious

I can remember I can remember a party that they had my mom and dad and they had people over at the house and everything and this is about my mom and my dad

because I am going to say something about my mom in the next episode but my mom gave me a note to give to my father in this party. I think I'll tell you guys this before. And I give the note to my dad and he's hanging downstairs.

We got like a whole rec room like pool table, dartboard, you know, open bar, mini bar, et cetera. And he just excuses himself. And for like the next 17 minutes, I can't find my mom or dad. And then they come back. Yeah, man.

This is just gangster. That is gangster using you. He gave me a note. When at what stage in your life did you realize what had happened? Probably in my teens. You thought back. on that, you had that memory and you went, you thought about that note, and you thought about the thing, and you went, wait a minute.

Now I know where they both were at the same time. In my teeth, while the house was full of people. Yeah. That's, that's not how right. They were taking the garbage out. They were taking the garbage out. But, like, the, the memories that I do have, they're enough. And I'm thankful that they're enough.

You know what I'm saying? Because you're right. Like, there's things that I'm pretty sure I remembered more. when I was younger. Right. Right. And now it's sort of like all kind of goes together a little bit. Yeah.

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Sequin fight. We end in the sequence. You come home. Yes. And then Rebecca and Kevin join in on the sequence fight, although mom reluctantly does. She's like, what happens? In my house, it's a mess. Yeah. Then she goes and breaks another plate.

Yeah. There is, so if this works as a segue, in the present, there's this moment when Kev is sort of like resigned to like, you know, sort of let things go. But instead of letting things go, he just excuses himself and he goes to straighten up Mickey's trailer. Yeah, to clean up. To clean up, right? And he's seeing like, you know, water come through the ceiling and it's just sort of disarray.

and what's the word I'm looking? Detritus, is that how you pronounce that word? Sure. Is it detritus? No, it's detritus. Thank you. Just, you know, all about. And there's a moment, he's on the phone.

I think he's talking to Zoe. And then he turns and he looks and he's distracted. And I'm like, what is Kev distracted by? I think. The audience asks themselves, what is Kev distracted by? And we have this gem of information of seeing the seed of who Kev is at the core of him, even though he doesn't like to readily share it with people,

Young experience with Smiley. Kev is somebody who likes to take care of people. And I think maybe he keeps it to the low on the low because it doesn't seem cool. You know, maybe Randles the person. He's like, I'll take care of Kate. But like in terms of letting everybody know, I was like, I can keep that to myself a little bit.

So it turns out we wound up coming back to that moment of Kev in the trailer at the end as Rebecca and Kevin are going home. And she's talking about how proud She is of him. And I guess if you want to, Maddie, you can talk about this. The conversation that precedes it is the conversation that you have with Uncle Nicky about your son. Yes.

And I think she says, you know, well, she says initially she didn't want to meet him because it's sort of unraveling these memories that she realizes that it's been a very long time since she's been in a room with someone who has memories. of her husband that she doesn't. And she also talks about how Jack was newly sober when he passed away, and she just has a feeling that, like, maybe he would have made his way back to Nikki, that he would have found a way for them to be in each other's life again. And then speaking about Kevin, I think she also wants to defend her son

and talks about how he's always been harder to define. He's been trickier. He's also, newly sober like his dad was. And he just cares so deeply. He already cares so much for Nikki. Nikki is already so important to him. And Nikki talks about the fact that, like, that's great, but, like, he's not interested in being some prop for a movie star, I think he mentions.

Something like that. And Rebecca's eager just to know something about Jack. I think she asks sort of at the beginning of the conversation, like, what did I not know about him? Like, tell me, tell me a memory that you have of like your childhood or something. And finally, he relents and tells her that he really like to build things and talks about building the fence and the tongue and groove and that whole sort of thing, the treehouse, rather. And he says that he, you know, he was a writer and then he was a doctor and then he was sort of nothing, right? he says he used to be a person. Wrote that, though.

Yeah. I was like, whew, man, that gets me now just to think about. And then when he tells her over the course of this conversation that the family was all he ever wanted, I was like, wow, that really moved me. And you guys were all he ever wanted, he says. And I just, I wrote down like the kindness of that comment. Like, what a beautiful thing for her to hear. And then, you know, after this conversation, we see Nikki go to meet up with Kevin to help fix his place up together, the two of them. And he promises Kevin that he'll go to a meeting.

But having him in his life, like moving forward, being a family, like all of it's just too much. Yeah. It's too much for him. It's too painful. Right. And Kevin sort of understands. And then... Shook his hand.

Shook his hand. Yep. There's no husband. exchanged. Yeah. And then as Rebecca and Kevin are driving back home and Rebecca talks about just the monumental nature of what they've just experienced and really wants to sort of praise him for how proud she is of him and what he's sort of like brought together and how he's helped his uncle. And it's sort of like who knows where it goes from here, right? Essentially like you've done a good deed. We'll see where this road takes us, but she says she's really proud of him and

We flash back to Kevin eyeing that thing in Nicky's trailer that the audience was questioning before. What's he looking at? Well, it was a bottle of whiskey. Yeah. And I don't know if you guys felt this way, but I verbally out loud was like, no, no, no. I had completely forgotten about it. I had totally forgotten about it too. And I was like, no, he doesn't.

He doesn't. He looks at it. He contemplates it. There's no way. And when you see him pick it up and take that swig of the ball. bottle. I mean, heavy pulls that. God, and just drowns it.

Like, just finishes the rest of the bottle. And you're just like, damn it, Kevin. Yeah. Like, it's so frustrating to witness this, this sort of self-destructive behavior and knowing that, like, man, this guy just wants to be of service. He just wanted to help. And, like, this rejection from his uncle sends him back into a dark place. and is that is that it that's it yeah i say yeah yeah i wrote woof rebecca says she's proud of him

woof like oh yeah as we know there's something that came up with with with with nicky and me watching him relay the story to you and him allowing kevin to help him fix this leaky part of his ceiling yeah where there was a point where nicky goes these people are trying to help me i don't really want it but they also need my help like they need they need something from me and he gives it to you that story he lets kevin be of service and it's something that i've that i'm it's one of the the fatherhood lessons that i or parent lessons that i'm learning about letting people help yeah but what it means to somebody who wants to help yes on a very basic level between father and child, right?

I have a five-year-old. He wants to help with everything. Yeah. I can do it. Sure. But it makes him feel so good to help. Right. So finding something that he can't, a way he can help me.

Yeah. Something that he can help with is it makes him feel accomplished. It makes him feel included. Makes him feel confident. All of these things, right? that, I mean, everything I do with him is a metaphor for my grown-up life. Yeah. Like something I need to learn.

But it's interesting. Not just with kids, but with everyone in my life. With every human. But interesting to think for Nikki, like, when was the last time anyone needed anything from him? Right. How that must feel for him to acknowledge, like, wow. To be helpful. To be helpful.

To give someone something that they needed. They needed him for this. Yeah. We all want to feel. useful. Yeah. It is a part of the human condition. Yeah.

And it's a real gift you can give to someone if you can help them feel that way. Yeah. Yeah. That's the size. I guess the only last thing is that that'll set up 313 is Randall goes home. He kisses his girls. He calls them Angelica, Eliza and Peggy. Peggy.

And Faith. And he says, I'm Peggy? Like, yeah, I'm Peggy. Shout out. Peggy's actually related to William, Ron Sevis Jones, Jasmine Seifus Jones. It's a nice little, they all comes together. It's also symbionic. It all comes together. Immediately has to leave.

Beth has to leave. It turns out that her mom, like, hurt her hip. Don't know if it's broken or not. This is the second time this has happened in fairly recent memory. So she's got to take off. So Randall's home with the girl. Yeah, it's like two ships passing. Two ships passing.

She's leaving. You just got back. But then it's going to set up an episode with our cast. We haven't met Beth's mom yet, have we? We have not. This is. She's been talked about. It's epic. Another big character coming.

Dude, there's big things coming in the next episode. Before that, we have an excellent fan segment. We do. We do. On this episode. Let's take a break and we'll come back with that fan segment right after this. So for today's fan segment, we're going to be shining a light on a very special organization, Operation Delta Dog. In today's episode, we saw Nikki still struggling to find his footing as a veteran haunted by his past.

Kevin tries to help by getting him connected with a local facility, but as we saw, it's not always that simple. That is why we are so honored to be joined by Larry Myers, a representative and volunteer for Operation Delta Dog, an organization that rescues homeless dogs and trains them to become service dogs for military veterans living with PTSD. Let's bring them on right now. Mr. Myers. Hello. How are you? This is called a fan segment, and obviously we're here to talk about an organization that you work with. But I am also, I am a rather big.

fan of your appearances on the family trips podcast. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I record very carefully all of the insults every year. I hope so. When we get together once a year, when we go to Pittsburgh for a Steeler game, we have a session where we all sit together and rebut all of the vicious things that they've said about us. Good, good, good. For anyone who doesn't know, Larry is the father of Seth. Meyers and Josh Myers, who have the podcast family trips. And they are, they're brutal on you sometimes, sir. And I'm glad that you get your moment to rebut.

They are. I gave them a lot of material. It is hysterical, because as I see it, I was like, of course, you're Seth's dad. You guys look exactly alike. It's hysterical. But we're here to talk about this organization that you volunteer with called Operation Delta Dog. Can you tell us and our listeners a little bit about it?

I will, and I'm happy to do that. But before I talk about that, I just want to talk about PTSD, which was what this episode was about on the show, that how big of a problem it is today. And then I'll get into what Operation Delta Dog does. But if you look in the United States, the rate of suicides is about 14 per 100,000 people. If you look at the same population of veterans, it's five times that. It's over 36 per 100,000 people. So this problem with PTSD is fairly serious. And not only is it serious for people that are under 49 years old, about 35% of veterans suicides are people that are under 35 years old, which is the 49, I'm sorry, which is what I thought was going to be the issue, people from Afghanistan, Iraq, those were veterans. But two-thirds of the suicides are people over 49 years old.

So this problem spans generations, and it can linger for a very long time. So Operation Delta Dog up here in New Hampshire started a few years ago, and what they do is they rescue dogs from kill shelters in the south. And they bring those dogs up to New Hampshire. And then they pair them with veterans with PTSD. And it's an 18-month program in which the veteran is carefully paired with a dog so that it takes into account the veteran's living situation. Do they have a yard? Do they have kids? Do they have a family and apartment? And then there's a sort of a matching process where they have the capacity right now to have about 10 kenneled dogs

at the facility right now, where the veteran and the dog actually bond. Because it's the bond between the veteran and the dog that is what the therapeutic part of the service dog program is for vets with PTSD. And I should also add that some of the people in the program suffer from traumatic brain injuries and also military sexual assault.

soul. So we have, there's not only men in the program, but there are women in this program as well. And they, it's a twice a week, 18-month program. Initially, the dogs stay at the facility. Eventually, of course, they go home with the veterans. The veterans come to class twice a week. And they bond with these dogs. And the program has been tremendously successful. Over a hundred people have been through it. All of those people are still with us. We get about two calls a day from veterans that are interested in the program, and they definitely self-select, and very often these veterans have already tried, they've tried medication, they've tried counseling, and very often this could be the last time, the last chance that they have to get some relief. What's interesting about the program, I got involved just because I was invited to a fundraiser, because I know what PTSD was, but I didn't wake up everyday things. about it. Sure. You know, there's a lot of things. I, you know, we, I know, I know Seth is up here

a couple times a year. Not every couple years we, we raise money for, for child abuse programs in the state. And that's another thing you don't wake up every day thinking about. You know, it's there, but, you know, it's, it's something that you really don't want to look at. But when I was invited to this fundraiser and, and, and I saw these veterans that was in a crowded country club. There was about 14 veterans. They all had dogs. The dogs all had vests.

And then a gentleman got up to speak who was my age. He was in his 70s. And I couldn't, at the time, I couldn't understand how could somebody that's a Vietnam vet have suffered for 50 years with PTSD? And then they showed a photograph of his son who was killed on Afghanistan. It was a soldier. And this triggered everything and this gentleman. And then he realized that all of the anger and all the anxiety and everything that he had gone through for so many years that he suffered from PTSD as well. And then he reached out to the program because he's got a young dog a couple years old.

And he's able to live a much more normal life. And some of these folks that suffer with PTSD, they have a great deal of time connecting with people. they have difficulty being out in public. And something about the dogs and the veterans bonding together changes that. I'm not 100% sure why. Yeah. Do any of you have dogs? We all have dogs.

Yeah, we all have dogs. Okay. So you know how you feel about your dog. Yes. Right? So I have a theory. This is the Larry theory is that while you have other people in your life that love you, I have a wife. I have children. I have grandchildren. I have friends. And all those people might love me, but they don't love me all the time. Not 100% of the time. You've heard my kids podcast. So you can imagine that people don't love me 100% of the time. But my dog loves me all the time. No matter what, it's unconditional love. And I think part of the bond between a dog and a veteran, even a veteran who may have a family,

and children and friends, and that it's completely different. Because these dogs that we work with are rescued dogs, all of these dogs come from kill shelters. These dogs would be euthanized if we didn't bring them up here to New Hampshire. And I think there's something because the veteran, let's say a veteran who's in combat, he's watching his buddy's back, the buddy's watching his back. Because the veteran knows they saved the dog, they let the dog save them and and and and and and and part of the symptoms because when you look

in your episode the veteran that had PTSD it was obvious he lived in a trailer he he was only comfortable there he didn't like to be around other people he had no relationship with his family and there are veterans that are that isolated and physically he looked like he might be a guy with PTSD yeah but that's not the norm It is certainly one way that a PTSD veteran might present. Sure. But some of these people look hail and hearty and completely healthy. But the program works, I think, for a couple of reasons.

One, it reduces anxiety. A lot of these veterans will have night terrors. They're very anxious out in public. They don't like people being too close to them. They don't like to be approached from the rear. They don't like to go into a room. to go into a room that they haven't been in before. And the dog helps reduce all of that stress

and all of that anxiety. One veteran told me, and again, this guy looks like a full-blown warrior, that he gets night tears and his dog gets up and lays on his chest. And this is the thing that takes away the anxiety that allows him to go back to sleep. There's training for the dogs, or is this just just a human being and an animal bonding with one another?

No, it's a twice a week for 18-month program that they're training the dog and the veteran as a team. They're training them as a team. Yeah, so it's not like they take the dog away and they teach it certain behaviors or whatever. This is, when they match the dog with the veteran, it's a careful process. And sometime you'll see a dog come out and they'll be in a class. and the dog will be with a veteran. And sometimes you can just see the dog and the veteran bond. Visually, you can be, you don't have to know anything about PTSD or veterans or anything,

but you say, oh, look, these guys love one another. Yeah. You could, I don't know why, but it happens that way. And so, yeah, it's a, they train them not just at the facility, but they train them out in the community. They go to malls. They go to restaurants. They go to movie theaters.

They go everywhere that the veteran might have to go. that they can take it, that they would want to take their service dog. I can't tell you how many of these veterans have said that I couldn't go to a grocery store. Right. Now, the thing about PTSD as a person who doesn't have PTSD is you sympathize with it, but it's hard to empathize with you can't understand. What do you mean you couldn't go to a grocery store? What do you mean?

It's something that's hard to, because you, it's just hard to understand if you don't have it. And so what these dogs do is they allow people to get back out of the society to interact with other people. Plus the dog, even though he's wearing a vest and you're not supposed to pet the dog, the dog's an icebreaker, if you will. People, oh, look how cute your dog is. Isn't that nice? So forth and so on. It allows people to have a better interaction with the community as a whole. And there's also the trust because a lot of the problem is there's not a lot of trust.

whatever these people have gone through. And you, in this program, and I'm sure, and there are others, by the way. And this isn't the only program in the country. But there are other programs out there and where a veteran, you know, might be able to get help. But the fact is, in each case, each veteran situation is different. But the fact that the dog works, who cares why it works? Sure. Yeah, exactly.

It just works. Yeah. It just works. So for me, it's been very rewarding. I started out just going down and walking dogs. And then I decided to get on the board, and there's a, this is a small group of people. There's 13 people that work there. They're all women.

And they, there's four trainers. There's a veteran coordinator, an executive director, some kennel staff, a development person. because all of this is funded 100% by donations from companies and individuals in the community and grants. Wow. And this program is 100% free to the veterans under the theory that a veteran with PTSD, traumatic brain injury, or military sexual trauma, they've already given enough. Yeah. Yeah. There are other programs that can cost a veteran from anywhere from $20,000 to $50,000.

And there are other programs that are free. And these programs tend to be regional, maybe very local, and they're not available everywhere. And one would hope that the Veterans Administration would provide funding for this. And there is a piece of legislation called the POS Act, P-A-W-S, that was passed a few years ago with the goal of providing up to $20,000 or $25,000 to groups such as Operation Delta Dog to train animals for service dogs for veterans with PTSD. But it's only in a pilot stage right now and whether it's going to receive full funding or not in the current budget crisis and so forth and so I don't know. So up here we just press on and I spend a lot of my time.

trying to raise funds for the group so that the trainers and whatnot that deal with the veterans on a day-to-day basis can do their job. And it's very rewarding. And so I think there are, just to give you an idea, to bring a dog from the south up to New Hampshire cost $6,000. Wow. And that's for transportation, veterinary care that might be necessary, and sometimes there is veterinary care, getting certification by the state. Every one of those dogs doesn't make it as a service dog. Some of those dogs just aren't, they're just not going to, one thing they have to be is food motivated because they're all hand-fed. They don't get two bowls of food, one in the morning or one at night. The trainers have a pouch with food and the veteran does too. And every time the dog performs

some function that they're asked to do, they're fed by hand. They get the same amount of food they would get if you put it in a dish. They have to be food motivated as one thing. And they just have to want to do it. So the dogs that don't make it still cost $6,000. Right. But then they're adopted out. And overall, on average, in all of these programs around the country, it's about $30,000 to $35,000 to get a fully functioning service dog to a veteran. Wow. How many different places is Operation Delta Dog operating? This is one.

There's not one. It's very local in southern New Hampshire. Some of the veterans that are within, say, a 90-minute drive from the location, which is in a town called Hollis, New Hampshire. They're from northern Massachusetts. But the reason that we have that 90-minute limitation is because they have to come to classes. All the training, right, all the training. Twice a week, yeah.

And now in New Hampshire, a little bit further north, the state is building a what's called a veteran center. It's going to have equine therapy. Our group Operation Delta Dogs is going to provide the same services we provide in Hollis up in Franklin. They're going to have like exercise. facilities, some residential facilities. It's a big thing that the state's putting together. So eventually they'll have two locations. But this is a highly localized operation. And some have a wider geography they can service. But for the most part, they're pretty local. When you say dogs from the south, are they all across the south that you're pulling dogs from?

Are there particular kill shelters that you work with specifically? And how did a dog wind up there to begin with well the dogs wind up in a kill shelter for the same reason they don't wind up in a kill shelter anyway people abandon them or they they can't afford them uh you know they just don't want them anymore they're not sick oh they some are sick or they're not sick or no these dogs are not sick although there have been you know dogs come up and they have we have to remove buckshot from them okay example so so the the people that run the program have worked with some of the same shelters for for several years okay the shelters know what kind of dog they're looking for most of these dogs are black labs yeah not all of them

but most of them are black labs and uh they tend to be between say nine months and 18 months old young okay the trainers say we don't want them too smart we want we don't want the dog to train flexible we want to train them together but you know when i was down there just walking the dogs in the beginning i would have taken all of these dogs home oh i bet even when my kids were young i used there was a pet store near where we lived and there was a movie theater and we'd go to the movies they'd say well can we go look in a pet store oh no yeah yeah we're not going to look in a pet store yeah they see you coming yeah well they it doesn't matter who you are yeah if you got a kid with you you're walking out of there with something

Yeah, but, yeah, so they do, they don't, they tend to be from, from, they can be from Alabama, they, they could be from Georgia. They, I don't personally have much to do with that, but they do work with the same group, you know, year in and year out, because they, they do get a relationship with the people, because even though these are kill shelters, those people down there, they're not eager to kill these dogs. Of course. They would place every one of them if they could, but they have constraints of space and, and budget, and so. forth. So, um, so they, you know, again, about half of the dogs make it as, as service dogs. Yeah, the, the theme, the theme of this, these episodes, this one that we just watched and the one before about the size of this issue sometimes can seem insurmountable, right? The, the, the idea of PTSD. And it's organizations like this that address a, a, a, a, a, a,

a more localized a simpler issue which is just the issue of isolation you know and and to do something to approach something that you can solve instead of trying to cure PTSD which is is still a very difficult thing to it's such a big idea it seems hard to figure out which angle to approach it from but this seems like like a really simple approach that that that seems to be working There are other veterans organizations in our state, specifically, there's one associated with Easterseals called Veterans Count. And they deal with a wide range of issues. They deal with deployed veterans whose families need something while their veterans are deployed. They try to help the veterans when they come back get employment.

They deal with mental health issues. And this is a mental health issue, full stop. If there was a vaccine, we would give it to it, but there's not. And so, but to your very point, while that Veterans Con organization, which is a referral source for us, and we work closely with them, they are trying to deal with a more holistic approach to the veteran, and we're trying to help with one problem, with one solution, like you say, it's much more narrowly focused. And that's not to say that when a veteran, something in the veteran's life, it's 18 months. Things could change. Yeah, sure. Right?

Things could change. You could get divorced. You could fall in love and get married. Yeah. Recently, one of the veterans, who was a graduate of the program, decided to go back to college. He came back for training because he's going to have to sit in stadium seating. And they never had trained a dog to be able to go to a school and live in a dormitory. Right.

And so it's not, I mean, when we say we're narrowly phileneering. We're trying to solve for one problem, but sometimes you have to provide additional services as the specific situation requires. And at any given time, we're not dealing with, you know, two, 300 people. I think we have 16 people matched with dogs right now, 10 on the waiting list for dogs. And it cycles through. Our limitation right now is we only have so much kennel space. so we need to get some more space

and we've we're working we've just taken some space we're taking some other space we need more trainers obviously all that takes more funding and but so we can probably

you know go from say you know 50 60 people a year to 120 people a year if we can just expand the resources that we have to do it

it's not that the demand's not there sure And I'll just say one other point is that as a member of the board, what we think about, I think about this a lot. When a veteran calls, it used to be when this was a smaller program, somebody answers the phone and calls back, same day, next day. That's not the way with a lot of mental health programs. The number of mental health professionals is not adequate to handle mental health issues in society as a whole. But now, well, yes, we still call back. and we still get in touch with them,

we don't necessarily have a dog for them right away or a class for them right away. And so sometimes these veterans are having to wait weeks or even a couple months before we can actually start to provide service. So as a board member, my challenge is to try to help get the resources to narrow that gap. Yeah.

I mean, I don't ever want to think, or neither does anybody else, between the time somebody called us and the time we were ready to provide service, something terrible happened. Right. Right. So we want to narrow that gap. And, you know, we'll do the best we can to do that. Yeah. And so if we, and I think we actually probably would like to as a podcast, if we would like to donate to this organization or if the people listening would like to donate how and where can they do that.

There's a website called Operation, all one word, Operation Delta Dog, no S, just Operation Delta Dog.org. and you can go on the website and you can donate as much and as often as you like. Great. He's like, there's no cap? Great. No cap. No cap. No cap. I love organizations like this. Yeah, you know, and I'm looking forward

to the second season of Paradise, and so if that comes through, I'm going to lift the cap for you. I got you. Much obliged, sir. I appreciate that. I don't know. I don't know what the rest of you. you were doing, but, you know, I'll be paying attention. I'll be paying it. Now, Mandy, I just want to mention something to you.

Here we go. 2006. Okay. Your career has, from 2006, has skyrocketed. From American Dreams. Yeah. Yes. With your son.

And my son was in that movie with you. Oh, yeah. And his career in the movies has stayed exactly where I was. Since 2006. I have to be honest, working with Seth, though, that was the peak for me, professionally speaking. I mean, there might not be anyone funnier on the planet than Seth. So it's... I'm not going to argue with you.

Yeah, yeah. We can't argue that point. You wouldn't say the same, but you won't argue. I won't argue. He's a good guy. Are you wearing this Steelers jacket for us? No, he's a Steelers fan. I'm from Pittsburgh, and usually I only wear this on Game Day, but I always wear this on game day,

but I wore it just for you guys. Oh, well, we do appreciate it. Representing. I'm sweating pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Sure, sure, sure. I got it out of the, out of the drawer.

Oh. Well, thank you so much for telling us about this organization. So much. And thank you for the work that you've been doing with Operation Delta Dog. And thank you for letting everybody know a much wider audience, all of the incredible work that is being done and how we can learn more and also donate. And again, if you want to make a donation, you can go to Operator. Delta Dog.org.

That's it. And apparently there's no cap. You can donate as much as you want. As much as you want. And as often as you. And as often. As often as you want. Thank you very much, Mr. Meyer.

Hey, thank you guys for having me. It's very kind of you. I really appreciate your interest in this subject. And best of luck with the podcast. Thank you so much. Have a good one. Take care. An excellent fan segment.

Mr. Larry Myers, man. What a guy. What a gem of a human. What a great cause. Volunteering his time with this organization. Wow, that was so fascinating to learn all about. I hope all of our dear listeners out there are going to check out, check them out and donate and do all the things. Yeah.

If you have, if you're helping an organization that is related in some way to our show. Yeah. Shout. It's not just a emotional support hotline. And if there's any connection you have to our show or anything you want to talk to us about, you can hit us up at that was us pod at gmail.com or you can call our emotional support hotline at 412-501-3028. 3028. I'm committing that to memory. You would think after this many episodes, we'd. Give us a call, send us an email.

We'd love to hear from you. Yeah. We love you. We do. We're listening friends. I love you. I love you guys, too. I love you guys.

We'll see you on the next episode. Take care. Bye. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da da-da-da-dum. That was us.