That Was Us - Rebecca's Diagnosis | "Clouds" (415) with writers Kevin Falls & Jonny Gomez

Episode Date: January 6, 2026

Happy New Year and welcome back to the pod! We’re excited for 2026 and all the fun episodes coming your way! On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 4, Episode 15: Clouds. Kevin and Rebecca spend the day checking off experiences she’s always dreamed of, including a visit to Joni Mitchell’s old home, right before Rebecca receives her official diagnosis. Meanwhile, Randall is reluctant to open up in his therapy session, and Kate and Toby reconnect in their marriage. On the podcast, Mandy, Chris, and Sterling chat about how you present yourself to the world, wanting to be a good person, and so much more! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: Buy four cartons and get the fifth free, at https://davidprotein.com/thatwasus David has officially launched nationwide at Walmart. Humans aren’t perfect, but David is. This episode is sponsored by/brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://betterhelp.com/TWU and get on your way to being your best self. Try Zip Recruiter for free at https://ZipRecruiter.com/TWU. ZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:32 Discussion 01:12:53 Interview 01:42:31 Outro Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of That Was Us, we were diving into season four, episode 15, clouds. Kevin and Rebecca spend the day checking off experiences she's always dreamed of, including a visit to Joni Mitchell's old home, before Rebecca receives her official diagnosis. Meanwhile, Randall is reluctant to open up in his therapy session, and Kate and Toby reconnect in their marriage. What's going on, gang? Hi, friends. I'll be loving you forever.

It's being a little silly, having a little fun. Guys, there's things that I didn't remember about the episode. And then, like, when I watch it, I was like, oh, wow, this is when, like, Randall starts that therapy thing, right? I forgot about therapy. I forgot because we mentioned it at the end of the last episode that is why I thinks it would be a good idea for him to do it. And then I was watching it.

And I was like, oh, man, I forgot how it was shot, too. Like, stylistically, it was a really interesting choice. It builds kinetic energy, right? You're like, when you don't reveal who's talking to. And I was like, this is a new move for us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Very, very interesting. I mean, musically speaking, in the same. This is how you know. This is how you know. We've got one of the best shows on television. When you've got, it's the best show, there's not any better shows, new kids on the block, Joni Mitchell, Blind Melon, Crosby Stills, Nash, and Young, all in the same episode of, all in this episode? All in this episode? All in this episode? Yeah. Wow.

That must be a healthy sink budget. That's what I have to say. Yeah. I was like, that's a pretty penny. Yeah. Some of these songs. That's when we were riding high. Riding high. Mandy, tell us how we're going to do this one. How should we? Oh, golly gooops. Let's talk about the opening scene and figure out where we want to go from there. Okay. The flashback, right? Go for it. We've got an episode, opens on a flashback, Kate, Randall, Kevin, showing Jack and Rebecca their report cards.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Yep. And I do, this little emotional Russian roulette that Jack is playing with his children is fun. In one way? Tell me what you do. In the way he's conducting the... The, oh, he could be bluffing the kind of game he's playing with the grades.

Because they all have seen their report card. That's a confident face, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because they're looking at them as parents for the first time. Right, right, right, right. Do you remember a report card day? Yeah. Yeah. It was a big day.

It was a big day. I forgot how big a day it was until I re-watched this episode. If there were good grades, there was a Toys R Us run. I'm not mad at that. There was a promise of a Toys R Us run. run, which was, like, the most magical idea, the dream of, like, running through the aisles of Toys R Us, something most listeners, well, maybe some will remember. It's still around.

No, no, they're gone. No, they're gone. Wow. There's a Toys R Us in Toronto, Canada. There is. Okay, so it's gone in the U.S. I don't know if they're fully gone. This is what we thought about Bed Bath and Beyond, guys.

Remember I sent you that photo? Listen, I saw, there's like a Toys R Us, like, like, in. store at like shop and shop in a macy's near us but it's that is not right not the same thing no agreed agreed this is us yeah yeah yeah we we we would get a cash payout i get a cash payout for a is like how much like five or maybe 10 when i got a little bit older like middle school or something but it was if if i got straight at well i told you the one story about straight is but there was usually five to ten dollars per a and i usually i was a very good student i did very well And so it was a good day for Brown.

It was always a good day for Brown. I don't remember any kind of rewards. I think, but I was definitely stressed about it. I was a good student. I got good grades. But man, if there was a C plus in there. Oh, yeah. You know what?

I'll say that. My mom, like, and to her credit, I got it. Because now that I have these kids, I was like, okay, what's this about? So every once in a while they'd be like a B, right? And she's like, all right, so what's that about? I was like, what are you talking about? Like, I'm doing better than everybody. And she's like, yeah, man, but I know what you're capable of.

And I just want to hold you to what you're capable of. So what's going on? And I was like, fair enough, because that's pretty much how I am right now. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I remember when I got to college when it was really like, all right, I'm in college now. You want to have good grades, but also you're going to have a degree in theater arts when you're done. So it's not like anyone's checking the GPA.

But I still had that pressure right. And I remember I had this stoner buddy. who was like whooping my ass in grades. Like he had a 4.2 GPA, but stoned all the time. And I'm got my like 3.7, 3.8, whatever. It's still good, don't get me wrong. But I remember, I remember saying to my boss,

I worked in admissions all through college. I worked as like a tour guide on campus, stuff like that. I remember talking to her about it and she, and her being like, yeah, but how hard do you try? And I was like, oh shit. You're like, fair point. Let's talk about something else. Got it.

He's like, he probably puts in a lot more effort than you. Yes, probably a good point. Anyways, what's a part of the episode do we want to talk about? Well, here's this. Have I asked you this question, man, anymore? How did you sort of approach your own education outside of the traditional system? Like, what's your sort of like your way? Because you're a smart woman.

You're very well-versed in many things. Is it something that you just sort of took on for yourself or did, like, people say, like, you should do this? If you're not going to go to school, da-da, like, how do you go about it? Well, I finished and got my GED, like, with extended studies, you know, like homeschooling. I started out having, like, a set teacher. And then I was like, I got it, like, on my own. Okay. My own pace.

Like, it was just much easier that way. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I always thought I would go to school beyond. Yeah. But work just sort of, like, took over. and it just like became like a further memory. I got further and further away from it.

But I do wish that I had gone to school. But you're not somebody who... It's never too late. It's never too late. That's true. But I mean, the experience, I think, is what I wanted more. Also, the education. Yeah, yeah.

What if Mandy Moore right now moves into the dorms at UCLA, joins a sorority? And I leave my family. Reality show. That would be amazing. You could bring them. Sometimes. Bring them to the, bring up to the, frat house parties. Yeah. I will say, to your point, the thing that I remember about those four

years of college specifically is not necessarily the grades. It's the friends and the experience. Yeah. Like that's the social aspect of school and being an adult and like being in the real world. Totally. But you seem to be just fine. I'm just curious. How about this? When they go to college, you go with them. Oh my gosh. That sounds fun. Now it does. They'll love it until they turn 14. Yeah. And they don't want to have anything to do with me. Yeah. Just wait for it. Can be a real Rodney Dangerfield, back-to-school moment. I love that. It's a good movie.

That's Downey Jr.? Yeah. Thank you. So should we follow the flashback? Go ahead. With them. So Kevin, Kevin has gotten a reward, right, for getting A's. He gets something.

He gets a baseball guy or is a money? He gets $10. $5 per A. That's right. And he got two A's. And P.E. And Art. And they count.

He's like an A's an A's an A. He doesn't care. He wants that cash money. Yep. And he wants you to take him to the baseball card store. Yeah. You've got to run some errands. He's like, fine.

I'll go with you. We can swing by the baseball card store because he needs one baseball card. Yeah. A specific John Candelaria. Right. Candelaria? Candlearia. Who knows?

John Candlearia to complete his 19, I think, 80, 91, 91 set looks like a tops to me. You sound like a baseball card. We were baseball card collectors. I understand. Yeah, yeah. Can we get to that baseball card store? Is Topps the best versus... It's Topps and there's another main...

There's Fleer. Fleer. There's Topps. There's one other one that I'm blanking on... Big Three. Yeah, Big Three. The Big Three baseball card companies. Yeah.

But yeah, it was a big thing in the early 80s to start collecting baseball cards. And my dad put us through or got us all started on our own little collections. Are you a base... I never knew. Are you a baseball fan? I like going to live baseball games. But like you don't need to follow them otherwise. I don't follow any sports.

Even, even tennis. Even tennis. And tell them why I asked that because I was a very highly competitive tennis player up until about the age 19. And I stopped playing. So wait a word, this is an interesting thing. Yeah. Before we get, so the non-sports thing being the level of,

tell me about the swimming. Athlete. Tell them about the swimming. you came to my swimming pool and I said hey man you swim like a little fish I held a couple of state records as like a 12, 13 year old for a while

so I have to bring it up in order for people to understand like the level of athleticism and so I'm curious is your sort of eschewing of pro sports just like a remnant of burnout from being pushed a little bit

oh interesting a little bit tennis is a is an odd pursuit. An individual sport for a young person is a huge mental strain. Yeah. Like the people who make it beyond, you know, youth sports in an individual sport have a certain mental capacity that is, that is beyond my comprehension. Yeah. And obviously, physical skill. But you're talking about specifically individual sports, because you don't have anybody else to lean on. Yeah. So Whether it's golf, tennis, whatever, it's all.

Yeah, yeah. And it's, and it's, it can be isolating. You know, these, some of these matches go three, four, five hours, depending on how long you're playing. But yeah, anyways, I, yeah, I don't know why I never followed. I mean, I was a fan growing up of sports teams. Yeah. But I never, I never got into, like, the details and the stories and the stats and all that stuff.

But I collect the baseball cards. Okay. Or the football cards. Do you still have your cards from when you were, kid. I do not. They went sold. Oh, you sold them all? Yeah, sold them all. They weren't, I didn't have anything. Okay. Crazy. My dad has the crazy ones. And he's kept them. Yes. We still have those in a safety deposit box. Cool. We've got like old, like Willie May's rookie card. What? He, so my dad,

my dad, while we were collecting, going to the baseball card, getting our packs, like Rebecca and and Kevin are ripping packs, chewing gum. Yep. Uh, my dad, was investing you know in in the cards mickey mannels willie mays my dad then amassed so many cards that my mom was like you can get on these baseball cards out of my house that minute and yeah boxes yeah boxes yeah yeah and so he had them in the trunk of his car as he was moving them to his office but he had left him in there for a couple of weeks and one day was doing around a golf and willie maize was in the foursum ahead of him and he ran out to the car he got willie maize to sign he got willy maize to sign my his rookie card he had two rookie cards and he got had him sign one and left one

as is and so we have he has those in a in a safety department yeah oh god yeah yeah oh that's big yeah i know i know i even i know that's big so this whole this whole like report card baseball like it was just this episode was like bringing back all the all the feelings yeah for sure dude okay just had to just touch on that real quick and we should touch on the fact that that that randall gets an a minus in geometry and it's really rattled him yeah yeah not happy so i'm gonna talk about and her boyfriend steward broke up so she's upset like there's a lot the dude from the pool yeah yeah yeah he still he was still in the picture he broke up with her and she's very sad about it At that age, who even knows what that relationship looked like?

Yeah, very innocent, I'm sure, in Sweden. A couple little hellos by the lockers. Yeah, maybe a quick little peck on the lips, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so like stick into it, if we stick with the past, right? Yeah. I think the next thing that I have mentioned is Kate dealing with her heartbreak. And I think there's a conversation with mom, and they agree to make the three cheese macaroni?

Yeah, I think it's sort of more of a tossed off thing. Like, what's going to make you? Like, I'm going to the store. What can I get you? What do you want for dinner? And she says three cheese macaroni. Yeah, but it's tossed off. But, like, it hit me in a different way, too, in terms of our relationship to food and disappointment.

And comfort. Comfort, you know what I'm saying? Like, that sort of thing was an interesting sort of moment. But also the way Randall gets attended to, the way Kate gets attended to, and the way Kevin has to, like, Like, jump up and now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll do all the errands with you if I can go to a baseball card store. Yeah, there was another little moment of him having to negotiate his.

Then they go through all of the errands are at the grocery store. And he tells her that she's not as much fun as Sophie's mom. She's like, what? It's so easy. I was like, you're so easily manipulated, Rebecca. And she's like, I am fun. He's like, well. Show me.

Show me. And she's like, all right, fine. We'll go to the baseball carton store. Now's the time. Do you day drink shartagnette? Yeah. Sophie's mom does. Sophie's mom?

It is, you may mention, because they go to get the cards or whatnot and they start opening them up. This is really sweet too, because like you decided like, I'm going to show you how much fun I am, chewing the gum, he's chewing the gum, you're like, this gum tastes like ass, he's like you can only chew it for a minute and lose his flavor. So she's like, alright, let me pop in another one, right? And like at the end of the whole montage, like, he finds the card. she finds it she finds a car how did this wait tell me how that happened real quick they go

they he he buys a whole box of cards which comes to like 14 or 15 packs yeah he's going through and you know you're you're you're going through the cards and he goes through like 10 packs before and nothing nothing yeah and then rebecca says let me try one yeah like blow on it for good luck yeah she opens it up and she's opening one she's chewing on it and it's actually the reveal saved until the end of the episode. Correct. Because, well, we can jump ahead. Because at the end of the episode, we find Kevin, you know,

trying to kind of console himself. And he ends up as a grown man in this baseball card shop. And he's looking for this John Candle area card that he needs to complete the set. Yeah. Right. Because did he complete it? Will he complete it? Will they find it?

Who knows? And you find out the card is $2. Was it $2,000? Was it $2,000? No, no, no, it's $2. Okay, I'm sorry. But it's the thing. It's like that's the thing about like completing a set or whatever.

The things that mean something to us, you know, that were so important for us at a time in our life that you look back on and you're like, and now it's $2. $2. But it also has, it wasn't like that age, it was the card because of his connection to the player. Now it's the card because of this connection to his mom. Right. And you think, oh, he's here as a grown man because he never got to complete the set. Yeah. And he was going to buy it for himself and complete that set. Yeah. But we come and we find out that, no, in Rebecca's lucky pack, she posed the John Candelaria. Yeah. It's sweet. I liked that. It was. It was a really fun moment between you two.

It's also good. Like, I love the layering in because in earlier seasons, you think that like, Oh, like this story that Kev tells sometimes about, like, how he does get sort of neglected, but like there was a relationship. Because remember in the therapy session, she was like, you know, I like to think that we have our own things. Like, I like to think that we didn't just, you know, that I missed it. And, you know, you see him, it's harder getting on the floor with her in the cabin to sleep next to him. Like, yeah, there's a connection there as well, right? And it's just nice we get a little bit more light on it as time goes on, right? Especially in this episode.

But we need to actively contemplate those things because our negativity bias can attach to the negative stories in such a way that that stuff gets forgotten. We remember the negative much more than the positive. It gets overshadowed. And even now, I'm sitting here, like, trying to think about, like, the good things, my good memories around tennis or my good, like, I'm trying to process past the traumas around those things. to figure out like, did my parents have doubt? What do I have from them in this experience category that's like, that are these little moments of joy and freedom that are unencumbered, you know,

by the other troubles of growing up, you know what I mean? Yeah. It takes work. It takes actual, like, intention. Yes. Intentional thought. I hear you. To break through that stuff sometimes.

We'll be right back. with more that was us. Gang, can we talk about David Protein for just a second? I've been reaching for these a lot lately, especially now after the holidays, getting back

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Get your own. David is offering our listeners a special deal. You'll buy four cartons and get the fifth free when you go to Davidprotein.com slash that was us. That's Davidprotein.com slash that was us. And if you would rather shop in person, David has officially launched nationwide at Walmart. Just check out the store locator on their website and find the one closest to you. Whenever we talk about the Pearson Cabin, we always end up talking about how full that house felt. So many memories, all the kids and the growing families.

All the feelings, I have to say, any time we ended up at the cabin, something super special happened. I mean, it meant we were all together, obviously, as a cast filming, but just like what that cabin represented for that family and how it was sort of passed on. Totally. It was a time capsule in and of itself. Like, there's the VHS things that we had there and just seeing the VCR, like it, the board games, like you could sense the history. Yeah. And the cabin itself, the exterior of it, was magical. It was.

Drive up into the mountains, then down into that little holler. Totally, man. Yeah. A little gully, gulch. It was the best. And if a place like that existed in real life, it would be the perfect home to host on Airbnb while you're away. And now, with the co-host network, you can actually hire a vetted local co-host to help you take care of your home and guests

while you're off making memories somewhere else. It's so practical. If you're traveling for a vacation, work stuff, kids' activities, your home is probably just sitting there empty. A co-host can help manage reservations, message guests, and provide support on the ground so everything runs smoothly. Guys, what if Kevin tried to host a home without help? How do you think that would go? Boy, that have been kooky. You know, Kev, why don't you get yourself a co-host, bro?

Quit trying to do it all yourself. Although I would say Kevin's home is probably... Diled in. He's got a designed, well, that is the home I would want to stay up. And as parents, we know that when we travel booking a stay on Airbnb can make things easier. Space for the whole family, real rooms and bathrooms, and that full-size fridge for snacks and leftovers. Yes. If hosting feels like a good fit, but you're not ready to manage it all yourself? Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host.

Should we talk about Jack insisting that Randall, Randall's super anxious and he wants to find a way to help him blow off some steam? Yeah. We see him later in the episode, like, he's trying to run with Randall, right? That's right. Character trade unlocked. Yeah, I was like, oh, this is so interesting. This is where Randall's like, one of the ways he copes.

with anxiety is running later in life. And it's like, oh, this is where it originated. Totally. Got it. It's also like his, he wasn't like, I don't feel like doing this stuff. He's like, well, if you don't think you can beat your old man, that's one thing. He's like, hey. Yo.

That's all you have to do. If you have a little boy. Now, wait a minute. An opportunity to beat your dad. Yeah. It's like, all right, old man, you ready for this? Yeah. Like my kids right now, like it's like our sort of favorite sort of sassing of each other.

I was like, you know what? One day, Amari, I think you'll probably. be as good at me in basketball. Like, it hasn't come yet, but, like, you have real potential. And he's like, I'm better than you right now. I was like, if you say so, bud, like, if you say so. And he's like, no, what do you mean if you say so? I was like, you're allowed to think what you need to think in order to that, right?

But it is purposefully to inspire just like, we mess with each other. Yeah, we mess with each other. It's good. It's fun. And so he, like, dad gives him a head start. And that's exactly what I do. I was like, oh, man, I'll give you a head start. Yeah.

And then I'm going to catch you and be. you. And he's like, you can try. I was like, I count to five or ten or whatever the number is. And then we both were running. Brown probably wound up adding to like his Achilles, like, why am I running after these kids like that? But it's fun. Yeah, you see Niles running. You see, yeah, it's sweet. So much fun to play with your children. Yeah. That's that. So you see how that gets unlocked, right? What else is there in this past? Jack talking to Kate. What does Jack say to Kate? She's sulking on the couch at home. home. Yeah. And he kind of makes this analogy with a waffle. He's like, you know, I make

waffles on, I don't know, Saturday morning, Sunday morning or whatever. And like the first couple waffles are not that good, but you've got to just get through them in order to like get the good batch. He's like, that's kind of like what boyfriends are. The first few are not going to be that great. But you got to just like it's kind of part of the process to get through them in order to get to. Yeah, that's right. Guys, and I don't think it's by happenstance. And we make it seem like it is, but we're talking about three cheese macaroni. waffles. I'm just putting it out there. Like food. Yeah. As a comfort. And food is the connection with Kate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, okay. All good. All good.

Yep. Isn't that the weird thing about, really, somebody told me this a long time ago, they go, the weird thing about relationships is that all of them will fail until one doesn't. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I guess. Yeah. Like, that's not, that ratio sucks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like so much failure. It was, I can remember having a conversation with my eldest, you know, as he's entering high school and thinking more about dating, et cetera. And I remember saying to him, I was like, man, you got to get out there, have some experience. Like, see what's out there.

He's like, I don't feel like that. I just want to find the person I want to be with. I was like, that's sweet. That's legitimately sweet. And I appreciate what you're coming from. I say, it's usually not going to be the first person. And the way that you learn what you like and what you don't like is by just giving yourself the opportunity to have some life experience.

Unless you're intentional about it Which I've never met a young person Who's that intentional about it Yeah I mean Randall? It worked out from random You know, but that's what I'm saying Like to have that kind of even thought Yeah

Enter your brain I don't want to, I just want to find a person Yeah Maybe you will, who knows It's true I have a buddy like that too Who his wife is the only person They've been with

I would ask him was like hey man Do you want try and date He's like no I'm waiting for what I want And like they didn't meet till After college She was 23 or 24, and she was 20. And they've been together this whole time. Wow.

Yeah. God bless. Intentionality. I did a little bit more experimentation than that. A little bit. You know what I'm saying? A little bit. Wait a little bit.

Man, even more than what I'm talking. You got to do a little bit. So Randall and Beth? Yeah. Let's do that. They are Mom's getting the results of her MRI today Randall's sort of a bit anxious

because he wishes that he could be there but he's agreed to meet with the therapist that his wife sort of set up for him and she's really like hoping that this will be a good experience for him, et cetera, you know? And Kevin Kevin is going to go off on a day, right? Mm-hmm. With mom.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And he wants an iPhone. And he wants on our phone. That's what happened. So then if we go into this, Randall going to therapy. Yeah.

And there's, he's in the waiting room. And he's sort of just, you know, taking everything in. He's looking at the water dispenser. And it doesn't seem like there's any paper cups for the water dispenser. Magazines. Magazine. Like old, what have you. And he's just sort of, you can feel he's just a little out of.

sorts. And he's judging already. He's like, okay, this is what therapy is all about? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. So then we were talking about how this was shot, and intentionally, we never show the therapist. Yeah, who he's talking to.

Everything is very focused on Randall. It's almost like it's a, it's a confinement to a certain extent. Like if the frame was to help tell the story is like Randall almost feels like he's in confinement trying to do everything that he can

to be comfortable or whatnot. He mentions that my mom has a gets the results of an MRI today, but I'm going to turn that off so that I can pay attention. It's looking at like the clown picture over here. And then every once in a while, like this coffee machine is makes a noise. And he turns. Every time the coffee machine makes a noise. Right? A little drip on the hot pad. Yeah. At one point you can see like he makes a look and he looks at the the therapist like... You're going to do anything about that?

You're going to do something about this thing? And it's like, nope, doesn't look like it, right? So she's asking him why he's there, right? I want to... You guys have to help me because I can't remember... I mean, it's a first time we've done anything like this on the show, where we've... We have a character in the room who is essentially anonymous. Right. Yes.

Very first time. And she's very present, obviously, because she's in conversation. with you. But even the way it's shot, a lot of it is shot dirty over the shoulder. Yeah. So she's always kind of in the, she's hovering in the edge of the frame. Right. And Randall is the focus of the conversation. Yes. So the camera stays on Randall. Yeah. And he kind of tries to just control the situation. Like someone who's never been in therapy before, like I guess I'm just supposed to talk about my life and what I'm here for. And I have anxiety, obviously. And I have these sort of episodes like happen once a decade that like sometimes I need to be hospitalized for and his

wife is just worried about history repeating itself once again. And this is when the therapist, he starts to tell her like, you know, I, here's my story. I was actually like abandoned at a firehouse when I was a baby and she's like, let me just stop you. I know who you are. I know your story. I heard that on the campaign trail and that throws Randall off. Like, oh, I didn't know that was going to be a part of this. I didn't know that was allowed. Like, you knew who I was before. I mean, he doesn't say as much, but you could tell that's sort of the look on his face.

He refers to himself as an open book, like, ask me anything. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm here to share. Like, I understand what's going on? Like, what do you need to know, right? I'm good at everything I do. Good at everything I do.

By the way, this is kind of funny to me because I remember one time I was talking to my therapist or Ryan and I were in couples therapy. And I was talking to this therapist and I was talking about being on set and Ryan and I had a little bit confusion. I was like, have you ever watched, have you ever watched This Is Us? And she goes, I have. Right, but like, it's like she didn't want her to go. She had to answer you.

Right, because I asked the question. I was like, have you ever watched the show? And she's like, I have, but I'm totally objective. You know what I'm saying? Like, I enjoy it as a fan or whatnot. but like it was funny i was like all right cool i just had yeah but to be a public facing person yeah i mean if you're if you're a person who in randall's situation is a politician yeah who has interviews that are online or on television yeah there's just there's other assumed or

or acknowledged information that she has about you correct that maybe she wouldn't normally of a patient as a regular therapist yeah with a regular patient i only go to the therapists who are fans yeah in fact you ask so much beforehand right yeah how many of my no i go through instagram followers and see who are who the therapists are do like does she follow me can i get some pro bono work nope not interested not interested he says he says after uh this coffee pot situation he goes like i'm fortunate to have been shaped by two incredible fathers the one i lost and the one I gained. And that's why it's in my speeches, right?

And then he gets frustrated that the therapist didn't tell him right off the bat that she knew who he was. Like, why would you just hold that information, right? And to what you were saying, Chris, like the idea, I'm in control of this situation. It's almost sort of like the Czechovian sort of underbelly of what's going on here. And that just really tossed him. Yeah.

The therapist asked Randall why he's avoiding talking about his mother. And he insists that they have a great relationship and keeps trying to steer the conversation in a very different direction, right? He's like, no, me and my mom, that's totally fine. Like, there's nothing but love between R&R. and R. A little Rebecca and Randall time is 100% great. But it is the first thing that he said when he walked into the room. Yeah.

He said, like, you know, my mom's having this MRI thing today. But like, and it's interesting because it took me a second to even catch it that like something that he dismissed and I catch my therapist will do this to me too. She's like, you know, you started this thing by saying this and then you went into all these other things. But what about this thing that you said first? And it's a very interesting thing. I try to pay attention to myself now. Yeah. Right?

I'm like, okay. What's the top line? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, what is the thing that I'm upset about? Yeah. You know? And it's an interesting. sort of thing that I don't think we've explored a little bit with regards to Rebecca,

like in season one, Thanksgiving, right? She having information about his birth father that he didn't know, but then it seems as if it got resolved at the end of season one, right? But did it? But did it? Like, what is that resolution? It wasn't. It was really just resignation in a way of Randall being.

like, it is what it is, the acceptance of like, this happened. Yeah. You knew, but I love my mom, and we move forward and I forgive her. Yeah. But that was it. It was so sort of glossed over. I knew, I was like, there's no way this doesn't come back around. Really?

Yeah. Okay. I did. I was just like, this is too, like, tied up with a bow for real life and for our show. So I didn't quite expect it to come back in this way, but I love it. It's very true to life. So Randall tells the therapist about his relationship with Rebecca, frustrated that she keeps poking at the subject. And he goes on to say, if you think I'm having some sort of revelation right now, I'm not.

I know my faults. I know what triggers me, but I think my faults are good faults. And I'd rather have them than not have them, right? Real quick, this is interesting because I, you guys have heard me talk about my brother is very Randallesque, and I'm sort of Kevin-esque in my family. I remember when this episode comes out, and he called me, and he's like, I can't wait to see how this one plays out. I said, really? He's like, yeah, yeah. Right? Because he has said almost verbatim, if I don't do it, who will? Right. Yeah. Right?

And that's what Randall is going through. I think he, does he say it at? Yeah. This family will fall apart without. This whole family would have fallen apart or would fall apart. Yeah. That's a, that is. And on his way out, he turns off the coffee pot.

He does. He's like, all you have to do. It's not that hard. It's not that hard. He was pissed. Like, it was funny. Like, I say he, because I'm watching him. And I know I did it.

But I'm like, damn, bro. Something was activated in him. Something was activated, right? He did not enjoy that experience. That level of vulnerability, like somebody trying to tell him what is really going on with him and him not articulating it for himself. Did not step up. No. Yeah.

No. I mean, this is, this is the experience that I think the people who watch our show have watching our show. where it's like the show presents them with something, and they have an emotional response to it, and they say, this show is too sad, or this show is whatever. And it's like, no, no, the show is not anything. Sure.

Your life. Yeah, yeah. Your experiences. You're connecting with it in a certain way. It's the same thing with this therapist. Right. The therapist is not anything. No.

The magazines aren't anything. I mean, as representative by the fact that we don't show her. You know what I'm saying? The Cups, with the Wa is not anything. Right. It's a thing. Yeah. That is.

We are going to be talking to Johnny and Kevin, the writers of this episode later, and I'm curious to see, like, how this idea originated in the writer's room. Because it's very intentional, not showing who this person is. We don't find out who they are until the next episode. No, at the end of this one. At the end of this one. Oh, it is? He comes back into.

Hold on. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry, sorry, sorry. You're right. It's all good. It's all good. I thought the same thing. They blend together.

when we watch this many when we watch this many back to back. Randall goes home. He talks to the back and he sits on the couch. It was a great scene because she's just chilling.

I don't just doing something on the car. And he sits down and he goes, I don't think it's going to work out for me. Like, you know, I tried and it just didn't seem like it's the right fit and maybe he comes up with a reason for why he can't go or what have you.

And she's like, So sweet, it's just like, I knew you would come up with a reason not to like it. Yeah. Right. That's what happens to a lot of people in therapy. Yeah. That first time, they're challenged too much and it's like, nah. Therapy just in general.

It's not for me. It's not for me. It's like, well, maybe you're not with the right therapist. Right. And then what does Beth say? Like, she, she talks about the iPhone, but she talks about she goes, she shows him the contents of her purse. Because earlier in the episode, he was going to go in her purse to find something.

And she was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's my purse. Give it to me. I'll get what you need. Exactly. And so we find out that she's carrying, is it mace? Yeah. She's carrying some mace because she says sometimes at night I have to lock up the studio or whatnot. And that didn't use to bother me. But now it does a little bit. You know, talking about the violation of their home. Yeah. And this intruder comes in and took their, was in their bedroom, they find out. And so it hasn't just affected you, my dear sweet husband, like it has affected me as well. And I, the phone isn't really because anyone's like, I need to be able to get in contact with her because I'm concerned and want to make sure that I can reach out, right? Like, you're not the only person that has fear of not being able to connect. But I don't share my fear with you because I think me sharing my fear would send you over the edge. Yeah.

So if you think this is for you, Big Dog, it's for me. It's for me. It's for us. Like, I need to know that you're okay so that I can share myself with you as fully as possible. Yeah. And that is probably the only thing that would have made him go back. Yeah. Yeah.

The only thing. Yeah. What a good woman. Well, you know, I got people tell me, and this is, whether this is Jack and Rebecca or whatnot, but, like, people who come up to me and talk about Randall and Beth, they'll say, That's one of the best marriages like I've seen. Of course. And when I watched that scene, I was like, I see what you mean.

That's, that woman held, she's like, listen, I'm going to be honest with you in such a way that, like, if you don't do this, man, like, now the windfall is landing on me in such a way that I don't know what to do. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's marriage goals for sure. That woman good. She was good. And so he goes back.

He says something to the therapist, too, sort of. What does he say? I can't remember, but he goes back to the therapist, and we see for the first time that it's Pamela Adeline. And at some point in the future, we will be talking to Pamela. Yes. She... Add her to the list of television royalty who've joined our show.

And you also mentioned something, too, then we'll mention when she's here, too, which was what? Crush? Oh, wow. Come on. You're naked with your clothes on all the time. Right. Don't make me blush in front of Pamela Adla.

I have a massive crush on Pamela Adla. I know. I know you do, but you have a crush on everybody. She's absolutely wonderful. Are we all going to kiss Pamela Adlon on the mouth? I hope so. She's not coming in person. Is that what she is?

Oh, I am going to kiss her. This is what brings... This is what brings the family together finally. It's Pamela Adlai. All of us are like... Oh my God. clip this and send it to Pamela. Working with her over the course of these episodes was an absolute joy.

She's just... She's extraordinary. She is. Yeah. Extraordinary. I guess you'll see, too, when you work with it, she's a person that sort of has joke Tourette's. Like, similar to to solve from time to time when he's in the zone. He just like can't help it.

She can't help it. She's awesome. Wow. Okay, well, I can't wait. I can't wait. She's absolutely wonderful. And was so josell up. generous and kind through this, through this whole thing.

And I'm, like, it was, like, that, this episode in particular, like, that level, what I, what I learned, like, energetically, because there's, there's, there's very, you know, sometimes you can trick your body into believing, and that's what we're ultimately trying to do. It takes a lot of energy to keep people like this. Like, whether you're cognizant of it or not. Like, what I felt as an actor was like, Oh, this is, this, there's a level of exhaustion that is being activated within me right now in order to make sure that this person doesn't get too close.

And if you guys know anybody that you think actually keeps people at arm's length, they're exhausted. Remember that about them? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, I know. I have a buddy who is like that 24-7. Yeah.

And when it came to therapy, asked him about it, asked him about, yeah, I went three or four times. I said everything I needed to say. Okay, doke. I had a friend of mine tell me this. And this landed on me in a very particular way because I think we, in this business, sort of our job is to sort of unearth and sort of investigate and try to figure out what makes us tick, what makes people tick, and try to illuminate that as clearly and as honestly as possible. I remember I had a friend of mine tell me, she's like, why would I go to therapy?

She's like, that stuff was in the past. I don't want to dig that crap up and have to deal with it right now I'm good I think a lot of people feel that way feel that way I think there are some people

who can do that in a healthy way I think that's part of why our brains work the way they work is that you know what if you can't deal with this and need to deal with other things

right now to survive then and you can make that work go for it I don't know I don't know if it's, I mean, I can't speak to anybody's experience, but I certainly understand people being like, yeah, no more this is us for me right now. I got to, I got to work on, I got to work on raising these kids. For sure. You know what I mean? Or whatever the thing is.

Absolutely. Absolutely. But it's, it's, I was recently talking, I had this weekly meeting with this group of artists that we were talking about the shadow. We were talking about looking at the and someone brought up young talking about the there's a quote I won't get it right about the we have to acknowledge the shadow that lives in all of us or else we will be ruled by it and it's and I was like what that's interesting so if I'm doing this type of work blah blah looking at these things looking at the dark side of whatever and then I was like isn't that what all art is isn't that what every artist is doing. Yeah.

Like, even if it's funny, even if it's joyful, aren't we looking at the dark side of something, like... And making light of it. Making light of it. And exploring it that way. Or an actor taking, taking, I mean, there, let's face it, there is no, there is no acting project that doesn't have tension. No.

That's the whole point, right? Of drama, yes. You have to have some sort of, yeah. Even of comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything has tension and stakes, right? And so we're all exploring that in a way to present to an audience to explore the dark, the shadow, the darkness of something. Yeah, right?

And it's the same thing with a painting that we go look at or a song that we sing or doesn't matter if it's a happy song or a sad song. It evokes, by evoking the light, it also invokes the shadow. And we have to look at it. Yeah. It has to be acknowledged or we will be ruled by it. And that's essentially what therapy is is a chance to sit down with a professional who can help you look at it safely. I had a teacher say that like, you know, when people would talk about what they were comfortable doing

and not doing in performance, what have you, and they say like, you know, I want to try to bring positivity and things and they're like, that's cool and it's great. It's like, but your understanding of how. you're presenting yourself also means that you understand the opposite, right? That's right. And that that is also a part of you. That's right. You know, and it's interesting because I can remember my own journey in this profession was always like, you know, to be a good person. I don't think within the profession, but like as a man wanted to be a good man, to be a good person. And the teachers say like, yeah, but you're also just a person. And like one of the

the things that you'll have to learn as an actor, if you want to have an interesting career, I think he used those words, is that not everybody you play is a good person. And that those things are part of you just as much as the things that you wish to present to the world, right? And it's an interesting thought exercise to do every once in a while. I was like, oh, I'm capable of lots of things. And that nobody is just a good person. Right. And that's why this the show, the devil in disguise, right, this John Wayne Gacy show. This is how it started. It was like, why do we do this like true crime horror movies? Like, why do we look at these people? Why do we want to know about these people who are the darkest of the dark of the dark?

Because we want to know where that lives. Yeah. If it can live in that person, it can live in any of us. Yeah. Where does it live in me? Sure. Does it exist? Yeah. It must exist in some small way. Right. Or else I wouldn't be interested in this story. Yeah. Yeah. So this whole storyline with the therapy and with Randall having to take a look at this stuff is valuable. It is good. I know like in a couple, I think it's in a couple episodes because it's not the next one. But it's one of my favorite Randall episodes and one of Ryan's least favorite Randall episodes. I think it's 417. And when we get to... After the fire? After the fire is if Jack had survived. Yes. And I'll tell you about it in a couple episodes. But it is, oh, what are the?

What a great experience. This is awesome. More that was us after these words from our sponsors. This show is sponsored by Better Help. You know something I've been thinking about a lot lately, is how the idea of a new year, new you, can feel like a lot of pressure. Tell me about it, man. It's like suddenly you're supposed to fix everything all at once.

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Yes, let's do it. Basically, she's back. from the cabin. She's back. She's back. And Toby apologizes. She's pissed. She's back and she's angry.

Toby basically apologizes, right? Wishes he could take everything that he said about his fears back. Yes. But he really was speaking from fear. And in typical Pearson gentleman form. Come out here. I have something for you. I have a grand gesture for you.

And he tries to get through a grand gesture. gesture, which is a, is a music room for Kate to, you know, and he's put up a bunch of boxes that it will represent the musical equipment that will populate this room. Populate this music room for Kate. Yeah. And he doesn't even get to get finished with like the whole surprise. She says, and the big kicker. And she goes, get out there, buddy.

She does. She does. I'm sick of your shit. Yeah, she's basically just like, I need some time. Like, this is too much. Okay. These are just boxes. What do you think that was about?

Like, I was in a hundred percent sure. I can't play music on boxes. What is this a school for ants? This is the Tourette's that I was talking about. This school needs to be at least three times this size. You think I'm an idiot? That's a work light, not a microphone. Oh, God.

But what do you guys think? was happening in that moment for Kate. I think she was sort of like, look, what you said about our family, about our child, what basically I'm asking, like, are you able to be the parent, the father that Jack needs you to be, the husband I need you to be, you said your peace, I went away and now I'm back and you're like, actually everything's all good. I had like a weekend away with my son, we bonded, and look what I made for you. I think it was just sort of like...

I think she was actually holding a good boundary. She was actually like, wait, this doesn't erase everything. Like, there is a bigger picture. And it wasn't to punish him. No, it wasn't. But this is, so, like, this Kate Madison catch-up was really good. Because it functions on a couple of different levels. Like, obviously the stuff with Kevin, and we come to find out that Kev got raw dog or raw dog Madison

and that she's probably with his child, but we don't know that yet. Yeah. Because at the end of the episode, she tells. Kobe, Kevin and Madison slept together. Yeah. He's like, permission to have a proper response. Yeah. Like, what?

Hello? And I also love, like, Madison keeps trying to tell us, like, can I just tell you this one thing your brother did to me? Yeah. I was like, are you kidding? It reminded me one of my friends from high school, his name is Jason Brower, great guy. He had oldest sister whose name was Ashley Brower.

Ashley Brower. And she was gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous. And I used to say to Jason, the most inappropriate things. How about his sister? Sterling K. Brown. I was terrible. But it wasn't about what I was going to do. It was like, man, if that was my sister, how could I? We're going to have to edit this out. Yeah, Sterling. Sterling. What the fuck? Inappropriate. Are you? Yeah, just put your leg up on that couch. Yeah. Take a break. Take five. Okay. Sterling, what the fuck? I mean. You have to call someone and apologize. I apologize a long time ago. I think you need to do it again. I apologize to long time ago. I think you need to do it again, especially if Todd doesn't edit this out of the episode. But please don't edit it because I was making a point.

Like, that was what Madison was trying to do. I think. Yeah, and what Madison was trying to do was wholly inappropriate. As well. And Kate said so much. And then you talked about. Hold on, you guys. Yes.

She actually gave Kate some very good advice. Thank you for trying to bring it back. Yeah. She said, shouldn't Toby be allowed to express his deepest fear without punishment? That's it. I was like, okay, insightful woman. Oh, Madison coming around. And I think that that really clicks with Kate, so much so that she goes home.

So, Sterling, I apologize. Thank you for sharing your darkest secrets with us. Before we move on, like I believe that if honesty cannot be communicated without kindness, then maybe it just needs to be kept to yourself. That's kind of my sort of inner relationship. Right? Between two people. But then my question is like, when you do confess something about a fear or struggle, et cetera, and it's not necessarily the most attractive thing, like, when you say it, you know that your partner may take it a different way in which, like, it may impact them too, but you're being honest about how it impacts you? Like, what do you think are the rules of it? of like how much I take this person's feelings into consideration in terms of articulating my own truth. Does that make sense?

Do you guys hear what I'm saying? Yeah. Have you guys ever bumped up against something like that? Not personally, no. Sully? No. No. Can't relate it off.

I'm honest. I'm trying to think of an example. You don't have to have. There was just so much judgment in that, no. Listen, I only ask the question because I think that's what Toby was being honest. Yes, no. And I don't think he was intentionally being cruel. No, no, no, no, no.

You know what I'm saying? But it impacted her in such a way that she's like, oh man, like, are you in this or are you out of this? And so I'm asking that question, is like, was Toby wrong to say what he said? No. No. Not at all. Right. Kate's reaction.

That wasn't, but I don't think that was wrong. She's allowed to have her reaction. But I think the idea of coming back around and realizing that she maybe unintentionally was punishing him for being honest. Right. And that's not a healthy way to communicate or to handle tricky. situations in a relationship. I think, you know, what, it was an inevitable thing that both of them had to go through.

And I think from having gone through similar things in my own life, I think the goal that I look at for success is the amount of time it takes to get to repair. It's not a matter of fact that the conflict's going to transpire or whatnot, right? But like, how long does it take for you guys to be like, hey, can I check back in with you about this situation and make sure that we're in the right space? It's like, that's ultimately what you're just trying to get to. It's not that you can avoid you saying, like, when I look at him, this is what I see. And she can be like, oh, man, does that mean that you don't want to be a part of this thing?

And then ultimately, be like, hey, can we, let's touch base again to see what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, go ahead, Mandy. Kate comes home from her lunch with Madison, sees that Toby's on the couch with Jack asleep on his chest. And she basically says she doesn't want to resent him for their honesty. and she's really tired of the me versus you dynamic. And in light of all of that,

she really wants to circle back and see this studio idea that he has. And so the last, the reveal in the studio is that he's not only going to put together a music studio for her, but right next to her is a music space for Jack. And we then see a montage of Jack growing up. Yeah. And how this beautiful gesture from his father sort of informed his love of music and ultimately led to him becoming a musician. So you see him in various stages. And then we end up seeing Blake, Stadnik, who plays Jack, you know, in the future, I should say, maybe as a slightly younger man.

Jack Damon. Jack Damon. Playing music and it's just really beautiful. It's just the echo of like, you know, Randall becoming a runner. because of his father's influence and just the things, the little things that stick with us throughout our life, that become a coping mechanism or that become just part of who we are. Part of the fabric of who we are, yeah.

Okay. Kevin's storyline. So he's visiting Mom and Miguel at their house in Los Angeles. Yes. And she immediately knows that brother and sister of Tolton. He's like, so what's going on? What's new? You know, and you're like, they told you.

Yeah. I think he tells her she looks great or something. Like, you look really great. And she's like, okay. You know what? Zap. So she basically says he's like, he's very sad about it. And she goes, you know what, this bad news is like really freed me up. I feel like Carpe DM, Rebecca. I just want to live my life to the fullest. And, you know, she basically is like, we're starting to do all these things with our life. And in fact, like, Miguel and I are going to go visit a record store. Like we talk about it. it all the time. We never do it. And basically, he's like, oh, should I, I don't know if he suggests joining or she suggests him joining. And then Miguel kind of like backs off and goes, actually, you guys should go together. Mother and son, have a little mom and son date. And she's like, yeah, this sounds great to me. So we see them at the record store. Yeah. She has headphones on. She's listening to Joni Mitchell. Is this come from you? Or is this come from you? Or is this come from the writers and then? I love Joni, but like I never, I don't, I never said like, it was not your suggestion.

No, no, no, no, no, no. So I think this is just like the writer's color. You know, they sort of assumed like Rebecca's of that generation. She wanted to be a singer-songwriter, kind of came up during that same time. I got you. And, you know, you're just sort of starting to get this insight into Rebecca of like tapping into her past, tapping into things that she loved that reminded her of certain moments and times.

And I think this particular memory is really attached to this California trip she took with Jack where they were looking for Joni Mitchell's house. And they couldn't find it. They got lost. They were on Laurel Canyon. They turned up Lookout Mountain.

They thought they could find it. They walked to it, and they never ended up finding it, right? And, you know, she talks about how much her record collection meant so much to her, kind of like Kevin and his baseball cards. And Kevin's like, you know, mom, let's find Joni Mitchell's house. Let's finish the job that he didn't get to do with dad. Right. Like, we're here.

Why not? All of this to say, she knows she has a doctor's appointment, right? Miguel has given that caveat. You guys go have an enjoyable afternoon, but, like, you have to be, you have to have her back in time to go to the doctor. She has her MRI results. We're getting from her doctor. That's really important. And so you see Rebecca and Kev walking around.

They find, he Googles Joni Mitchell's house. Does he see or does he just go on? Here it is. And she's like, that's it. Yeah. Of course, like a revelation to an older woman who doesn't know how easy it is to find things now. So they drive to it. And, you know, she's just sort of like reminiscing.

She's back in that world of like, you know, and we sort of see these flashes of, young Rebecca and Jack on this California trip looking for Joni's house and it sort of toggles back and forth between the two of them and when they get there she's like that would have been enough to her right

like they ring the doorbell nobody answers but she's like I found it like mission accomplished and he's like no we're here like we should get closer you know and it ends up that like the gate is open they push the gate open because she pushes she pushes that yeah Carpe diem Rebecca's like

we're here, let's take advantage of it. And I love that he's sort of like, yeah, I'm going to get caught on TMZ breaking into Joni Mitchell's old house with my mom. And he's like, actually, that plays. Yeah, that play. His delivery of that was hilarious. Very good. And cut to commercial break.

So now you sort of see as she gets, she's, nobody answers the door, obviously, but they're standing sort of in the courtyard of this home. And she kind of sings a little bit of the song. And, you know, it's just this beautiful moment of her. like putting herself back in that time of like with jack and again it's like it's starting to dawn on her on the audience that like these are the things that will go like your memories are the glue that hold you together they are your identity they are you know the fabric of what makes us us and i think her realization that she hasn't received an official diagnosis but she

She knows in her gut what's to come. And I think there's just this acknowledgement of, like, I want to hold on to what I know in my bones. Like, I want to hold on to it as best I can for as long as I can. So I think there is a beautiful element of sharing these stories. Like, did I ever tell you about that time? Like, there's a lot of that on our show anyway. Passing on memories. Exactly.

But, like, that's what we have to do, right? As we get older, you have to pass on this lore. You have to pass on these stories, otherwise they wither and die, and they disintegrate. And I think in this particular case, that's what happens anyway with our brain and when those synapses die and they aren't firing anymore. And she, it's just, yeah, she talks about that, like this beautiful, like the song, Our House, that Graham Nash wrote about this beautiful, this poem that he lived in with Joni Mitchell and just this simple little tiny portrait. of like domesticity and what that was sort of like, like if he hadn't written that song, this like beautiful memory of just a normal afternoon

would have never existed. And she really loves that. And it prompts Kevin to ask her if she's scared about what's to come. And she says she's a little, she's present with him and she is a little bit scared. But she shares that, which I think is such a gift for Kevin,

that he is, he makes everything fun, right? And though people don't always take him seriously, there is such value in making people forget about their worries. It's the most important thing you can do. So for her to be able to relay that to Kevin, like, I know people write you off. And maybe we write you off in this family as well.

But what you bring to the table just by being you, this special skill of like making things, planning this beautiful, unexpected fun day for his mom, the suggestion of like, let's go find Joni Mitchell's house. You never got to do that with dad. Let's finish the job. Like, all of that has such value. And to never lose that, not just for her, but for like everyone else.

Like, that's such a beautiful gift you give to people. They get back in the car after leaving Joni's house. She kind of suggests, like, oh, let's go try sushi. Like that restaurant you're always talking about. And he's like, mom, I want to do that with you, but like, we have to go to the doctor. She's like, it's just MRI results. We could get it any day. And he's like, no.

Like, we're just delaying the inevitable. Let's go. Let's see what's what. And he also makes mention of the fact, like, people already think that, like, I don't. I'm irresponsible. Yeah. Yeah. And she's just like, you know, I don't want this day to end.

And he kind of tells her, like, I know, but like, it's going to end no matter what. Like, we can't delay. The inevitability. Yeah, the inevitability of things coming to an end. And so we go to the doctor with her. She does get the official diagnosis of cognitive impairment due to Alzheimer's. It's basically, you know, the atrophying of the memory centers of our brain. And she takes it in stride.

You can see that it hits Miguel, it hits Kevin, but she sort of is just sort of, but she was bracing for this. She knew what was coming. I'm sure they all did to a certain degree. And she gets home and basically says more or less, just were mentioning this, that she needs the sunshine, she needs the laughter from Kevin, like, don't treat me any differently. I need you exactly as you are. In fact, like, I want to keep doing things that are fun, that I've never done before, that are maybe outside of my comfort

zone, like, I want to go to your movie premiere with you. I see Matt Damon take his mom all the time. Like, I want to be, I want to be that. I want to have that experience. And he's like, you do? Okay. Yeah. I have my movie premiere in New York next week, like you should absolutely come with me. And that's sort of where this storyline ends, but it's beautiful, like, kind of like, you know, Rebecca and Randall have always been in lockstep from the beginning, right?

There have been, there's been much to navigate with Rebecca and Kate. There's been much to navigate, maybe a bit less so, with Kevin and Rebecca. But to see them sort of tied together in this really lovely, warm way. There's not resentment. There's not residual anger. He wants to be fully present for his mom.

And often that's what happens when, you know, there is this unexpected turn in life. And somebody receives a diagnosis. It puts everything in perspective. And I think that's what has happened with this family. And Kevin wants to make his mom smile, wants to be a light for her and to do whatever it is for her to enjoy her life. And I think that is what is at odds with Randall.

And we'll explore that more in the next episode for sure. But it's a beautiful place to end for them. Because I just don't often find that we're in that place. Kevin is sort of the forgotten triplet, the forgotten sibling. But it's beautiful that they end in this, after having this very special day. It's not often we see just the two of them share this sort of connection. And to have that echoed with the baseball card story, door. And, you know, Kevin present day going and getting that baseball card and putting it in his wallet as a memory of his mom is like, oh, makes me want to cry. It's just like, it's really, it's really beautiful. Yeah. Another great episode, guys. Should we take a break and talk to our friends Kevin Falls and Johnny Gomez, the two writers of this episode? Yeah, I feel like they'll offer some really good insight. And yeah, so we'll be back with more. That Was Us.

Caballera! What up, Johnny, what up, Kemp? Hi, guys. How are you? Hi. This is so exciting. You're up here, but we look over there. The camera is there, but our screen is there, so we have to look here away from you.

It's a very, very professional setup, you guys. Well, thank you very much, JG. We appreciate that. Gentlemen, thank you for taking time out of your very busy schedules to talk a little bit about this was, is us. Yeah. This is us on the podcast. That was us. I forgot where I was for a second.

This, we also realized, Johnny, this was your first writing credit episode, right? Ever, for anything ever. Ever, ever. Wow. It was this episode, yeah. Wow, that's amazing. And you were with us from Jump Street, weren't you? I came on like the last couple of weeks of season two.

So I was almost there the whole time. You felt omnipresent through the whole thing. And I remember us just being very excited that you got this thing working with the... He's always been here. The season pro that is Mr. Falls as well. Talk to us a little bit, you guys. I mean, like, first of all, what was it like getting your first episode, seeing your name on that line, having it come out as well as it did.

Talk to us about that whole experience. Well, for me, I'll just say I feel like I got the luckiest draw that I could have. have. I mean, the first thing that I ever, you know, had produced professionally, my first WGA credit is Sterling looking almost straight to camera, delivering a monologue. And I'm like, wow, this is pretty easy. I don't know. Throw anything down here. He's going to make it sound good. I also got paired with, you know, with Kevin here, who has just been an incredible mentor, not just for that first episode, but I mean, throughout, you know, these first few years of my career, he's been incredible

and an amazing friend and I think it's a testament about him and the culture that Dan created that we were able to just I never felt up against it.

I always felt like they weren't going to let me fail which is an incredible place to be when you're just starting out. Can you tell us like what the journey was from like how you got involved with the show

and sort of worked your way from in the writer's room to writing this episode? Yeah. Well I mean for me it was I was the writer's PA previously on Better Call Saul, and I was there for a couple of seasons and then had the opportunity to interview

to be the writer's assistant on This Is Us. Laura Kinnar, as you guys know, she was the writer's assistant for the first two seasons. She got promoted, she got staffed, and so they needed someone to fill her shoes. And so, again, similar, it's going to be a broken record. She was so incredible kind of showing me the robe, showing me the style,

and just kind of creating a runway for that. And so for all of season three, I was a writer's assistant, all of season four as a writer's assistant. And somewhere in there, I had heard that I was going to be getting a co-write on an episode. And that's when Mr. Kevin falls there, kind of put his thumb on the scale. It was like, oh, right. You're coming with me. You're coming with me, kid. There you go.

I say it's kind of like scouting football players, Bandy. Yeah. So I saw some talent there. and I always just very fond of Johnny because a bunch of us came in season three onto a hit show which is always a little scary for a new writer joining the staff

it's like, why are you here and it's more of a show me attitude? But of course, no surprise, they were very inclusive and sweet. But here's where I am right now and this is a node to Johnny Gomez and all writer's assistants everywhere the most, maybe one of the more unheralded jobs

but most coveted. jobs in Hollywood. I'm sitting in Johnny Gomez's suite in what was the This Is Us Riders room. Here it is. Oh, my God. That is his seat at the end of the table.

There was Johnny right there and Dan's up the opposite in there. Wow, you guys are like mom and dad at the head of the table on either end. They didn't keep the This Is Us timeline up around the room as to memorialize the... Just to confuse everyone. Had it painted on the wall.

Exactly. Well, wait, false. So you came in season three. Is that when you came on? Yes. I came in because they were doing Vietnam. Yeah. You were reading for city council.

Yes. And maybe Alzheimer's because maybe I'm the closest to that. Oh, my God. Who could we get? Who can we get? Checks all those boxes. What are still working out there that was an odd thing? Who can remember how to write still?

Hmm. But you have your history with Fogerman dates back. You were on, on pitch, right? Right. Did you run the room for pitch? Were you... Well, Dan, everything goes through Dan at the end. But Chris's Us was a big show, kind of like this one now.

And he needed somebody to help him run pitch. So we had some autonomy there. But the thing is, when you have a creator and a boss like him, that's so talented, you like him involved. Like, it's not like some guys, I think I either left today. But first of all, yeah, you need their blessings. But B, when it goes through his keyboard, it's it's he's just going to give you something better you know what i mean it's just you know

sometimes it's by degrees he also is the first guy if he likes something he won't do much to it there's a little more work he has to you know put it through his his computer but um he was just all as you know just a great hang but also just you know i've worked with two geniuses and he's one of them yeah and i you it's just to you'll learn so much just being around him i know who it is Who's the other one? His name is Aaron Sorkin. Oh. Because Kevin Falls did a little show called The West Wing.

Yes. I've never heard of it. Sounds promising. You should watch. Yeah. I've heard. The worst part would be if he wasn't talking about Aaron Sorkin and it was actually somebody else.

Yeah. He had to correct you. He's like, oh, yeah, three geniuses. Oh, two. Great, great. Thanks. Thanks for that. I was going to say myself, but I just thought that.

But you work with you all the time. Yeah. You're impossible to work. work with though. In terms of the storylines that we're exploring in this one, what are the things that you guys remember most prominently in discussion in the writers' room that sort of like folks were most enthusiastic to put on screen? Johnny, are you talking about just our episode or they're just the whole? We can talk about the whole of season four. Or you could tell us about like that dynamics in the writer's room. I find that always to be so fascinating. Sterling spent a lot

time in the writer's room. Chris and I spent significantly less time there. So it's always so interesting to hear what the dynamics are and how things rise to the top. And I mean, you just alluded to the fact that, like, if Dan likes an idea, he won't touch things. But I'm just curious, like, how these episodes get doled out and how you guys maybe felt specifically about this, because this is like Rebecca gets this, this diagnosis or she's about to get this diagnosis. Like, we're seeing Randall in therapy, you alluded to that as well. I have a lot of questions. I'm like, so answer that and then I have some more follow-ups.

Yeah. Well, Johnny, jump in. Globally, we talk at the beginning of the season. We kind of had like a little bit of a boot camp, you know what I mean? Where we're just trying to globally talk about the season. Dan will come in with what the arcs are. He always knew where he was going to end this show. Yeah.

But we were just talking before you guys came on. just speaking to the last season of COVID, we were in Dan's backyard in a tent. That's right. And we were kicking it around and also deciding is, were we going to wear masks that last season, what the character's going to be in the show. And we felt like you couldn't miss,

you guys, I think I've talked about this in the past, you couldn't help but address it on a show like this. But it felt like for the sixth season, in the last season, We didn't want the characters to be in masks so that we addressed it and we just kind of wanted to live without it. You know, it still existed in the world, but we decided, even though it was starting to wane, we decided that we would do that. But I do remember the first day when Dan cited KJ's idea of the train. And usually a lot of, not so much of stress, but in writer's rooms in the past, there's sometimes, just an element of resentment when somebody has a good idea that the boss likes and that is

to land the plane. It's like, oh man, KJ landed that one. It was none of that. Everyone just loved that and it lived up to the expectations. KJ is KJ is KJ was the train. She came. You didn't know that? I don't think I did. Because it's from her own life. It was her mother-in-law, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Oh, really? I can't wait to talk to her about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll have to, We'll have to have her on somewhere down the road to talk about that. Oh, yeah. She's, uh, and by the way, next to an Isaac Elizabeth who, who ran it on for Dan, kind of doing what I'm doing now on the show that Mandy's on.

Yes. Is just stewarding everything. It did he did a fabulous job too. Yes. But KJ, wouldn't you say Johnny KJ was kind of the, the, the heartbeat and the concept of the show? Absolutely. No. contributed for sure everyone was and i was i think having been in you know five or six different rooms

since this is us i think what i'm what i frequently look back to as like the kind of high watermark that this is us set uh for me was how incredible the amount of talent in that room and the shocking lack of ego when it came to someone with a good idea or someone with an an add-on or someone with even saying hey i'm not sure this is the right direction what about going this way it didn't matter if you were an assistant it didn't matter if you were co-op or the showrunner it felt like everyone's idea was treated equally and at least it wasn't my experience and i yeah kj was absolutely the heartbeat of so many of those episodes it really ruins everything else doesn't it in a weird way yeah yeah i was like oh this is great hollywood's amazing how it's going to be on every job

every job is going to be like this yeah that's sometimes the best experience sully is It's like, sometimes you can have a show that's maybe not something that's in the zeitgeist, but the experience was great. Don't get that. You kind of did the show you wanted, but it maybe was under the radar. But I will say, leaving the West Wing, I thought I would never work on something like that. And now I work two or three of them, and including the one I'm doing now. And, of course, the one I did with you guys.

And also how exciting it was, it should add on that Johnny is that, wow, I get to write for these actors. Like, you get to watch the show. I can't wait to, like, be able to write and see what they do with my banal dialogue. Yeah, how it's frequently described. Yeah, that's how people describe the dialogue on our show. We got Randolin Therapy. We have Rebecca receiving her diagnosis and trying to. No, not yet. She doesn't receive until the next, right? I thought it was at the end of this episode. At the end of this episode. Yes, yes, okay. End of this episode.

You're right, you're right. Sometimes you've watched too many in a row. I'm with you. When we watch like two, three, four in a row, we're like, what episode is that? I keep saying fours. It's hard to know where one stop. It's four and 15s because it's all one big movie, right? There's this crescendo that happens because Randall and Kevin are seeing things different in terms of how best to help their mother.

And I'm curious as to like get how that sort of thing happens. thing happens for you guys and developing it in the room. And then also just like Kate and Toby, Cotoby, and what they're going through in their relationship and how it ultimately comes out. Here's a couple of the most specific questions. Did we know for sure that that marriage was going to terminate? If so, at what point did we know that?

And then number two, those two brothers and the argument that they have in sort of jockeying for position within the family, like talk to us about how those things evolved, whichever one you want to go first with. Well, I'll talk to the Alzheimer's side of it. I do know that that's something that we had been talking about for, I mean, a long time. And Kevin alluded to it. I mean, this is four seasons worth probably of conversation from, you know, seasons three, four, five, six all the way through.

And the amount of research, I have to say, that went into this with help from the Norman Lear Foundation, who provided us with incredible doctors that we spoke to. And really getting into like the nitty-gritty, the granular of it with like mocha tests and all the different. cognitive impairment tests they do and what the diagnosis looks like, medication, comorbidities, like all that we did, we did too much research on purpose to be able to pull it back. And something that Dan always said was, you know, if it was like a random political storyline, we're not a show about politics, we're a show about how it affects his family, we're not a show about the medical diagnosis, we're a show about how it affects the family.

And so when it came to all of this, we had heard so many stories of families with incredibly differing points of view on how to deal with a family member, usually a parent with Alzheimer's. And Kevin, I think you can speak to this as well. One of the things that we honed in on early was how differently would the three siblings react to this. Yeah, I don't remember the actual, how we tripped on it or what went into how we, I just know that we were clocking, however would react to somebody like that. And really, when you think about it, the power dynamics for of the family of who's going to take charge and somebody in the guy like Kevin who feels underestimated, you know, and underestimated all his siblings.

You got Randall who feels like he has too much put upon his plate, you know, and Chrissy had her, everything that was going on in her life. And her plate was full. I think, I think Sterling, you say in that therapy, like, just because they have all these, their lives are piled with challenges. It's like, Not like I didn't have anything. You know, everyone kind of forgets that you're carrying that. What was so beautiful about that episode was Susan at the end, this isn't just about you.

That's my favorite moments. It's like, oh, no, there's a collateral damage to somebody who just doesn't think they need it. Yeah. Yeah, we mentioned that, that like, that would probably be the only thing that would thrust him back into therapy. Like, okay, I'll give it another shot. Yeah. That and only that. Totally.

I am curious, though, asking, doubling back on the question about Kate and Toby, because, like, you know, we start to see this, like, this repair in this episode sort of coming back together and Kate acknowledging that, you know, she shouldn't punish Toby for, for, you know, voicing his fears and she doesn't want to be resentful of him and, you know, this beautiful gesture of, you know, Toby with the studio for Kate and also this sort of, like, musical playground for baby Jack and how that sort of evolves. and shapes him as a musician in the future. But when did you guys sort of know that this was a couple that wasn't going to ultimately make it? Johnny, I felt we knew we were going there at somebody. It wasn't a surprise that just popped up, right? It certainly wasn't a surprise. I think we had so many conversations about the kind of

the ethics of a grand gesture. I remember we had a lot of conversations in the room about when you're talking about a romantic relationship, there can be an over-reliance on, like bad behavior, bad behavior, bad behavior, death by a thousand cuts, and then a really big romantic gesture that like awashes away all of those things. And how sometimes I think Dan love to play with these tropes too. You see that in movies. You see that in TV. But in real life, that's not always the sign of a healthy relationship. Sure. And so with this, there was something

so interesting about, you know, Toby in the last episode or the one before kind of was honest with his feelings but maybe too honest or like honest in a way that affected kate in a way that he didn't expect and so he's now on his back foot but you don't want to be apologizing for voicing his actual fears and feelings right but with her and so it's this kind of you know fatally flawed conversation between these two very complicated adults with their their own list of kind of issues going into it that to us it felt almost inevitable but in a way that we wanted to make sure that it felt real and that at no point did we want anyone saying, oh, Kate's the bad guy.

Oh, Toby's the bad. It's just life. It never feels malicious, but it is the root of an irreconcilable difference for lack of a better legal term. But that's the interesting part that the writing on this show always seem to thread that needle of pitting people against each other is i can't think of a better way to put it but who are both right like two two sides of uh two stances that are that are opposed but that are both justified or correct or which are the hardest the hardest things to kind of resolve i have a

question about kate's journey and relationships because even though it's not in this episode the presence of mark has been a very interesting one for us to discuss throughout the season. No, no, we've been discussing it. Sterling. I loathe him. I loathe him. Yeah.

I loathe him. Once blood. And I do believe, I think Mandy or you, Chris said, like, he has no redeeming qualities. None. He's the darkest character in the show. We're going on record, and we're curious to see if you think that there's someone who out darks mark. But, man, you talk about, like, this visceral thing that happens in my body in watching him

and the way that he treated my sister? Oh, my God, I've never wanted to just thumb somebody in the eyeballs as strongly as I've wanted to do so to Mark. And I'm curious, like, what you guys talked about as writers in terms of what was important about Mark and Kate's journey in relationship to Mark. You want to start with that one, Kevin? I was going to say, I saw you looking to make sure what Mark is doing. And I can't remember as much about him.

I remember the character. I don't remember. So, Mark, the thing that I remember most, because this is Teen Kate's horrible boyfriend that she has, is the- We just got through these episodes. Sorry. Sterling, in all fairness, that's not a part of this episode.

It's not the last one. It was 414. Kevin's like, I just watched my episode. Sterling wants to go back and do reshoots of growing. Stone Sterling hunting Mark down and murdering him. Kevin saw me quickly Googling to be like, what was this again? If Mark could pop up in the bubble in Sterling's new show, so we go, hey, hey, come here.

That would be good. Chase it down, murder him. That'd be good. If you guys could pass that alone. I will say that I think it is of a piece because we are showing the kind of many loves in Kate's life and how they affected her in a different way. In this episode, you have her, you know, young. young Kate was Stewart breaking up with her her little junior high boyfriend and how that affects her.

I think in the previous beyond, we might have seen a snippet of her with Mark at the cabin. And to Sterling's point, I think this is one of those things that were in the room. I remember having a lot of conversations about how far do we take it. And I think breaking Jack's mug was that thing that like... Yeah, that was a doozy. We talked about that for a long time, for the days. That was a point of discussion because it's like, is it. Too far. Are they going to murder him?

In the writer's room, this is a, did he drop it on purpose or do you think it slipped out of his hand? Oh, God. I don't, dude, do you remember, Kevin? I think it was. I always feel. Because it happens off screen. It happens off screen, right. And the ladies here feel like

it was an intentional thing. Like, oh. It feels accidentally on purpose. What I will, what I will say about this character is that in all of the characters of the us, as dark as people get, the writing team always goes out of their way to show you why this person is this dark, because it creates compassion for a character, right? Yeah, Jack's dad, absolutely, you know what I mean? And Mark never gets that. Mark is just,

Mark is just a psychopath in a record store. Wait, but I have a question about this episode. Going back to something that's more top of mind. Was, who came up with the idea of making the therapist appear off screen? Yeah, anonymous. For the majority of this episode, it's Sterling sort of just speaking to her. And it's, it's very, like, arresting. You know, it's so engaging. The feeling that I had was like he felt confinement, right?

Like, he was stuck in something that he didn't necessarily want to be a part of by virtue of not having her in the space. just a voice, but not seeing the therapist themselves. I think it was Dan, wasn't it? It was. Yeah, Dan had that image in his head early. I think he really liked the idea of us feeling trapped with Randall and just really being unable to. I remember we originally when we talked about it, I mean, we had talked about doing,

this happened a lot on the show. We'd be like, oh, what if there's an entire episode where it's just from wall to wall at Sterling in therapy? And it's just, that's what, and then it's like, well, no, we have all these other storylines of it to do. Maybe it's one act. And then that became, okay, well, maybe it's a oneer that comes through. And what we kind of landed on was we have to split up a story throughout the episode,

but it is going to be kind of, and I think we filmed it this way. We really did film it pretty much just all the way through. I mean, we did, there weren't, I mean, Sterling, you remember this. There weren't a lot of setups. No. We had a couple of coverage, but from the very beginning, there was no coverage on your therapist. We never flipped on Pamela Adlon until the very... Did anyone tell her that before she arrived on set?

Or... We're going to get you in hair and makeup, but we're not going to see you. They never pointed the camera at me. I was there for six hours. I think she did so. She had a history as a voice actress where this is fine. She's having used to that. We were Tanya.

I love it. Can we get Bobby from King of the Hill for this for this role? By the way, I remember that day, Sterling, because... Pamela was there. I think it was a holiday. It felt like no one else was shooting on the lot. Yeah. So it may have been Saturday or a holiday. But I remember you and Pamela, she was hilarious. Hilarious. She was hilarious. And, you know, starting with that lap, all just on the corner of the stage, wherever you went, you could just hear him laughing because Pamela was just so funny, you know? And I just remember that, like, oh, I'm glad I'm here. That's why Pamela thinks he's a genius. We just laughs at her. We have become fast for.

I love her immensely. Let me talk about this one thing, because I haven't had a chance to address this. This journey with Kev and his mom in the episode and this very heartfelt, sweet sort of thing that Rebecca says, like, don't ever treat me any differently. Right? Like she knows, like she gets the diagnosis.

She knows that life is going to change. But she also understands that I need people to give me like a sense of normalcy and not treat me like I'm someone who is sick, but just treat me with love and kindness with a sort of care-free spirit. There's this interesting parallel. I don't know if I've talked to Dan about it,

and maybe I mentioned it to you guys in the writer's room because my mom was dealing with ALS and it's still with us going through it. And I remember thinking to myself, like that's how I try to function for mom. Like she can't communicate, but we get on the FaceTime or whatnot. And my goal is just to make her smile, is just to make her laugh or whatnot.

And I'm just curious for you guys, like how that all came into being with this beautiful relationship with Kev and his mom. Well, I do know, Johnny. I remember this, is that Dan really wanted to be, I remember him pitching those lines about he just wants to make her laugh. That's what he's there for. And she's afraid everyone's going to,

she's going to, Rebecca's afraid everyone's going to change around her. But she, at the time where everyone's like worried, but she wants that one light that's still kind of making her chuckle. And I always feel like, because of some of the things that happen in Dan's life, that I think he played that role in his family at times. And what better person, because he's hilarious. I think Dan played both Randall and Kevin. Oh, yeah.

Do you know what I mean? Because I think he shouldered a lot of the burden of trying to make sure her care was everything that it could. be, but because who he is as a person, too, is someone who wants to bring light and levity, like, I think he understands, like, both of them to a certain extent. Interesting. For sure. I think that's always what was so beautiful about this show is you would have, in one scene, a beautiful love story jutted right up against the realities of someone aging in Alzheimer's

or with, you know, you, Dan's M.O. for this show has always been, that's what life is. Life is laughing at a funeral. You know what I mean? That's just one. what the kind of complicated story of all of our lives inevitably always is. Yeah. Guys, thank you so much for joining us and taking time out of your busy schedules. Yeah. Where Falls, you're working on the land right now, which also stores Amanda Lee Moore. Is she phoning it in?

Is she doing all right? She embarrassing us or what? No, she's fabulous. I'm watching her play Rebecca in like nine different timelines. Men coming here and doing a Mandy Moore you've never seen. And making her say the F word we hear. I said there's a lot of F bombs on set. So much.

Mandy, you're America's mom. I know. I know. I don't think so. I'm going to get in trouble. This is all. J.G., what are you up to these days, man? So right now, actually, just the first two episodes are out, Pluribus on Apple TV.

That's you? You on that? It just came out. I'm on that show. Yeah, I wrote episode eight, which is going to be airing down closer to Christmas. But that's the big one right now. Everyone needs to tune in and watch because Vince is giving a crazy, crazy show. Oh, I can't wait.

I can't wait to watch it. Gentlemen, again, you guys both rock. Thank you for making time for us. And also, thank you for the service of giving us your banal words for four to five seasons. You guys rock. We love you. Yeah, we love you. Thanks, guys. Thank you guys.

Come in and see us. We'll do. We'll do. Later, fellas. Bye. What a great conversation with Kevin and Johnny. Gosh, I love those guys. Incredible.

They are remarkable. The fact that this was Johnny's first WGA credit. You're welcome. And he's gone on to much acclaim. But yeah, it's so interesting. Like I love talking to any. of our guests, obviously, but the writers in particular, I mean, they are sort of the magic of the show, right? Like, they are, you know. Because they're putting themselves into it. Like,

you can tell, you can just tell that like this stuff isn't coming, it's not coming out of someone's imagination. No, no. Like, this is people's lives. Yeah. Yeah. They're very specific experiences. And, yeah, I loved chatting with another, another fun one, guys. Reach out and talk to us. You know how to do it. That was us pod at gmail.com. Get on that speakpipe. Speakpipe.com slash that was us. Yep.

You know, support our sponsors. Tell friends about this show. Send them your favorite episode. Subscribe, like. Rate, review. You know. Tell everyone you know, dog. This is a good one, man.

This is, uh, makes me miss my mom. Aw. Makes me. Yeah, that whole story on you and Kev is so beautiful and just being able to smile. You know what I'm saying? Like, sometimes that's what we need. So hopefully you guys listen to the podcast. Hopefully we were able to put a little bit of a smile on your face.

That's it. That was us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Thank you.