That Was Us - Siddhartha Khosla and Us | Composer

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

Join us in welcoming the composer of “This Is Us,” “Only Murders in the Building,” and so much more… Siddhartha Khosla. How did he develop the most perfect heartstring-tugging music for the show? How did his roots and upbringing inspire the soundtrack? What was it like being college roommates with Dan Fogelman (creator of “This Is Us”)? You are in for a real treat! Performing his song, “Evergreen Cassette,” and bringing back all the feels, Siddhartha Khosla sends us down memory lane to relive the beautiful connection we all felt with the Pearsons when watching “This Is Us” for the first time. Follow That Was Us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Threads, and X! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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When you go to talkspace.com slash TWU and enter promo code space 80. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com slash TWU and enter promo code space, the number 80, to get $80 off of your first month and show your support for the show. That's talkspace.com slash TWU promo code space 80. This is the episode I've been looking forward to maybe more than any other episode. Today, we have the musician extraordinaire composer for the music. This is us, Sid Kosla. Hi, guys.

I was going to say, if you love our show, one of the reasons you love it is because of Sid's contribution. This is absolutely true. Your fingerprints are all over the show. Like the emotion that is elicited doesn't just come from the words. It comes from your score. And that was rewarded over time, acknowledged over time. with awards and all of that sort of stuff.

I mean, it's like, it's undeniable. You are just such, again, a part of the fabric of the show. Mandy and I have a unique experience in that we have seen episodes of this show with no score. Before the music comes in. And I sent a panicked email to John Huertes. I'm like, what I have directed is terrible. It is awful. And he essentially said, don't worry.

Dan and Sid will fix it. yeah i don't i don't agree with that and a reason why is that what makes the show as emotional as it is i know you guys say it's the score oftentimes i am seeing i remember my experience on the show um the very very first we can get into like more of the granular details of like what happened early on and how it started but my experience on the show time and time again was seeing picture that already moved me And I had to find that balance between just like giving just enough sort of push to maybe open up the tear ducts a hair more. And it was because it was already there.

I'm telling you, it was already there. It was shot beautifully. It was performed beautifully. It was written beautifully. So I never felt like I had to cover up anything that wasn't there. And that's what the magic of all that together is what made the show, I think, great is all of that. I will say this. In a re-watching of season one,

what I have realized that the music does for me is it makes me feel safe to experience this show. Yeah, that's such a good point. It's like this emotional guardrail that says what you're feeling is valid, what you're feeling is true, and here. Here's this warm musical hug to allow you to just kind of feel along.

Yeah, and you're safe to do so. And you're safe. Yeah. I mean, I'll say, like, this is tangential because there's the score. And then there's just, like, the songs that they picked that also complement the score, like, all of it. And as I watch it, too, because sometimes I'd be like, oh, I don't know. Is that going to fit? It feels timeless.

Like, the show feels like it existed contemporaneously as when we were shooting it. But I'm sure, like, people will watch it 20, 30 years from now and be like, oh, this could happen like. Right now. So tell us how you came to the show. your history with Dan Fogelman and scoring film and television. So Dan and I went to college together. It's going to be crazy. Yeah.

We were freshman year hallmates. This is nuts. It's nuts. This is you Penn. This is you Penn. Right on. Flex on them, Jack. Let them know.

This is a give you a sense of our age. We're talking about in 1994. Oh, my God. Freshman year. Yeah. I graduated in 98. Yeah, yeah, come on. Oh, that's right with the same year.

We're the same year. 94 we were we were hallmates and and my sort of experience freshman year like I was known in the hallway on the inner hall for for singing karaoke into our Iowa stereo system we had there were like these karaoke sound systems and we would turn the speakers outward from our window into the quad and as people would go by I would just start like heckling people or just singing songs, people would look to look up. And then Dan would sometimes hang in the room with us. And it was just, we developed this sort of friendship just through, you know, in the hallway, you kind of see what your other kids you go to college with are doing. And Dan and I just gravitated towards each other. We became really good friends and then we lived together the following year in a house together.

What did you guys bond over initially? I mean, were you video game dudes? Were you sports guys? Like, both over love of music, over love of art. Like, what was the connective thing that brought you together? Dan had an Indian roommate. That was, like, the only connective thing between us. Good.

No. But we didn't really, I don't know what is, we have very different interests, right? And I was an a cappella dork, like singing an acapella group. And Dan and, Dan and, like, our hallmates, people would come to the shows. Okay. Acapella studs, we call them. Accapaula studs. But Dan's strength, and it's still his strength to this day,

is that he's able to bring people together from all walks of life, who are very different, and put them all together in one room and say, you all belong. This is a very fulgoman thing to do without realizing he's doing it. It's just in his DNA. That's cool. Dan assembled a house. of, it was like, it was like a motley crew of guys.

It was like, you know, Indian Acapella Dork. Stud. Stud. Stod. There you go. Stork. Stork, he said. Stork, yeah.

Stork. They were like basketball players, football players. So it was like all these jocks and then like, you know, some nerdy kids. Like, I was in the nerdy kids. You guys lived like in a row house or something? Is that what? It was at Penn, there were like these, there was off-campus living in these like, in these, in these old, like, beaten up, beat-up little homes that had, like, you know, your room was maybe

like 150 square feet. Okay. And so we all, he put this house together. And he put all of us together. And then we lived together this sophomore year and had an amazing time, great experiences together. But it was like the first, and in, in that sophomore year when we lived together, we would be wasted at like 3 o'clock in the morning.

And I remember these conversations. It was me, Dan, and another one of our friends. And Dan would always say, he's like, Dan's like, Dan's like, Dan's like, I'm talking about himself. Dan's like, I'm going to be a famous writer one day. And he goes, Sid, you're going to be a famous musician one day. And our other friend, Chris, he's like, you're going to be a famous lawyer one day. And this is, we get drunk and just talk about our future.

Chris is homeless now. Dan would, yeah, Chris is, Chris is. Two out of three ain't bad. Yeah, right, right. Dan and I are not friends with them anymore. Chris ended up becoming assistant U.S. attorney for New York. So pretty much the highest level of lawyer you could be. Right.

Okay, so it was not, so, but Dan was always like, he had this feeling about all of us that we were going to pursue these careers. Yeah. And it was just, the thing we'd fantasize about when we'd be, have after a bunch of drinks and just hang out. And so that was always, and so it's interesting, like from a very early age, Dan saw me performing. He saw me writing music. He saw me singing. So we had, he knows me. I mean, at this point, we've known each other longer than we haven't, right?

We met when we were 17. And so he knew sort of what I could do musically, even from a young age. So, you know, fast forward several years later, I was in a band, we would tour. Called, a band is called Gold Spot. And we played in L.A. And Dan would be like one of five people coming to the shows, you know? Like, it was like, that was a support, always. But he always knew and recognized what I did.

like he heard he knew my he knew you know where the music came from yeah and so when it came time to eventually hire me on something he called me um is on another show what was the first thing yeah what was the first collaboration so i just come back from tour my record came out in london and it totally flopped and i came back and i was just trying to figure out what my next steps were like i was like i'm gonna be in a band i was like i'm gonna make records and um and dan called me and i And I never called him about it. He just, because I was like, I didn't want to, like, feel like I needed a gig or something. And he already been doing TV, like, where was he in his career vis-a-vis where you were at that time?

So, I went off, I had been in my band. Dan at this point had written cars. Oh, wow. He wrote cars when he was 25. Yeah, he'd written cars when he was, like, in his mid-late 20s. What a gig. And he crushed that one, huh? And so cars, and then he wrote, and he wrote crazy stupid love that was directed.

by Glenn Fikara and John Riqua, who did our pilot and several other other episodes. So he was a really established screenwriter at this point. Got it. Tangled came in somewhere? Tangled came in there too, yeah, yeah. Tangled was in there by that point. So many, Fred Clause.

I mean, he'd done so many films and TV. He loves Fred Clause. Yeah, he'd be so psyched that you mentioned. Yeah, I did that on purpose. The Pinnacle, Fred Clause. Fred Clause. Okay, so he's doing well. He's doing well.

great and Dan had this show called The Neighbors on ABC and they were looking for a new composer for their second season and he called me interesting enough I just I had just gone to like a Penn reunion and I was on a train leaving Philly and I get a call from Dan and he was like will you come in and score season two of my show and I was like nah dude I was like I don't know how to score for TV and film I can't do this so I said so and he was like he's like I really want you to do it and I was like here's my guitar player's number

because this is what he wants to do and he's been trying to break into this and the band is sort of like I don't know what we're doing next just call him and Dan's like I really want you to think about it and he goes I really believe that you can do this and he goes I know your melodies

from band world and they connect to me I feel the emotionality and I'm like he's like I think you can bring that skill here and I'd never written anything for TV or film I didn't go to school for any of it I was in a band So all my only experience was

Acapella group and band Right that was really it And then you know Arranging for my Acapella group Like writing for the voice part So I never really had I didn't have the confidence I could do this honestly And Dan was like

I really want you to do this So I get off the phone with him And I'm on the phone with my manager And I'm like Dan Fogelan called me A friend of mine from college And he wants me to score season two of his show And I was like I told him I was like I want to make records

I can't do this And he goes, pick up the phone. This is Dan Folgerman, who called you. He goes, do you know who that is? I was like, yeah. I was like, we used to get drunk together. Piss on walls when we were a freshman college. Okay.

And, and can I can say that on this? Yeah. Okay, sorry, if anything feels like, you know. Please tell. We were like, yeah. We were 17. Yeah. It's going to get me and Dan canceled.

You're not going to get canceled. Yeah. That was us. Hold on. We've all pissed on. Yeah, it really is the that was us. Mandy, come on. This will really become the That Was Us podcast.

We're good. It's fine. Okay. So he's like, Dan Fulgeman called you to do something. He's like, that guy is a beast. You know, this is, and he's like, we should, you should be open to maybe having your career going a different direction. I think at that point, I was just pretty green.

I was like, no, I'm going to make another record. This is what I'm going to do. not thinking about I don't know the fact that I was that I was getting about to get married future family like what did it mean for me

to really be in a band how could I really do that with all of it too and so that called Dan back and I was like okay I'll do it and he was so psyched and then we ended up doing that show together and then the show got canceled

the year I worked on it okay wait home so I want to halfway through that year yeah I want to go like through the steps of this because like we were speaking the other day about fear standing in the way

of taking advantage of opportunity and that sort of thing you stepped in because you had a buddy who reached out and said I think you can do it you had a manager that said don't be a dumbass

your buddy's actually got some real heat so then you step into a new job to something that you've never done before what are the steps of faking it to you make it how you figure this crap out I think what it was and it's funny

because some of the things I learned in that process I still do to this day, and it all comes from fear of, like, being fired off the job, not being good enough for the job. Sure. And I remember why. That's how I approach my acting. I watched season one of that show, The Neighbors. And I just went and did what I could. The only thing I knew how to do was write music.

And I just wrote, not to any picture. I just wrote wild pieces that were like six, seven minutes long. And I'm riffing on, like, melodies and themes that felt like this show. show made me feel something, and I just recorded all this stuff. It was also orchestral, and I'd never really dabbled in orchestra before, and so we have software that allows us to, like, find a violin, or in the most lay way to say, you know, the MIDI software that I can play an orchestra with my hands, basically, right? And I would send these pieces into Dan, and the director of that show, main director of that show,

was Chris Koch. Ah, right on. And Chris Koch was also the composer of the show Season 1. What? Yes. Isn't that crazy? What? Chris Koch composed the score for The Neighbor Season 1.

Wow. Chris Koch, for anyone that doesn't know, directed some of the seminal This Is Us episode. Yes, he did. Probably behind Ken Olin directed the most number of episodes. I did not know that he was a composer. Yeah, he's a great musician, too. So you're like sort of stepping into his job as he's supervising you? Yeah.

And it was me sending music. to Koch and to Dan for approval. And Koch had set a palette already and had some themes, and I was just sort of integrating them into the show because they were good. And I was like, I mean, I'll do my own thing in places, but that's how that all started. And then I just, I had so much fear that I couldn't score to a picture. I had never done it before. And Dan was always like, he would like the melodies I would write.

and he would say bring that melody back here bring that melody back here and he point to the areas to do it and he taught me to them that to write thematically dan in that process dan was like it's okay to have a singular theme right a singular melody that you just go back to over and over and over again it's okay i mean that's the john williams approach that's Spielberg that's how they work they're just wrote dan didn't write does dan play anything? No, no, no, no. He does a lot of things.

That's one thing he's not good at. But he has an understanding of like the recurrent. Yeah, okay, got it. He has feel. What Dan offers and what he's done, what he did phenomenally well on this show and other others, but this one particularly ours on this is a, this is what, this is us, is that he's got great feel, great emotional feel. He knows if something moves him in a certain spot, it's going to move millions of

other people too. He has that thing in him. That's the magic. Okay. Which is why when you're watching End of the pilot This Is Us or anything, you're like hair raises and you're like, oh, holy shit, what just happened? Because he's, we see him

he experiences these things himself when he's watching and working in the edit bay. And when something hits him, he knows it's going to hit other people. It's a very cool thing. And so it's like he's got great feel. But even back then, he had great feel. always had it okay so we worked on that show together so you do that and then it it gets canceled okay

continue and then i'm like all right see i'm not supposed to be doing this that was your takeaway what year was that 13 2014 okay 2013 2014 that sounds right and so i went back and started making another record called arogram yeah which is about my family that's about my whole family journey my parents' journey from India to the United States in the late 70s, their experience as immigrants, I wrote an entire concept album about that. And that was my band Gold Spot. So I went back to doing a little bit of that. And then in that time, I started getting offers to score other people's things.

Okay. Because probably, because they're like, you work with Dan Fulgerman, you must know what you're doing. That's kind of what would happen. Interesting. It was like even though I had done the show, and it was his first show, the neighbors. and it got canceled, there was some cred that was earned by just being in the world that

like someone of his caliber had decided to hire me, not knowing that it was really nepotism that brought us together. So what else did you do in between? I just did some indie films. I ended up doing this show called The Royals with Elizabeth Hurley on E. There's like a soapy drama. Did you feel like you had a groove at this point in time, or are you still sort of honing a groove? honing a groove.

Honing a groove. Because I still didn't know, even to this day, I still don't know what I'm doing when I get on a project. I always feel like I'm just flying by the seat of my pants. It always feels that way to me. Okay. It did on this show a lot.

And I think that's sort of the, you know, I don't feel like I'm ever at that point where I know exactly what I'm doing until I'm multiple seasons into something. Okay. But I had these gigs, and I was doing these other shows, and then Dan would, call me to do his pilots and new shows that would come up.

Got it. Got it. Yeah, I was going to ask. And we kept on working together in that capacity. How did this is us, like, come to you? At this point, now I'd started doing some more TV film. I had my record going on. Dan calls me one day, and he's like, I have a, this is like maybe 2016.

Yes, it is. Like early 16? Yeah, yep. When did you guys start filming? 2016. Yeah, beginning of 2016. Yeah, yeah, January, February. Yeah.

I think it was probably February or March he called me. He goes, I have this new show. It's called the Untitled Fogelman Project or whatever. He's like, I'm just going to send you the script. And he's like, let me know what you think of it. And he's like, we have my directors from Crazy Stupid Love, Glenn and John, are coming on board. And Dan's like, they have people that they've worked with before in terms of composers. And they've worked with, like, all people that I love to.

And Dan's like, just see what you think, read it. And I read the script and blown away. I just remember being like, you know, this is mad. There's some magic to this. This is really special. So at that time, and I've told this story before, my wife and I were living with our daughter, Nevi. We were living in Jersey City, in Jersey. And I was composing everything at that point.

People thought, like, I had a friend of mine who lived in. in Brooklyn, like another music composer that sometimes I'd go to his studio to work out of. I started telling people that I worked from Brooklyn, because it just sounded cooler. And so, anyway, I talked to here, like, oh, yeah, sits in Brooklyn, you know. Hey, that sounds cooler than saying, like, Jersey City. Jersey City, right? And it sounds way cooler than where I really was working was my parents' basement in Jersey. So I, so my parents live in New Jersey, and I needed to find some, the,

place for a little bit more space. I'd go into their basement and I set up a little desk. It was just like, it was this wooden table and I had a laptop on it and I set it up in the corner of the basement and I would just work from there. And I never told anybody that I worked for my parents' basement. And I got the pilot, when I got that pilot episode, I was blown away by that script. Dan told me, this is not your gig basically right now. I'm not, you're just not going to, can't just give it to you basically. You just have to, you have to, you have to talk to Glenn and John, see how they feel about you because they're doing the pilot. And, you know, the directors of pilots are huge.

Yeah, they have a lot of influence. Absolutely. They set the tone, as you know, and the tone of our show really was established in that pilot in a beautiful way. Obviously, it evolved. Ken took it in a whole other place. And that was gorgeous in its own way. But, you know, it started with Glenn and John in the pilot. And I was coming out to L.A. for a meeting or something, and I wrote this piece of music, and I didn't want to show it to Dan.

I was like, I wrote this six-minute piece of score off the pilot. And this is how I would think and how I still think to this day, and I'd start writing. And I came to L.A. and I extended my trip for a few days, and I spent three days in a recording studio here in L.A., like a real recording studio with a friend of mine. and we recorded this piece of music and that's what I turned into Glenn and John and Dan after I spent so much time on it and Glenn and John and Dan were like that's it right there, that's the sound.

Was it the germination of what eventually became the score that we know, the sound that we know? It became, I turned this piece of music into them and it was like it became you'll hear for the first time in like the first couple episodes when Chrissy is in that Weight Watchers class. Oh, yeah.

That's the theme that plays there. That's the very first thing I ever wrote for the show. In my mind, I was like, this is a dramatic piece. This could end an episode. I was like, this has this sort of weight to, it's got a melody. I was like, and Glenn and John were like, no, we're going to use it. And Dan, we're like, we're going to use it over a comedic sequence. You know how some of those Weight Watchers scenes early on?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were like, they were funny. They were like, there was so much banter there between you, Chrissy, the meetings, all that. And in my mind, this is a funny comedic scene. I would get picture back and they would drop that theme over there. And I remember being like, why are we, this is a dramatic piece of score. Why are we putting over something funny? And that's when Glenn and John and Dan hit on something in the pilot and they were like,

we're never going to touch the comedy in the show. you're not scoring comedy ever which would be also be kind of hokey in some ways to do it because it's already grounded in real it's funny but we're going to score the subtext

of why these people are here wow and that's what they would do and then it became like okay now we're starting to understand this that became that started that was the language of the show

in terms of why we use music when we use music what it sounds like and the other piece of it too as Dan told me when he gave me the script. He's like, I'm thinking of using, he's like, we're thinking of using Sufian Stevens. His music, his song to play in the first,

in the opening of the whole season, the series. So I heard, and I love Sufion. And so I heard it, and I was like, okay, this is organic, acoustic-based. This is what they're already responding to. And so then that piece that I wrote felt like it could have been maybe like a B-side of like a Sufion.

Sure, sure, sure. but it had that feeling a little bit. And so anyway, but that was a huge moment because that got me the job for the show. And it also taught me that moment that, like, I can bring in my own artistry from, like, my band world just by reading a script. I don't have to pay attention to picture right now.

I can read a script and feel the emotion in it and write something to it and turn it in, and it can become something. And I can feel free to mess around with sounds and ideas and not feel confined to anything. Is that how you approach the job still? Still. Wow.

Amazing. Yeah. So it's not even, like, every once in a while, it's too picture, but it's like the initial is just from how the script hits your soul. 100%. Wow. Because then also, the challenge as a composer is, and I have this conversation with a lot of other composers in this business, is that oftentimes composers don't get involved until later

in the edit so you film the episode editor gets in does their cut of the episode they'll put in what's called temp score they'll find score from other soundtracks other things that they want their show or film to feel like

and then you're then as a composer you come in later on and then you're chasing temp which is the thing that like I just can't stay it drives me nuts and it's the one thing that like I to this day, I try to avoid as much as possible,

which is why I also write early, because it all comes from, it all comes from insecurity of having to chase temp. If there's gonna be temporary music, it might as well be your temporary. 100%. It's all that, it's, so it's, A, it's a lot of ego there. And B, it's also nerves of having to chase something.

It skips a bunch of emotional steps. It's interesting. Like you guys, you and Dan are very similar in this way, because Dan doesn't like do, he just writes the script, and then he gives it to people. so that like he doesn't have to like pitch an idea and then have to go follow it because then they may have to he's like we want it to look like this show and he's like no no no he doesn't want to show you the show Dan doesn't want their imagination to come up with anything right I mean yes truly no no here's what it is right right he has a vision similar similar thing and it's and and and also if we want to create something original and something beautiful in our minds like sometimes you have to sort of allow for you know the artistry to come through yeah and you have to sort of allow a place for i mean had we not done it this way i don't think this score would have been what it was it would have been a

different thing may have been still its own could have been great in its own way but like it would have been a different thing um inevitably so did dan give you just carte blanche of like go right what you want right what you want and then i started seeing the pilot episode and i think in the pilot, when they were working on the pilot, they probably had temped music that I never got to see. Oh, great. Because they were deep in, when I finally got to see, the first thing they sent me was a completed director's cut. Like, Dan was already working in there. And Dan was like, Sid, can you just write score for these scenes here? Yeah. And I would start writing score for the scenes. Yeah. And normally, an editor always will kind of, to present their cut. They will find music from somewhere. And so on this particular show, they would just send. me dry picture and I would just write. Wow. And then that became, and so I think Dan also, which is the strength of Dan, and you

probably experienced this as actors and directors and working on the show is he's so collaborative. He wants you to bring your best version of yourself to these projects. And it's not, honestly, it's so rare that that happens in our industry. Yeah. Very rare. Agreed. We'll be right back with more.

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That's T-H-E-O-U-A-I-D-E-O-A-I. code tw you can you can you talk a little bit about how your indian heritage or or classical indian not classical but indian music or indian um musical sounds influenced the score for this show if at all yeah i mean i'm indian so i'm indian yeah yeah that's right um next question i'm kidding no but i mean like

behind you you have an instrument called a bazooki yeah which is not a typical american folk instrument right so a bazooki is a greek instrument but i'm using it and on the acoustic guitar you're right there's a lot of sort of Indian influence in the music and back to sort of like my story when my parents

came here in the late 70s. I was born soon after they got here and at that time they brought I think they brought like $8 with them to the U.S. That's all they had coming to this country. There was no foreign currency reserve at the time.

It was pre-Ragan, a whole other thing but no foreign currency reserve and so there was only like a finite amount of rupees you could exchange for dollars before coming to the U.S. So they came here with $8.00 on scholarships. I was born. They sent me back to India to be raised by my grandparents for the first few years of my life. A couple years, two or three years.

And so I grew up listening to like old Hindi music. That like my grandparents would play for me. And so that's all I listened to. And then my mom would send, and this will move into this other thing later, but my mom would send cassette tapes with her voice on it to me in India for me to hear her voice, for her to sing me lullabies, tell me she loved me, she missed me all that, right? Because it was $24 a minute to make a long distance

phone call. $24 a minute! That's what it was. And if you talked, it'd be like, hello, hello, hello. You'd hear like an echo go on forever. It's the worst phone calls. So, I had my mom singing me

these old little lullabies Sone chaly these old little lullabies old Hindi lullabies on these cassette tapes and I would hear all this stuff and so my

musical DNA was sort of being formulated at that time between old Hindi music and people and my parents who are now in the West I'm in the East

reversed sending you know their sending their music to me and me learning that way. So in my blood is this, it's there, that Indian music. You start playing in India? You start playing when you get back to the States. I got back to the States.

I started singing when I got back to the States more. But as a kid, I was just, I was exposed to all this music. And I don't, and in my band, there's hints of the sort of Indian influence in the music. Because then I grew up in the U.S. And then I loved R.E.M. and the Beatles and the police and the cure and the smits and Depeche Mode and you know and then I also had this love for Indian music and I grew up singing Indian music my mom would be like every Sunday we'd go to Temple and on this on the night before she would write these lyrics out and she's like you're going to sing this song in front of a hundred aunties and uncles and Temple tomorrow and as a nervous wreck I would go and sing in front of all these aunties and uncles every Sunday from age seven so I was an Indian singer and singing Indian music and then I also loved all this other Western music. So all that stuff became part of my, the way I wrote music with my band, somewhere in between, sat somewhere

between. And in my scores, it never entered my scores ever. Okay. It was always like, I kept it very separate. I didn't want to be like known to be like, just because I'm Indian, that's all I know. Right. So I never did that. But then on this show, the first episode was not very Indian. Second episode wasn't very Indian, but it was episode 13. Season one, episode 13, the one that you guys just aired or whatever. We're just talking about the three sentences. Yeah, three sentences. Okay, yeah.

In that episode, our editor sent me the sequence of Jack's funeral. Oh. And it starts off with Chrissy on the sticks in that weight loss campus. Yes, yes, yes. And she's going, just banging those sticks. And all of a sudden, you cut to this minute and a half, minute and 45 second sequence back and forth of her playing the sticks. Her as a kid, she's looking at the size of her sweater. Yeah.

You see Jack doing like Vogue stuff with her. That's right. You cut back to Chrissy on the sticks. Yep. And then as that scene is getting more and more sort of like involved, like what's happening, what's happening, what's happening, what's happening? all of a sudden out of nowhere we flashed to jack's funeral right and what i'm getting also has no sound it's just silent not even dialogue except for you know the vogue stuff sure so we cuts the funeral and it's just nothing just like that and all of a sudden you see the teens

at the funeral you see the you see the you see jack's picture you see the urn yeah you're in this silence for like the next minute and you're like holy shit this is what i just saw this is like It's haunting. It's the most haunting scene to date of the show. And then it comes back to Chrissy just screaming her head off. Yeah, that guttural scream.

That gutterle scream, which was just so beautiful. Her performance was unreal in that. And Koch calls me, and he says, I think Sid, you can do something with Chrissy's beat, her percussion. Of those sticks that she's hitting in that weight loss camp.

Let that be a guide for you in some way. maybe work off that, maybe find a way to use the rhythms in it or figure something out. And in that moment, I picked up my guitar, I watched the scene, and I started playing. Sterling's our engineer right here. I love it. You like that positioning? Are you good? Is that good? Yeah, it seems right. Yeah, it seems like you approved. And I'm watching the picture, and I start playing this loop of

And I start singing mm-hmm Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. And this is basically like

this, that whole thing is a drone. It's real quick. I mean, say, I'm not changing, I'm not, yeah, go ahead, go ahead. No, you keep going. I'm not changing chords. Like, in Indian music, stuff sits on the tonic, which is sort of like a starting point. Yeah. And it's almost like it's what you return to in music.

Okay. You don't hear like Indian music, you don't hear big changes in the music. You just hear like loops of like a drone. So in my mind, okay, this is like an Indian drone. And I started singing uh-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-um. And then there's a change I made in the melody, which is the most Indian thing you could do. It's like deep and classical. So m-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's that. And then as I'm just jamming to this funeral, I, like, in my studio, you didn't hear it on the final recording as much, but I was like, this is so Indian, so daisy. So I was like,

ah, ah, ah, no, no, I started doing stuff like that, like riffing. And I was like, why am I going into this Indian place, all of a sudden, had nowhere. And so then the final melody, I started pulling some of the Indian stuff out because this is an NBC show, and I'm like, this can feel too weird on TV. So I went, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. It became the theme. And I saved that high sort of part

for the moment we see the funeral. Until then, it's just she's on the sticks. And then I'm like, Kotch told me find a way to get the rhythm of the sticks into it. And I'm like, this is just sticks hitting a wooden floor. I have a wooden table I'm recording on. And I start going, Wow.

It almost became like tublas. Indian tublas go do do do. That's how a tubble player plays. And I did that. You know, so that became this pulse underneath as if I was a tubla player but playing it on my wooden table. Because I didn't want it to get too Indian. I was like, we're not going to use.

tublas we're going to use the table yeah and i recorded this thing i remember that moment it was like there's times where you feel like you write something there's times i've done this with and i'm sure taylor you have felt that way and with your own music you guys are like is that when you write something that you think that you know and your heart is special like you want to listen to it over and over again sometimes there's like the ego kicks in a little bit and i remember when i wrote this i was just like this is different i feel really really good about this um and i sent it to dan to the picture and to our editor and i was like what do you think of this and dan was like he wrote back and he goes that was what do you say he goes that was transcendental or something oh yeah and he writes

something like that to me and he goes that's he's like that's he's like you just knocked it out of the park that's it and i was like i remember asking i was like is this too indian yeah and he goes no it's perfect and i was like even though i know this is on nbc playing you know like it's like a we're not as like this is like do i have the liberty to explore like this and go there and dan's like don't touch a thing he goes from and and he remember him saying he goes what you did in this episode from that point on it changed the sound of the show because it was like before then most The score was like, I can't remember where it. It was like, a lot of it was very Joni Mitchell-esque.

Yeah. Sure. Also beautiful, but like. Yeah. It was that vibe. Right. Right. But then all of a sudden it became, you know. And it became.

became this other thing. Yeah. And we found the sort of voice. Like, I was able to then be the most artistic version of myself in the score. And it was Dan just being like, no, keep that's it. It became the emotional anchor. Of the show. Yeah.

That. And then, yeah. You're just playing it now. I'm like, I could weep. It's just like there's something about it that, like, you're right. It's like you feel safe, but you're like, this feels familiar, but yet totally new. Yeah. I don't know. It's just brilliant.

There's an interesting lesson as I'm listening to you talk about it, Sid, in terms of like, you know what, like, I want something to not be too much. And, like, I think artistically, we've all gotten sort of direction that you have to make proactive choices, meaning like, what is it that you want to do versus what is it that you don't want to do? Because it's easier to lean into what you want. rather than to try to fight against what you don't. And as a person of color, I have this sort of idea is like, can I really do me? Can I be the fullest version of myself?

Or do I have to sort of like temper who I am so that I can be, you know, more palatable to other people's sort of palettes, what have you? And then what you come to realize, like as I'm just listening to it, But is it like, when you are the fullness of you, people meet you where you are. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, because it's honest.

Like, it's like, it doesn't matter if it's Indian, African, Irish, Italian. Like, when it's honest, everybody feels that shit. Yeah. And on a creative level, you've just talked about this in recent episodes, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, breakdown scene where you had externalized a bunch of this stuff and Ken Olin came to you and said no it's here right it's right here yep and there's something that you just did for us with that song where you were externalizing and moving and there was all this movement in the vocal and then you brought it here and you focused it down to these notes and it there's something about it the song is still so full but it leaves room for other notes for the for the audience, for the listener, to, to, it allows, it allows the listener to feel without telling them how to feel. And I appreciate you saying that.

I think for me, too, when you talked, you said before about you see things dry and the show when you watch stuff dry and like, it's not working, like maybe to you, but I saw that scene dry. And I got to tell you, even with no music, I was already feeling it. It was already there for me. And so it also allowed me to write something that wasn't trying to manufacture emotion. Yeah. Like I wasn't like, oh, funeral, it could come sad music.

Right. And almost like this music is almost not even sad. It's almost heroic or something. It's triumphant. Yeah, it is. It is triumphant. And I was like trying to figure out like what it was. And Dan, I talk about this about what inspires me on the show.

And it goes back to what I learned from Glenn, John, and Dan on the pilot, which is scoring to the subtext of why these characters are here. And then this moment made me realize, like, well, why is this show even here? And I remember, like, you know, Dan lost his mom younger than, he lost his mom much, much younger than he ever should have. and I realized in that moment that I was like he is trying to pay respect to his mother in some way in the show and I'd never felt that before

and for some reason and I was like and all of a sudden I was like am I writing this score for these characters or am I writing the score also like to like help my friend heal in some way it started going in that place for me and it was like the most meta experience I've ever had working on anything And that sort of became the sort of vibe of the show for me on all the themes as we move forward.

I was like, you know, this is Dan, this is Dan sort of paying like Jack. In that moment, I was like Jack is his mom to him. But what you find out later on is, you know, the real hero is the mom at the end of all of it, which is brilliant, brilliance of Dan all along. So for me, this moment made me realize that I could score. to why Dan even put these characters here in the first place. And so it allowed it to be deep in that way. And it was such a, and I can't tell you, like,

I've never worked on anything in my life like this, where I just, I woke up in the morning and I would, like, live and breathe the show. And I'm like, I miss it so much. But it was like this sort of ability to connect to you guys, to Dan in this way. It's just magical. It's so meta to deal to feel that connection.

Are there pieces of school? that you feel most connected to that resonate with you or that were hardest to get to or I'm just curious like what your journey was like stepping back and looking like from a macro point of view of like oh gosh you know Jack's theme or the theme that was in the painting episode that then comes back around in the finale like there are certain pieces of score that like I associate Kevin's like that number. one that score like there are certain things that I just remember and are so visceral and I'm curious if you have any of those same kinds of connections or like ways of you know stories about getting to a piece of score that you feel like most proud of or yeah I mean it was it was in the pilot I remember Dan asked me see this is the thing we talked about this before a little bit Dan has these requests sometimes and and at the time you're like is this a futile thing Is this like, what am I wasting?

Like, why am I doing this right now? And he's got a purpose behind some of the stuff. Like, it's, it's like when you would go into the writer's room, I'd go in the writer's room. You guys obviously must have been in the writer's room multiple times. And you would just see, I remember going in, like, I went in once, and they interviewed me, and they wanted to talk to me about my story, and we just talked. And they were, like, you know, index cards everywhere or post-its everywhere of, like, just the map of the whole series. The timeline, yeah.

And you're like, oh my gosh, is this a mystery? Like, what is this? It's like, there's clues everywhere, and that's what the show in many ways was. Yeah, it is a mystery. It's a mystery, which is the haunting part about the whole show. And I remember in the pilot, Dan asking me to replace the Sufian Stevens song.

And he was like, we had this Sufian Steven song. Remember I told him he was like, we're going to use Sufian Stevens, that song, Death with Dignity. And he's like, can you replace him? replace it. Can you write something there? And I wrote like an eight minute piece of music, which is so long. It was like a long sequence. Because the song was like doubled up. It was a long sequence. And and then Glenn and John were like, oh, we're going to keep, we're going to stick to

the song. And I was just like, oh my gosh. And I was like, I just spent like two days, three days and whatever I wrote on it. And I was like, and then that piece of music ended up becoming the Kevin painting theme. Wow. Wow. Wow. That with the piano. Yeah. Oh, God, love it. And then that ended up becoming the very final piece of music in series. Yeah.

Over the very final sequence and the final episode. Are you serious, man? It was used just twice in series. It was using Kevin's painting and then used again at the very end. That was it, the theme. But I had done the legwork back in the pilot days. That's crazy. And then I remember watching the finale with,

and I remember watching the finale with Julie, our editor, we were working on it. And we both said at that moment, like, what if we brought the Kevin painting theme about how we're all connected back in for the ending of that? So that was the hardest piece I ever had to write because it was so long. And then it wasn't used.

And I was like, oh, man. What am I going to do with this? Yeah, and then Dan had it all mapped out. All mapped out. Same thing with the main theme at the end. end of them at the in the ending credits yeah well the main how did you come to the because it's one of my most bad do do do do do da do da like how did you I'm trying remember the price of core yeah do that I even go into his house to like work on

that he's like you have to play these notes I didn't play the piano at all so it helped that I played badly or what have you and then it was just so much fun I tried to rage it out of my register, try to go into the foster, because I was like, he's not a good singer. So maybe if he just tries to, like, give his Maxwell version of it, it would sound pretty good. And it was the most delightful experience.

And you're so sweet and kind of patience. He's like, no, it's OK. You're just going to put these here. Da-da-da-da. Shows it to me or whatnot. I'm like, I'll know how to do that. And he's like, no, we'll just go through it step by step. At your house, your kids are upstairs with your wife and whatnot,

down doing our thing. You're so gentle with it. And you've been doing it. your whole life or whatnot, like, the music is a part of you. Like, it almost feels like it, I know it doesn't, but it almost feels like you can speak through your instrument as easily, if not more so, than with words. Yeah, 100%.

This is an interesting, maybe it's an interesting segue into what seems, there seems to be three segments for music in our show, right? There's score, there's music direction, which would be the collection of Suffian Stephen's songs and things like that. And then there's original songwriting, which you did quite a bit of on this show, that includes the seed of this theme that we're talking about. And it gets planted. You kind of play it on the piano at some point, right? I do, like, early on in that, at that episode that Sterling sings the song in, like, episode six.

Right, you're on the upright plan. Sterling sings it. And it, of course, is the end credits theme for every episode. And then we can... Was it the... Did it come in in the pilot? I don't think it was there at the pilot. It may not have been there in the pilot.

It might have been starting episode two. I can't remember how we end. Oh, the pilot had the... Oh, my God, the Labysafri song. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Watch me one. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. And so we can talk about that theme

as it evolves into what it became as we talk about some of the other original songs that you wrote. I mean, I mean, historic, epic songs that were written for this show specifically, but maybe we can start there with the theme. If we start, I just want to, so Mandy, this is season six. We're not quite sure where Rebecca's sort of faculties are

at Kate's wedding and whatnot, but she's supposed to sing the song and whatnot, and she's having episodes that are happening throughout and we're just wondering, like, is she okay? and she sits down to the piano to sing the song. Do you play, too? Did you play? I mean, played. But like for most of us, I think you did it in rehearsal,

and then you did it live. And for most of us, I don't know if you heard it before, we're hearing it first at the rehearsal. Camera's not on, everything's just chilling. But Mandy, because she's focused, man. She gets down and she's like just starts doing it. it the way that she's going to do it on a day. Everybody, we all looked at each other, like, guys, what just happened?

Like, my face was so wet. Makeup was so jacked up. I was like, I'm not supposed to be messing this stuff up yet. But because that kernel had been germinating for six years, yeah. I was like, y'all took this song, put it in her mouth with lyrics to it. Yeah. Oh. So we come to find out that the theme is the theme

for a reason. Yeah. And it is because it is this song called. The Forever Now. Yeah. But the thing is, I'd like to think there was a plan all along that one day it would become this. And I don't know what Dan had envisioned if he knew.

And I mean, I think Dan had a lot of the series mapped out early on. Yeah. But I don't think in that moment, when he's writing the pilot script, he's like, okay. And then. Rebecca's going to sing the Forever Now. Right, so this is the beauty of it. The reverse engineering of itself is magic. And that's what's the magic of the show is that we allowed sort of these ideas, whatever they may be.

Like Dan allows the creativity to sort of like to blossom in his own sort of way. Do your thing. Do your thing. Do your thing. And we will find ways to, they will find another, they'll have a purpose later on in some way. They work out in their own sort of way. It's just there's so much trust involved in the whole process. And then it was an organic thing that built over time. So I remember first in how I wrote that theme. Amy and I, my wife, Amy, we'd gone away on a trip. I forgot where we were, so Mexico or somewhere. And I brought my guitar with me.

This is back in the day when I would actually bring my guitar on vacation with me. Not anymore? Not anymore? With the kids, it just stops. I believe. So much stuff stops. and this is right when we got this right when the show got picked up to series

I was sitting on the beach and I played this thing over and over again With this guitar? With this guitar. Give the little anecdote about what this guitar is for, it's so fascinating to two people who are listening right now. Right before this got picked up to series

I was in Vermont. My wife is from Vermont and we went into some like antique store. Got some syrup. Got some syrup. At the cash red. Yeah, at the cash register, yeah, of course. It's everywhere.

Different grade options. Dark light. Dark light, yeah, yeah. I always would look for instruments at any of these places because inevitably somebody leaves something that they think is like crappy, or it probably is, and it's for sale. And I see this guitar, the one I'm holding right now, it's a silver tone, and it was on sale for like $25.

bucks yeah it's a 25 or 50 somewhere around there I think it was actually no sorry it was 50 and and it was like beaten up and if you look if I turn this around yeah if you see there's a crack on the back okay there's a crack here straight up the back and this is not it's not in good shape and I started playing it and I was like this has got a vibe and I like the vibe of it and I was like okay I'm just going to keep this and I get it it's like a cheap guitar and this ended up becoming the guitar for the entire show, for the score. Because it just had these, these strings that had not been changed for 10 years, and I still haven't changed these strings.

These strings are the original strings from when I bought the guitar. No way. So now they're probably like 16, 17 years old. And that's the, that dead sound of the strings is coming from those same strings. I'm not changed these strings once. Wow. So I brought this with me to our trip to Mexico. Yeah.

And I remember as a joke, I was always like, I grew up on like those like 80s theme songs. Yeah. You know? We all did, right? Hell yeah. And I remember just sitting there as a joke and be like, the first thing that came to me was uh-da-da-da-down, this is us. this is us i would do this a joke and amy would be like shut up and i was like as a joke i'm like

can you imagine like if this is like we go straight up like you know all of a sudden it's like you see you guys that freeze frame and can you please just do that one more time but just saying that was us okay so we have the audio yeah no that was us da-da-da-da-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-t that was us so it actually started off as a joke I was just sitting and I was like this had also I tune this guitar in a way

this is not standard tuning this is this is not your normal sort of E-A-D-G whatever B-E but this is in a Nick Drake Joni Mitchell-ish tuning, open tuning. So that's why it has this like ring that is like the voicings are different than you would normally hear. And because in my mind, I was also trying to think

about Joni Mitchell. I was thinking about Nick Drake, Sufant Stevens, all these artists were... For any musical people listening, what is the tuning? I don't even know. Great. Yeah. So take that musical people listening.

I don't even know. He was tuning the guitar before we got to the episode. And he's like, break. That's all was. Here are the notes. If somebody wants to steal, I'm go. That's it. Beautiful. More that was us after this short break. Back to school shopping as a kid, getting like those photos, like back to school photos, going to two days at football practice. Like September sort of represents the new beginning,

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That's 20% off your first order when you shop better hydration today using promo code TW at LiquidIV.com. So this is like, I just started This is like, I just started This is us That's what I kept it over and over again for like three days. And I was like, and I've recorded it on my phone. I remember thinking this was something.

And I sent it to Dan, but not with the, this is a... Sure, sure, sure. You kept that off. I kept that off, because I was like, he's going to be like, what are you doing? And then, and he's like, that's great. He goes, that's something. I don't know what it is, but he's like, just go finish it. And then I finished it.

I had some piano to it. There was a cellist that came and played the... Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And then that became our ending credits theme, season one. And then, I don't know what it is, but Dan, his whole film, the way he, as a filmmaker and music, he's so good with the two. You know, he's so good with, like, the feel of music against picture, always. And so he would say to me, he's like, hey, that theme for the end credits, what if you tried doing a version of that here when, when Randall is at the driving range playing golf.

Didn't that happen with young Randall one point and with you? And I was like, okay. And I wouldn't question it. I wouldn't be like, well, why? I was like, okay, well, this is one of the themes that is becoming sort of a central connecting theme for the show, one of them. And so we'd start just folding it in different places. And then year after year, it found its use in another spot. another spot just you know then the kids are putting when uh jack is putting the the car seats in

the car yeah it becomes the music for the montage of that okay so it's like this connective theme for the family all of a sudden every time and then you're like oh yeah this is and then you do it enough this is us if you do it enough yes that it becomes the connected theme for the family over and over again so then cut all the way to season six dan says to me well there's a history of how we got there first before. So let's go back. But your question was on the original songs, and we'll get to season six.

So in season one, the Memphis episode comes up. And Dan calls me, Dan Glenn and John, directing that episode, one of the best episodes series. I still think it's just incredible filmmaking to this day in that episode. And Dan says, can you write, or Glenn and John actually call me, Like, can you write a Stax Records B-side, like a song, like a soul tune,

Otis Redding-esque thing? Yeah. For us. And it was probably because they're like, because I know there must have been other people they were thinking of because we didn't, we didn't, had not touched original songs after the show. And I think at one point there might have been a conversation of John Legend, possibly coming in and writing the song.

Okay. Or people like that they were going on and to reach out to who were like, who were probably the right people to write the song. Sure. Because they're incredible songwriters and would understand soul in a different way. And they also went to college with Dan Fogelman. In a different, right, right, yes. And it's all about authenticity, right?

And so that would be, and so I remember the call to me, I was just like, I can't write a Stax Records B. This is like not my wheelhouse. But I knew that I could find melody. I knew it could write a melody, and I knew it could get some ideas across. Sure. And I remember just putting myself in that place of, like, doors are closed in my studio. And I'm just like, you know, we can always come back to this.

I started doing stuff like that by myself. Embarrassingly, thinking of this idea of me pretending I was some soul singer and going that place. And it sounded terrible, like I probably just did. And it wasn't right. And then I called my friend Chris Pierce, who is an incredible singer-songwriter. I mean, the guy sounds like Otis Redding. And did you meet? You must have met Chris in that process.

Because I was a big guy, right? Because Chris filmed. He's in the episode. Yeah. He's one of the musicians. He's on stage. He's on stage. So Chris and I got together.

And I said, Chris, I have this idea. And the basic idea was like, well, this. don't you cry we're gonna be all right da da da da da da da da when you get there tonight you're not alone i'm always here with you with just a little line melody and then chris and i sat together and within like an hour we just mapped out the song and chris sang it and when he sang it it was like i mean he sounds like oh just reading when he sings i mean like it was just gorgeous voice. And I recorded, I filmed Chris singing on guitar, and I sent that to Glenn and John and Dan, and they were just like, oh my gosh. And talk about authenticity too and why it's important

in any of the work we do. It was like, just because I was handed the gig to write the song and may have written some pieces of it, it didn't make it right just yet. I needed Chris to come in, co-write it with me, and make it right. And he was like, he brought the authenticity that he needed. He's a soul singer. It had to be real because this song took place in Memphis. What year were we probably? 70? Something like that.

Yeah, that sounds right. This was something that was being performed on stage by the amazing Brian Tyreehan. That's right. And that's when the song took off. Because then Brian came in and sang it. And Brian came in, so Brian came in jammed with me and Chris in our studio

in my home studio. He came over and we started teaching Brian the song. And Brian just, like, ignored some of the ideas that we had and he just started singing it the way that he was feeling it. Yeah. And it was like, oh, my gosh, he sounded like, I don't know if you listen to like Teddy Pendergrass. Oh, yeah.

Brian sounds like Teddy Pendergrass. Totally. Totally. Yeah. 100%. And it was like it became even cooler. It was like, couldn't. I was like, I was like, this is, that's an even a more interesting choice than an

Otis Redding Tedder's sound. I was like, because it's deeper in that. It's a deeper cut. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? It's like, not an artist that we may have heard of him, but not many people have the same appreciation, right? And that became its own beautiful thing because we went into a recording studio then to

record the song, because, you know, when you're performing this stuff in the scene, sometimes you have to sort of play to track. Like, there's another band's not actually playing in the scene. Brian may not actually be singing. That was sort of the thought when we went in. But Dan and I talked about it, and we said, let's have Brian really sing it live on set because there's just something visceral about his voice, and the guy's such an incredible artist.

Let his artistry shine. We went into the recording studio to pre-record it, and we recorded it to keep it pure. We recorded it to tape. We didn't record it to computer. We recorded it to actual old reel, mixed it to an old, like, half-inch tape. Wow. It's just so it had that stamp of like an old tune. And at that point, I was like, this is awesome.

The studio's giving us the, like, because the studio was like, Sid, you can just record this at home on your, and I was like, no, we're going to make a Stax record B-side. Let's do it to tape, live in the room, band in the room. Like, let's not do, let's record it like they would have recorded. And that started this whole trend in sort of like the original songs for the show. Because in that episode was such a great episode. Brian was incredible in that episode. You were incredible an episode. I mean, it was just magic.

Ron. Oh, my gosh. And at the season one party for This Is Us, I remember. My band was performing some of these songs. And Chris, I think, may have gone up and performed that song. And afterwards, I see Mandy by the bar next to Taylor, Goldsmith. And I went up to him and I was like, hey, I was like, I'm your biggest fan.

Because Dawes is honestly one of my favorite bands of the last I don't know, 15 years. Easily. Like, I was listening to Dawes when we were in Jersey City. My parents' bass. Brooklyn. Brooklyn. Sorry. Brooklyn. Yeah.

And so I was just such a fan. And then he said something to me. He goes, hey, man, if you ever want to collaborate on anything at some point, let me know. And I couldn't believe that he... I couldn't believe that. This guy asked me that. Because I think Taylor is one of the best songwriters of our generation.

I don't say that easily. It's like he's a lyrically gifted musician, his playing, his writing, everything. It's just incredible. It connects on a very cool, for me, it like hits me in a place. And then, as we got into the future seasons, what was the next one for it?

No, it was Invisible Ink. Invisible Ink in Season 3. Yeah. So Mandy's character, Rebecca was going to, Why don't you set up what your character was doing? Yeah. Rebecca obviously always wanted to be a singer in the vein of Joni Mitchell. And she comes out to Los Angeles with Jack to like kind of the road trip.

The road trip to like drop off her demo tape, have a meeting, perform in front of like this A&R person. Obviously it doesn't go her way. But she has this beautiful song. And he asks you to sing the song in the car. He does afterwards. After the meeting doesn't go well. and I have to face rejection. He asked me to sing it in the car,

and it's kind of like the first time you see... Jack Breakdown. Yeah, Jack, have any sort of, like, real emotion. I mean, his emotion is an older man, but as a young person, I think it, like, it cracks something open in him and for their relationship specifically. Yeah.

Ken Olin episode, too. Yeah, Ken Olin episode. Yeah. That was a great one. It was such a beautiful song, too. I love that song. All of the original songs that you wrote, Because then for season four, the opening of season four, you wrote mesmerized.

Oh, Memorized. Memorized. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. With Taylor again. So Taylor and I wrote that song together. And it just started this beautiful collaboration between me and Taylor. How many songs do you guys do together for the show? I think three, right?

Three. We did that. We did Memorized. Yeah. Which was Future Jack, right? Young Jack, your son, Jack. Your son, Jack. Yeah.

His song, he needed it. pop star. That's right. And we needed to write a song that he performs on stage. Oh my God. Which they recorded at the Greek? We recorded at the Greek theater in the middle of a Chicago show. That's right. Chicago gave us a break for 15 minutes. And we got up there and we pumped the song after we recorded it into the speakers in front of whatever, five, six thousand people. How many people did that hold? A lot of people. You didn't know that, Sterling? No! Yeah, yeah, live. And they were instructed to treat it like a hit song. And they didn't have to try too hard because the song was so great and everybody was just like jamming yeah this like

by the second course they were singing along with it yeah yeah yeah never heard it before i mean they were like you know lighters lit in the ice yeah everything it was like it was a yeah and we so we actually recorded that song at a massive concert and got that footage yeah so what you're seeing is actually a proper concert oh wow that lit the making of a hit song in front of an audience of people, like a debut. Right. And going back to Taylor for a second, too, on the very first song we wrote together, I remember I got Dan called and said,

can you write this song, Joni-Mitchellie type of song? And I was like, okay, then I can just get on, I sort of had some melodic idea, some general idea of what it could be, but just very, very nothing. For anybody who doesn't know, Taylor is Mandy's husband. Just want to make sure. Oh, yeah, sorry, we should have said it. Just make sure.

So right away, knowing what the story was, and this was going to be Rebecca and her journey. I remember thinking, in my head, I was like, Taylor Goldsmith said he wants to work with me at something. And I called Taylor, and I was like, can we do this? Because also in my mind, too, I thought he's also seen at home with you, the progression of your character, you working on the character, has seen the life of the character.

So he knows not just you, but he also knows Rebecca Pearson in an interesting way through you. And I think that perspective lyrically would have been pretty powerful. Because you used to force him to watch all the episodes over and over and over and over. He would read lines. He would be Jack and you would be Rebecca.

And you would say, that's not how Jack would do it. Jack would, yeah, right. Be more like Jack. Right. Close your mouth. See it again. Do you see? Do you see what Jack said there?

Do you see? Yeah. Try that next time. Taylor's voguing at home. But that became this start of this very special relationship between me and Taylor. And then we wrote, memorized together. And then for season six, when we bring the, this is a song into Rebecca Pearson's performance. Dan then said to me, Dan's like, can you take that end title theme and make that into a song now?

And I was like, going to put words to it in my head? The other words were. This is us. Which is technically temp music. And now you're chasing that temp music. I've got to get that lyric out of my head. It's so true. That's so true.

Was it hard to lose, like, that thing? Or would the collaboration with Taylor sort of helped to introduce, like, a new way in? Well, the easy thing was there was that, like, Taylor wrote those words. And so it was like he just took the theme. I had sort of, I started sketching out on. piano just what like the form of this thing would melodically what it could be yeah um and then he's like let me just let me just write some stuff lyrically and because it also took the pressure off me because i'd been living in this theme for so long yeah it's a very weird thing as a songwriter

too and you've probably experienced this too right like if you have a melody i always write lyrics last when my band always wrote lyrics last okay unless i had something meaningful i thought i had to say which was very rare and so i would come i always think melodically first yeah and and Then I'm trying to, like, you know, put a square peg in a circular hole and trying to get the right lyric to match that melody. And it's frustrating. But here, I was like, Taylor, you handle it. Like, you can, I don't want to deal with the frustration of, like,

and also the guy's a lyrical genius. So he went, he's like, let me just come up with some ideas. And then he gave those lyrics back to me and we sat together. And then we amended the melody where it made sense to sing it in the way that his words were. And then, and then obviously Mandy then. crushed it. Didn't that song hit like on like

streaming? He was like number one on iTunes or something crazy like that. How crazy? This is fucking awesome. No, it was crazy. It was crazy. I mean that's just a testament to the power of the show.

It was like and it's obviously it's a beautiful song but like I think people were just so moved by the show sort of reaching its conclusion and the genius of bringing this theme song that everybody knew so well and like now is this fully flesh

out version of a song. I think it had that sort of same feeling at the end of the pilot when that Lobby Safri song comes on and you feel like the rug has been pulled from under you a little bit and the surprises of the show. Even that's like, this is more of like a meta surprise, but when you're on piano

and you, in the break of the song, in the instrumental section, your character is playing da-da-da-da-da-da-de-ting. I remember people reaching out on social media or like fans of the show afterwards saying when that came in that where people were like, oh my gosh, we've been hearing this for six seasons

at the end of every episode, oh my God, like that had, it had that impact, which is cool. Like, you know, as long as you don't think about it enough, it makes sense. That's right. No, it makes total sense. Like, why would that be in there, but it's, but it's to spend a little disbelief. No, but you had introduced it her, like you said in the episode where it's for Career Day, she's playing it on the piano at the beginning. And so you have Randall saying, like, you know, I might not be musical, but like I, I,

I have this one tune that I remember that he sort of puts in to that thing. So it makes- Right. It's tied to that piano, tied to the childhood piano. It's a melody. And in some ways, it's like, and then I think about my relationship to the show, my family story. I felt like my story in the show in terms of what I was able to bring to it. I feel like I could bring my family story and my own past into the show in such a fun, interesting way. Yeah.

And even that idea of melodies being passed down generation to generation. My mom singing me things on the cassette tape, those melodies remaining in my head, and I teach them to my kids, or whatever that is, that happened kind of with that melody. Yeah. Right? This is a perfect transition because you not only scored the show, you not only wrote original songs for the show, but original songs of yours. But you also have a makeup line coming out. You also have a makeup line.

Right now, if you go to That Was Us.com. Can you bet? Segway. For 20% off, the Kozla lip balm. Costa cards. We have like the top cards. We got the Kozla cards. You also, I want to say in like the first three or four episodes, had one of your original songs featured as part of the musical direction of the show.

What episode was that? 12. Oh, was in 12? It was the end of 12. Oh, wow. I thought it was earlier than that. I think it was 12. Was that the episode where we see Jack's, we see the footage from Jack's camera?

The Super 8 footage. Yes. You're right, it plays over that. Yeah. And so this is from the record that you mentioned earlier, Aerogram. Yeah. And it is a concept album, you said. And this song is about those cassettes that your mom used to send you.

Yes. Would you play that song for us? Let me get the other guitar out. Sterling's your engineer today. Sterling's our roadie engineer. This is so special. This record, everyone should go out. and listen to this record. This is one of my favorite records, and I've told Sid this before, and he's eschewed the compliment. But this record, it sounds like a long-lost Beatles record. It sounds like if the Beatles had made it to the 90s, that this is what they would have sounded like. The record is epic, and I play it for my kids, and this song is on Bears playlist. And he listens to it all the time, and I love this song.

I love this. I love this. Oh, that's very sweet. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, I'll do it. Go for it. So the context of the use of where we use this song was in that episode, Rebecca's, she's coming to terms with her being about to be a mom. And she doesn't think she'll be a great mom.

Remember there's that moment? You're like, am I going to be a good mom? And then the end of the episode, we start seeing this footage, Super 8 footage from, Jack's camera. I think you have the slightly older versions of the kids and you're seeing him filming you when you were pregnant.

All around that time you were having these issues conflict of like, am I going to be a good mom? And so then in the edit, I think Julia Grove, one of our amazing editors, we decided to just put this song in just to see what it did because this was also the song

this was that that song about the cassette that tape that my mom sent to me when I was a kid with her voice on it. And it was always like, my parents always felt my mom especially, even to this day, regret sending me back to India because she was like, we came to this country to sort of build a life for ourselves. And in that process, sent our newborn child back to India. And when you came back from India, you didn't even recognize us.

You didn't want to be, like, I was mad with my mom when I came back. And so this song was also me. tell my mom it's okay. Mm-hmm. All right. If I missed, if I missed took the sun for mango, I'd fly up there and reach for it too. It's the story of something older and bigger. than me and you and you told it in a letter in the form of an evergreen cassette

and I played it in the morning till after the sun would set see mother I believe that Half of everything I hear is true between you and me, I believe the anecdotes too. In the veranda, in the midnight heat, cousins and I would wait for the rains, singing songs about America and then the first drops came. So don't worry, even though you were oceans and continents swayed. I heard evergreen hits, lullibis and everything you had to say. say. See, Mother, I believe that half of everything I hear is true. Between you and me,

I believe the anecdotes too, if they get you through. If they get you through, if you If time, time could be bent with the drop of a tear, you'd see it rained in our house for a year. This is the sound of the beating you'd hear. On the tapes, you've taped over all of our hopes and our fears, the open, Miranda's been flooding for years, I always hope that I'd see you here. But time Time can't be bent with the drop of a tear And though you say you missed out all of those years

Your voice on the tapes always kept us near See mother I believe that half of everything I hear is true between you and me I believe in everything you do Oh Ladies and gentlemen, Sid Kosla, the composer for This Is Us

Sid, your voice Thank you Just takes me there every time my goodness it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's beyond the voice it's your soul yeah for sure your soul comes through your artistry and um you're just a dope-ass dude bro thank you you know that this is true it means a lot coming from you guys what else is there to say what time before we let you go you're working on anything right now whether on your own music or on another show i know one show you work now um that you want to talk about

I'm scoring a show with an Academy nominated actor named Sterling K. Brown. Look out for that show. Called Paradise. Wow. It's phenomenal. It's a cool show. Yeah. Another Dan Fulgeman project.

Yeah. It's Sterling in a way you've never seen him before. It's pretty... Fully nude. It is a... From the back. Fully nude. It is a...

It's true. It's... Listen. Streaming. All bets are off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did it on this as us. Yeah, right. We had fullback.

Right. Full back, yeah. It's a political thriller. I'm really proud of the work on it. I'm proud of what this guy's doing, part of the show. Yeah, that only merges in the building also. Oh, just that? About to do, season four just came out.

Just a couple hit songs. Yeah. Just a couple of hit shows. And that's it. Sit, would you look at that camera over there and just say that was us? That was us. That Was Us is filmed at The Crow and produced by Rabbit Grinn Productions and Sarah Warehahn, music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith.