That Was Us - The Next Generation of Pearsons | "In The Room" with Writer Vera Herbert (508)

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re breaking down This Is Us Season 5, Episode 8: “In The Room.” In this episode recap: * Randall and Beth FaceTime Madison while waiting for updates on Kevin * Kevin arrives at the hospital and tells Madison his family is his priority * Kate and Toby navigate the emotional realities of adoption and their relationship with Ellie, the birth mother * Rebecca and Miguel open up about life after Jack’s death * Esther and Nasir’s story reveals the invention of the Discrete Cosine Transform, the technology behind video calls like FaceTime Plus, Mandy Moore, Chris Sullivan, and Sterling K. Brown discuss: * Working with guest stars like Michael O’Neill * The Mandy moment that sent Chris into a laughing fit * Why partner vacations without kids are so important And writer Vera Herbert joins to talk about: * Her unconventional path into Hollywood * Writers’ room culture * Writing personal grief into This Is Us * The importance of thoughtful adoption representation" That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://Betterhelp.com/twu today to get 10% off your first month. - Post jobs for free at https://www.ziprecruiter.com/twu ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:42 Discussion 01:04:50 Interview 01:34:29 Outro Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards About Headgum: Headgum is an LA & NY-based podcast network creating premium podcasts with the funniest, most engaging voices in comedy to achieve one goal: Making our audience and ourselves laugh. Listen to our shows at https://www.headgum.com. » SUBSCRIBE to Headgum: https://www.youtube.com/c/HeadGum?sub_confirmation=1 » FOLLOW us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/headgum » FOLLOW us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/headgum/ » FOLLOW us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@headgum Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a headgum podcast. On today's episode of That Was Us, we are diving into season five, episode eight, in the room. Kevin and Madison prepare to welcome their twins. Kate and Toby face the emotional realities of adoption. And Rebecca and Miguel open up to each other about life after Jack's death. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. What's going on, Maddie?

We talked about 507 last week. We're in the 508, and so we're expecting some babies. to be born here soon. Lots of babies. Lots of babies. Multiple babies and multiple places. Twins, pro brother. We got a daughter from sister. In TV land, this is insanity. Yeah. Like, to have pets or animals in a show is considered a burden on production. And this show just keeps adding them by the multiples. Bring the puppies, bring the babies, bring them all. Dan would love to complain about it. Like, oh my gosh, everything's crazy. We're like, dude, you be writing this shit.

You're in control. Yeah. This is your ship. We're all aboard. Just trying to get to people what they want. That's all they doing. Who wants to show? What storyline? This episode starts out in an interesting way in the way that our series tends to do.

Oh, yes. I can't wait to talk about this. New people. Me too. And it's funny because my husband came in at the tail end of this episode and was like, what? I don't understand the connection I had to explain to him.

Moment and time, sir, moment and time. You can't jump in like in the middle of you. But also the moment and time that we were all living in, I think like really this episode spoke to that. So the episode starts out with an Albuquerque 19163 Welcome International Students. And we're like, okay. And there's this beautiful woman

and this sweet sort of nerdy, Indian man. He had glasses. He's reading a book sitting outside by himself. I don't want to gloss over the smoke show. No, no, gorgeous. Both of them. Yeah, both of them were beautiful. I was like, this is an attractive. This was an Argentinian Indian connection that I was like, I stand for this. Oh yeah, I stand hard for both of them. He's into computer engineering, you know, and she's kind of like, he's reading a book on computer engineering, right? And he's, correct. She's basically questioning, like, what are you doing out here?

What is so interesting? Why are you reading? Like, she's fiery and a delight. Yeah. And he tries to explain what he's working on, what he's studying, what he's thinking about. And she was like, I don't know about any of that, but I like the sound of your voice. I have no idea what you're talking about. But I know I love hearing you talk.

Girl, you better. I like a way you talk. Yeah, it was hot. I was like, all right, I'll marry you. Yeah, yeah, totally. Let's get married until the next time they see us, we have a baby. What a sweet meet cute, for sure. And then the next time we see them, they are in fact in the hospital.

And she was just given birth to his son. Yeah, yeah. And then, wait, is there anything else that happens in that scene in particular? No, no, no, no. That's it, right? She's like, what are you doing, nerd? Got a light? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. They have the baby and then... The next time we see them, he's coming home late. Yep. And she's pissed. Yeah. And she basically is like, okay, if you're going to be spending all this time away from your

family. Yes. I need you to tell me, like, walk me through exactly what you're working on and why it is so important and why you are so excited. Because it is clear to us that he believes he's on the brink of something. Something huge. Yes. Something monumental. That's correct. More to come. We'll sort of end that, we'll hold that secret. I dig it. And Jack, and jump into Jack and Rebecca. Jack and Rebecca. Yeah. Going, wanting to go to the cabin. Planning family vacation. You know, Jack is gung-ho about, like, family trips. They're going to the cabin. Everyone's excited except the kids.

Right. They're at that age where they're like, the cabin's lame. We want to hang out with their friends. We don't want to be with mom and dad. Told you. I'm going. Oh, I'm horrified already. I don't.

We just, I have a hard time. Well, I don't have a hard time picturing it because even now at five and three, there are certain moments where I'm like, no, I don't want to go on this trip. Let's just stay here. It's easier. Let's stay here with them. I hear you. What do you say trips with kids are just different places, have snacks?

It's not a vacation. It's a relocation. It's a relocation. Let's pack up all this junk that we have here and move it to a different house. Yeah. Here's a question for you guys as we get into that sort of segues with the arc. Have you young parents had a vacation with just your significant other without your seed, without the children? Not since Lou was born.

Yeah. Not since Lou was born. Yeah, we took a nice little vacation a couple years ago before I was pregnant. Okay. When it was just the two boys. And then you created, like a 10-day one. We did not create a baby on that trip. We should have.

And ideally, yes, we should have. Like a 10-day trip. It was like, I remember when you told Rachel and I that you were going on this vacation and Rachel and I looked at each other with the deadest eyes. Like, what does that mean? Like, how you can do? How did we? figure out we were so envious and so jealous.

I still dream about that trip. I bet you do. I bet you do. It was great. It was ideal. That'll never happen again for a long time. You? I still dream about your trip.

You haven't done that, right? It took, it was like 11 years of parenthood before I think we took a trip without the kids. Wow. It was a long time. And I'll say I felt like it was too long. That's too long. I don't think it was too long because there's, you know, you have these feelings and we get into the feelings of guilt from being separated or whatnot,

but also the necessity to nourish each other in a way that's really difficult to do when the kids are there. Yep. You know what I'm saying? You? We've gone away for like a night. A night, two nights. Okay.

A few nights, but nothing. I think it's like it is really imperative. If one can, if there is... If you have the resources, it's your disposal. The way, you know, support to take care of the family at home, I think it is essential to have that connection. And if one can't go away for like, you know, a four or five days or whatever, just going for those like one nights or just a night away. A staycation somewhere is like, get a hotel with yourself.

It's so just to keep that connection. Like that is, we're just talking to friends about that the other day. Yeah, I feel like, yeah. Dead in the eyes. Dead in the eye. What are we doing with our life? That was like a big endeavor for us. You're like, take us with you.

Yeah. Pack us in your suitcase. Take us with you. That would have been so fun, by the way. We're good at traveling together. If we did that once, we got to get back on that. Okay. Because, like, you guys are fun to travel.

We could do that for sure. But on the flip side of it, we just had, I just ran into a friend who had a whole Japanese vacation planned and was like, yeah, we canceled it. Because the teenager was like so difficult. They just had a trip that was so difficult. They're like, we're not doing that again. Oh, interesting. Because he's in this place of like nothing's cool.

Yeah. Doesn't appreciate anything. Oh, yeah. And so it's like, well, then we're not spending all this money. To go to Japan. You're not going to appreciate or at least try to have fun. Yeah. I feel like.

Yeah. It's, I don't know. This is a small thing. The other day, I was asking Ryan if she wanted to go to church. Because I don't go every week, but I go a lot and I enjoy it, right? And she's like, yeah. Yeah. should. We should go to church. And then she goes, let's get the kids ready so we can all go. And I said,

never mind. Because I wanted to go to church with my wife. And like Sunday mornings, the kids hang out all the time by themselves. Like they'll sleep late, et cetera, et cetera. And the idea of like waiting for everybody to get ready and hearing them sort of complain about this and that. And I was like, not worth it. And you know what happened? I went by myself. It was awesome. Praise Jesus I will do this It's that kind of church Plus

You know what I'm talking about But like It's a good church It is a great church But it was like And she missed it Like I was like hey Perth Let's do

I want to go to church And she's like Yeah let's get them right And I was like No you missed it It's all good Let me go make this meditation service I see y'all living

You're disinvited You're uninvited Yeah But I'm just saying this Because there is So Rebecca points out as Jack is sort of him and honing and be like, no, this is what we're going to do. We want to go on a sleepover with our friends.

And you're like, yeah, man, can we conference? Let's have a little kibbets around the corner. Like, would it be so bad if we have like a little time to ourselves at the cabin? Like, make it a little romantic time, you know? And he's like, all right, all right, the sleepover train leaves at 8 o'clock in the morning. They go off to the cabin. And Rebecca's like, you know what we don't have to deal with? Rebecca, listing the things.

We don't have to deal with. What was Kate doing? What was she doing? Oh, recapping 902.1. I can't tell if it's a bad show or if Kate's just a terrible storyteller, which... It's... It's harsh. It's really hard.

I'm like, damn! You guys are just behind me, but like 90210 is high school. Yep. Love 90210. Yeah, it was a little before me. Yeah, a little before you. It was great times. Yeah.

We were saved by the bell. Yeah. That's as close as we got. I'm saved by the bell too. Yeah. Oh, gosh, man, Zach. Come on, that's my guy. Then the boys, I don't have to listen to the boys, arguing with each other.

Yeah, call each other butt munch. And you're just sort of like reveling in just sort of a little bit of peace that we get. And each time you say it, Jack's like, yeah, okay. Yeah, you could just tell he's like a little wounded every time. Yeah. Every time, you know. Also, the way it's written, like a little. little holier than thou.

Come on, Jack. Play along. I felt that way too. Yes, and. Was it like, yes, the Kate one was a little harsh, but also it's like, it's what we do. We have to let off a little steam with each other. Because I feel like I'm between both of you guys in this and in recognition of where he ultimately comes back to.

It is the idea that things are happening possibly for the last time. That's it. And because you guys, you as a couple, Jack and Rebecca, don't get to go through gradations, they all three hit it at the same time. You know what I'm saying? You don't get to go 16, 14, 12, I still got a little bit more time here.

Have you guys seen this trend video going around? Speaking of social media, we're talking about on the break. Remember we talked about somebody said the saddest thing where it's like, one day you'll pick up child for the last time and you won't know it. Yeah. So now parents are picking up grown-ass kids. I've seen this.

Picking up like 13-year-olds and like holding them and filming it and be like, this is the last time I'm gonna pick you up. God don't make me cry. But just knowing it and like, and like, I'm gonna like absorb this moment. And the kids letting it like doing it too. Like letting it be a thing. I think that's a great trip.

Oh my God. I'm gonna do that. Anyways, I just wanted you both. know today is the last time that I'm going to hold either of you. Let's get the camera. And the first and my time. You've held me all the time. HR, go to two.

There is. It reminds me of like, I don't know if you guys ever had this yourselves, but I'm a big kid at heart. And there'd be times when my mom and I would be grocery shopping late at night. And I'd be a mama, will you push me in the car? And I'm like 16, 17. We're in high school. I'm in high school.

She's like, yeah. Yeah, I push you in the car. Wait, would you get your legs? Try and get your legs in there. Couldn't fit. No, you just get in the car. You just get in the car. You just get in the car.

Yeah, sure, sure. And it was delightful. Yeah. Delightful. I still, I still, on a regular basis, will push the cart and jump up on it and ride it. Come on, bro. That's what the cart is for?

Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's like a little bit more. I'm too heavy now. I got to make sure to something in the cart. Okay. Counterbalance? Count of balance.

I got you. Pops that wheelie. And then it gets really embarrassing. Oh, God. More that was us after these words from our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Financial stress gang affects more than our bank accounts. It can take a serious toll on our mental health and relationships,

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Financial stress gang affects more than our bank accounts. It can take a serious toll on our mental health and relationships, with 88% of Americans feeling some form of financial stress at the start of 2026. I remember quite vividly living beneath the poverty line and really trying to find a way to take care of myself mentally, physically, spiritually, that was also cost effective. Right. Wanting to find someone who I could talk to, like sometimes it was just not an option for me because I didn't feel as if mental health was something that I could afford. And therapy is not about financial advice, but it is about managing that stress, the shame or anxiety that could come with it,

right? Therapy can help people unpack their relationship to money even. You know, build healthier coping strategies and feel, you know, just feel less alone in the process. Luckily, better help. They have quality therapists. They have a therapist match commitment. So if you don't get it right the first time, which a lot of people don't. Sure. Then you can switch for free. And there's tons of client reviews, I believe there's over 30,000 therapists. BetterHelp has the world's largest online therapy platform. It's served over 6 million people globally, and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for live sessions based on 1.7 million client reviews.

So when life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash TWU. That's better h-E-L-P dot com slash T-WU. As Jack is about to leave, they notice in the corner there's some water damage through the roof coming down into like a pile of like keepsakes for the kids. Yeah, that's like a box of stuff, et cetera. And so he's just sort of like tired of hearing you rag on the kids and everything. He's like, yeah, Beck, good one. I mean, he's really, also sabotaging himself.

Like, this is romantic weekend, bro. Get it together. Yes, and. Yeah, let it go. The kids aren't here. She's complaining about them. Let it go. We get it.

You're the best. Oh, Jack Berger. But the counterbalance is like, she's like, we can throw this crap away. Like, nobody's going to be credible Picasso or anything like that. But she sees that he's sort of. What are you going to be for these shitty kid artists we got? What are these finger paints? Ugh.

Why don't we even keep this? I would like to think that I did it with a little more grace of like, well, they're not going in the med. You did. Let's put it in this way. You both played it as written. It was just written a little harsh. But she clocks and he comes back and you're like actually trying to hang up the paintings and try to dry them out.

You know, it may not be perfect, but it's just. It'll be something. And then that's when so Jack goes into like, you know, like we're losing. Like we only have so much time left and they already think that we're not cool and they're doing their things and just trying to find this time to connect and do stuff. And you sort of encourage them. And it was an echo. Did anybody hear this 105 echo?

The painting. And you're talking about like, you know. Oh, it's all still there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Speak over because like I got a little something there. Yeah.

The painting, she talks about, you know, there's this one particular painting that in the present day, you kind of notice is hanging in the cabin. It's never been there before. But, spoiler alert. But Rebecca's like kind of clocking it. And she's explaining in the past that it's, you know, it's all of their handprints. And because it's all, it's been, you know, it's gotten wet from this leak. They're all kind of like bleeding together. She goes, you know, we're all still in there together, even if it doesn't look the same anymore.

Right. And you're right. That does kind of like hearken back to Kevin in the painting and the fact that like, yeah, it's all there always. Whether people are physically there or not physically there have passed on, like, all of it. It still matters. It was a bad painting. Now it's a terrible painting. But my, Jack, it's still a painting.

And it's a reminder to all. always be close and never miss a thing. Yes. There you go. That was, I think, the sort of resonant theme that kind of permeates the rest of the episode. Yeah. I could lay awake just to hear you breathe. Sing on it. Yeah.

You're right. It does. Yeah. He does it a lot. It's a real 90s. Let's do Katow. Let's do Cotovie. That was the end of...

That was it. The end of that one. Kate is down in San Diego with... What's our birth mother's name? Ellie. Ellie. Played by Annie funky. Played by Annie funky.

Annie got funky with it. She got funk in there. She was wonderful. Kate winds up sending like a text thread out to the family, just saying like, you know, she's not dilated. Labor updates, et cetera. And Tobias is like, no, no, no, no, no. Look. I know that the whole thing is happening and whatnot,

but like, I'm your man. Yeah, we're not group chat. If I don't get to be in the room or not, I need my own personal husband, father to be updates, please, and thank you. I love a group. It's so funny because, like, the day before this happened, this happened to me and Rachel. Yeah.

Where I got new information about my life. Yeah. On a group text. And I was like, mm-mm. Yep. And don't get me wrong, I love a group. I actually love a group text more than most. Yeah, you're good in a group text.

I like it. Yeah, you're good in a group. I like getting in there and seeing who's up to play. I'm with you. You know? And as long as there's one or two other people, there's always one person who's like dead quiet, who you just like, you know it's just fuming. Yeah.

At the like, brink, pring, bring, bring, bring, bring, bring. Yeah. And you know, sometimes it's Mandy. No, it's not. Sometimes. No, no, no, no, never, never. Once in a while. And then you get on and you read it, and you're like, oh, okay. No, never. Honestly, sometimes I'm surprised when I come back and it's like 87 text messages. You're like, what did I miss?

James and stuff like that. Is everybody okay? Oh, it's just Chris. You missed me and Maccoma meeting for the first time over text messages. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was funny. That was funny. Game met game. Yeah, and I had never met this guy on a, and we met for the first time in a group text with Mandy. Yeah. And I was like, who's this lover? Oh, yeah. Who's my lover?

Yeah. Hello, Matthew. My lost friend. We just had like memes and jiffs. Yep. Oh, yeah. And apparently a lot of free time. You find the time.

Oh, my gosh. So Toby did not want in on the group text. No. He didn't want it on the group text on this. When it came to this personal information. And this is all going down in the parking lot. Toby is tailgated himself. Are you insane?

Diego or in the back of the minivan. Yeah. Yeah. He's in the hospital. He's in the guy. The hospital. Yeah. And he's got a little camping set up.

A little ice chest, a little folding chair. Yeah. I think I'm pretty much wearing all my own clothes. Were you? Yeah. I remember. I remember that. I remember that hat and the jacket.

It was all my stuff. I don't remember why. But I think I showed up to like a costume fitting. And I'm like, why don't you just wear that? I've never got a chance to do that. Me either. That's amazing. Toby and I eventually became.

the same. You're sitting in the parking lot. You're waiting for your updates. You're in cozy. You're settled. Old older gentleman comes in and he says, hey man, you're in my spot. And you're like, bro, he's like, I can see like 10 and I ain't even looked in the other direction. You know what I'm saying?

It's like, you need to back back real quick. And so the older gentleman winds up telling you about, he's like, you know, I'm actually waiting for my wife to, to, or my. baby to be born. Yeah. And he's like, well, I'm waiting to see if my wife's going to live or die. Yeah. We, the first house we lived in was at 157 something something.

And so I've always parked in spot number 157. He gives the story and he goes, are you still going to make me like go somewhere else? Are you going to let me at my spot? And you're like, no, sir, I get it. I can move over, right? Yeah. This night of shooting, Ken Olin directed this episode, right? Yeah.

He did. Yeah. It was such a cozy, like it's one. one of those perfect nights of shooting. You know the difference. Like, you know what I'm talking about. I do. Where you show up and the work is just enough

to be, like, sunken into, but not overly strenuous. I got you. And it's a comfortable situation, and it's a beautiful night. And I didn't know who they'd cast to play this guy. And then I see Michael O'Neill walk up. And I'm like, shut up. You gotta explain, like, so two Michael O'Neill stories. he was on Army Wives for an arc

and had a great job in that. And he pops up all over the place. He's been working his whole life. But he's the reason why I stopped watching Gray's Anatomy. Now get this. This is a good story. Don't make that face. At the end of season four, I want to say,

there's this whole thing where the shooter is inside of Seattle Grace. I was in that episode. That's why I made that face. I was like, that you were. So he's like knocking people out because they did something to his wife and he feels like it was a malpractice situation. So he's sort of just like heartbroken, grieving and like not in his right mind and is just going through the hospital taking people out. It is a two-hour.

That's Michael O'Neill is the shooter. Michael O'Neill is the shooter. It is some of the best acting. He's incredible. Do you win anything for that? I don't know. But like he was so good. And then my girl who's like the who's in charge of everybody.

the black lady. Shandra Wilson, yeah, yeah. Sure. I know she was the doctor that I was with. Yes! Chris, it was so amazing. I was like, I don't think this show will ever be better than this. And I just stopped because I wanted to remember that.

They talked about that being like one of like fans' favorite episodes of that show. And I didn't know what I was doing either. I mean, I watched the show. I think I'd stopped watching at that point. And then I got a call and I actually talked to Shonda Rhyme. She was like, would you come on and like do this arc? It's like a couple episodes. I'm like, okay, sure.

I don't know what I was doing, but it was fucking freaky. Dude, Chandra Wilson has a moment where one of the new residents or whatnot, he caught a bullet and she like holds and cradles him in her arms as he like died. Bro. It was. And so Michael O'Neill, to me, is like, he's a legend. Yeah, he's incredible. He pulled up on this set and I was like, oh, this is going to be a.

Good night. Yeah. I was so excited. Like outside, got that big, the big globe light that they hang up when you're doing outdoor stuff that's supposed to be the moonlight or whatever it is. Yeah, it was a beautiful night to be working. I love that. And throughout the night, I find out Michael O'Neill at the time living two blocks from me. Oh, wow.

Literally around the corner. I don't know if he still lives there. I think he might have moved back to Alabama for he's from Alabama. Okay. And yeah, we see each other walking dogs. This story is... Just dope-ass actors. Yeah, it's in the air.

It's just in, hanging out. It's in Marina del Rey. Yeah. Marina del Rey. Side of Los Angeles. This whole storyline was so sweet. Yeah. Yeah.

And it really did bring me back to that moment in time because he was like, you know, this damn virus basically. Like his wife is sick with COVID. She's on a ventilator. He's not allowed in there. He can't be in there. And I was like, God, yeah, this is what we were all living through. It's like, you know, he's like, even if I could, she wouldn't allow it because she wouldn't want me to get sick.

Totally. He tells this whole, I don't know if you guys want to jump in, this whole beautiful story about her, her like affectation for her affection for pigs. Like, she's, he has like a whole dashboard of his van set up with like a bunch of different like pig figurines. And he talks about their, they went to Austria, right, for their honeymoon. Austrians are big on putting these pigs on everything around. Pigs are supposed to be sign of good luck. That's right. Sign of good luck.

It's push time. He gets a text that like it's, you know, Ellie is starting to push. And Toby's all excited because he may not get to be in the delivery room, but he gets to pick the middle name. Yeah. She can't veto it all. He's got a whole list going. list. Yeah, I'm sure there were some, I put a bunch of my friend's names in there.

He did. A bunch of, yeah. I think there's some Star Wars stuff in there. Sure. That makes sense. But, yeah, so he's in the process of picking out a middle name. He doesn't want to pick it out yet. I actually, this is what I wrote, because we learned throughout the course of the older gentleman's story that his wife's name is Rose.

And we see Tobias sort of clocked out while he has a son. list open and I write, it's going to be Rose and I'm going to cry. That's what I wrote. That's what you wrote. Yeah. I was like, I see it coming now. Yeah, yeah. And it's still going to just get me.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Old man wipes off a pig gives it to Tobias for good luck. Old man wipes off a pig. That old sentence. Note. That point.

You didn't want to give you a COVID-y pig. He didn't one of them COVID pigs, is it? He didn't want to give you one of them COVID pigs, is it? He didn't want to give you one of them. a little coronavirus piece. I know. I remember we're wiping up all our groceries and everything. Swine flu.

Wiping off, and he wiped it off and everything. He gave it to you for good luck. Yeah. So then, so segueing away from you to inside the hospital with Kate, and we see the baby comes, right? In montage. In montage form.

And she asks, Kay, she says like, would it be okay if I held the baby? Because earlier in the scene, she's like, Like, the nurse made a mistake and called her the mom. Kate is mom. Kate is mom. So the baby is supposed to go to her first, right? And she's like, sorry, I should have looked at the birth plan, all good, right?

So then Ellie has a bit of a change of heart and she's like, would you mind if I just held the baby first? And we all sort of have that feeling of like, oh, God, oh, God, okay. How's this going to go? Yeah. Right? And you're like, of course, like, she's not going to tell her, no. You can't really tell her no. and then the baby comes and she's holding her

and she says, can we have a moment alone? And that's when you're like, come on, man. Don't do the kids. Listen, because the thing is, we've heard these stories. Of course. We've heard these stories. And it's your baby and chemicals are flowing through your body.

You don't, da-da-da-da. Sike. So, Elle's, Miss Funk, it's kind of like, oh, man, like I had this instinct to take care of you. as soon as I knew that I was going to have you. And basically, she's saying that, like, I wanted to have this moment to say goodbye. Because I think one of the hardest things to do is to give you to Kate and Toby. But I also think it's going to be one of the best things that I get to do.

And there's a little bit of like, okay. And then the next thing we know is we see the nurse carrying the baby and bringing the baby to Kate. Yeah. In first, baby is so cute. God, they're all such a cute baby. I know those cheeks. I didn't want to chew on that. How did that baby get on a COVID-Sach?

Who let their baby in here? Especially when I saw how sweet it was, I was like, girl, you're going to keep this baby. Because my sister had been waiting for a long time for a baby. You should have told if you're going to keep her. Also, kind of a rare moment beautifully played by Annie for a guest star. Yeah. Yeah.

Beautiful. She's great. She had like a real. family moment. She did. A little soliloquy. Yeah. Moment to like have like a little conversation with her baby.

Dare I say. Brock Funk. Yeah. So now we'll save a little bit of the connection thing because it'll go back to our smoke show, Argentinian and Indian couple in a minute there, right? So we should go to Kev. Kev and Madison. So well, before Kev even gives it because we don't know.

Madison and Randall and Beth. That's what I have. Yeah, go ahead. Start. They're FaceTiming on the road trip, right? FaceTiming on the road. Beth is upset. There was no special sauce.

I like that. Real. What are we eating? What are we eating? I don't know. It was the only thing open, Beth was talking about. It was the only thing opened in the middle of Alabama.

As these seasons go on, as these seasons go on, every time she's on screen, I'm like, am I in love with Beth? Yeah. I think everybody is. I think I'm in love with Beth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ken would just shamelessly, he'd be like, hey, hey, Sue, how you doing today? Like, he was like a little kid around her and we'd like go together, hugs and everything. I was like, hey, maybe I quit touching my TV wife. Yeah. You get a little too excited, sir.

Back, back. Madison feels like she's impeding on, you know, like intruding on their time together. And they're like, what are you talking about? We're just, we're driving. We're all kind of trying to keep each other company. You're keeping them awake. Randall tells her that he's kind of a baby-birthing expert.

I was like, is this Randall or is this Sterling? Or both. Both of us. Yeah, I know. We both delivered the first trial. Yes, yes, yes. Right. And then Randall is, we're kind of like cutting back and forth.

Yeah. Randall ends up telling her, his story. You kind of like hear the end of it. So she's getting the story because I think she's deciding to get that epidural. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep, yep, yeah. Have you done, you did a dural? Just once. I couldn't the first two, the third one I did.

You did. Yeah. Couldn't. I couldn't. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. Was it. Morally?

Morally. No, no, I couldn't. I have a, in pregnancy, I have, like, a little blood disorder. Okay. That wouldn't, like, my, I have issues with clotting. Gotcha. And so I couldn't do it for the first two, but the third one, I took steroids before I gave birth. Yeah.

To up my levels. Yeah. And, and then I was able to get that, that sweet, sweet epidural. Was she more, was it much easier number three than one and two? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and my doctor was like, you don't really need. because you've already, you know, the path has been paved, but I was like, yeah, but... Yeah, can you please not call it a path and please don't refer to his page. But I want to try all the ways. But I want to try all the ways. And since I had done too unmedicated, I was like, let me do that sweet medicated. And it was delightful. I just was more, I felt very, like, present. I was able to, like, really, like, be there. Yeah, Rachel's first, she had, she had the epidural again, present.

Yeah. Well, smooth. Time for some music, some candles. The second one was so fast that by the time she turned and said, I'll have an epidural now. The nurse laughed at her. She was like, you're giving birth. The child's head is out.

Yeah, yeah. It's happening now. Like, as soon as you'll get in the position, it's happening. Yeah. So that's what's happening. Yeah. It's a big needle. She needs to be distracted.

I was like, Taylor, did you watch them do that for me? He was like, no. No, I did not watch that. There's, whenever they were doing any of that stuff, they were always less concerned about Rachel and more concerned about me. Yeah. Really?

Do you want a seat? Sir, would you like a seat? No, I'm fine. I'm fine. Are you sure? Come, come sit down. And I just began to realize, like, they had seen so many. Men just like, like, look at it and they looked at me.

And they're like, we're not catching this. Like, if this guy goes down, we're gonna have another patient. Yeah. Like, so they would like triple checking. No chair, no stool. Crutches? Nothing. You're good?

Why don't you lean up against the ball? Another bet. Yeah, we're gonna have to have you sign this form. You know what? It's funny, like being at home for both of them or whatnot, I think like, there's something, there would probably been more interesting knowing that I wasn't allowed the same proximity that I got at home.

where I probably would have been more nervous at the hospital. Sure. You know what I'm saying? It feels more like official. The midwashed are like, you want to get in here? I'm like, yeah, okay, I'll get in here. Cutting cords. And you're like, you're like, you're just like right next to them.

And you're like, I'm watching something like amazing take place or whatnot. But if other people are sort of like keeping you back, then you're kind of like, should I help? Should I not help? Like, am I in the way? Am I not in the way? Like, I don't know. I haven't had the experience.

So you can speak to it. I was front and center for bears arrival. Yeah. It was like perfect. Obviously well lit. They got that light, like, spotlight. And David Bowie came on the playlist, like memory of a free festival. Do you know that song?

No. It's this, like, trippy, hippie-dippy song. But at the end, there's like this, like, cacophonous, like, chaos sound. And then this chorus starts singing this, the sun machine is coming down. And we're going to have a party. And then he made his arrival. Yeah. And that loops over and over again, and here he comes.

Oh, my God! Wow. And Rachel and I were recently watching The Pit, where they have incredible makeup. Are you on season one or season two? We're on season two. But in season one, they had the delivery. Dude. That's my TV wife who delivered that baby on the pit.

Okay. TV wife from Paradise. Oh, yes, of course, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Rachel turns to me and goes, is that what it looks like? I was like, yes. Yes. Listen, because all the pit, like the shoulder was stuck.

So my man has to like get in, open, so the shoulder can pop through. I was like, oh, God. Yeah. All kinds of stuff happening. All kinds. Bodies are amazing. Amazing. There is the distraction.

And he fumbles for a minute. Beth is like, don't tell the story about being dropped at the fire department. And so he comes up with this story about his brother in high school, junior prom, and he has one too many. Coming home drunk. Coming home drunk, you know. And she's like, don't think about the drunk part. Just think about, you know, charming young man trying to find his way.

A little baby alcohol. Somehow winds up. Just a little baby alcoholic back when he was cute. Before the real problem. Just a little couple of beers. What's Benicio's line? and maybe a few small beers. Or just a few small beers.

One battle after another. Oh, yes, yes, yes, God. I don't know, a few small beers. He is unhinged in that movie. I love him so much. Oh, my God. I want to watch a whole movie of that character. Of that karate instructor.

Phenomenal. God. He strips off all of his clothes, and he starts, like, singing Hansen to himself, right? Doing a little oomab, what have you. And he looks at him. Naked. Naked. Buck Booty ass naked, pasty, white, all glory.

It's a full moon, bright full moon. And he says, he freezes. And Randall says, I think he's about to yak. And then he says, dude, we should start a brother band. You know, they have Hansen, we could be piercing. And then, like, he starts singing oomboab terribly. Can you imagine? Just the only way. I tried to find, like, guys, you want me to scale it down to put it in my register?

And they're like, no, sing that shit up. You got up there. I did the best I cared about. I appreciate that. And then... Beth joins in and we do the thing. And like it's a moment of sort of... She's not thinking about the needle going into her back, right?

And then at the end when the whole thing is done, Kev's there. Oh, I know. I was like, I literally went, oh. Like when he walked in. Like, I forgot he made it. I was so, like, taken by that story. Kev made it, which led me automatically like, what did he tell this black woman

that let him on the plane? That's a charming motherfucker. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But I was happy to see him. He was happy to know that somebody was sort of keeping his wife company as it was all going down. And then they have a wonderful conversation.

You asked me to think about what place this family has in my life. And he's like, dude, this family is my life. Yeah. Right? And I think at this point now, montages begin. And babies start to be born or is in the cause. Yeah. This is when the phones come out.

Yeah. Yeah. So the babies are all born. Babies are born first. Yes. Right. Yeah. Then it's sort of like.

It starts to intercut, right? It starts to intercut with like, yes, with the montage and then photos being shared and FaceTime's happening and whatnot, right? You want to go to the nerdy smoke show? Well, you can go back to the nerdy smoke show? Smoke Show. Do we have their names? I want to, I want to. Yeah, shout out nerdy smoke show. Abi Simha. Sinha. Sinha. And Katie Sarif. Katie. Katie. They killed it. They were great. They were wonderful. They're absolutely wonderful. So, so my man, Abi Nasir starts to explain, because she's like, explain this to me like, I'm a four-year-old because that's how old their son is.

He says, like, there's this network of computers that's being built all over the world. And they're interconnected with one another. And we have the, And soon they're going to be in people's houses. Like we'll have access to them. It's like a web. An interconnected web of computers, if you will. All around the wide world. And if you show a picture on one, then you can sort of instantaneously show a picture.

Like when you need to communicate with your mom or whatnot, we have to put something in the mail and you sent there and it takes a while to get there. Imagine if you could electronically. Electronically, take the picture and then it shows up on our computer. And not just pictures, but even videos. videos, right? And then the montage continues. And you see this family that has a cabin outside in Pennsylvania, and we're in, on a car in Alabama, and we're at a hospital in San Diego, and a hospital in Los Angeles. And there's this whole thing that was, we got to talk about

Miguel. We will. But there is like this beautiful web of interconnectivity that is allowed, in this time where everybody has to practice social distancing. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's like, oh, wow. Like, and it makes you remember, like, because we talk about like, what is the right place, you guys were talking on a commercial break,

what's the right place of social media, like the roles in which technology can play to amplify our lives and sometimes not so much, right? Makes us feel, this is a moment where we're highlighting the beauty of connection and how technology has allowed for something to transpire that would not have existed five years prior, 10 years prior, you know, something like that. And it's gorgeous.

The twins get a chance to meet their cousin, you know, Haley Rose and grandma and grandpa get a chance to see all the grandchildren and even Randall and Beth in the car. And it's just like, dude. And so we'll go back to your storyline. But also, we can't gloss over the Haley Rose Damon of it all. That's her mom. Because she introduces Haley. Yeah.

And you said, hi, Haley, Rose. That's right, because he wanted to meet her first before he picks a name. That's right. And like I say, it does go well. It does. It does. It does. Rose is one of those vintage names that is perfect.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know in Amaya Rose. Yeah. It's good. It's coming back. It's good.

Okay. To finish off Kev, he winds up having a conversation with Randall. Thanking him. Thank him. He said, look, man, the thing that I was most worried about is that she was going to be alone as I was up in that plane. And to know, when I heard your voice, like, sort of, keeping a company, I really appreciate it and thank you. And he winds up saying, you know, I know it said a lot of things about you,

but honestly, Randall, you're like the best man I know. And I'm trying to like just keep up with you. And I'm getting a little misty with her. I just even hearing it. He gets misty, he Randall, who's also me. But in the car and he's like, all right, man, that's cool. He said, look, we can have, we got time for conversations. If you want to talk about like childhood and how things were for me,

I am more than happy to have that conversation. But you know what happened right now? You're a daddy. Yeah, you have two newborn babies. You got two brand new spanking babies. Franny and Nicky. Nicky. Nicky for Uncle Nicky.

Who also got a chance to see his namesake as well. And this is the note that I took on this one. You don't comment on other people's kids' names. You let them tell you what their names are and you say, I like that. You know what I'm saying? That's why we announced our names the way we announced our names. So no one had to worry about it. It's the name, get on board.

We sent Bears name announcement out to people in a jigsaw puzzle. Okay. We copied them and did the same way. Did you really? And it was like, and it was more, less about the game of it and more about like, why don't you read it first? Then call. Yeah. Because we didn't want, there were certain people at us, we didn't want to see their faces hearing for the first time.

Yes. Because we didn't believe that they could be like. Oh. Yeah. Totally. Totally. And then IFA were like, no one's going to even know how to say this name. And so we hired a guy from YouTube.

Yeah. Who specializes in the Irish language. Yes. And he made a video to announce her name explaining how it was supposed to sound. It's fantastic. We sent that to everybody. Yeah, it's perfect. You guys are so creative.

There's, there's, Rye and I, not me, but Rye desperately wanted like familial approval over names so she would share like ideas. I just want to say this, and you guys will echo this, young parents or parents to be or whatever, don't tell nobody nothing about your names. Unless you know that they are just fans and we're going to be nothing but fantastic towards you, keep that is to yourself.

And then once they know the name, then they can get on board. Yeah. That caused so much stress, bro. I was like, will you quit? You're eliminating all the possibilities each time you say one and somebody has a reaction. And now we can't sit. Yeah.

Kept in it. I'll keep them anonymous. But I had this friends, two sisters were pregnant at the exact same time. Yeah. And Sister A, older sister had her baby first. Okay. And announced the name via email. And then Sister B was like, that's the name I've been telling you this whole time that I'm going to name my kid.

And she was like, what? What? Oh my God. I had to say to change the baby's name and send out another email. Oh, you're serious. Older sister changed the baby's name. Well, good for her. Because it was named after a relative. And, yeah, I was, I, I, I, those types of social situations when they're not happening to me.

Yeah. I love. I want to pull up a chair and pop some popcorn and watch it unfold. Especially since there's no like real danger. Like it's not real danger. It's just social danger. And I must have played it out for Rachel. I'm like, Rachel, picture Sister B's face reading the name announcement email.

And being like, what? What? What? And then having to call out. I just love it so much. I love awkward. Yeah. So much.

Okay, here's an awkward name, like my contribution to it. When your children are born at home, you legally have 365 days to give them a name. Only when they were born at home. Yeah, I think the hospital mandates that you give them a name before leaving. Interesting. But when you don't have to go to the hospital, you have to go to the hospital, you have experience and 65 days. Caviot, you don't get a social security number until you have a name.

And a birth certificate, yeah. There you. Ryan Michelle Bethay loves to make decisions by not making decisions. So I was like, Bird, we gotta name this kid. And she's like, I know. And I'm like, you have any thoughts? And she's like, I have lots of thoughts. I was like, any thoughts that you like to share in terms of a name?

No. I was like, okay, I want to share some thoughts. And she's like, I like that one. I like that one. I was like, well, we should choose one. She's like, we don't have to write now. And I was like, yeah, no, we don't. We have 365 days.

But he'll be like off the record. Yeah. Yeah. So we called the grid. We called him like baby boy brown for a week. Although I immediately sort of started calling him Amari. Oh, this was Amari. This was Amari.

So Amari's full name is, because we couldn't decide, Amari Michael Ryan Christian Brown. Yeah. And that's how it works in our house because it's like, you know what? We couldn't make a choice. So we just put them all together. Yeah, why not? Yeah.

There's plenty of room. Yeah. Plenty of room on the forms. He can play with it. Although someday at the DMV, he's going to call you. So what are the middle names? He's going to call you. Michael Ryan Christian.

Michael Ryan Christian. Got it. Got it. Yeah, see. Because I wanted to do Amari Michael Christian Brown. And I think she, in all of her delightful vanity, wanted him to be like Amari Ryan Brown. And I was like, I think Ryan's a good name.

But her birth father's last name is Christian. So I was like, I'm honoring in that, like, you and like your dad and everything like that. And she's like, yeah. And our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And our Lord and Savior. Hallelujah. But she's like, Ryan's going to be in that too. And so like I would actually poll people.

And she didn't necessarily want Amari for the first name. Amari came to me like in the car. And I was like, so Andrew and Amari, I like the double A's of it all. And the name means cherished one, you know, or loved one, et cetera. And I was like, yeah, I think I'm going to love him. And like I just said, hey, right. I said, I got a name. And she goes, yeah?

And I said, Amari. And she goes, oh, I like that name. I was like, yeah, so I'm going to call him. So for 30 days, I just called him Amari. And she eventually got on board. She still hasn't decided. She still hasn't decided. Time is past.

She's still up in the year. She's on board now. Yeah. When West Jet first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion. Inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to Westjetting since 96.

Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. So these brothers are on the road to reconciliation. Yeah. Right? It looks like they're going to have some sort of substantial conversation sometime in the near future. But he's like, you get this moment to be the newest father in the Pearson family. And there is a new big three. There's a new big three.

Which I loved them sort of pointing out. I think Kate says that. You guys are the new big three. All on the same day. Yeah. We'll be working on levels. There's levels to this game. And we can tie all of this into the Miguel story, if we want, before we wrap up the sexy nerds.

Yeah. And it all goes back to that painting, right, about how we remain in each other's lives, even though it might not look the same, right? And here we are in each other's lives, but we're connecting via these phones and screens and all these things. And it's a painting that all throughout this episode, as Rebecca's been doing everything she can to. stay in contact with all of her children, trying to find the best Wi-Fi spot or waiting for texts to come through, whatever it is.

Miguel keeps catching her looking at this painting, right? And he finally, towards the end of the episode, says, hey, what is that? I've never seen that there before. When did you put that up? When did that get there? Did you put that up just for this episode?

Just for this episode. Yeah, just for the moment in time. And Rebecca says. Well, she talks about how it's kind of this reminder to always be close and never miss a thing. And she feels like at this moment, not being there for her kids physically, she feels like she's actually letting down Jack. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

She basically is sort of like addresses the elephant in the room and is like, you know, you've really like been through a lot with this like, like, Jack looms large. in the lives of this family. Yeah. Like, and you really kind of like stuck with us, right? You've had to hold his death differently than the rest of us. You're right. It's a lot. It says, I'm a lot.

Mm-hmm. He says, you're just the right amount. Just the right amount. Yeah, even Taylor, that's when he came in, he was like, aw. That was sweet. It is an acknowledgement of like a man who, ego never sort of like made it about him or me. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

He never sort of said like, listen, you know, I know you guys had like this this dude, Jack was a party life, but like I'm here now. You know what I'm saying? He's like, because I think he had just as much love for the dude as this whole family. Yeah. You know what I mean? But still had to sort of like a sort of live in the shadow to a certain extent. But he was okay to... And be okay. And be okay because he had cell for us.

Yeah. He valued himself. Yeah. He knew what he brought to this family. Yeah. Yeah. And I love, even before this, you know, in Rebecca's sort of nerves and anxiety, she asks him to make her a cocktail.

And I love these little moments between them. It's just is cute and it's sweet and it sort of speaks to their connection and their bond that they're having like this. Anaset? What is Anaset? The way you two were saying cocktail to each other was just like, it made me uncomfortable. Like, I was like,

what? Is it a code word? I don't know. I was like, she's like, I could really use a cocktail. And it's like, and I just had, you know when you hear a word

and it's like you're hearing it for the first time? And Mandy Moore, when she's old lady Mandy Moore, is so gone. And she has this like, added, old lady attitude, you know, like, that's just like perfect.

She wants a cocktail. That's like perfect. And it's because it is naughty, like she shouldn't be having one. And her doctor said maybe once in a while. I want a cocktail. And I was like, really? I was like, why am I so uncomfortable? She says it twice.

And then he says, I don't think you should have a cocktail. And then he's like, one cocktail coming. And she's like, what is happening right now? Are we going to smash cut to lovemaking? What is happening? Oh, my God. It's also the generic, like, TV version of, like, a guy walks up, like, hey, bar keep, can I get a beer?

And the bar keep's, like, sure. Like, you want to specify what kind? She doesn't drink that much, that she knows how to, like, call out her looking. comes back with Anaset. What do you mean? What do you mean that it hasn't been updated in decades? What you mean since the 1870s?

They didn't... I'm gone. I'm out. I'm out. Oh, my God. She's like, whoo! It's like gasoline. Oh!

No, she doesn't say gasoline. It's like car fuel. You mean gasoline? The whole scene? I was like, what is happening? It's like car fuel. Oh, my God. I just taste like car fuel. Oh, God, Chris.

Just two 40-year-olds playing old people. John is 50. I'm just saying like, two, two, two, Two young people role playing. Let's pretend we're old and see if we can make each other a cocktail. Stop saying it, dude. The cocktail. I can't, yeah, there was like no specification.

It was just sort of like dealer's choice, whatever was in the liquor cabinet. I could really go for a jello shot. In that conversation that we do find out that evidently like Rebecca let loose in Puerto Rico. They got married in Puerto Rico. They got married in Puerto Rico. in PR. Which a big detail to drop and to never see a clip of the wedding. They were going to.

They were going to hot take. All right. We were going to shoot the wedding and we ultimately decided not to. Yeah, I think because of COVID and travel restrictions and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a bummer. Yeah. So we lost Puerto Rico and New Orleans in one seat.

Thanks, COVID. Thanks, COVID. But it was nice to see. It was nice to see the playfulness. And evidently, like, you know, in Puerto Rico, you had some tequila. And you're like, you know what, I was a free lady and I had this heard of him. I was a married lady. I was happy.

You know what I'm saying? Like, hey. Again, before we went off on that ridiculous and very apt to tangent, it was, I just like seeing those little slices. Like, it's not often that they're having fun with each other, especially at this juncture. It's like Rebecca's in the throes of like things are about to turn a very different direction. And so, yeah, it's like nice to see them a little lighter with each other. other. Is that the episode? Well, then it all wraps up and we tie up this, our sexy international couple.

Come on. By revealing that essentially this man, the character's name again, Nassir Ahmed. Nasir Ahmed. Yeah. Was one of the original computer programmers, scientists who made essentially. The technology. FaceTime. Zoom.

Skype. any of this sharing images and video via the internet. He made it possible. Yeah. And then we end the episode the way we don't end any other episode. The only time we've ever done like a Chiron or Craner at the end. And like photos of them as young people. It's a, can't read it because it actually happened.

And photos of them like sky, like zooming with the, with the, the writers. The last words are in the early 1970s, Nasir Ahmed led a team of researchers who developed the discrete cousin transform. This technique is still used by companies as part of their image video sharing technology. You don't know his name, but Nasir and his team are responsible for keeping us connected today. He and his wife Esther recently celebrated their 56th anniversary. We video chatted to hear their story. And I got me, like, I don't know if I'm an easy get or hard

kid, but I was like, I'm pretty easy get. I remember Fogelman. pitching this idea and he's like, dude, I'm gonna do this scene where like the guys who, the guy who's responsible for creating like FaceTime, we go into his backstory. And then it's sort of like ties into the way how people keep connected today. And he's like, it's going to be great. Because he like, he explains it in like this half-assed way and you're like, what? What are you talking about? And then he's like, yeah, it's going to be great.

Don't worry about it. And at that point, you just learn to say, okay. Yeah, you trust him. You know what I'm saying? It's like his brain works different. Like, I don't know how many people could come up. up with that. Then the next episode, we're going to do a whole story on the guy who invented Skype and just show him crying at home.

What did I do? Just. Zoom! Yeah. That's this episode. That's this episode. That's this episode. It was wonderful.

It was great. For anybody who ever had a problem with our show showing the pandemic, I understand. But I also want to point out, this is why it's important. It was important for us to to show it and to put it into this world. Yeah. Because there were important things. Yes, there were terrible, awful, painful. We were surrounded by death and concern and all these things.

But there was these new moments of the understanding of the gratitude that we have for connection that evolved out of that time. We did our first Zoom birthday for my mom. where everybody, you know, got on the screen and were able to connect with her, and she was able to see our faces and smile, and we were able to pour love into her. Like that happened. It came out of COVID, you know what I'm saying?

We did a Zoom graduation for my buddy's law school that never would have happened. Right. If, you know, he would have just gone to his graduation. Totally. People that were there would have been there. Sure. But instead, there was like 60 people on a Zoom chiming in.

It was pretty cool. I had a Zoom baby shower. So did we, yes, yes. Yeah, baby shower. I love it. It was great. I love it. Preferred even.

Yeah. I mean, I got to have both ways eventually, but yeah, the Zoom baby shower definitely holds a special place in my heart. Are we talking to the writer of this episode? We are. We're talking to Vera Herbert. Vera Herbert. She wasn't with us in the last season. Every other season.

But every other season. And she was like an OG, OG. OG. O-G. Also known. We call her Black Vera. Now, is she black? Not at all.

But she was the first person to win an N-A-CP Image Award from our show. So I figure you can be Black, Vera. You're part of the tribe. She's written some of your favorite episodes, including The Trip. Oh, she wrote the trip. Yeah. And that was what she won the Image Award for. That's right.

There you go. All right. We'll take a break. Be back with Vera Herbert Aftiness. Vera! Welcome back to the slot of the show. It's usually a fan segment, but today we've got an interview with one of the most storied writers, not only of this is us, but of the That Was Us podcast.

One of the people that we talk about the most. We are so excited because today we are joined by the writer behind season five, episode eight, Vera Herbert, aka Black Vera. Vera is here with us to talk about crafting one of the most emotional episodes of the season. and what it was like writing such an intimate high-stakes hour of this is us. So let's jump right in and welcome Vera Herbert to the show. Viro. Sorry to keep you waiting, Madam. Hi, Vera.

Hi, Vera. Hi, guys. How are you? Sister. I'm good. How are you guys? Doing very good. Wonderfully.

You look good. It's been years. When's the last time we've seen each other? I saw you at Kay's wedding. A Kay is wedding. That's right. Which was, I don't know, two or three years ago. That sounds right. That sounds right. You look good. You look happy. Thank you. Yes. Healthy. That's what's the most important in these days.

Thank you. We're getting into, you know, we're going to talk about 508 and everything. But before we just dump right into the episode, we like to give everybody a little bit of an opportunity to talk about how this show came to be in your life. Before you tell us that story, which I want to hear. I don't know if you, do you know how much you've been talked about on this podcast? Yeah, we talk about you pretty incessantly. Yeah. I know that Sterling always says that I won an NAACP award and I did not. Although I was nominated.

Are you sure you did? I was nominated. Okay. She was nominated for her episode. This doesn't lessen your blackness at all. Not at all. At all. I've been nominated many a time.

I still claim my blackness. So we've been talking about you on this show since, since, I mean. It's inception. And I'm so glad that we finally have you on today. So how did you come to This Is Us? Yes. I had developed a bunch of pilots with the studio that didn't go anywhere. And I hadn't wanted to staff on any shows because I was like, I just wanted to develop my own thing.

Sure. Sure. And then after year four of like developing a pilot that went nowhere, I was like, I'm really, I'm really ready to be on a show. Like, I want to go on a show. And so I think the studio sent me the script and said like this feels like exactly the match for you tonally of the kind of stuff you've been writing. We think the show is going to go forward and you should read this and you should meet with Dan. So then I met with Dan and it was, of course, awesome. And then as soon as it got picked up, I think I got a call that was like, this is, would you like to work on the show? And I said, yes, I sure would. Thank you. Will there be NAACP award possibilities? Yeah. Yeah.

Otherwise, I'm out. I think I had met with Jess, Jess Rosenthal, like some years before, just generally. And I think maybe I had kind of stayed on his radar. So he, I'm guessing, gave one of my samples to Dan. And that's sort of how it all came to be. Before going any further into the show, like, you want to tell them a little bit about, like, the highs and lows of development and having, like, four pilots, like, make it to, like, a certain level and then sort of not seeing it go to fruition. Like, how does that, how do you gestate that? How does that go through your psyche?

That is tough. It was, so I had a very fairy tale young Hollywood career. Yeah. On my 23rd birthday, I sold a pilot that I had written on spec. On your 23rd birthday. I got a call. I was day drinking. I was watching Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

My agent called and was like, the CW wants to buy your pilot. And I was like, what's that now? Hold on, hold on. Let me put down my white Russian. What are we saying? And so I had this kind of magical first experience of I wrote a pilot. It sold. It got picked up to pilot.

We went to Vancouver and shot it. Peter Hedges directed it, who is an amazing film director. if you guys don't know him. And we had a great cast. We were like, this is great. We're going to go all the way. And I'm like, I'm 23. Hollywood is so easy.

And then it all came crashing down. It did not go to series. I spent the next many years just developing more and more pilots and never even getting to that place, but had sort of like had that high early on. It's like, whoa, it's so cool to get to have your work produced. And get to work with actors and get to see it all come alive and live in a, hotel in Vancouver for a month and a half. So then it was after that point that I was just like, I'm tired of developing because I feel

very frustrated by projects pouring my heart and soul into things that you spend six months or a year or however long working on and then they go nowhere. And no one even gets to see them or read them. They're just dead. Like no one. Yeah, they just kind of like disintegrate into the ether. It's the worst feeling. Yes.

No one other than it getting sent around by your agent as a sample. for someone else to read. You know, friends and family are always like, so what are you working on? And I'm like, well, another pilot that's going to be dead soon. But yeah, I'm getting paid, so it's okay. So that's why it became like, I really want to staff and I want to work in a room again and be with other people

and have something that's actually going to go forward and get made and get produced. Was this as your first room? No, I had been in a room before. Okay. A show awkward on MTV. when I had just graduated college. Again, I have a very, like, fairy-tale one writer's dream of that I'm very fortunate that

that is sort of how my career started, that I was able to kind of straight out of college work. So I was on awkward for three years and started as an intern and then became an assistant and then a staff writer's assistant and then I left to go to do my pilot with the CW. Dude, you came out on time. Yeah, how great. Also, not just getting a pilot bought when you're 23, but having to quit your current job.

Totally. And be like, guys, so sorry. Gotta go. I'm so sorry. Yeah, it's terrible. I'm really good at this. Can you tell us if you remember what those early days in the writer's room at the beginning of the show was?

I'm just, I am endlessly fascinated. I say this all the time, but like Sterling spent a fair amount of time in the writers were more than... Maybe too much? Maybe too much? We'll see. We'll see what you think, Vera. But I'm just so curious, like, what those...

When the show was sort of like gestating in a way, like, when you guys were all there and figuring out this first season and what it meant, and because you were with us for the first five seasons, you weren't there for the last season, but I'm just so curious, like, what you remember, what really stood out to you, what made it so sort of like special. You know, we had a really small room at the beginning. I think there were maybe only, maybe only eight or nine of us writers.

And by the season five, you know, by the end of the show, or at least the end of my run on it, I think we had like 15 or something. So quite a different size. What do most rooms have? What's an average? It varies.

Yeah, what would you say? I think it very much varies because there are shows that are just, we have one showrunner and just a couple writers to kind of help generate material and the showrunner's going to write everything. And then there's ones that are, you know, 20 writers. So we were kind of small and then became big. It was really a kind of lovely all-hands-on-deck egalitarian kind of situation where I think even coming in,

I was, I was, had not staffed on a show in four years. We had other writers who had never stopped on a show before. But everyone was always like empowered to speak and pitch. And there was never a sense of, that just because you were, you were younger or hadn't had a much experience that your ideas were not valid. And so it really felt like we, a lot of us just kind of came up together on. the show and it felt like a very positive environment. There was a lot of nurturing and a lot of just everyone sort of appreciating each other's ideas.

And I think that, not that that didn't become true later on, it always was true. But coming in, especially with it being, because it was an unknown show. Right. It's like so interesting to think back to those days where we were just like, hopefully this will work. I remember the premiere party that we were all. all at whatever that first episode where you guys were all live tweeting.

Yes. And like a score's bar. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And it was sort of like, whoa, people are really watching this.

This is awesome. Before that, you know, we were working on the show for, I think we started that year in May or June and it premiered September. Yeah, you're like in a bubble.

So we'd already been on it for several months, just in a bubble. Had seen the pilot and obviously they knew the pilot had tested well. but it was sort of everything's a gamble what night is it airing what's it against? What are people tuning into a different show for some other reason

that night? So I think it was so exciting to just be in it and we were all so excited about it and so committed to it even before we knew that it was going to be this phenomenon. And I'm often struck by the vulnerability on this particular

show that all of the writers exhibited, right? Like you guys at least from what we've heard from some of your cohorts is just like it was like all hands on deck but also like everyone sharing every intimate detail of their life and you in particular had something i don't know if you're entirely comfortable talking about it but i know you've written about it a lot i'm just curious about your connection of losing your father and how that influenced your work and also like how you were able to sort of perhaps take your real life lived experience

and infuse that into these characters who also lost their beloved father at a young age. Yeah, it definitely was like group therapy. Just everyone, I think it was honestly day one where I was like, well, I don't know if this relates, but I lost my dad suddenly at 18 and here's how I felt and sort of told, you know, the story of how my dad died and how it affected me and I have two brothers. and so it did feel like I have this this very tragic part of my life but I'm able to channel it into the show

and try to bring a realness to the characters and say feelings that I actually felt or things that went on with me that helped inform some of their you know, storylines and stuff and I think it's in a way that's like not about the show, but about me personally.

It's like a great way to channel grief is to put it into art, right? And so that is why I think because we all did that with every aspect of our lives, people who had issues with pregnancy or people who had, you know, different things. It all is what made the show so real that all of us were able to just really deep, deep dive into our own pasts. And again, because it was such a great group of people that you felt comfortable sharing it from literally day one. Like, you know, I'm in a room of strangers

and telling them sort of, you know, the saddest thing that ever happened to me and felt safe doing that. Do you feel like, do you give, and don't give him any credit that he doesn't deserve, right? Because we all wax poetic about Fogelman and he loves that his head is huge right now. But, like, you feel like there's anything

that he does or did to create that environment? Is there anything that he did either by example or just by saying, like, listen, this is what I want to make sure that people felt comfortable bringing that themselves? Or do you feel like it was just the synergy of the people? And then one really embarrassing story too. And then one time he fell down or something.

Something like that. Yeah, just to keep him humble. Yes, because I would say from the beginning, he made it very clear that he was drawing certain pieces from his own life. Or from, you know, the way that Jack dies was inspired by something that happened to a family friend of his and he told us the story. So it was always clear that he. was pulling from his real life and that that was informing his storytelling.

And so it was like, well, of course, we're all going to do the same. And again, I think because he was always willing to just listen to the writers, if you wanted to pipe up and be like, well, I have lived this experience. And here's why my experience is different than what you guys are pitching, because this is what really happens when you're 18 and your dad dies or when XYZ happens. it was always like okay cool then we will defer to the person who has the lived experience I love that that we're trying to to put on screen and I think that that's that's dope yeah okay yeah it shows that that again it Dan has always been and Isaac and Elizabeth too

we're always just wanted the best idea and the most moving story and anyway that we got there it didn't need to be sort of from the top down I want to sorry I have a 508 question you guys I'm going to talk about micro. So real quick, because I remember Dan pitching sort of like the framework that he wanted to hang 508 on with regards to the person who invented the technology behind Facebook. And I remember him explaining it to me. I'm like, what is this guy? Are you serious? And then he'll just like, don't worry about it.

It's going to be great. So I'm curious. When he does like his weird Dan shit like in the room, are you guys all automatically receptive to it? Or do you have like your moments of like, is this shit going to work? Or like, how does it normally go? Not always immediately receptive. Because sometimes you're like, I cannot see, I am not understanding what's happening here.

Yeah. And with that story specifically, we broke it in sort of a generic way. We were like, okay, it's going to be a story where a nerdy college guy is like in his dorm room and instead of going out and partying to his friends, he's studying. Like, we just had these kind of beats that we felt were probably would tell this story.

Um, and then we decided to, or maybe it was already in the works that we were going to talk to Nasser. And, um, once we talked to him and his, his wife was on the Zoom the entire time unexpectedly and was just like at his side, singing his praises the whole time, telling, like, jumping in over him, telling a story for him, like about their life and, and how he developed this technique and stuff. Uh, it became clear like, oh, everything we had that was just generic. like writers trying to come up with science, math, algorithm, mumbo, jumbo is nonsense. And the actual story we need to be telling is about these two, this couple. Yes. Because this is what is interesting and they're fascinating and his wife is fascinating. And so, yes, that was a case of Dan had this idea.

We came up with a story. I was maybe less than excited to write the generic version of the story that we came up with. Yeah, sure. Not as no shade to Dan, but just like we didn't know What the story should be so we again. It was just like a nerdy guy in his college dorm I'm studying and I don't remember all the pieces But it didn't have that magic yet and then when we when we talked to Nasser and his wife We were like oh this is the magic and so we just completely rebroke the story based on our conversation with them

It is interesting because we were talking about in the episode. It's the one time that we have like is a cryon? Chiron at the end is the and like so was that Dan too? Because it's the only time we've ever done it and never did it again. Just tell me about it. It just felt right because of the conversation.

I don't remember if that was in post that was decided or if it was in to help explain a little bit. We decided we were going to need it. But I think, because I just rewatched the episode this morning so that I would also remember what that episode was. And as it came out, I forgot we had put that in and we put in the screenshot that had them and the photo of them.

Yeah. Talking to you guys And so I think it was such a cool way. I mean, look, at the time, obviously, we were like deep in COVID and it was how everyone was communicating. So I feel like for people watching it, it was probably cool to be like, oh, this is, they didn't make any of this up. Like, these are the real people. This is a real story. It was also a little glimmer of hope, like amongst all of this disconnection. Sure.

Like, well, here's the story of how we're connecting and why it's happening this way. And there's a real human connection. behind it. Yeah. And what an amazing time capsule for Nasser and his wife and their family. Yeah. To now have this episode. They get to be on the show.

It was sort of dedicated. But they get to have his work memorialized in a single episode of television. It's really interesting. Sorry to go back to like the broad strokes of the show, but are there any like memories that stick out to you just because we haven't been able to talk to you before and you've written so many incredible, is there, is there an episode of the show that you wrote that's like your favorite or that you're the most proud of. You know what?

I will always have probably, I mean, the trip being my first episode. Yeah. And being the first time we went to the cabin and everything with that is always going to have a very, very special place in my heart doing the weird, the trippiness of it, which wasn't something. We ever did again? We went back to, like, I don't, I was just going to say, I don't, if we ever did another, we had dream sequences and stuff.

We did the one, the episode where Randall, the two different versions of Randall's life. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. After the fire. It was a very cool. And it was a hard, there was so much logic that had to go into what he's seeing and what he is remembering and what is happening. That it was like a little puzzle piecey.

Yeah. And it was, yeah, I was always just proud of how it sort of came together. And it being the first episode we ever did the cabin, which became so. Such a staple of the show. It's how you became Black Vera. Yeah. That was it. How the nickname was.

came to be. Is there, so, okay, in your, and going back to 508, is there, I was telling the gang, I was like, at the end of 507, Kev is talking to this black lady about how he needs to get onto the plane. And I'm wondering, was there ever like a shot of like how Kevin was able to talk himself onto the plane or is he was just going to magically appear like that was it. Because there's a part of me that wanted to see how exactly he charmed the sister. How he did it. You know what? I don't. think I ever wrote a scene that was him doing it.

So I'm guessing we just decided we were not going to think about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's just say he has another kid somewhere. If you know what I mean. It was going to be season seven. I do know what you do. That was the spin-off. Is there anything that you think of in terms of just like all of the pregnancies,

like the sort of near, a miss of thinking that maybe Ellie is going to keep the baby and like the worry, because I had like this sense of worry, like did my brother and sister go through this whole thing? And now they're not going to get the kid. Like, was there any other directions that this episode could have gone that you guys ultimately decided that this is the way it's going to go? You know what? I don't remember that specifically,

although I think with the Ellie storyline, what I do remember is we, you know, over the years had talked to multiple adoption experts and people who work in the field. And I think they they time and time again told us Don't play a storyline of The mom deciding to keep the baby Because it is so damaging to Adoption in real life People are scared to try to adopt

Because they have this narrative in their head That the birth parents are going to flake out at the last minute And try to keep the baby And it has a real world effect And so if you can show adoption in this positive light Where that is not what's happening that's not what we're playing. It will do wonders for just like the adoption,

for an audience, for someone who is thinking of adopting, they might actually go through with it because they're not suddenly scared like, well, I keep seeing this thing that the mom keeps the baby and like, I don't want to go through that. And so as I was watching it this morning, it reminded me.

I remembered that that was sort of conversations that we had had because we don't play very hard that Kate is in fear of that. Clearly she is. Right. But you see her understanding that Ellie needs a moment.

She's clearly worried, but it's not this like boom boom, like super scary thing. And then you go to Ellie and she gives that speech. And then it's just settled. And it's not this huge, dramatic cliffhanger. Is the baby not going to be able to go home

with Kate and Toby? And I think that's cool that that that story could have gone many different ways and and that you know we tried our best like we did so many times in the show to to to sort of do right by the storyline that we're trying to like vera this is important i have this conversation with my wife oftentimes and it's about like the power of media to reflect reality or one version of reality and the power of media to put out into the world image that we wish to see more of.

Right? And so sometimes we're just really reflecting and sometimes we're saying, we're making an offering. And you're talking through those conversations with the adoption experts and saying that like, this image is one that is positive for the power of adoption and brings people to the table rather than having them retreat

because of that fear that they've articulated. And I think you need to show both. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But like I think it's a real treat to be able to put something in the world that's like, you know what? what, this is something that I would want to do and not to step into it with fear. That's a math.

I didn't think about that, but that's not even a hot take. I think our show did a really masterful job of that, of handling both sides of that, like you were just saying. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome, man. What else is there? There's a lot of scaffolding in this episode with regards to brothers leading towards reconciliation.

Do you have any thoughts with regards to Kev and Randall sort of coming back? to each other and the part that this episode played in that arc. Randall and Kevin resolve in ways constantly through the show that that sort of make you be like, I wish this is what, you know, this is what siblings should be. Yeah. So when Randall decides to stay on the phone with Madison for all those hours. Yeah. How could you not resolve after that?

You know, like how could you, it is so exactly what needed to happen, what he needed to do for her. and what she needed. Very generous. That for Kevin has to then, you know, come to the table and say like, I, whatever he says at the end, like, you're, I'm doing a poor man's imitation of you. You're the best person I've ever known. Yeah. When you think about it at an outside context, like her baby daddy's brother is in a car driving during, like, it's so crazy. Yeah.

And it's so sweet. Yeah. Yes. It's like if they didn't reconcile after that, what are we doing? Yeah. No. I was talking to the gang about leaving the set with this information. And I was talking about if I was in a similar situation, could I leave set, knowing like the amount of money and investment that goes into stuff.

Oh. Having Robert De Niro waiting and walking to the set. Mandy Moore is like, no, you leave. You leave. Your wife is going through this. Zimbiya. Sally was like, you leave or whatnot. And I was like, I need the job.

I don't know what it was. But like, as you were sort of coming up with the calibration of it, not having it tip one way or the other, like, how did you feel in rewatching it? I was like, oh, Kevin is tanking his career. That's what I did. Yeah. Yeah. But Mandy's like, so you're like, so what? So what?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I got you. Yes. Yes. I was like he is making such a choice that is going to leave a lot of people very not happy. Yeah. But also if that's what he needs to do, that's what he needs to do. And he'll be fine.

Like, he's a cat. He's going to land on his... He always does. That's what it is. He is a cat. Because he's like, he left the play. He came to see his brother. You'd get to take care of his brother.

He left this movie. He's like, I don't care about... He left the TV show. He left the TV. He does just, and he still is fine. And as with adoption, as with adoption, you made every independent film director believe that they could get Robert De Niro in their movie.

It's possible. Anything is possible. Anything is possible. Okay, as we, as we, we finished the show, but you left at the end of season five. You wanna talk about your thoughts and reasons, because I remember when I found out that Black Veer was going, I was like, not Black Veer.

Not Vera. I need Black Vera in my life. Talk to us about, like, where you were in life and what you needed to do for yourself that made the transition a necessary part for you. I had a movie that was coming out. Yeah. And I really wanted to start working

on my feature career because I knew that I wanted to have kids very soon and really wanted to be able to be on a feature writer's schedule, which is much more loose and conducive to just doing whatever you want, whenever you want. So it was honestly, it was such a hard decision to leave the show, but I sort of needed to pivot in that moment and sort of set myself up to be able to work on features while having a family, which now. Now I have two children and I write features from home. So it worked out. But it was such a, it was really a lot of soul searching. Because I had always envisioned that I would be on the show till the end and loved, you know, every minute of it. And it just, I sort of knew that I needed to set my life up that I could be in charge of my own schedule and not necessarily be in a room and on set as much. and kind of focus on building my own family.

And it's working. Yeah, it works. You have the family. It's working. And the films are, you're doing all right. The things are happening. It's good. Things are happening.

Great. I'm not sleeping, but things are happening. How old are the babies right now? I have a three-year-old girl and a six-month-old boy. Hey. Congratulations. Congratulations, Black, thank you. It's exciting.

Brandon, right? Brandon. Give him my love, please, and thank you. Send us a picture so I can see your babies. If you want, like, is there any films that are out actively or anything coming out in the near future that you want to tell people about so that it can stay up on Black Vera? That's what I need for them. Last summer in July, I had a film come out called The Map That Leads to You. That's a Europe trip romantic drama.

That was very fun to go to Europe and make. And other than that, just developing something that hopefully maybe there'll be news on soon. And is Black Vera the greatest nickname that's ever been given to anyone? She's like, I haven't heard that. It's my favorite. I mean, it's much better than White Vera. Way better. Way better.

No way wouldn't be called White anything. Not these days. Ladies and gentlemen, this was our chat with one of our favorite writers from the show. Her name is Vera Herbert, but lovingly, affectionately. I call her Black Vera. We miss you. We love you. Yeah, we miss you.

Thank you for taking the time on a Saturday. Yes, talk to us. I love chatting with you guys. You rock. You rock, sister. Thank you. Thank you. Those babies.

Yeah. Go back to those babies. We'll see you. Oh, hi. Wow. So we got to have a little conversation with Vera Herbert there. That was great. I haven't seen her in years.

Like she said, I was at Kay's wedding. And there was a few riders there. And it was good to see her then. But like, when you have people, who you see like on a daily basis or on a regular basis in your life. For years. And then they're gone. You're like, oh man, I don't want to see whoever it is,

which is the joy of being here with you guys right now. I couldn't agree more. I love y'all. I love Black here. Love this episode. So, you want to do it? Looking to your cameraman. Tell them the name of the show. That Was Us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios

and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith.