That Was Us - The Night We Lost Jack Pearson | "Super Bowl Sunday" (S2E14) with special guest Dan Fogelman

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

We have a very special guest joining us this week for the infamous 214 “Super Bowl Sunday” episode, This Is Us Creator Dan Fogelman! Dan joins Mandy, Chris, and Sterling to chat about the episode where it’s finally revealed how Jack Pearson dies. They break down all the episode details, plus how this episode came to be in the writer’s room, what they did (and didn’t) plan before Season 1, the great lengths the cast and crew had to go to to keep this episode’s secrets under wraps, and so much more! Stay tuned through the end for a special Q&A with Dan! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Follow That Was Us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Threads, and X! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of that was us, we will be discussing season two, episode 14, Super Bowl Sunday. On the 20th anniversary of Jack's death, Randall hosts a Super Bowl party. Kevin, Kate, and Rebecca share their memories of this day and how they've been coping since. Hello, friends. What's going on? How's everybody doing today? Well, how are you? We have a special guest.

We have a special guest, everybody. You guys know Mandy, Chris, myself Sterling, but do you know the man who created the show? Mr. Dan Fogelman, everyone. Everybody's back. He's back. He's back. I can't believe you guys have a live audience now.

This is amazing. We've grown up so much since you were last on. So, full disclosure, we were going to try to do this episode a few times before. We thought about doing it with just ourselves. And then we said, man, this, we had to hold on to the secret for such a long time and tease it out. Do you know how Jack passed away? Yes, we know how Jack passed away. People had all this sorts of theories about it.

It didn't feel right to not do it without the man who built up to this moment. So, Fulgman, thanks for joining us. Once again, we appreciate having you here. You okay? You look good. Thanks. got us Paradise Hat on. I just realized.

I'm coming from works. Cross-promotion. It's all paradise hats. Can we get Paradise hats? I can get you a Paradise Hat. Great. Cool. No worries.

So we're talking about 214. It's the fire. We talked a little bit about it with John and Glenn, who also directed the episode. But talk to us in terms of like, you're known now at this point in time of sort of like building suspense, the turns, the twist, etc. And sort of keeping people on the edge of the seat. What was it like holding on to the secret? Like this is one of the first read scripts that we had in terms of like people not like copying or whatnot. All of what went into keeping the secret as long as you did.

Yeah, I mean, it was a lot. It was a lot on our writers, I think, and the people that were constantly in charge of distributing scripts. We were so anxious back then. In retrospect, it was probably a little silly. I don't know what we were worried was going to happen that one of the few people who had access to it was going to put it on the internet. put it on the internet. I guess that's what we were worried about. I'm less worried about it now

because it's like everything's out there all the time. I just remember boards were constantly going down. Our writer's assistants were constantly taking pictures of things. We started realizing that every time we left our office, we were leaving the cards out everywhere that said what happened in the show. And there were tour groups coming through, and that started freaking everybody out. Isaac and Elizabeth told us that.

They're bringing tours through the writer's room. And they're like peek in the windows. I was, like, encouraging people to go, like, peer in the writer's room. Were they peering or were they bringing them inside? I don't think people were coming inside. Okay. But, you know, those places are, like, the temperature control in those places is terrible and those offices.

So we're always having the windows open or closed, depending on how hot or freezing it was. Because they're from 1892. Yeah. And so we were sitting and taking such great care to protect the secrets and then realized, like, there were tour groups just driving by with the windows open that can look right in the window and see everything. You have to be like a hawk, though, in order to read everything. It was more, we just really built it out.

We knew from the very beginning in those first couple of weeks that it was going to be a house fire, that he wasn't going to die in the house fire, that he was going to die from the after effects of it, that those after effects were going to have been caused by going back in for the family dog. So we knew all that. And then it was just really a matter of parsing it out

and making sure everything we told up until that point had been delivered at the right time and the right way. And just, it's kind of easy when you know the end. Like, it's not as hard as it seems. Getting to the end, logistically speaking, was Housefire, when it came up in the room, it was like, too easy?

Like, we need to push this back one more step. You know what I mean? Like, man dies in Housefire. No, no, no, no, that can't be it. Like, how do you push it down the road that? Yeah, I mean, the ironic part was... Delicately. The ironic part was, I think,

when I came into the writer's room, I believe I had a couple of scripts. we definitely had the pilot done and I might have written the second script already I can't remember or and I kind of whenever I'm starting a writer's room like I send out a document to the writers that says here's what the show is here's what I don't

know yet here's kind of my plan and I'm pretty sure house fire was just ingrained from the beginning and all the detail of it that going back in for the dog and the after effects of it but I think just it was a decision I made early in that early document that just held I think I thought

for a show that was going to be about a family that this hinge point being the burning down of their house would be like an interesting way to do it. Sure. I don't think it was something we backed into. I think we had that and then we backed into the steps

of how to get there. The ironic part was that when we made the show, it never occurred to me how big a deal the mystery of Jack's death was going to be. I thought it was going to be a small component. And when I'd wrote it out,

I'd be like, oh, we'll eventually get to the part where you reveal how it happened and that there was a fire. It wasn't until like the, the first episode started screening, and people were like, where's the dad? And the second episode, what happened to the dad? And it took on a life of its own.

It was always part of the fabric, but I didn't realize what a big deal it was gonna become. And in some ways, I think that became our superpower early on, which was we had this propulsive mystery underneath what was otherwise a very intimate, small family drama. We had this big question and mystery that I actually hadn't planned on being that crazy. Well, you said this the other day, Mandy.

Like, you're like, once you got to 214, you were like, kind of thank God. Now we can focus on just the lives of the people, right? Yeah, there was, like, relief. Like, we were just holding on to this secret. And I think as an actor, too, like getting through 214 and 215, like the aftermath of, like, the funeral and everything. It was like, and now this woman can just, like, put the pieces of her life back together

and start putting one foot in front of the other and moving on. There was, like, so much anxiety of, like, how do we do this? How do we do this? well, like, there's so much anticipation. I felt like there were so many eyeballs on, like, how is this going to go? Yeah. That, like, once that was out of the picture, it was such relief. Until they sow the seed for the next mystery.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. But it was scary at that time because it had taken on a life of its own. Mila had become this character that people were just, like, obsessed with, like, a TV, Dad, Jack. His name's Jack. Sorry. And, yeah, I don't know if you remember.

Yeah, yeah. Sorry. And so it had become such a big part of our. conversation that it was like it was exciting to discard it and be able to like focus on what comes next but it was also really really scary was it the most nerve you you dan gets nervous like yeah like just it's part of his nature like he loves going on x looking at see like what people are saying like in real time or what have you like it's freaked out was this the most nerve-racking for you no no no not at all it was

nerve-racking on a global global sense of like oh shit we don't have that thing to do anymore. Yeah. That magic trick to play where it's like, okay, in this episode, we're going to introduce the redheaded girl, and now we know we're getting closer to the death. And Chrissy can't talk cryptically to Sully, Kate can't talk cryptically to Toby anymore about what happened to her father without saying it. So we lost that magic trick on episode 14. Gotcha. And I think a lot of shows might have tried to pull it out longer. Yeah. And I was of the mind of like, this is where it should happen. Okay. Um, there was, yeah, there was a moment they even wanted to change our scheduling in the second season of the show.

If you guys remember that, when they wanted to put us, change our night. Change our time slot. And I threw a connipion. But the main way we won was by me saying, like, no, I have a very specific plan of, like, when we're going to do Jack's death, it has to be on the Super Bowl. This would ruin the plan creatively. And I was able to, like, win the day on keeping us on Tuesday nights because of that argument. When did you know that this was going to be the show that this episode was going to precede the Super Bowl?

I started asking for it right away. Oh, wow. When we were like, I don't remember. I mean, I knew going into season two, we would. But I just started asking for it right away. Because you knew the Super Bowl was going to be on NBC that year. I knew the Super Bowl was going to be on NBC. I knew we were laying in that the family was a family of football fans.

Yeah. We had established like the terrible towel on the pilot and all that. And it was just, you know, it was network TV. And there was a lot. I just wanted that slot for something big and particularly for that episode. Yeah. And you got it. A little bit further into this episode.

This is an interesting thing because you, up to this point, name them off. There's grandfather, there's Galavant, there's The Neighbors. What else had you had on the air that had run at least one season? Not much. I mean, I had done two shows that I loved, but had been rewarded or not rewarded in various ways, but I had done only two shows that had made two seasons. One was like a sitcom called The Neighbors, and one was this musical called Gallivant. They both did two seasons.

And then got cancer. I just said that. I certainly hadn't never had. I mean, it had done big films before, but I had never done a TV show that had, like, jumped into the zeitgeist. I had never had that before. Did it feel, and did it feel good from jump? Like, when did it feel like, okay, they're listening to me in a way that maybe they hadn't

listened to me before? It was the whole time, really. I mean, it was. John and Glenn kind of said as much, too. Yeah. We knew the pilot was special. We thought we had something. And then it was just, you know, every indicator before we even aired was just, this thing

was just like kind of like under, I'm not a very spiritual guy. I'm certainly not a very religious guy. But it was like, it was almost like this thing existed. It was just kind of waiting for us to all come along and do it. Because the stars aligned over and over and over again in so many ways on it. That it was pretty nuts. But yeah, it was right away. I mean, it was right away.

The Super Bowl episode that we're talking about was definitely the probably the pinnacle of that experience. Like that pro, I mean, when we all went to the Super Bowl that year in real time and you guys did was Fallon after the Super Bowl. We did Thoreen after. And I remember being on the plane. I just remember being it out to dinner. And I remember one of you guys, maybe Milo had come to dinner with me and my brother-in-law who I'd brought out with me. Okay. And it was like pandemonium.

It was pandemonium. Like we remember Biden was his nice president at the time. It was crazy. And then we went and hustled over and you guys did the Tonight Show. And it was like the Super Bowl. I brought my brother-in-law who was very excited. He was a New England Patriots fan. And he's kind of like just a great guy from Rhode Island from Boston.

And he like left the, I think the green room of Fallon because he just almost couldn't take it. It was like getting too overwhelmed. Like the size of the whole thing was so big that he's like, I think I'm going to call it. Like, it just felt nuts. It all felt nuts. And then I remember flying home on the plane and getting internet service and the studio and network were all calling that gazillions of people had tuned into the Super Bowl. It was just, that was like, that was kind of for me, like, the height of like the pandemonium

right around that period. Did you approach this episode differently knowing that there were going to be more eyeballs on it? And perhaps eyeballs that, like, they weren't like, I know the show was successful, but like, you know, you get new people tuning and that maybe have no idea who the Pearson's are, didn't, didn't. So, like, does that make you sort of think differently about how to approach this? Maybe a little. I mean, I remember trying to, in the most gentle way possible, kind of give a little exposition to situations at the beginning of the first scenes for each of the characters just so that people, if they didn't know, like, who's this guy, if they were coming in.

The opening is, like, this action movie for eight minutes, so it kind of draws you. And you, you don't know the situation. So that was intentional. And then I think, yeah, we knew we were saving the big twist. at the end with like future tests and future Randall, we wanted that to be something we had. I always wanted to like bring back that pilot song at the end of the episode, like, is that this,

that's this episode, right? The Labby Cifre, the watch me, it was a cover-up. I think, yes, yes, yeah. And like, ah, da-da-la-la-la. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. Yeah, I wanted to give everyone like a moment to eat in the pilot, like all the actors. Like I remember that was a big focus for me.

Like being like, huh, I want everybody to have, a moment, you know, at least every couple to have a moment. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it was like, and so I remember that being something that was really on my mind. I was like, oh, people might be checking it out for the first time. I want everybody's dynamic to be great and clear and to kind of get a moment of the seven of you guys. The editing and the structure of the show is such a, it's such a big part of the show, right? It's part of the musicality of the show. It's part of the reveal. It's part of the excitement. It's part of the mystery, all these things. And that is, I know that you have a big editor.

editorial team, but we have spoken in here quite a bit about the musical magic of your... Yeah, your fingerprints on every episode. Dan Folkman's editing on this show. And like you're talking about in this specific episode, how you started, the delicate nature with which you introduce characters so that people who are watching the Super Bowl can also watch this show. How did you learn how to do that? How did you develop that ability?

I made a lot of stuff early in my career, like those... The early shows I made, I got that opportunity to be in the edit bay and kind of learned how it worked a little. It was a play, I feel overwhelmed directing because I don't always have the lingo, and I don't know camera lenses, and I don't know, I still get confused about a long lens. You know what I mean? I never felt intimidated in edit bay somehow because I just was like putting a puzzle together. It's something I really, I think I like. Yeah, so you've been involved in the editing of your projects from the beginning. From the beginning.

Not my films, although I've directed. directed now two films, but earlier in my career, I got to make a bunch of TV shows that didn't really cut through, but I was making 22 episodes and you just start learning. And a lot of people, when they get their one chance to make a TV show, don't have that experience, you know, so then they aren't ready for it maybe when it comes. So it took, you know, I started making stuff when I was 25, 26. Even the animated films, I was heavily involved in sitting with the directors and the edit base. And so you look, I think you start learning. And it's just, it really isn't, editorial. just requires like kind of like knowing what you like and what you don't pacing yeah it doesn't need you don't if you have editors you trust which i do you don't need to know the lingo right or be able to that would that's always the thing that holds me back is not having a formal film or television education but it never held me back there um like i was just watching the opening of this episode that we're talking about and i was like watching the scene where milo and mandi are in the hospital room after the fire yeah yeah i can't remember what happens in every

episode but I can remember every edit almost like it's a weird thing and I don't watch the show off decisions and choices and I was like going oh what's there I was watching something and something bumped me and I go oh I know what it is it was the littlest thing but they're in sitting in the hospital it's the last time they'll ever talk and it was such an important scene and I remember like Mandy compliments Milo like three times in it how superhuman he is and there's a rhythm where she's like where you go you're the best and he says I try and the scripted like The response was, no, you don't, like, meaning try. No, you don't even try, and that's what you, that's what makes you.

But it was like the third time you had complimented him in the scene, and I remember thinking it's getting too much. It's getting like, we're saying out loud that Jack's a superhero like four times in a four-minute span, right before he's going to die. And so I just left it at, I try and just took a look from you where you shook your head with a cute smile and to know. And it was like, it's like 80 billion of those little decisions of what makes a TV show. But I noticed it when I was rewatching going,

something's a little odd about that rhythm. I'm like, oh, I'm missing a scripted line that I'm still somehow, like, vestigially remembering. Wow. Yeah. But then you make 20 of those decisions. You go, when is it too much? Like, Sterling's very light in this episode.

And, like, when does it get too silly? You know what I mean? Like, when do you want to, like, and that's what editorial is for me. Yeah. You also have such a love for music. Yeah. And your fingerprints are all over the music of this show.

Yeah. The editing feels musical. Yeah. Like the rhythms, the harmonies. I mean, it feels, it's in everything. Yeah. Well, we have great editors who now know what I like and we're simpatico in terms of like that rhythm.

And it's all of it. It's the show feels that way because Yasu shot it that way, John and Glenn directed it that way. The performances feel like that. The dialogue feels rhythmic. It's not just me. It's like a lot of people like making the same thing. Yeah.

You know. Yeah. All right. So we open everybody's asleep. My man opens the door and the fire is a roar. Now let's also say, because we've been away for a minute. But there's been a wonderful setup in terms of the week before, two weeks before the beeping of the fire alarm.

The battery, the smoke detector battery has not been replaced. And then Milo cleaning up after, what was they're trying to have the Super Bowl party, but everybody wound up bailing on him. And as he's cleaning up, the last thing we see is the pressure cooker sort of shorting. And begins to sort of time. That's when that song was playing. Yeah. Yeah.

That song. Excellent montage. We talked about it in that episode. What is the house? Build a home. To build a home. By the orchestra, Manchester. No, the cinematic orchestra.

Which that song is on an album that's all instrumental music. And that's the only track. With vocal. That was Vera, our writer. She found that song? No, at the very beginning of the show said, have you heard this song? And as soon as I heard I go, that's going to be what's playing is the house burns down. And then after I fell in love with it and after I edited it,

Someone said, you know, they used that very famously in Gray's Anatomy. And I was like, shit, I'm too attached. We're just going with it. Yeah. Did they? Yeah. In a sleepy time playlist.

He has to hear it. Has to hear it. So. We see that it shorts out. He turns it off, but it's like, the light still stays on. The non-descripts. It begins to flame at the end of the episode. So now the audience knows they're slightly ahead

of the Pearson's at this point. Pearson's are asleep at the top of the episode. My man opens the door. and it's full on. And he goes right into, I got to get everybody to blank out of here, right? His kids are in two separate rooms. He goes against Randall first,

brings them back to the bedroom, goes to get Kate. By the time he tries to get out to get Kate, it's like blazing. And I was just watching this. He takes the mattress. He pulls off the sheets and everything. This is so Jack has the thing,

and he like blocks the fire with the mattress. Shout out to Hannah because Hannah Hannah was like, I'm about to die. Like, she was, like, the panic in her voice and her performance was like, oh, no, this is real. Oh, yeah. I was freaked out. And he, just being the man that he is, Shields, you can see, like, makeup had his hands slightly charred. Yeah.

Like, as he's, like, going through and he makes it through. Then he starts lowering everybody out the window, et cetera. This is a moment for us that we're going to talk about because as the sole African-American representative amongst this group, This is an important thing. We're lowering everybody out. Like, we're safe, guys. We made it. Then we hear,

now, Kate was like, oh, what's the dog's name? Louie. Louie! She starts, Louie! And he's like, and he's like, oh. Now, guys, I mean, I'm going to be real with y'all,

and I need to know. You got two kids in the house, you know, your son is gone and whatnot? Yeah. You're going back for the dog. I wouldn't go back for my son Thank you for listening to us today This has been Dan Fogerman

I don't know It depends, it depends on the situation It depends on the situation Many more are you going back for the dog? I mean in my gut says yes My gut says yes Your gut says yes Yeah

In all honesty I probably I probably would just because I don't The 60 years I'd have remaining living with my wife when I let that dog burn would just not be worth it. I might as...

Sterling? No. No, no, no, no. Sterling? No. Listen, guys, and I don't... I want to tell this to listeners, I don't think that makes me bad.

I'll get another dog. Now, and I don't want that to sound. Or not, or not. You don't want another dog. I don't, for real. Honestly, like, to risk... Look, not only... I know. I know.

And to Jack's credit. Slash not crazy. He didn't just get the dog. My man gets albums. He gets all this stuff. And I'm like, Jack, bro, I love you. You my dad on TV. But like, I need you to live.

Like there's other choices that could have been made for other people. In my mind's eye, I also always justified it. It's never said in the show. It was like if you were inside Jack's brain that night, it was the dog's barking. I'm looking at my little girl. She's begging me basically silently to get the dog. Yeah.

I can't let her down. But then as his brain starts thinking, can I make it downstairs? He goes, if I get down there, I can get the tapes. Sure. And like I, in my mind's eye, that's, it wasn't, it was like that. It got him thinking I could get down there and get the stuff. Like, he's a, he's a vet.

He's seen some shit, as we'll learn. And he's like, I can get down there and get the tapes out of the house. And that was like, that was how I always justified it in my life. Dude, the, the shot of, so the family's down there. Screaming. Mandy Moore tried to run into the house. But then Randall's like, come on, mama. to stay right here.

And it's a nice little beat of just watching the house burn. And for a moment, we're like, this is how he goes. Also, I should say that lest anybody give us too much credit for having every single detail of the show mapped out, we did hit a point where we got up to the fire, and one of my writers

came to me, was like, Dan, how did the whole family have childhood pictures all over the place? And we had a lot. And I was like, shit. dressing. I was like, shit. I was like,

and then we kind of started justifying the cabin. The cabin. And then we were like, but there's pictures that predate our timeline when they bought the cabin. And I was like,

well, Jack got it all out during the fire. He went, when he got the dog, he got the pictures out. It was somebody, it was actually somebody on one of the Paramount tours

that they looked at the cards. They looked at the cards. I see you're missing something on the timeline there. Okay. So, so my man, he finally comes out.

The hero shot. The hero shot. Out of the smart. Slow motion, you know what I'm saying? It's a beautiful moment. He's got the dog under one arm. He's got the bag under the other. Everybody hugs it up.

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slash TWU, code TWU to get 50% off your first order. Spotentango.com slash TWU, code TWU. So there we go. We're sitting in an ambulance. The EMT's telling me, you know, you took in too much smoke. I'm amazed

to see that you're doing as well as you are. Go ahead. Can we give some BTS here? Yes. So remember how we were trying to hold on to so many secrets and occasionally because we shot practically like around Los Angeles there might be some like weird photographer, paparazzi or whatever that would like and most of the time it's not a big deal because you're like we're shooting in a location like you know or we're outside like with the kids like yeah not exposing any big pot points there's nothing that like they would get a picture of that would reveal anything but on this particular moment because there was so much sensitivity around protecting the secret of Jack's passing.

They had a stunt actor come. Do you remember this? Faintly. Yes, like there was like. But did it for Milo? Yes, there was like a photo double, but not a real photo double, but someone dressed up to sort of throw off in case there was anybody around. Oh, yes, absolutely.

Now I hear it. Yes. In the ambulance. So when I was doing that scene in the ambulance, if anybody got any footage, we shot with Milo, obviously, but then I'm trying to remember the logistics. You need to figure out who this person was and we need them on the podcast. This is our next

guest. You're absolutely right. Because that was what I was most freaked out about was seeing the parts that would say he survives the fire. Yes. Okay. So there was somebody there for certain shots. I don't remember what the logistics were exactly, but I do remember sitting with this

man in the ambulance, like doing a scene with him that wasn't Milo in case somebody, when they move, the camera or something in case somebody was able to get a shot of that because we couldn't completely locked down. Right. I think we shot it. Did we shoot that ambulance inside the ambulance in two different locations now? Like maybe it was something like the stuff we could shoot from the inside. I feel like you're right. Yes, yes, yes. I think you're right. So anything that like someone could potentially like peer in and see Milo sitting there was this other stranger. This is one of the

things we talk about about our show being difficult for a lot of people, right? But Dan Fogelman and the writers will take care of an audience in a way that is incredibly respectful even the foresight, the amount of planning we know the story, we know where it's going, we're not stumbling around in the dark, we have all these steps, we have all these steps of all these steps, to the point even of like, okay, yeah, at the end of the last

episode, we see the fire start, we're not going to wait until halfway through to get back to it, first thing, smoke, fire. Like, here's your answer. This is going to be hard, but we're going to take care of you and we'll walk you through it. Then there is a bit of a head fake that must have had... I remember Rachel even being like...

She was starting to let go. She was starting to release, like, he dies in the fire. And then he doesn't die in the fire. And she's like... And then you've got like 10 minutes of everybody in the other future storyline. saying my father died on Super Bowl Sunday 20 years ago.

You're like, how my... You're so close. You're like, what happened? Yeah, yeah. I just, I remembered that little detail and I was like, gosh, that was so strange because it wasn't often that we had to employ those kind of tactics.

I have a memory. I have one picture of it somewhere, but I have a memory of that. We shot out at this ranch, and they literally, it was... Our show was not like a high budget in terms of production value show. On occasion, we would do something big

at the Hollywood Bowl or go to Vietnam. But for the most part, it was beautifully shot scenes inside rooms. But they built the structure of the house out on this ranch out in... Like Lancaster, right? Yeah, I forget the name of the ranch. But they built, basically, built the house to burn it down.

This is also, you said, because there's a couple of different houses that the Pearson's way, and we realized that you had to change structurally. Yeah, one that didn't have a balcony. It was a balcony. There was things, and it was like, so they built it and then basically burned it fake. And then I just remember, I remember stepping through it with Milo. And I think, oh, this is going to be awesome because the guys and Milo are taking it.

so seriously that it's going to be very real. I remember being really struck by Hannah, this little girl who we'd plucked out of nowhere with barely an audition process, who was now an 18-year-old who could emote like that. And I didn't know that she had that in her. And that made it so visceral and real. And then I just remember Mandy, it was freezing. I remember we had a little heated tent and Mandy was just sitting and reading Joan Didion as her family homeburned. She was just reading Joan Didion by herself. And I took a picture of it. I was like, Mandy is just like, she's all turned out, like screaming, weeping, her house is burning down.

And then she's just reading Joan Didion off on the side in a heated tent. And I remember it was like four in the morning. Wait, can I tell you my favorite part of this whole episode? Because it had been so much pent-up emotion, so much build-up. And I remember the scene of going to Miguel's house and telling him that Jack had died and the kid, you know, having to go and like tell the kids and stuff. And, you know, Dan, you would come occasionally, obviously for this episode, I feel like you were around a lot because it was just so important.

But I remember you coming up to me afterwards because you were like, we should do something from it. You were telling Jake, your assistant. Like, we should do something for Mandy. Like, this has been a lot. Like, this has been really trying. And his suggestion was to get me a clown.

Yeah, we were, we were, we were, Jake was with me for all of this as us. I just, I came over to set. Maybe I'd just told the, I'd been watching Mandy, like, cry for two weeks. Two or three weeks because of just all the scenes. And she was, and I went to say goodbye.

It was like two in the morning. And she was sitting in a little guest room of the house waiting for her next scene. And she was still just, like, heaving from the sobs of what you, as they were moving the cameras. And I went, Mandy, I'll see you tomorrow. She's, oh, great, thank you for everything. And I'm walking down the street, and Jake's walking out. And they're like, we got to send flowers or do something from Mandy. Like, the poor girl has just been crying for three weeks.

And we just walked in silence down this suburban street. And Jake goes, what if we sent her a clown? And I was like, what? And he goes, like a clown to her trailer. And I was like, Jake, I'll see you tomorrow. We're not sending Mandy more a clown. I really wish you had done that. I would have done that.

Sally would have dressed up for you. You would dress me up. Pretty wise comes to me. Every day I'd be like, thanks for all your hard work. Every day I would look at the call shit. Like, what's today shooting? And they're like, oh, Mandy eats the candy bar and sees Jack dead. I'm like, okay.

And then I'd be like, what's the next day? She tells her children they've lost their father. I was like, what's the next day? Like, she tells Miguel that his best friend is dead. And it was like every day was like this relentless siege of emotion on her. Oh, God. She tells Miguel to suck it. You suck it up.

Let's stay with the the day of the fire because it is sort of like the crux of the episode. They decide that he needs to go to the hospital. They decide to drop the kids off at Miguel and they go there. And the doctor played by Bill Irwin who is, shout out to Bill Irwin,

who's absolutely wonderful. Yeah. We could have said him. We could have sent Bill Irwin. That would have been really appropriate, full circle. That would have been a very full circle moment. He's sort of remarking it how, like, you know, you did take in a lot of smoke, but you seem to be doing fine, et cetera. Yeah, they're really going for his hand to the hospital.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, right. It's like third degree or whatever. We've got to make sure that that's okay. Conversation between husband and wife and what Dan was saying earlier, like, you're kind of awesome. You come, you know, super and everything. He's like, ah, you know, I try. Da-da-da-da-da. And hungry, people are hungry.

I'm going to go to the vending machine. You know, he's like, no chocolate and nothing great. Cool. And then he says, you know, babe or Beck or what have you. And he goes, you stand in front of TV. And she's like, oh, ho-ho. So she goes to candy bar. You're on the phone with Miguel?

I'm on the phone with Miguel. And then I'm on the phone with, like, a hotel, I believe, like trying to... Is that what I was happening, setting up where you guys are going to stay for the night? Yeah. And this is John and Glenn were talking about this shot. And I don't know if everybody... I didn't know how they did this. I didn't know how they did it either.

But it was a blue screen. behind her and so as she's on the phone in real time in slow motion everybody is running into Jack's room or running around trying to figure out what's going on so it's this real like I don't know if I even paid attention to it the first time but like as I was watching I was like oh that's it causes this it's just regulating yeah yeah yeah she's in real time and everything else is going to slow down so then Bill Irwin comes out I want to spend a good portion of time because you you try not to take

your flowers, but you need to receive these flowers. You need to just take this shit and don't, like, unfold you. We will get a clown to bring you flowers to your house. Unfold your arms and say, and receive this. Because, because this. So Bill's, Dr. Irwin, I don't know if the doc's name is like, listen, something happened, you know, he took in a lot of smoke and he's not going to make it. like he what have you he didn't mean and she's like what are you talking about like i was just

talking to him like you can see in her head like he just told me to move in front of the tv because he was watching the soubo because elway finally got his thing like what and she gives him a look she takes a bite of this this candy bar yeah and it's like in complete and total disbelief like i don't and she gives him a look like bro you need to back up so i could go talk to my husband Like, Jack, you're never going to believe what this guy's talking about. Well, yeah, I just remember thinking, like, this is so awful. Yeah. Like, you're talking to the wrong person.

Like, you don't remember who I am. We were just having a conversation, like, this is so wrong that you're doing this. I'm just, we were just here for a burn, and you're giving the wrong person this news. And, like, it just, I was, you know, I just remember cycling through, like, this is inappropriate. This is unprofessional. and just off, you know what I mean? Like, there's just so much swirling around the coming down from the adrenaline of what we just lived through, like, that it felt so impossible that this man would be delivering

this news to someone in that fashion, so casually. I think that it was Mandy's take, too. I think just all that was on the script was kind of like, he tells her this news and she kind of has a, like, what the fuck are you talking about reaction? He goes into the room to prove that that's not the case. And what Mandy added was her. was like the take, if I'm, if I remember correctly, which is like, there's something really wrong about this person. So, like, getting this so wrong that they're telling the wrong person.

And she, like, she kind of says at one point, I think, like, can somebody tell this person to get away from him? And it was like, and that was not, I don't think that was scripted. I think that was all, Mandy, just on the way to the door filling that space of like, oh, that's her take on what this is. It's a doctor giving somebody the wrong information. It was, it makes the switch so cool. So between, because you, because you wrote it, and clearly you wrote it because you literally have her reference the moment before, it's like, I was eating the can.

It is the acting highlight of This Is Us. As far as I am concerned. We were in agreement. To be able to play those things simultaneously, right? And like, the bite of the bar was just like, I'm eat my candy bar, bro. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. To see you walk into the room,

And then we as an audience get a chance to see his reflection in that glass pane as you just sort of like it hits. You know what I'm saying? It's like an elephant sometimes when it turns. It's like he tried to tell you. And then you have to see that shit. And you're like, it's like when I watch, just real quick, at the end of Captain Phillips, when Tom Hanks is having his thing in the jigger, there's moments that you look at as an actor and you go like, oh, that's an interesting take. That's an, I would have done it different. Then you see certain takes and I was like, I don't know how he did that.

Don't, yeah, it's like a magic trick. That's one in a moment. You're two kinds, two kinds. That's the last time we'll mention it. That's it. Thank you, please. I've been sitting on it since this episode, because I had to let people know. They think you just like a pop singer or something like that.

They think you just do covers umbrella. This boots be putting in one, Jack! I went there for the filming of that, and I mean, I completely agree. And I went there for the filming of it. I remember it was only, they only did, we only did two takes, I believe, of that big, the big walk, not the conversation, we built, but the big walk in and the reaction to Milo, I think it was two takes. Yeah. And I was like, oh, that's, that's the best thing in the show and that's going to be like an iconic moment of television. Like, I was like, that's really crazy.

And it's just all just, it's a single shot on Mandy. I mean, it's just like, literally just a heart up against the doorframe. And I was like, oh, that's unbelievable. I remember realizing in a real time. And I remember I had driven down to that hospital. And I was like, it was so intense. and I saw the second take. I said, bye, guys, I'm going back to the writer's room.

Like, it was like, I was like, oh, I don't, there's nothing else to do here today. Like, yeah, it was nuts. I think it was this, this is the moment where I realized, like, yeah, this is a family drama. And there's these great romances in this show. But this was the moment where I was like, this is a show about this woman's life. Yeah. Yeah. Like, and the things that she has been through to try and keep this family together.

Yeah. And it's, and it's, it just, everything became clear in that moment. I agree. I think also, one of the, like, the theoretical things about this being the Super Bowl and on the Super Bowl and then I really wanted the Super Bowl was like, in a family drama that doesn't have a lot of, like, it's not like a who done it, right? Yeah. I was like, the death of the Patriot in that moment for Mandy, that's our Super Bowl, right?

It doesn't get any bigger than that, right? It's like, kind of a line in the new project we're doing, but John Rico, who always says It was his life at full volume was an expression he always used that I liked and I've used I've stolen from him. I was like, that's it. That's one of the, that's, this fan for, you know, that's the moment. That will forever be the most, the biggest moment in their life. Well, yeah, it's like before and after.

It's that just like indelible moment experience. And she's there alone. She holds it alone. Like nobody else was there. Nobody else saw it happen. Nobody, you know what I mean? It's such a, it didn't see it happen. Right.

I mean, that's the whole crux. Yeah. I mean, for me, I was, so, like, you know, you use your experience. And I was, my mom, my mom passed away when I was, like, 30. And, but she had a surgery that wasn't supposed to be life-threatening, and it went backwards, sideways. And she, she was in the ICU for a couple days, but never woke up from the surgery. And I kind of stayed vigil at the hospital for, like, three or four days, like playing martyr, refusing to leave, sleeping there, eating there. And it was a surgery I'd arranged.

It was a whole horror show. But it was like 2 o'clock in the morning, and I had the experience of like just being woken up by the doctor, like shaking my shoulder as I slept on like a couch in the ICU telling me she was gone. And it was singularly lonely and bizarre. It was my, you know, in my life thus far,

it's been my moment, you know, along with birth of kids and weddings and stuff. But like, but it was like I remember being struck by, that's where some of the stuff was born out of like, I wasn't eating a chocolate bar, but I remember that day I had given myself a break and went down to a local, like sports bar, walked out of the hospital,

went to a sports bar and had, like, a burger at a bar and watched the NCAA tournament was on TV and I gave myself an hour because there was just nothing. And I just, like, that haunted me for a great long time that I'd left that day, even though there was nothing doing, I wasn't saying. You know what I mean?

And so it was born out of that, fun stuff. You know what? So, like, make a joke quick. No, no, no, I'm trying. Yeah, I'm trying, dude. That's the rinse, but like, we don't need the rinse right now because, I mean, what we do,

Dan, and what you do so beautifully is you try to take your pain and you show that it is a shared experience, that this thing that happened to you in a very personal and specific way is not foreign to other people's very specific pain as well. And when they get a chance to see that other people have gone through it too, they feel less lonely. You know what I mean?

I think so, but I'm not doing it with that intent. I mean, honestly and truly is like, you just write, if you're willing to dig in dig in and write your stuff, then you hope that other people, it's not like, I'm going to do this so that other people can relate to it. Of course everybody's had those moments in their lives, right? So that's a byproduct of the show being done well by all the actors and all the other writers and whatnot is like, everybody's writing about their own human experience and hopefully

a part of it connects with people, this show did. That was like the real gift of this show. The reaction to the show will forever be different than any other show we ever do because everybody related to moments and there are. own lives in their family. Right, right, right. Go ahead. No, please.

No, no, no. Listen, I talk too much on the show. You keep us on track because your mind can hold this information. Better than ours can. Yes. Soli and I are thinking about lunch. Chop salad with the avocado, definitely with the avocado. After you leave the hospitals, do you go to see the kids?

To see Miguel and tell them, yes. And to tell them. And you tell Miguel first. Yes. Well, besides the clowns, story now I can't no it was it's just like this there was so much pressure for this whole episode because it's like there's just so much to carry and so much to carry and I wasn't a mom yet so I didn't know what that meant but I could imagine and telling his best friend and it's just also unthinkable

but she has to rise to the occasion in that moment and like try try to keep her wits about her and recognize that like she has to be strong for them and I love that like she goes to tell Miguel and he starts to break down and she's like no no no no like you you cannot do that we both can't do that right now because I have to go and like ruin my children's life right now and I don't need to like be taking care of you on top of it like such a such a tricky moment for John too yeah like people still haven't quite gotten to know who Miguel is but they know but they know where this is going yeah so this moment where you're like, hey,

no, no, no. It's such a tricky moment emotionally for him. Yeah. And you. It's one of my, that's one of my other, that's one of my probably 10 favorite scenes in the series because that scene with Huerta and Mandy, because it's, it's a very clear if you step back

from the series and watch it, that's the moment that Rebecca becomes, like, the lead of the family and the lead of the show. And that scene, up until now, She's been the dutiful, sometimes unhappy younger wife, a kind of unhappy-ish matriarch in older age of the family. He's kind of lonely and sad. And in the second marriage, it's quieter.

But you haven't seen, this is the start of the chapter where she takes over a family without the kind of de facto guy who's always assumed the leadership position of the family and becomes the hero of the story. And it's very clearly happens in that scene. Like, that's a different character from then on out. And there's something so comforting

about the structure of this show, too, because you can show these moments, right? These shifts in the story when it becomes Rebecca's story. And you're like, oh, this is about her life, the things that have happened literally before and after the passing of her husband. And there's something comforting in the structure of it, too, even being a part of the performance of it, where in the storyline of Kate and Toby in this episode, it's a tape on a thing on a day for Toby.

Yeah. Because I don't have a lot of context, still figuring out the story. But it also didn't happen to him. There's a little bit of a removal there. And it's just interesting for me, watching it now, to remember that even the biggest things, the biggest tragedies, the biggest traumas, the biggest, eventually just become part of my story. Yeah. Right?

And they don't mean the same thing to other people. people and they don't have the same effect on other people even if they've also experienced them and it's just it it's it's oddly comforting to be reminded of that you know what i mean to watch in one episode of television this insane tragedy but to also watch people be okay yeah in the future and to know that they're okay right and to know that they have children and families and whatever those things are it's it's it's one of the it's one of my favorite things about the structure of the way you put this show together. That's part of the time jump, right?

Like, you get to see the other side that you can't picture on the day. You know, like, it's like after you experience great loss, you're hard pressed to even imagine you'll ever be happy again, let alone be able to talk about a person who's gone in a way without it making you burst into tears. But that is the human condition. You will, even if you can't see it.

And this show, because you get able to jump 20 years, it gives you the ability to make them work hand in hand. It was like the great magic trick of the time jump. Yeah. So cool. I don't have to talk. Sterling. We can't do the rest of this podcast like this.

So this is a thing. Just so you know what's going on here. People tell me I talk too much on this podcast. And they'd love to hear more things from Mandy and Chris because they have very, like, insightful and wonderful things to say, especially on an episode. Who tells you that? We don't think, we don't think this is multiple people. We think this is right.

It's definitely right. She's Ryan. Why are you out there talking in front of the shit? Listen. Because we know she doesn't listen to this. I think, okay. I do want to say this. Okay, so I'll say this.

And I'll cue you up because you guys, Mandy, because you ask Allison to leave, you go in and you tell the kids. And I think that shot montage. Yes, it is. Right. But the thing that's really powerful and sort of that I relate to in a really interesting way. And it wasn't on the day because this happened on the day, but it was the shot of you in the car in front of the house,

just giving yourself permission to lose it by yourself. Yeah. Because you couldn't give yourself that permission in front of everybody else, right? Especially, Miguel. When my mom was on the phone trying to call the paramedics for my dad when I was 10 years old, right? It was one of the first times that I had seen her cry. Like, my mom was not a big crier, you know what I'm saying? And getting him ready and then, you know, he ultimately didn't come back into the house

But for me, like I, it was this, as a kid who was younger than the Pearson's, like at age 10, not 30, not 17, but 10, it was this surreal sort of thing of like, oh, mom's crying. We can't have everybody crying in our house altogether. And I was always taught as a Christian, well, he's in a better place. So I'll just go ahead and skip the whole grieving part and just be like, well, he's in a better place, right? I even remember going to the funeral. And one of the reasons why I want to be cremated, when people say he looks so good, I always say,

no, he's dead, he's not there. His nose has been plucked all the way out. I can see straight up his nose. His skin is not the color that it normally was. And you ever touch the body, like at the funeral? it's ice cold. And I was like, oh, he looks so good. No, he's gone.

The shell is there. You know what I'm saying? But he's gone. So I'm relating to this moment because like at age 15, 16 of him being gone. And going from Kelby to Sterling was coincided of this moment of just like bawling. And I was like, oh, he's not coming back six years later, bro. Yeah. I get that.

Like, he's not coming back. And the thing that allowed Kim to stay present was being Sterling. Like, it was like, Kelby is gone. Or Kelby served me for 16 years. I need to hear this name one more time. And I was just by myself. And I was just like, oh. But that's what it reminded me of because it's like, it takes a second.

Whether you're doing it for other people or not, but like just even for yourself. Like grief is a necessary. thing. Yeah. Right? If you push it off eventually, you're gonna have to go through it. But like to what you're just saying, Chris, there's something on the other side of it. And while it's hard to even fathom, there's something quite beautiful, maybe not as beautiful, maybe a different kind of beauty, but something beautiful on the other side of it if you give yourself permission to keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. It was more about setting you up for like crying in the car.

No, no, no. That was something that we shot, I think, for the first episode, right? It was like 201, that was the last shot of that episode. I believe it was just the same shot. I think it's just how did we get back to that? Wait, you shot that during the pilot? Or during the first episode?

It was shown during 201. Oh, that's right. You remember that you sort of saw the flash at the end. You're like, wait, what? But this is how did we get to that point? Exactly. Marrying that all together. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm now having flashbacks of you on those two weeks, like walking around base can. Just like a zombie. It was a lot, man. Looking like, yeah, war-torn. Oh. My favorite thing was, we were shooting all night at the, the, God, just revealing all this like, BTS stuff.

But I guess that's what people want to hear about, right? Come on. We were shooting all night, doing all the fire stuff, and so you'd get home at 5, 6 a.m. or whatever. We were living in a rental house at that point. And I came home, and I, like, took a shower. I was getting ready to go to bed. and there was a party still happening next door.

And I was so, I think, just completely, like, just over-emotional about everything. Like, I was such a raw little vulnerable exposed nerve that I woke my husband up. And I was like, there's a party going on next door. I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And like, when I get there, I get there. I'm in my glasses. pajamas and I go over and I like pound on the door and I'm just like vibrating with anger at this it's like the sun hasn't come up but it's about to come up and I'm like what the fuck is somebody

doing like still playing like crazy house music and this like scared looks like young 20s guy like opens the door and I was like do you know what fucking time it is like I just laid into this kid and he was like shaking look at me and I was like some people have to work some people are going to sleep. Like, this isn't appropriate. Like, I'm calling the police next. My house just burned down. Totally. My husband just died. He had no idea. I'd never met this person. This wasn't my home. I didn't know who he was, but I just remember, like, walking back into the house and my husband looking at me, like, who was? Like, who was that? But that just spoke to, I feel like, what I was living in at that moment of, like, filming this episode. I was just so overextended. So that's, when I

think back to making this episode of television. I think of all those little moments of just like... And that guy shut the door and turned to the part. It's like, guys, you're not going to believe who was just here. You are not going to believe what just happened. He had no idea. Here's my BTS question because I feel like there has to be a natural amount of intrigue because I feel a need to ask the question because I'm intrigued in terms of the strange

sort of parallel of life-imitating art that you've recently just gone through. Yeah. Rebecca has a line when she's sitting in the, in the EMT, what, not talking to Jack, and she says, guys, it's just a house. Yeah. And Randall says, but it was a really good house. Yeah. And knowing what we know in terms of you and Milo both. I know. My. Having just lost your homes or whatnot, like what, what sort of reverberations do you have of having gone through that in life and having done it on the show, are the emotions similar, completely different? Like, I know it's night and day

in terms of the actual experience, but I'm curious. It's strange. I mean, I think about Milo a lot, and I just cannot believe, you know, just the, yeah, the parallel nature of this. It's, without getting into a hole, you know, rabbit hole, we, when this all went down, we had two neighbors call us and tell us

that our house was gone. Our media next door neighbor and neighbors behind us, both of whom lost their houses. And so we had to digest that. And I remember looking at Taylor and echoing that same sentiment. I'm like, it's just a house. It's just stuff. It's okay.

We're safe. Like our family's here. Our pets are here. Like, we're okay. And I truly felt that way. And I still feel that way. Even though the structure of our house is intact, everything inside of it is a total loss,

which again, I feel that way. I'm like, okay, it is just stuff. And I feel selfish saying that because it still exists in a weird way. And I have passed no judgment on people that obviously, like, I don't feel that same attachment to things that I know people do to their stuff. I'm like, we just moved in a year ago. Like, it's just a couch. But I totally understand that everybody has different attachments to their own personal things.

But it was strange, like, thinking back now that, like, That is totally how I felt in the moment. Like, it's, it is what it is. Like, it's just stuff. But, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, all very strange. I just had to ask. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. It's crazy. I digress. We'll be right back with more. That was us. correct your child's vision, they slow down the progression of myopia. So your child can continue

to discover all the world has to offer through their own eyes. Light the path to a brighter future with stellar lenses for myopia control. Learn more at SLOR.com and ask your family eye care professional for SLR Stellist lenses at your child's next visit. I'm about to go on a trip with the family gang. We're going down under. It's going to be the first time that we as a You're talking about Australia? I'm talking about Australia. We as a family are going down under for the first time. I'm very, very excited about it.

I'm already planning everything. Trying to figure out what we're going to do. If we're going to go see some crocodiles and kangaroos and all that kind of stuff. And we're also trying to figure out where to stay. Hey, I have an idea. What do you got? You should get an Airbnb. You think so?

Hotels can be fine, all right? But nothing beats having a full place to yourself, especially when traveling with a family like yours or a group. Now, there's no fighting over. who gets the last hotel keycard or squeezing into one room with all your bags everywhere. God, and don't get me started on those tiny hotel mini-fridges. Don't stop. I love knowing that I'm going to have a place that actually feels like home, especially if I need to pack specific things for my little ones,

not to get too heavy, but we were displaced from the fires, and we relied on Airbnb. We moved from Airbnb to Airbnb all over this city of Los Angeles over the last couple of weeks, And I'm so grateful because you can get specific. You can get granular about exactly what you need. Like with little ones, if they have a crib or a pack-and-play or toys, making sure there's not a staircase. I love Airbnb. It makes you feel like you're staying at home.

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How do we finish in that, the day of the fire? What's the last thing? I know we wind up telling Kev, young Kev, does Kate wind up going to see him on that day? She knocks on the window of the corner. She's like, I have to be the one to, he has to hear it from me. Yeah. And he goes through that, but like, what's the cap on the day?

I think it's montage. But it was just, it was a montage checking in on everybody. in present day being all right, basically. And as you're also, like, it was just all to music and montage. So then we can address each individual thing. Toby and Kate, Kate on the day of the Super Bowl, every time she takes out this tape that was recorded. God, the reverberations of things that you have throughout episodes,

like it is really quite lovely because there's sort of these tent pulse. Like, I remember, like, it's like, I remember when Jack said, like, I'm going to record this. and this girl, you're gonna love it and everything like that. And then she got really mad and said, like, Dad, what are you doing? And then at the end of that episode, she's like, please don't stop seeing me the way that you see me.

Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, I remember that as I'm watching her, watch that and this is what I do. And Toby's trying to be like, you know, do you want to do anything fun of lifting? She's like, no, just let me do my thing. And he's like, well, why is it, how come I ever hurt the song? Oh, that's because it's the day my dad died and it's pretty tough. She's like, I'm a shut up. Like, leave it alone, right?

That's how she spends the day. We see Rebecca and Kev at your house. And he's talking about, you ask him what he normally does. He says, I find a model. I try to get blackout drunk and make love to him. And that's how I spend the day. It sounds kind of, you know, not the great. That's what Kevin says, not Rebecca.

That's not what Rebecca does. Rebecca says, you know what, I make your dad's favorite lasagna. I, you know, prep it from top to bottom or whatever. I sit there. I watch the Super Bowl and I eat it. And I wait for a sign. I wait for him to give me a little sign at some point throughout the day. Yes.

I tell Miguel to leave. Miguel normally just gives her space. It gives her space, right? Do you want to know one of the Miguel things that, oh, you always talked about in the room, but like, Mandy never takes off that necklace, the moon necklace, you know? Yeah. And like, what about, like. When they're knocking room?

Is that thing just, is that thing just hitting him in the head? And that was always our. Whenever you felt really bad for Miguel, you just thought about that, like, that moon necklace just pinning him in the head. It's sharp, too. Well, I was the love that you have, Rebecca, like, on top. Yeah, yeah. That was a big. That was always, like, when we were like, I'd be like, hey, let's give Miguel a good scene, like, make everybody really love him.

It's not really, it's not really natural for the scene. I'm like, but think about the necklace. We got to give it to them. We have to give it. We have to give it. It's only cowboy. It used to be all missionary with Jack But since it's fish

Sterling We know how the necklace got there We know what position they would have to be Sterling K. Brown This is a G-rated podcast I just said cowboy and missionary That's not that bad Okay

Ryan's gonna be like I told you you were talking to my See? Too much talking Wait and then And then Randall, can we get to Randall with his hot dad apron? They contrasted because they say like, no, not everybody is like, because Kev's like everybody's so depressingly sad.

Not everybody. And it's funny because you're saying this. And I remember reading the episode and I was like, okay, so it's Randall gets to be sort of like relief in this particular episode because things are so heavy. So I'm like, if I'm too big, then they'll just tell me to dial it down. You know what I'm saying? I was like, I'm going to go for whatever I think. is going to be fun. And I tickle myself. Like, honestly, I like watching Randall.

Yeah. And I'm like, he is so ridiculous with everything. And like you see Sue watching me and they're like, bro, what are you doing? Like, this is for 20 little girls who could care less about the Super Bowl. He's like, this was my dad's favorite day, right? My sister wants to wallow, my brother wants to like, you know, forget. I want to celebrate. Like, this is a day of celebration for me and my pops, I'm gonna go at it, right? And Faith has a lizard, the little lizard, right? Mr. McGiggles. Thank you, Mr. McGiggles, right?

And Mr. McGiggles gets lost. But that's just touching in with those two. How does Kate and Toby's progress throughout their time? The VCR eats the tape that we were talking about earlier. Yeah. And Toby, they take the whole machine into a repair shop to get the tape extracted and repaired. And, yeah, that is the storyline for their day, which is Toby getting really his first

kind of inside look into the story. Sure. And why. But also getting to be a hero. He saves the day. For his wife, yeah. Absolutely. Or soon to be wife.

That was the thing about this episode, too, which was like, it was unusual structurally because, you know, you're on network TV, you have 42 minutes of time. And I begged them, and I think they gave us an extra two minutes. or so. Okay. But with all that story happening in the past of like the eight minute opening and then like these big long scenes of Mandy seeing the body, there was a lot of past. So I only had room for like three beats in each of like Justin's story, Randall's story, Sully's story. Like there wasn't a lot as much real estate as we normally have. It's 46 minutes. Yeah. I remember that was a big thing like begging for extra minutes of time because we just couldn't I couldn't do everything I wanted to do in

one episode. Yeah. So Rebecca makes her lasagna. Yeah. Right? She watches the Super Bowl. What is the sign that she receives? Kevin. It's Kevin. Yeah. Because he comes. Well, Kev also goes to the tree.

The dad's tree. It's almost like, Kev reminds me a lot of Sterling. Let us be clear. Each tree is probably a different tree that we use throughout the course. Because one of them was actually in Memphis, Tennessee. You know what I'm saying? Listen, Jack loved all kinds of trees. But him having this moment of being like,

just sort of, I miss you, and connection rather than sort of being distant and separating himself from it, but just sort of like feeling the loss and allowing that, that's kind of like what it felt like after six years for me. It was a really lovely moment. Does he, and does he call you on the phone? What happens in that conversation? He, well, he tells me that, like, that I was really strong for all of them, basically just, like, giving me props, I guess.

that, and I say that I had to wrap myself around you guys to protect you, I tried, but your dad didn't have to try. I think about, thinking about the candy bar and just talking about how, you know, explaining, like, I can't, I wasn't there in that moment because I was eating a stupid candy bar. And then just allowing him, like, the fact that I think, because he'd been living with Miguel and Rebecca, like, this year, the sign was you. This year, like, the time that we've spent the connection that we're forging, like that, that's all your dad. Yeah. Well, he also says She says that every year he sends an unexpected laugh her way and she knows it's from him. And then Justin calls and tells her the story how he finally spoke to his dad at the tree.

And then he's like, Mom, can I tell you something else? And you say, yeah, what? And he says, I'm not sure I was at the right tree. And she laughs. And that's like, I always loved when we did phone calls on the show. Yeah. Because it is how we communicate so often with our immediate family as we get older. We're not always all living in the same place.

Kevin and Rebecca are just always on such different wavelengths in adulthood at this up in until this point. I loved that scene. I loved watching Justin do that. I remember at that tree because it's like so not in Justin as an actor's comfort zone or Kevin as a character's zone

to be like talking to the spirit of your dead father at a tree like earnestly. And Justin plays it so well because he's uneasy with it. Kevin's uneasy with it. And it's like it's he kind of I watched it this morning that scene and he like he trails off on scripted dialogue.

The line was like, I've become a man that you wouldn't have been very, I haven't become the man that you would have been very proud of. And Justin just goes, like, I haven't become the man that, and he just leaves it there because he's, like, struggling to say it. And it's, like, very effective, like, the way, like, and then that phone call is so quiet and so intimate. Between them, I just, I love those scenes in it.

And I loved Sully's final scene in the episode with Chrissy, where she's saying how lost she was, and she never thought that happiness would be something on the table for her. And that, like, what she's found in it with him and the way Sully sits and listens to her in that scene and that it's just it and undercuts it just enough but there's like such sweetness to it and so it's so simple i really love those scenes you didn't change my life you saved my life and he would have loved you like in reference to her dad i loved that too she says this big guy i was watching it this morning and this big guy came into my life at a support group and so he's going like like and it's like just does enough to like make it so this

isn't getting too earnest it's like it's really my job and then and then and then and then At the end goes, it was probably, she just goes, I'm always crying. And it's like such a sweet way of undercutting the scene I was watching this morning, and I don't think that was scripted. That's awesome. And then, so with Randall and Beth and the girls. I take it structurally off, and it's fucking up Sterling.

No, no, no, no, no, no, that's great. But what you're saying, what you're saying is also, it's such an interesting moment in the show, too, because for us as actors, like that moment you talk about with Chris, I'm always crying. I don't think that was scripted. No. talking about chrissey and kate character and like and this is kind of the point in the show where we all

just like and fully in there's no question about who we are there's no question about where we've been all these questions have been answered and everyone can can fully like inhabit these characters in a way that that it just the line is now blurred between sterling and randall and chris and do it You feel how comfortable I was in watching and skimming the middle and then watching the ends, you feel how comfortable all you guys are. And it's like, it's so natural that it's almost turned into something else. Like, it's like the way Justin's not completing sentences or the way you and Chris, you're looking, the way Sterling and Susan are being funny with one another.

And then you know Randall's going to crack at some point. Like, it all is just very, like, it's so natural that it was like, I think that was when we were really hitting our stride in that level. And we talked about that with John and Glenn, too. Like, and the support that you gave us and the creative support that they gave us as directors, like, it just felt, it just, we had ownership over the lives of these characters in a way that felt really special. Yeah. Sterling? What's it?

Do you want to talk about finish with Randall and Beth's story as well? Sure, no, no, absolutely. And then we could jump to the future. Yeah, let's do that. Mr. McGiggles gets out of his cage. Is that the name of the lizard? Yes. I just love it.

Okay. All right. So Mr. McGiggles is just straight face. He's escaped. He gets out of his cage. Mr. McGiggles is out. And everybody's looking for him. Beth winds up stepping on.

That's right. At the birthday party. And you hear the squish. And she said, like, she comes back into the room. Second best acting moment in the series. It's pretty day. Damn good. She says, I found Mr. McGoole. He's in the kitchen. I said, oh, thank God. Her head goes up, her eyebrows go up, and her voice, mm-hmm. She said, he ain't giggling no more.

He ain't giggling no moment. So this is an interesting thing, too, because we decide to have this little eulogy that Randall's going to have for him. And this is where the edit is really powerful. And even in the conversation and the parallel I got to say, this is really strange for Sterling at this point in time in life where dad had a heart attack and on that day, and my mom has ALS and has been living with it. And the whole thing is about how, like, I've experienced death and sometimes it happens suddenly

and sometimes it happens over a course of time or whatnot, you know? And you can say it's going darker than what it needs to be for these 20 young girls, so Beth steps in. But, like, it's a moment of, like, him just sort of, you know, feeling it, right? And this whole time, Tess is going through. I guess we got, I go back one sec because just surrounded by women all the time. And Randall's like, we need a boy in here. Like, we're trying to open up to be foster parents again.

And there's a quick cut to this little boy, Jordan, right, who's just adorable. And he's talking to his social worker. And we're like, oh, Randall's about to get this little boy in the house. It's going to be great, right? So then we go, Tess is sort of like peering in on things and watching what's going on, listening to her mom on the phone, et cetera. And at one point in time, she like goes upstairs and it's just sort of out of sorts. And dad goes to follow her and is like, what's going on with you? And she's talking about how, you know, it seems like you're really excited to be fostering or whatnot.

And it seems as if like we're not enough. Like you're trying to buy buildings, you're trying to foster other kids. Like, I thought that we were going to be enough. And I tell this to my son, like, all the time. And you know the words better than I do. But I was like, it wasn't until you came that I essentially had the privilege of calling myself a dad. Right. And it's way more poetic than this.

And I hate that I'm not remembering, like, these lines because there's something really beautiful that I say to her. And I wouldn't be who I am without you. So please know that you are more than enough, right? So we throw to the future now. And what we think is this little boy who's about to start coming to black people. We don't realize it's the future, by the way. We just think it's another story.

Exactly. We think that there's little boys about to possibly come into the Pearson's life. And it turns out we see old Randall for the first time. A little backstory, BTS behind this. I hate the makeup for original old Randall. Hot take. I have, like, a full fucking facial thing with jaws.

It's got, like, a big wart on my neck. And, like, my wife is like, did he just let himself go? Like, what happened to Randall? I was like, the dude who runs marathons and all this shit. Yeah. Child, please. I would look at John and Glenn, and I would just be like, look, they have shots of, like, old jacket stuff,

looking like a silver fox up in this piece later on the show. Oh, Randall just like, look, I know black men don't live that long. But I was like, God, bless America, y'all are trying. And this is why. We had to, because I was very worried about the, like, I needed the audience to follow the time job. Yes. Recognize him, but we pushed it. And then I remember not being pleased with it, but knowing it was getting the job done for what I needed to get done.

And then we started pulling back on. Then we started to pull back as time went on, right? He lost a little weight. Because in this monologue, you talk about the future when you're talking to Young Tess about, one day I'll pick you up, and we'll go to lunch. That's right. Right.

And he does pick her up from work. And so, and like, casting, that was crazy. Is insane. Because Ayantha, who plays older Tess, who was the social worker that we didn't realize was actually my daughter, right? Looks so much like heirs. Yeah, yeah.

who plays Tess, that it's like when people watch it and then they go back and they're like, you put her right in front of our face. And we had no, which is, see, now this is something you enjoy to do. I do. That was particularly, when we found her, I was like, oh, this is gonna really, really work.

That was cool. Yeah, it was fantastic. And so it's the first time that we jumped. This is like Lost Season 4 when they have the flash forward, right? We introduce like a whole new, new time period right and everybody's and then throughout the next period of time we will jump to this period of time and everybody's now guessing who's made it who hasn't and who are they going to see yes do you say we have to go see her we have to go see her she says i'm not ready yeah right

is that 214 that's 214 that was a 214 yeah so and that's pretty much she'll watch the show so it's great No, it happens again in 218, right? We did a lot of those flashwords. Oh, wait. Is it 218 to 214? It happened. No, no, it's 214 as well. This is part of-

It definitely happens in 218. It does happen in 218. And so it must have been in both episodes. Maybe. Yeah, it is. Okay. It absolutely is. I watched the show, Dan.

So the point is, I watched the show a lot. I didn't mean to insult you. So you take the swings, right? You pay off the question that people have been asking for the past two seasons. and then expertly introduce something else for them to think about. Are we at a place? I'm curious because I've even had this conversation with Dana Walden

where just the story itself is not enough to get people in. Like, you have to have, like, the extra hook. You know, I don't know. I mean, I think that you definitely, the extra hook doesn't hurt if it's natural to your show propulsion. Sure. And, like, in this era where there is a lot of, things competing for attention like can beautiful only hold people anymore yeah you'd like to think

it could but it's but you do need i mean if you look at succession as an example of a show that's kind of cut through like that was a family thing but then they had like they had this looming question of who's going to win who's going to succeed the father they had a murder in the first season like you know what i mean like and you do it's hard you know you look at the shows that are successful right now you know, severance, White Lotus, you know, Arne's show. Yeah. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a propulsion, there's a propulsion and often a mystery to them that is making it audiences demand to go click on them.

And it's like, and we had that in a very surprising genre. Yeah. And we tried to keep it going throughout because it was something people liked about the show without it ever overwhelming, which is what secrets is Jack holding? What is the secret of the future storyline? How do all these pieces intersect? And I think we did it really successfully. It's kind of giving people the treat

to go with the medicine. And so I think that was something that was organically built into the show. Do you need it nowadays? I don't know, but it sure doesn't hurt if you have it. If you're trying to make noise, it doesn't hurt. Yeah. Dan doesn't know, because he always has it.

Just an eight. We've been kicking him with my man, Dan Folgman. We're going to keep him with us for a bit while we get into our favorite section of the show, our fans say. We'll have more. That was us right after this. And welcome back to our favorite moment of the podcast, the fan segment.

Okay, it's time for some fan questions, which, as you know, is one of our favorite parts of the show. You've got to keep it up the whole time now. And it's even better because we have Dan with us today. We do. So here's some questions that we've gotten, especially for you, Mr. Fogerman. Who wants to take the first? Question one. I'm kidding.

Dan asked me to do a voice. voice so I did a voice all right question one did the show unfold as the seasons went along or did he know how it would go from the beginning it definitely unfolded as it went along we liked to present that we had the whole thing figured out from the beginning but the truth was it unfolded every season and we would find little things and then go back like I was speaking about earlier the uh realizing we had pictures of the kids as young kids all over the show and then realizing oh it'll be good if jack grabbed some pictures from the house during the fire that is a small example of how it would like evolve.

But you did have things like, like I want to point out the foresight of catching footage of the kids when they were younger that you knew you wanted to use in season six. The finale, the series finale, yeah. So like there are things that they would shoot, like we would shoot. I remember one, like, was it in season two? Would it be like, you know, six something, da-da-da-da, and you guys would go off and shoot these things and then save this stuff for four and a half, five years to use it later? Yeah, but in reality, if I'm being honest, one of my great regrets, if I could do it all

over again is I would have done that all at the beginning of season one with those kids and with Mandy and Milo and I would have like spent six months shooting tons of stuff yeah and then that and that could boyhood style and that could have been the sixth season of the show kind of like in some ways of the backstories um I didn't have the foresight then I did it after the second or third season when we were like having great success sure even so it's like it's always a hybrid of like it wasn't all just like kind of like pre-form you also the The hugest pivot that the show made to accommodate real time was the pandemic and George Floyd.

And like you really being intentionally saying, like, I think our show has the ability to address these things and doing it while still keeping the track moving with the rest of the narrative of the show. I still have the hate mail to prove it, yeah. I'm sure. Tons. Some of my favorites. In fact, we have one right here. Dear Dan, do you know if Dan had written

an alternative way that the story could go on? As in Jack not dying so soon in the show, And if he did have him in the show longer, maybe he would have died from something else and not the after effects from the house fire. We didn't have another plan. There was, at the end of the show, there was like a little bit of conversation of, you know,

nobody really wanted it to end. I knew it needed to end. And there was a little bit of conversation about talking about the family when we get to the very, very end of the series of doing something with the family whose lives intersected with Jack at the hospital that night. Oh, yes, yes.

And maybe making a completely different family born out of the night of tragedy about who we would then go off and follow. So it would be more of a spinoff than a continuation. And at the end of the day, it's just, I was like, I don't want to do this without the guys. I kind of need to step back from family dramas. And we just couldn't quite figure out

that we had the appetite for it. I agree with that. That was the only place that it ever came on. You'd pitch that as like that family that intersected with them and like the people that moved into the house, like a house thing. We always talked about a couple of different pivots. Yeah.

Like this is us could potentially be, genre about a family with each family has their own story to tell in the lives that intersected and the mysteries of that family but i i just couldn't see a way we had hit our limit of runway with um we'd gone so deep in the future i just didn't know how to continue the story yeah all right here's one could someone please ask dan fulgerman what on earth he was trying to do to us single women because guys as a long-term fan of the show i'm telling you that jack pearson i mean all the men on the show, of course, but Jack is something else,

is one hell of a target for men to live up to. What's a woman meant to do out here in the real world? Yeah. The idealization of Jack, like, like, what were you trying to do? Like, ruin them for everybody? Yeah. I mean, the ironic part is my father, who's like a big, kind of like growing up

was like a kind of like a big Jewish James Gandalfini type. It was like, I'm Jack, right? No. Yeah, definitely. Like, I can't believe, like, I'm Jack. But that also has to do with Milo sort of stepping in, because you would have pictured him slightly different physically, right, initially? Yeah, I pictured him a little bit more, like, kind of normal, like,

like, meaning, like, just a normal, like, like, like, I pictured him kind of like me, right? But I always thought that the example I give was that... Seth Rogen turned the part down. Yeah. I pictured that the opening shot when you see his ass would be funny. You got it. And not women going like, I got to watch this trailer again and again. I thought it would be like, you know, when your wife sees like you regular guy's ass and she loves you.

And they laugh and she loves you and she laughs. But like it's not like she's like so hot that she needs you that moment. Yeah. I know that feeling. But the ironic part about Jack in those opening seasons is like he's a very flawed dude. Like I mean, this is a guy who's made decisions old school style for his family and his wife. He's like very explosive at her at times. He is an alcoholic.

He is recovered. And like, and I always struck me that like so many women would come after Rebecca and be like, be happy. He's hot and he's kind and he cares. With all the women, they'd come after Chrissy about Toby. They'd come after about being hot. About being hot. You know what I mean?

Like it was like, although it was interesting to me always that that. This was like the lens of people viewing the show that always fascinated me. They viewed the Pearson's as this perfect family. Yeah. And it's the most imperfect on paper. If you wrote it all down, like complicated, imperfect gathering of people. But the way it was filtered through people's mind as this ideal family is also true. Yes, your family is also ideal.

Every family with all of their flaws is ideal if you view it through this lens. I think part of it too is there's so few. I mean, people had a reaction to Milo in that role. So that's part of it that you cannot just, like, he was just so good in it that, like, you can't, you can't discard it. I also think the way he was written, bro, is it's his imperfection that actually makes him, like, want to get, people want to get inside more. Yeah, yeah.

His mystery, right, is draws women. And his butt, and his butt. And all the men in the show, all four of them, or five of them, were kind of, I think there was something, there's a lot of anti-hero men on TV and there's a lot of like sitcom dash, right? But like the fundamentally decent man who's deeply flawed but is trying to be good

was like a sweet spot we hit on the show with all five of our dudes, which are like, these are good people. You would frame them all as good people who are really fucked up and flawed in a multitude of ways big and small. But they're all desperate to be good. and I think you can

the television landscape is littered with those type of guys whether it's like Kyle Chandler and Friday Night Light you know what I mean? Or like that like and they're few and far between because so often it's

you know the anti-hero but it's even why people like James Gandalfini and the Sopranos I mean here was a violent mobster but like at his heart he just wanted to be the dad who like tended to the ducks

in his backyard so even that it's like people just need a kernel of somebody trying to be decent to really fall in love and then it's just the right actor and the right part yeah.

My wife Stacy and Dan went to camp together back in the day at BRDC, Blue Real Day Camp. That's funny. In the carnival episode where I believe Jack and Rebecca had their first kiss were the clown garbage cans and Easter egg for the if you know, you know, if you know. No. I wish I could say they were to make everything. So wait, tell us about this camp. What do you know if you know? What kind of camp did you go to with clown garbage cans?

There were people who dressed up like clowns at the, Like at the morning assembly, I'm trying to remember that part. A lot of clowns today. It wasn't like I went to a clown kennel. There was 100% more clown conversation than I thought there would be. That's really funny. I guess we could take this last question because it is pretty funny. If Sylvester Stallone exists in the This Is Us universe, who plays Rocky's son in the movie, Rocky Valboa from 2006?

And if it's still Milo, does that mean that Jack just the... looks a lot like Milo. There's a lot of, like, Matrix-style, like, repercussions to Sylvester Stallone being in the episode. We talked about it a lot and just went with it. Yeah, just went with it. But I got to go to Sly, when we did that episode, I got to go to Sly's house to woo him. And, you know, we got an entry point through Milo. And we got, we basically, I think he agreed to do it because he loved Milo, even though he

wasn't going to really have scenes with him in it. And his whole family and, like, kind of support stuff at his house as I was walking in was a really big deal because they were all watching This Is Us at the time. And I think they, it was unclear that how familiar he was with the show, but I think he wanted to do it to make his family happy. And it was like a very cool meeting of like driving up to Sylvester Stallone's house. It was like sitting in the house talking about doing This Us was like a really cool. That was a really cool moment.

Wow. We'll sign off. Thank you guys so much for these questions. This was great. This is our time with Dan Fogel. Is there anything? I mean, you're on to a new show right now. We get a chance to do this thing together.

In the midst of doing the new, what, if anything, do you miss of the old? I miss the show. I miss doing that show. I mean, it was so soulfully, like, deep and important to me that, you know, like, there's a difference between taking a scene in another project and say, here's something intimate from my life or my life experience. And I want that to frame a scene in the show. It's like something I always try and do. When you're actually able to say, here's something intimate from my life. life and then I'm going to actually execute that directly into a show without like not just the

themes of it or the exploration but like I'm going to like take this episode we just did and like every single character is exploring like immediate grief in a very different way right and that was like all the things I've gone through at multiple like losses in my life and I was like oh I'm going to be able to do it directly like in a hospital scene with a family and so I missed that is it pathetic it did it at the time I think in retrospect I rarely like look back of the show this morning i was rushing here and i wanted to like reorient myself to the episode so i kind of watched the first 20 minutes in the last 10 i rarely watch the show but it is like it you know i don't know how much longer like i do this or how many more shows and films i'll make

but this will always be like like it's a it was a you know up until i was 45 years old this is a it's like it's like a it's like a screenshot of my life experience in one tv show and all the people's experience who made it but like it's the closest it's the closest i won't trump you know what i mean doing that show because it was like it was my it was just writing about my life sign us off so bye guys thank you so much thanks for listening dan thank you for coming in we appreciate you thank you fans uh if you guys like it tell a friend like subscribe stay tuned for more we enjoy doing it i hope you guys enjoy listening and or watching we love you we'll see you next Bye.

Later. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da-da-da-da-dum, da-da-dum, da-da-dum, that was us.