That Was Us - The Truth Comes Out | "Forty: Part One" (501) with Jennifer C. Holmes

Episode Date: February 3, 2026

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 5, Episode 1: Forty: Part One. It’s The Big Three's 40th birthday, and everyone heads to the cabin to quarantine and celebrate the big milestone, except Randall. We also jump back to the day The Big Three were born, exploring the parallels between Jack and William’s experience as new fathers, and uncovering the powerful backstory of Randall’s birth mother, Laurel. Plus, Mandy, Chris, and Sterling chat about the shift they felt returning to set as first-time parents, what it was like filming during Covid, how the show successfully started conversations about difficult topics, and more! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: - This episode is sponsored by/brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://betterhelp.com/TWU and get on your way to being your best self. - Get Cozy Earth pajamas for you and someone you love. Head to https://cozyearth.com and use our code TWUBOGO from January 25th through February 8th. - Go to https://Leesa.com for 25% off PLUS get an extra $50 off with promo code TWU ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:32 Discussion 01:17:38 Fan Segment 01:47:39 Wrap Up Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of That Was Us, we are diving into season five, episode one, 40 part one. It's the big three's 40th birthday, and everyone heads to the cabin to quarantine and celebrate the big milestone, except Randall. We also jump back to the day the Big Three were born, exploring the parallels between Jack and Williams' experience, and uncovering the powerful backstory of Randall's birth mother, Laurel. Hello. Season five. Season 5. Holy. Can you believe how quickly?

We're flying through these. Yeah. Because we don't have no hiatus. No. Yeah. We just go. We just keep going. We're knocking out.

50 episodes a year. Yeah. Kind of. Something like that. Yeah. Guys, first of all, it's good to see you. I know. It's so happy.

I'm happy to see you. Every time, every time. Every time. I drive out here. Same. Same. Let me put it to you this way. For those who don't live in Los Angeles,

there's nothing that will make you believe less in a God than the time. 10 freeway at rush hour. Are you present? Do you exist? Yeah. But where I am going. Makes you so happy.

I'm just like cruising right along. Hell yeah. Coming to see you too. Same. You guys look good. So, I mean, the sexy is... I'm feeling good. Sterling, give me two more months and I'll be ready for my...

I'll be ready for my shower scene, Mr. Folkerman. Come on, bro. Your episode three. That's what I call it. My episode three. I'm ready for my episode three is your shower. Listen, the Yasu light goes a long way. Sure, sure, sure.

But if you don't have the goods to begin with, it doesn't matter. Speaking of the goods, Amanda Lee. Come on, Mama. Looking good, Mama. We're just like building each other up, aren't we? I'll take it. Hey, that's why I look forward to driving out here. I want to tell you guys, so right now, I'm not sure when we're air, but in real time,

I just got back from Brazil. Yes. Was doing some publicity for Season 2 Paradise. You also just got nominated. For a Golden Globe. For a Golden Globe. And a critics choice. For your 304th Golden Globe.

Yeah. I hope it is equally as special. Yeah. Because it feels special. Oh, okay, another one. Got it, got it. It's pretty awesome. It's pretty...

Congratulations. Thank you very much. I feel, as Arlene Brown would say, blessed and highly favored. Yes. And just, you know, it feels cool. It feels very good. And you've returned from Brazil.

I've returned from Brazil. Speaking of highly favored. You guys, this is us in Brazil? I heard. Yeah. The shit plays. All right. I thought I was going to walk incognito through the streets of Brazil.

Every once in a while throwing out an obrigado. Not so. Randall. The love that I received. from there, the enthusiasm, the warmth of the people. Yeah. You know, they come to give you a kiss on the cheek, or at least you touch cheeks and you're like, mm-hmm, yeah.

Nice to meet you. You just feel like warm. Wait, strangers? Yeah. I don't know how I feel about the cheekness with strangers. No. No. No.

Man, he doesn't. My children gave me a cold. I'm not kissing a stranger. Not during cold and the season. Not during cold and flu season. No, no, no, no. There's just a warmth of it. I don't know.

No, I mean, I do appreciate that. Yeah. It feels very French, very, very, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's one cheek. Evidently in Rio, it's two cheeks. In Sao Paulo, it was one cheek. It was very cool.

Yeah. Okay, wait. Yeah. Further south, it's four cheeks. Whoa. If you get, if you know what I mean. Two on the face, two on the back. I didn't see it coming, but that's what my man, Sully does.

Okay, so listen, Mandy, you watched like a week ago because you were texting us in the thread, and you were like, yo, I was on it. 501, 502, get ready. Shit hits different, right? I was watching it last night. Yeah. Twist got me. And dude, at a certain point, like, and I take notes normally through the thing, a certain point I just had to watch.

Yeah. And I just cried. Yeah. And I was like, what's going on, Brown? Like, what has happened? But, like, just like, there was so much that the whole family was going through, that the world was going through. Yeah.

Black America at that time was going through. That I was just like, oh, my God. Can we, like, break it down? How you want to do it? Well, I mean, I think this episode is very, special for a multitude of reasons, but one of which is that we shot this big, long episode, right? Normally our episodes are like 42 minutes. This is like a double episode in one. So I think, logistically speaking, we will break it up like it's two different episodes.

Copy that. I mean, there is like a little interstitial, this is us that sort of sails in in the 43 minutes or whatever. So we kind of know there's like the back half of the episode. Right. All right. So we'll treat 501. And this is, you know, as I was watching, I was like, this conversation is not less about it. It's, it's, this episode is about what's going on in the world. Right. And it feels like a time capsule. And it feels like a time capsule.

But it was also a bit of a turning point slash breaking point for some of our audience. Yeah. For now looking back, I'm guessing a couple of different reasons that they didn't want to address or look at or admit to or talk about. Yep. Which we will get into. Yeah. And, yeah. It's interesting because I know there is controversy around some of the choices that were made, namely about wearing masks on the show.

Some people, the fact that we included the reality of what the world looked like, right? We started filming this in September of 2020. We took an extended break because of the pandemic. We were one of the very first shows that went back. This is true. here in Los Angeles. Yeah, yeah. And we were sort of guinea pigs.

Tell them about the protocols that we went through and we first got by. We had all of the PPE. We had, we were tested three times a week, I believe. That's correct. The whole crew, the whole, like, people that worked in the production office, the people that were on set. Like, there was 250 people or whatever tested three times a week. And everybody was masked. Everybody, if you were in, there were different zones, right?

There was like an A zone, a B zone, a C zone. So the A zone were like the crew that were around, like, on set, like, around the cast. Correct. B, maybe were like some of the gaffers and like electricians and blah, blah, blah, that were, like, setting up things but weren't, like, necessarily, like, around unmasked actors. They didn't want anybody to get sick. No. But an actor in the top seven or eight of the cast getting sick meant. The whole production shutting down.

Right. Which happened a couple times, right? In our rules, too, we also had to be vaccinated. Right. Yeah. Before we got to come back. Everybody did, right? The whole crew.

Pretty much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The thing to kind of understand if you're not a part of this industry is the nature of how much of this city functions on production. Yeah. And it's not just actors. It's not just Hollywood. It's not just parties and award shows.

It's crew members. It's costumes. It's makeup. It's transportation. It's Teamsters. It's catering. Catering. It's craft services.

It's all of these things. And so when- Dry cleaners. I mean, it's just like there's- Production shuts down, you know. Everyone's business is affected. These people aren't on salaries like we are. We're on a salary.

We get paid a salary. But certain people are on a day rate. And if they lose a certain number of days, they can no longer afford to pay their mortgage. Yes, sir. And it's why the strike was so devastating to the city and the state. It's like we rely so much. It's like every industry.

It's like the tentacles of this industry extend to therapists. I mean, I remember running into people, florists, like people that you're like, oh, yeah, you're tangentially sort of involved in the industry. They're affected. And we would have these giant, you know, 400 person zooms, like state of the unions led by Dan or people on H. jar or whoever, and people just in tears. Because as much as they wanted to stay and be a part of this industry, that if we take another week off, I have to leave. Right. I can't stay. Yeah. And it was a, it was a very tenuous time. Yeah. And on top of, on top of the show deciding to, to incorporate the pandemic or masks, we also right from the beginning had to address what was going on.

in the Black Lives Matter movement and Ferguson. Yep. And George Floyd, yeah. And the George Floyd case. Yeah. It was a big swing, man. Like, it was interesting.

I think, you're talking about polarizing. And I remember a lot of the comments over what was formerly known as Twitter. And a lot of folks were like, you listen. It's still Twitter. Fuck that. I'm not subscribing to this ex-bullshit.

Like, come on. I barely subscribe to the Twitter bullshit. Yeah, I'm not even on the Twitter bullshit anymore. but it's just like, come on. What a dumb rebrand. Make the podcast. Here's the thing that was interesting. They don't edit anything out of this.

No. Keep it in. Keep it all. Keep it all. People were saying, like, if I wanted to watch the news, I would watch the news, right? Like, I come to this for a certain sort of escape from the world or whatnot. But I think our show is about the world. You know what I'm saying?

It's trying to... The handbook for living. hold a mirror up to what is transpiring or whatnot to see ourselves as we are and to see like how we can be better in this world right and for us to like make some sort of severe departure and be like is this an alternate reality or the reality in which we i don't think it would have made sense it wouldn't have yeah and it's interesting watching it now with the perspective and the the you know i guess five years removed or whatever i watch it and i'm like this does not feel remotely controversial.

This doesn't feel, in fact, like it feels softer than I had imagined it or remembered it or something in my brain. Like, there was nothing about it that I was like, oh, it could have gone further. Like, I think our show always handled difficult conversations and subjects with such grace and such respect. And this was no different. Like, I think it handled it in a way that, like, it didn't feel in your face, you know? Like, even the pandemic of it all, like, even the conversations around Black America, like, it was so...

It just, it felt so respectful. It didn't feel like we were shoving anything down anyone's throat. So it's so interesting that that was, you know... You had the reaction on both sides, because there was a great many people who were, like, beyond... grateful for the way in which we came back. It was polarizing, yes. It was polarizing, right? And I think to be five seasons into a show and to have had the response that we got meant

that we were still doing something right. Like, people were not ambivalent. Correct. Correct. To the episode, right? Yeah. Some people were out. Yeah.

I've run into people like, yeah, I haven't seen seasons five and six. Right. They were like, we're done. Just because of the pandemic. I don't know. I don't ask. I actually don't want to know. Like, I don't know what else it could have been.

We would assume, but we try not to because that would make an ass out of you and me. But, yeah, I understand. Where do you guys want to start with this episode? What do you think? Let me see. How about the opening scene? We'll start with the opening scene. We'll start with like these broad plot points.

Okay. Thank you, Sam. Well, because I normally have them written out like we do where we just sort of go like block by block by block. And I don't have like a distinguished between first and second episode. Again, these two episodes, 501 and 502, more than anything, are about bigger ideas than plot points. You know what I mean? Like, very little of the story unfolds. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean? I do. There's not a lot of- There's not a lot of plot development. It's like, no, no, no, let's sit here with this for a second. The biggest plot development probably happens in the past. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is, oh, oh, oh, oh, of course. For Randall, right? At the end of our... I totally forgot about that. Me too. Me too. Yeah, at the end of our next podcast episode. Yeah, episode too.

I literally had one of those moments of like, oh, shit! Which has happened a lot in the last, like, season four and season five. It's also just like a testimony. And then we'll stop, like, patting each other on the back in a second. We're not patting. each other. We're petting the writers. It's a really good show. It's a really good show. Like I sit from afar and I watch, right? And it's like experiencing it. I get tingly. Like Stuyves I was telling Mandy before, I was like, I just, like, there's a part of me that just can't even

control stuff. And I feel like, you know, there's things that are complicated for Randall. There are things that are complicated for the family in terms of the dynamic that exists between Brother and sister, brother and brother, right? Yeah. Brother who's just newly gotten this woman pregnant. Mom is still going through what she's going through, right? Like, there's so much that, like, there's a part of me that just felt like I had to secrete moisture from whatever pore except from, like, my nether's to, like, be free.

All right, let's go. Listen, sometimes you've got to pee too. That's okay. Sometimes that's true. Yeah, I was talking about peeing. Yeah. I had forgotten how perfect, never mind whether we made the choices or not, or the writers made the choices or not to discuss these things.

How perfectly suited we were and maybe the only ones suited. Yeah. To tell these stories. To tell these stories. Agreed. Yeah, we were really set up to be like, oh my God. We need to address this. Literally, which we will get into.

A black man and a white family. Yeah. And the metaphor of a black brother and a white sister, you know what I mean, and facing, facing off. And it'd be like, how do we do this? One of the most memorable. We'll get to it. Okay, okay.

Yeah, please episode. My question was because also, this is the first episode where you and I return as parents? I was pregnant. You were pregnant. Yeah. Almost a pregnant. Because Rachel, because bears three or four months. older? When was bear born? July?

July? Yeah. This is September that we started. So, yeah, he's, Gus isn't, is February. Oh, it's February. Yeah, yeah. So we started in September. I was like, actually just like five months pregnant or something. And then I had to wear like a fake belly over my real belly, which was like very weird. I'm like, how do I do this? Right. I'm a parent. I'm a new parent. This is my first episode as a new parent. And I remember the feeling. And I all three, episode we can talk about it, but I remember, and I can see it in my performance, like there was just a shift in my existence on this planet, yes.

I walked onto set and coming to work had never been more fraught, like with, like, we're talking about, like, the process and the testing and that, and that, but that, and being safe so you didn't go home and, like, bring anything home to your baby, your newborn baby. Because, like, little be said, periodically throughout the process, we'd be like, oh, so-and-so-and-and- had COVID and be like, oh, snap. Because this was pre-vaccines. This was pre-vaccines. We weren't allowed to go back.

Yeah. Because I remember I didn't get vaccinated until February or March until after Gus was born. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is pre-vaccines. So this is still like terrifying. Wild West. Who knows what this thing does. Hundreds of thousands of people are dying every week.

Like it was such scary, weird, crazy times. It was like, well, we're endeavoring to go back to work. Yeah. People, we would have like, you know, Maintained six feet. People would walk around with the, what's the pool things? Noodles. Or whatever.

Just like sort of show like how far you're supposed to be away from. And then as we were waiting as a cast, everybody. They built these like wooden plywood, like plexiglass boxes that we all sat in. Essentially, if we were life size action figures of ourselves, they made us the packaging that they would put on the shelf. Which I'm sure there are people out there listening that are like rolling their eyes about this and it's like, we didn't know what we didn't know then. We have, we are five fucking years, sorry, removed now and we have like more information, but. That's the second one. Sorry, sorry,

I'm on one. I've had like two cups of coffee. But it's like I get so frustrated hearing this like, you know, like whatever people looking back to that time period and, you know, rolling their eyes about masks. And it's like, we didn't know. We were all literally doing the best that we could. Yes. People were just trying to survive, go back to work, like get through the day. People were dying by hundreds of thousands of people. So it's like this was a very scary, tenuous time to be back to work. And for us to be telling this story specifically, it felt very, like, special.

Like, okay, this is important what we're doing in a way for whatever. There was real important work happening, but you know what I mean. We'll be right back with more. That was us. Anytime we talk about the cabin episodes, I'm reminded how much travel in that family was never really about the destination. It was about everyone coming together and staying under one roof and sharing the same space for a while. We always had so much fun filming at the cabin. It was kind of this tucked away little nook of Topanga Canyon here in Los Angeles.

And it was actually someone's house and it was kind of like in this little gulch, this holler, if you will. And there was no phone reception. And it kind of felt like, I don't know, we were going on this little, like, mini day trip together all the time because it kind of forced you to just hang out and be present. It was the best. I loved it so much. That cabin really was a special place. And in real life, when you're off traveling and making those kinds of memories, your own place is often just sitting empty back home. Hosting your home on Airbnb is a smart, practical way to make use of that space while you're away.

And now hosting is easier than ever with Airbnb's co-euro. host network. You can hire a vetted local co-host with hosting experience to help take care of things while you're away. Oh my goodness. If any person was going to take advantage of having a co-host, it would have to be Randall. The man who likes his eyes dotted and his teas crossed, making sure that every detail is being seen to and that there's nothing left a chance. Randall all day. A co-host can help manage reservations, message guests, and provide on-site support so the stay runs smoothly without you needing to check constantly. Hosting your home on Airbnb is a practical way to make the most of your space while you're away, earning you extra income and opening your home to another family looking to spend

time together and experience your city like locals. If you've considered hosting, but need some help. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. February can be a lot. Everywhere you look, it feels like people have their love lives totally figured out, whether it's couples, dating stories, or big romantic gestures, it can start to feel like you're behind somehow. The show illustrates that really well, watching how different family dynamics play out and understanding that there's no right way to do it. Married, dating, single, or just focused on ourselves, nobody really has it all solved. That's the part I keep coming back to, man.

No matter where you are in your romantic journey or even life journey, you're not too late. You are right on time. and therapy can help you find your way through that. That's right. Sometimes you just need to work things through with a trained professional. Yes, it's nice to have friends and family that you can talk to. Other times, it's nice to have somebody who's maybe less emotionally involved in the issues that you want to discuss, who is maybe more logically involved. Yeah.

Who can put it through more of a therapeutic filter. And therapy can help you take a step back and look at what feels heavy in your relationships. It gives you space to understand what you want. what's getting in the way, and how to move forward with clarity. And whether you're doing that work on your own or with a partner, therapy is a way to identify what's holding things down and start finding ways to lift that weight. One thing that stands out about BetterHelp is the quality of their therapists. They work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S.

BetterHelp also does the initial matching work for you. You start with a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and preferences and with over 12 years of experience and an industry leading match fulfillment rate, they usually get it right the first time. And if your match doesn't feel right, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, with over 30,000 therapists and more than 6 million people served globally.

It also has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for live sessions based on over over 1.7 million client reviews. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash TWU. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash T-WU. Local news is in decline across Canada, and this is bad news for all of us. With less local news, noise, rumors, and misinformation fill the void, and it gets harder to separate truth from fiction.

That's why CBC News is putting more journalists in more places across Canada, reporting on the ground from where you live, telling the stories that matter to all of us, because local news is big news. Choose news, not noise. CBC News. My question was, because you're more tapped into this than I was, is these, the writer's room at this point was in a tent in Dan Fogelman's backyard. That is correct.

Outside. They literally set up one of those, like, catering tents, those giant ones. And they set up a table in there. And they would all go to Dan Fogelman's backyard and break story. Yeah, man. And the conversations about what to include must have been... Tense, I think. Tense, to say the least.

Tense under the tent. Tents. Tents and tense. Yeah. And if you have any insight into what those were like. inside because I know the writers of these episodes were Dan, Kay, I think, is this Jake? Is this first? It may be.

So Jake was Dan's assistant. And then like got bumped up to a staff writer and I think that this was one of his first writing credits. Check that for me, Sam. I think that's the case. Which is really cool. Jake is very awesome. Because we would have noticed that if he had been on something up until now.

I'm pretty sure. Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure. So Kay, who I sort of like sort of give sort of like the, the soul of the Black Pearson's two, K.O. Yego. Oh, yes. Brilliant writer, right? And it was interesting because as I was reading the script,

I was thinking about life and what my life had been like with George Floyd. And I got tons and tons and tons of calls from my friends who are white checking in on me, which was like very sweet and very wonderful. And sometimes it was worded in such a way. there was like, if there's anything I can do, please let me know. And then sometimes people are like, should I? Da-da-da, are you okay? And it was almost like the pretty girl walking down the street.

Like when somebody says, hey, looking good, Ma, right? It's one thing. But you don't realize like the pretty girl's getting that like constantly walking up and down the street. So at a certain point, it's like, okay, a little time would be nice to just sort of like be to myself, you know what I'm saying? And there was this moment for me too. I was like, gosh, everybody's asking me how I'm feeling or thinking.

I'm like, I'm actually trying to figure it out myself in real time, right? As somebody from St. Louis, when Ferguson happened, like with Mike Brown, that was also just like this gut punch. And I was doing play in New York City at the time. And we wanted to go out and put up and do a form of protest. But the stage manager was like hesitant to let us do it. But then we were like, we're the cast, so we're going to do what we need to do. right there there is this this thing that happens where you're like okay at a certain point i need

to take care of me and consistently responding to everybody else takes that away from yeah of course right and so and i had this conversation with k and she's like exactly right and it's not something because i remember seeing this in comments too when we get to it in episode 502 but people saying like But Kate didn't do anything wrong. I said, nope, she didn't. Kate didn't do anything wrong. She was doing the best that she knew how to, right? And so you were talking about uniquely in a place

where we could address this. These difficult conversations that transpire in life, just because they're difficult doesn't mean that they are meant to be avoided. Right. And that we have two people, first of all, that we know unequivocally love each other. And when love undergirds the conversation,

regardless of how difficult that conversation is, you know at the end of the day, you're still my sister, I'm still your brother. Nothing's going to change that. And I feel like our little sort of message to the world is if you approach each other with love and respect, even when it is dis-uncomfortable, doesn't mean it's meant to be avoided.

Right. Now, I'm saying this to Mandy real quick, and then we should talk about the show. But I was saying, like, this sort of attack on DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, as if it is responsible for so many shortcomings from like planes not being able to land to all other kinds of nonsense, right? I think, and this reminds me of February in school, like high school, middle school, and whatever, and we get the chance to talk about black history and everybody turns and looks at you. And I'm like, hey, man, I'm learning about black history too. What's all looking at me for? There is not some sort of accusing of you personally, are. responsible for my lot in life, right? Like the current, the people who are alive now did not

set up the systems on which this country functions, right? And there is a inherent disparity. There is an unequitable distribution of power, wealth, resources that the country was built on, right? That is the truth. So we benefit. That folks benefit from. Yes, yes. And while you may not be responsible. People may not be responsible. We can, we could be responsible for the repair. Correct. Exactly. Right? But before repair, there has to be acknowledgement. Yeah. And there's a lot of people who are not willing to acknowledge. Because they personally feel like they are not responsible. They personally feel that. And they also personally feel, I think, that there's some sort of zero-sum game, that if other people receive benefits, that things are necessarily taken.

away from them. High tide can lift all boats, baby. You know what I'm saying? It's couples therapy 101. Yeah. When there is a rupture. Yes. When there is a trauma. Right. Yeah. That there has to be acknowledgement and then there has to be amends. Right. And that amends needs to be reinforced for as long as it needs to be reinforced. Yeah. It is not a one and done situation. Right. It is a, it is not a one and done situation. Right. It is a, it is a ongoing living amends of repair that happens. And sometimes it might take a lifetime.

Sure. Sometimes it may take multiple generations. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when the rupture, to use an extremely inadequate word, is as large as it is. Yeah. Yeah. The kind of flip side of that, the metaphor may be slipping a bit,

but the things that happen to us may not be our fault. But they are our responsibility. Yeah. Well said. Let's dive in. We're going to talking about the show. We're going to the opening scenes.

I have an anecdote about the opening scenes. All right, episode opens with Kevin and Madison talking about COVID. Kevin says if it was really that serious, his agent would be calling him. Ring, ring, ding. We wind up getting a call from his agent, right? Yeah. We see Randall and Beth that we hear that the clinical trial has been postponed. In St. Louis.

So, Mom will not be going to St. Louis. The first time I realized that the pandemic was not. was actually serious, like really going to be serious, was that phone call? It's coming. I'm going to tell you, well, mine was this. Okay, and that Rebecca and Miguel are off in the cabin, and they're going to sort of wait things out there.

Remember when you thought it was just going to be two weeks? Oh, yeah. Okay. That's right. I had to pull my kids out of school. Oldest was in fourth grade and was like, oh, it's just going to be a couple of weeks, and then never went back to school.

They'd only intended to spend a few weeks on the way to St. Louis. Beth tells them that Tom Hanks got the virus. the virus. He says, Hank's got the Rona. I was in New Mexico. I was about to shoot this Netflix movie, the harder they fall, right? I was all set up, very excited. The day before principal photography, you get this thing that Tom Hanks, because he was on Australia, he and his wife, and that's what, like, it was weird. It was like, oh, this is real. And then the NBA playoffs was happening. I was like, well, they ain't shut down to NBA, so it can't be that real. They're like, shut down the NBA. You're like, oh, God, the world is coming to a home.

Yeah, it's real. It's real. So you got a call. I was supposed to be in a TV show called Dr. Death. Oh, that's right. The first season. And the showrunner called me. I was in an airport. Yeah.

On my way back from a baby moon with Rachel. And you had your baby right in the middle. We were on a vacation. And Rachel's sister, who helps us book International Travel. She's an expert. Okay. Called us at three o'clock in the morning in Switzerland. It was like, you need to wake up.

You need to rebook your flights. The borders are shutting down. You're coming home tomorrow. And we were supposed to go on another leg of the trip. And we were up all night rebooking flights and blah, blah, blah, bidi, blah, blah, blah. And we rebooked our flights and the two friends we were traveling with on points back through. Yeah. And we got to LAX at 5 p.m.

And LAX shut down at midnight. And those flights, this was one of the crazy, like little weirdies. The flights that we booked on points in the middle of the night, by the time we were sitting at breakfast the next morning, getting ready to leave, were $11,000 a piece. So there was a period where Bear was gonna be a little Swiss boy. A little Swiss baby.

Born in the mountains of Switzerland. Lucky guy, by the way. We literally said, should we stay here? We were in this mountain town that you could could only access by train. Sure. And we're like, it's not a bad place to do. You guys, I was in New York.

I had music coming out, an album come out. It was really unfortunate timing. We were about to go on tour. And we were doing Fallon. And we went to do, like the, you know, the rehearsal, sound check or whatever. And we got there, we did sound check. And they're like, you guys are going to be like, I think the last show that we tape here because, like, things are starting to shut down.

So we're going to like, we're going to, the last show, we can. tape with an audience. Okay. Cool. Amazing. And then by the time, sound check to like two hours later when we were filming the show, they're like, actually there's no audience and like Jimmy's like leaving like immediately after the show because like Rockefeller Center, New York, like everything is shutting down.

I was like, how am I going to get home? Like we were so freaked out. Like are we, is this it? There are. We all say it with smiles and stuff, right? But like in that moment. Oh, it's terrifying. I remember.

And I'll get into this in a second. But Rye, my wife, she would, like, wash the floorboards with bleach. Like this whole thing with groceries, like she would spray it with everything. And like, I was like, I was like, is that necessary? And she's like, I don't know. So I'm doing it. Yeah, we did not know. And guess what?

We had nothing else to do. That's really. And clean the groceries. We was looking at each other for a long time. Should we go into Kevin and Madison present day? Go for it. Please. So Kevin meets Kate and Toby out on the lawn, which, God, all of this just brings back memories of like...

That was my first scene back. That was? First one? First scene? Oh, first scene. Dude. Okay, keep going because I'm not the scene. So Kevin says that he has big news and obviously, like, we know what he's going to tell Kate and Toby, but Toby is just immediately excited and starts guessing, like ridiculous things.

Like, right, you guess Batman? You're the next Batman. He'd be a good Batman. He would be a good Batman. And then he like just flippantly throws out. You got someone pregnant or no. Knock somebody up or something like that, right? And Kev's like, uh, thanks to him.

And then he tells that it's not just one, but that it's twins. Yeah. And it's your, dude. Yeah, his reaction. So you so dumb. You should have seen Ken's face when I performed this scene that way. Ken hated it. He did?

What did he do? Keith hated it. He was like, I think... Ken doesn't like big. No, and I was going, because I had been in my house for two months. With a baby. I was excited to be back at work. And I got a scene where I got to like...

Be goofy. Like goof it up a bit. Yeah. And I shot for the stars. And Ken, after the first take walked on, I was like, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. But you know what, what you represented, I think, was like a boon for the audience, because as I was watching it, like, the two, these two people aren't supposed to be doing, like, why has Madison walking out of the car? What is happening? What are the words that are coming out of your mouth? So funny. And I was trying to, I was trying to play it, to try to mask my panic and try to also look excited

at the same time. Yes. Chris, your choices are always. Chef's Kiss. Brilliant. Perfect. Always. Always.

But I do enjoy making a choice that tweaks Ken just a little bit. Sure, sure. Just a little like where he's like, I guess I have to let you do that. It's not so far. And I can't form a sentence anyway. I do things with Ken too where I was like,

if he doesn't give me a direction, then I'm not doing it the way that I. You know what I need to evoke a response. Yeah. To wake him up back there. You wake back, you watching? He could also be on the app formerly known as Twitter. Are you watching, Ken?

Are you listening? Yeah. Now he's on Instagram. You know, he does a lot of, like, videos now. He does. He does. He's gotten into AI. He's enjoying himself.

Oh, boy. Okay. AI was not invented for people like you. We love you, Ken. We love you very much. So we're sticking with Kevin Madison. Yeah. Okay.

So they make it to the cabin. Yeah, she has a sweet suggestion. This is, like, I think this was a moment, right, where she's like, listen, we know. She knows that mom and Miguel are at the game. They're up there. Yeah. Right? And she's like, you know, my family used to do this thing where we just sort of rent a RV or something.

We get in and, like, you know, we could do it with your sister and Toby and everybody could be quarantined. Yeah, we could all quarantine and test and make sure everybody's okay. And we can, like, cross-country trip it to go to the cabin. And there's this, there's this look that Justin gives her where it's like, can I love you? You know what I'm saying? Very thoughtful. Very thoughtful thing. And then we cut to them lying in bed together, sort of post-coital. Yeah. And being like, oh, can these two people fit?

Yeah. Right? Like, because Madison is not someone that we've ever considered as being like a fit for. And the writing has shifted. Yeah. For Madison. Very much. Out of her, out of her struggles, out of her, like she's no longer an interrupter. Right. Yeah. But it's interesting because it's like, I mean, I can speak as a woman to this. Speak as a woman, girl.

The second you know that you're going to be a mom, like everything does shift. Like there is a groundedness to Madison that I feel like we're sensing for the first time because her life is like is just different now. Like she knows she's growing into this new role. Like she's growing life in her. Like there's something so existential. and like otherworldly about what's happening that like it it you have no choice but to be like like so super present and I think it allows her to be gracious to be like to really be this version of herself that like she's never allowed herself the world's never asked of her you know and and

I love that because it does make you go wow maybe this was the person he's been waiting for. This is also reminds me, besides the two of you beautiful people, somebody else was having a baby. She just had a baby. She had just had her baby. Right. Right. Yeah. And here you have this new dad writing this episode sort of like, you know what I'm saying? Like, all the parallels of all. Kate, Dan's wife had just had their first baby. Yeah. That was Bear's first couple of play dates. It was with Ben. Yeah. Because they, because we hadn't started the show yet. Yeah. And so I just saw photos of the two of them dressed in Batman costumes rolling around at age like two months, three months. Lord have mercy.

Yeah. But there is a softness to her that like, I don't know, just kind of happens, I think. Yeah. And there's a beautiful silhouetted shot of them laying in bed together. You know what I'm saying? I was like, oh, they might fit. I don't know how folks might be. You don't shoot it this well if they don't might fit.

They get to the cabin. Yeah. And Madison, we see her, like, distressed, right? We don't actually see it happen. We don't see it happen. There's also, okay, Kev's coming out of the shower. So, like, there's a level of comfort that people are having with each other now, right? Like, it seems like, okay, we've been around each other for an extended period of time.

You don't just walk out of the shower with folks unless, like, you're just comfortable, right? Sure. She's, like, holding her belly or whatnot, and she winds up telling Kev, there's something that was on the floor, I wound up trip, I fell on my belly. I'm so sorry. He's like, everything's okay. He's like, no, I don't feel them kicking. And they usually never stop kicking, right? And she's like, I need to get checked out.

Can we go somewhere? I was like, yeah, let me find out what to do, right? They go to the doctor. Yep. The doctor does an ultrasound and can only see the heartbeat for one baby. That is correct. So that just sort of confirms their deep-seated fear. She's like, take a deep breath.

We're going to do like a transvaginal. We'll get in there. We'll see what's what. I love how you just throw that out. Like, yeah, we'll get in there. Yeah, we'll get in there. We'll say transvaginal. She's just like, whoop.

Which typically at that point is not, you know, you don't do that at that point because the babies are in there and you don't want to like, you know, go poking around. You don't. I get it. Especially if there's two. There's less room. Yeah, less room and that wound. Yeah. There's not a lot of womb.

Kevin can tell that she is understandably terrified. Yeah. And he asks her if she trusts him and then kind of makes this sweet suggestion that they get married. Yeah. It does. Yeah. Yeah. And it definitely feels a little different.

It's definitely reminiscent of a Kevin Pearson love bomb, overreach, lack of boundary. Yeah. But there's something that feels different about it this time. Yeah. In watching it again, I was like, this feels, it just feels different. And it feels sincere. and it feels kind of grounded in a real feeling. Yeah, I called them Catasson in my notes after you said Catason.

He said Catason. He's like, should we call him Catason? Yeah. But Kevin really just does sell that everything's going to be okay. He does. And he knows that, like, he's ready. He knows they're both going to be amazing parents. He proposes nothing's really said, right?

Like, she doesn't really, she just kind of, like, looks at him, like, what are you doing? but there's no real acknowledgement or like, yes, no. I also like to acknowledge that, like, this is one of the first scenes that is, like, very important. Through masks, right? Because at a certain point, he says, like, I can't tell what you're thinking, right? And then she pulls down her mask with a smile.

Yeah. So sweet. It was very sweet. But it was like, that was a big question that we asked ourselves through the show. It's like, are we going to, like, do the whole season in math? And so I think we found a good sort of these people have been. quarantine together.

So it's okay for them to be, you know what I'm saying? But when you're in a doctor's office, like, yes, that was that was the mandatory thing. Like nobody was walking around without a mask in a doctor's office. Yeah, yeah. The doctor comes back in, two heartbeats. They found the other baby. Everything's all good. Like everything.

Yes. Right. Which, yes. I totally remember those feelings where you're just sort of like, especially when you get to a certain point in pregnancy and the baby has been moving and then the baby doesn't move as much and you drink orange juice or you lay down, you wiggle your belly, you like do all the things to me. It's like, is everything okay in there? Like it was a real, the hardest part of pregnancy for me.

Like just the anxiety, the stress of like is every, yeah, constantly. But did it, did it lesson on two and three? No, no. No. It didn't lesson at all. There were certain things though. You must have been like, oh, I know this. Yes, there was a, there wasn't a, there wasn't a.

fear of the unknown as much, but still like those things where you're just like, yes, you individually are still worried about this particular baby that's growing and you're like, is everything okay? Of course. That I think was the hardest, the kick count. Like, wait. Which one do you love the most? I know.

It's a good question. Which one do I love the most? Depends on the day. I'm going to say Gus because he understands if he ever listens to the, yeah. Depends on the day. Depends on who I'm talking to. When Rachel was pregnant with Ifa, Bear had heard himself and he came running. to mama and she was like maybe seven, eight months pregnant, like fully, full big belly, right?

And Bear climbed up above the belly and was like holding on to mama and was like, and fell asleep there. And so she was like, laying, laying. And finally, I'm like, let me take him. Let me take him. And I took him. And when I took him off, Rachel's belly had an indentation. A big one.

Oh, God. like a big, like, he's a big boy. He had pushed the baby down, her down. And there was this huge, like, ski slope in the bump. And Rachel and I, I picked him up and I looked at her, and she looked at her belly. I looked at me and we were like, oh. Was she freaked out? We both were.

Uh, yeah. We both were like, no one has ever said that could happen. Of all the things. All the things. Wow. Yeah, and she was like, like, gently trying to like massage her belly. Like move on back up. Sure.

Back to round. And like, yeah, it was one of those. That's not in any of the manuals. Yeah. Expect this. If you have a large child who lies on your stomach for too long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. More that was us after these words from our sponsors.

February always feels like a good moment to slow things down a little bit. Not in a big, dramatic way, but in the small ways, take care of yourself and the people around you. I am a big proponent of a little bit of self-love right now. You know, February. Sure. We're celebrating love, but like, you got to give back to yourself. You got to fill your own cup up as well.

Yeah, we're in that in-between season where, you know, you're not rushing around anymore and you're spending more time at home. Nat, y'all, is where comfort really starts to matter. Which is why this episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. Their whole mission is about elevating everyday moments through better materials and thoughtful design and it really shows in their pajamas. Y'all, Rachel, got a full pajama reset for Christmas.

Wow. Just get rid of all the old ones and all these brand new coes here. They're very classy. She looks like a movie star. Hey. You know, like those types of pajamas. Yeah, man.

You know, that have like a little collar on them. Oh, yeah. Very soft. She walking around the house like an old, But not old. Classic. I mean, classic movie star. There you go.

I love those pajamas. The cozy earth bamboo pajama set has become one of those things. I genuinely look forward to putting on. They're incredibly soft, like you said, Chris, lightweight, and somehow cozy without feeling heavy. Yeah, let me tell you how they sleep. Boy, they sleep cooler than cotton. Which makes such a difference when you want to stay comfortable at night is what Rachel tells me. I heard that.

And that's what makes them such a good gift, too. They feel indulgent, but in a very usable everyday way. Something you reach for night after night. That's why cozy earth stands out to me. It's not about overdoing it. It's about bringing a little more care and comfort into your daily routine, especially at home. They also make it easy to try with a 100-night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty.

Come on, man. So you can really live in them and see how they fit into your life. These viral pajamas are so good they sold out during the holidays. And now they're back with an exclusive deal only available January 25th through February 8th. Head to cozy earth.com and use our code, T-W-U-B-O-G-O to get these pajamas for you and someone you love. And if you get a post-purch survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. When you travel as much as we do, you get buried. familiar with a lot of different beds. Some fine, some not so great, and it really changes how

you think about sleep when you realize how rare it is to have something that actually feels consistent. Guys, when you get a bad night's sleep, if you have to go to work, you have a 6 a.m. call. You got 12 to 14 hours of work that day. That sleep the night before is do-do? It's the great gamble. You're going to a different city. You go into some hotel you've never been to before. Boy, I hope this bed does the job. Does the job. right kind of bed. Let me tell you something. This pillow is the right pillow. And most of the time, it's not. It's not. That's why coming back to my Lisa mattress has mattered more than I expected. It's one of the few constants, no matter how weird the schedule's been. I know what I'm coming back to.

There is a firmness to it, right? That means I'm not going to be falling into a soft spot, but it's also cozy and comforting to my body. Like I get... You're talking about me. You're talking about Lisa mattress. Listen, maybe a little bit of both big, baby. But I'm telling you whether I'm with you, you or with my Lisa mattress, I feel taking care of. Lisa mattresses have that balance when you sink in enough to relax, but it still feels supported. That's exactly what Sterling just said, which makes a huge difference when your body has been through a lot of travel or really long days. And Lisa's not just about comfort. There's intention behind it.

They donate thousands of mattresses every year to people in need and partner with organizations like Clean Hub to help remove plastic waste from oceans. This is awesome, man. They've also been recognized for quality. Awarded Best Hybrid Mattress by Wirecutter and featured by West Elm as their exclusive mattress partner. Good sleep doesn't fix everything, but when it's working, everything else feels more manageable. Gosh, do I know that?

Go to Lisa.com for 25% off mattresses. Plus, get an extra $50 off with promo code TWU, exclusive for our listeners. That's L-E-E-E-S-A-com, promo code, TWU for 25% off mattresses, plus an extra $50 off. Support our show, and let them know we sent you after checkout. Lisa.com promo code TWU. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy

your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. So they get the good news from the doctor, Kevin Madison, and then we see them out in the car. Because in the hospital, he was talking about, he was asking, do you trust me? Do you believe in me?

Like, I know I'm not perfect, and I have a lot of things that I need to. Oh, I think that was a conversation earlier where he was talking about his broken parts or something. Yeah. And then she was sort of saying, like, yeah, you're kind of like egotistical and all of stuff. He's like, yeah, I don't need you to co-sign too quickly, right? But she says this thing later on in the car. Because she's trying to let them off the hook, right?

She says, I don't see your broken parts. And she says a lot of other things, but she says, I think you're pretty fantastic, Kevin. Right? Like, these people are falling for each other. But she says also, like, you did this whole Jerry McGuire thing, et cetera. Yeah, like she absolves him of that. I free you from your proposal. Yeah, we were in the throes of emergency.

Yeah. You weren't thinking straight. You don't need to marry me. Yeah, and my man says, well, yeah, I don't think I'm going to take it back. What? Dude. He doubles down. Like you called it from season four, when the math was only math and if it could be Madison.

And knowing that we had already referred to someone as our fiancé. Yeah. In that flash forward, right? Now we sort of understand how it happened so fast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you want me to take it back.

No, I don't want to take it. Yeah. I don't need you to take it back. And they're like, so what does that mean? He's like, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. My proposal was a little bit more concrete than that, but it's sweet, though. And now you find, I find myself as an audience member like, am I rooting?

Am I shipping this? Am I hoping for this to work out? Because there's these new colors, like you said, that we're seeing from Madison. And you're seeing sort of Kev step into his sort of like, we know this is what he wants to be a father, to be a husband, to be sort of responsible in this way, right? And you're like, oh, maybe these two kids have a chance. Yeah, they can figure it out.

That's what I'm feeling. That's what I'm feeling. You know, whatever I've said about and thought about Sophie or whatnot, I'm not thinking about Sophie right now. I'm thinking about, oh, this man is with the mother of his child. And they seem to be doing all right. Okay. I said, I just want to say that.

So we can go to Kate and Toby real quick. Let's do Kate and Toby. All right. Katobi, as we say. Where am I going in my notes? Because at the end of season four, Toby raises the idea of adopting. Yeah.

Yes. Another baby. Yes, yes, yes. That's the last thing we see in season four. Yes. Is that they are contemplating this. Yeah. Got it.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. And we know it happens because we saw. We know it happens. Well, because we see. The future. The future.

And we see her and her brother. Yeah, she's beautiful. Smoke show Damon. Hot daughter. There's our son, Jack, and this is our daughter's smokeshow. My niece. But yeah, she's not. I know.

The name kind of pigeonholed her into. We're really glad it worked out. Yeah. Smoke show. Okay. Back to like Kev telling everybody that he, that Madison is pregnant. your freak out and delightful reaction to that whole thing is first class, right? Kate has that sweet, like, can we air hug?

And she's just like, out to herself. Because we can't touch each other, but we're trying to touch each other in whatever way that we possibly can. And shout out to my man, Tim Olmanson, Gregory, just like, in his mask. Right next to her, watching the whole thing. Like, congratulations. That's good. Yeah. Kate Toby, Madison and Kevin agreed to quarantine together, drive to the cabin.

And at the cabin, Kate asks Toby if Madison and Kevin are awake yet to which she says, nope. We do see the beginning of this scene that we saw in season four, which is I'm going to go to town. Yeah, I'm going to go get a birthday cake. And everything's going to be fine.

A whipped cream cake. Yeah, what is that? I don't know. What's a whipped cream cake? I don't know. Does this guy a cake with whipped cream? You never had it? How does it look like?

No, I was just saying. It's a St. Louis thing. It's like an ice cream cake. Instead of frosting, it's made with whipped cream. I don't know. Yeah, like ice water. What'd you call it? Ice milk.

Ice milk was the thing. It was just whole ice cream basically. You know, it's a cake with a cool up on it. Which, don't get me wrong. Doesn't sound bad. I wouldn't hate it. Doesn't sound bad. And there's, like, what I love to see is like how everybody sort of just checks in with each other as you're about to leave to go on this walk.

And Miguel is sort of encouraging, like, you know, Dr. She's got to have some independence. Like, what a delicate dance to, for not only the person who's going through it, but for the people who are around. Right. To try to, because everybody's just trying to, I don't, I want to use the word manufacture, but just try to give normalcy as much space as it can to be present. They want to manifest normal.

You know what I'm saying? That's the word. If we all pretend hard enough. That's the word, right? Yeah. Nothing has changed. We know that it's not a normal situation, right? And in those situations, like, I don't know if anybody's wrong and if anybody's right.

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, people need to feel independent. People, all of us, need to feel to a certain extent, self-sufficient. Even when we aren't. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I was talking, I was having this conversation with a friend before I just dive right back into it. And I was talking about moms and dads.

And my wife would get mad at me every once in a while, but then she stopped. Where me and the young baby learning how to walk would walk down the sidewalk. He could be two years old, so not a baby. And I'd walk next to him. And then eventually I'd let him walk about 10 feet in front of me. And then it'd become 20 feet. And she's like, why are you letting them walk so far in front of him?

I was like, because we've had conversations. And he knows that he's supposed to stop at the stop sign before Daddy to get there so they can walk across the street. Because at a certain point, I'm not going to be next to him. And I need to know that. he can do this. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Sort of, we have echoes of that of your son. Yeah. Yeah, it's later. Yeah. So I was just, I was just thinking about, like, is there a right or wrong way? I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, it's all a sliding scale.

Yeah. Depends on the day. Yeah. Depends on the person. Sure. I have more of a constitution with my anxiety to allow my kids to learn through pain? For lack of a phrase.

I understand what you're saying? Like just yesterday, Eiff fell. Bear is at bear's worst injury is three stitches over his eye, falling off a couch and hitting his head on the coffee table. Oh, that's the worst. And they continued to bounce up and down on the couch. And IFA was not around for that lesson.

And I can explain it to her. all I want, but a three-year-old girl is not going to understand until last night, he's bouncing on the couch, she falls off, smashes the back of her head on the coffee table, and it's like, part of me is like, thank God. Can I tell you? No blood?

Okay, good. I think there are moms. Now we have a chance. I think there are moms that are listening to this and be like, what is wrong with you? Of course. I understand. No, of course.

I try to cover the corners, though. I try to put the little... There's certain things that are unavoidable. You know what I mean? And it's like... It's not a sharp coffee table. Right. But if you fall from far enough,

you've lost your head open on anything. Sure. So she bangs her head. Yeah. We let everybody calm down. Hey, can we talk about what just happened? Sure. You know?

I do. Yeah. Yeah. Can I also add that Miguel and Rebecca seem to have like, they really like being at the cabin. And Miguel comments that... like it's been really good for her, the fresh air. And even Rebecca says, like, I don't know if it's at this point,

but she just talks about like between the meds and the fresh air and like gardening and all of that. Like she just kind of feels like the best version of herself again. She feels like herself again. Yeah. Except for the poison ivy. Yeah, I was just going to say there's like a couple little times where she's scratching her hand because they've been gardening, they planted this apple tree.

They're trying, you know, they're trying to exercise their green thumb. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She has been itching her hand a little bit, but it's not that big video. Do you know what else? An addendum to that? The apple tree. I know. I thought about that.

I know. I know. These fucking writers. They're so good. They're so good. So you guys recognize what we're talking about because it's okay to just like, there's this whole apple tree that's not growing or not doing what it's supposed to do. And Miguel wants to chop it down.

And this. The same apple tree in episode 615 sort of comes back into preeminence. And it is ultimately where Miguel's ashes are buried, right? Yeah. I had completely forgot. I didn't realize that they had been playing the long game. Like that's some freaking Hodor stuff right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what Hodor is? I do. Okay. Hold the door. Thank you. I don't know much, but I know that. I know how I love you. That was in the ether so much.

I'm like, what does this mean to? Yeah, you had to do some research. Yeah. But the fact that, yeah, Miguel was going to cut down the apple tree and then this comes back in the episode that I thought was just like really beautiful, this sort of lesson that he learned. I think it's important. It speaks to what we were just talking about where you have to sort of be present, especially in the throes of an illness like dementia or Alzheimer's,

where you are robbed of time, you are robbed of your memories, you are robbed of your identity, like just kind of thinking about the big picture of like, we're just going to keep showing up every day and like living every day to its fullest and not get bogged down in the details of like what may or may not be on the horizon. Sure.

Sure. Right. Are we with Randall and Beth, right? We finished talking about Kate and Toby because we have more of Kate and Toby coming up in 502. All right. So we see Kate calls Beth, who relays the message to Randall about Kevin and Madison having twins. Yeah. Reminding him who Madison is in the process.

Yeah, I love that. I know who Madison is, Beth. She's literally the only friend in our entire family. Which also, I thought, was a great nod to something we all. Yeah, yeah. Like, nobody has any friends. No one has friends. I know who Madison is.

She's literally the only friend on Mrs. Us. Yeah. She's the only person outside of the family. Tobias has friends that we saw, like, that come over. They all died in Vegas. Basically. They all got left in Vegas. Yeah. Scooter was his name.

Scooter's best friend. Scooter is cool. He comes back, Scooter with the glasses. I love me some Scooter, man. He's at the wedding. That's right. Yeah. There is, like, and it's also sort of a reminder of like there's,

coolness between these brothers, right? Yeah. Because there's a point, we can always bounce around, but he tries to text his brother at a certain point and has this sort of effusive thing that he wants to write, and then the ones are getting scaled back and just being like, you just like, heard your news, congrats, right? And then Kev gets that same thing on the other end.

He urged to. He wants to make some sort of like connection or whatever, and he just says, thanks. God, like, don't you guys get this feeling that like in the midst of everything else that's going on in the world, COVID, George Floyd, etc. It's like, well, like for COVID, you're like, all right, racism should come to a pause for now. I remember having this thought in my mind. Like, oh, the world is suffering, right? Like, maybe we'll pause on this part.

It's like, no, that part still go. And then it's like, in addendum to that, like, these two brothers just had like the gnarliest. Like in the previous, in the previously on This Is Us, when they sort of go back over the fourth, four, sixing. You just reminded of like the gut punch that each one delivered to the other person. In the end, yeah. He's like, you know, a hand to God, Randall. The worst thing that ever happened to me is the day that brought you home. Yeah.

And Randall's just like, well, all right. And that's where they are when, when the world turns upside down. Yeah. No, Hamilton. Which, the writers had no idea was coming. No. Yeah. You know what I mean?

We didn't know at that point. When we left season four, we did not know that this is how it was going to play out. And they fit it in that. I really wish we could have a sliding doors moment where we could have seen what was planned for season five before the pandemic. I mean, like a lot of the other storyline still continue. You know what I'm saying? But there must have been like work done. Yeah.

Massive work. Yeah. Did Rebecca? Did they go to St. Louis for the trial? Which is going to St. Louis? That's right. We got to get, we should remember to talk about this with somebody. With Dan?

Yeah. Do you think Dan would remember? He'll remember. He'll remember. I saw him last night. He forgets nothing. He doesn't forget anything. He has an elephant.

He really does have like, it's funny because as ingrained as the show is for us, he created this joint. And so like there's things that like, when you hear the writer say like, oh, we were thinking about doing this thing with you here and you'd be like, oh, man, like there, there are lots of sliding doors that could have been that ultimately turned into what I'm just, I'm, I know that things ended the way they were always intended to end, but like, what, and a lot of season five unfolded the way, I'm sure like Laurel was always going to be introduced and that, but like certain things that I'm just curious, like, what? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, right after that text between the two brothers, Randall winds up looking at his phone and there's breaking news. And it is the death of George Floyd. Yes. And the video. And you see him watching the video. And I remember asking Ken, and I'll be like, Ken, is there, is there a possibility that I can actually look at something? Because often these times, we're just staring at a blank screen. Yeah. And they're like, no, we can get it, you know. And like, the, the camera's not showing it. But like, I just wanted to watch it. And it was one of those things, too, because Beth and Randall sort of had this conversation with each other. And you have this in real time where some people were like, I can't, I can't.

I don't want to see it. Sure. We've seen enough. Unfortunately, there's been multiple examples of this that have happened through history of black men dying on camera, right? Sometimes at the hands of law enforcement, sometimes in other circumstances. There is a bit of post-traumatic stress that a lot of folks carry with them. And also contributes to, like, as I did this show, Washington Black,

I was very cognizant of folks are tired of shows that sort of like focus on the trauma and pain of the Black experience and not enough on the joy of it. And so trying to show all of it, right, in a way that is respectful, doesn't diminish the fact that certain things exist while also emphasizing that it's not the totality of our experience, right? American fiction sort of talks about that in a larger context. And so you see Beth and Randall in bed and he's talking about eight minutes. And I think it's ultimately eight plus minutes, right? But it's one of those things. And I remember, I remember something that I put on the app formerly known as Twitter and you can say what you need to about this. I remember I said something

I don't think anybody would treat a dog like this. It is the sort of deliberate dehumanization. That is oftentimes, even though I live in this world, still somewhat shocking. Like, you can't hear him say, I can't breathe. You know what I mean? And you can see other cops being like, should we be?

And that guy, I can't even remember his name, and I don't want to even say it out loud on the podcast. I was like, what is it that has transpired within your soul that allows one human being to treat another human being so inhumanely? Yeah. Well, first of all, I'll say this is like you don't see them as a human being. Like you come up with words and things that you attribute to them that allow them to be easily othered so that when you come into contact with them, you don't have to see a reflection of yourself. Yeah. You just see something beneath you.

Oh, dude, that's it. I don't have much more to say about it. But it's tough. And I can imagine then just as we move into this Randall storyline, I have my wife to talk to. I have my friends that I've gone to school with. I have my brother, my black brother and my black sister. And the family gets together,

and we sort of collectively help each other sort of go through this experience, right? because it's something that everybody is feeling in a very sort of acute way. And that's this moment. I was like, oh, this man doesn't have that. Right. Yeah.

Anywhere. He has his wife, right? And his children, and you see, ultimately, like, they sort of gather together in front of the television and they're sort of experiencing at a collective. And at a certain point, Tess is like, can we change the channel? Yeah, it's a lot. But he also, I mean, we've, up to this point, the theme is that Randall is too much.

Yeah. So on a human level, he's trying his, he says it all through this episode, I'm not breaking down here. Yeah. I'm not having a breakdown. Yeah. Because he doesn't want his feelings to be too much for his wife, the only person he has to speak to about this. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

And then Malik shows up. Then Malik shows up, which is, I fucking love this is Sassanti kid. He's so freaking charming. He's so charming. And it is at such a nice moment to see it. Yeah. It's like an unexpected. Well, for Randall to have another outlet, another person to talk to.

Yeah. He asked me, he's like, you're in trouble? He's like, what are you talking about, man? That's usually when my dad goes out on the porch when he gets in trouble. He's like, no, man, I'm not in trouble. I'm just getting some work now. Right. And they're talking to each other and they wound up talking about the video. Like, have you watched it? Have you seen it? He says, yeah, I watched it with my dad.

And, you know, after we finished watching, it just went on this walk. He's like, that's kind of become our thing. He mentioned Tamia Rice, I believe, or did he mention Trayvon? Trevon. He mentioned. Too many, right? Yeah. He's like, that's become our thing. And you can see Randall sort of been like, oh, I never really got a chance to take a walk with somebody. Yeah.

And he goes into this story about this dude who's the cousin of a person on the Pittsburgh Steelers. His name Johnny Gamage. Johnny Gamage. Johnny Gamage. And he talks about how I think he was speeding or was a traffic infraction or something. And there was five cops that just got on him and he just died. on the spot. And there's this sort of,

and I can't remember if this is said or not, but that there was really nobody that he got a chance to talk to. Oh, he did say that. Like, nobody in my family talked about it, but at that point I was old enough, and so I just watched it by myself. And we cut back to Lonnie, just sort of in front of the TV watching this thing.

And I'd say, like, there's this, there's a newfound sort of, empathy that I even have for Randall. For young Randall. For young Randall in that like, you got to process this stuff. Yeah. And he was all by himself. And being cognizant, I'll say this too, of the idea that like what I'm feeling has

the potential of making other people feel uncomfortable. Yes. So I'll just... Lock it up. I'll just hold on to it because my goal is not to... to make other people feel uncomfortable. But at the same, I don't know exactly what to do then. But it's a turning point for a child, right?

Because a child cannot comprehend controlling the outside world. The only thing that they can fix or control is themselves. And that's where those wires get crossed. And they weave themselves into coping mechanisms. They weave themselves into defense mechanisms. They weave themselves into drug addiction. like we were talking about with the heroin or whatever the path is. And they, if you, if you don't have any help as a young person to untangle that,

you end up as an adult with this rat's nest of wiring in your head that you can't follow, you can't follow anything back to its origin or its source. I mean, and Randall says so much, like, I've never said any of that out loud before. Yeah. Yeah. And you're just like, that's a gut punch. Like, oh. And he winds up saying, like, because Malik made fun of him, he says, everything okay.

It's like, you know, we've been sitting here for a little bit. You just was sitting there quiet and you ain't made a dumb dad joke or anything. And then he winds up making this confession to Malik. And then he goes, well, I guess you are my only friend, Malik. Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. That's news of me. And he said, like, but you're also my daughter's boyfriend.

So you're going to have to choose one of us. And just in my own defense, like, I can drive and she can't. And he's like, well, there you go. He went. Yeah. And then he sends a kid inside to be with his girlfriend or whatnot. But it was a good moment. It was a good scene.

Yeah. I will say that there is, as I watched these two episodes, there's a color to my own performance that I was sort of surprised by. Yeah. Because there's no goofy, there's no sort of, um, the anxiousness or sort of joviality or whatnot. Like, there's no silliness to it. Well, sure.

Because he's just nothing. This is such a sobering moment in the world for everybody, but especially for Randall. Yeah. And an actor playing exhaustion is boring. Yeah. But watching an exhausted actor, and you show up, I mean, you could just see it in your face.

Yeah. That this is not a TV show. This is not a scene. This is your life. Yeah. Who shit. All right. Let me look at this next bullet point.

Okay, well, this is going back through other stuff because, again, to the point that this is a different dude, it's my birthday and my wife who's played by Susan Colacci Watson offers to have sex with me. You know something wrong with this Negro. He turns that down. That's like, nope, I'm good. For a second. I was acting.

I was like, hey, how dare you? That's acting. You know what I'm saying? How dare you. He didn't want to have sex with this woman who is like up in his face? Who just said, would you like to have sex? I think you are having an emotion. He asked for a rain check, but each time he, like, he shows his hand.

He's like, I'm okay. She said, do I look like a car wash? Rain check. That was hilarious. That was a great line. Shout out. Shout out to that woman. There's something, remind me that there's something that Sue does in the next.

next episode, that is like one of my favorite things as an actor to experience from her as my wife. Remind me of this. In the next episode of our podcast. And the next episode of our podcast. Later in this episode of the television show. Correct. Well, I guess it's all part of the same episode. Yeah.

But you had to say what I'm saying. You understand. Yeah. Okay. The girls make Randall a birthday cake and Annie makes some a smoothie with four. She's so sweet. Yeah. She says 40 ingredients is kind of hard.

I was like, what is that? She's like, Tare it on. Forty ingredients. Malik. And so yeah, that is it. That's the totality of that, right? Yeah. What, did we talk about Rebecca and Miguel? Did we already do it? Well, should we just, should we should we should we just like wait for the next episode? This episode is so long. It's long. Because we could split these story lines into two episodes. But there's going to be more stuff. I know, I know. Of course. But the episode ends, I guess, to a certain extent, with Kate calling

Randall saying mom is lost. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so there's been this sort of like, I I should say this. There's been, Kate has been texting Randall throughout the episode. And you can see Randall just sort of like shelving those texts. Not like, not like he's deliberately. Ignoring her. But he's just like, I'm not exactly sure what to do with that. And even like Beth will see the text too.

And they're like, oh, because she asked like, what charity should she give to and checking in on them, right? At a demonstration, protesting. Yes. Showing like the baby and his, you know, outfit and everything. And it's kind and warm. Like as I was saying earlier in the episode, well-intentioned. When people reach out to you, you know it's well-intentioned.

But there's a part of him that's like, you know what, for my own sort of preservation right now, like I actually just need to focus on what's happening here. And I can come to that at a later time, right? So in that with Malik, she hits him up again or whatnot. And then he winds up looking down and it says that like, mom is lost. I don't know what to do. could use some help. I don't know what to do, right? And like one of the last things we see is like

Randall in the car driving to the cabin. Yeah. Right. So is that a good place? Yeah. I think that's a good place to stop. I think we're going to have a really special fan segment when we get back. Who we got? We have Jennifer C. Holmes, who plays your mom. Laurel. Randall's mom coming to talk to us for a little bit. She's beautiful. She's exceptional. Can't wait to talk to her. We'll be right back with more. That was us. It's time for our favorite segment, our fan segment, and today we have a very, very special guest joining us. Yes, we love that the show wanted to dive back into Laurel's backstory. And of course, we can't forget the incredible cliffhanger that this episode has to offer with Randall's mother,

Laurel. So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, let's talk to Laurel herself. Please welcome the lovely, the incredible, the talented. Jennifer C. Home. Hello. You see Jennifer, there's nothing to be worried about. Guys, look, she told them. I couldn't even talk and it was written out for me. She told us she was a little scared. I was a little, you know, when you're afraid, you have to do everything. You need to do afraid. No matter what it is. You just got to do it. It's not. I do like, it's a little bit. It's good to give voice to it, right?

That, like, helps dissipate some of the, like, nerves or whatnot. But at the end of this, there's cookies. I got it. There's cookies, but let me just also say, like, I got two moms here right now. That's right. That's right. Very, very cute. Okay, I already talked about what the smoke show is there is Amanda Lee Moore.

But J.C. Holmes with her little ballet slippers on. I know. You guys better be watching on YouTube. Watch it on YouTube. Now she's rocking these overalls. She got the bandana on. Like, it's like some poetic justice vibes going on in the house today, man. Love it.

How are you? I am blessed. I am amazing. I feel I'm just, you know, life is good. And you have two babies now? I have two babies. Like, she would be showing us pets. It's just crazy to say.

How old are you? Oh, my gosh. Four. She just turned four in November, 19 months. Oh, yeah. And you said, like, like, you were pregnant when shooting, but nobody had been born. No, so yeah, I was pregnant one of the episodes.

Got it. Like a later episode. Like a late episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And no one was born. Right. And then until after. I got you.

Got it. Yeah. Like nine months later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Life be lifeing. Yes. Yes. It's so true.

So we see Laurel how long ago in the show? Season one. Season one was the last time. Last time that we saw. No, we'd seen it before then. We'd seen her before then. I'm just saying, but for the first time, you were in season one on the bus. Weren't you?

Yeah, 2016, yeah. 2016, Rebecca's like, excuse me, there's an Afro-American man. You have done that part. That's one of my favorite things. It's a little time capsule. Yeah. Because for a minute, Afro-American was the jam. Literally a minute.

A minute. Literally. For six months. But this is the thing, like, you didn't have any line. I didn't have not one line. And so you go from a situation where like you're like glorified extra, like have like a look between you and and Jamel, right? That turns into something. It's a beautiful sequence.

And so I'm so curious from your, it's like did you expect from what first happened on the bus, that little dumb show that we have with each other would turn into what it ultimately turned into? Did I expect it? I wanted it. I want Did they tell you that there would potentially be more of a story there when you first auditioned?

So when I auditioned there was no character name it was just young woman mysterious woman There was no lines no backstory nothing

and so I didn't know what to expect I was like okay how am I going to do it was a self tape so I just What? Yeah it was a self-tape

And at that time self-tapes wasn't like a thing Yeah, 2016 not yet Exactly. Yeah. So I just, I was at my manager's office already and they're like, go downstairs and let's film it. And I just put like a whole bunch of eyeliner on my face. I was like, let's just make her weird. I don't know. Yeah, what does mysterious mean? Like what's mysterious? So I put eyeliner in my face and I put water. You've got a mustache. You've got a mustache. Just looking crazy. And I was like taking notes in the scene like on the bus and like talking to myself. Sint it off. And you got it.

And I got it. And so this comes back around how many years later this storyline is, how many, how many years? Well, when was the next time you shot? Who was the next time you shot? That was like four or five years later. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Wait. I'm saying there's stuff in between season one and season five, though, right? There's a few things. Like we revisit that bus thing a couple of times. Yeah. But that's it. And like her going into labor and, the apartment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we did that whole thing with like the history of like

drug use, right, with you and Jamal. And that whole situation, that montage, right? I remember that. That was in that episode, I thought. In this episode? No, no, no, in that first episode. No, it wasn't, it was later. Gosh, it's all so confusing. I think it was before the Memphis episode. I think it was right before. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Yes. There's still season one. It's still season one, right? So then, like, when you were asked back, like, tell us about, because season five is a big season for you. Yeah, yeah. Like, how did that information get broken to you?

Okay, so I received an email, like, early 2021, I think March or something like that. Yep. Hey, we got a call from casting directors. They're saying they might write a bigger storyline for Laurel, but they're, You know, it's not, you know, concrete yet. Okay. I was like, okay, you know, I'm just going to start preparing. That's all you got to do.

Just start preparing. You just never know. What does preparing look like? Preparing backstory for me. Just kind of, and I was already working on her backstory. Like, I would watch the show and I'm like, you know what? They have to bring her back. We have to like do her justice because there was so much judgment on Laurel.

Sure, sure. I was like, I have to vindicate this person. They were so unknown. Yeah. And so backstory was watching the show and making my own backstory for her and just keeping up with the show and little things you would say. And a few months after that, it was like July or something like that. I don't know. And they're like, they're going to bring you back.

Here's the script. And you've got to read season one. And I was like, okay. It's time to get to work. Like, this is, this is really happening. It's happening. I haven't had this opportunity. Yeah.

It has arrived. Yeah. Let's go. It's game time. Like, let's go. Let's go. And I just start preparing. Yeah.

And this episode is incredible. I mean, this episode gives so much context to their story. Yeah. And to, to Randall's beginnings. Yeah. Yeah. And also to the nature of, there's a, there's another mirroring of, of the way that this episode starts with what is going on in the world.

Yeah. There's a mirroring that this has always been going on. Yes, sir. Sure. And that we are just now getting any small bit of attention paid to it in any kind of serious way. Yeah. Through the storyline of these two young. Activists.

Yeah. It was so nice to see like that part of her story come to life. and that this baby was so wanted. And there were, Laurel had big plans for her life and her family and to sort of see things not come to fruition in the way that she expected in the way that she deserved, quite frankly, is like, is pretty heartbreaking. Yeah. And deflating like, oh, wow, this was a woman who like was organized

and she was prepared and she was hungry and she wanted things from her life. And like she was so full of life. And again, it's like so much about when we don't know the full picture and we sort of make these judgments. These judgments and we sort of assume like, oh, this woman, like she died. She was an addict. And exactly. And thank goodness her child ended up in a place where he was loved because this woman couldn't give him the life that, you know, he deserved. All of that just sort of like goes out the window when you sort of understand.

greater context of like a richer picture that was painted, I think, by this episode. Yeah. It was so special because after the episode aired, the first, well, I think I'm kind of like speeding up. We jump all over the place. Yeah, we jump. Jump around. Yeah, well, the episode six, when that aired, DMs was flooding with, thank you so much, you know.

Yeah. You gave me closure about my parents. I was adopted or I don't know who my birth parents are. And it kind of gave them more understanding and empathy. Yeah. You know? And that was like... There's something that you say in the episode where you're talking about, like,

the nature of the world right now and how heroin is predominantly in our communities that we're struggling with. And there's this moment of transparency where like, heck, I'm even struggling with it right now. now. Yeah. Right. So it's, it's sort of like, you know what, I know that I'm not perfect or whatnot, but like that's why we need to fight to make sure that these things that have allowed them to be so predominant in our community are not present in the same way that they are, right? And then, maybe you said it, there's this moment when you articulate the dreams, there's this, this, not

innocence, but there's this just brightness and hopefulness that exists, right? And it's sort of, juxtaposes what we've known about law. Ultimately what happens. You know what I'm saying? And ultimately what happens is like, people don't start, right? Even with William, people don't start, you know, as drug addicts. Right. You know what I'm saying?

People don't start off as like... Alcoholics. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so it was interesting to just watch as like, you're going to get this promotion, and we're going to move up to the second floor. Like the dreams, the dreams are like... They're not lofty.

Outlandish wherever, but like he deserves light. He deserves light. He deserves light. You know what I'm saying? And then ultimately things start to play out and we're like, well, I didn't get the promotion. Someone else at work, much less deserving. Yeah. Got that promotion.

We wound up getting the promotion. We're not going to be able to get that apartment. You know what I'm saying? Like he's not going to have any light. And you see. The dream get dulled. Oh. Yeah.

And it's like in that moment I want to say like to, to. Laurel to anybody that has like dreams that, you know, may seem as if they're falling away. Like, hold on as tightly. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Patience. Patience. Yeah. The natural ebb and flow of life. Yeah. The wave will come back and pick you back up again. I mean, this is just the roller coaster that we ride. Like, hang on. You see William even like, and God bless Jamel because he just has like this natural sweetness. Yeah. him, whatever.

Like, he's like just trying to make her something to eat. Like, you need to eat something? He says, it's going to be okay. She's like, it's not going to be okay. He's like, all right, you're going to be, I'm going to take this for another time. You know what I'm trying to keep it together. And so then, and she tells him, she's like, I don't know what's going to be like, man. And this was one of the most interesting things.

And I don't know how many people have said this about themselves or whatnot. I'm not good with pain. Like, you're like, you're telling them right now, like, listen, I don't like this. I don't feel good. Like, I'm not good. And he's like, all right, you know, but I'm going to be there holding your hand every step of the way. And one of the big reveals that we find in your dynamic is that you deliver the baby. You guys don't make it out of the hospital, right?

You don't make it to the hospital. They have a homebirth. The baby happens right then, right there. My man big young William catches the baby. He didn't fumble. Didn't have, you know what I'm saying? What, do you think it was intentional to have the baby at home or they just didn't make it to a hospital in time? She comes up with backstores.

So let's hear what she said. Yeah, yeah. I think it was intentional because there was so much judgment in the hospital of her being on drugs. That was what I picked up on. Yeah. It wasn't a like, oh, we didn't make it in time. It was like, we're gonna be here. We're gonna muscle through it at home.

And there's also a danger of being separated. For sure. Yeah. If she's not well and I have drugs in my, you know, system and they can take the baby away. I don't think, I don't know the answer to this. So maybe you do. I don't think, I think you. I think you were clean.

Clean. We're clean during the pregnancy. I was clean during the pregnancy. But maybe he wasn't. Maybe. Maybe. Okay. Yeah.

How much time did you and Jermel get to spend together outside of, I mean, did you have conversations? Did you get to know each other at all? We did, but we wouldn't talk about William and Laurel. Oh, interesting. It was our own friendship conversation. Like, yeah. It was grounded in that. I hear you.

Yeah. But I think sometimes. It's more important. Absolutely. It's like you want to get to know each other because that is reflected on screen, not necessarily like, oh, let's be aligned with like our backstories or whatever. It's like you just have to have that sort of natural ease and rapport with one another because that translates. I'd agree.

Yeah, I'd agree. Yeah, he's great. He's. He's. He's dope. Yeah. He's so dope. Yes.

So I, and now I remember in particular, like the baby is born and you're just like sort of like still sort of like in your own fetal position. and just been like, I need something just to make it through, right? And, like, that's the reveal is that, like, William was the person. Who gave it to her? They gave it to her. Yeah. And just, like, what he's walking around with, right? Like, not all, what we've heard to this point is that, like, you know, she was able to deliver you and then she overdosed.

Like, I don't think he ever says in the retelling of anything that, like, I went and got your mom. No, no, no. So, like, he's walking around thinking, like, not only did she die, but that, like, he's sort of responsible for that. Because I think that's important to put out there because, like, at no moment do we ever doubt that that's what transpired. Of course. Right. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, he, like, the paramedics, too, I got to give it up to the paramedics and to the writers for this because there is this dude who's sort of like, like, where do he goes?

Like, we're going to need you to stay here. And he turned around and William's gone. He's like, well, we're going to let the police deal with that. Almost like... Whatever, not our job. Yeah, there was a bad cop, good cup. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's another dude, like, as William Sanders, like, is she gone?

Right? And he's like, you know what? Let me keep going. And it just reminded me, if you guys are familiar with, like, the level of mortality rates of black women in pregnancy in the United States compared to other people. Yeah. Right? And how, like, having a doctor. that looks like you actually helps a great deal in terms of those mortality rates going up.

Yes. Empathies going down. When they look like you, they go up. The rate, the mortality rates go down. Thank you. Yes, yes, yes. No, I was telling you. Yes.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for the clarity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just going to this thing is like, wouldn't it be nice if we just loved each other and cared and treated each other as if we see. saw ourselves in whomever that individual is. You were talking earlier about the people getting cut off whatever.

Pete Holmes, you sent me this thing, the comedian, right? Yeah, yeah. Holmes. Oh, Holmes. And he's talking about, like, what have I just related to everybody? It's like, oh, that's an interesting version of me. Yep. You know what I'm saying?

It's like, oh, look at me as a flight attendant who seems to be put upon and bothered. Maybe I should be a little bit kinder to me. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, that sort of thing. It's like, I feel like it's kind of what we are looking to do in this. profession is to be like what would I do if I was in these circumstances and how do I

live in that fully in such a way that is without judgment but just with an attempt towards understanding to remove the separation yeah to move yeah to separation it seems so like do I know but everybody seems to put everybody the most challenging part of the human condition yeah yeah mercy yeah so I say that and then we see Williams gone he goes on his whole journey to like take the baby because you you asked him if something happens to me then make a family make sure this kid has a family make a family yeah he's not sure exactly sure how he's supposed to do that or whatnot so he winds up going to the fire department he winds up watching like

the firemen come take him and then at a certain point he winds up going to the hospital right but i said we can get it on all that because this is about jennifer's helms they're working on you you guys i i i i jumped. I freaking jumped, man. Like, it was stupid. Oh, same. Same. When I read the script, I threw it.

No, like, I threw it. You know, as an actress, like, this is. Maybe another episode. Yeah, I was like, I'm going to be. Am I going to get top of show? She's alive. I'm going to get top of show. Oh, my gosh.

I'm going to get top of show. Oh, my gosh. No, seriously. No, totally. That's the ball game. That's the ball game. How many scripts I die on page 32. You guys.

Oh my gosh. They're like, well, that was fun. We're sitting there, like, doing the thing. And like, he's like, just, you know, quit trying that thing, and now it's the time of death, et cetera, et cetera. And so we think she's gone around her. And then we just hear. And that's it.

Episode Ed's. Just a deep breath. Such an excellent cut. And you know Dan, you know Dan was in that editing room. Totally. Finesting that cut off of that breath. Just how much. Just like, how much?

Just like. It's very Hamilton. Yes. I'm just saying it. Yes. Okay. So you threw the script. Oh, I threw it.

I jumped on my bed. Yeah. Ran around my little apartment. Appropriate. Oh, like, I went crazy. Really good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a good 10 minutes.

Like, crazy. Yeah. I was like, I'm going to be working. Yes. I've been getting all these nose. Yeah. Like, oh my gosh. Okay.

It's happening. Like, it's happening again. Lowe Lips. Laurel lives. And Laurel lives. And I don't think at that time I knew she was going to have like a whole. Me? None of it.

No, I didn't. Yeah, I just knew. Let's talk a little bit about five. Is this 506? Is that what you're like the big Laurel episode is? Yeah. Yeah. And I remember just sort of like, because we'd seen each other briefly, but we got a chance to hang out that time.

And especially like the way that we shot the water sequence. Yeah. was we would do the full thing. You and I would do it together. I was terrified. You knew I was. You knew. Did you know I was terrified?

You knew. He knew I was terrified. I was like building up to the water. No, I think anticipating a screen time with Sterling Cape Brown to be real, you know? In the nude. In the nude. Yeah.

I was scared to look. That's my. Listen, that doesn't matter. Come on, nah. I'm your friend, but if you're coming at me in the nude... Yeah, just anticipation. If you're coming at me on the nude, I'm going to be scared, too. Oh, wow.

From Minnesota all of a sudden. Yeah, suddenly have a little hot dish there. Yeah, it was just anticipating. Can I ask something? Wait, hold on, before you get into this whole thing. Because to me, like these guys know me, I'm about as silly as they come. But so when people say things like that, I'm legitimately sort of like taking aback for just a second because is there a way in which like from your opinion that I come across that seems intimidating? I think. And look at me.

You can answer honestly. Yeah. I think anyone don't look at him and I told him what he needs to hear. You say what you need to say and I'll be right here. Okay. I think anyone that you see on TV, admire their work and inspired by, and that's ultra-uber-talented and all the things, all the things. And nude.

And nude. To make things more complicated. Showing up in that moment. Yeah. With someone like that, you put pressure on yourself. Of course. And it's a big moment for your character, too. And it's a big moment for my character.

And I don't want to drop the ball. It's also not your show. And it's not my show up. So I'm coming on. In someone else's house. That's exactly what it is. So it's a little intimidating. And you want to walk into spaces fearless and bold and confident and all those things.

But as a human, that comes up. Of course. You know, and that came up. Of course. I like there is I don't know if you remember but he had to take we're face to face and he had to like take my hand and put it on his face like I wanted to touch his face but I was just frozen in that moment like I just froze and I was watching him I'm like oh my gosh sterling I'm getting a front row show of like Sterling's performance and like the waterworks and I was just it's a lot it's a lot sometimes like Like you're taken out of the moment. Yeah. And then other times you're there locked in with somebody.

But it is. It's one thing that also would be like, here, sit in these two chairs and have a conversation. Oh. Or you show up to work. Like, can you get in this lake, please? Yeah. Hoping this water. Like all of these different.

And someone's crying. And it's like, and there's a lot. And also it's like you know the show. You know this character. And it's like there's so much wrapped up. And like you're his mother. Yeah. It's a lot.

It's a lot. Yeah. It's a lot. You were lovely. You were fantastic. I beat myself up about that, too. Oh, God. I did. No, I did.

About what? I was like, oh, I just. About what? Hold on. About what? Not letting have just being. Him taking your hand? Yeah, like me not being in the moment of Laurel and being taken in, like, almost essentially standing there as Jennifer.

You know, like. But your moment is Laurel's mom. Yeah. Yeah. So I get this. Yeah. Yeah. But what you're going through is just as valid as any other choice Laurel would have made.

Yeah. And it plays and it shows. And I feel like we've talked about this a lot too. It's really hard sometimes as an actor is like you show up to set with like a certain expectation, right? Of like how a scene's going to go, how it's supposed to unfold in your mind and you've prepared for it. You know your lines. And like you have this. anticipation of like what someone else is going to say and what that's going to bring up and you want

to I think cry here and and then when things don't unfold the way that you had planned them there is like I have this where I'm like very hard on myself about something like that didn't go the way I wanted it to go or it didn't feel right and sometimes it's not supposed to feel right yeah like yeah there are moments like that where there's so many colors wrapped up and in that moment that like, I don't think you're supposed to come out of a scene like that being like, ha, I did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, that felt good. That felt perfect. Do you know what I mean? Right. But like you, I think you sort of had that expectation of like you're going to drive home and like pat yourself on the back. Like, I did it. And those scenes aren't supposed to.

I've never done it. Well, in theory, you know what I mean? Like, or that's the expectation, right? Like, I don't really do that either. But what I'm saying is I've never driven home and been like, That was the one. No, totally. Same, same.

Not. Same. Same. Or you at least can come and be like, I feel like I did what I was supposed to do that day. But then there are other days we were just like, oh, shit, that didn't feel good. Was that okay? Then you start, like, kind of second guessing yourself.

Yeah. I think that's just sort of like what it means to be an actor. This is what I say that. I agree with everything that you're saying, that everybody is saying. And two cents. there are these moments that you have with like your scene partner where you have this instinct to do something, right? And then it becomes a question of like asking for forgiveness or permission sort of thing. And I could see like there was an instinct, right?

That was transpiring. I was like, oh, she doesn't feel comfortable falling through this instinct. Especially when it comes to physical contact. Especially when it comes to physical contact. So I was like, let me see if I can help in this process and be like, oh, I think that's a good instinct. I was like, you should do that. And just sort of like grabbing it and putting it there. But Sue had to do it with me when I was like,

I can remember Sue was walking by me in a scene. And I was like, I don't know about to smack her on the booty. But then I was like, I can't just get smacking people on the booty. And then Sue looks at me and she goes, you want to smack me on the booty, didn't you? I was like, I was thinking about it. And she's like, going to smack me. You know what I'm saying?

So those sorts of things do happen all the time. But the way it unfolds, of you taking her hand. Yeah. Me and something, you know what I mean? Well, that is, I do think that that's our job, right? And what I mean by our job is like, when it is our house and we are being the host, we need to make sure that our guests are comfortable.

Yes. You know what I mean? And I've been on sets where I feel like... I forget that sometimes, like to go the extra mile to make them feel like. And I was about to say, like when I've been on other sets and I can see, I know the difference between when people do go that. that extra mile and when they don't. And I was like, okay, Brown, remember that.

So when people come to your house, you make sure that you make them feel welcome. Yes. Right? So I appreciate the acknowledgement. That, yeah, no, it meant so much because I took that with me. And I'll forever take that moment with me. So thank you. Wow.

Seriously. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, mom. Oh, mom.

Thank you so much for coming to sit and talk with us. Thanks for having me, you guys. This was nice. Not to be talking to kids all day. I love my babies. I know that feeling. A little bit of conversation. Can't even put like a real sense together.

This is a big part of your life too and this deserves to have the time devoted to it. I appreciate it. Can I ask this question just real quick? Because it's been a few years since that's happened. Things in Los Angeles, like there's been a massive contraction of the industry or whatnot. Like since the show, have there been opportunities? Have you been auditioning? Like, what's life?

been like since. Yeah, no, life's been in the acting realm. It's been definitely quiet. And then there's ups and there's downs. Yeah. So during the, you know, the strikes and the fires, I was fortunate enough to book a voiceover for Netflix. It was an animation.

I'll be out next year. Okay. But I'm not... Well, it's a story about Bass Reeves. And that's all I can say about... Okay, cool. Cool. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a big secret who's playing Bass Reeves, but I play The Wife. All right. Yeah. And it was my first time doing voiceover. That's great. Yeah. And it was a whole adventure and, you know, think of its own.

But I was able to do that for a good, like, six months. Beautiful. Six to eight months. Yeah. And it just kept me inspired and working and, you know, sharpened and during that time. Okay. What is your IG slash TikTok slash any other socials that you want to share? people so they can find you.

And follow you. Okay. You can look in your camera. You can follow me on Jennifer C. Holmes. No TikTok. You know, I'm trying to get better at those things. You know what I mean? Like, it's already a lot.

We're all working on. Yeah. Here's the thing. Guys, casting directors, directors, writers, etc. You have a beautiful, talented woman whose face is not made for voiceover, even though the voice is silky. No, no. That she's made to be on camera. Can we put this woman to work, please?

She was outstanding in our show. She needs to be outstanding in several shows. So thank you for joining us, Jennifer. Thank you so much. Guys, we'll wrap this up and we'll come back with the end of our episode. But, like, truly. Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate you so much.

Thank you, guys. Welcome. Thank you. Nice. You guys. Cookie. Go now. You did the hard stuff.

We did it. See? It was easy. That was an incredible conversation. She's wonderful. I love her so much. There's such a purity to her soul and just to sort of like say what she said. Like I do remember. Like I do.

So we're in this pool of water. They heated a little bit for us or whatnot. And we're just walking around in water or whatnot. We're about to have like this incredibly emotional scene. Again, shout out to the crew. Like you could tell, like things just went quiet. And there's moments in which she walks into the water, and then she has to walk out,

and then the older version of Laurel walks into the water or whatnot. And I'm standing there just trying to like stay in the zone so that it can cut back and forth between two of them or what have you. And you could tell she was nervous. As she mentioned, I was like, yeah. Now, this is okay. I like this. Like we should be comfortable.

Like scenes, and you guys know this, But a lot of people on the outside, like somebody said, like, yo, somebody ate that scene. Somebody killed them. Like, they couldn't even hang in the screen with them. Nobody's trying to kill anybody in the scene. The scene doesn't win if we're not doing it together. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And that's like, I hope everybody knows that. Like young actors, old actors, the audience who's watching it, like, nobody's trying to beat. We're trying to create something beautiful together. Together, a moment together, yeah. And you guys accomplish that. for sure. Thank you. I can't wait to get to those episodes.

Yeah. Me too. Me too. That's the end of you. You want to look into the camera? You want to tell them the name of the show, Big Doug? That Was Us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions.

Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da da da da da da da da da da'am. That was us.