That Was Us - Time Capsule | "The Cabin" (414) with Director Catherine Hardwicke

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

On today’s episode of That Was Us, we’re diving into Season 4, Episode 14: The Cabin. As the Big Three reunite at the family cabin, old wounds reopen, including flashbacks to Kate’s toxic relationship with Marc, and a rediscovered time capsule gives them a long-lost piece of Jack. Plus, here to join the discussion is the Director of this episode, Catherine Hardwicke (Twilight, Thirteen, Lords of Dogtown)! Catherine chats about her memories of filming with the cast at the cabin, the drawing she created that’s featured in the episode, and so much more! That Was Us is produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. ------------------------- Support Our Sponsors: Help protect your home systems – and your wallet – with HomeServe againstcovered repairs. Plans start at just $4.99 a month. Go to https://HomeServe.com tofind the plan that’s right for you. Brought to you by Bombas, One Clothing Item Purchased = One Clothing Item Donated Head over to https://Bombas.com and use code TWU for 20% off your first purchase. ------------------------- 🍋 About the Show: The stars of This Is Us, Mandy Moore, Sterling K. Brown, and Chris Sullivan, dive back into the world of the Pearsons, reliving each episode and all the life lessons that came with it. Together, they dig in and dig deep, have the tough conversations, bring in very special and familiar guests, share never-before-heard behind-the-scenes moments, and feature listeners in highly anticipated fan segments. Join your favorite family back in the living room to examine our past, cherish our present, and look to the future with new episodes of That Was Us every Tuesday. ------------------------- 00:00:00 Intro 00:00:32 Discussion 01:05:31 Fan Segment 01:27:09 Outro Executive Producers: Natalie Holysz and Rob Holysz Creative Producer: Sam Skelton Production Coordinator: Andrew Rowley Video Editor: Todd Hughlett Mix & Master: Jason Richards Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On today's episode of That Was Us, we're diving into season four, episode 14, The Cabin. As the Big Three reunite at the family cabin, old wounds reopen, including flashbacks to Kate's toxic relationship with Mark, and a rediscovered time capsule gives them a long-lost piece of Jack. Hello, friends. Hello. How are you both? Hello.

Hello. Wonderful acoustics. I'm great. How are you guys? You look great. Dress is dressing. Yeah. Hair is hair and makeup.

I mean, you look like sophisticated, like a grown-ass woman. Like, not that you aren't because that's exactly what you're on. For once. How is, you've been working on the new Fogelman show for the past month or so? Yeah. Good? It's been going great. It's a great time. So much fun, yes.

Is it like, is the part like Rebecca? Not quite. Not at all. She is a tough cookie this one. Not that Rebecca wasn't a tough cookie. She's just, yeah, she's like competitive and driven and doesn't really take any prisoner. She's, you know, she's gunning for one thing in life and doesn't care what gets in her way. This feels very ariesentric.

Very airy-centric. You feel in line with this. No, that's what's fun about it. Like, you know what I mean? It's just doing something wholly different. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But see, I'm saying this because there's a hidden side to Mandy Moore that people don't frequently get to see it.

Well, if you push me. Oh, man, I've had the flashes of seeing it. They're delightful, aren't they? They're exhilarated. They are delightful. You're like, there she is. Well, you know, you got to advocate for yourself. It's like when Chrissy's Florida comes out.

Oh, I love it. Oh, I love when Christy's Florida comes out. Accelerating. Yeah. It's delightful. So then do you get to curse in this one? Oh, yeah. Okay.

There have been some scenes where I'm like, this is too many Fs. Like it's just a lot of Fs. F, F, F, F, F, F, F, that. I'm like, I was like, is this, is this gonna be too much? Do you smoke? No, no, no. No smoking. But you can curse.

Yeah. Lots of cursing. You banging anybody? Maybe. Oh, exhilarating. Let go, let go, let go. We shall see. What's up with you, Vic Dog?

How's life been since last we've seen each other? Life is life. I'm firmly planted in the middle of my life at age 45. The house is, we both are. The house is full of young toddlers and perimenopause and creaky knees. Yeah. And yeah, life's life. I'll tell you what's going on with Brown.

I was able to take off the boot. The boot is gone. The boot is gone. There's an Utt. I can like rotate and circle. It's still taped up though. Yes, yeah, it's still taped up. And when I walk, I walk like a big boy.

Like I take small steps. Uh-huh. Right? And I'm like, look at you, big boy. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels good. I'm very excited.

So thank you all for that. Now, we've updated. Everybody seems to be in a good place. Let's talk about this episode. We're getting towards the end of the season, right? Yeah. There's usually like a nice little build as we get to the end of the season. Yeah, yeah.

Almost two thirds in the way done. with the show. Crazy, right? It's crazy. When did we start this? Last year. We're flying through this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just last year. We are flying through this. Jiminy Christmas. That's right. Heaven's to Murgatroyd, everyone. Okay, so I was today years old when I found out that Mark, K's ex-boyfriend spells his first name with the C, and that should have been our first red flag.

If you don't spell your name with a K and your name is Mark, you're probably not the coolest person. And he was not the coolest person. Yeah. It was interesting to see this episode because I realized over these last few episodes, talking about him raises my pressure. Yeah, yeah. Have we, is he the least cool person in all of this is us?

Yeah. I think he is. Oh, without a doubt. With, I mean, far. Does anybody even compare? Far and away? I would probably say yes. Probably.

Like he gets, I get agitated. Like, this is, when you come to it, now that we mention it's kind of odd that, that the writers have offered him not a one, one. redeeming quality. Like most people... I think purposefully that. Sure. Sure. Like in terms of representing a point in time in her life. Yeah.

Where she was willing to attach herself to just someone that gave her attention. Yes. Right? And that because she felt like her father passed away and she wasn't getting any... And it's like, this is like the first boy who like has looked at me in a way that makes me feel wanted. Yes. And then so like, I think she had to go through that in order to realize that like there's more a life than just being wanted by someone. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. I hope everybody doesn't have to learn that lesson. Yeah. I know. Have you gone through, have you had to learn that lesson? Oh, yeah. Well, we won't go too far.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. I married it. She's said it. Not me. You can stop short. It's okay. I'm like offline.

I got another story for you guys. Yeah. I know another mark. I know. I definitely know a mark. Yeah. But yeah, it is, it is disappointing when you realize like there are some people that for a variety of different reasons do have to learn this lesson or end up learning

this lesson. Amen. Amen. Yeah. Should we start at the beginning? So this is, we find Jack and Rebecca and the 12, 13 year old version of the big three. They're at the cabin and Jack decides that he wants to do a time capsule. Have you guys ever done a time capsule? Like at school or anything? I don't think I've ever even participated at school in one. I may have done one at school, but never as a family. I think I'm recording one right now. Oh, I love that. Cute.

I think I've been working on one for a couple years. Yeah. But Jack is insistent that they do a time capsule. And so, of course, like, the kids kind of fan out and figure out, like, what they're going to do, what they're going to put in this time capsule. Jack and Rebecca are participating as well. That's right. I guess we could kind of like just stick with a time capsule? Yeah, go for it.

Jack ends up drawing this. this sort of, this cabin that sort of would, he's imagining and dreaming that it sort of sits at the top of their property. So I thought that was kind of cool. Like they don't just have the cabin that they're living in. They kind of have like some of the surrounding property. And you see him sort of sketching in his mind's eye like this, this dream of like a beautiful home that kind of sits on top of the hill in front of them. And he wants to build it one day. And he ends up what, like tossing it, right? Like, tossing it in the garbage.

That is correct. And Rebecca ends up fishing it out, and that's what she puts in her time capsule. That is correct. We come to find out what everybody gets later in the episode, but I just thought that was a very sweet thing that, you know, Rebecca believes in him. Yes, she does. Even when he doesn't believe in himself. Yeah.

And then the big reveal at the end of the episode, which we'll get to as well. Right, right. And then there's Kevin Randall. Randall freaks out about everything. He's like, I don't know. I'm gonna put in this is a big deal. Like, it's gotta mean something, et cetera, et cetera. And part of their reveal also is that Kevin's like,

why are you making such a big deal out of this whole thing? Like it's not that deep, like just relax, et cetera, et cetera. And then there's a payoff to that as well. So I won't mention the payoff yet. So we see Kate and Mark, right? Yeah. And I think when we left off, when we left off in the last episode, had he just left and then the episode starts with him coming.

He had just locked her out. At the end of this up, right? Not locked her out. Had he dumped her on the side of the road? Dumped her on the side of the road. And then you see when Kate is on the phone with Rebecca, you see that he's come back and he's offering her a blanket. He's got the blanket and so we see them going into the-

Yeah, and she basically is like, yeah, Mom, I got to go. They're arriving at the cabin and they're there. And they get in an argument over something while they're at the cabin? Yeah. What was the art? It was over the mug. That's right, right? Oh, you guys.

So she's, they're like, she's making tea or something. Yeah. And he goes to grab a mug. And he happens to grab, like, her dad's mug. With his face on it. Yeah, it says world's greatest dad. World's greatest dad. And she's trying to be real sweet.

She's like, you know what, bro? Could you just, like, pick a different mug? And he's like, why? What's the big deal? And he's like, that's just, does she explain it? Or does she just like? She did. She said this is the last, like, he's the last person that used that.

He's the only person. So, like, could you pick a different one? Which any? normal human being would be like, absolutely, oh my God, of course. This is like your dad's mug. Once in honor of Mandy's new show, fuck Mark, bro. Yeah. And I won't say too much because, you know, I want it to still air and not get bleaked.

So I get one per episode, right? Is that the rule? Are we getting demonetized? I'm not going crazy. Exactly. We're still trying to pay the bills. Yeah. But I just wanted to say it one time, right?

Yeah. Because then he starts, like, playing around with the mug and like, oh, What happens here? And it's like, bro, like, why would I turn to you and just ask you to use a different mug and then you make light of this request? I'm not making these kinds of requests all the time. Just on the request and grab a mug.

He winds up playing with it da-da-da-da. Off-camera, we hear the crash of the mug. He purposefully did that, by the way. That wasn't like a... You think so? 100%. I think it was like, oops, it wasn't a... Did you read it that way?

I'm curious. I felt like it was the playing down. went too far and then he yeah but you think it was intentional I do I think it was like oops slipped out of my hands because it wasn't like wow yeah I wasn't too hard to you know I go with that's like whatever like I as a dude I think maybe I was trying to give no benefit of the doubt no he doesn't deserve any of that no benefits for Mark no benefits for Mark so this dude drops the mug and Kate's like yo man like I so sort of over

herself. And so she goes, I'm where, like, she needs some space and smear because it's cold inside the cabin. Oh, wait, but hold on. Oh, please tell me. He breaks it. And she goes, and he tells her, like, to relax or something. She's like, oh, yeah. Instantly. Like, I'm going to take life advice from an unemployed record store cashier. That was really good. Oh, it was great. That was an awesome clapback. Yeah. And then she goes, I'm going to go out and get some, like, wood for the fire. And he's like, what? So you can make some more to stuff your fat face. I, you guys, I, I, I, I, I almost fucking threw something at my TV. I was...

Number two. Sorry, two. There's two. Sorry. I was livid. Livid. Yeah. Livid.

Livid. This is... Without giving anything away, I'm glad this dude is gone. Like, I'm just... Yeah. I'm glad this dude is gone. We'll get to how he winds have gone,

but like, I'm glad this dude is gone. Because he raises my pressure. And by the way, in the beginning of, like, when they get to the cabin like that, he says, like, he apologizes and says he loves her. and like, does she still love him? And she's like, you know, of course. Oh, totally.

It's like, oh. Yeah. So the fat face. Yep. She leaves to go get the wood. She comes back to the house. And he's locked the door. Guys.

Locked her out. Like in the last episode, he drove off and kicked her out of the car or whatnot. Like, he's past inexcusable. Like, he's irredeemed. We're on a psychopath. He's irredeemable. One thousand percent. And so we see her like desperately...

She's freezing. Trying to get into the house. Yeah. She's not in a jacket. She's just in her sweater. Went out to go grab some wood. And we have a shot of my man. Was he drinking from his mug?

Having tea. Having tea and just... Ignoring her. Yeah. Like Dexter. And she is going around the house, like banging on the window, trying to see if anything's open. Yeah.

Okay. And he's full on just ignoring her. Like a sociopath. Like a serial killer spinoff. Yeah. With Mark. Believable. So, but mom and brothers arrive and they're sort of like playing house making.

Mark's making pancreatic. They're on their way, by the way. They can't get there that night. The road is closed. There's a tree down. Do they end up sleeping in the car? It's weird because like I don't know what ends up happening. They went back to that old motel.

Cook some weenies over the. With some poker brick. but but because they end up like arriving there that morning right there's no I don't know what happened in the ensuing hours but but you're right they get there and kind of play it off like we were just worried about the storm we wanted to come and check on you guys and mark and kate sort of greet them with this like air of domesticity of like oh we're just making breakfast like yeah come on in like everything's fine which is very disconcerted you're like what like as an audience you're like, I know that, like, stuff was really, like, something went wrong.

We jumped a big part here. Yeah, exactly. Like, he locked you out last night. Like, somehow something got fixed because, but you do clock that, like, it's, you know, the boys are like, okay, they sit down and have pancakes and Rebecca's a little dubious. Like, what is going on? Yeah. And the boys are like, it's really cold in here.

What's going on? And they're like, oh, yeah, you know, we haven't, like, lit a fire yet. Like, it is a little bit chilly. And then Randall notices the window is broken in the family room. Oh, Encyclopedia Brown beyond it, Jack. Yeah, yeah. Was it, what was first, the cut on the hand? No, no, no.

The breeze of the curtain. The breeze of the curtain. And then they noticed like Kate's wearing gloves. Right. And she's like, oh, yeah, because I'm so cold. Right. And they're like, you didn't realize that there was a window broken? Yeah.

And she's like, oh, no, when did that happen? They're like, no, there's no. There's no broken glass. You guys clearly knew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. cleaned up the glass, and then she has to fess up to the fact that, like... She takes, she's like, take the gloves off. Also, like, take the glove off, and we see that there's a massive gash.

She has a cut hand. And she then covers from Mark and says, oh, so annoying. We accidentally, like, locked ourselves out last night and had to break the window. And I got this cut, like, no big deal, right? Trying to play it off. Mm-hmm. And? I'm trying to vocalize or make dramatic silence, because it's hard for me to talk.

I, I, I, it's, it's upsetting. It's a very upsetting thing. Yeah. These brothers. He confesses to like, you know, we got in a little fight. I locked her out. I locked her out, you know, for a little while. And then, you know, she, as I was coming to the door to let her in, you know, she wound up breaking the glass to the thing.

And, you know, no. And that's where, like, collectively you could see the three of them. Mom and brothers just be like, nah, bra. Time's up. Kev was like, no, let's go outside right now. Yeah. Right. And this was the 90s.

Yeah. They could have gotten away with whatever they wanted to in the woods. Exactly. There was no social media. A lot of stuff. There were no camera phones. The good old days. I don't know if anyone would miss that guy.

You know what I'm saying? It seems like they got a lot of property out in those woods. It was ultimately Rebecca just being like, hey, bro, it's time for you to get out and you don't need to see my daughter ever again. Yeah. Get the hell out of here. Ever again. To which Mark's like, fair enough. Like he...

Oh, there was no argument. I will say his moment of silent acting. Yeah. Where they'd put the camera on him, he goes through like three or four different facial expressions. Yeah. Just facial expressions. Yeah, yeah.

That was like, that was some agile. He was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Performance. He was very... Yeah, because it's like he wanted to say something, but then he didn't. And then he felt, hmm... Do I feel bad?

No. Fair enough, I should go. Like, it was all, it's so much happening at once. Oh, God, it was really good. I watched it. It was really good. Yeah. He's good.

He's great. He had to be fantastic in order for me to feel how I feel. Yeah. Yeah. If our job is to evoke an emotional response in our audience. Mission accomplished. Bro. He was fantastic.

Yeah. Give Austin. His flowers. His flowers for performance. He was great. Agreed. The character. and eat a phallus.

Oh, but I think that, I think the saddest part of all of this is when Rebecca is hugging Kate and she's like, he said that he loved me. Yeah. Rebecca's like, I bet he did. I'm sure he did. And it's just like, oh, for this, again, anyone to have to learn this lesson for a young woman who just lost her father. Who's, you know, probably had feelings for someone for the first time in her life and felt like they had feelings for her and just like that sense of worthiness and value and everything that kind of is wrapped up in a relationship like that is it just yeah it's like i you can see the path that it could potentially set someone like kate on if you look into the future you know what i mean it's like oh this was this was a big part of her story huge yeah yeah we'll be right back with more

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That's homeserve.com. Not available everywhere. Most plans range between $4.99 and $11.99 a month for your first year. Terms apply on covered repairs. Canada's Wonderland is bringing the holiday magic this season with Winterfest. On select nights, now through January 3rd, step into a winter wonderland filled with millions of dazzling lights,

festive shows, rides, and holiday treats. Plus, Coca-Cola is back with Canada's Kindest Community, celebrating acts of kindness nationwide with a chance at 100,000 donation for the winning community and a 2026 holiday caravan stop. Learn more at canadaswunderland.com. Yeah, it's so interesting how we can get ourselves stuck when we're, when we're, we have something we need to learn. Yeah.

Right? About ourselves or about what it means to be in relationship. Because I've had relationships that were abusive emotionally, you know, where it's like all of a sudden you're just like, what is, what's happening here? Like, why are we doing this? Yeah. And I guess it, I guess it all comes down to like. we're all going to experience these pains, one way or another, right? In some way.

Sure. And what do we learn from them? What do we take from them? How do we evolve past this? And I guess I kind of wonder if Kate does, you know, looking at this relationship, like what, if we look at this, this is new information, right, about her life experience. Yeah. And we know about this woman's life up to a certain point in the show.

so far. Like, how has it affected her? How has it always affected her? How has she learned from it? How has she evolved past it? Yeah, it's a big piece of information. It's a big piece of information. And it clearly is something she carries with her into other relationships and the way she moves through the world and the way that she sees herself. Like, there's a lot wrapped up in this. Do you feel, do you feel as if like they're, because I have the sense that she's a different person because of it. Sure. You know what?

Is that season five, the dude in the diner? Has we ever done the dude in the diner? No. Season five? I think it's five. I think. Yeah, it is interesting, right? Like, it's about how one values themselves and what they believe they are worthy of.

Yeah. Because we're usually attracted to people that we consider ourselves like, oh, yeah, that person, I deserve that. Yeah, it's interesting. as all those, as the wiring is still happening, as the brain is still making connections. And in childhood, through my years of therapy, right, one of the more interesting things that I've learned

is that a kid will always put the wrongs of the world on themselves before they blame the world. It's impossible for a kid to change the external world. So if something feels off or something feels wrong, the easiest thing to do is to change me. Like, it must be me. Yeah. Must be something about me. Well, it's easier to control that than it is the world.

Exactly. And so if we look at Kate's life as a kid up until now, the trouble she has socially with the other girls or the boys or whatever it is, like she's constantly trying to adjust who she is to fit the current, the current ex-te. internal situation. Yeah. And it can lead to these kind of really dangerous situations. Yeah. But I do feel like present day Kate chose you. Mm-hmm.

You're kind. Like Toby is kind and loving and generous in a way that I feel like is deserving, that she is deserving of you. You know what I'm saying? But it took her a long time to get there. Just a harder, harder lesson to learn than for others, maybe, you know, or, but even still, you know, they, they obviously, you know, we know, we all know where this is going. You know, it doesn't necessarily work out. That doesn't mean that it wasn't successful.

Successful. True. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I want to try, because like, I feel like, I mean, it's like a 50-50 thing for everybody, right? This marriage game or what have you. And because it ends, because it ended between you two, doesn't mean there wasn't a beautiful chapter of her life.

True, true. I think the evolution goes on longer for some than others, as far as like the lessons that are being learned. Agreed. Modern day, right? Randall and Beth? And then we can go, yeah. Yeah, tell me about Randall and Beth.

He's got his cast on. Annie's signing his cast. Beth is going to go visit her mom. That's right. And she's really pushing him to go to the cabin. Yes. And he's still grappling with having to hide mom's news from Kevin. Correct.

Not from Kate, because Kate knows now. Then I have that Kevin and Madison are in bed together. Madison's still in bed. Post hookup. Post hookup. She recognizes this is a huge violation of Lady Code, sleeping with the brother. Is there? I don't know about Lady Code.

I was not to say. I mean, there's a no bros before. et cetera sort of thing, for fellas. What rhyme? What rhymes is bros? Guys, I'm 49, though. I have, you know, I have some. Bros before equally respected sex workers.

The oldest profession is also respectable. If it is something you approach from a healthy, Anyways. But does the same thing exist amongst the ladies? I mean, maybe for some. Would you date? Not for me, have you dated your friends? Yeah, exactly.

Have you dated a friend's ex-boyfriend? No. Okay. I wouldn't do that. I guess that's lady code. For me, like the code goes because I have, I married her. But I asked the dude, I was like, are you, have things sort of between you and Ryan settled or whatnot, do you mind if I get in there?

approach. Can I get in there? You mean where? Get in there. Got it. Got it. I mean... She's on a new show. It's on Hulu, everybody.

Stay tuned. Oh, that's wrong. That's so funny. No, but I get that. And yes, I would imagine that's where the Lady Code sort of comes in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, Kate and Kevin are twins. Like, I, you know, they have a very close relationship.

And so Kate seems to be, like, like, you know, they have a very close relationship. Yeah. And so Kate seems to be, like, like. that seems to mean a lot more to her, like, that no one sort of mess with her brother. This is true. They're closely connected, right? So they make a pact to, like, keep it to themselves. Yeah.

No need to burden her. She's like, oh, absolutely. Like, I'm not telling your sister this happened. And we see, like, this little joke she makes. She makes a joke to Kevin about, well, being together forever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right?

That we're in love. And tell her that we're in love and that we're going to be together forever. It was so good. It was so good. And it was such like a great, just a small character development. Yeah. They're like, okay, sense of humor. Yeah.

All right. Show up to the hospital with the donuts. Totally. A little thing here, a little thing here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder why Madison has such a good character development. Yeah. It's a real slow build.

I love it. It's great. A four-season build. They keep it. Decide to keep it to sit themselves. So we're at the cabin. Randall's there first. I guess, yeah, we could do that and then go back to Kate and Toby.

It's hard because it's like there's a little bit of like before everybody, like everybody leaves to go to the cabin, right? Yeah. Kate and Toby are home and she's going over the rules and stuff because she's leaving to go to the cabin. I think we should do to Kate and talk. You're right. Just to get that out of the way. And like once we're at the cabin with all three of them, it kind of becomes a separate story.

line. Agreed. So Kate is obviously leaving Jack with Toby. She's going over all the rules of like, this is when he has milk, this is what he can eat, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yes. And she's just very worried. And she's just as like, you know what, I could just take him. And Toby insists, like, I got it. Yeah. Which I get. You know, you're just sort of like, oh, you've never done any of this before. And there's a lot of schedules and whatnot. I did clock the fact that like there was a cheek kiss. Yep. No lip lock?

Oh, yeah. Right, right, right. No lip lock. Yeah. I was like, oof. Because Jack and Rebecca, they only, it's Jack and Rebecca. And Beth and Randall. And Beth and Randall.

Jack and Rebecca. Is that tongue in there? This is just two lips, like, you know, the part. Like eating? Yeah. Eating the lips. Yeah, yeah. You got a watch.

You and Beth have some sensual kisses. Me and Beth got a lot of lip. Yeah. We got a lot of lip. Yeah, it's not bad. It's not a bad. I watch. Not a bad job.

Not a bad job. Somebody got to do it. I watched those over and over again. She was like, blu-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l. Doop, ten second. Boop-boop-boop. Boop-boop. Doop-doop.

Yep. Doop-doop smoo. There is. So it's a little, not frosty, but not congenial, you know, less than, it could be. Less than ideal. There's also sticking with this. So before we go to the cabin, man, I want to talk to you about just this whole scene with you and your baby, boy um so well i started off by teeing it up because it was a beautiful scene you're making

eggs for your son yeah right uh you sit down everything is going great you know just sort of providing like there's there's there's also this thing that i want to acknowledge is like dads sort of relish the opportunity to do things their way yeah listen i'm saying this to all the moms you you can tell us everything that we need to know and we were going to take it in As long as at the end of the day, you're comfortable that, like, we may change some things. And it'll all get done and it'll all be cool. I'm curious. Like, when you leave your husband with the kids, like, how much, like, do you say, like, make sure you da-da-da-da?

Or do you're just like, you know what? Taylor's got it. I'm leaving this dude long. Taylor's got it. Yeah. I'm sure Rachel feels the same way. And Ryan feels the same way. It's just sort of like, not at all.

Not at all. Not at all. I get lots of instructions. You got a list? Really. I get just like sort of reminders and text, which is cool. I appreciate them and anything like that. But I do secretly think that she thinks the house will be burned down

and her children will be lost to the streets. Yes. Wow. That's so funny. Maybe there's different needs as kids get older, too, of just sort of like make sure that Amari has this jersey for this thing. You know, like that kind of specificity, I feel like, I definitely, yes, like I remind Taylor. But big picture, I'm like, oh, he's got it.

Like he's going to feed them and bathe them and, like, play with them and have fun. like everything that's great. As my friend John says, the 90% of parenting before the age of five years old is just trying to find interesting places to eat snacks. Yeah.

That is so true. Wow. Where can we take you to eat this granola bar? I dig that. So you found my man's eating his eggs and he's having a good time and he's chewing and eating and everything. And then you clock.

Like, and first of all, how do you get this baby to do this stuff? Like, it looked. I stuck some eggs in there. Okay, stop. I'm kidding. Okay. Stop.

But, but like, there's moments where I look at his face, and I'm like, what's happening? There's a little bit of digital enhancement. Okay. Okay. Wow. It's great. Lawless. Yeah, but they've also caught him in moments of, like, you know, crying or whatever the thing was.

Yeah, yeah. Because what happens in the scene is that it seems as if my man is choking on the eggs. Yeah. And then his dad clocks it like, hey, man, you know. be okay. So you go immediately, which any parent would. You know, it's like, oh, I got to, you're trying to, I think you try to dig in first to see if you can get it out of his mouth and that's not working. Flip that kid over. And you do the, yeah. Get on that back and try to get that stuff out. And I think, is that ultimately what dislodge? Yeah, there's a couple of flips. Yeah. And a little bit of CPR. That's right. Yeah, yep, yep. And it's, and you, and as a dad, look, when you get.

left, like, you're like, all right, it's my time to shine. So this opportunity's like, I can't lose one, not on my one. Listen, I might want to do things my way, but we can't lose one. We can't lose one. The first time she leaves. It's a non-starter. It all goes wrong. But the, the relief and the joy. When everything's okay. It's so also palpable. And it's like, you just go in on that cheek and you just eat his face Talk to me about it because I, these few episodes, I'm trying to remember, is this mid-pandemic? No, no, no, this is pre-pandemic. This is pre-pandemic.

When do we come back? We took a break between four and five because we decided if we were going to incorporate the pandemic into season five. Instead of starting in July of 2020, we started in September. Yeah. That's what it was. So this was still end of 2019 because, or. very beginning, like January of 2020, because I remember New York, New York, New York, that episode, which is like two after this was like. Oh, sure. You guys wouldn't have gone

to New York. February of 2020. Like, it was right before the pandemic. Yeah. Jiminy Christmas. The only reason I was trying to calculate was because was it pre-baby. My own child. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was. There's something else that happens, even as I watch myself, there's a there's and and maybe it's the maybe it's the the current state of toby and kate that like shifts everything but there's i don't know there was like a there's a new side to me that i'm seeing as i watch especially with the baby yeah and like you said like this is even before i know she's pregnant yeah yep she's not even pregnant yeah so it's like but i'm i'm recognizing the future father, right, in ways that I, that I hadn't before.

That's so cool. There's, maybe it's a casualness. Well, I'm telling you, like, when I saw you on set with that baby, I said, you look like you're, but she was pregnant at that time, I think. Yes. I saw you and I was like, you're really comfortable there to Vic Dog. Yeah. But like a few episodes down, you know, in the next few episodes, I'm like flying that baby around.

Yeah. It's putting it in people's faces and throwing them up. And like, this is somebody else's baby. Yeah. But at that point in time, he's also kind of yours as well. Yeah. Like there's this, I remember. This episode is where that shift really happens.

I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Do you, I would do these things on Army Wives where I had this daughter, who was played by twins. And I would just go into her trailer before we shoot for like 20 minutes. And I just play with both of them. I just hang out or whatnot. So that when we got on set.

They were comfortable. Like, they were ready to hang out. And even still now, like, I have, if I have to deal with a baby or whatnot, I spend as much time with the baby beforehand. Now, they have rules because the nurses, like, you know, holding the baby. So you have to hang out with the nurse where back in the early arts, I was just like, get rid the baby. You know what I said?

And like, I said, mom and dad, you can come with me. Where's Sterling? But the nurse thing is a fairly, it wasn't in the early 2000s, right? But there's a nurse that's always there, which is one. But it is, like, there's something about acting with a child that frees you up in a way that it's hard to describe until you do it. And then you feel the difference when they take the baby out and they bring in the doll.

Yeah. For sure, it's like the unpredictability of, like, kids are so unselfconscious. Like, they're not thinking about a performance. They're just being. They're just existing. And you're just with them in that moment. You're just present.

So yeah. And that scene, that joking scene is flip for you. flopping around between baby and doll a bunch. Okay. Yeah. Right? And it's hard. They don't, you can't really tell.

And I know Catherine Hardwick directed this episode. Yeah. But for whatever reason, I feel, I remember Ken being there for this scene. I don't know why he would have done that. Maybe she couldn't have, this is like a, after this is like a, going on or something. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Maybe I'm misremembering. It's all good. But yeah, it was, I remember really being panicked by that scene. Yeah. Especially having to like actually flip the real child over a couple of times. just for the action of it. Yeah, but you got a big hand. He wasn't going anywhere.

That's a good for that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that scene was a lot. It was great. It was really beautiful. Like, I felt the relief. I felt the joy and just like that connection. When I see you kiss that boy and just like, oh, man, you still, it reminds me.

It reminds me of when my 14-year-old used to let me kiss him. That's what it reminds me. Relish it while you can, everybody. Oh, no. Oh, no. All right, so let's get to... Well, and then, and Toby ends up taking Jack to the doctor as any sweet dad who's been very rattled by something and wants to make sure everything is okay. Sure.

And the doctor assures them like, thank you for bringing him, but like his airways look clear. Everything's all good. Thank goodness he had a dad like you. Something like that, right? Yeah, yeah. And this is when there is that perceptible shift of Toby's like, wow. Wow, like something could have happened. I love this boy so much.

This is my son. And immediately takes him home and starts, like, introducing him to his own world, the things that he loves, which are Star Wars and realizes, like, he may not be able to see these characters, but he can hear them. Yeah. You did some good. Sound effects. Great.

Thank you for noticing. Yes, sir. Oh, yeah. I was like, I was like, Chris has got to be, like, such a fun. one dad, doing Chewbacca, doing the sound of the lightsaber. I'm like, this is rad. It was wonderful. It was great.

It was a good time. I do enjoy those moments. Like, I am a dork. You probably just have them on call, but like, I will go and watch the movie for a second. Just be like, I want to make sure I get this right here. Like I had to do a rain man thing in the jig, and I definitely went back and watched. I'll check out a clip. Yeah, I'll check a clip.

It's fun. It's fun. Yeah. Now we get to the cabin. Now we get to the cabin. With the grown big three. The grown big. Big three, get to the cabin, and Randall's there, and then his brother and sister come in,

warm greetings from everybody, and I'm going to miss some stuff, so, man, I'm going to need your help because what I'm remembering is that the power goes out. But before that, tell me, see, this is what I need. Well, when the power goes out, almost immediately, you panic in there, like, I need to, I need to go home, right? Yeah. Yeah. They're like, why? Yeah.

You're like, I need to check my security cameras. Check the cameras. I can't contact my Wi-Fi. Yeah. And they're like, but your wife's not even at home. Yeah. No, she said you mean your wife that went to the movies with your kids that won't be back for another couple of out? They went out of town. Yeah, yeah, that's right. They went to visit. They were in D.C. or something? Yeah, yeah. They went to go visit her mom. So this is maybe the first, like the first real erratic.

Yeah. Your anxiety is ratcheted up to like 12. It's high. I've definitely made moves like that where I'm panicked and I'm like, I guess I have to go. And then you're gone. You're like, whoa, why did you jump to that? Like, that's not an appropriate reaction to what happened. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, brother and sister are definitely looking at me.

And so the worry, the worry, they have all brought, each one has brought an issue to the table, right? That's right. And the other two are going to try and help the one with the thing, whatever the thing is. And they all have a bit of a secret. And now the power's out. Oh, yeah. And they're lit by candles. Yeah.

And all the reveals start to happen. Wait, wait, we go to town first? Yeah, they go to the market. Right. Which is where everyone's sort of checking in with their respective. That's one scene, by the way. Yeah, that was fun. Because there's crossover, like, you were following one person into another.

Yeah, and once that conversation ended, then Randall, like, walks. Yeah. Yeah. So Kate calls checks in on Jack and Toby. They're good. Yeah. You hear Randall leaving a message for Beth. He's trying to get a hold of her.

He wants her to check the camera. She's obviously, like, at a movie or whatever. Right. And then you see Kate also getting a message from Madison to call her. And then there's another message where she basically admits to everything. Well, there's like a buildup. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's like several messages.

And she's talking to Kev and it's like, hey, I just got this message from Madison. He's like, oh, I wonder what that could be. He's saying too much. He's saying too much. He's got another message from Madison. Yeah. There's like three or something. Oh, she's okay.

I guess I could be about anything. And then she just sort of like lets it all out. And he hears it. And he's like, look, I wasn't, it wasn't intentional. I'm sorry. And like, shouldn't he get credit for not sleeping with Sophie? Like, he says something about that too. Like, come on, I got to get some credit for something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm wondering, like, if I was in a similar situation, like, how upset would or wouldn't I be? Like, I don't have anything analogous to that. Like, my brother or sister sleeping with. one of my friends. It would be sort of strange, I suppose. Yeah, but you think, like, two single people, like, maybe it's not the greatest decision, but, like, that's not that big of a deal? Right. But if you're also doing any kind of, this is us, time jump math. Sure. This has to be it. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Or does it, but it's like, the math is mathing. Yeah.

It is a thing, too, because, like, if the math is mapping, right, that means that it was a raw dog, like raw dog. The first time. The first time. That's right. How irresponsible is it. Very irresponsible. Let this be a PSA. Great googly-moogly, man.

Well, we have identified that Kevin has a problem. You just diving in without a swim cap. You don't know this chick? Without a swim cap. What the heck is going on? Yeah, you're a person of note, too. Jiminy Christmas. People would gladly have your baby and, like, examine.

stored you. Yes, which is, I guess, what happens. Which is why he feels safe with Madison? I don't know. Maybe because she feels like family or something like that, like Madison wouldn't do it. When you're here, your family. Lord, mercy. I can't. But yeah, if the math is math, math and the way nine months in the future, he's expecting, like, wow. Yeah. So.

Wow. You're right, Chris. I mean, this is the first indicated. He just procreated. More that was us after this short break. This time of year, we're all about comfort. And bombus nails it. Sox, slippers, teas, even underwear that feels like a second skin. The difference is in the material.

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Visit your local Nissan dealer today or nisan.ca for more details. Least term for 48 months with 1,249 down conditions apply. But while we're here at this... this market, she does, he freaks out. And he's like, I want to leave because he can't get a hold of Beth and the girls. Right, right, right, right. Sorry, Randall wants to leave. And this is where. This is the movie. Like she was in the movie or something. Yeah. And then it's sort of like, oh, false alarm. They're in a movie. Yep. And, but it still is enough to like really rattle Kevin and Kate. They're like, something's wrong with Randall. Like that, again,

that is a disproportionate response to not being. able to reach his wife and kids and wanting to leave and fly all the way back home or drive home or whatever. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, dude. He says that he's fine. He's just exhausted. You know, like all of the traveling that he's been doing this L.A.

trip. And Kevin's like, wait, L.A. trip. What L.A. trip? I thought you were in Boston or wherever he lied and said he was for a work trip. Let me tell you. My man was like, Jacques, I mean, like, Inspector Crusoe. He was like, wait a minute. And Kevin's work here, too. Justin's work here.

His, like, deduction, like, piecing it. Yeah, like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Looking at you, look at her. You were in L.A.? Like, why were you in L.A.? Because the thing that gives it away, that's what he did it. He's like, I'm going to look to my sister who was incapable of lying. He's like, did you know about this?

She's like, her face was like, yes. You know what I was like she couldn't even look him in the eye. And this is the first time, I mean, in the whole series where we really see Randall, like, floundering. Yeah. Like, it was, um, uh, uh, yeah. He has no idea what to do. No, none at all. Yeah.

And then ultimately decides, you know, has to come clean. And it's interesting because, like, I get both sides of this. Like, in this particular instance, Randall's trying to honor's mom's wishes, both, I guess, Maddalen and Kate, because they both know. And the idea is that, you know, you don't know what could send somebody into, like, knock them off the wagon, on the wagon? Yeah, off, falling off the wagon. Thank you very much. Yeah.

I don't know where the phrase got from. Okay. No booze on this wagon. I don't know. I think that's where it comes from. Is that where it got from? Got no booze on this wagon. Get on then.

Wait, just give it a few more seconds because there's going to be something else. Where's Kevin? He's on the wagon. Okay. There's going to be something else. Just give it a few minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's more.

Instead of being interrupted. Yeah, yeah. Let's just give him a second. Let him go. Let him go. The primary concern being like, you don't want to set them off, et cetera. And so she was trying to be thoughtful and respectful. Randall didn't want to keep it from.

You know what I'm saying? Like he's in a tough thing. It's an impossible position. But also it's like I think Rebecca was worried about him falling off the wagon or what his reaction would be to this news. But also I think she wanted to tell him in person herself. Like it's the both of those things. Yeah. But it's unfair to.

It's not an easy thing to ask him to keep a secret to keep. It's like, keep this monumental secret from your brother. It brings up, like, I think, this interesting history that we explore over the next few episodes about, like, Randall sort of being the person that has sort of been there to deal with things, right? Right. And then even Kate, I believe, says at the end of this episode, like, I know there must have been hard for you to keep all of this stuff to yourself, right?

And, like, maybe at a point in time in the past, we may not have been as helpful as we could have been, But we are now. Like, you can lean on us maybe in a way that you didn't think that you could in the past. Yeah. And it's really interesting, the dynamic here is very interesting for me because I feel, as we move through these next few episodes, I feel a lot like Kevin Sterling. And I have a brother, who's my older brother. Who's the Randall of the family?

Who is the Randall of the family? So it's like I have like this weird inner body, outer body thing, even as I'm acting in. Sure, sure. And because even as we're acting it, my mom was, she got diagnosed with her ALS in April of 2018, right? So this is like a year and change later. So it's like a year because by October of 2018, she couldn't even talk anymore. So it was just me calling or FaceTiming and just telling her what's going on with the family, et cetera, et cetera. And I remember an argument that my brother and I had over like what was the proper way to help mom.

through a particular situation. It's very much like Kevin and Randall. This show, man. This show. Yeah. Manifesting thing. Again, and it's like specificity is still so universally relatable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Two people coming at it from different sides. It's interesting, like, to start to clock in these next few episodes, Randall's codependency. His reliance on like, if not me, then who, to fix a situation, to take over, to handle things. And it's like the burden of that that he is placed on himself. It's like maybe it unwittingly started, you know, as a younger person feeling like, oh, I want to step in to help mom. I want to be there. And then that becoming like manifesting itself and becoming like an extension of his personality. Well, I am the helper.

I am the caregiver. I am the handler of all things, especially when it comes to mom. And then that's sort of like you get reliant on like, again, that is who I am that is my value to others and if I can't do that or be of service to someone in that way then what do I offer them

yeah it's interesting it's very interesting but we start to see those pieces of you know and his resentment about it too you know I always have to be the one to do the research about the clinical trial of the thing but you know I know we're getting to that later but like yeah yeah anyway sorry

there's a there's a disappointment that Kev has Or like, you know, when he gets the information about the cognitive impairment and a disbelief from Kev and also a frustration of being left out. Like, again, saying that like, like, I'm a grown-ass man. She's my mom. Why are people keeping this stuff from me, right? And, man, does that also tap into his wounds? Yeah. Like always.

He's always the one left out. Randall's the chosen one the favorite. Kate's the one that, like, dad chose and sort of like, you know, handled with kid gloves. and I'm the like odd man out always like Kevin's fine Kevin's fine don't worry about Kevin he'll figure things out on his own and drowning over here exactly exactly so it's like that all that does is exacerbate that like wound of his that he's carried around his whole life yeah Kate says in this conversation later she tried so hard with me and I could never give her a break right like just talking about the history of their relationship and sort of missing each other

And now, like, you know, now we're in this really good place with each other and this thing happens, right? Yeah. And she says, you know, you don't have to take this alone. Take this on alone. We're going to do this together. Yeah. And Randall, wait, what happened? They're doing the puzzle. That's what's happening.

They're doing a puzzle of the Pearson family. And they're missing a piece, right? And it's dad's face. And Randall's like, we're going outside. Because Kev has already excused himself from the frustration. of being left out. So here come brother and sister. Come Randall and Kate.

And Kev's like, what are you guys about to do? Are you guys here to murder me? Something like that. Because you're carrying a shovel. Yeah, carrying a shovel. It's so well delivered. Yeah. What, are you guys here to murder me?

Yeah. And so we find the box, right? And we see who, what everybody put inside the box. And Kev has a picture of him and Sophie. right and kate has mash like who you made what's the what's the mash thing it's like mansion apartment shack or house right something like yeah yeah it was like you picked like your top three husbands right your top three like places you would live your top like yeah and and then you made like a little origami thing and you would who are your top three husbands I mean like back in the day was probably

like Joey McIntyre from new kids on the block you know what I mean like back in the day still yesterday hubba hubba hubba John McIntyre did was a very good actor yeah oh wow he can act

where are they now I mean like touring I'm sure possibly they just did they just did this sphere did that really oh no

that's right that's right was that backstreet boys backstreet boys all right but I feel like they did tour they've been touring probably

probably okay did you want to chime in on what with your match I didn't I've never played the game It was really a girl thing in school.

By much. Yes, so obviously I've never played it. What did Randall have? What did he choose in his time castle? You're so dumb. You're dumb. You're so dumb. I want to make sure people catch it, but anyway.

Highlight that. So Randall has like a piece of the puzzle that was his dad. And Kate's like, oh, how did you think of that? What a great thing. He's like, I didn't. And you flash back to Kevin Randall and Randall freaking out over what he's supposed to put in this thing and how it's significant it's supposed to be. And you have to put in thought and time and everything. He's like, dude, just come here, follow me.

He's like, he grabs a piece of the puzzle and he was there, use this. And he's like, well, people are going to miss it. He's like, you're the only dumbass who wants to do this puzzle in the first place. And then when you find it, like everybody will think it's sweet and just trust me. It's great. And it was totally like he knew. Yeah. He did know.

Like he was absolutely right. Yeah, like get out of your head. You know what I'm saying? And then he found it and it was just the perfect thing. And there's, was there another? Oh, okay. So wait, those are the three of them. Oh, only the best part of the episode?

Sorry. Cool, cool, cool. That I texted our group chat and was like, I just wept. So I forgot about you guys about the scene. Totally forgot about it. Because I remember this scene. So they find dad's sketch, right? Thinking that that must be his sort of contribution.

to the thing. Yeah. But there's also like a tape, right? Which is dads too, right? So they go inside and they put the tape into the tape recorded and they press play. Now, and I do believe, I'm trying to remember, was this a situation where Stillman had to do it

or had Milo recorded it? And I want to say Milo had recorded it because I think we asked for it to be played. Because when we heard the voice, the three of us. I'm going to say by the look on Chrissy's face. Yeah. It was Milo. It was Milo.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure. Not that you guys aren't all extraordinary actors, but the emotion on all three of your face. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it was a surprise. Like, I don't think we knew. Where's that tape?

Yeah. Yeah. It exists, right? The tape. It has to. Of course it does. Yeah. Yeah.

It was a beautiful moment for the three of us together. So explain what was on the tape. So it's Milo is... As Jack. As Jack. No, it's just Milo. Just Milo saying, hey friends. How are you?

Yeah. Surprise. And he's talking about, like, you know, five years from now, you guys would probably all be too cool for school. And, you know, Randall's probably overthinking what he's going to put into the box. And he says it's the day that you guys are deciding. Yeah. And he says, it's the day that you guys are deciding. that you're all being

yourselves. Right. You are all handling this exactly the way you handle things. Yeah. Randall's overthinking. Yeah. Kate's leading with her heart. Yeah. Right. What's Kevin doing? Kevin is, I don't even... What is? We forgot, Kate? Oh, no.

We're just feeding into that. I don't know. He's fine, though. He's taking time. He's chilling, right? Kevin's doing some BS. And so he also says that like, you know, I wound up drawing this picture, this house that I was thinking about, and then I thought it was a little silly or whatnot. Balled it up, and I threw it in the trash. And then I was like, well, maybe I shouldn't ball it up and throw in the trash.

So I go back to the trash can. And it turns out it wasn't there. It's like, I think your mom went to the trash and got it out, right? Maybe it was a squirrel. Maybe it was... Yeah, could be. But the one quote that I had in there is that, like, She believes in my dreams.

Yeah, even when I don't. Even when I don't. And it just sort of like, just sort of regaling just how awesome it is to have someone like that to share her life. Even the line of dialogue that you say directly to him, that it was just like that part made me cry, where you're like, if you tell me that you're going to build us that house, I believe that you're going to build us that house.

Yeah. Mike. Yeah. Yeah, not a big deal. It wasn't like a grand statement. It was just sort of like, that's the truth. It takes you out your word. It can take you high.

They can take you real, real high. Like it was a special, beautiful sort of acknowledgement of just like not only do I have dreams and things that I want to realize, but I have a partner who believes in them as much. And sometimes when I don't believe in myself, who believes enough for the both of us, for everybody. Yeah. And the surprise of, like, hearing their dad's voice. Yeah.

Yeah. A voice from the grave. 20-some-odd years removed. You know what I mean? Because they were supposed to go back five years later. And they never did. But then he died. And then he died.

And they completely forgot about it. And then it comes back when they're doing the puzzle. It's amazing. Yeah. Good writing. Yeah. That's solid. Somebody must have done, like, some sort of thought.

But here's how the episode ends. Come on now. Bring it home. So they're leaving the next morning. Yeah. Kevin has that sketch from the... Is this... Saying real quick that, like, Randall talks about Beth thinking that I need to go to therapy.

Got it. Yes, yes, yes, please. Maybe Beth has a point. Because he's talking about his anxiety and sort of like, I've loved with this for such a long time, what have you. I can't remember exactly what he says, but it's something to that point. point. Oh, he says, when I subdued that mugger, I knew I had him down already. And I kept. And I just kept hitting him. And I think I was trying to get rid of all the bad stuff inside of me somehow. And then Beth thinks that I should see a therapist. And his brother

and sister look at him lovingly. So like, maybe, maybe Beth has a point. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, no, no. No. That's amazing. And a very important part of. Kate talks about her relationship with her husband. Yeah. Right. What a do What did she say in that moment between her and Tobias? Godding. I don't think my notes were good this time, guys. I apologize. Me too, me too, me too.

I was like, I'm going to remember. I'm going to remember everything. I'm going to get into it in the next episode. It gets more discussed in the next episode. Yeah, that's true. Okay, got it up. Just basically, they're leaving the next morning to go home. Yeah.

And Kevin has held on to that sketch of his dad's. Yeah. And you see him kind of like take a closer look like, huh, this is a really cool idea. Yeah. Wow. Like, I wonder Dad wanted to put it up there. That's like, that might be a cool thing. And then they do some great little, like, CGI.

It's the first time. I think it's the only time we've ever done this. Yeah. Yeah. And you see, like, the sketch. Fade in. Sort of come to life. Yeah.

And that is the house that he ends up building in the future. It's where they live. It's where everyone has gathered. on Rebecca's deathbed, I guess. I write a silver fox looking down at the old cabin. Because, once again, when everybody else gets to get old, Kevin just gets hotter. They look good.

Man. Randall, Randall, I don't know what the hell that Negro was doing, Jack. It wasn't what his brother was doing. You want to know what it is? Tell me. Anxiety. Catching up to him. That will age.

Your boy better learn to do some ojahs. Yeah, I'm trying to learn how to freeze, dog. Anxieties, ten times the strength of gravity. That looked like I got hit by a big old ugly stick. Pulls those jowls down. That's not true. Negro, you lost it. Bam.

That's not true. Because we had to adjust. I think there's a point. We slowly sort of brought it back. We brought it back. Man, we started, like, they had this dude, like, out here. I had jowls, baby. Yeah.

I had jowls. But also. How can we make it believable that Sterling has ate? But also, we really got to take it for. up in this piece when we first did that thing. Hold on. And then Justin coming there. Higgily.

Looking like freaking, uh, uh, sun dance. Let's all picture Justin. Butch Cassidy. Let's all picture Justin through this process, though, where. Hold on. He wouldn't accept it. That's what I'm talking about.

Justin's walking in and be like, no, we're doing old ADHD. He said, no, I'm not doing it. He'll say, I'm not doing that. Nope. Nope. Not that. Nope. You're not even going to test that on me.

That's not even going to be a test. Where Brown was like, well, I guess so, guys, but it doesn't feel right. Like, he runs marathons and it's like, yeah, but we need, da, blah, blah, I'm like, I just. We need to believable. It needs to be believable that he's aged. When, when Justin goes through costumes, he goes, how about what I'm already wearing? How about I just what I wore to work? How about you put a little white makeup of my whiskers?

Yeah. And we'll call that age. And we'll call that age. You know what I mean? Like, and, and then he's gone. He knew how to advocate for himself better than myself. But also, like, meanwhile, every woman was like, hot. Hot.

Looks great. He looked great. Hot. And he could not stand it. Great. Yeah. Thank you. That's all I had to say.

I'm done. But it is a beautiful moment. So he arrives at this house. Yeah. Is this, as we get into this, him entering this, is this the first time we hear the song in the show? Of what? The song to build a home. Oh, no, no.

We heard it. Remember when the fire started? That was the first time. That's right. Okay. The episode before Super Bowl, when the fire first started and you see it like igniting like the curtains in the kitchen and stuff, that's when we first heard it. It's a recurring theme. But this is, we see this house built out of stone. We see this house that is laid cement walls. You know, it's like highly modern. Yeah. And Justin enters and is greeted by Old Beth. Yeah. Yeah. Old Beth.

She's fine as hell. Older Beth is orange. She's fine as cat hair, baby. Yeah. Less anxious. Less anxious. Yeah. Then she'll age you.

I got her floppy husband. Let me tell you. Like Randall had a lot of Brown is trying to learn that I ain't going. Yeah, don't hang on to any of that. I ain't going on like that. Let this be a lesson. Let your worries go. You don't want to end up like older Randall.

Yeah. That's what the show's really about. Yeah. A warning. A warning. It was a beautiful. Yeah. It was.

Yeah, alcoholism, Justin works out fine. Yeah, he's fine. You know? That won't age you as much as anxiety. He's sober. He's so over. He's been sober for a long time. But I feel like, again, this lays the groundwork for like, where is this going?

This is all very interesting. It is, there's so much. Like, I haven't watched all the rest of them, but now I'm starting to remember. There's a lot that's about to go down. A lot. And I am, and I'm still in that mode of. being constantly surprised, like, oh, yeah. Yeah, same, same, same.

Even now, they swing around and there's the sketch of the house framed in the entryway. Oh, yeah. What a great little detail. Framed in the entryway of the house. That was nice. Great detail. And you realize that this house that we've been visiting for, I don't know how long now, a season of flash forward.

Just tiny little parts of it. Is the house that you're built. That's what I'm so. That's the thing, that like, he's still. He honored his dad. He built Jack's house, his dream home. Okay. Yeah, that's a good one.

Why don't we take a break and come back with our fan segment? Let's do that, please. Great. More of that was us coming up. We're back, and we are very excited to welcome the director of this episode to the podcast. And we have a feeling that you've maybe heard of some of her movies. Quite possibly. Yeah.

She did a movie called 13. Did a little flick called Lords of Dogtown. And, of course, I don't know if you guys have ever heard of twice. highlight and so many more incredible projects it's big it's huge and she also directed today's episode the cabin all right let's not keep everyone waiting any longer please welcome katherine hardwick all the way from greece hello hi kathie are you we wave this way we wave that way we look at you on the tv but you're over here we find you in athens greece I'm in Athens, Greece, like an Ace Hotel, whatever.

I just got off a boat, so it was pretty fun. You were on a boat! Wow! You can tell you're in an Ace because they provided a guitar, or did you bring the guitar? That guitar was here for me. That tracks. What is an Ace? Have I not?

Do I need to go in the Ace? Kind of like a rock and roll sort of hotel. I feel like there's always records in the rooms and like a music theme, for sure. Records player. Yeah. Nailed it. Nailed it. Nice.

It's so very good to see you. How are you? It's great to see you guys. I'm happy. I'm excited to talk to the gang. I mean, awesome. We had an incredible time rewatching this episode. We just kind of rehashed it for ourselves here.

This is the first episode that you directed. The second. Second, the first was six Thanksgiving, which was last season, season three, right? Oh, my God, the turkey was, I can still smell that turkey. Oh, gosh, me too. I don't know anybody was there. Remember, it was singed on the outside and raw on the inside? Yeah, that was my character's mishap.

So I was there for the full, it smelled like napalm death. It was like a cadaver. Everybody was about to throw up. I mean, it was amazing. Yeah. Yeah, it was a truly a disaster. Well, thank God you didn't hold that against us, and you came back to direct this episode. Good gracious.

We were discussing your storied career as a director, but I didn't know that you got your start in production design. Yes, I was an architect first, and then I became a production designer, and then I became a director. How did you go from architecture into production design? So I grew up in South Texas and, you know, I went to architecture school, University of Texas in Austin. I loved architecture. I started doing everything. I was like too creative for architecture. They told me, you got to change fields, man. You're never going to make it. I'm like, what? I just spent five years working my ass off. And they said, you better think of something else. So at that time, I'm like, oh, no, because I used to dress up like my buildings.

and doing all this crazy stuff. So then they said, and then I thought that the film business would encourage creativity. But I didn't know about sequels. And it doesn't really encourage creativity. But I loved it. I went to UCLA Film School.

I started designing sets for movies. I just thought it was the most magical thing ever. And then I started making my own movies. So film school was specifically for production design? No, I did not even know. I just thought, I didn't even know what a production designer was.

It was very random. I went as an animator. I decided I want to be an animator. And so I went and made animated films, little animated films, and then I heard that I could actually get paid if I was a production designer. Not much at the time.

500 a week on my first job. So I started working as a production designer on the first one was a skateboard movie, Thrash and with Josh Brolin. Yes, nice. Yes, I remember that movie. Very crazy. What is your connection to skateboarding then? Because if that was your first, you know, production designer gig and then Lords of Dogtown,

like I'm just curious is if there's some sort of connection there for you. The cool thing for me, like when I started working on thrash and I started giving all the crazy skaters or rides, you know, to sit or whatever. And I saw that they just did everything so creatively. If we stopped at a gas station, they would be skating at the gas tank. They would be doing acid drops off the roof. I'm like, I love this vibe. These people are just wild.

Yeah, they look at the world a different way. Yeah. There's no limit to their creativity, and I just loved it, you know. Well, how did you make then the segue from production designer to director? Because that feels like a bit of a leap. Right. Yeah, it was elite. I mean, so I kept making, worked on, you know, wonderful movies with great directors from Richard Link later to movies with him and Costa Gavras and David O. Russell, Cameron Crow. So at least Cholodinko. So I would watch what everybody did. How did they do that? How did they, you know, talk to the actors? Then I started taking, for five years, I took acting classes. Every kind of acting class. comedy improv, you know, blah, blah, blah, scene study.

Because I knew the design element, the visuals, but I didn't know what it meant to do what you guys do. And I tortured myself. You know, I would get up on stage. I did, you know, showcase. I was just mortified, but I wanted to feel what it felt like, you know, to have to act. You wanted to have empathy for the process,

so you put yourself through it. That's kind of amazing. It is amazing. Calvin Harrod, you sound like you don't always drink beer, but if you do, you probably drink dos eckis. Like, this is kind of amazing. Yeah. Hey, you know, I am from South Texas, so I should drink that. The most interesting woman in the world.

You understand what I'm saying. Totally. Like, your creativity could not be contained. You just, you're like, I want to do all the things and try all the things. And so impressive. Well, I was going to segue to the episode because I was really excited when they needed a drawing for Jack's vision of his house. Is that you? Is that you?

I did the drawing for it. I forgot you did that. Oh, my gosh. That's so cool. So that's my drawing. And I've never been proud or like, that's my drawing. Yeah, your architecture, like, know-how just came right back into the fold. love that. That's massive. It was so cool. Yeah, it was so fun. And I was having this architectural dilemma,

you know, he's very foxy and warm and, you know, all that. And this is a future house and the one we had already been selected was quite modern. So I was just stressing out how do I make the right design for the house that fits the story and the house? And like the interiors that they've already shot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's, well, mission accomplished. It's so rapid. Yeah, it was incredible. Such a beautiful house. How did you originally come to the show, to This Is Us? Like they said, your first episode was six Thanksgivings.

What was the process? And how do you find directing television? Like you were saying, maybe the film industry doesn't promote creativity as much. And episodic TV directing is a very specific type of directing. So how does that jive with your style? Okay, yeah, lots of questions. So the first one was, since I've been a vegetarian since I was 17, maybe they chose me because I had to deal with seven turkeys.

Oh, that's right. I forgot that bit of info. No, I don't know. I don't know how I got to. I just got a random call. I was like, hell, yes, I would love to do it. You know, I was so excited. I wanted to meet all of you guys.

I love the cast and, you know, the show. And, you know, I'm working with a lot of Italians. And by the way, they just randomly, a couple of them told me when I said, I had to go to this podcast. They said, we love that show. It's one of our favorite shows. That's so nice. And this very serious, hardcore, like, you know, film festival guy goes, I don't know why.

They always make me cry, and I try not to cry. It's angering. It's like, you shouldn't do me like that. That's amazing. So then, so wait, but the question then what Chris was saying, like, tell us. creatively, what's the difference for you coming in as a hired gun, working in a television versus being on a film set, like pros, commas, et cetera? Oh, yeah.

Okay. So film set, like, it's basically like that. In architecture school, I would look at an empty piece of land and then have to, you know, structural visualization, create everything when there was nothing there. And so that's what a feature film is to me. It's just words on a page. Now I've got to find the cast, the characters, all the locations, the music, everything from scratch. So I'm used to like, I'd say like really difficult uphill challenges.

So coming to This Is Us, there were already amazing actors and beautiful set. So I was like, wow, am I working hard enough? Am I working as many hours a day as I should be? I felt like I wasn't doing enough, actually, because I'm used to just like 24 stuff, I got to doing everything, yeah. But that was a gift. I mean, a pleasure. The writing is so, you know, kick-ass. All of you guys are legendary. So, you know, I just loved it. I'm like, okay. Was this as us your first foray into television or had you done any pilots or other shows before? Oh, yeah. No, I had done like hell on wheels. with um that was crazy like literally my first day of television i'm flying up to Canada

and on the plane they sent me the script and the and i heard you got six days to shoot the first scene was 150 mad cowboys on a train platform with a moving train and a riot and fire night and it's like two hours i'm like Godspeed. Good luck and Godspeed. The next page, a scalping. The next page, Common and another guy have a huge mud fight. Then there's sexing. I'm just like, holy, how do you do this in this short time? But that was exhilarating to me. I loved it.

You're like, so bring on the turkeys on this. If I can do anything now. I can do six turkeys. Yeah, give me six turkeys. Wait, this is my question to you, Kazman. Like, you still have this sort of joie, this like vim and vigor and appetite to create. Like, it's palpable. You see it through the screen.

How do you maintain it? Like, because you've been in the business for a long time, and the business has changed a considerable amount. And I'm sure it's probably impacted everybody, including yourself in different ways that, you know, I couldn't necessarily come up with. But, like, you still maintain this energy through it all. Can you talk to us a little bit about what's your secret? I think, you know, I love telling stories. I love working with actors, and I love the magic that comes, like, for me, in a rehearsal where something crazy pops out or weird or unique or strange or that I never thought of, you know.

Like on the skateboard movie, Lords of Dogtown, I mean, Heath Ledger was one of our actors. I decided to do all the rehearsals at my house. because I live in Dogtown in Venice. And so it was, and I told all the actors, you never wash your hair because you're a surfer and the ocean washes your hair. And they just went full immersive. And the things that came out of these kind of immersive experiences

were just so creative. So to me, any new challenge, you know, I love every challenge, you know, I guess, yeah. I mean, I was on a fast, a speedboat today for two hours. It was awesome. I'm like, swinging. I have one quick question specifically about this episode, because we just sort of broke it down, and it's great. There was so much, we're kind of at this point in the show that, like,

a lot of it is sort of fuzzy to us. Like, we don't remember. We remember the first few seasons, maybe the last season. But, like, this middle ground is something. So we're watching, and, like, there's so much revealed to us. us that we're like, oh, we didn't remember that. We very much felt that way with like the tape at the end from the time capsule with Jack and how that sort of hit. Do you remember if, because Sterling can't quite remember, do you know if Milo had already recorded that? And was it a surprise? Did

they play that in the actual take in the scene? Or was it like one of our AD's reading off camera? Do you happen to remember? Oh, no. I think we had the real, we had the real tech. Yeah. Yeah. Because it very much feels like that when you're watching, like, their reactions or what make us cry watching. Like, whoof, yeah, they're hearing this for the first time. Yes. And it was not an AD or even an AI voice reading.

Yeah, it was Milo, for sure. It was the real deal. One thing I do remember, remember that baby that we had. We had a fake baby for you. Yes. I was so scared when I saw that baby trying to like spit out the thing but in the silicone baby

but in close up it did work it played yeah very much so you had no idea you edited around it beautifully he danced around it and switching back and forth between me flipping over the real baby and flipping over the fake baby didn't catch it at all like I thought I thought it was the real baby the whole time

yeah yeah wait did you think that we tried we actually choked a real baby. Well, I don't think you, I knew, I knew enough because I'm in the business. But as an audience member, I was looking at the baby's face. Yeah. And I looked, I was like, is he changing color? I was like, what did they do to get this baby to do this? And so he said there was a little bit of post magic. A little bit, just a little bit. But it was very subtle. Yeah. To where I thought, like, something's going on with this baby. Like, how are they doing this? Did the baby chew something in his mouth or something that made it? I called the baby some

names got him to cry and then we and then we filmed that a little emotional abuse yeah when all else spells emotional abuse will always play that's right that's right it was quite creepy though that like that fake baby looked too real yes yeah we all had a lot of work with those silicone babies especially especially after yeah yeah during COVID is there anything else like from this like because we were saying we probably finished this just before COVID right? Yeah, it was. It was before. Right before COVID and everything else

sort of came into being. Is there anything else that you? Because this was your last, you just did the two episodes, third and fourth. Anything you remember from your time with the show that you think is noteworthy that you'd want to share. I liked on that show that we had. I love that cabin was very cool up into the finger.

And then I love all the fake snow. It was so fun to just go there. Like all the fake snow, the snow blowover and everything. But, I mean, I think. you know, it's kind of cool like what my Italian friends said that somehow, even if you think you're too cool for school and you're tough and it's not going to affect you, it still affects you know, when you're, you know, directing the show or editing or watching, you still feel for all of you. So, I mean, yeah, that's, I guess I could say that's what I remember. Oh, also I

I remember Sterling, I mean, your outrageous hot body when you were, you know, running up with your shirt off. Yeah. Yeah. We all remember that. Wait, would I have my shirt off in this episode? Oh, no, no, no, no. In my episode, I remember, I thought, I wonder if he would dare if he would want to take his shirt off. Should I even ask? Well, that thing was whipped off faster than I can get the words out of my mouth. Yeah, you didn't even have to ask. my shirt. It's off. Yeah. Yeah. He just shows up that way. You have to ask him to put his shirt on. Fair enough, though. Not now. I haven't worked out in a minute. I have one last question because you get a chance to shoot the last episode with Kate's boyfriend in the past, Mark. And we've been talking a lot about him and his performance, which we thought was extraordinary

and also just like deeply upsetting this relationship that she had with this dude. Anything Any thoughts from like when the brothers and younger Rebecca come in and ultimately get this dude out of the house? Like what anything that just that you remember from that at all? Yeah, he was so creepy, wasn't he? I mean, the character, as really, as yes, you know, you're like every little move was icky. And he's such a good actor, though. I mean, you saw what he did recently in a weapon. And also, oh, yeah, and then the one with Clooney, who was it, Matt Damon or whatever.

You know, he's been in, he's had some great, oh, God. Austin Abrams. Yeah, he's amazing. He's so good. He's so talented, but he knew how to be creepy. Yeah. He's the darkest, he's the darkest character on This Is Us. I think there's nobody in the show that's darker than that. It's funny. If you're not, if you're not watching this interview, but only listening to it, like the way she says creepy and like the tenseness that comes to her body is the same thing that we've all had anytime we talk about the character.

Like your body clenches up. Like, yeah, but I saw, he's not really like that because I saw him in Italy at a film festival a year ago and he's really an awesome dude. Yeah, he's lovely. He's lovely. He's a great actor. Don't, don't give him hate on the street. That's right.

He was just doing his job. Doing his job. It was an honor to be directed by you, Catherine, and an honor to have you here with us today. Please get back to Athens and all of your Italian friends. Exactly. We should leave you so you could go enjoy an Athens night out. Thank you so much, Catherine. Hey, this was a lot of fun. I'm really honored that you guys had me on the show. It was super cool. It was an honor for us. So nice to see you, Catherine. Thanks for joining us. Enjoy the rest of your evening. Bye, Catherine. Thank you so much. Have a great night.

You too. Bye, bye. Dude, what a joy it was. to get a chance to talk to Catherine. The woman is like history, like going from architecture to production design, to direct it, went to school for animation. Yeah. Like it's, it's, yeah, what a story's career. So many different paths to get to somewhere. But like, what lives inside her is that light, this desire to create, this desire to express.

Yeah. Like, I hope that we all get a chance to hold on to that the same way that this woman has held on to hers. Yeah. Yeah. It was awesome to be directed by. I loved getting to chat with her. Yeah.

you, friends. The pleasure is mutual, man. This concludes another wonderful episode of that was us. Chris, what should people do if they want to, like, support the show or tell people about the show? If they want to support the show, they could reach out to us at That Was Us pod at gmail.com. Send us a note. Yeah.

What would you like us to talk about? Sure. What do you want to talk about? Support our sponsors. Support our sponsors. Please and thank you. You can also give us a call on our. speak pipe on our speak pipe that's it is it just talk directly into our speak pipe do we just

what it's called speakpipe yeah i still want to say piece pipe piece speakpipe dot com slash that was us okay you got it mandy more speakpipe dot com slash that was us we got a live show coming up yes we do january 17th so get tickets to our show come see us yeah at the wiltern theater january 17th very excited Everybody's going to sing. That's right, Sterling. Everybody is going to sing. Everybody's going to sing. I'm going to sing.

Hey! You heard it here first. That's the first time he said he's going to do it, everybody. I'm going to get it all figured out. When in Rome. Yes. Yeah. That's it.

We'll see you next time. That was us. That Was Us is filmed at Rabbit Grin Studios and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da-da-da-da-da-dum. That was us.