The a16z Show - The Hustler's Guide to Getting Paid

Episode Date: September 6, 2019

with @bhorowitz @shakasenghor ram @earnin & vaughn ferguson Hustlin’ Tech is a new show (part of the a16z Podcast) that introduces the technology platforms — and mindsets — for everybody and anybody who has the desire, the talent, and the hustle to do great things. Read more about it here. Episode #2, “The Hustler’s Guide to Getting Paid” (early, but actually, on time) features Ram Palianappan, CEO and founder of Earnin, which allows workers to access their pay instantly with no fees or interest; Vaughn Ferguson, who uses Earnin to avoid overdraft fees or payday loans -- both interviewed by Ben Horowitz and Shaka Senghor. "Just knowing that more people are really using these things that are out there, to their advantage and not their detriment." music: Chris Lyons Stay Updated:Find a16z on YouTube: YouTubeFind a16z on XFind a16z on LinkedInListen to the a16z Show on SpotifyListen to the a16z Show on Apple PodcastsFollow our host: https://twitter.com/eriktorenberg Please note that the content here is for informational purposes only; should NOT be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security; and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a16z fund. a16z and its affiliates may maintain investments in the companies discussed. For more details please see a16z.com/disclosures. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome. This is the hustler's guide to tech where you don't need a degree from Harvard or Stanford or a STEM education or none of that. All you need is drive, ambition, and the will to get it done. In other words, you need to be a hustler. No doubt. And we're here today with my co-ho, Shaka. What's happening in Shaka? Happy to be here, man. Excited. Shaka came straight out the penitentiary, sold books off the street. Yeah, out the trunk of the car. Oh, the trunk of the car by himself that he published himself.

And now is the New York Times bestselling author. And we're here talking to Rom, the CEO of Earnan, where you can get paid as soon as you work. And then we're here with Vaughn, a hustler, who's taking advantage of that and getting his. So let's get into it. Let's get into it, man. So a dope name.

I love the name, Ernin. The first thing that came to my mind was, Kerry Dee, Money Earned Mount Vernon. I was like, that's how it's the name right there, earning, though, you know. Money earning. Yeah, money earning, right? But that's like a brilliant concept. Well, why don't you tell us, like, what earning is and what it does?

Yeah, so there's this problem that people now call the $400 problem, which is 40% of the country can't find $400. And to me, it's crazy that that happens because it's locked up in this pay cycle where we pay people every two weeks. And so we're basically holding back their pay, and then they don't have money, so they go to really bad options. And I came across this when one of my employees at my previous company, she was going into getting overdraft fees.

I asked her why she was getting overdraft fees because I thought I was paying everyone well. The problem she had was that she needed money the next day, couldn't wait until Friday. And so she'd already worked for a few days, and we owed her money for the work she'd already done, but I couldn't get the payroll system to pay her. So I did a manager and got her the money

and did this for a few years. And when I left the company, the people was doing this for a war, I know if I could still do it for them. And when I was able to do this, if life was so much simpler, they were paying all their bills on time, no more late fees on bills, no more overdraft fees, no more payday loans. When I think about it, it seemed like there's just like a lot of savings there,

like people who don't get those fees and don't have to worry about trying to figure out how to borrow money for other people with ridiculous interest rates, especially like if you're from the hood where you got all these get money now, but they have like these crazy interest rates. And like in terms of money, like how much is the savings are we looking at like annually? So with just overdraft fees alone, as a country we spend. more on overdraft than we do on fresh vegetables. Crazy, yo.

Pay money for your money. Pay money for your money. That's the financial system. So it's almost like you're working to make money to pay yourself to work. Like, it's crazy. It's like a ridiculous cycle. It's nice. So Vaughn was good, bro?

What's going on? So what does the application look like on the ground? Like, how do you get out there and make it happen and shake things up and, you know, really take it to that next level? Well, for me, it happened like this. I was scrolling through social media, and then this app popped up and it just said,

get your money today. And I mean like maybe before I finished reading a sentence, click and I had it, it's downloaded. And I checked it out. And then by the time, all the information process

and it took about maybe like three to five business days and it started working on my phone. And I realized what it was. I was like, okay, so it's tracking when I work. It's watching how much, how much I make as I make it.

And then it's allowing me the day of working to get that money the same day. And it's a different feeling, you know. I told my friend about it. I was like, yo, you got trice out. And he was like, what is it? I was like, get your money before Friday. And then he said, he said, keep it away from me.

And I was like, what do you mean? I was like, I've been using it. It's cool. And then his words were, I always remember this. He said, man, you're not trepidation. just at all, are you? And I was like, I was like, oh, is it me? Or is it him?

You know? And him is the way a lot of people feel about this type of thing. Everybody's looking for the catch. What's the thing? What's the thing? What is it? So, Brian, like, when you took a risk, you're just like, I'm going to hit this and I'm going to keep it moving. And one of the things that Ben and I talk about a lot is like how to we remove the mental

barriers that allows people to empower themselves and access technology in a way. That really makes them, you know, be able to connect with other people, but also earn, you know, through their own ability to get out and make things happen. So to just see the community that's developing the bond. That's something we talk about a lot about, how do you shift culture, you know? Yeah, that thing that you did, it might seem like a small thing, but to have the ability to go get something and then start to change your position in life where you can go do the next thing, like that's, you know, and then anybody who knows you benefits from that. Because, you know, you're the breakthrough. Rom, what do you charge? So we don't charge anything.

There's no fees to use of service. The other area that we're in right now is where people should be able to get health care even if they don't have much money. And I don't think we should hold these back just because someone doesn't have enough money to pay for it. And so what we said is people can pay us whatever they think is fair.

And so when people are not able to pay, then they don't pay. When they are able to pay, they can pay something. And sometimes people come back and they actually help many people out. So you have a really strong paid four, word culture where people actually come into the app to help each other out. So in addition to allowing people to access their own capital, it's also building a sense of community, which most people don't think about organically when it comes to tech. It's like, how do you build

community that actually opens it up? Yeah, as far as the community aspect of it, when you actually start using the app, you know, you have the ability to tip whatever amount you decide to. And it caps the amount you can tip. So for example, today was Wednesday. And I cashed. out a hundred bucks for work from work that day. The app comes up and then it gives you the option and said, would you like to tip yes or no? And then another sort of like an icon or a little animation comes up. And it shows you because of your tip that you were able to pay it forward for somebody else. So it's incentivized in a more organic way, like kind of like, okay, you see how you helping people. Exactly. You know that thing where you go through a toll and maybe you have a little bit

extra that day and so you pay for the two people behind you or you're getting some donuts in the morning and you're like, all right, five bucks for the guy behind me. It's sort of like that. Because when you tip as well, it tells you based on the amount you tip how many people you're assisting. So if you roll it to $3, the chain will go up to one. If you roll it to five, maybe it goes up to two people. If you hit it like in a $9 tip, it goes up to three. It's up to you. You can do whatever you want. And sometimes I'm like, yeah, I'm good right now. Boom. It's a $9 tip and you have three other people. I think about like how most people want to show up in the world. I think, you know, we're organically helpful people. And when you can actually see that you really help

somebody, that's pretty cool. Yeah. So one of the other pieces is if someone helps you out, you can say thank you to them. And we've had over 10 million thank you messages between users. One of the other things that's like surprising to me is like when I speak with people are like more from the traditional financial services, they don't get why people will help other people out. Because they're not trying to help. You got to want to help people to understand what that looks like. They're on the other end. Right, on the other end of this thing.

So people are helpful and paying it for, but why do you think that people want to help each other? Like, what is it about the space of freedom that makes people want to really help each other? So I think people actually help each other out in the real world. Like, offline, that's what you do, is if you're short of money, you ask your friends or your cousin for money. Like, it's not the way, like, you're used to banks working. Like, banks don't ask customers to help each other out.

But in the real world, people do help each other out. Yeah. And we're basically bringing that into this technology platform and giving it a lot of scale. Are people pretty consistent with these transaction of tipping or like what does that look like? Is it like every third transaction or? Everyone chooses what works for them. Yeah. So it's different for different people.

The same person could be different at different times. You'll be like, how do you have you thought through it? Well, the way I do it is like this. Depending on how much I'm going to cash out, I know what my ultimate goal is. So maybe I know this week I'll cash out twice. So that means I know that on Tuesday I may tip $5. And on Wednesday, I might not tip anything because I know that for the week, it's $5. You don't have to tip every time.

It just depends on what you know you're going to do and what you know that you can afford, honestly. As with anything, you have to budget your money. Okay? Because just like as if you in the old system, you would have to have saved money from an old paycheck to pay for an upcoming bill. In this instance, you're using funds that you would normally expect on Friday. You're getting it earlier. So you just budget yourself and know that you used that money already. Okay.

So it's just budgeting. But it's also allowing you that access to the money in advance so that you can avoid potential overdraft fees or something comes up or things like that. So most important is you have to budget your money. Okay. So I just had a question that just popped up. It's like, so you're married. Yes.

and, you know, their shared household responsibilities financially. Right. So how does that work within that context? It's like, you know, you hit your wife up, like, you all got to take this, all, to take care of that. Completely did it on my own at first. Okay. Because I knew what the reaction was going to be. Right.

Yeah. So I just did it. Let me see if this works. And I didn't even think it was going to cause any problems. But I knew what's saying, hey, there's this thing. Can I check it out? I knew what was going to happen. Because that's what people were.

say because they can't believe it. Yeah. So I just went forward on my own. And then after that, it's done nothing, it's done nothing but assists me. So it's worked out. It's, you know, it's the, the pay cycles just, there's gaps in them. And I don't think people should be ashamed of running out of your check before Friday gets there. I mean, it's a normal occurrence. It happens often. It's, it, there's a phrase, I got to wait until Friday. Right. People say that. Yeah.

There's a reason you got to wait till Friday is because you won't have the money to afford it today, you know, and sometimes you miss out on things. And sometimes you incur fees. You end up paying more money because you didn't, you had to wait on the money you already earned

that you could have now. So it's done nothing but assist me, assist us in our household. And just in terms of like access, is it kind of like a limit or like how does that work? So you get it seven days a week, 24 hours. day as soon as you hit cash out the money's in your account the same second.

So you could be like at McDonald's and you need six bucks. You just take out six bucks and you put your debit card in. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's instant. Have you ran into any, you know, consumers who are just like, you know what, I'm too irresponsible. I need to just unplug because I'm just going to take out all the money and go to the casino or do whatever reckless.

Has that user experience have occurred or? So the user experiences that we hear are mostly on people. using the app to pay bills to buy groceries, to buy food, to buy gas. There's that struggle to make it to Friday. And it's not because you want it to go gambol. It's because you needed to get to work or you needed to buy food. And that's what people are using this for. And can they pay for these things like within the app itself or do it just go to their debit card and they swipe?

Yeah, it goes into the bank account and they use a debit card to buy it. So, Rom, you were talking earlier about health care. What is your vision for the community? So with healthcare, the core problem is that when you get medical bills, they're almost always a surprise. They're quite large. And usually when you get them, your income goes down as well. I mean, like half the personal bankruptcies in the country are because of medical bills. Half.

Wow. And even if you have insurance, like your deductibles, $5,000 or $10,000. Most people don't have that sitting in their bank account. And so even with insurance, health care is not affordable. And so what we've done is it's really simple from the user's point of view. they basically take pictures of their bills through the app and give it to us. And then usually within two days, we're able to get them a lower amount on their bill, a payment plan. And then if there is any financial aid, we'll try to mask them up with financial aid as well.

And so with over 90% of the bills that we've got, we've been able to get people in some kind of savings. We're looking for places where there's some kind of unfairness or inequality and seeing if we can bring a technology solution to make that place be more balanced. So this is becoming a platform of community-supported products. You know, that's so powerful. I was thinking earlier, you know, because I'm always thinking about it, you know, like, what do you teach young people about, like, money that makes them go one way or the other? And like, my favorite quote on this is compound interest is eighth winner of the world. He who understands it earns it and he who doesn't pays it. And that's like an Albert Einstein quote. But, you know, that's the thing about money that I think so many people don't understand is that either you have money and your money, wakes up every day, goes to work, and makes you more money to the point where, like, when you get enough money, you don't even have to work. Your money just goes to work on your behalf. And then if you're borrowing money, if you're getting credit, if you don't have your check and you have to go

borrow that or put it on the credit card or whatever, then you're paying for that. You're paying for that other person to not have to go to work. And you don't even realize you're doing that. and you just fall into this pattern of these financial products that puts you on the bad end of that deal. And so the thing that, you know, that to me is really exciting is you're saying, no, I'm getting my money that I already made. Right. And now I've got money. And now you have the choice. You can spend it.

You can invest it. You can do what you need. But that's your money. Yeah, no, I think that's really dope because you hit on a pivotal point, like the culture. And that's something we talk about a lot when it just comes to, like, how do we shift culture? And I kind of want to pivot a little bit around just the idea of like what the show is about. Like how do you really, you know, break through some of these barriers that's in people's way. And especially in a tech space, right?

Tech can be very intimidating. You know, I walked out of prison nine years ago and I was gone for two decades. So I didn't know any of this tech stuff, right? But there was a curiosity there. I was like, I really want to learn how the modern world works. And just from a hustler standpoint, I always thought that, you know, guys that come from the street or come from the communities where street hustling is the norm don't always recognize that those are transferable skills.

And as we're trying to solve problems and trying to empower people, how do we message that in a way where people feel, you know, to your point where it's not like this skepticism when you introduce some tech, but where it's this open curiosity and, you know, allow people to create space where they can come in and like get out and go make it happen? Where do you guys see that connection in terms of like how do we introduce the culture of technology and hustle technology to the masses? If I could come up with an idea, it would just be more visibility, more people knowing that there's real people using it and that there isn't such a reason to be skeptical. I mean, I guess just generally people are scared of this type of thing because I don't know, maybe they've heard horror stories before. But, I mean, that's the only thing I could think of,

just knowing that more people are really using these things that are out there to their advantage and not their detriment. You know, these are assistance devices and not everything that you see on your phone is there to scam you or take your money. These are real tools that you have now to your advantage. Yeah, I think there's also like some amount of like skepticism

or anything that's new, whether it's like with Lyft and getting into a car with a stranger or Airbnb being staying in someone else's house. Yeah. And long ago with Amazon, like putting your card number into the internet. But like technology can make things so different that you're not sure if it's all right because it's so different.

Like people look at our product and they say, well, this is too good to be true. And I'm like, they're used to overdraft fees. And I'm like, that's too bad to be part of your future. Like, this is the way it should have been always. It's like you should have always had access to your pay. What's always funny to me is that it's like people on social media talking shit about tech.

I'm like, but you're actually using tech to talk shit, right? And it's like, if you can make that connection for people to see, like, we're already using tech right? no matter you're not going to, that's just a reality, right? So why not using the way that actually empowers you and helps you solve problems and make life a lot more simple? And so that's kind of like always the thing I'm thinking about is how do we continue to push the envelope and shift culture and get people to see like these things aren't as intimidated as they make them ought to be and that you can dive in and figure out a way to, you know, either create the next

big thing that make problems solving easier or just, you know, utilize it to make your life a little bit more simple. Yeah, kind of picking up on what you said, Chaka, like one of the things that is interesting and really the opportunity, I think, is you have this old system. And we all know all the things that are wrong and all the things that are unfair about the old system, the old financial system, the old health care system, the old like work hours and structure. And one thing is fight the system. But the other thing is there's a new system. And how do we get the guys on the come up onto the new system and just not have to protest the old system because, like, we've been protesting that system for a long time and, like, it doesn't change

at all. When I was getting out, I was just like, okay, I got to just figure this thing out, right? So I know what I control. I can only deal with the things that I can control, right? That means I got to get my ass out there and hustle and push the envelope. So I literally would sell books to anybody. I didn't care who you was. And I would do it.

I mean, Jehovah Witness come knock at the door and want to sell a watchtower. or give away a watchtower, I want to sell this book, let's swap out. I mean, for me, it was really just that idea that, you know, I mean, I think enterprise has always been, you know, a part of the culture, you know, like there's that hustler ethic there, that ethos, right? That culture of figuring it out, because that's what that hip-hop culture emerged out of making something out of nothing. And that's what I look at, that's how I look at technology, right?

I always ask kids this, I say, okay, you know, if you're on social media, I'm like, did it cost you to get on? And they're like, no. I'm like, okay, are they selling you in this? thing personally. They're like, no. I'm like, so how are they making money? And they're like, I don't know. I'm like, it's an idea. And the idea is to really take things and figure out how to create value in them. And if you create the thing, then you create the value and you can figure out how to get that out. And I think that culturally, what we really would love is just for people to

awaken to the idea that you can get out and make things happen if you just have that go-getter mentality and really dig into it. Yeah. I guess what got me over the hurdle of of it was it's in the play store. And I think what my friend meant when he said, boy, you're not trepidious at all, was he was sort of stating this, which is I was telling him, you can get your money now.

You don't have to wait till Friday. And people don't think that should happen. That's, you can't do that. You can't get your money before Friday. Even though you worked today. That's not allowed. Yeah. Because you, Vaughn, are not capable of handling your money before Friday.

Your employer can hold it for you because they know what's best. You can't take that now because you're going to blow it. So you can't keep your money now. You've got to wait until Friday because they know better. So where is he at now? Does he still think of things the same way? He ain't come around yet. So here's a question you should pose to him.

You should ask him if he went to the casino and he won at the slots, when would he want them to pay him? Exactly. Right. You just see how he responds. Right. Because that's the reality, right? If you go to casino and you like win, you want that cash right then. Like you don't want to wait because you just, you earn that, right?

Exactly. And so why would it be any different if you're working and you're actually put the hours in to add value to another company while when you add that value to yourself? So I think you can turn them around. Yeah. You also look at what the businesses do. You go into a shop. You pay them at once. You don't see I'll pay you in two weeks because you may be irresponsible if I give you the money now.

The businesses take their money as soon as they get. give you something. Immediately. Yeah. But as an individual, you're not supposed to have it. And it's not like all your bills show up on payday. Yeah. I mean, your bills show up at different times.

You should have your money available when your bill show up. You're expected to hold over your money. You're not expected to have your money early and then pay for what comes up. You're expected to hold it from the week before. So it's sort of backwards. And even like, I mean, why should the bank or why should like the company have your money and be earning on it when you should could be earning. Why are they money earning on your money that you work for that they owe you?

Like, that doesn't make any sense. Until about two centuries ago, this whole concept of pay cycles was not there. Employees were paid every day. And it was during the industrial revolution that we started paying people in batch like this. As an employee, you'd rather get your money before you work. The company would rather pay you much after you work. And then it's kind of interesting that now we have the situation where we've all accepted that companies can pay you after you.

work. It just shows you how the balance of power has shifted so much away from the individual. Like now we have, like, now there's an opportunity for technology to actually make that be more level and balanced. It really gets down to, like, who's running your life. One of the reasons we wanted this on the podcast is this is the one where you, like, okay, let me take control of my destiny. And then, you know, as we go forward, what are the opportunities that I have now? I'm running my money. It's like really it's about taking control of destiny. Very common use cases to buy gas. They're like, lots of people were not able to get to work the day before payday. And sometimes that means they would lose their job if they missed too many days of work.

Now they use the app. They take money, buy gas. They have better attendance. Better attendance means higher paychecks, actually. So we see paychecks go up. Yeah. People get to, like, see the doctor when they have a toothache instead of, like, waiting for payday and putting up with a toothache for four days.

People can celebrate their children's birthdays on the birthday instead of pushing back celebrations to payday. I was just thinking about from a generational standpoint, Raham in terms of like the people who are most likely to be impacted are people that's, you know, maybe 40, 50s, 60s getting into that space of close to retirement or whatever the case may be. And how have they been able to adapt to technology? Because sometimes older generation can tend to be a little resistant. But how, what are you guys doing to kind of penetrate that culture and make it more accessible? So ours, a lot of it spreads from like people talking about it to their friends. and it feels like the adoption is actually much more in the people who are more like 18 to 35 or 40.

They're probably the ones who are more comfortable using their phone. And so I think we actually, if you were to look at the people who use the app, it does skew a little bit more younger. Maybe the people who are used the system just like the overdraft fees and all the other fees. We're like afraid to try something new. Yesterday was the first time I ordered and took an Uber. I've been in Uber's, but I've never had. the app on my phone. My wife did it.

Yesterday was the first time I did it. There was a little something in my stomach. Even though I've been in Uber's and done it, like, but she's always handled it. You know, we go to New York. She's like, I'm like, you got to Uber and she do it. But I was like, okay, so I got to do this. I got to be a big boy. I got to do it.

And I did it. I was like, am I going to know how to do this? And then I was like, everybody's doing this. Get with it, you know? And I just did it. And I think people just got to jump in. I mean, or else you're going to be left out. Because, like, saying that sounds crazy.

Yeah, you know, what was always interested in me because I personally used Lyft, but when I was thinking about like people's resistance even to Lyft, right, I'm like, how different is that than just calling the taxi cab? A stranger still road enough you're hopping in the car

and you got to decide whether you want to get in the car and you feel safe. So it's just always interesting about how our brains work when it comes to old models versus new models. Absolutely. This is going to kind of explode the myths around the old models

and really help people see the advantage of adopting new models of technology and thinking of it from whether it's from an enterprising standpoint or the user standpoint. I think if we accomplish that, then our job is done. I also think, you know, I mean, the thing that I really want to do is take that message directly to the people coming up, trying to make the hustle, trying to get to the next phase of their life rather than, you know, having to run it through, you know, some third-party filter that's got like their own agenda about they like the old world and they don't want it to change and all that kind of thing. So I grew up in Detroit and, you know,

it's a factory town and, you know, when you go through the communities, you see all these kind of, you know, payday loan places, you know, and I hear the conversation. I know people who literally live check from check. I grew up with it in my family and, you know, I know it's always been a driver for me. Like I never wanted that pressure of living check to check. You know, it's not healthy. It's like physically it's not healthy. Mostly it's not healthy. And it's definitely not healthy spiritually. And so if you can speak to an audience like that, you know, this is a hardworking blue-collar town, people working in factories. They're doing these long hours. And they're often behind. They're often trying to play catch up because, you know, it's an emergency

happens. You know, they got to get something fixed. It's bad weather out there, right? The roof, goat caves in. And they're like, oh, man, I ain't going to be able to do this to a payday. You know, you can speak directly to those people who are just trying to figure it out. Like, what would you say to convince them that this is an option if they're, you know, willing and open to exploring it? Yeah. I think, like, we talk so much about this being like the land of equal opportunity. And like, we kind of put the responsibility on the individual to pull themselves up.

But the way the system is set up, so often the system keeps pushing people down. Well, I'm telling people that there's no opportunity. You get, like, fed that there's no opportunity as opposed to being fed the opportunity. the opportunities. Yeah, and you're supposed to believe that the system works very well, even though what is really doing is holding you down. Yeah. Why does your employer need to actually hold back your paycheck?

How have employers responded to that? How have companies responded to that? How have they been like, yo, this is cool? Or are they like, yo, what are y'all doing with our interests right now, y'all? We've been able to make this work as a product that goes directly to consumers. But businesses have actually started, like, wanting this. And there's a couple of reasons why. One is their employees are actually less stressed now.

about money. They're not thinking about a whole bunch of other things. Attendance goes up because people can buy gas and come in. So their workers are actually like more productive. The other piece, too, is you're beginning to see this happen in the market. Like Uber's paying people more often, Lyft is paying people more often. You have to stay competitive. And so we have a lot of companies that now actually tell their employees about us so that their employees can have the benefits and there's like no work for the company to do. So it's actually really easy. So one of the things that that is really interesting to me because you're actually taking the financial risk and you're trusting Vaughn.

And so tell us a little bit about like, how do you know him? Why do you trust him? And why are you able to have a good business doing that? So what we're doing is giving him access to his pay. For a long time, the entire banking system, and it's still like that, the entire traditional system doesn't know whether Vaughn has worked today or not. And like they wait for two weeks for the paycheck to show up. And then they're like, okay, now Vaughn is good because that batch processed ran in the company.

What we're using is technology that didn't exist five years ago. We're using the smartphone and things that are in the smartphone to tell if Vaughn is actually working today or not. And so knowing that Vaughn has actually worked, we know he's going to get the paycheck. Right. And that he's already on the money. And if he's already owned the money, then he should have access to it. But the other, the traditional players don't know if Vaughn's work. They're not used to that kind of information.

That to me is one of the most powerful things because great businesses are built on. on great trust. Because you can trust your partners, you can do things that people could never do with a million contracts. And the fact that you guys don't have a contract, he didn't fill out a loan application. Yeah, it's like quite different

from the traditional system where we've built this new system where trust is like inherently a part of it. Whereas in the old system, it's like distrust is a part of it, which is why they make you sign these long terms and conditions and every possible outcome is thought through

and set up to be in a way that's advantages for the company. Yeah, that's a big thing. You get people who push this kind of generalized idea of like the man or the system or, you know, things that you can't trust. And without any exploration into those spaces, it doesn't really foster that type of relationship dynamic where you're like, oh, I trust that this is my best interest. Even though human behavior, you know, really leads us to think that instinctively we're more trustworthy than we give ourselves credit for. And I think part of it is like marketing the idea that, you know, technology isn't this boogeyman. It's really just curious people who have figured out ways to simplify the world and figured out ways to monetize their ideas and thoughts and in the way that we exchange information.

We're so excited having you guys. So this is dope, man. Yeah, I'm super excited. We really appreciate it. Appreciate you all. Thank you. Thank you for having me.