The Adam and Dr. Drew Show - #1771 Loveline & Safe Sex

Episode Date: September 22, 2023

Dr. Drew welcomes back friend and former Loveline co-host Mike Catherwood with some meaningful and personal conversations regarding addiction recovery, and how Mike can introduce these conversations with his children. They also discuss what it was like for the gay community in the 80’s and how Loveline was the first media platform to talk about safe sex. Dr. Drew and Mike have some strong thoughts concerning the recent Ashton Kutcher and Mila Kunis controversy, and why we should pause before jumping to knee-jerk reactions. Please Support Our Sponsor: Simiplisafe.com/ADAM2

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that's just me. Perez Hilton. Drinking all the tea that goes on in this world. And with the way social media is, I just can't get enough. I'm obsessed. It's like every day something new and scandalous comes out and I want it all. I'm the OG of entertainment gossip. And if you are like me and have an unrelenting thirst for all the drama that's flying around,

you should listen to my podcast, the Perez Hilton Podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts. Recorded live at Corolla One Studios with Adam Corolla and board-certified physician and addiction medicine specialist, Dr. Drew Pinsky. You're listening to The Adam and Dr. Drew Show. Get it on. Got to get it on. No choice but to get it on. Mandate.

Get it on. Adam away. Mike in the house. Dr. Drew here. Hey, man. Last time together. They got to help us reinstate Loveline so we can do more of this. It must happen.

It must happen. Drew and I are trying to do it. Everyone here in the Austin area is is pitching in they're trying they're like we got studio for you here mike and we'd love to host you we'd love to make sure and by the way we could do a million interactions we could interact through tiktok and instagram and phones and video there's a million ways different world different world exactly and we could not we and we wouldn't have a boss so all the shit that we'd really really really want to say that would probably be really, really helpful to you. We could all say that shit. things. That's the crazy thing about podcasting is that people don't appreciate with radio, there was so much infrastructure and regulation and, oh my God, there was, you know, teams of engineers and control, you know, transmitter towers and then sales forces and administrators

up the butt and, you know, people in the podcasting, it's, hey, it's just us. It's just us in the audience. Even like on a smaller level to, and I don't mean this in a denigrating way. I mean it just from reality. It's like most people don't have the experience of working in an advertiser-based world. Here's a perfect example. I've been very open about being in recovery and alcoholism and drug addiction you're absolutely destroying my life and i'm by the grace of god i'm here today and about a decade ago this guy at k-rock comes to me he's like i nailed an anheuser-busch bud light budweiser ad campaign for you uh and we'd love it if you can run it i was like hey man maybe beer mug could

do it because like he's beer mug but i'm on loveline every night talking about like how i don't drink and it's really hard and i alcohol killed me and like there's probably young kids that listen that struggle that maybe look up to me and i can't go pepper that with hey and here's psycho mike to tell you why bud weiser is the best you know yeah and he's like i don't get it no what do you mean this is this is a this is a hundred thousand dollar campaign i was like i give a kid someone there's plenty of jocks here and someone else he's like no they wanted you i was like i understand but i'm an alcoholic yeah i just don't think it's appropriate they're like what do you he was so bent out of shape i was like you know and like in a podcast

world you just don't worry about that i'm like yeah there's none of my business you know yeah wow i didn't know that happened you never told me about that that's interesting so uh how do you do you talk about your recovery with your daughter? She's how about like 10, 12, nine. And do you does it come up? Does it have you thought about it or is it? I I took as much as I like to bitch about my parents. And there's plenty to bitch about. One thing that they did do was they never talked about adult shit like I was a kid, even when I was really young.

We had this gay friend, a family friend. And his name was Tom. And he had a boyfriend at the time. His name was Jerry, which I thought was a funny shit. Tom and Jerry. Yeah. We're talking 1984, 1985. So, like, even having gay family friends, it was like – it was pretty out there.

And I remember he showed up to – I think it was – I remember it was hot as shit. So probably it was like 4th of July. It was like a family event. Before we finish, let me interrupt you. In 1984, I worried about every gay friend I had getting through the age up in there. I'll dovetail this story with exactly that. Okay. But he was holding hands with his boyfriend.

And my parents saw me see that. And I was like, what the fuck? Because I was five, four or five years old. And I remember it like it was yesterday. My dad came over. He's like, you know how mom and dad love each other? I go, yeah. He's like, well, that's how Tom and Jerry are.

And I go, okay. Can I watch Star Wars? Yeah, exactly. You know, it was just like. Yeah. It was just like not a thing because I was young and very straight with me. And I never to this day had any kind of weird feelings about the idea of sexuality in any direction because of that. So I took that information and I kind of helped lead me with how I deal with it with my daughter. And about two years ago, we were having a party at our house.

Everybody was drinking beers or wine and the whole thing and she said papa how come you don't have them and i go because i can't stop and she's like what do you mean i was like well alcohol you know how uh alcohol like papa drinks coffee and i can't say because i'm addicted to it i was like that's the way i was with alcohol and it's way more dangerous than caffeine and uh some people have problems with alcohol and drugs and they they can't stop it and pop your father's one of those so i i just don't drink it at all and she goes okay and like it was over with yeah whether or not i'll have that conversation i'll revisit that conversation when she's 16 and is going to start probably trying drinking on her

own you know i don't know we'll cross that bridge when we get there. It is. So generally what I tell parents is if you are a normie, just focus on your expectations for the child. Do not tell them what you did or did not do. Don't lie to them ever. But just you don't have to tell them what you did or did not do because doing so issues them a license to begin again right there.

But when you're in recovery, it's important to discuss what recovery is and the illness. So it really does become important for you to talk about what you had to do to stay sober, how it affected you. I think not shove it down her throat, but in sort of a casual manner, keep the information going. It is important. And I have found universally if the child gets the gene and if the gene gets expressed, the number one thing and how that goes is the parent's recovery. If the parent's in recovery solidly and talks about it, that child goes for a minute and then stops and then goes into recovery. Right. Well, getting back to the gay community in the 80s.

Yeah. So now I'm like in eighth grade and this guy comes back over to my parents' house. And I'm a little bit older and a little bit more aware of just kind of social. What's up? Just what's up. what's up social ideas yeah and also like current events we're sitting at the kitchen table and i was talking to him and we got brought up aids now by now man's in his 50s he's a grown grown man yeah he said, everyone I know is dead.

Yeah. And I'll never forget that. This is probably 1991. Yeah. He's like, everyone I know is dead. And it was like sometimes it was a week, sometimes it was six months. But it's just like I knew you, and then you were gone. I'm glad you were exposed to that because I'm getting chills when you say it because it was horrific.

People don't get how horrible it was they're so freaked out i really don't think you can try and you i i think maybe people probably have the best of intentions it's one of those things like 9-11 the other day trying to talk to my daughter about that yeah you can't wrap your head around it unless you were there like how fucking crazy it was did you show her videos did she watch videos of all that stuff and that oh yeah oh yeah my wife actually got way into like showing her actual video yeah my daughter was like i don't even understand how is like i think she still thought it was kind of like a movie oh yeah like that level of explosions and stuff i don't think

he could wrap her head but i'm sure it it's the same as like my friends that are veterans try to explain war. I don't get it. I don't get it because I haven't seen that. And I think if you're 20 right now, you can watch a documentary. What it was like in places like San Francisco and Miami and Los Angeles, New York City for the gay male community was fucking crazy. It was like The Walking Dead. It was like you're dead. It was like, and it was interesting. It was interesting.

One of the differences between how physicians acted in and around COVID was whether or not they were treating patients in the AIDS pandemic, because trust me, trust me, that was, listen, that had a 100% fatality rate, and it was an epidemic. Think about that.

And in terms of years of life lost, vastly worse than COVID. COVID killed people in their 70s, 80s, and 90s, lost a few years of life at about the same numbers as AIDS, with AIDS killing entire regions of young men with 50 years, 60, 70 years of life ahead of them. It was so horrific. And by the way, one of the documentaries on Studio 54 brought it home for me, where they were talking about the incredible artists and the lighting person and the musicians, and we lost them all. They're just gone.

And people – I don't know. People – because it was primarily at that point in the AIDS – in the gay community, there was a lot of not giving a fuck. And I think today that wouldn't happen. I think people would give a fuck today. Oh, yeah. It would be way different. But I think you're lying to yourself to say like we would. It's the same thing I said about I used to say about Hurricane Katrina, where, you know, I went to New Orleans like like six months ago.

And there's still massive chunks of New Orleans that are all wrecked. And I go, it strikes me a little odd that hurricane hits Manhattan. And in like. 48 hours, everything's all fixed and billions of dollars are being funneled to it. Yeah. And four black people get cracked with it. And it's like there's just decades of not shit not being fixed. And, you know, it's awful. But I think you're kidding yourself to say the same thing about the mid 80s.

It was mostly killing gay dudes and people were like, ew. I know. What are we going to get all upset about? It's why I got involved in radio because Anthony Fauci at the time was telling us young physicians to get out there and talk about this. When I came up on Loveline the first time in 1983, I'll never forget, I brought up – we didn't have HIV yet. We were calling it HTLV.

HTLV3. HTLV3. What about grids? I remember in the press – We had just stopped calling it grids and started calling it AIDS about a year before. And I was just deep in it, lots of patients. And I brought it up on the radio and people were like, huh? What?

Yeah. No one was talking to young people about it, which was a shock to me. So there we go. No one really talked about gay stuff, period. Well, you got to – yeah. I know. Listen, condoms are behind. That wasn't –

We were the first people to talk about safe sex on Loveline because the term hadn't been invented yet. We were like, use a condom. Use a condom. And he had to go – I was talking to a gay friend of ours. I don't know. He's a condom and he had to go i was talking to a gay friend of ours uh i don't know he's a public person i i honestly don't know if he is open out or not so i won't say his name but and he's older and he was saying how like the community now the young gay community it's so

hurtful to him because it's not a death sentence anymore. In fact, it's like a couple pills and you're fine. Right. So dudes are like so brazen about it. Oh, I know. Like so – Well, you got prep and pap and prep and all this stuff to prevent it. You know, like on Grindr, like guys will be like I'm positive and like they almost wear like a feather hat. And he's like it's so hurtful to me at my age because like I live through where like everyone dies.

Everyone dies. Yeah. And by the way, that was what gave me the faith that we would solve COVID in one way or another because I was there when we opened the AZT boxes. I was there when we came up with these antivirals. And I know how hard people are working and how the system responds

when there's something like that going on. It was a defining experience for me. It really was. And, again, so dark, so heartbreaking, and very few people got to witness it. Is your friend still around, Tom or Jerry or whoever that was? Oh, I don't know. God, he was in his 40s in 1980-something. Okay.

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They will deter intruders. Again, it's so easy to install, easy to sign up, and easy to take with you if you move. It is simply safe. All right, so I want to ask, I have a couple things I want to bring up. One is, what the hell is going on with Kratom? I don't get it. What is wrong with people on Kratom? How can a weak

opiate be okay for people who with addiction especially i i'm just i'm so frustrated with that and there and and of course because it's a weak opiate people can get away with it for a while but your disease will take take that on it will it will yeah i mean as far as drug addicts in recovery that to me it it's just like, no. They're the ones often doing it. They are, but I think the tide has turned. Oh, why? What's concerning part for me is people who live hard-charging lives,

athletes, construction workers, military cops, who are the ones who were 10 years ago all going immediately going to vikadin or perks yeah and now because you can get it at a gas station they're all taking it and they're like i don't care what you say it's a plant and i'm and it's health and i'm like no this can go back and i'm fine with it i work fine it helps me it helps me it helps me yeah and um again it's like i i hate i really guarded against being the guy who's a teetotaler and in recovery telling people how to live their lives if you're a grown man you want to do do whatever the fuck you want to do yeah but i just don't like when there's dishonesty out there

yeah about like it being harmless is it would i rather someone take some kratom you know have a have a slug of some kratom drink that they get at their liquor store compared to take Percocet? Fuck yes. Oh, yeah. Hell, yeah. But does that mean I'm on board with Kratom? No, because there is overdosing. There is profound addictive properties.

I mean profound. In a weird way, though. So I'm seeing now something I had not seen before, which is kratom abuse, not addiction. So I'm seeing non-addicts using kratom. But I've seen that with opiates. I've seen that with opiates for quite some time. Non-addicts using opiates? The only drug I've ever seen are opiate-based pain pills where clear normies get into addict territory.

Different thing. That's what I'm talking about. That is what you call opiate dependency, and that's my profession that causes that. It's almost always started with a back pain, whatever, and got going. Yes, and they look like addicts except you get them off the drug and they reconstitute immediately and they're not interested in doing it anymore. They have a glass of wine with dinner and they're normal people again.

Normal, normal. I'm talking about people that are non-dependent, non-addicts, using it almost like alcohol or what, cigars or something. Well, there's holistic health people in the fitness industry that recommend doing just that. I don't know what to do with that. I don't know if that's getting a hangover. Just take one of these, you know, Eastern wind shots and you live and you can have fun

and you'll feel buzzed and you'll wake up feeling refreshed. Yeah. I'm like, whoa, whoa, wait a second. You know, when you weigh out drugs of abuse, the way the cannabis is going right now, I'd almost rather they do that than cannabis, if that makes sense, because of the power of the cannabis. But it's like weighing dangerous things. I feel weird. I don't like it.

My feeling on hierarchy of controlled substances is the same thing on hierarchy of discrimination. When you have the woman and the black guy and the jewish guy arguing over who's more you know yeah it's like oh it's like what are we doing here like yeah i'm sure it's all bad like why i think this is a it's more we're making things worse than better yeah you know when they when the because i saw it in the opposite direction in recovery. It's like, oh, you have a problem with alcohol? I'm a heroin addict. You don't know addiction, man, because you're just a drinker or something. And I'm sitting there in the back of the room going like, both of you shut the fuck up.

There's no upside to this. There's a long history of that kind of stuff in recovery. You mentioned you're addicted to caffeine. I become more of a caffeine advocate, enthusiast, the more time goes on. If you don't have any anxiety problem, if you suffer from anything. Or cardiac arrhythmias. Or there's an underlying cardiac issue, then you are not included in this. or there's an underlying cardiac issue, then you are not included in this. But outside of that, if you're a healthy human, it's the best drug, bar none, not even open for debate.

As far as upside and clear lack of downsides, caffeine is the best drug. There's no – and all the claims of coffee being bad for you are all false. In fact, it's the most antioxidant chop fill uh antioxidant substance that most americans take and reduce parkinson's risk reduce dementia risk that's been shown in every form uh uh heart health is showing it's like it's it's really caffeine's best the end i was i was listening to uh mark i think it was on what Mark I think he was on what's his name he's an entrepreneur I think he was on is he with Rogan

or Lex Friedman and he goes that my perfect day is 12 hours of caffeine and 3 hours of alcohol I thought mine's 12 hours of caffeine 3 loads if I can drop 3 loads have 12 hours of caffeine life three loads. If I can drop three loads, have 12 hours of caffeine, life is good.

So speaking of three loads, you were talking – we were talking the other day, last episode, about, I don't know, making people laugh or something. And I was hearkening back to how I used to chastise women for laughing at your horrible things, the things you would say and the things you would send. And I would go, don't laugh at him. What is that? Where women laugh at men doing horrible, saying horrible things. If they're attracted to you,

they're attracted to you. They give you a pass because they're like that. Not that they are, are in, have intention towards you, but they're like, Oh Mike, you're so cute.

That's like, no, don't laugh at it your your wife who i am not just saying this to be your wife doesn't have any attraction to me your wife laughs at everything i do even when you're like i've almost coached her out of it i've almost coached her out of it because she sees how it how it amplifies the behavior she she listens to me and watches and then goes oh i see i'm encouraging him you already have a daughter you already have a woman in your family who doesn't put up with my shit and that's your daughter so don't try to turn your fucking wife to that side eat too she she does not put up with your shit no one puts me in my place more than goddamn Paulina. That is my favorite. So that's funny.

But before, you know, we're sort of rolling towards the end of our week here. And one thing we have not revisited that I always like kind of going over is your drug history for people. So they just sort of understand how tough it gets. And I'm sorry to make you go over your stories over and over again, but I just think they're so exemplary. And to have such a marvelous recovery is such an important thing for people to see too because people see you now and they don't connect this to where you've been. And sort of I was there when you were there.

And even I didn't know how deep you were in it at the time. You were pretty good at minimizing and bullshitting and hiding a lot of it. As most addicts are. All addicts are. All addicts are. And I buy into it to some degree or another because I'm a codependent. But I bought all the way in with you, I think, even though I could see there was real, real stuff going on. I mean I think the biggest thing I would tell people is like I started in as pedestrian a way as anyone else.

So I don't special anymore pretty quickly. By the time I was legally able to drink, I had already been in rehabilitation facilities and stuff like that. And by overdosing, you don't mean just going unconscious. You mean being resuscitated. Being resuscitated, yeah. Because I was always a stimulant addict. I really liked stimulants, meth, cocaine. I loved smoking meth. I loved smoking cocaine.

But I never fancied opiates very much. Oh, lucky. Or barbiturates. But at the end there, you were doing heroin, weren't you? Well, that's what I was going to say. When I moved to the East Coast, I would start smoking heroin with cocaine. I would speedball. Yeah. And that was manna from heaven.

I loved it so much. But that's when I started to really see, like, the immediate health problems, you know, the overdosing and whatnot. Yeah. And, you know, i genuinely wanted to die i mean i the existing was far too painful yeah to go on anymore i was just like every single time i would wake up in an ambulance or i'd wake up with someone pushing on my chest i'd be like fuck you know and and i i didn't i don't i think i acutely wanted to die because i would have killed myself. But I definitely was not happy at the fact that I had to continue going on. Yeah. So that's how dark it got, you know.

And myself. On a much lighter level myself, but also you, you and I both know the Bob Forrest of the world, the Steve Oates of the world, where it's like you may be listening to this or you may have a friend who could you could show this to who you think is so far gone there's no fucking chance and believe me there's no one that's too far gone yeah and it may not be this time it may not be the second try it may not be the fifth try but everyone has light at the end of that tunnel so to that point when you see what's going on in the streets here, particularly in Los Angeles, what are your thoughts? My thoughts are that this is an unwinnable war unless the people who move the money really start to fucking have the courage to come out from behind the curtain of, well, we're just going to build facilities for them to move into and we'll just make housing. I spoke to somebody on Saturday.

I spoke to somebody from PATH, which is the group that puts them into these housing systems. And she goes, you know, but we're finding we put them in and it's just not over then. They still go back out and they say they burn the place down. I'm like, yes, you're running a hospital. You're running a fucking psychiatric hospital without doctors and nurses. Social workers, they are wonderful. They are not trained to manage sick illness, people that are not well. You need doctors and nurses. And she looked at me like, oh, my God, like an enlightenment. You're right. Who do I contact for this?

I'm like, I gave her some referrals. I'm like, get the doctors in there. You have to do this. I had an unbelievable financial support network in that I grew up in a very affluent neighborhood with parents that love me. Parents are still together. I had friends and family all around me that were pushing me to help me in any way they could. My dad would write a check whenever I fucked up. He would write a check to put me into a recovery facility all over the country.

OK, and it was still fucking impossible to stay clean yeah and you're going to try to solve this problem of people living on the streets in feces like oh we'll just give them a place to get a nice cup of coffee and a meal and things are gonna be fine it's like no no no all the money you're spending on building facilities, take that in triple fold and build recovery facilities for people that want to get clean. That's right. With doctors, nurses, medical staff. Yeah, community-based, subacute. This is not incarceration.

It's not committing people. It is helping people. My last thing before we kind of wrap everything up, what do you make of the danny masterson thing i think it's really strange and then and then mila kunis who's the the nicest woman on earth i gotta stick up i gotta stick up for ashton kutcher mila kunis because i know where what it looks like there are people who are talking about how they've always been charitable and they've always been giving back to the community but now they're gonna write a letter in defense of this fucking guy who's a monster let us be clear just like with the bill cosby thing where like uh the patriarchy let bill cosby out of jail you know had nothing to do with whether he was guilty or not had to do with a judge had an ego and unsealed a sealed deposition yeah and that he he skated on that yeah neil akunis and ashton kutcher

had no desire to try to get him off the hook neil akunis and ashton kutcher had danny masterson's parents reach out to them and say would you write a sealed letter to the judge talking about the character of danny not whether or not he's guilty, just what you know of him as a person. We are trying to put together for our defense, this will never be released. The victims, the defendant,

no one will have any access to it. This is for the judge, for him, like you would write a recommendation to get a kid in the car. Yes. They did so not knowing at all, like it would have any bearing on what the public or the victims would think about Danny Masterson. Right.

They just wrote a letter about like what their experience was with him and what type of guy he is. Yep. Now it gets leaked to the public and their look made to look like monsters. That's not, that's not the case. That's wildly unfair in my opinion. I understand how it looks bad, but – Plus, I've known Mila Kunis since she was a teenager.

She is one of the most genuine, delightful, honest, caring – I can't say enough good about that woman. I never really knew Ashton, but the fact that he's with her tells me there's something good about him. And to be attacking a good person for trying to be helpful of a friend even though they weren't trying to get him off, they weren't trying to diminish the complaint of the victim. They were just, like you said, responding to the parents in a desperate situation to a friend. These same people that are attacking them are all about loyalty and friendship and all that too.

It's like, oh, come on. Look, and let people's history speak for itself a little bit, which is that this woman particularly, I mean Mila, you ask anybody about her and you will hear the same thing I'm telling you. Sam, who's Ashton Kutcher, by the way?

I don't know the guy. I never met the guy. But I do know people that worked on Two and a Half Men. And I do know he's balling, way more balling than people understand because of his investments in tech and stuff like that. Like Oprah balling. Yes. tech and stuff like that like like oprah ballin yes and he gives extraordinary amounts of money to charity and and his hands on and about here's another thing i heard about ashton kutcher that really like blew my mind he has a twin brother with cerebral palsy oh interesting and some i

saw some documentary some like cheesy e television documentary and one of the guys who went to high school with him said that uh ashton kutcher. And one of the guys who went to high school with him said that Ashton Kutcher would get invited to parties, and he would get invited for sleepovers when they were in fifth grade and shit. And he'd say, I'm not coming unless my brother can come with me. Yeah. Well, there you go. And please, people, consider the

source. This knee-jerk response, it's not just infantile, it's not just infantile it's disgusting just consider the source, consider the context consider what people are doing what their intent is

for God's sakes and who they are and what they've done it matters so I don't know please. Well people, listen here's another thing never more so than now do we not know shit like because we get a lot of stories, a lot of times the And here's another thing. Never more so than now do we not know shit. Like because we get a lot of stories. A lot of times the official story, it's all fucking wrong.

Yes. Because the internet, there's no kind of like barrier of entry to internet journalism. We're reading a bunch of stories. We don't really know what's going on. I have no fucking clue what's really going on. And when it applies to public figures, it's always distorted. And it's always – the other thing, it's never what the public figure themselves says. It's what somebody says they said. That's what everyone reacts to.

So just stop it. That is really a disgusting behavior. On a lower level, here's a good example. We'll finish that. Like I went with my wife, by the way. I went with my wife by the way i was with my wife and we were hanging with other celebrities and there was a very famous female celebrity there and we were walking okay at this like night out yeah and there was uh tabloids caught pictures of me and it's like fill in the blanks new hot hot boyfriend out on the town. And I was there with my wife. And because I was having this conversation with this hot celebrity female that was like, so, you know, it just goes to show you that's a very obviously a non-threatening example, but it just goes to show like how little there's truth being spewed out there.

There's fake news everywhere. There's hoaxes everywhere. They just want your eyes. They just want the advertiser money. They have no interest in the truth, none. You've got to find that for yourselves. And in pursuing the truth, you have to not have those stupid, self-righteous, knee-jerk reactions.

Mike, thank you for being with me this week. Let's figure out a way to do this on a regular basis, my friend, with calls and videos and interactions and all kinds of stuff. Let's bring back Loveline. You live. Blow up the internet. You live. All right, my friends.

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