The Adam and Dr. Drew Show - #2018 - Laila Mickelwait Exposes the Dark Side of the Internet Porn Industry

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

On this episode of The Adam and Dr. Drew Show, Adam and Dr. Drew are joined by anti-sex trafficking activist and Justice Defense Fund founder Laila Mickelwait. Laila sheds light on the dark underbelly of the internet, revealing how Pornhub—one of the most visited websites in the world—is being exploited as a platform for trafficking and exploitation. The conversation turns to the alarming reality that children as young as nine are being exposed to explicit content, and how many parents remain shockingly unaware of what their kids are actually encountering online. Laila also discusses her ongoing mission to shut down Pornhub.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Recorded live at Corolla One Studios with Adam Corolla and board certified physician and addiction medicine specialist, Dr. Drew Pinsky. You're listening to the Adam and Dr. Drew Show. Get it on, got to get it on, get it on, Dr. Drew's Board of Specialist.

And we have a special in studio guest today, Lila Mickelway, Lila, welcome. Thank you for having me. That's a pleasure You've got you're gonna tell us about her Adam. I am. Yeah. Oh, that's how we play Why can't you do things? Well, I can't you do things. Yeah, I'm sorry. All right, just go ahead I've not been provided with it. Oh, you don't have no you don't have lilas. Oh I've not been provided with it. Oh, you don't have anything.

No. Oh, you don't have Lila's, oh, you don't have her bio. Correct. Oh, I just thought they gave a bio to everybody in here. I thought so too, but not today. So I assume there was a reason for that. I'll be happy to. No, no, no.

I'll be happy to work out it. Listen, let me explain the new world order. Yeah. No world order. OK. Just stuff, not stuff. You know, I could actually introduce myself. Yeah, I know what you're about about but go ahead and do it.

Let's talk about the Justice Defense Fund and go. Yeah so I'm Lila Mickelway. I'm the founder and the CEO of the Justice Defense Fund. You have to sit here and let us fight first. How does Lila Ali spell her name? Well I think it's the same, but people pronounce it, Layla, Lai-la, Lai-la. I mean, the way you pronounce my name is Lai-la. You're Lai-la, but she spells the same as Layla. Yeah, so it just depends. You just have to ask.

I don't care, I'll respond to whatever you say. Either one. All right, sorry, go. Lai-Li's, the Justice Defense Fund is about sex trafficking. Yes, we combat online tech-facilitated trafficking, and I'm also the founder of the Trafficking Hub Global Movement to shut down PornHub and hold its executives accountable for aiding, enabling and profiting from mass sexual crime, including trafficking, child sexual abuse, rape, and all forms of

non-consensual content. Were you in the documentary about Pornhub? I was. Yes, I was. So I thought. Yeah. Yeah. How did that get received?

Yeah, I mean, it was a very popular documentary. Did you get the message across that you're trying to deliver? Well, I was kind of in the documentary Against My Will. They used publicly available content to put me... They asked me to be in the documentary, but used publicly available content to put me, they asked me to be in the documentary, but I didn't want to. I didn't feel like it actually got to the heart of the issue. Which is?

Which is the victims, which is the victims who've had their abuse immortalized online intentionally and by design by Pornhub's executives since 2007. And we started a global movement in 2020 after I discovered that the biggest porn site in the world, and just to give some context for the statistics around how big Pornhub actually was when the fight to hold them accountable began. So in 2020, Pornhub was the fifth most trafficked website in the entire world.

So they had 170 million visits a day, 62 billion visits that year, and enough content uploaded every year. It would take 169 years to watch if you put those videos back to back. Give us an example of one, two, and three websites. So you would have X videos. So Pornhub, and it's sister site,

so Pornhub is owned by a parent company. No, you said the fifth largest most visited website. I see, yeah, so that would be maybe Facebook, Google. You know, they actually had more traffic than Amazon and Netflix. That's what I'm getting, I'm trying to sort of paint the picture. Yeah, so they had more traffic than Amazon and Netflix

and they were named by researchers as the third most influential tech company on global society just behind Facebook and Google. So they are a massive household name. They were making hundreds of millions of dollars a year on free porn, on monetized free porn. They were selling 4.6 billion ad impressions on PornHub every day, monetizing the free porn content

on the site. And in the context of many, many years in the fight against trafficking and child sexual abuse, I noticed some really concerning headlines at the end of 2019. One in particular that I credit with the founding of the Trafficking Hub Movement, which was about a 15 year old girl from Florida,

who was missing for an entire year, and she was finally found when her distraught mother was tipped off by a porn hub user that he recognized her daughter on the site and she was found in 58 videos being raped and trafficked for profit. So at the time I'd said what is going on here how is the most popular porn site in the world having this kind of content on the site and I found out that all it took to upload to Pornhub was an email address. That anybody, anonymously and under 10 minutes,

could upload a video from anywhere in the world, anybody with an iPhone, and they were not verifying ID, they were not verifying consent to make sure that these are not rape or trafficking victims, and because of that, the site had actually become infested with videos of real sexual crime. And so the person that's doing this, that's making the movie and then putting it on Pornhub, is there to profit off it through a profit sharing with advertisements? I mean, I mean, I got you. Why do they do it? I put free videos up on YouTube.

Yeah. And at some point they get enough traffic. You'll get some money. Yeah. Well, the ones that are making most of the money on this site are the executives of PornHub, because this is free porn. And most of the people who are uploading were doing it for social currency. The same reason why people upload to Facebook, right? The same reason why people upload to Facebook, right? The same reason why people are uploading to Instagram. So somebody who is exploiting this underage person

and documenting this and putting it on Pornhub is doing it for social currency, not for money? Most of the videos on Pornhub were not being monetized for the uploader. They were only being monetized with ads and the profiteer was the company. Now 20% of the videos. That seems weird.

That seems really weird to me. But 20% of the videos were monetized, paid to download content, and we have cases of, for example, a 12-year-old boy from Alabama who was abused by a verified uploader named Rocky Shay Franklin and He drugged and he overpowered and he raped his 12 year old boy

And he uploaded 23 of those videos to Pornhub pay to download content in a profit sharing relationship But but 80% of the people don't get any profit from it. That was the business model I mean they get nothing they actually get nothing. Why do they from it? What do they get? That was the business model. I mean, they actually get nothing. Why do they do it? If you want to stop it, you gotta look at their motivation. So why do they do it? Yeah, well, I'm saying the same reason that people upload content for likes, for clicks,

for comments, for attention, that is why most of the people were uploading to Pornhub. So the person, this 15-year-old girl you were talking about who was gone for a year, the person that was filming that and uploading it was not getting any profit from it. The profit that was being made on the advertising, the 4.6 billion ad impressions every day, that money goes to Pornhub and its owners

and its executives. I think I'm under appreciating how much something called existential signaling does to people, which is, hey, I'm here, I exist, that people are so interested in that these days, they'll do anything to get the looks that I guess. I totally imagine they put up a crime. And still, it's bizarre that 80% of these people

are filming themselves having sex and not getting any profit from it. I mean, especially when you're dealing with crime. Crime. Yeah, why would they put up a crime? filming themselves having sex and not getting any profit. Especially when you're dealing with crime. Why would they put up a crime? Well, they were able to be anonymous. They could even use a VPN to upload and you could create an email address.

You could just create an anonymous email address. Anybody with an iPhone could upload. The other thing is they had a download button on every single video on Pornhub so that anybody could download and possess that content and then just re-upload it. They would make compilations and this included, like I said, child sexual abuse. Right now we have a class action lawsuit in Alabama and California that was certified and these class actions are on behalf of tens of thousands of child victims who were victimized on Pornhub.

And is it just Pornhub or do all the porn sites have this? So Pornhub has its sister sites. So Pornhub is owned by a parent company called MindGeek that rebranded to ILO. Is that a Canadian company? Is that what it is? It is based in Canada. So their headquarters are in Canada, but they're an international corporation. They exist. They have headquarters in Texas as well. But their main base of operations is in Canada. And they actually obtained a monopoly on the global porn industry with a $362 million loan from a hedge fund called Colbett Capital.

They actually rolled up, essentially rolled up, the online porn industry, and they own most of the world's most popular tube sites. So this would be Pornhub, YouPorn, RedTube, GayTube, XtremeTube, XTube, you go on and on. But the biggest competitors would be Xvideos and XNXX and XHamster. And they operate in the same way. So those compete with Pornhub. Yes, these are the free tube sites. Some states have outlawed access to these sites, right? All of them, or just Pornhub? Yes, so it would be any site.

So what's happening in the United States right now, this is really important because the Supreme Court just made a huge decision last week. And it's concerning access. So not only is this content kind of a free-for-all on the uploader side, but it's also a free-for-all on the uploader side But it's also a free-for-all on the consumer side so we have children Being exposed to this free porn. I mean they didn't even have an ru18 click through

You know what the average age of exposure is now well I've heard lots of kind of different statistics, but I'm hearing 12 is kind of the average age I've heard 11 for a long time. Lately I've been hearing nine. Yeah, it's getting younger and younger as people are. Isn't that crazy? Well, you know what the crazy part is for me is every time I hear about some politician

or some celebrity or some situation, someone's like, pedophile, you know, there's a whole pedophile thing going on. And I'm know, there's a whole pedophile thing going on and I'm like Is there a whole pedophile thing going on? Like what is going on? Yeah, like why is remember we talked to all those kids who were sexually abused all those years in the 90s and those kids then 60% theoretically have kind of a preoccupation with that stuff They had act out on it, but you can see how, if it's easy to access, they'd be consuming it. I get, in a weird way, I mean, it's interesting.

Let's see if we can expand this. The left, basically, if anyone on the right gets in trouble, they call them race, they just call everyone on the right racist. And the right calls everyone on the left who kind of gets in trouble a pedophile. So we just pick the two worst ones. Now, to everyone on the left who kind of gets in trouble, a pedophile. So we just picked the two worst ones. Now to people on the left,

I think being called a racist is worse than a pedophile, I think to them. But then on people on the right, being called a pedophile is worse than being called a racist. Which is weird, yes. But I don't know, I'm naive. I don't know what's going on with the sexualities. Everyone just a mess?

Everybody staring at this crazy shit? Well, they're accessing, listen, they're getting exposed at younger and younger ages as kids have devices. I get flooded with messages all the time saying, I was six years old, I was eight years old when I was first exposed. That's how you get porn addiction, that kind of exposure.

That's one of the definite byproducts of all that. Absolutely. They then get preoccupied with it. Now they're a consumer. Yeah, and so. Now the same people that got victimized by it become a consumer of it. Exactly. It's a weird thing. And if you think about the harm, I mean, imagine the fact that a child's sexual template and their understanding of sexuality is coming from exposure to sites like Pornhub that are infested with real

crimes. Do you know what Deborah So, another Canadian psychologist, she's a researcher, and her theory is, not saying it's right or wrong, so everybody don't react to this, but her theory is that some of the female to male transgender choices are fueled by seeing porn at such an early age and going, oh my God, I'm not that, I must not be a woman. Because I... And they get aversive to being a receptive partner in a sexual act and just go in a different direction. Well, I mean, one thing is true is that children do

kind of view and do, and one thing that's happening is that as children are watching violent, incest scenes... They think violence is what it's about. Well, they're acting out child on child sexual abuse is going up. Up again? And yeah, it's definitely increasing. That's the worst. And so there's a move by states in the United States to actually implement age verification laws to prevent children from accessing these sites.

These states that have outlawed... Isn't that what they're moving towards? Isn't that what they're intent is? Is that what their intent is? So it's not outlying the site, it's requiring age verification. Outlawing or outlawing? Outlawing, outlawing. They're not outlawing the content.

They are requiring age verification to get on the site. So not just a click through button, but it would be a more robust form of verification. And what PornHubub has done in 17 states in the US is they have shut themselves down in 17 states that have implemented this law. Oh, they shut themselves down. They shut themselves down in protest of the law because it's expensive for them,

because their business model relies on frictionless access, massive amounts of traffic to drive the ad sales. And so- Is it just ad sales? Don't they have identity stuff? Don't they get behavior information? Well, they're being sued in a class action right now for the exploitation of user data.

So that's another thing. They monetize user data, massive amounts of user data. That seems like they would make a lot of money. But the Supreme Court actually just, I think it was a Friday, they made a landmark decision in support of Texas's right to protect its children by implementing age verification. So Pornhub actually sued the state of Texas.

It went all the way to the Supreme Court and Pornhub lost. Oh, interesting. Yes. Who's on the good side and who's on the dark side here in terms of politicians and right, left, and Democrat, Republican? Easy to see who's bought out if you... Well, I mean, the thing that's interesting about this issue...

Who's helpful and who's fighting. Yeah, I mean, we've seen bipartisan support of these bills, so it is really not, I don't see a right and left split when it comes to the protection of children online, when it comes to victims of sex trafficking. Still though, somebody's gotta get bought out. They have so much money. Who's fighting with you?

Or fighting, who's helping, who's fighting? I mean, who's helping Pornhub, who's fighting? Yeah, I mean, interestingly, it's the big porn industry, it's the lobby groups, like there's a group called the Free Speech Coalition and they're the industry lobby group. Under the banner of free speech, there you go. They support no restriction, no regulation on the industry. But what we've seen is, across the board support from the New York Times to the New York Post, from right and

left, people coming together, Christians, atheists. Are you surprised you're getting as much support as you are? Or has it been an uphill battle and you're finally getting it? I mean, it's been amazing to see when you focus on the issue, when you focus on children, victims, and you make it about that, and you make it only about that, which is what this fight has been about. It sounds like you're getting more traction, though, on the user side, the exposure side. Well...

Is that true? The amount of traction, so let me just tell you what happened to PornHub in the last four years. So, through all of this, you know, I started a petition. We got 2.3 million signatures on the petition from every country in the world. Thousands of media pieces have been written about this. We pressured the credit card companies. They lost Visa, MasterCard, Discover, PayPal. They have been forced to take down 91% of the entire website. So they went from 56 million pieces

of content to 5.2 million pieces in 2024 in four years. And just yesterday, the owners of Pornhub said they're taking down a huge portion of the remaining 9% of the site because it was, again, unverified content where they didn't know if they were children or if they were rape victims in the videos. 27 lawsuits have been filed on behalf of hundreds of victims, again, the class actions I mentioned, and criminal charges have been brought by the Eastern hundreds of victims, again, the class actions I mentioned, and criminal charges have been brought by the Eastern District of New York against Pornhub for intentionally profiting from the sex trafficking

of 100 women in California. So it sounds like it's really making progress. Yeah, so we have made a lot of progress. How'd you get into this? Well, I mean, I've been in this for almost 20 years now. The influence of my father, he was really interested in human rights issues.

He was a surgeon, he dedicated his life to helping others. But he grew up in the Middle East and the midst of war and he was very sensitive to human rights issues. So as we grew up, this was how we bonded. We bonded over heavy topics like this. And he showed me a documentary one afternoon when I was in college about child sex trafficking in Calcutta, India.

And it really impacted me and I just said this is what I want to focus on. This summer Pluto TV is exploding with thousands of free movies. Summer of cinema is here. Feel the explosive action all summer long with movies like Gladiator, Mission Impossible, Beverly Hills Cop, Good Burger and Transformers Dark of the Moon. Bring the action with you and stream for free from all your favorite devices. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. Shop with Rakuten and you'll get it. What's it? It's the best deal. The Stream now, pay never. stack sales on top of cash back. Just start your shopping with Rakuten to save money at over 750 stores.

Join for free at rakuten.ca or download the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N, rakuten.ca. How much, first off, every time I hear sex traffic, no, when I hear human trafficking, I'm like, what year is it? Yeah, I know. What year is it? Yeah, what year is it? I know what's going on and I I guess we had a pretty wide open border here for a while Must have been a lot of stuff coming across our own border sure here, which is right in the same

Here's a question. You may not be able to answer but that's kind of curious in this world where You know we you know you may not be able to answer, but that's kind of curious in this world where, if I have a watch company, I can't cut out a picture of George Clooney's head and put my watch on his wrist and then start selling watches because I'll get sued in 10 seconds. Or spaghetti sauce. I can't put Chef something on my spaghetti sauce.

But you have all these porn stars. I was just watching a documentary on Ron Jeremy, the porn star last night, coincidentally. And you have this whole industry. And these people got paid to perform. And then it went away. And now it's all back and it's free. Now you gotta pay George Clooney, but I don't know, do we have to pay Christy Canyon? She didn't agree to be on the internet in perpetuity making money for a website that she does nothing to do with

that profits off of her like this, but yet she doesn't but they have an industry. Embedded in what you're describing is the thought bubble sort of over my head is where does this all go? Where do you want it to go? Where do you hope it goes? I mean, I want it to go to full accountability in order to deter future abusers. So pay for you or something or go away completely or how does that work? I want to see PornHub held accountable to the full extent of the law. That means full criminal prosecution.

I think the site should be shut down. I think that every victim should be paid restitution for what happened to them. And the reason is because they need that justice in order to get healing, but also to be a deterrent to future abusers because this is a risk benefit calculation for the executives that run these sites. And as soon as they see that there will be serious consequences, they'll make different decisions. They can make a lot of money on legal pornography.

They don't need to include in their business model unfettered, unregulated, that's full of illegal content. So I do wanna see full consequence for PornHub, but I do want to see age and consent verification regulation. So what that means is regulation that demands third party age and consent verification for every single person in every single video

on every website that, per terms of service, distributes user-generated porn. You know, I hate to say it, but you're also gonna have to come up with some kind of punishment for kids sharing porn. Because that's what happened with sexting. Sexting became a... an act of child pornography. And if you shared a sext from a 16 year old and you're a 16 year old, but you shared it with another 16 year old, you've committed two felonies.

You've shared something, you collected something, but it doesn't seem to apply to pornography. Well, that's the thing is there's a lot of content that is self-generated child sexual abuse material that is ending up on these sites. So, you know, one of the victims... But even sharing with other peers and things, they have to be like really deterred. Well, one in seven, so Thorne did a study, and Thorne is a child protection agency in the United States, and they found that one in seven children is sharing,

that's age nine to 12 years old, has shared a nude image or video of themselves with somebody else. Yeah, and that's a felony, even if they share it with another 14-year-old or whatever. Right, it is true. And when that 14-year-old shows it to another 14-year-old, that child is trafficked in child pornography, and that stopped a lot of it. Right. And that shows it to another 14 year old. That child is trafficked in child

pornography and that stopped a lot of it when they started prosecuting that stuff, which is terrible. Well, they need to be aware not only of the fact that it's illegal, but of the consequence of having your image immortalized online because the internet is forever. And that's what these victims say, the ones that have been assaulted and abused and the ones that even self-generated the material not knowing what would happen. Of course. There was a girl named Serena.

She was the face of a huge New York Times piece called The Children of Pornhub. And she was an innocent 13-year-old girl from Bakersfield, California, straight A student, never kissed a boy before. And a boy a year older than her convinced her to send some nude images and videos of herself, which she did, shared it with him.

He shared it with classmates. They got uploaded to Pornhub again and again, millions of views. She would beg for them to come down, and she would be hassled. They would say, prove that you're underage. Prove that you're a victim in these videos. And if she could get it down, it would just get reuploaded.

She ended up dropping out of school because she was bullied. She got addicted to drugs to try to numb theaded. She ended up dropping out of school because she was bullied. She got addicted to drugs to try to numb the pain. She tried to kill herself multiple times and ended up homeless living out of a car. And so suicide ideation rate for these victims is near 50%, those who are abused this way. Yeah, you know, the only thing I always think about

when I think about this stuff is The thing I always think about when I think about this stuff is it's going to be so ubiquitous that it'll lose some of its stigma in terms of like Kim Kardashian has a sex tape, you know what I mean? I think we're already there. It's sort of this weird thing, which is either you don't want to have herpes or you want everyone to have herpes. And when everyone has it, it's like, where are we now? Because it's crazy. It's ubiquitous.

I don't know who's going to escape this. And I'm not talking about Pornhub. I'm just talking about if you had a camera when you're 15 on your hip, you know what I mean? Like how many dick pics would be flying around? You know, it's all, I don't know how you even, it's just gonna be everywhere. Well, that's why you have to,

you need somebody like Lila sort of looking at that and coming up with deterrents. Well, they have technology now that actually you can install apps on your phone and they can prevent a child from capturing a nude image or video of themselves. They actually stop it and they don't allow it to be recorded and they don't allow it to be shared.

So we have technology created a problem but technology is also helping to solve that problem. Interesting. What's it called so people can be aware of it? Yeah, so Canopy is the company that created it. And there's numerous others out there. There's so much really good child protection technology out there. But I wanted to go to your point earlier.

You were talking about those who are in the porn industry. And what's interesting about this fight against Pornhub is that those in the porn industry hate Pornhub as well because they built their empire on pirated and stolen and copyrighted content. Well it's kind of like Napster for porn. I mean you create music or art or TV, look, whatever it is, it's an endeavor, it's artistic and it's captured, and somebody wants to watch, you know, you want to watch reruns of? Seinfeld and someone's gonna get paid for reruns of Seinfeld if somebody wants that I don't know It's our listen to the Beatles songs or whatever whatever it is. It's you get paid

Yeah, I think a lot of times in the porn industry they sign contracts where they get paid once Yeah, that's a film and then they don't get residuals. Right? Yeah, I understand that, but this is a new paradigm because this didn't exist and you couldn't have anticipated this existing, you know? And I think if something, I think if somebody goes, look, nowadays you go in and do something, you go sign this thing and they go, you know, OK, so it means we can use this on the internet. We can use it in we can use it in terrestrial radio. We can use it. And you go, yeah, I understand that. But if there's something that doesn't exist until 20 years from now, then you reuse it.

I think we can go back and revisit that contract. We're going to have another problem with this whole sort of phenomenology you're describing when it comes to AI you know because it didn't exist and so what is my AI image gonna be what control will I have over that? I'll control that. Well now they've taken down act was passed and that will you know make it illegal to upload deep fakes. Yeah I mean people I mean look we have Fred Astaire danced with a mop 20 years ago in a commercial, and the Astaire estate got paid,

presumably, for his image in like this to dance with a mop. So at some point, there's gonna be Robert De Niro movies when he's 32 that are made 50 years from now. So the De Niro estate is gonna have to get paid for that. And yeah, I would argue that these old porn stars and whoever produced this stuff should be profit sharing with whoever's showing their film now on the internet. It's weird. Yeah. I mean most of the content today on these free sites though

is you know it's not the studio produced. It's all just somebody with an iPhone. It's literally anybody with an iPhone. This is what used to require a studio, right? This is in my hand now. Drew's holding his phone up, everyone. And that is why. There's one thing that nobody ever does. No, they don't. No, everyone who goes, everyone who come on will go, you know what's changed your world? This.

And I'll go, okay, it's a podcast. So I can say the phone. But they don't. Sorry, go ahead. No, I'm just saying that we're in a new era where anybody with an iPhone can become a pornographer and that's why we need to update our policy. So they had USC 2257 since 1988 for Brick and Mortar Studio

Produce Porn, where you had to show an ID in order to be in a professional porn film. And we need to update those laws to require the same standard for all content that's being distributed online. I wonder if this is going to bleed over to YouTube, whatever regulations come to bear on this, you know what I mean?

Because YouTube's model is the same thing. Well, as far as the user side, we're seeing a lot of effort to regulate even sites, social sites, for kids, because we understand that even those are harmful for children. So we're seeing in Australia, they're trying to limit social media access to under 16s And but as far as online pornography, you know

Any site that's distributing that content should make sure that they are distributing it to adults and that children cannot access It's simple pretty common sense. We're just going to go back to sort of like Amish lifestyle Start churning butter and raising barns and stuff. We're just to go back to sort of like Amish lifestyle there. We're just, start churning butter and raising barns and stuff. We just have to go back. Yeah, I, cause it's just, we're gonna, you know, the technology and the laws and the legislation is always chasing

whatever this is, right? And it's, you know, maybe it's five years behind, maybe it's 10 years behind, but it's always gonna be chasing. Like at a certain point, I tell people all the time, and I would tell this to any young person, the fast food industry, it's 24-7, it's drive-through, and it's practically free.

You're not gonna beat it. You're gonna have to just regulate yourself. You're gonna have to go somewhere and do push-ups and eat an avocado. You cannot, if you go in, you're in. It's too ubiquitous. I mean, we could put a thing on your phone that says you can't use Grubhub after midnight

or something like that, But it's so everywhere that if I'm talking to a young person, I'd be like, there's a million things I can download on your phone or what have you. But at a certain point, much like eating Jack of the Box tacos, you're just gonna have to be in charge of your own temple here. Well, that's where children need to learn about consumption and healthy consumption and how, and they need help with that. We need to hear about how damaging it is too. Because the parents don't really, really get it. Yeah, I think a lot of children, I mean, sorry,

a lot of parents are naive. They want to be in denial about what their kids are consuming online. And I think we need a dose of reality for parents to understand what their kids are growing up on. It's really important what you're doing. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Give her a plug, would you? All right. Lila Micklewaite, the website is Lila, L-A-I-L-A. Is it.micklewage? Actually, I would prefer people to go to my organization, justicedefensefund.org. Okay, justicedefensefund.org. And support? Yeah, you can sign the petition. People are still signing that petition every day. We're going to keep up the fight until justice is fully served for Pornhub and its victims. It's going to be an interesting...

And so we see policy change. How many years? You've been at it for 20 years? Well, I've been in the fight against trafficking for 20 years, but the fight to hold PornHub and its victims. It's gonna be an interesting change. How many years, you've been at it for 20 years? Well, I've been in the fight against trafficking for 20 years, but the fight to hold PornHub accountable has been since 2020. So we're about five years in, and we've made a lot of progress, but we still have a ways to go.

Well, it's who's getting it done these days. I mean, it's basically the unsolved serial killers, motivated mom at home on the computer. She's the one who, oh there's Drew. She's the one who busts them. And I think it's the same, this is concerned people doing it for themselves and creating this. Thanks Lila.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for all the good work. Thank you for caring about this issue. Yes, you can go to adamcroll.com for all my live shows. What do you got Drew? Drue.com, it's all there. So, until next time, it's Adam for Drew and Lila saying, mahalo.

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