The Adam and Dr. Drew Show - Classic #167: Brian Koppelman Pt. 2

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

August 6, 2014 - Screenwriter Brian Koppelman joins Adam & Drew in studio for a discussion about a variety of topics including Drew’s hosting method on his HLN show, Brian’s screenwriting workshops, and how to know when the big moments in your life are upon you.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Enjoy this second part of our interview with Brian Koppelman. We talk about my HLN program, Brian's screenwriting workshops, and when to know or how to know the big moments in your life are upon you. Brian has had great success. He's, of course, the brains behind the show Billions, and he is a very interesting dude. And a good interview. Enjoy this episode from 2014, number 167, with Brian Koppelman. He's also Puss, and he doesn't want to get any shit from anybody. And the reason he will lock antlers with me is he'll lock antlers with me when I come up with a topic that is so-called, you know, racially charged or insensitive or whatever.

He'll just ride the middle of that fence because he hates a negative tweet so badly that he's basically been forced into the same space that 96% of people that have a microphone, have a keyboard, or have a – television camera perch in front of them, which is, I don't want to get shit. So when something happens out there, no matter how mundane it is, I'm going to act wildly outraged. I will act outrage. So if a guy who's early onset Alzheimer's says something to his whore girlfriend about the blacks, I'm going to sit there and there'll be no difference between that and whatever's going on in Darfur, in terms of my moral indignation. So I'll just be morally outraged at everything all the time, and then I'll be in the happy camp of likable people who are outraged over everything all the time. And then everyone will like me, and then I won't get any shit.

But then this is great where I now talk about Julie's not here. But then the guy who can do that and do it as when he wants, when you do as articulately and intelligently, as powerfully, then when people on his show say things that it's clear he knows to be. really absurd and in fact only grandstanding or only self-aggrandizing or only to generate a response sometimes

and some other guests will actually say like wait a second that's ridiculous and you want as a viewer and more than that as a long is what I say yes the ratings but if you're I think you're looking at it in a micro way when in fact what you have and what you bring to the show and what you undervalue about yourself is

you bring your own 30 years of doing this and you bring people who are there because they're interested in how you're processing this and then by withholding that you're actually not using the currency you've built up all these years you all what you're doing there's something to that yes what what i always say is either be on the beach where it's nice and safe or be out beyond the breakers where the waters come you're getting caught a little bit in between which is to say you know what what What congenial talk show hosts do is they literally host, they don't weigh in with their,

Ryan Seacrest doesn't weigh in with any opinions and makes a ton of money. And it's smart. And by the way, keeps his fucking trap shut because he sure's fuck not going to come walking out of the ivy and have somebody ask him about what's going on in the Gaza Strip. And he goes, well, hold on. You got 10 minutes? Because let me give you my take.

No, the fuck, he's not going to give you his take, because whatever's take is, whose ever side he falls on, he's going to get pummeled, and he's going to lose his mantles, Mr. Congeniality, and he understands what it is. Now, Howard Stern and other people

have made a mint going past the breakers and giving their opinion on everything and not wanting to be on the beach or in the middle because that's how they make their dough, saying they make their bones saying the controversial things and getting into stuff, Now they've come.

You, I feel, Drew, sometimes are just stuck in the middle, which is if you want to, the problem with pushing out into the deeper water, boy, do I paint a picture. It's so beautiful. It's scary. It is scary because you're getting further from shore, but shore is nowhere. That's just fat people with sand in their crack and a sunburn. You want to get out there, but it feels like, I'm going to keep one foot on the sand and one foot out in the ocean. You're right. And you could.

You have the horsepower intellectually, and you also have the interest. Your interests are much more passionate than being a traffic cop or Ryan Seacrest. Maybe Ryan Seacrest doesn't know anything about what's going on in the Middle East. You have strong feelings about it. You could swim out into the deeper waters where it was calmer. Unfortunately, it's scary because you're swimming away from shore, and you will get attacked. Yeah, there'll be a shark. out there.

Yeah. Yeah, there'll be a shark or two, which, by the way, the shark has styrofoam teeth. Powerful. Dig. Meaning it's scary. It's swimming at you. You see the dorsal fin coming, but it never does anything. It never, it's all the bad tweets, all the, oh, here's what he did.

What's it amount to? How many shitty things have I had about me in the last five years? How many? Oh, he's a racist. This homophobic. All I do is fucking make money. Okay, hold a second. A couple things.

Thank you. Interesting we have this conversation now because I have to film a pilot where I'm trying to change things in this direction. Interesting. B, I have become more tolerant of the negative stuff. And so I feel like I have been thinking about this lately, which is fascinating. I'm a role I've played in bringing this all on myself this morning. But here's the thing. In my world, these things do have the styrofoam teeth.

No, no, no. They have fucking razor sharp teeth. I know you. No, you say that. No, no, no. In fact, I'm another guy in my podcast name Ryan Holloway, who does it, wrote a book. Ryan and our friends are pals.

Holiday, ready. He wrote a book called Trust an obstacle. And the obstacle is the way. Wonderful guy. Ryan's a great dude. But the trustee I'm lying is the one that spoke to, well, they both spoke to me, but the trust of them lying is about how bullshit on the internet becomes factual. And it starts getting reported by legitimate, in quotes, websites and blogs and legitimate

new days. But here's the problem. As soon as that happens, I hear from. my professional societies and that means that the fucking world is coming down around you know like those six human needs certainty uncertainty significance all that yeah the need for certain it's fear i mean if you were giving advice to somebody you say you don't make any you say you don't make any money doing your practice right so what do you what do you okay so what do you need those he likes helping people because they will take away my status as a they will not they will not yes they will not they will

not you this is I don't like to go to Philadelphia every three months and fucking get in front of an ethics committee by higher attorneys that I believe that they're traconian and ridiculous but you're making a leap I don't have to I've been doing that all year listen you're making a leap aren't you about I mean in a way is this what I mean I had no intention of getting a yeah you're making a leap you're making a leap uh to the worst case scenario when all Adam is saying or

it doesn't keep happening I would just say HLN hasn't figured out of out how to have a hit show on their whole network. And if you, because you've had a following, you're undervaluing your own capacity to build an audience by saying, I'm going to be milk toast and let the show do that. And you, if you decided to, could fucking take it and actually become the face of that network, by they'd follow you. The network is still true. Go watch that movie again.

The moment the thing ticks up, they're all over you. And they're going, oh, all along, we want to Drew to have a clear, voice. They don't. It would be their fucking idea. I will take this all to heart and I don't know how it's going to play up, but I promise you. I'll listen. It's only because I'll watch closely for six months because, you know, the first thing you have to do is get e-voice. That's what I need to get E-voice. Yes. Here's what you do. If for all your business calls, it's hard to look professional to get anything done. E-voice is a better way to clank with your clients. Get your own toll-free number. It's a professional greeting. Dial by name directory more. Transform any phone into a business

phone. Customer calls are sent wherever you are, home office, beach, bar. Ah, yeah. Dungeon. The two. Right now, my listeners, our listeners, can try Evoice free, three days. Again, a free offering. How do we do that? I don't know.

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Enter promo code, Ace, for an additional $5 off per month. Forever. That's evoice.com, promo code Ace A-C-E. All right. Let me. Let me put a cap on this. By the Ryan Holiday says you changed his entire life. You know that. It's crazy. He says you changed. You made that guy's the most successful, but you changed his whole life. Which is crazy just by telling him to read Epictetus. I know you read that all the time, yeah. One of the Stoics. And then he wrote a book about it.

Wait, whose life did you change? Nobody's bad. You wouldn't believe it anyway. Ryan Holiday, at 23 years old, became the head of all marketing. He dropped out of college, became the head of all marketing for American Apparel. And it all started for him when he was 19 years old, met Dr. Drew. Drew told him to read a book. He read the book and changed his entire life. And he has written three bestsellers.

He's an incredibly accomplished young man. He's still in his 20s. He's going to be his afternoon to meet him. And he goes around everywhere saying, what a great guy. Yeah, he's a great guy. Well, it takes a hero to tell someone to read someone else's book. Drew is too much. I told me to read your book, transient enough.

You're right with that? I'm saying you're here. What do you mean? You know, I have this podcast called The Moment that's a grant one, the Grantland Network that I do. And iTunes. And you can get on iTunes. And the whole premise of the podcast is I'm fascinated by how people who accomplish remarkable things process the big moments in their lives, the inflection points.

Well, you know, a lot of this stuff, which is it's always about fear. And then how do you deal with, it's what you guys talk about all the time with callers. It's when you have a huge moment either positive or negative. People return to stasis. Regular people try to return to stasis. And people who accomplish remarkable things, sometimes. can push to the next level. That's the inquiry I'm on. That's what I'm interested in. I have found there you found there's usually a moment. That's the point in a moment.

That's the podcast is called the moment. Okay. And for me, what I have found, so those moments have changed. I've studied those moments for changes. I'm interested in what gets people sober. Yes. And usually it will have been a novel relationship. Like they will start seeing themselves with a new pair of glasses. Somebody that they wouldn't normally hang out with, they start hanging out with and they get sort of an intimate connection with. And they see themselves. differently, and then they see themselves more realistically, and then they change what they can. Yeah, or sometimes what surprised me, because I think my narrative would have been more thinking

that all the time, is that some of the people actually refuse to stop and look at themselves and just have developed an engine like Adams, which is to just keep moving forward. Yes, that's the other thing. To the thing you always talk about, which is like, I'm just going to move forward and get this. I'm going to prepare and work and go. Well, let him finish his fucking sentence. No, go ahead, Drew. No, I'm talking a funny relationship to failure because there's no failure then.

It's just moving. It's moving. It's just learning, moving. The rest of us might be crushed or might think they're all staring at me now. Time to turn back. If it's been great. Whereas people like you, Adam, have the ability somehow to note it. Okay, I note that they're all looking at me now, but I'm not going to let that change how I behave.

Well, thank you. Speaking of the moment, I've always said, look, you don't have to be great every day. There's a couple of moments where you do have to put it together. And then you have to realize where those moments are. They're called first dates. They're called job interviews. Look, we've all been married for a long time. We can have an off day on a Wednesday. There's no problem. We're not going to get divorced because we come home in a bad mood and lock ourselves in our office and, you know, watch Sports Center. But the first date, you better have a good first date or there's no second date. There's your life, if you really look at it and because the stuff kind of takes off from those moments sort of spreads like an STD. It's not just that moment. It's all the moments your partner slept with before those moments. Meaning, I am a guy who is not long on preparation, and I'm not the world's most diligent guy. But when I flew back from New York so that you and I could do our fake little love line run through back on stage 9 over in Hollywood Center Studios and literally set up a card table with us and twofold.

holding chairs and put a phone that wasn't hooked up to anything on top of it and have the producers behind a piece of duveteen 10 feet away going, hi, I'm Tammy and I'm calling from Tampa and I have a question. I realized for that 30 minutes, I better fucking show up. And so I showed up for that 30 minutes and then I got the job. Now, episode 149 of the job that I got, I may not have showed up the same way i didn't i wasn't drunk and i didn't mail it in but i certainly once i got the gig and i've always sort of said to people look first thing you'd better do is you better recognize what those moments are whether it's a cop telling you to step out of the car that's your moment to fucking get your shit together yeah i call those moments uh like inflection

points uh and it comes from you know poker anytime where there is an inflection point where things you go one or another but the only thing and it's the only thing and it's It's like the story you tell about, you can not tell I've been listening to you for a really long time, but about when you first got those radio shots, how you would prepare to go on the radio and do those little five-minute things. I do Kevin and Bean, now I get to cut you off, but Drew doesn't. But here's the deal. He didn't feel cut off by you. I do Kevin and Bean weekly to this day. I was just setting you up.

That's all. And I do this week in rage. I do three things. Okay. You phone it in now, what you're saying. Well, literally phoned it in. No, no. Drew, why, what?

Just relax. Why do you have to jump ahead and finish every fucking story? I don't know. What is that impulse? Let's take a break and talk about it. What is that impulse? And how many times have I brought that up to you? Every show, every other show, why jump ahead?

All right. What is that neuroses? Like, I mean, I know it's uncomfortable for you, but why is it? It's just participating in conversation. It's not participating in conversation. If somebody said, let me tell you about this weekend, I ran in a track meet, I ran the 500K, and then you just jumped in and went, and you won. Anyway, let's order lunch. That's not participating.

Participating is, yes, tell me, back and forth. Why is the inertia to jump ahead and finish everyone's story? What is that impulse? I don't know, but it may go with, I've got a weird. I know it's uncomfortable, but it's like you want to push it along. That wasn't what just happened, but I do do that. It is. You do it every time.

It wasn't what just happened. But as long as we're... No, it is what happened. No, he just told it this time you told the joke, but he said, phone it in because he phones it. I think it was a pun. No, no, I phoned it in before. He knew where I was going. No, I didn't know.

I was just sort of commenting on phoning it in. You knew Rob's going with the story. But I do do that. And so let me tell you what it hooks up within my head. And you did just do it, Drew. All right, so fine. No, don't say fine. You did it.

You heard, please, you're a screenwriter, Brian. You knew, everyone knew where this story was going. I did. And you jumped ahead and finished it where you were going. But the point is that you still. How come you finished it if you had no idea? I didn't. I was just commenting on the phone-at-in thing.

I was just doing a pun on phone-it-in. Adam, how much work did you do in the old days when you did those first few, if I can say? Forgetting now, and the old days when it mattered, how much did you prepare and know you were going to nail it? that's participating in a conversation no no that was jumping ahead so that's not jumping ahead that's that's finished we were in unison yeah but let me let me just tell you let me finish my evaluation of hold on we need to take a quick break and then we'll get back to yelling at each other right after this this is an ad by better help here's the thing we've all done it you go the barber your barista, your strangers in a restroom,

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This September, CBS hits are streaming free on Pluto TV. I'm coming in hot. For this month only, you can watch full seasons of the CBS shows you love from the courtroom drama of Madlock to the heroics of fire country go back to where it all began in NCIS origins or watch the hilarious hauntings of ghosts all for free full seasons of the CBS shows you love this month only on Pluto TV stream now pay never All right. What are you shaking head for, Gary? I feel your pain. You know what I'm talking about.

I was sympathizing with you. Thank you. Jump's ahead. So here's every story. So here's what it hooks up with my head. I can't stand. It drives me somehow weirdly to distraction when I've like really enjoyed a film or something. And I, and the story is intriguing with a lot of twists.

and turns, I can't stand going in with somebody and they don't know the story or something. It's some weird... Because you're excited for them to see it. It's actually excitement. Yes. It's excitement that manifests in a way that he finds annoying after 20 years. Exactly. No, it's not that. There's got to be something worse about it. I'm trying to help.

I appreciate you. It's a neurosis. But I don't know why I don't know where it comes from. I really don't. And if you get any insight, please share it with me. It doesn't come from a light place. It comes from a dark place. I've given you some insight. Shut up. As a huge fan of this show, though, what I'd want to know if I were listening walking through Central Park, which is how I listen is the difference is in the old days when you would call in.

Oh, thank you. Okay. I would write the bits down the night before. Right. I would craft them all day. I would even so much before the Internet, when I was looking for a specific name, as you know, specific is always good. And you don't want to say a box of cookies. You want to say a box of Pecan Sandy's.

That's how, that's specific. I literally get my car, drive up the hill and go to the Safeway, walk down the bakery aisle and find the right cereal because there's no Google and write it down. And then, because I have difficulty reading, would read it out loud multiple, multiple times so that 7.30 the next morning, when I phoned it in, I had read this script a million times out loud. because I knew that I was, all I had to do is somewhere in the first 10 times I called Kevin a Bean for them to hang up the phone, look at Jimmy Kimmel and go, I give it a C-minus. And then next week, when it came time to them going, do you want Mr. Bircham to call in?

I don't know what's on the schedule. I knew. I knew the first one, for sure, there would be no second date. I knew the second, third one, but even into the 10th. Now, I knew once I got to 25, I could do a. or C minus in there because I'd had the 25 before me. Now I do Kevin and Bean, and a lot of this is experience and repetition, which I've earned, which I can own, which I rely upon.

But now when I do Kevin and Bean, I literally, they say, call in at 835. I get up at 820, I walk over to the computer, and I take a look at the list of 20 things, the weak and rage topics that Mike Lynch has gathered from the podcast and just sent me, I comb through them, I go, nah, I don't like that one, I already did that one. I get three, I write them down, and it's just pure beat form on a piece of paper, and then I completely wing it. Now, it's fine, because I have the experience of doing it, but prep time was a day and a half versus nine minutes.

Why your story is so great, and what I think people misunderstand sometimes, because I do this thing on Vine, which is I do these things called six-second screenwriting lessons because I hate and get enraged by the frauds who hold themselves out as experts in these things and try to bilk people out of money. Right. And like I did

one the other day, it was a Vine editor's picked out 11 million hits. Wow. Which is incredible. That is. And a lot of the comments are amazing. You're an old man. You have a woodhead. Get the fuck off Vine. It's crazy. Sure. And then a bunch of people who loved... I did a lot of that. Thanks Adam. But, but

people sometimes want to land on one of these two polls, which is, hey, you can accomplish anything, or you could never do it, be realistic. And the truth is, you can be a dreamer and go after what seems to be an impossible thing. But people leave out the part that you illustrate, which is you were a dyslexic kid. You couldn't read. You just casually when it couldn't read. It's that if you want to set a goal like that, the amount of work you have to do is extraordinary. It's what Penn Gillette always talks about, about how he'll rehearse something and practice it in amount of times that nobody else would to make it look effortless. In our society, people get confused, and so they either give it up because they think, oh, my parents didn't accomplish anything, I can't.

Or they give like a half-assed effort at something and then think, oh, they didn't appreciate it from our genius. It's like you had to have all the talent hidden in you that a lot of people missed along the way. and then something clicked in you and you were like, no, I'm just going to work hard of it, everybody else and find a way to get there. And it's those two things

when they come together that lead to people becoming successful. I agree. I like your point about the sort of polarization of, you know, we get the,

you can accomplish anything you dream, you know, or you believe in your heart, you know, like, hey, hey, fat chick who wants to be a model, no, we should not be pedaling

that dream to you. It's not a realistic dream. On the other hand, the other part, the other poll is, oh, it'll never happen. That's just for other people. It's who you know. It's all about luck. It's shouldn't. The rally's always somewhere. It's always somewhere in between. To me, it's like, I think of this word permission, which is, people think, you can give that, that woman could give herself permission to chase that. But don't just give yourself permission without knowing that means you have to do a whole bunch of insane stuff to make it have, give yourself a chance. I mean, put it, I'll put it to you

this way, pure and simple. And, Brian, you can tell me as somebody does it professionally. You know, people always talk about, is this guy funny? Is he the funniest? Do you know anyone funnier? Who's funnier? And I'm always like, listen, the deaf rat guy is funnier than Jay Leno.

In my opinion, that doesn't mean shit. Everyone wants to talk about everyone's vertical leap or what their 40 time is. I don't care how blessed you are. You've got to get the rubber to the road. I always tell people, and it's weird, it's on my mind because I'm going to throw my Paul Newman car on a dino.

The thing is this. I'm going to check. It's not how much horsepower that engine makes. It's what do you get to the rear wheels. Great point. You can have a thousand horsepower supercharged, blown, nitrous injected engine. If you only get eight horsepower, 25 horsepower to the rear wheels, you got to slug. it's the rear wheel

I don't care what the engine is putting out everyone is focused on this guy's a genius this guy's a comedic genius this guy's brilliant no no what is he getting to the rear wheels that's what you're trying to say to my son out there well let me there's one other thing I was just thinking of your son his son's heading off to college

and there's something that I have found was really important to me and I've seen each of my kids go through it and I was grateful when they went through it and it changed them which was and this goes to your point of the hard work part and this is almost never spoken about. Let's see if it resonates for you guys.

There's something to overcoming at some point in your life what appears to be an insurmountable task. Yes. Like something that seems insurmountable. We talk about this all the time. And you do it. It's brilliant point. It gives you a confidence and a source of judgment that nothing else does.

And I've watched my kids go through this. And one of them not as, they've all gone through it in some fashion. and it's like they were now they're ready now they're transformed now they're doing a really hard thing i mean my daughter is as smart as my son who's um you know going over an excellent he's a very very bright person but uh she's dyslexic and so i've been watching her having to overcome that now we caught it earlier than you guys i'm not dyslexic i'm stupid i mean that's yeah but in spite of that you over at some point you transcended but things came really easily i'll tell you like things came really easily for my son for a long time because like the

you know just the facility for stuff the horse power he's got the horse power but our concern as parents was uh well if things always come easy from how is he ever going to know how to really work so at seven I think seventh or eighth grade we said you have to do something incredibly hard and he started doing Brazilian jiu jutsu with grownups

and we said you can't quit it you pick something he picked that you can't quit and he did it for years and years four nights a week Brazilian jiu jihitsu getting thrown all around choked out dealing with that stuff And it's what you talk about, about sports, came out of that experience with the knowledge that he could grind. You ask him now, he'll never talk about that he's bright.

He'll say, I can grind harder. I can grind because I sat there and learned how to get choked out and not cry and keep going. And I mean, hold on. One quick question. One less point. In our culture, it goes down as don't be afraid of failure and learning failure. It's not that. It's important.

But this business of doing something that you just looked, I remember one point in my lap, I saw a brick wall that went to a infinity. And I thought to myself, well, just start one brick at a time. I'm just climbing that wall. Yes. It's all of a sudden you're at the top of that wall. All right. I will say this simply and then we have to wrap it up. I always tell people you have to know what it feels like to do something that, meaning, look, Drew, you're a strong, very fit man. You can't surf for shit. Why can't you surf? your legs aren't strong enough, because you can't paddle hard enough? No, you don't know what it feels like. They know what it feels like.

And I tell my wife all the time, she goes, how do you make a documentary? I go, you make a documentary. And then when you're done with the documentary, you know, you're not any taller, your dick's not any wider, you're not any smarter, you just know what it's like to make a documentary. And then when somebody says, hey, you want to make another documentary? You go, why not? that's the part that's when we talk about the sort of cycle of poverty it's not really the cycle of poverty it's this it's the negative cycle of not having the experience i know what that experience is i know what

it's like to write a book make a movie make an independent movie make a documentary every time i do one they all get easier and then they all become why not i just signed to do my fourth book my first book I thought holy shit how many words a hundred thousand words this time I went oh fuck we'll knock this thing out no problem I'm not any smarter I'm not any anything

I have no more IQ points I simply have the experience of doing it we don't talk about that we just talk about have the courage to go forward or don't quit any no no it's you you must gain this I know we have to go I have just one last point which I want to make because it's something you said before about those big moments. The only thing I would disagree about or ask about is that first date, yes, you have to

get yourself ready and you have to be great. But I think that a lot of people tell the narrative their lives, I blew it when I had the shot. And I don't think that's true. If you really learn from it, not in a bullshit way. Right. If you really learn from it, really take account of who you are and what you did that fucked up, you can put yourself in a position to win the next time. I love that point. And something else I love Tommy John where. These guys... Speaking of experience. The experience of wearing this stuff, man.

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That's me. Breathable fabric. It never shrinks. You never get the bacon neck. Listen, have you guys got this stuff home yet? I've got it on. It's amazing. I want to throw away all the shit that I had before this.

I'm angry at Haynes and Michael Jordan. Yeah. I talk more about, but I got a class section lost it. Unbelievably good. Tommyjohnware.com, you experiencing life-changing comfort. Enter the promo code, Adam. Get 20% off your first order. That's Tommyjohnware.com.

promo code Adam for 20% off. Us fighting the patent trolls. Oh, boy. Thank you so much. It's working. They hate it, and they hate us because of you. You guys are making it work. So click through Amazon.

It will not cost you a penny, and you're buying your back-to-school supplies or Tommy John Ware, whatever it is, will wet our beak. The money goes to fight the trolls, and thank you in advance. Las Vegas doing a show coming up in Treasure Island, August 29. My book, you can send the jacket in. We'll sign that and everything else. also Thursday yes I should say Drew's schedule is crazy my schedule is crazy yeah and so for a few weeks we're just going to do a single Thursday show so instead of twice a week we'll do once a week for a couple of weeks you're traveling I'm doing catch a contractor okay but we will we will stay with

it and then we'll go back to the bi-weekly format in just a few short weeks All right, Brian Copleman, the podcast, The Moment with Brian Copleman, also website, Brian Copleman, K-O-P-P-E-L-M-A-N.com. Thank you so much for coming in, Brian. Listen, when you begged me to be a guest, it was my pleasure. That's right. To lend my talents to the show. So, until next time, it's Adam Croll for Brian Copleman. Dr. Drew, Chris Max, a Pat, and Gary Hifthard.

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